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OK

heres the matches first emma and jean duke it out in the astral plain

then mind battle

then there young fight ( Stepford Cuckoos vs rachel summers)

then its the physical fight who is fittiest out them



who ever wins claims the phionex force

If the fight is on the astral plane then I would have to give it to Jean because she has more experience in this type of battle, though Emma is downright vicious and more creative with her powers.

I’m not sure who is doing the physical fight but that would be Emma all the way and I think Rachel could take Cuckoos physically and mentally if she is ticked off enough.

I hate to do this, because Emma is my favourite character but since Jean and the Phoenix are one in the same, this is more of a butcherin' then a battle.
If they fought in a comic I would argue if done right Emma does have a chance of winning. However this forum decides battles on feats and Emma's recent telepathic feats are pathetic for a first order telepath.(Sucks that they watered down her telepathy) Jean on the other hand, well her Omega Potential + 15 years training in the future advantage makes her win this match.

I don't like Rachel that much, but I would think Five Cuckoos stomp Rachel on the Astral Plane.

In the Physical Fight, I'm not sure(No powers right?), I would be inclined to say Emma because she's viscous however her most recent feat in a physical fight was in New X-Men #27. And she got taken down by a human women while in her diamond form.(She's suppose to have augemented strength in this form. I think she's a level 5 in the Marvel Handbook) The women then used a vibranium knife to cut through Emma's diamond form and blood gushed out. So basically they watered down that power too because before her whole body turned to diamond and nothing could physically harm her.(Except for the Diamond Bullet in the Forehead due to the flaw Mrs Nova made)

As for best personality and hottest, it's got to be Emma.

Phoenix potential or not Emma is not of par with Jean telepathically, like when she evicted her from her body in order to save her own life during the sentinel attack on the HellFire Club. Emma being vicious means nothing, she is just more likely to have next to no restraint when using her powers on non-telepaths, this is a telepathic battle, Jean will not hold back, plus she can't stand the *****. As far as fighting, I've seen Emma deck Banshee (in his civvies) and I've seen Jean deck a Shockwave Rider of the neo (fully armored). If emma gets to use her diamond form then Jean should be able to use her telekinesis if only to augment her strength and generated a skin tight tk shield to level the playing field.
The Cuckoos are even less experienced in the use of telepathic ability than Rachel, don't get me wrong they are good, but she has a lot more practice and has also learned a trick or two from their mentor. Even with their supermind they can't produce the kind of raw power Rachel can, unless they are on kick and connect to Cerebra at the same time.
Jean is hotter, her beauty is natural Emma is a bleach blond ex-troll face who has had $20,000 worth of surgery on her nose alone.

Originally posted by LordKaos
Phoenix potential or not Emma is not of par with Jean telepathically, like when she evicted her from her body in order to save her own life during the sentinel attack on the HellFire Club. Emma being vicious means nothing, she is just more likely to have next to no restraint when using her powers on non-telepaths, this is a telepathic battle, Jean will not hold back, plus she can't stand the *****. As far as fighting, I've seen Emma deck Banshee (in his civvies) and I've seen Jean deck a Shockwave Rider of the neo (fully armored). If emma gets to use her diamond form then Jean should be able to use her telekinesis if only to augment her strength and generated a skin tight tk shield to level the playing field.
The Cuckoos are even less experienced in the use of telepathic ability than Rachel, don't get me wrong they are good, but she has a lot more practice and has also learned a trick or two from their mentor. Even with their supermind they can't produce the kind of raw power Rachel can, unless they are on kick and connect to Cerebra at the same time.
Jean is hotter, her beauty is natural Emma is a bleach blond ex-troll face who has had $20,000 worth of surgery on her nose alone.

Oooh Cold... I still say Emma is way hotter then that sacred corpse.
My Emma fanboyism only strengthens my Jean hatred...

u guys do realise in this match theres o phionex force in jean
the physical fight is a match of no powers and welll thats it

I do realise that, that's why i gave examples of Jean without using Phoenix, astral plane/telepathy Emma has no wins, physical remains to be seen.

Originally posted by LordKaos
I do realise that, that's why i gave examples of Jean without using Phoenix, astral plane/telepathy Emma has no wins, physical remains to be seen.

Actually didn't those events happen after Jean realised part of her Phoenix Potential? Meaning if this fight is Jean pre-realisation then it'd be Emma vs inexperienced Jean Grey.

This one:

Scan is courtesy of Batdude
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=6706444

I'd say Emma could take inexperienced Jean Grey in an Astral Battle.

Originally posted by ALEMASTER
who ever wins claims the phionex force

The readers win this one

i think this is up until the events of New X-Men/Endsong, up until then Jean was a skilled fighter, physically and astrally. When she had just tp, she needed to learn to fight, and did so pretty well, and shes an even better astral fighter

Those events where after the Phoenix saga, and I agree totally that there is no such thing as Jean without Phoenix, and even before the Phoenix saga that was established in classica xmen. Before the Phoenix saga Jean's telepathy had just resurfaced and Xaiver had been training her to control telepathy even when he had them locked up. Her telekinesis developed after she had her first telepathic experience, she didn't become telekinetic until she was 13, she was 11 when her telepathy surfaced and Xavier was teaching her to cope with telepathy first.

Originally posted by LordKaos
Those events where after the Phoenix saga, and I agree totally that there is no such thing as Jean without Phoenix, and even before the Phoenix saga that was established in classica xmen. Before the Phoenix saga Jean's telepathy had just resurfaced and Xaiver had been training her to control telepathy even when he had them locked up. Her telekinesis developed after she had her first telepathic experience, she didn't become telekinetic until she was 13, she was 11 when her telepathy surfaced and Xavier was teaching her to cope with telepathy first.

True, but to give some credit to Emma here, Jean didn't evict her mind from her body. Emma forced herself into a Psychic Coma once the Sentinels attacked that's how she saved herself and managed to survive lingering between life and death. Therefore Jean basically possesed a lifeless body. The telekinesis was a bit bizzare though...I don't get how Jean transfered her genes over to Emma, unless Jean somehow tapped into Emma's latent abilities. In Generation X aswell I think Emma uses TK, quite strange.

I think Emma would have been able to take that Jean version aswell in a Astral Battle. She was a beast went it came to telepathy in those times.(Sucks that they watered down her powers).
Check it out:

http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/8270/uncannyxmen281078dx.jpg

Exodus did something similar, but it was far worse and well implemented much quicker:

http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/8225/xmenv204308rougher8wf.jpg

Emma should also be given credit for managing to cloak her Hellions minds from Magneto and Xavier with Cerebro.(She mentioned a third part along with those other two, can't remember the organisation)

Even if Jean doesn't have Phoenix force, she's still an Omega-Level mutant and equal to Xavier in terms of telepathy. Emma is 'bush-league' telepath.

As for Rachel vs. Cuckoos, same logic. Rachel has had a heck of lot experience in addition to her raw power levels.

Emma wins.

Jean Grey could never satisfy her husband like Jean did. For heaven's sake, I think Scott has had more sex with Emma in the past year than he has with Jean during their entire marriage.

Every X-Men comic has at least one panel of them in a post-coitus position in bed...

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Oooh Cold... I still say Emma is way hotter then that sacred corpse.
My Emma fanboyism only strengthens my Jean hatred...

I've never found Emma to be hot

Same with Angelina Jolie

Originally posted by eternitygoddess


Even if Jean doesn't have Phoenix force, she's still an Omega-Level mutant and equal to Xavier in terms of telepathy. Emma is 'bush-league' telepath.

As for Rachel vs. Cuckoos, same logic. Rachel has had a heck of lot experience in addition to her raw power levels.

Jean with her Realisation of her Phoenix Potential will win this.

Hypothetically speaking if Jean doesn't have the Phoenix Force, then Jean doesn't exist as the Force is her. Meaning Emma will win by default due to that Jean's lack of feats.

Secondly if I do happen to turn a blind eye to that tiny error and this time try and imagine a Jean without the PF then that would mean Jean doesn't have her Phoenix Potential either, meaning her Omega Potential goes out the window due to it being the same thing. Which means that Jean will be much, much weaker then Xavier and much weaker then Emma Frost. So "Bush League Telepath" Emma Frost would win.(Nova called her a Bush League Telepath, it was an insult...I mean keeping cloaking her Hellions minds from an Xavier with Cerebro is a pretty impressive feat. A Psychic Coma is also another impressive feat. Causing pain to Jean Grey another impressive feat. Emma's creativity with her abilities through Electronics and Brain functions are also more impressive feats. The Automatic psychic cloaking device she taught to Rachel, even more impressive. Dealing with Rachel who had more power even more impressive. Of cause she's not on Xavier or Nova's level but she's no Bush League Telepath either. Also Emma had a Bloom for a few weeks to teach her how to use her powers, Jean had Xavier for years. Credit should go to all those Telepaths who taught themselves the art of telepathy.)

Thirdly if we are talking about the Jean from those scans I posted above which is before she realised her potential , then I believe Emma will take it as the scans speak for themselves.(Psychic Blacklash??)

So Mrs "Bush League Telepath" does have a very good chance against a hypothetical Jean Grey without her Phoenix Potential or a Jean Grey Pre-Realisation of her Potential.

On a side note Omega Potential just means infinite potential. Just because a mutant is Omega it doesn't automatically mean that they could beat an Alpha. In Jean Grey's case though, her experience would allow her to beat most if not all Alpha's.

Originally posted by Grimm22
I've never found Emma to be hot

Same with Angelina Jolie

http://media.comics.ign.com/articles/627/627277/img_2946112.html
http://comics.ign.com/articles/627/627277p13.html

Originally posted by eternitygoddess


Even if Jean doesn't have Phoenix force, she's still an Omega-Level mutant and equal to Xavier in terms of telepathy.

Personally I don't think that Jean was Xavier's telepathic equal without the Phoenix force. I always thought Xavier was the most powerful telepath, until the Phoenix came along..............

Originally posted by willRules
Personally I don't think that Jean was Xavier's telepathic equal without the Phoenix force. I always thought Xavier was the most powerful telepath, until the Phoenix came along..............

Well since she had Omega potential yes she was, but until she realised that potential ie the PF, then Xavier was the most powerful telepath on the planet.

**FI**

Originally posted by FireIncarnate
Well since she had Omega potential yes she was, but until she realised that potential ie the PF, then Xavier was the most powerful telepath on the planet.

**FI**

Well that's the thing...Jean before she realized her Phoenix potential(Morrisons Jean) was never on par with Xavier...heck she wasn't even on par with Frost or Exodus...so saying she was more powerful then Xavier then is kind of stretching....also in her New X-Men run she was taken out by Nova twice...of course then she hadn't realized her potential fully...however after she became the Phoenix... she should have become a more powerful Psi then Xavier etc...

Remember that Omega Potential doesn't equal an instant win..especially when the potential was never realized...

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
Emma isn’t taking Jean in any form. I’m not sure why this perception of Jean being weak without being Phoenix persists, or where it arose, but it’s not accurate. Perhaps it’s because her non-Phoenix feats aren’t quite as flashy, but they’re still good none the less. She’s gotten through Magneto’s helmet at least once, and Juggernaut’s at least twice (the first time being before the end of the first run of the X-Men). She’s dragged beings immune to TP to the astral plane, as well as extra-dimensional entities like D’Spayre, searched the world with her TP for Xavier without Cerebra, separating Scott and Apocalypse…this is some of what I can think of off the top of my head. And it’s all non-Phoenix in anything other than name.

Emma’s skilled, no doubt, but Jean is no Rachel. She’s got more power than Emma, and the skill to back it up. And while we’re mentioning Nova, Jean and Emma, let us not forget the Emma couldn’t make it to Charles’ psyche while Jean did. Let’s also not forget that Jean also stored and splintered Xavier’s mind in the same arc.

If it were just about any other MU telepath, I’d be willing to give Emma a virtually unconditional win. When written well she can be downright frightening. Against Jean or Xavier, she’s going down.

Nicely put but I think you're missing the point...she was already manifesting the PF in the New X-Men arc....Pre-retcon Jean was extremely vunerable to Emma's Psychic Backlash(See the scan on the other page)....
I believe the Phoenix was involved in that Apocalypse Twelve arc as well...

As for Xaviers Psyche... 1.) Jean was manifesting the PF which helps and 2.) As for Emma having a hard time manouvering in Xaviers mind...it could have been the alcohol...she seemed as if she was playing around...and it was booby trapped....I mean sticking her hand in the doors mouth seems quite stupid IMO....especially when you're in the mind of a powerful psychic...had she done what Jean did and not touched anything she would have been fine...

Emma even though sneaky would go down against X...but she'd put up a fight...

Against Pre-retcon Jean...I'd say she'd take the majority 7 or 8/10 for Emma

Against New X-Men Jean....I'd say Jean takes 9.5/10....the 0.5 being a sneaky win by Emma...seeing how she's managed to escape the Phoenix before in UXM with her skill and a Psionic Bolt that effected the Physical Relam...

Damn....15 minutes are up...I should also add that the 0.5 is also for managing to hide her devious intentions from an angered Phoenix who just found out about her husband having a psychic affair, a Xavier and a Rogue who recently absorbed some of Emma's life force...

Originally posted by willRules
Personally I don't think that Jean was Xavier's telepathic equal without the Phoenix force. I always thought Xavier was the most powerful telepath, until the Phoenix came along..............

Xavier has more skill than anyone, but any Omega is more powerful than him.

And Emma's hotter, funnier, a better character, the best woman for Cyke, etc, but Jean beats her easily.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Nicely put but I think you're missing the point...she was already manifesting the PF in the New X-Men arc....Pre-retcon Jean was extremely vunerable to Emma's Psychic Backlash(See the scan on the other page)....
I believe the Phoenix was involved in that Apocalypse Twelve arc as well...

As for Xaviers Psyche... 1.) Jean was manifesting the PF which helps and 2.) As for Emma having a hard time manouvering in Xaviers mind...it could have been the alcohol...she seemed as if she was playing around...and it was booby trapped....I mean sticking her hand in the doors mouth seems quite stupid IMO....especially when you're in the mind of a powerful psychic...had she done what Jean did and not touched anything she would have been fine...

Emma even though sneaky would go down against X...but she'd put up a fight...

Against Pre-retcon Jean...I'd say she'd take the majority 7 or 8/10 for Emma

Against New X-Men Jean....I'd say Jean takes 9.5/10....the 0.5 being a sneaky win by Emma...seeing how she's managed to escape the Phoenix before in UXM with her skill and a Psionic Bolt that effected the Physical Relam...

I actually thought that reason why Emma didnt help Jean was because Nova was controlling her, as it was revealed in Astonishing that Emma is now in the Club and Nova created Emmas 2ndary mutation.

Or was that arc not thought about then?

**FI**

Lol you need to read Astonishing x-men 14.

Originally posted by FireIncarnate
I actually thought that reason why Emma didnt help Jean was because Nova was controlling her, as it was revealed in Astonishing that Emma is now in the Club and Nova created Emmas 2ndary mutation.

Or was that arc not thought about then?

**FI**

I've never thought about it like that...AXM is newer...so it could be a possibility...I mean even though Emma is insane she still told Nova that she returned the favour when Nova said I saved you....so it's a strong possibility...

Jean was manifesting the raptor regularly several years before Morrison took over. She'd done so as far back as her X-Factor days. Just because the raptor's there doesn't mean that she's in Phoenix mode. The same could easily be said for Rachel nowadays.

Jean and Rachel both are known to be psis that are particularly sensitive. Just because she was sensitive to the pain of a third party in no way affects how Jean would fare in a one on one battle with Emma. She's dealt with worse.

Just because Jean didn't know about the affair doesn't add up to any feat for Emma. It's simply that she didn't try to read Scott or Emma's mind. While that may be common place for Emma, it never was for Jean. And she more than proved that if she wanted in, there wasn't anything Emma could do to stop her.

I really can't think of anything that Emma can dish that Jean can't take. The same can't be said for Emma. She's not as battle savvy or as experienced as Jean. And Emma may be a beast at taking down people that have little or no psi protection. How is she going to fare against Xavier's protege (the one that, in turn, trained Cable)? The same issue that shows Jean feeling the feedback from Emma's attack (Uncanny 281, I believe) also shows her stopping the fight between the X-Men and THC with her TP. Even Emma was rubbing her head.

Jean's better trained, more experienced, has the best TP sparring partner on the planet...I don't see what Emma is going to bring to the table that would turn a fight in her favor.

Originally posted by eternitygoddess


Even if Jean doesn't have Phoenix force, she's still an Omega-Level mutant and equal to Xavier in terms of telepathy. Emma is 'bush-league' telepath.

As for Rachel vs. Cuckoos, same logic. Rachel has had a heck of lot experience in addition to her raw power levels.

Agreed. Phoenix force aside, Jean still kicks Emma's ass each and everytime. And in a physical confrontation as well.

Rachel against the Cuckoos? I dunno about that one honestly. I'm inclined to say Rachel because of her sheer power and all the experience she's had with it.

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
Jean was manifesting the raptor regularly several years before Morrison took over. She'd done so as far back as her X-Factor days. Just because the raptor's there doesn't mean that she's in Phoenix mode. The same could easily be said for Rachel nowadays.

That's why I've been using Pre-retcon Jean...the thread says no Phoenix and the only Jean that never had the Phoenix was Pre-retcon Jean...so any feats involving the fire bird are out...

BTW In your opinion does Rachel still have a fraction of the Phoenix Force?



When has it been stated that they're sensitive? The indirect Psionic Backlash of Emma is what hurt Jean so much that she relayed it along her mind link...hurting the people she was mind linked with...



I wasn't talking about the affair...but that's another feat...she kept it from Xavier...and Jean...
I was talking about her apparent betrayl in Astonishing X-Men...she was working with Nova all along...and Phoenix didn't notice this...also remember the whole Onslaught thing...he popped up everywhere and anywhere...Emma managed to hide herself and her students from him....

Also remember the first time she and Phoenix faced off..Emma's skill saved her...while Phoenix overpowered her....



Experienced? Emma is as experienced as Current Jean if not more so..



The one who took Psylockes telepathy to increase her own..and trained in the future an extra 12 years?
Pre-retcon Jean remember...




Jeans direct attack vs Emma's indirect attack....

Which is more impressive?



Better trained and more experienced? I think not...even for current Jean...

More power yes for Current Jean....

As for Pre-retcon Jean...I'm not sure...as the Phoenix was an entity then...

That's why I say Emma can beat down Pre-retcon Jean..a solid 8/10

The firebird doesn't necessarily correspond to drawing on the power of Phoenix. It's Jean's psi signature, just like the butterfly was Betsy's. Jean has never been "Phoenix" without having both TP and TK. She's had both and not been "Phoenix," but she's never been "Phoenix" without both. And you can't say that the only Jean w/o the Phoenix was pre-retcon Jean (what do you mean by that anyway? which retcon?), since it's established that it is genetically hers to wield. Regardless of when or how she's used the PF in the past, the ability to use it is in her DNA, so there's no way to completely separate the two. The Phoenix was shown to interact with Jean when she was first on the team anyway, when the X-Men and FF were in space.



I don't have my comics with me, and I can't remember a specific issue number, so I'll withdraw that reference. However, my contention still stands. Jean's dealt with psionic backlash before and moved past it. She's ended psi links because others would feel the backlash as well. It comes with the territory. That said, it still has nothing to do with a one on one fight. Is Emma going to find the nearest person and start telepathically torturing them to weaken Jean? It doesn't really have any relevance to this fight.



Keeping a secret from a TP isn't a feat unless they are looking for it. She was in the best place to keep secrets, because Jean and Charles don't pry like Emma does. Same thing goes with her working with THC. They aren't going to discover what they aren't looking for. As far as Onslaught's concerned...she may have been successful hiding her students. Or it could have been that Onslaught wasn't concerned with them because they couldn't provide him what he needed.

Emma's skill saved her? Are you sure? Even then, Phoenix didn't kill, so I'm not sure how Emma's skill saved her, especially since she herself says that after that confrontation Jean left her incontinent and drooling...





The power swap between Jean and Bets hasn't ever really been explained, so I don't think it has any bearing on this discussion. Emma as experienced as Jean? Using TP in general, maybe. In combat, not hardly. Emma's mostly used her skills on people who were not psis, and not nearly as often in combat as Jean has, for the simple fact that she wasn't a combatant. That's indisputable. Astonishing is really Emma's first time on a true combat team. Jean's been on one since she was 15. And Emma certainly doesn't have the battle feats that Jean does.



In that particular issue, you mean? Emma mindraping a defenseless child and Jean feeling psionic feedback vs Jean getting inside the head of every combatant and making them stop, including those with natural psi defenses (like Storm) and a first class psi (like Emma)? It wasn't an indirect attack anyway...

Please define what you mean by pre-retcon...I'm not sure I'm following you. And I still don't see what Emma can bring to the table that Jean can't handle. She's been confronted with the deaths of the 5 billion D'Bari on more than one occasion, and she's gotten past it to kick her opponents but, so some backlash isn't going to do much. And she knows Emma's mind much more than Emma knows hers. Besides, anyone that tried getting in to Jean's consciousness to deep inevitably confronts the Phoenix, and that's where the fight ends.

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
The firebird doesn't necessarily correspond to drawing on the power of Phoenix. It's Jean's psi signature, just like the butterfly was Betsy's. Jean has never been "Phoenix" without having both TP and TK. She's had both and not been "Phoenix," but she's never been "Phoenix" without both. And you can't say that the only Jean w/o the Phoenix was pre-retcon Jean (what do you mean by that anyway? which retcon?), since it's established that it is genetically hers to wield. Regardless of when or how she's used the PF in the past, the ability to use it is in her DNA, so there's no way to completely separate the two. The Phoenix was shown to interact with Jean when she was first on the team anyway, when the X-Men and FF were in space.

I understand that...however you're still using Post Retcon Jean...The Phoenix was once called an entity it was once considered a seperate being....however now it's been established that Jean is the Phoenix...hence the retcon...

What I'm saying is that the Jean before the retcon occured without the entity Phoenix is Pre-retcon Jean.

Understand that when people use the term Pre-retcon Jean they mean the Jean when the Phoenix was once considered an entity...



You mean Exodus' psychic backlash which indirectly took her out...and she didn't end the Psi-link she relayed her pain onto the others...
What it proves is that if Emma's psionic backlash can indirectly injure that particular Jean...then imagine what a fully fledged attack can do?




The Phoenix was pissed off when she broke through Emma's psi-defenses...she tore through Emma's mind....you're telling me hiding her true intentions is not a feat? I think not...Jean was looking for everything and anything....remember she wanted to know about Scott and Emma sleeping together?

Onslaught went after nearly everyone in the MU...he even came to Canada to take out the Alpha Flight...you're telling me he wouldn't want to use her or her students? She hide them successfully...and anticipated his birth...

This next bit is open up to speculation, however...I think it's safe to say that Emma is involved....Onslaught even acknowledges that the X-Men have 4 world class telepaths when he talks to Dark Beast..he doesn't specify who he's talking about though...however he acknowledges her existence then why wouldn't he have gone looking for them...he was looking for pawns remember...




Umm....Phoenix was trying to turn her into a vegetable...had Emma not effected the Physical realm with her mental bolt..she would have been far worse...had it not been for her quick thinking and skill...god only knows what would have happened..





Umm...Emma took out Astrid Bloom like a play thing when she was still new to her powers...Emma learnt about the Astral Plane very early in her life...Jean got her telepathy later even though she's a few years older then Emma....Emma honed her skills to be a monster...when she was with the Hellfire Club and formedher Hellions she's used her telepathy to constantly hide her team and herself from Xavier with Cerebro and Magneto...she's fought the New Warriors with her Hellions...she's had the Hellfires resources to hone her skills as a telepath...
She's had enough more then enough experience with telepathy in combat situations...




Umm...it was an indirect attack...by Emma's psionic backlash...the backlash is what caused the pain to Jean..Jeans attack was a direct assault...



Pre-retcon Jean = Jean when the Phoenix Force was considered an entity...and when Jean wasn't acting as a host for it..

The deaths of 5 billion strangers that's what you think will cause Jean the most pain? How about Emma sleeping with her husband..Emma being able to satisfy Scott...Scotts love....or Jean being a failure as a parent?

How does Jean know her mind more then she does Jean...? Emma knows all the X-Men inside out possibly not Xavier since he has so many skeletons in his closet....? However in AXM #14 she does say that Xavier thinks telepaths are better then everyone else...so she does kind of know his.

BTW The fact that Emma managed to hide stuff from the pissed off Phoenix says it all...

Again you used the Phoenix...the thread says no Phoenix meaning...Pre-retcon Jean...

Sorry for the double post but 15 minutes are up..

IIRC they state that Betsy's boosted Jeans telepathy..not that it wasn't powerful then..but she became more powerful..

She also managed to gain 12 years of telepathic experience on Xavier and Emma in the future when she trained with Cable...

But isn't that all post-retcon...

BTW As I said before the hellfire resources have helped her hone her abilities in combat situations that's the reason why she took out Storm, Wolverine and Colossus so easily...even after they had psi shielding training from Phoenix and Xavier..

You're also basically saying that Jean has more experience in combat telepathy then Cassie Nova, Exodus..etc...

I understand the concept of the second retcon, which re-establishes the original intent of Phoenix, that it was Jean's power all along. But if you want to go with it being a separate entity, then Jean wasn't in contact with Phoenix again until Morrison's arc, so everything else is fair game.



I haven't seen the issue you're referring to with Exodus, so I can't comment on that. She has severed psi links before to prevent people from feeling the back lash, and has shielded people from psionic back lash before. A direct attack by Emma isn't going to have much affect on a Jean that's prepared. And if we're gonna talk low points, we have to recall Emma being taken out by a brick thrown by a human...and not able to use her telepathy.



No, it's not a feat, because nothing happened. How is she going to find what's not there? Onslaught also used Chamber's power to gain an existence of his own, didn't he? So he obviously found at least one of her students...



One can't really say what Phoenix was doing other than taking down her opponents. She did turn Emma into a vegetable temporarily. You're forgetting that the X-Men (for the most part) don't kill. Phoenix was no exception. At that point, she hadn't crossed over completely from Black Queen to Dark Phoenix, so terminal violence wasn't yet in her cadre. Regardless of Emma's skill or quick thinking, she was out of her league and still taken down, period.


Point taken. Although I wouldn't consider her fights against adolescents to be particularly high points for her. What do the resources of the Hellfire Club have to do with her and her skill?



It wasn't an indirect attack--it was fallout from the attack. Besides, why would she want to attack the people that she'd invited there? Doesn't make make much sense to me...



Yeah, the death of 5 billion strangers would affect her, considering that she was responsible for their deaths, a lot more than what was happening between Emma and Scott. Note her response was one of anger, not one of hurt. Unfortunately Morrison didn't really show Jean being capable of that emotion later in his run.

Jean knows her better because she's been in her mind on more than one occasion. There hasn't been one instance of Emma being in Jean's mind (not that I know of anyway). Sure, she knows how the X-Men work, just as they know how THC works. That doesn't mean that she knows Jean like Jean knows her. If she did, she probably wouldn't have played around with Scott. You keep saying that she hid something, but there was nothing to hide, unless you have proof that Scott and Emma slept together before Jean died...

And I would say that Jean certainly has more experience in combat TP than Nova--she essentially sucker punched the X-Men. Nova wasn't around that long, as and far as we know, that was her first confrontation of any kind. Exodus, I'm not sure. Supposedly he's been around a while, so I can't really say what his experiences were before he joined Magneto's camp. That's neither here nor there.

You keep talking about pre-retcon Jean, and those are the examples I used (except for confrontations between Jean and Emma). Jean was never Phoenix in anything more than name until Morrison came along and re-established Claremont's original take. No one, not even Xavier, has been able to go beyond a certain point in Jean's mind. Even when she had no TP, no psychic defenses whatsoever, people could only go so far. She's faced far worse than Emma. If Jean wants to get past a shield, she'll get past. She's proven that time and time again. She's used her TP to communicate with everything from dogs to demons, dived in the mind of a dying man, prevented hundreds of people from panicking...I mean, we can go back and forth on feats all day long. I still don't see anything that is unique to Emma that would allow her to take Jean down.

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
I understand the concept of the second retcon, which re-establishes the original intent of Phoenix, that it was Jean's power all along. But if you want to go with it being a separate entity, then Jean wasn't in contact with Phoenix again until Morrison's arc, so everything else is fair game.

I believe after/during the Onslaught saga she started manifesting the Phoenix signature...so anything after that wouldn't count...



One of the scans are on the previous page...if you want I'll scan more..it was during hte destruction of Avalon...

Being hit by a brick is physical..nothing to do with Astral Battles...



Huh? She was working with Nova the whole time...of course it's a feat....

All Emma's students that were with her...were safe...Banshee aswell.



Out of her league in terms of the Phoenix not in terms of Pre-Retcon Jean...

BTW She escaped via her skill from a cosmic being...you've got to give her perks for that..




If you look at the facilities that the HC supply i.e. The training centre under Emma's academy then it's most probable that she homed her telepathy using it...

Exodus and Nova haven't been shown fightin many telepaths but yet they are certainly no less experienced then Jean..



The indirect psionic energy from the attack is what mentally crippled Jean...
Jean wanted them to stop...so she assaulted them mentally..



I didn't say it wouldn't I just think her being a failed parent and a crap wife...you know is worse...



She managed to hide who she's actually working with...Cassandra Nova...
Emma constantly reads peoples thoughts...in New X-Men she was describing Scotts and Jeans marriage problems to Wolverine..
Why wouldn't she...she played around with Scott because intially that's how she was going to get back at Jean...then Emma fell in love...



The point being the same logic can be applied to Emma...



Pre-retcon Jean is limited in top tier feats...as I said Anything after/during the Onslaught Saga is out....and anything with the PF is out...

Plus there's the feat where Emma's Psionic backlash is serverly hurting her...

Jean easily wins, so does Rachel.

Originally posted by The Pict
Jean easily wins, so does Rachel.

As for Rachel?

I don't know...5 Cuckoos who actually have skills vs a Powerful TP weilder with little skill

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
As for Rachel?

I don't know...5 Cuckoos who actually have skills vs a Powerful TP weilder with little skill

There are only 3 now right? Or does he mean all 5 anyway?

Originally posted by The Pict
There are only 3 now right? Or does he mean all 5 anyway?

Don't know but yeah they're only three but they have part of the Phoenix Force with them..I'm assuming we're using all 5 Cuckoo's without their fragment.

BTW CF When did this brick incident occur? GenX I can't find it...Oh and I forgot to add this but I disagree that Jean has more combat experience then Nova or Exodus...

Nova sucker punched Xavier...Jean on the other hand knew that she was coming...the second time...however the first time wasn't an ambush either...Jean knew what Nova was up to...then too..

So as far as experience goes...you can't say Jean is more experience then them because the others don't have their own mainstream comic...that would also mean that Psylocke has more telepathic combat experience then Nova

**** outta here with that weak ass shit

Says you. The raptor has been her psi-signature for years, when there wasn't even the remotest connection to the Phoenix, just as Betsy's was the butterfly. Just because she manifests the raptor doesn't mean she's using the PF at all. Most of the time (but not always) if the Phoenix is involved, the signature is one of flame, not pink or purple or blue. By the same token, there are many times when Jean manifests the Phoenix but there is no raptor. Just because a raptor is there doesn't mean much.



It shows that anyone can be caught off guard. There's absolutely no reason that Emma should have been hurt by that brick. She should have known it was coming, but she didn't and her TP suffered.


Dude, you're really reaching for that one. First of all, how could she have hidden the nature of a relationship that didn't exist until years later? Second, it wouldn't be surprising if none of the other TPs knew, because as I said before, Emma's the only one in the mansion with no compunction about violating the minds of others. Charles and Jean have always taken a higher road when it comes to stuff like that. Perhaps most importantly, there isn't really any solid proof that Jean didn't know. It's an assumption.


Check again. Chamber and Skin weren't on that plane. Neither was Leech and some others as well. Onslaught wanted to find out the extent of Chamber's abilities, and he did. Chamber also surmised that what was happening astrally was due to Onslaught, while Emma ran and tried to hide the rest of her students.



Once again you're reaching. I suppose Mastermind escaped due to his skill too, huh? If Jean wanted Emma dead or whatever, she would have been. I'm still not sure how Emma saved herself from someone that wasn't trying to kill her...It certainly wasn't enough to protect her from the beatdown she got


Don't TPs usually train with other TPs, not machinery?


Another unsupported assumption. How many years was Xavier a telepath before he met another telepath, the Shadow King? That was his first astral battle against an opponent that had been around for centuries. Just because Nova and Exodus are beasts doesn't mean that they have tons of experience fighting other TPs. It just means that they are powerful. Since Exodus has been around for centuries (apparently), I can buy him having lots of experience. Nova, not so much. She may have shared Chuck's power and some of his skill, but certainly not his experience. And that's not to say that one can not become an accomplished TP without engaging other TPs. It just becomes a different experience combating another TP than it is manipulating the mind of a regular person.


Remember she tells Emma that none of the X-Men are to be underestimated. She obviously wasn't crippled. It may have been unpleasant, sure, but she was far from helpless.


That might matter if any of it were true, but that's a discussion for another time...


Again, an assumption basing a characters actions on something that hasn't been written yet. We have no idea of how Whedon's going to resolve all of this anyway.

Why would she want to get back at Jean? For removing all of the rubble in Genosha and saving her life? It doesn't really matter why she did it anyway. She still wasn't being smart, but again, a discussion for another time.


What do you mean? I'm not following you...


Once again, this is according to your guidelines, not the ones established by Marvel or the thread starter.


That's not a feat.


Now I know you're just hating on the Greys. What have the Cuckoos done compared to anything that Rachel has done? Almost nothing is known about them except that two are more students that Emma lost, they've used Cerebra a couple times, made one of the U-Men think he was a bug and tell Jean about Scott's relationship with Emma. Rachel's done to many things to list, with and without the PF. Even as a kid, she managed to shield herself from Xavier's TP while in his face. The Cuckoo's have nothing to even begin to approach that type of power or skill. Besides, they're only really worth anything when they're working together. As each falls, they become weaker...


It was after Planet X. You can continue to disagree, but you have no proof that Nova has any experience before her first confrontation with the X-Men.


You're right...it wasn't an ambush. It was a sneak attack. They weren't expecting it, and they didn't know what she was up to.


And you can't say that the others have more experience because you want them to. Exodus is an established character that has been around for years, and he has a back story that has yet to be fully explored. Nova is Xavier's twin. She shows up in New X-Men. All we know is that her mission was to destroy Xavier. Until someone decides to create a back story for her, that's all there is to go on. The only confrontations we know of were with the X-Men--there's nothing to the contrary. Based on on-panel evidence, Jean's more experienced. But that has little bearing on this confrontation between Jean and Emma.

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
Says you. The raptor has been her psi-signature for years, when there wasn't even the remotest connection to the Phoenix, just as Betsy's was the butterfly. Just because she manifests the raptor doesn't mean she's using the PF at all. Most of the time (but not always) if the Phoenix is involved, the signature is one of flame, not pink or purple or blue. By the same token, there are many times when Jean manifests the Phoenix but there is no raptor. Just because a raptor is there doesn't mean much.

The raptor without the Phoenix entity is what paved the way for Jean/Phoenix being one entity...and as of current continuity every single manifestation of the Phoenix Raptor is because Jean Grey is the Phoenix...Pre-Retcon Jean is Jean without the Phoenix...IIRC I believe she manifests the Phoenix Effect on the astral plane when Onslaught moves her there...and then later on in UXM she does it again....

No Phoenix means no Phoenix Potential(Omega Potential), All Phoenix Feats are erased and everything up to the Phoenix being manifested is negated....which means everything after a point in the Onslaught Saga.

If you can name a situation where she manifested the fire effect before the Onslaught saga then we can erase all her feats from that point onwards...



Emma doesn't constantly probe peoples..there's no point to it...Xavier has been hit on the head with a baseball bat...this point has nothing to do with a KMC telepathic battle.




During Emma and Nova's conversation Nova mentions that she saved Emma's life..and Emma says she returned the favour...Emma was clearly aware of what was going on...and and angry Phoenix did break into Emma's mind...looking for answers...




Read what I said all of Emma's students that were with her were safe...anyone who wasn't on that plane wasn't...don't see what you're trying to get at.



Endsong was certainly no fluke when she protected Cyclops..nor was this...the fact that Emma can think in the heat of battle shows how she can turn the tables with a simple weaker mind blast...it was enough to fool the Phoenix...



There are many ways to train a persons mind...i.e Pin Pointing, Telepathy Inhibtors etc...



If that's the case then Telepathic Combat Experience has no bearing on an Astral Battle...as shown in Comics...Nova, Emma and Exodus are prime examples...same with the Shadow King...



That's after Emma stopped with the Psionic backlash...




See Nova and Emma's discussion Emma was well aware of what she did...



Saving her life in Genosha? I think not...cleaning up the rubble...err yeah sure...maybe for the time when the Phoenix almost turned her into a vegetable...




I was talking about Shadow King and Novas off panel experience...however if that's the case then as shown in comics combat experience means nothing...since Nova can waltz in and dish out a whipping.



Marvel has already established that Jean is the Phoenix so I don't know what you're getting at...
The thread starter says no Phoenix...no Phoenix means no Omega Potential(Phoenix Potential), it means all feats involving the manifestation of the Phoenix are out as well...which includes the one in the Onslaught Saga and The UXM 350's


That's not a feat.

According to you it isn't...Jean being hurt by indirect Psionic energy...




Warsongs out read it...as for the Cuckoos skill they've been taught lots and lots of tricks and together they have power....Rachel couldn't break through the HC psi-shielding...Emma could....Rachel couldn't even manage to hold the illusion trick Emma taught her...Cuckoos have shown to have no trouble with Emma's tricks...5 minds on the astral plane is better then one..in any event..especially when those minds together have power...




I still haven't found it...after Planet X is that alternate futurethat gets amputated right? Got the issue number NXM 149ish???
As shown in comics Combat experience has no bearing on the outcome of a astral battle...




Jean see's Nova..she knows Nova is a telepath....Jean goes down...no sneak attack...


Two can play that game...
Combat experience as shown by Nova, Exodus, Emma, Shadow King, Legion etc...has no bearing on the outcome of the astral battle..

I think you're exaggerating Pre-retcon Jean...and from what you said about Nova you're underestimating everyone else...
As for the thing about Rachel Grey...??? I mean...the girl has potential but her telepathy is shoddy...very shoddy...

But Rachel is also backed by her telekinesis, which is more skilled than her tp.

Originally posted by eternitygoddess
But Rachel is also backed by her telekinesis, which is more skilled than her tp.

No TK in this thread see the thread starters post...just telepathy...

BTW CF As for the retcon...I believe it can be taken back even further then the Onslaught saga...

Jean joined with the Phoenix for the first time...who made a duplicate of her and placed her in a cacoon...

Phoenix duplicate sacrifices self on moon...Pyor is born with piece of PF memories, life-force, soul etc embedded into her genetic structure...the real Jean is found by the avengers in a cacoon...

Pyor and Jean eventually confront each other...Pyor dies...also killing Jean...however Jean merges with the PF inside of Pyor becoming the Phoenix again...receiving all of Pyors and Phoenixes memories and having a dual persona...Jean also recieves the life-force of the PF etc....that is embedded into her genetic structure...


During Celestial confrontation the personas emerge and are destroyed however the PF is still embedded inside of Jeans genetic structure. Which she demonstrates in an on and off fashion until Morrisons run and Endsong explaining everything.

So infact Pre-retcon Jean is the Jean that emerges from the cacoon before she receives Pyors persona..anything after that would mean she has the PF embedded into her genetic structure...

Also has a phoenixless Jean manifested that raptor and phoenix mark on her face before that Pyor event took place?

The main problem I have with this argument is that you can't erase what exists, and you're trying to combine two different views into one. This retcon that you refer to only returns the characters to the creators original intentions. There's nothing to suggest that the reappearance of the raptor paved the way in any way, shape or form, especially since most of it's appearances with Jean have been pink (sometimes purple or blue), which indicates her unique psi signature. There's nothing to contradict that. When Jean was manifesting the PF, it was stated as such. We saw fire, she began speaking with the voice, etc. None of that was happening in the 90s when she manifested the raptor. It was very clear in NXM that she was Phoenix: Wolverine mentioned it, Scott was withdrawn, and she told Charles that she needed him to tell Scott that she wasn't evil.

You also can't refer to pre-retcon Jean, specifically because there is no such thing. Just because there may be a change in understanding a specific aspect of a character's nature doesn't negate the fact that the character still exists. So if you're going by this idea of "before Jean and Phoenix were synonymous," which is what is seems that you are, then that in facts makes the feats in question to you more reliable, because they were accomplished through her own power. If you take that Jean was always Phoenix, then everything, from the time her powers first manifest on, have a connection, even remotely, to the PF. You can't have it both ways.

Besides, it's been established that it's a genetic ability that Greys are born with. Jean didn't become Phoenix because a fraction saved her from dying during Inferno. It was established that it's genetic and her's by birthright.

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
The main problem I have with this argument is that you can't erase what exists, and you're trying to combine two different views into one. This retcon that you refer to only returns the characters to the creators original intentions. There's nothing to suggest that the reappearance of the raptor paved the way in any way, shape or form, especially since most of it's appearances with Jean have been pink (sometimes purple or blue), which indicates her unique psi signature. There's nothing to contradict that. When Jean was manifesting the PF, it was stated as such. We saw fire, she began speaking with the voice, etc. None of that was happening in the 90s when she manifested the raptor. It was very clear in NXM that she was Phoenix: Wolverine mentioned it, Scott was withdrawn, and she told Charles that she needed him to tell Scott that she wasn't evil.

You also can't refer to pre-retcon Jean, specifically because there is no such thing. Just because there may be a change in understanding a specific aspect of a character's nature doesn't negate the fact that the character still exists. So if you're going by this idea of "before Jean and Phoenix were synonymous," which is what is seems that you are, then that in facts makes the feats in question to you more reliable, because they were accomplished through her own power. If you take that Jean was always Phoenix, then everything, from the time her powers first manifest on, have a connection, even remotely, to the PF. You can't have it both ways.

Besides, it's been established that it's a genetic ability that Greys are born with. Jean didn't become Phoenix because a fraction saved her from dying during Inferno. It was established that it's genetic and her's by birthright.

My definition of Pre-retcon was wrong..I admit that...but the thread says no Phoenix...and there was an actual point in time(Real Life time) no matter how far back ...when Jean was not the Phoenix...this is the Jean I'm referring to...she should actually be called Pre-retcons Jean...as there are many retcons...

During inferno...the Phoenix embedded itself in Pyors genetic structure which was past onto Jean....of course now this has all been cleaned up and retconned again....mainly the part where the Phoenix was a seperate entity...and the embedding part...as Jean has always been one with the phoenix...and also the whole Grey/Phoenix genetic thing...

What I'm saying is and this negates what exists...everything past that point where the genetic structure...was embedded into Jean...is removed because she did that with the aid of the Phoenix...if the thread states no Phoenix then everything involving the Phoenix is gone...again before you say it...I know that Jean was born the Phoenix...however we want a Jean without it...and the only Jean we know of is...the one before all the retcons and genetic embedding...

And that is why I said Emma could win against Pre-retcon(s) Jean...I already know that the Current Marvel Jean would beat Emma any day in a telepathic battle....however a Jean who is so crippled in feats and experience and skill and training etc..i.e. the one before the genetic embedding and all those cool upgrades that make her so powerful i.e. the telepathy boost, the 12 year future training etc... should be easily taken down....

Remember the Wonder Women thread...you posted in it...so you must remember...that's when I realized that when a person says Pre-Retcon Jean on KMC forums...it limits her abilities(In other words the amount of feats she's done)...and greatly inhibits her chances of winning a forum battle.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
My definition of Pre-retcon was wrong..I admit that...but the thread says no Phoenix...and there was an actual point in time(Real Life time) no matter how far back ...when Jean was not the Phoenix...this is the Jean I'm referring to...she should actually be called Pre-retcons Jean...as there are many retcons...

During inferno...the Phoenix embedded itself in Pyors genetic structure which was past onto Jean....of course now this has all been cleaned up and retconned again....mainly the part where the Phoenix was a seperate entity...and the embedding part...as Jean has always been one with the phoenix...and also the whole Grey/Phoenix genetic thing...

What I'm saying is and this negates what exists...everything past that point where the genetic structure...was embedded into Jean...is removed because she did that with the aid of the Phoenix...if the thread states no Phoenix then everything involving the Phoenix is gone...again before you say it...I know that Jean was born the Phoenix...however we want a Jean without it...and the only Jean we know of is...the one before all the retcons and genetic embedding...

And that is why I said Emma could win against Pre-retcon(s) Jean...I already know that the Current Marvel Jean would beat Emma any day in a telepathic battle....however a Jean who is so crippled in feats and experience and skill and training etc..i.e. the one before the genetic embedding and all those cool upgrades that make her so powerful i.e. the telepathy boost, the 12 year future training etc... should be easily taken down....

Remember the Wonder Women thread...you posted in it...so you must remember...that's when I realized that when a person says Pre-Retcon Jean on KMC forums...it limits her abilities(In other words the amount of feats she's done)...and greatly inhibits her chances of winning a forum battle.

I understand what you're going for, but it ignores a few things. Even before the old retcon was retconned, there was a very marked distinction between Jean and Phoenix. It doesn't matter if a fraction pulled Jean back from the edge of the grave, because her power signature is primarily pink. Throughout all those years, X-Factor, Gold Team, Revolution, etc, her psi signature was pink. You saw a difference in X-Factor when she blew off Arishem's hand. There you saw a flaming bird, not a pink one. I have no problem accepting Jean drawing on the PF when the signature is fiery, but if it's pink, she's not drawing on the PF. There has not been one time that I've seen where she's truly drawn on the PF and the sig has been pink. When she reassembled Emma, the sig was fiery. A perfect juxtaposition is when the U-Men came to campus. When she first began dealing with them, her sig was pink. As she became more and more pissed, flames began forming around her head, and eventually she manifested a fiery raptor, not a pink one.

That's the thing: just because the potential was there doesn't mean she necessarily drew upon it. Marvel has been very clear about what's Jean and what's Phoenix by the way they identify their psi signatures. It's the same thing with current Rachel. She's the same way that Jean was during Revolution: pink psi signature with the shadow effect over her eye, but not manifesting the flaming raptor. Now I might be willing to concede that that is a point of transition, but it's certainly not Phoenix mode.

It's also interesting to note that Marvel says, and has said for the longest, that Rachel has Jean's abilities as Marvel Girl. Claremont has dumbed Rachel down for some strange reason. It's probably so that Emma can be the TP diva in the X books. You can't (or shouldn't) simply go by feats in Uncanny the past couple years. Rachel was tough, even before she was in touch with the PF. Now granted, when Rachel wielded the Phoenix, she didn't have to rely as much on skill as she does now. She's also had some trouble with her memory, thanks to the Phoenix. If we were to take into account all of Rachel's experience-pre Phoenix, Phoenix, Askani, Marvel Girl-she has pretty much more experience than ANY psi alive on earth (except for maybe Exodus). Claremont gives her the shaft when it comes to her and Emma, but Rachel is in no way, shape or form a pushover. And despite the fact that the Cuckoos have been trained by Emma, I firmly believe that Rachel would stomp them.

I understand what you're saying about the psi-signatures...but hasn't it been shown that Jean only manifests the fiery raptor when using more power then needed...i.e. In life or death situations...or when she's under extreme stress....you can't really say that she never tapped into it when her unlimited TK/TP potential allowed her to do far greater feats than she's ever done...Also you can't really say that the Phoenix signature was seperate from her own especially when it was embedded into her genetic structure...which would mean that her energy signature and the PF signature are one in the same....menaing she's always tapping into it..even to perform low level feats... but under extreme stress she taps into it even more..and then the effects kick in...
My point being is that since it was embedded into her genes....the PF is her energy signature and the raptor only appears under dire situations...


As for Claremont..IMO he hates Emma....but that's for another story...I think the Rachel thing was to show that skill>raw power...

As for the fight...we taking current versions...all 5 cuckoos are alive in Warsong...and we'll remove their PF because it's unfair. Rachel is inexperienced with her TP...she forgot everything...the Cuckoos haven't...I'm not saying it'd be pushover easy but the Cuckoos should take it.

You have numbers...5 equally powerful minds...which helps on the Astral Plane..all five know more tricks then current Rachel...and together they have power...

Actually, you can say exactly that, and NXM is a perfect example. When she's moved things like cans or towels or scalpels or whatever, her signature has been pink. When she put Emma back together, when she assembled the spaceship and flew out of the sun, she was on fire. There's a very clear distinction. Besides, her powers are just like anyone else's, or any muscle. The more you use it, the stronger it gets. She said that she'd been pushing herself, practicing, back in UXM, I think. Then when you get to NXM she begins drawing on more and more power, experiencing more, becoming aware of more.



That's the thing, though. Rachel had plenty of skill before Claremont got ahold of her again...And doesn't your statement debunk your argument regarding Emma and Phoenix? If Emma is indeed more skilled, she should have been able to walk away from that situation the same way she did with Rachel.


I'm not saying you shouldn't use current versions. I'm saying you can't just discount what came before simply because her showings currently aren't necessarily has high as the ones in the past. And there is nothing to suggest that the Cuckoos are more knowledgeable or experienced than Rachel as far as TP is concerned. Rachel's been able to hold her own in the past, and she does ok now. For all of what the Cuckoos supposedly know, we've seen them use very little of it, none of it on the astral plane. Especially if we're going by what was accomplished when all five were alive, the only feat they have is stopping Quentin using Cerebra AND Kick, and he's an omega psi like Rachel.

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
Actually, you can say exactly that, and NXM is a perfect example. When she's moved things like cans or towels or scalpels or whatever, her signature has been pink. When she put Emma back together, when she assembled the spaceship and flew out of the sun, she was on fire. There's a very clear distinction. Besides, her powers are just like anyone else's, or any muscle. The more you use it, the stronger it gets. She said that she'd been pushing herself, practicing, back in UXM, I think. Then when you get to NXM she begins drawing on more and more power, experiencing more, becoming aware of more.

Well then that's what I'm saying...her signature is one in the same...the different colours show how much strain she's putting into using her powers...meaning she's always tapping into it...just on different levels...each time..she has control...as well so she can control how much she taps into it...





Nope...because I believe Rachel gave up the Phoenix Force....Jean didn't...and what Jean did was kinda outside Psi rules..she was draining the life-force out of Emma by using the Phoenix




The Cuckoos were able to do the feat Jean asked them to...Rachel could barely do the feat Emma showed her...

I think you're undestimating them here ...5 against 1....numbers help on the astral plane...especially when you're fighting a telepath who isn't that experienced....and it's not like they don't have power together...

BTW There's a reason why her showings aren't that high...it's because she forgot a lot of stuff...and KMC rules requires current versions...

Jean wins.

Phoenix crap always makes matches complicated.

Question here when Jean found out what Emma and Scott were doing and confronted her. What part in that did Emma with-held anything from Jean cause all I remember was Emma acting smug AT FIRST then begging Jean to stop. Emma was completely helpless while Jean had enfolded her(Emma) into into her(Jean) own thoughts. It's interesting how some mentioned Emma knows Jean inside and out you'd think she'd have known better than to mess with the phoenix in the sneaky way she did. And seeing as Jean got exactly what she wanted from Emma while basically torturing her seems to me she with-held nothing.

Originally posted by celestialbodies
Question here when Jean found out what Emma and Scott were doing and confronted her. What part in that did Emma with-held anything from Jean cause all I remember was Emma acting smug AT FIRST then begging Jean to stop. Emma was completely helpless while Jean had enfolded her(Emma) into into her(Jean) own thoughts. It's interesting how some mentioned Emma knows Jean inside and out you'd think she'd have known better than to mess with the phoenix in the sneaky way she did. And seeing as Jean got exactly what she wanted from Emma while basically torturing her seems to me she with-held nothing.

Phoenix wanted to know about the memory in Hong Kong between Scott and her. Emma cuts Phoenix off from that memory at the end of the issue. It's impressive when you're going up against a COSMIC being.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Phoenix wanted to know about the memory in Hong Kong between Scott and her. Emma cuts Phoenix off from that memory at the end of the issue. It's impressive when you're going up against a COSMIC being.


Actually if you re-read some issues back in NXM you'll realize that while Jean was tapping into her phoenix potential. She was NOT a cosmic being she didn't gain that type of power until after Logan and her was hurled towards the sun. She even commented to Logan she didn't have that kind of power yet and their conversation took place after the butt whopping of Miss Dear Frost. She had to die to really become her Phoenix self so don't even attempt to say Emma was going up against a COSMIC being because she was NOT. Its interesting how your re-stating that seeing as you wrote the same comment in the Emma respect thread where no one would disagree.

Originally posted by celestialbodies
Actually if you re-read some issues back in NXM you'll realize that while Jean was tapping into her phoenix potential. She was NOT a cosmic being she didn't gain that type of power until after Logan and her was hurled towards the sun. She even commented to Logan she didn't have that kind of power yet and their conversation took place after the butt whopping of Miss Dear Frost. She had to die to really become her Phoenix self so don't even attempt to say Emma was going up against a COSMIC being because she was NOT. Its interesting how your re-stating that seeing as you wrote the same comment in the Emma respect thread where no one would disagree.

She was tapping into cosmic reserves it was stated in the issue and in her conversation with Xavier. It was shown through out NXM before that issue, it was shown during her encounter with Bishop. Wrong actually, if that was the case Xorn wouldn't have killed her and shattered the Phoenix Force so easily.

What you don't understand is that the Phoenix's power increases exponentially as she wields it.(See the Dark Phoenix Saga)
She was tapping into cosmic reserves before being sent into the sun. She was tapping into MORE cosmic reserves after being sent into the sun. And she was tapping into even more cosmic reserves after coming back from the dead the 3rd time in Here Comes Tommorrow.

She's was tapping into cosmic reserves throughout Morrisons entire run that's how Morrison explained Jeans TK returning as well. As each issue went by she tapped into it more and more.

Furthermore Morrison even stated that Jean was tapping into the Phoenix Force in that Wizard Special interview of his during her encounter with Emma.

And since you love Endsong so much lets look at the Phoenix Force...remember that line what is a fraction of infinite? Infinite. Which still makes that a very impressive feat.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
She was tapping into cosmic reserves it was stated in the issue and in her conversation with Xavier. It was shown through out NXM before that issue, it was shown during her encounter with Bishop. Wrong actually, if that was the case Xorn wouldn't have killed her and shattered the Phoenix Force so easily.

What you don't understand is that the Phoenix's power increases exponentially as she wields it.(See the Dark Phoenix Saga)
She was tapping into cosmic reserves before being sent into the sun. She was tapping into MORE cosmic reserves after being sent into the sun. And she was tapping into even more cosmic reserves after coming back from the dead the 3rd time in Here Comes Tommorrow.

She's was tapping into cosmic reserves throughout Morrisons entire run that's how Morrison explained Jeans TK returning as well. As each issue went by she tapped into it more and more.

Furthermore Morrison even stated that Jean was tapping into the Phoenix Force in that Wizard Special interview of his during her encounter with Emma.

And since you love Endsong so much lets look at the Phoenix Force...remember that line what is a fraction of infinite? Infinite. Which still makes that a very impressive feat.




But as I stated before she was NOT a COSMIC BEING when she fought or should I say beat Emma what part of that don't you understand your trying to say just because she was tapping into her Phoenix potential she had become a cosmic being which makes no sense don't try to use the fact that she was tapping into her phoenix potential as a basis for her actually being a cosmic being. When Jean said she couldn't use that type of power yet only through DEATH can she really use that sort of power your trick would work I didn't already know about the phoenix answer me this if Jean was a COSMIC being why did she have to die(which is the natural progression of phoenix) to save herself and Wolverine. Oh and tapping into her Phoenix potential and actually being Phoenix are two different things. I was not disputing what you mentioned above but what you need to learn to differienate between Phoenix a cosmic being and Jean tapping into her phoenix potential. One other important detail you left out in YOUR explaination was that Jean had to die first to gain a bolt load of more power. Its funny that you think Emma went up against an angry COSMIC BEING as you say and was able to keep a memory from her one that she got anyways while torturing her your right very impressive feat.

Oh and if you really think I'm wrong ask anyone who's read that little cat-fight between Emma and Jean. If at the time was Jean a COSMIC BEING she what they'll tell ya. Better yet I'll make a thread about it.

Originally posted by celestialbodies
But as I stated before she was NOT a COSMIC BEING when she fought or should I say beat Emma what part of that don't you understand your trying to say just because she was tapping into her Phoenix potential she had become a cosmic being which makes no sense don't try to use the fact that she was tapping into her phoenix potential as a basis for her actually being a cosmic being. When Jean said she couldn't use that type of power yet only through DEATH can she really use that sort of power your trick would work I didn't already know about the phoenix answer me this if Jean was a COSMIC being why did she have to die(which is the natural progression of phoenix) to save herself and Wolverine. Oh and tapping into her Phoenix potential and actually being Phoenix are two different things. I was not disputing what you mentioned above but what you need to learn to differienate between Phoenix a cosmic being and Jean tapping into her phoenix potential. One other important detail you left out in YOUR explaination was that Jean had to die first to gain a bolt load of more power. Its funny that you think Emma went up against an angry COSMIC BEING as you say and was able to keep a memory from her one that she got anyways while torturing her your right very impressive feat.

You did not get Grant Morrisons X-Men at all did you? All those comments about her "Not being human" at the beginning of the arc?" Her Telekinesis returning etc...

She was tapping into cosmic reserves that makes her a cosmic being, she was just tapping into more and more reserves as the arc went on. Surfer taps into the power cosmic that makes him a cosmic being.

Do you even understand what Grant Morrison meant by Phoenix Potential? That is the potential to Host the Phoenix...it's Jean's mutation to be able to host the Phoenix Force it's written into her genes. Just like it's Rachels and the entire Grey Family. Jean is the Host the Force is most attached to.(Well that's what it was until Brubaker and Claremont both gave contradicting stories about the PF)

Jean tapping into cosmic reserves which you even admit makes her a cosmic being. Jean channeling the Phoenix consciousness makes her a cosmic being. Rachel was still considered a cosmic being when she hosted the Force and it limited it's power to the extent wheres Thor could punk her.

Your reasoning is moot, Jean had to die TWICE in Morrions run. If that was the case why did she have to die against Xorn. Which is AFTER being hurled into the sun. She was cosmic throughout his run, at the beginning her telekinesis came back stronger then ever, she slowly started tapping into it more on more until she was channeling a fire effect and the Phoenix Consciousness. She forsaw the destruction of 616 thanks to Sublime. Oh and do realize that the Cosmic Being Phoenix you're talking about died of a heart attack. Why did she have to die? She had to die to increase her power level, she also had to die against Xorn as well and this time he shattered the Force into a billion pieces prolonging her return.

Jean was a cosmic being throughout the entire run of Morrisons as she was tapping into it's reserves throughout his run. She was channeling the Phoenix Consciousness throughout his run.

Your point is ridiculous, you're trying to argue about semantics here, Jean was more powerful when she died the first time in Morrisons run, she was even more powerful when she died the second time in Morrisons run. Doesn't mean she wasn't cosmic before dying as she was channeling both the Phoenix Consciousness and Tapping into Cosmic Reserves of Energy.

It's not that funny, I never said she'd beat Phoenix I said it was impressive given the fact that Jean is a cosmic being channeling Cosmic Reserves. And yes it's very impressive that she halted for whatever minute fraction of time that was it's very impressive.

Oh and if you find that hard to believe Morrison said that Xavier would beat Phoenix Force Jean in that very same interview.

Oh and funny enough the reason why she had to die before was in the issue you were quoting from on that very same page. Jean had to die because the Phoenix burns away what doesn't work...NXM #148. She tells Logan:

"The Phoenix isn't like that Logan...it's more like...it burns away what doesn't work. It eats planets and stars and if I get to close it replaces me."

Then Logan asks why would it allow her to be killed and she says maybe it's judging her too. She also says that she can't find the Phoenix any where now.(Which explains why she couldn't fly through space, it abandoned her, she needed to die there because she was defective.)

Logan Kills her and the Phoenix consciousness is permanently released. (NXM #150)

She had to die because she wasn't doing her job, she was becoming to attached to the world. So again she was a cosmic being before that, when the consciousness was whispering to her all the time and she was tapping into cosmic reserves. And she was a cosmic being after that once she wasn't doing what she was supposed to do and the consciousness had to take over. (The consciouness is the black speech bubble with white font by the way. Which if you noticed appeared through out Morrisons run and allowed her to pull off certain power feats.)

She needed to die the second time because the Universe needed fixing.

Oh and she didn't get the memory in the end from Emma, Emma blocked her. She had to get it from Scott. (Stop looking at the pretty pictures and read some of the text.)

Jean wins
Rachael wins

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Oh and funny enough the reason why she had to die before was in the issue you were quoting from on that very same page. Jean had to die because the Phoenix burns away what doesn't work...NXM #148. She tells Logan:

"The Phoenix isn't like that Logan...it's more like...it burns away what doesn't work. It eats planets and stars and if I get to close it replaces me."

Then Logan asks why would it allow her to be killed and she says maybe it's judging her too. She also says that she can't find the Phoenix any where now.(Which explains why she couldn't fly through space, it abandoned her, she needed to die there because she was defective.)

Logan Kills her and the Phoenix consciousness is permanently released. (NXM #150)

She had to die because she wasn't doing her job, she was becoming to attached to the world. So again she was a cosmic being before that, when the consciousness was whispering to her all the time and she was tapping into cosmic reserves. And she was a cosmic being after that once she wasn't doing what she was supposed to do and the consciousness had to take over. (The consciouness is the black speech bubble with white font by the way. Which if you noticed appeared through out Morrisons run and allowed her to pull off certain power feats.)

She needed to die the second time because the Universe needed fixing.

Oh and she didn't get the memory in the end from Emma, Emma blocked her. She had to get it from Scott. (Stop looking at the pretty pictures and read some of the text.)



You know what you win because for some reason you either think Jean as a cosmic being whom was pissed with Emma isn't that skilled or Emma's just that good do you know how ridiculous you sound by saying Emma took on a pissed Cosmic being Jean and was able to keep a memory from her even though she was being tortured along the way you believe what you want I'm through trying to explain to you your right Emma fought Cosmic Being Jean and with-held a memory from her you happy now maybe you want a cookie. Oh and by the way what second time did Jean die because I thought but maybe I'm wrong she ascended into the WHR. And that nonsense about her not doing her job is your assumption a wrong one I might add maybe you should try re-reading the comics because as Jean has stated before she must die first to become a phoenix.

Originally posted by celestialbodies
You know what you win because for some reason you either think Jean as a cosmic being whom was pissed with Emma isn't that skilled or Emma's just that good do you know how ridiculous you sound by saying Emma took on a pissed Cosmic being Jean and was able to keep a memory from her even though she was being tortured along the way you believe what you want I'm through trying to explain to you your right Emma fought Cosmic Being Jean and with-held a memory from her you happy now maybe you want a cookie.

You have no argument therefore whine whine whine all you want. It doesn't change the fact that it happened and you didn't even realize it and it yes it's impressive. It's not the first time she's done something like this. Emma managed to mask herself from Xavier and Green Phoenix in Uncanny X-Men #131 after she escaped, they both thought she died in the explosion she caused with her psi-bolt.



When Xorn killed here. Do you know what the WHR is it's where the dead go in the X-Universe. It was explained to Jean in Classic X-Men. And in the What if Vulcan was Phoenix. And Kid Omega also went there.



Not my assumption, that was the whole storyline for Jean in Morrisons X-Men. The more Jean tapped into the cosmic reserves the more she lost her humanity she had to give it all up in order to save her friends she had to water the world with her hearts blood and let go the irony in it all is that what she did was display the best humanity had to offer. It's in Here Comes Tommorrow.

She became to attached she finally lets go there and it's in NXM where Jean explains to Wolverine why the Phoenix would allow her to die and how and why it would replace her. And as I mentioned before Jean also states that she can't find the Phoenix anywhere and that it might also be testing her.

It's also in that very same issue, she starts wondering about Scott. Scott is why she's so attached to this world.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
You did not get Grant Morrisons X-Men at all did you? All those comments about her "Not being human" at the beginning of the arc?" Her Telekinesis returning etc...

She was tapping into cosmic reserves that makes her a cosmic being, she was just tapping into more and more reserves as the arc went on. Surfer taps into the power cosmic that makes him a cosmic being.

Do you even understand what Grant Morrison meant by Phoenix Potential? That is the potential to Host the Phoenix...it's Jean's mutation to be able to host the Phoenix Force it's written into her genes. Just like it's Rachels and the entire Grey Family. Jean is the Host the Force is most attached to.(Well that's what it was until Brubaker and Claremont both gave contradicting stories about the PF)

Jean tapping into cosmic reserves which you even admit makes her a cosmic being. Jean channeling the Phoenix consciousness makes her a cosmic being. Rachel was still considered a cosmic being when she hosted the Force and it limited it's power to the extent wheres Thor could punk her.

Your reasoning is moot, Jean had to die TWICE in Morrions run. If that was the case why did she have to die against Xorn. Which is AFTER being hurled into the sun. She was cosmic throughout his run, at the beginning her telekinesis came back stronger then ever, she slowly started tapping into it more on more until she was channeling a fire effect and the Phoenix Consciousness. She forsaw the destruction of 616 thanks to Sublime. Oh and do realize that the Cosmic Being Phoenix you're talking about died of a heart attack. Why did she have to die? She had to die to increase her power level, she also had to die against Xorn as well and this time he shattered the Force into a billion pieces prolonging her return.

Jean was a cosmic being throughout the entire run of Morrisons as she was tapping into it's reserves throughout his run. She was channeling the Phoenix Consciousness throughout his run.

Your point is ridiculous, you're trying to argue about semantics here, Jean was more powerful when she died the first time in Morrisons run, she was even more powerful when she died the second time in Morrisons run. Doesn't mean she wasn't cosmic before dying as she was channeling both the Phoenix Consciousness and Tapping into Cosmic Reserves of Energy.

It's not that funny, I never said she'd beat Phoenix I said it was impressive given the fact that Jean is a cosmic being channeling Cosmic Reserves. And yes it's very impressive that she halted for whatever minute fraction of time that was it's very impressive.

Oh and if you find that hard to believe Morrison said that Xavier would beat Phoenix Force Jean in that very same interview.


One other thing, then I'm through I've read some posts of yours and I'm just asking which version of Jean are you implying versus Emma. Because please tell me that your love for Emma is not so great that you'd cripple Jean in order for others to admit Emma would win. Because in the debate between Cosmic flame and you, you said something along the lines of "And that is why I said Emma could win against Pre-retcon(s) Jean...I already know that the Current Marvel Jean would beat Emma any day in a telepathic battle....however a Jean who is so crippled in feats and experience and skill and training etc..i.e. the one before the genetic embedding and all those cool upgrades that make her so powerful i.e. the telepathy boost, the 12 year future training etc... should be easily taken down.... why would you say that sounds like spite to me but again just my opinion.

Originally posted by celestialbodies
One other thing, then I'm through I've read some posts of yours and I'm just asking which version of Jean are you implying versus Emma. Because please tell me that your love for Emma is not so great that you'd cripple Jean in order for others to admit Emma would win. Because in the debate between Cosmic flame and you, you said something along the lines of "And that is why I said Emma could win against Pre-retcon(s) Jean...I already know that the Current Marvel Jean would beat Emma any day in a telepathic battle....however a Jean who is so crippled in feats and experience and skill and training etc..i.e. the one before the genetic embedding and all those cool upgrades that make her so powerful i.e. the telepathy boost, the 12 year future training etc... should be easily taken down.... why would you say that sounds like spite to me but again just my opinion.

Any Jean who is not tapping into the Phoenix Force would be taken down by Emma Frost.

Jean isn't used on these boards much because her power history is more convoluted then Psylockes. And the majority of posters on this board go by feats. Jean sans Phoenix is a death trap for anyone on these boards as she lacks feats.

Pre-retcon Jean as in the one who got taken down by Exodus in the Fall of Avalon and who at the time had no attachement to the Phoenix until the retcon would be taken down by Emma.

Jean wins.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
You have no argument therefore whine whine whine all you want. It doesn't change the fact that it happened and you didn't even realize it and it yes it's impressive. It's not the first time she's done something like this. Emma managed to mask herself from Xavier and Green Phoenix in Uncanny X-Men #131 after she escaped, they both thought she died in the explosion she caused with her psi-bolt.



When Xorn killed here. Do you know what the WHR is it's where the dead go in the X-Universe. It was explained to Jean in Classic X-Men. And in the What if Vulcan was Phoenix. And Kid Omega also went there.



Not my assumption, that was the whole storyline for Jean in Morrisons X-Men. The more Jean tapped into the cosmic reserves the more she lost her humanity she had to give it all up in order to save her friends she had to water the world with her hearts blood and let go the irony in it all is that what she did was display the best humanity had to offer. It's in Here Comes Tommorrow.

She became to attached she finally lets go there and it's in NXM where Jean explains to Wolverine why the Phoenix would allow her to die and how and why it would replace her. And as I mentioned before Jean also states that she can't find the Phoenix anywhere and that it might also be testing her.

It's also in that very same issue, she starts wondering about Scott. Scott is why she's so attached to this world.



Whine about what your the one so in love with Miss Frost (who by the way I have no problem with). To think she took on a Cosmic Being and withheld a memory, well by your logic good for her. And actually the dead in the X-Universe do not go to the WHR only those with Phoenix potential or those chosen such as those dark phoenix murdered where brought there. And I think a couple of others but certainly not all the dead in the X-universe. And technically they aren't dead their beyond death, time, and space.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Any Jean who is not tapping into the Phoenix Force would be taken down by Emma Frost.

Jean isn't used on these boards much because her power history is more convoluted then Psylockes. And the majority of posters on this board go by feats. Jean sans Phoenix is a death trap for anyone on these boards as she lacks feats.

Pre-retcon Jean as in the one who got taken down by Exodus in the Fall of Avalon and who at the time had no attachement to the Phoenix until the retcon would be taken down by Emma.



So why use that version of Jean(comment not directed at you just saying). I have no problem with admitting a crippled Jean or should I say a w/o any experience and training would lose against Emma I mean how could she win.

Originally posted by celestialbodies
So why use that version of Jean(comment not directed at you just saying). I have no problem with admitting a crippled Jean or should I say a w/o any experience and training would lose against Emma I mean how could she win.

I'm not talking about a Jean and lack of experience, I remember that Bloodties occured in the UXM #300's and the Fall of Avalon which took place in X-Men v2 some what after that...that Jean would lose IMO before the re-retcon.

Because a Jean that could tap into the PF would wipe the flaw with most characters.

That's why Jean threads don't work. I did not create this thread btw.

Originally posted by celestialbodies
Whine about what your the one so in love with Miss Frost (who by the way I have no problem with). To think she took on a Cosmic Being and withheld a memory, well by your logic good for her. And actually the dead in the X-Universe do not go to the WHR only those with Phoenix potential or those chosen such as those dark phoenix murdered where brought there. And I think a couple of others but certainly not all the dead in the X-universe. And technically they aren't dead their beyond death, time, and space.

I'm not going to argue about what happened on panel in NXM #139 it's clear as day what happened.

The abstract Death Explained it to Jean in Classic X-Men that the WHR is place where the dead go. It has a dual function it acts a hospital and an afterlife for souls. Jean went there the first time she died. Kid Omega who was clinically dead went there as well in Morrisons run.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
I'm not talking about a Jean and lack of experience, I remember that Bloodties occuring in the UXM #300's...that Jean would lose IMO before the re-retcon.

Because a Jean that could tap into the PF would wipe the flaw with most characters.

That's why Jean threads don't work. I did not create this thread btw.



I'm not going to argue about what happened on panel in UXM #139 it's clear as day what happened.

The abstract Death Explained it to Jean in Classic X-Men that the WHR is place where the dead go. Kid Omega who was clinically dead went there as well in Morrisons run.



I get what your talking about concerning which Jean even though i think she'd still win it's just my opinion. Just as you think Emma would win but to be honest when Jean does come back I kinda wish she'd comeback w/o the Phoenix only because they tend to kill her off. But to have Jean and Emma in a training session would be kinda cool.

Originally posted by celestialbodies
I get what your talking about concerning which Jean even though i think she'd still win it's just my opinion. Just as you think Emma would win but to be honest when Jean does come back I kinda wish she'd comeback w/o the Phoenix only because they tend to kill her off. But to have Jean and Emma in a training session would be kinda cool.

I'll scan the Death scans for you if you want. Although I think it's in the PF respect thread.