The 5 Highest Virtues

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Storm

New Faith
Balance by far.

"Balance is best in all things." - The Odyssey

TheSpinner
I think 'consciousness' should be one them. Because most virtues are less likely to develop without some form of consciousness.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by TheSpinner
I think 'consciousness' should be one them. Because most virtues are less likely to develop without some form of consciousness.

If consciousness forms a virtue, than it is not a virtue itself.

That is sort of like saying "life is a virtue".

TheSpinner
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
If consciousness forms a virtue, than it is not a virtue itself.

That is sort of like saying "life is a virtue".

I did not say it forms other virtues, I merely suggested that most other virtues will not be formed without at least some from of it. For example:
how could prudence, courage or justice exist without some form of consciousness?

But if that still conflicts with the true definition of a true virtue. then I will have no reason to disagree with you.

AOR
I believe the five virtues that we find, or come to an agreement to, should be five virtues that help the person attain other virtues. For exmple, the top of my list virtue would be Charity. Because with Charity I can also excel in acceptance, compassion, cooperativeness, courteousness, fairness, fidelity, and so on...

So here's me:

1).Charity
2).Faith
3).Understanding
4).Wisdom
5).Self-discipline

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by TheSpinner
I did not say it forms other virtues, I merely suggested that most other virtues will not be formed without at least some from of it. For example:
how could prudence, courage or justice exist without some form of consciousness?

But if that still conflicts with the true definition of a true virtue. then I will have no reason to disagree with you.


I understand your point that those virtues need consciousness to even exist. But that does not actually make conciousness a virtue itself.

Consciousness occurs without our permission or desire. (unless you bring up suicide or self-induced brain damage, but for the sake of simplicity, let's not go there yet)

Any virtue is something that a person either wants to have or is proud to have developed. You can't WANT consciousness if you are already conscious, and you can't intentionally develop conciousness.

TheSpinner
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I understand your point that those virtues need consciousness to even exist. But that does not actually make conciousness a virtue itself.

Consciousness occurs without our permission or desire. (unless you bring up suicide or self-induced brain damage, but for the sake of simplicity, let's not go there yet)

Any virtue is something that a person either wants to have or is proud to have developed. You can't WANT consciousness if you are already conscious, and you can't intentionally develop conciousness.

Sorry Lord Urizen! we must have been engaged in the art of arguing past each other, apparently you are arguing the "Phenomenal consciousness" while I am arguing the "access consciousness" which indeed is something to be proud of having developed.

All living creatures experience the phenomenal consciousness with no exception. but not all of them experience or develop "access consciousness". and even among humans some of us develop their "access consciousness" well beyond the rest of us. And that is because their own strong desire to do so. And yes! they could be proud of it and they should.

Albert Einstein and I have experienced the same exact phenomenal consciousness but he had a bigger desire and managed to develop his access consciousness well beyond mine above all in certain areas. And he was proud of it and so am I.

Do I still violate the true definition of virtue? or should we call it "stalemate"? wink

Always a pleasure to argue with smart people like yourself, it can only help me be smarter. wink

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by TheSpinner
Sorry Lord Urizen! we must have been engaged in the art of arguing past each other, apparently you are arguing the "Phenomenal consciousness" while I am arguing the "access consciousness" which indeed is something to be proud of having developed.

All living creatures experience the phenomenal consciousness with no exception. but not all of them experience or develop "access consciousness". and even among humans some of us develop their "access consciousness" well beyond the rest of us. And that is because their own strong desire to do so. And yes! they could be proud of it and they should.

Albert Einstein and I have experienced the same exact phenomenal consciousness but he had a bigger desire and managed to develop his access consciousness well beyond mine above all in certain areas. And he was proud of it and so am I.

Do I still violate the true definition of virtue? or should we call it "stalemate"? wink

Always a pleasure to argue with smart people like yourself, it can only help me be smarter. wink


Sorry. I was confused as to which "Consciousness" you were referring to.


I am not too familiar with the idea of Access Conciousness. Does it have to do with being able to access the subconcious or unconcious part of our mind, as oppose to only relying on our conscious mind?

I do beleive very strongly that a human being can acheive conciousness superior to the standard consciousness that we were all born with.

A virtue's true definition is almost irrelevent here. People take definitions of ideas and concepts all the time, and make it their own.

Perhaps I often to tap into my "Access Consciousness" without realizing it. I find that I often know things and form opinions without doing too much research on the specific subject first....perhaps I am accessing some sort of collective conciousness, going past my individual consciousness...ahh....im having a brain fart now lol

Ne ways, if you have developed your Access Consciousness, then yes you should be very proud, and it should definately count as a virtue as well. wink

Mindship
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I am not too familiar with the idea of Access Conciousness. Does it have to do with being able to access the subconcious or unconcious part of our mind, as oppose to only relying on our conscious mind?


First to address the thread topic: I've always considered Self-Sacrifice (giving of oneself, helping others) to be one of the highest--if not the highest--virtue, followed closely by Honesty.

That said and done...

"Access consciousness" (AC) is one of those terms which, depending on context, can have different meanings. In meditation circles, it refers to the first "opening up" of the mind to the next level (typically experienced as sharp, effortless focus accompanied by dream-like imagery), wherein solutions to problems or recognition of patterns is elucidated more clearly than in ordinary, linear, rational consciousness. One is accessing one's preconscious and subconscious.

But one doesn't have to meditate to access. One can access the deeper layers of the mind sometimes just by talking to it. For example: I like to write, but sometimes I can't find the right word / sentence / starting point. So I simply say something like, "Okay, subconscious, I need a word / sentence / starting point for this story." Typically, anywhere from a few minutes to several days later, what I was looking for will come to me, seemingly "out of the blue."

I would call AC more a skill than a virtue.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Mindship
First to address the thread topic: I've always considered Self-Sacrifice (giving of oneself, helping others) to be one of the highest--if not the highest--virtue, followed closely by Honesty.

That said and done...

"Access consciousness" (AC) is one of those terms which, depending on context, can have different meanings. In meditation circles, it refers to the first "opening up" of the mind to the next level (typically experienced as sharp, effortless focus accompanied by dream-like imagery), wherein solutions to problems or recognition of patterns is elucidated more clearly than in ordinary, linear, rational consciousness. One is accessing one's preconscious and subconscious.

But one doesn't have to meditate to access. One can access the deeper layers of the mind sometimes just by talking to it. For example: I like to write, but sometimes I can't find the right word / sentence / starting point. So I simply say something like, "Okay, subconscious, I need a word / sentence / starting point for this story." Typically, anywhere from a few minutes to several days later, what I was looking for will come to me, seemingly "out of the blue."

I would call AC more a skill than a virtue.




Okay so I was kind of on the money there. It's accessing your subconcious mind.



Yeah, I wouldn't define it as a virtue either, it's more of a skill or method.

TheSpinner
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Sorry. I was confused as to which "Consciousness" you were referring to.


I am not too familiar with the idea of Access Conciousness. Does it have to do with being able to access the subconcious or unconcious part of our mind, as oppose to only relying on our conscious mind?

I do beleive very strongly that a human being can acheive conciousness superior to the standard consciousness that we were all born with.
wink

Phenomenal consciousness is what we all have as long as we perceive ourself as existing in an environment and our relation to it. It is the experience itself. Access consciousness is the the processing of the things in the experience to try to understand them and may be discover their meaning. And you definitely have no control over Phenomenal consciousness but you do have control over the development of access consciousness. and when you do you definitely could be proud. for example many people are conscious (aware) of death. we all have that experience. but some of us try to understand more about death: why and how does it happen? do we really need it? What would be the consequences, if there was no death and our resources are the same as they are now? should we cause it for another being? should we cause it for ourselves? .....

What I meant in my original post is: for example in order for you to have the virtue of Justice, you have to have some kind and level of rational thinking.You need to be able to relatively process correctly the information on which you will base your act of justice.

I hope this helps.... but you can definitely find more articulate articles about it if you search the net.

Alliance
Here are mine, not in any order:

Dicipline, Responsibility, Creativity, Pursuit of Knoledge, Passion

and btw Storm one of the best threads ive seen in a while.

debbiejo
I agree, which would be love.

Alliance
To me that falls under Responsibility (SubSection: Maitenance of the Species)

I think responsibility is a broader term that covers more values.

Eis
For me, in no particular order, it'd have to be: Creativity, curiosity, determination, wisdom and confidence.

Alliance
the say curiosity killed the cat...

debbiejo
Curiosity cures the mind..........The church killed the cat.

Alliance
curiosity implies nosyness and not necessariyl action....my "pursit of knowledge" i think is a better terminology.

debbiejo
Originally posted by Alliance
curiosity implies nosyness and not necessariyl action....my "pursit of knowledge" i think is a better terminology. Soooooooooo I curiosity not worth taking??? if you imply nosyness???

Alliance
mainly: curiosity does not imply action.

debbiejo
yet you said noisiness...........meaning???.....meaning nonsense???

Regret
honest
true
chaste
benevolent
virtuous
charitable

Sorry listed 6, couldn't decide which I'd eliminate

Alliance
Originally posted by Regret
honest
true
chaste
benevolent
virtuous
charitable

Sorry listed 6, couldn't decide which I'd eliminate
Then your list is moot stick out tongue

Regret
Originally posted by Alliance
Then your list is moot stick out tongue

Still, it's my list of high priority ones, perhaps given the intent of the thread you guys can help me shorten it by one wink Although, Id say it wasn't moot in the relevant sense, only in the arguable sense

Alliance
Correct, but then I argue.

IMO...
Chastity is against your antural role as a human.
Honest and true are redundant.
Virtuous is arbitrary, depending on your beliefs.

Regret
Originally posted by Alliance
Correct, but then I argue.

IMO...
Chastity is against your antural role as a human.
Honest and true are redundant.
Virtuous is arbitrary, depending on your beliefs.

K, we drop chastity, true and virtuous, down to 3. I need 2 now

Alliance
Athiesm and Intellectualism? stick out tongue

Regret
Originally posted by Alliance
Athiesm and Intellectualism? stick out tongue

Atheism...not so much

Atheism
Def.
1)
a. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
b. The doctrine that there is no God or gods.
2) Godlessness; immorality.

The immorality part of the definition drops it.

Intellectualism
Def.
1) Exercise or application of the intellect.
2) Devotion to exercise or development of the intellect.

I think Intellectualism would work

Alliance
Athiests are only immoral to those who thing that their religion is absolute. I classify that under social relatavism.

AOR
Originally posted by AOR
I believe the five virtues that we find, or come to an agreement to, should be five virtues that help the person attain other virtues. For exmple, the top of my list virtue would be Charity. Because with Charity I can also excel in acceptance, compassion, cooperativeness, courteousness, fairness, fidelity, and so on...

So here's me:

1).Charity
2).Faith
3).Understanding
4).Wisdom
5).Self-discipline

Alliance
I'd argue with faith.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Regret
Atheism...not so much

Atheism
Def.
1)
a. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
b. The doctrine that there is no God or gods.
2) Godlessness; immorality.

Oh Gosh.... roll eyes (sarcastic)

I just LOVE your bias definition of Athiesm, as if ALL Athiests are immoral.

Many religious people are just as immoral, if not MORE immoral.....some people who do not beleive in God, are more "godly" than those who do beleive in God.

If you are going to present an actual definition, present a truthful and universal one, not a biased or one-sided one ok? wink

Alliance
Oh wow. You came out harder than I did laughing out loud

Regret
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Oh Gosh.... roll eyes (sarcastic)

I just LOVE your bias definition of Athiesm, as if ALL Athiests are immoral.

Many religious people are just as immoral, if not MORE immoral.....some people who do not beleive in God, are more "godly" than those who do beleive in God.

If you are going to present an actual definition, present a truthful and universal one, not a biased or one-sided one ok? wink

It wasn't an attack at atheists. The definition leads to a negative attribute, another term is needed that does not have the possibility of negative connotation. Interpretation messes with most writings, so a term that could be interpreted as such should be avoided.

Alliance
THe only reason athiesm has a negative connotation is beacue religous people have given it one and assciated atheism with immorality

Its no different than peopel associating mormonism with polygamy, even though its not true smile

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Regret
It wasn't an attack at atheists. The definition leads to a negative attribute, another term is needed that does not have the possibility of negative connotation. Interpretation messes with most writings, so a term that could be interpreted as such should be avoided.

Then why include that definition????

Define Atheism for what it truly is: A lack of beleif in a God or Gods.

Why bring up the immoral definition, when that is purely subjective and not entirely truthful?

Regret
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Then why include that definition????

Define Atheism for what it truly is: A lack of beleif in a God or Gods.

Why bring up the immoral definition, when that is purely subjective and not entirely truthful?

Because it is a definition of the term. I do not necessarily agree with the it, but it is there. Too much history is based in interpretation to leave an ambiguity present. My decision to remove chastity was due to its definition. Part of the definition is "a personal integrity", as well as "purity in conduct and intention" and "restraint and simplicity in design or expression". But it connotes sexual abstinence which is not a definition that I see fitting with my view of the 5 top virtues, even alliance jumped on the sexual definition and not the one I meant. Atheism is tied to that definition, and like chastity it is a term that could be interpreted in a manner that I would not be intending it. Above that, if it did not include the immorality part it would still fail as I don't believe a persons stance on religion is a necessary virtue.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Regret
Because it is a definition of the term. I do not necessarily agree with the it, but it is there. Too much history is based in interpretation to leave an ambiguity present. My decision to remove chastity was due to its definition. Part of the definition is "a personal integrity", as well as "purity in conduct and intention" and "restraint and simplicity in design or expression". But it connotes sexual abstinence which is not a definition that I see fitting with my view of the 5 top virtues, even alliance jumped on the sexual definition and not the one I meant. Atheism is tied to that definition, and like chastity it is a term that could be interpreted in a manner that I would not be intending it. Above that, if it did not include the immorality part it would still fail as I don't believe a persons stance on religion is a necessary virtue.

Despite historical definition, why include it here? Why now, when it is made clear that Atheism does not equal immorality, the same way being religious does not equal absolute morality?

And I'll agree that being religious, or NOT being religious is not a virtue. wink

Regret
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Despite historical definition, why include it here? Why now, when it is made clear that Atheism does not equal immorality, the same way being religious does not equal absolute morality?

And I'll agree that being religious, or NOT being religious is not a virtue. wink

My reason for including that definition is because even here there are people that may read the post and not know that it is made clear that Atheism does not equal immorality, the same way being religious does not equal absolute morality. There are those that may read it and not understand, and thus interpret different than those of us that have frequented the forum would.

Alliance
I originally posted athiesm an inflamatory joke.

Regret
Originally posted by Alliance
I originally posted athiesm an inflamatory joke.

Yeah, I knew it, only responded cause I was bored wink made for a bit of Urizen ire though, so I'm glad I did it. Created a bit of debate for a bit there, kept me occupied big grin

Alliance
yup...me too. Still...he is correct. Religious people viewing athiests as immoral is a common problem.

Regret
Yes, it is, but they will. It's the same as their dislike for just about everything not holding to their own brand of religion. Atheists aren't alone in it, the immoral aspect usually comes up when discussing many varying beliefs. My religion has views on polygamy that are considered immoral wink Although currently we are told not to practice polygamy, and doing so at this time is considered a sin.

Alliance
Originally posted by Regret
Yes, it is, but they will. It's the same as their dislike for just about everything not holding to their own brand of religion. Atheists aren't alone in it, the immoral aspect usually comes up when discussing many varying beliefs.
Yeah, but peoples of other fiaths are often accepted before people without faith. I feel we are usually on the lower end of the scale.

Storm
In no particular order:
justice
empathy
wisdom
moderation
responsibility

Eis
Originally posted by Alliance
curiosity implies nosyness and not necessariyl action....my "pursit of knowledge" i think is a better terminology.
Curiosity doesn't necessarily mean noisiness though, not in my definition of it anyhow.

Alliance
Originally posted by Storm
In no particular order:

moderation


look at that...a mod asking for moderation laughing

YOu can certainly tell a lot about peoples chracters this way. I'll keep this exercise in mind....
Originally posted by Eis
Curiosity doesn't necessarily mean noisiness though, not in my definition of it anyhow.
I think this clarifies my view:
Originally posted by Alliance
mainly: curiosity does not imply action.
And I am a man of action...hence my reaasoning of whi I feel "pursuit of knowledge" is superior to simply curiosity.

Storm
But would anyone come to pursuit of knowledge without curiosity?

Regret
Originally posted by Storm
But would anyone come to pursuit of knowledge without curiosity?

I would use the term interest. It is an accurate definition of curiosity that includes nosiness, or rather a desire to know about people or things that do not concern oneself. Read the definition of interest, this definition I think embodies the intent behind including curiosity. It also fits Alliance's view as well wink

Perhaps not, upon further research I found that it does include the term curiosity in some dictionaries.

AOR
Originally posted by Alliance
I'd argue with faith.

Than trust? Or hope? no, hope's not a virtue. or is it? it's not on the list, sould storm be wrong?

Trust rather than faith, but than again is trust really a virture?

debbiejo
Originally posted by Storm
But would anyone come to pursuit of knowledge without curiosity? EXACTLY!!!!!!!

Alliance owes debbiejo an apology........again.........first the box thing, now this......hmmm stick out tongue

AOR
Originally posted by Storm
But would anyone come to pursuit of knowledge without curiosity?

Ambition, dream, the will to want to be better. The list can be endless with the pursuit of knowledge. I guess the ideal pursuit of knowlege, is done out of the love of learning. Even then, it isn't real curiosity...

debbiejo
It starts with Imagination which leads to curiosity which leads to exploration which leads to Knowledge..

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." Einstein.

"If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?"
- Albert Einstein

Albert Einstein
The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing.

AOR
Originally posted by debbiejo
It starts with Imagination which leads to curiosity which leads to exploration which leads to Knowledge..

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." Einstein.

"If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?"
- Albert Einstein

Albert Einstein
The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing.

And where's Einstein now?

Alliance
Einstein is not the know all...he's a pop culture figure. He royally failed quantum mech...sad...in hindsightsmile. Einsteins views are not always clear cut either.

In answer to storm/regret/debbie...I dont think you have to be curious about something to learn about it. I think just knowing somehing, even if you don't give a messed, is superior.

Then again, "the pursuit of knowledge" can imply a general curiosity about everything. It knowing just to know, but mandates actions. I know many people who would like to know things but sit on their fat arsess and do nothing about it.

I believe interest would be a synonym with curosity in this case.

Eis
Originally posted by Alliance
Einstein is not the know all...he's a pop culture figure. He royally failed quantum mech...sad...in hindsightsmile. Einsteins views are not always clear cut either.

In answer to storm/regret/debbie...I dont think you have to be curious about something to learn about it. I think just knowing somehing, even if you don't give a messed, is superior.

Then again, "the pursuit of knowledge" can imply a general curiosity about everything. It knowing just to know, but mandates actions. I know many people who would like to know things but sit on their fat arsess and do nothing about it.

I believe interest would be a synonym with curosity in this case.
You don't need to get "off your fat arse" to learn about things anymore...

Alliance
well, you have to click a few times, get the motivation to start your borwser...ummm embarrasment

you dont need much motivation, but then again you never have. There still is a lot more in a college library than there is online. (hopefully not for long)

AOR
So when do we start deciding?

Alliance
I've decided?

Storm

Alliance

AOR

Alliance
laughing

debbiejo
mad

Alliance
*meh* I couldnt resist. Sexism is so ingrained culture its rediculous.

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