Whose the most EVIL ?

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Lord Urizen
Out of all these evil villians, who is the cruelest and most evil of ALL?




1) Lawbringer QZTR from Negation

2) Lucifer Morningstar from Vertigo

3) Mammon from Spawn

4) Billy Kincaid from Spawn

5) The Joker from Batman

6) Adolf Hitler from Captain America/Red Skull issues

7) Animora from the Mystic /The First

8) Dark Pheonix from X-Men

9) Goblin Queen from X-Men

10)Carnage from Spiderman

11)Anyone else you can think of

Draco69
I don't really consider Luciefer evil. He's more of anti-hero. He DID create a universe where people were free to do what they want and live forever....

Goblin Queen was a mean b*tch. She was willing to sacrifice her own son to a horde of bloodthirsty demons....

King_Mungi
Mephisto and Llan are pretty evil

Darth Macabre
Sinister...He'll do anything for a good dna sample.

badabing
Dr. Evil stick out tongue

Draco69
Originally posted by Darth Macabre
Sinister...He'll do anything for a good dna sample.

He should just work at a sperm bank then.

Or at least prowl the X-Men's garbage for used condoms.

He's rather embarassing compared to CSI. They get DNA samples from friggin cigarettes.

Sinister on the hand needed to start a massacre.....

batdude123
Joker

Darth Macabre
Originally posted by Draco69
He should just work at a sperm bank then.

Or at least prowl the X-Men's garbage for used condoms.

He's rather embarassing compared to CSI. They get DNA samples from friggin cigarettes.

Sinister on the hand needed to start a massacre.....

lol He probably has worked at a sperm bank before.

Whittdawg92
joker...I don't think crazy people count as evil.

batdude123
Originally posted by Whittdawg92
joker...I don't think crazy people count as evil.

What are you talking about? Joker is VERY evil.

lilnutta12
i cant think
joker
darkseid wat he does 2 ppl
saw - movie
hugo strange
scarecrow - in book wer he kills strange
mr.zsasz - he kills ppl in the most disturbing ways i can think of

e.g he killed the mum by stabbin her and put the news paper over her head to make it look like she was readin it

he stabbed sum1 in the head and put the hat over his hed to cover the hat sum disturbin sh*t

Big Sexy
Billy Kincaid from Spawn is definitely up there. Child molesting/ murdering demons/ghosts are definitely up there.

Big Sexy
Originally posted by batdude123
What are you talking about? Joker is VERY evil. I know Joker is evil and hes got the murdering thing down but raping and killing babies, I am not sure he has gone that far. Could be wrong though.

ThePittman
For me I would have to say either QTZR or Sinister and Proteus is pretty nasty too.

who?-kid
Carnage, Joker and Darkseid.

Oh and Hitler of course. From the comics and from real life erm

Dinalfos
Ultimate Hulk comes close...

Dalak
Well he might not be a villian in the strictest sense, but in any Evil-Off there is one who should be named from Webcomics: Black Mage

I mean this guy is so horribly evil that the only thing capable or representing it was Himself. He ruled Hell for a while after ripping the spines out of everything there, he has burned a swath of destruction through an entire country simply because they were dwarves, he's orphaned the same kid 3 times, he sacificed many children for access to a massive magical attack that BURNS UP LOVE FOR POWER WHEN IT'S USED!!!!

Black Mage is the most evil.

Some Background Info (Damn no Linkies allowed newbs . . . . Just remove the *'s):

h**p://w*w.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=020928

h**p://w*w.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=031113
h**p://w*w.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=031118

h**p://w*w.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=040228
h**p://w*w.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=040320 <- I have this one signed by Brian after a convention

h**p://w*w.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=040612
h**p://w*w.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=040615
h**p://w*w.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=040617 - Too bad, as Brian has admitted many times before, the world is against Black Mage.

h**p://w*w.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=041127
he saves them with a Hadoken when the Deathtra . . .I mean Airship crashed.
h**p://w*w.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=041209

h**p://w*w.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=050901
h**p://w*w.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=050903

h**p://w*w.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=051018
h**p://w*w.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=051020
h**p://w*w.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=051022
he faked the stab under his arm, and then this happens
h**p://w*w.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=051027

batdude123
Originally posted by Big Sexy
I know Joker is evil and hes got the murdering thing down but raping and killing babies, I am not sure he has gone that far. Could be wrong though.

He's wiped out half a city before, regardless of gender or age and has also threatened to take over the world countless times. He doesn't care about anybody. He feeds all the citizens of Gotham with his toxic Joker crap and a bunch of other stuff. The guy is EVIL.

Takion
Darkseid is one. Billy Kincaid is really evil, he cuts childrens fingers of and pastes them on the wall.

Private Pion
Darkseid is the SOURCE of all evil.

Takion
Originally posted by Private Pion
Darkseid is the SOURCE of all evil.
Darkseid tore his son in half.

jinzin
ONE name to PWN them all one name to fill them (with fear), one name to OWN them all and in the darkness kill them.



ZAR-A-THOS!

even mephisto's scared shitless of that guy...

Private Pion
He also corrupted 'the purest soul in all New Genesis.'

Big Sexy
Originally posted by batdude123
He's wiped out half a city before, regardless of gender or age and has also threatened to take over the world countless times. He doesn't care about anybody. He feeds all the citizens of Gotham with his toxic Joker crap and a bunch of other stuff. The guy is EVIL. I know that but its less personal than Kincaid. I have no doubt that he is a murdering evil bastard but the time to take a child, rape, cut of their fingers, and torture them to death is evil on a very personal level and to me scarier that a guy who shoots people and releases Joker gas over them but does it from a semi-nonpersonal position. He did however murder Jason Todd bady but not (cut the baby up bad)

Juntai
Originally posted by Draco69
I don't really consider Luciefer evil. He's more of anti-hero. He DID create a universe where people were free to do what they want and live forever....

Goblin Queen was a mean b*tch. She was willing to sacrifice her own son to a horde of bloodthirsty demons.... Anything that is not God or would challenge Gods will is 'evil' according to the Bible. Lucifer is certainly that.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Juntai
Anything that is not God or would challenge Gods will is 'evil' according to the Bible. Lucifer is certainly that.

No Offense Juntai, but "Biblical Truth" has NO PLACE in comic book reality. We had this discussion already, so please...

Draco made a VERY valid point already.

Lord Urizen
Guys I also wanna add a few more people:


1) Freddy Kreuger from Avatar Comics (I think its Avatar)

2) Asteroth from Marvel's Stormbreaker

Lord Urizen
And here's my vote:


1) Urizen- his evil was so intense, strong, and influential that it caused all the people in towns for miles away to kill eachother, kill themselves, just his very presence caused all of them to lose thier goodness and become permanantly evil.

***Remeber...part of Malebolgia's plan was to release Urizen, so that when the people he influenced died, they would automatically end up in Hell to serve Hell's army.




2)Lawbringer QZTR- this dude is sadistic and cruel to the EXTREME......during a battle with the main characters, he pulled a Troll inside out, he mercilessly slaughtered almost half of the main characters in ONE comic book issie......

He has destroyed numerous worlds and wiped out many civilizations in Negation Space, had tortured countless people, he murdered the God Altwall's wife by teleporting inside her and ripping her to shreds from the inside out, and he did it pretty slow !


3)Billy Kincaid- Raped, Tortured, Murdered and Dismembered children. Hundreds of Children all over New York City..... even after he died, he came back to life as a Hell Spawn, then as a demonic ghost to do the same shit all over again.....need i say more ?

ThePittman
Another one that I thought of is Razor Fist from the Hybrid series, that dude was seriously twisted. Cutting up children and convincing them to kill their parents.

Grimm22
1. Red Skull (this guy goes beyond hitler)

2. Anti-Moniter (He killed Barry Allen sad )

3. Joker (not nessicarly evil, more insane, but he is acts are still evil)

4. Mr. Sinister

5. Darkseid

6. Thanos (created an entire planet of torture and genocide just because he could)

7. Memispho (aka Satan stick out tongue )

Lord Urizen
Oh yeah two more entries:


1) Evil Erney from Chaos Comics

2)Thanos When he was still obsessed with Death

Dalak
Originally posted by Dalak
Well he might not be a villian in the strictest sense, but in any Evil-Off there is one who should be named from Webcomics: Black Mage

I mean this guy is so horribly evil that the only thing capable or representing it was Himself. He ruled Hell for a while after ripping the spines out of everything there, he has burned a swath of destruction through an entire country simply because they were dwarves, he's orphaned the same kid 3 times, he sacificed many children for access to a massive magical attack that BURNS UP LOVE FOR POWER WHEN IT'S USED!!!!

Black Mage is the most evil.

Some Background Info (Damn no Linkies allowed newbs . . . . Just remove the *'s):

h**p://w*w.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=020928

h**p://w*w.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=031113
h**p://w*w.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=031118

h**p://w*w.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=040228
h**p://w*w.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=040320 <- I have this one signed by Brian after a convention

h**p://w*w.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=040612
h**p://w*w.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=040615
h**p://w*w.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=040617 - Too bad, as Brian has admitted many times before, the world is against Black Mage.

h**p://w*w.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=041127
he saves them with a Hadoken when the Deathtra . . .I mean Airship crashed.
h**p://w*w.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=041209

h**p://w*w.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=050901
h**p://w*w.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=050903

h**p://w*w.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=051018
h**p://w*w.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=051020
h**p://w*w.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=051022
he faked the stab under his arm, and then this happens
h**p://w*w.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=051027

Could someone please repost these links as working ones so that people might be able to witness the Evil of Black Mage easier?

Tron
Originally posted by Whittdawg92
joker...I don't think crazy people count as evil.

Like Jason Todd said, I don't think the Joker's as crazy as he lets people believe. He's a sick f*ck for the sheer sake of being a sick f*ck.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Tron
Like Jason Todd said, I don't think the Joker's as crazy as he lets people believe. He's a sick f*ck for the sheer sake of being a sick f*ck.

True, but i dont thnk he compares to Urizen or QZTR....parhaps Joker is on par with Billy Kincaid though.

Urizen Just looking into his EYE scared the SH*T outta Spawn ! And to frighten SPAWN to that extant? Spawn witnessed what kind of EVIL Urizen would unleash on Earth, and the mere sight of that vision made Spawn cry out in pain....read the issue.

Spawn had no fear of sick f*cks like Violator, Billy Kincaid, Malebolgia, KKK members, The Freak, the Curse, Tiffany, Thamuz (master of tortures may i add)

I DOUBT that a glimpse into Joker's mind would frighten Spawn that much as Spawn has already been exposed to higher evils and higher insanities.






Lawbringer QZTR- a cosmic genocidist, galaxy wide tormentor and executioner for the Negation Empire. A sick f*ck whose power can rival that of Silver Surfer's or even Thanos's own.

Ended life on countless worlds, telekinetically ripped a Troll creature inside out, tore A Goddess to shreds by teleporting inside her and clawing his way out of her body, tried to murder a mother and child (but failed, because they were unknowingly more powerful than he was), spread a prisoner's body flat across 3 continents, impaled and deformed half of the main characters in Negation....

This dude is a mass murdered on a COSMIC scale ! Joker can't compare.

Tron
True, but Urizen gets an extra point because he's supernatural, while Joker's only human, you have to take that into account.

bigbran
it deosnt matter there power level, everyone of spawns villains is sick.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by bigbran
it deosnt matter there power level, everyone of spawns villains is sick.


Yup wink

Grimm22
Originally posted by bigbran
it deosnt matter there power level, everyone of spawns villains is sick.
'
Well that is the point of Spawn stick out tongue

Sea King
how does this have this many pages hitler is easly the most evil laughing

King_Mungi
I'm suprized not one mentioned Superman ie. superdickery.com

Dalak
Originally posted by King_Mungi
I'm suprized not one mentioned Superman ie. superdickery.com

Oh he's a Primo Dick alright, just not Evil enough to be considered one of the top.

*wonders what the outcome of a "Is Black Mage More Evil Than Joker?" thread would be with objective arguing*

Decay
i think thanos should be very high on the list. hes often called mad, but his actions are very calculated and cold. hes not a maniac like the joker, and his murderous intentions go alot further than most of these people. he doesnt want to rule anything, hed rather wipe out an entire race rather than have them worship him. hes made mephisto wary of dealing with him. he even manipulated the surfer into helping him kill possibly millions of lives, just by listening to him. he teleported around showing surfer some planets, and at the end told him the surfer had already helped him by carrying bacteria from one planet to another where nobody has any resistance to it. by the time the surfer could to anything about it a large amount of the population was already dead.

but then it could be argued that he isnt evil at all. he does everything out of love, death represents a natural part of existence, and she takes the souls where they should end up, so he might not even consider it murder, just moving souls from one place to another. he has a unique perspective.

chris_64256
Lucifer he is the father of the lie the orginal serpent all of these evil beings and just evil peroid come from him death, wars, genocide etc. all of these characters you speak about are not even close...

Big Sexy
Which Lucifer do you mean, The Morningstar brother is a weird one because he is not portrayed as the evil incarnate being of the bible. Hes more of a flawed angel with too much pride and arrogance.

Juntai
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
No Offense Juntai, but "Biblical Truth" has NO PLACE in comic book reality. We had this discussion already, so please...

Draco made a VERY valid point already. I was making a valid point.

Big Sexy
Ra's al Ghoul comes to mind as to not be evil, but he is the embodiment of the phrase; the rode to hell is paved with good intentions.

Juntai
Originally posted by Big Sexy
Ra's al Ghoul comes to mind as to not be evil, but he is the embodiment of the phrase; the rode to hell is paved with good intentions. Nice.

Big Sexy
Originally posted by Juntai
Nice. Thanks big grin

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Juntai
I was making a valid point.

Wrong.

The point was not taken from any comic book fact. You simply went on religious and Biblical bias, therefore your point was totally invalid.

The Lucifer I am referring to, is the one from Vertigo Comics, and although he is evil, he is not AS evil as Urizen, QZTR, or even Joker...he is not wickedly sadist like they are.

Dalak
Some Background Info:

http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=020928

http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=031113
http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=031118

http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=040228
http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=040320 <- I have this one signed by Brian after a convention

http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=040612
http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=040615
http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=040617 - Too bad, as Brian has admitted many times before, the world is against Black Mage.

http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=041127
he saves them with a Hadoken when the Deathtra . . .I mean Airship crashed.
http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=041209

http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=050901
http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=050903

http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=051018
http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=051020
http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=051022
he faked the stab under his arm, and then this happens
http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=051027

Grimm22
Originally posted by Sea King
how does this have this many pages hitler is easly the most evil laughing

Nah, Red Skull is more evil than hitler wink

Hitler is an evil SOB who hates anyone who dosent fit his obscure look on perfection no expression

Red Skull goes beyond that.

Juntai
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Wrong.

The point was not taken from any comic book fact. You simply went on religious and Biblical bias, therefore your point was totally invalid.

The Lucifer I am referring to, is the one from Vertigo Comics, and although he is evil, he is not AS evil as Urizen, QZTR, or even Joker...he is not wickedly sadist like they are. But your human perception of good and evil, right and wrong, are taken from religious sources. Other religions, don't view murder and deceptions as 'evil' acts. I was making a very valid point. Even in the case of considering it wholly seperate from comics, I was STILL making a valid point. Don't get condecending with me. I'm the one making the post, I'll judge myself if I feel I made a valid contribution or not.

Lucifer is written as a more calculating evil, but far more evil than the likes of the characters you named. Especially since his comic, is from biblical viewpoint of good and evil. The aforementioned by myself. You see him as "free thinking", God saw him as evil and made him lord of hell. Get it? Good.

Superherovandal
Isn't there supposed to be a Satan in Spawn comics wouldn't he be more evil than Urizen?

kevdude
Lucifer in DC/Vertigo is way more evil then all of them. He rebelled against "the Creator" who made Lucifer about the most powerful being ever on par with Michael, and outdone only by The Word and God/The Presence. When Dream, sent Cain to Hell to tell Lucifer he was coming Cain had a mental breakdown just by looking at Lucifer and seeing how scary he is.

Big Sexy
Problem with this his Yahweh is not perfect. So how exactly is he even if he rebelled against a flawed God anyway?

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Juntai
But your human perception of good and evil, right and wrong, are taken from religious sources. Other religions, don't view murder and deceptions as 'evil' acts. I was making a very valid point. Even in the case of considering it wholly seperate from comics, I was STILL making a valid point. Don't get condecending with me. I'm the one making the post, I'll judge myself if I feel I made a valid contribution or not.

Lucifer is written as a more calculating evil, but far more evil than the likes of the characters you named. Especially since his comic, is from biblical viewpoint of good and evil. The aforementioned by myself. You see him as "free thinking", God saw him as evil and made him lord of hell. Get it? Good.


Oh Boy, here we go again.

You're point is invalid because:

1) Lucifer from Vertigo comics is not entirely based on the Lucifer from the Bible, quite infact in a Lucifer biography, Lucifer is tired of the reputation that mortals percieve of him to be. He is tired of the "Bible" and other religions misrepresenting him.

2) Lucifer is evil in the calculating way yes. But you say he is most evil, basically because he goes against the Creator. Don't ALL of these villians go against the so called "creator" since they are all evil? What is your point?

3) Your point is purely religious bias.....You brought up the Bible as a reason, and the Bible does not support anything about Lucifer from Vertigo comics, simply for reason # 1.

4) MY definition of evil is religious bias as well? I am not religious, so where are you getting at? How do you figure? I am looking at the characters themselves, and then explaining who i think is the most evil and why....i included nothing but comic book fact into this, while you brough the Bible up,...and your best reason for why you think Lucifer is most evil is because he is against Yahweh...o0o0o wow...big deal, as if no one ever did anything against God on this list roll eyes (sarcastic)





Originally posted by superherovandal
Isn't there supposed to be a Satan in Spawn comics wouldn't he be more evil than Urizen?


Nope...there is nothing to support that. We know nothing about Spawn's version of Satan, in fact Spawn's version of God isn't totally good...so why would his version of Satan be absolutely evil?

Urizen was so evil and powerful that Heaven and Hell HAD to make an alliance to stop him. WTF does that tell you ?????

Why the hell would Heaven and Hell make an alliance? Why would God and Satan work together to stop Urizen, if he wasn't worse than Satan????

Up In Flames
The Juggernaut is evil...
You guys should check out the issue where he beats the shit out of venom

other than that, he makes jokes while beating any other sorry fool...

Darth Macabre
The Juggernaut has joined the X-men before...These other people that have been mentioned have had no intention to EVER join the side of good....That immediately eliminates Juggernaut.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Up In Flames
The Juggernaut is evil...
You guys should check out the issue where he beats the shit out of venom

other than that, he makes jokes while beating any other sorry fool...

Wow, bro you have no clue do you?

Juggernaut doesn't compare to anyone on this list. wink

Lord Urizen
bump

diabloman
carnage is a serial killer for crying out loud so yes hes the most evil

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by diabloman
carnage is a serial killer for crying out loud so yes hes the most evil

And?

Joker is a serial killer.

Billy Kincaid is a serial killer.

Lawbringer QZTR is not only a serial killer, he's killed entire civilizations. Carnage doesn't even come close in terms of being mass murderer.

Urizen has killed demons, angels, humans, etc. on a much higher scale than Carnage.

Nice Try, fanboy wink

diabloman
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
And?

Joker is a serial killer.

Billy Kincaid is a serial killer.

Lawbringer QZTR is not only a serial killer, he's killed entire civilizations. Carnage doesn't even come close in terms of being mass murderer.

Urizen has killed demons, angels, humans, etc. on a much higher scale than Carnage.

Nice Try, fanboy wink joker 1st likes to entertain others and be the head of attention then he starts the killing. carange doesnt do all that BS he kills somone no matter what. hes not gonna go doing tricks and all that like joker does. PS. everyone on here is a fanboy so i can careless if u call me one or not

diabloman
Originally posted by Darth Macabre
Sinister...He'll do anything for a good dna sample. yup. and will do afew things other than just checking out there DNA

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by diabloman
joker 1st likes to entertain others and be the head of attention then he starts the killing. carange doesnt do all that BS he kills somone no matter what. hes not gonna go doing tricks and all that like joker does. PS. everyone on here is a fanboy so i can careless if u call me one or not



1) Carnage is definately on par with Joker, if not worse, in my opinion, so on that I agree.

2) Fanboy....that's a joke. Lighten up.

3) Carnage does not compare to Urizen or QZTR (well atleast not to me...do you even know enough about these two?)

diabloman
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
1) Carnage is definately on par with Joker, if not worse, in my opinion, so on that I agree.

2) Fanboy....that's a joke. Lighten up.

3) Carnage does not compare to Urizen or QZTR (well atleast not to me...do you even know enough about these two?) i know plenty. carnage is a much better fighter and he kills just for the hell of it. he doesnt give a damn if he sees some hot chick he will still kick her ass. joker would start flirting with her at 1st then take some action

Sixth_Winged
My top ten in no particular order

Purple Man
Joker
Carnage
Dr. Light
Redstone(from Supreme Power)
Dr. Destiny(Sandman)
Darkseid
Green Goblin(norman osborn)
Black Manta
Mephisto

diabloman
Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
My top ten in no particular order

Purple Man
Joker
Carnage
Dr. Light
Redstone(from Supreme Power)
Dr. Destiny(Sandman)
Darkseid
Green Goblin(norman osborn)
Black Manta
Mephisto id put goblin way down the list. he only kill when hes in the mood or something like that.

Sixth_Winged
Originally posted by diabloman
id put goblin way down the list. he only kill when hes in the mood or something like that.

Have you seen the stuff he does to **** with Peter's life? He even ****s up his own children's life to get to his enemy.


And he has killed people before with no qualms too that isn't related to Spider-man.

diabloman
Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
Have you seen the stuff he does to **** with Peter's life? He even ****s up his own children's life to get to his enemy.


And he has killed people before with no qualms too that isn't related to Spider-man. he kills others for a reason. carnage does it just for the hell of it.

ThePittman
QZTR all the way. evil face evil face evil face evil face evil face

Sixth_Winged
Originally posted by diabloman
he kills others for a reason. carnage does it just for the hell of it.

Just because you kill for a reason doesn't make you any less evil. Hitler kills jews because he hates them whole-heartedly and is a racist. Him orchestrating the holocaust because he knows what he wants and does it doesn't make him any less evil than serial killers. In fact, killing while sane makes you more evil in a sense, not that Green Goblin is sane of course.

diabloman
Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
Just because you kill for a reason doesn't make you any less evil. Hitler kills jews because he hates them whole-heartedly and is a racist. Him orchestrating the holocaust because he knows what he wants and does it doesn't make him any less evil than serial killers. In fact, killing while sane makes you more evil in a sense, not that Green Goblin is sane of course. magneto is a killer. he goes after all the humans or others that get in his way. but he doesnt go attacking the world just for the hell of it. that doesnt make him the most evil. carnage is way on the other side there.

Sixth_Winged
Originally posted by diabloman
magneto is a killer. he goes after all the humans or others that get in his way. but he doesnt go attacking the world just for the hell of it. that doesnt make him the most evil. carnage is way on the other side there.

Yes, because he has a cause and in his mind, what he was doing was virtuous and rightful. He has endured persecution himself and was also seeing others mutants suffering. And if you read his appearances, you'd know he regret the lives he had taken away and have actual remorse after he realized his folly.

That is different from trying to annihilate an entire race because you hate them. Early Mags might be considered "evil" since he believed mutants should be dominating earth instead of humans which was akin to the above. His character was fleshed out later on and shows he isn't as two-dimensional as he was being characterized in the past.

ThePittman
However evil is different to other people, depending on their belief system. An evil deed for one is a righteous act for another. Now killing without any reasons is generally accepted as bad throughout most belief systems so I would have to give that an edge over others.

Juntai
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Oh Boy, here we go again.

You're point is invalid because:

1) Lucifer from Vertigo comics is not entirely based on the Lucifer from the Bible, quite infact in a Lucifer biography, Lucifer is tired of the reputation that mortals percieve of him to be. He is tired of the "Bible" and other religions misrepresenting him.

2) Lucifer is evil in the calculating way yes. But you say he is most evil, basically because he goes against the Creator. Don't ALL of these villians go against the so called "creator" since they are all evil? What is your point?

3) Your point is purely religious bias.....You brought up the Bible as a reason, and the Bible does not support anything about Lucifer from Vertigo comics, simply for reason # 1.

4) MY definition of evil is religious bias as well? I am not religious, so where are you getting at? How do you figure? I am looking at the characters themselves, and then explaining who i think is the most evil and why....i included nothing but comic book fact into this, while you brough the Bible up,...and your best reason for why you think Lucifer is most evil is because he is against Yahweh...o0o0o wow...big deal, as if no one ever did anything against God on this list roll eyes (sarcastic)
Truth is, it seems you just have something against a religious standpoint as a whole given the way you've been in several threads and tried to attack me for it... even ones having to do with religious characters . . kind of like Lucifer in this one. . .or Spectre in another.

And it's entirely clear you've never read a full Lucifer storyline before. Only researched a small bit on them. I on the other hand own the entire series, seperate one shots, and tie ins. I even own the mini 'prelude' comic that came before the series was launched. My contribution was wholly credible, and he's far more evil than these characters. He built his own version of creation off of the entire idea of "Anti-God", "Anti Religion" which is wholle evil at it's finest. Hell, he started war with god at the dawn of creation.

You seem to think wanton destruction and destructive characteristics make something 'evil', which is not always true at all. Characters like Joker aren't evil, he does evil acts yes, but not in a willing nature. He's just crazy. The Lawbrings likewise do some evil acts, but aren't just evil characters, they do what they were created to do, by their Universes' god-figure. Hell, those two don't even hold a candle when concerning evilness to Lex Luthor, let alone Lucifer.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Juntai
Truth is, it seems you just have something against a religious standpoint as a whole given the way you've been in several threads and tried to attack me for it... even ones having to do with religious characters . . kind of like Lucifer in this one. . .or Spectre in another.



1) I never attacked you, stop being a drama queen

2) I have a problem with a religious standpoint in a comic book forum? YOU're DAMN RIGHT I DO ! This is a comic book forum, not a religion forum. If you wanna preach, go to the religion forum, don't bring it here.

You used the Bible as "Evidense" for your justification of declaring Lucifer the most evil, and i told u that's invalid, bcuz the Bible has no place here.....Vertigo's Lucifer is not entirely based on the Bible, i already told u this and u ignore that point.

You also ignored all my other points about Vertigo's Lucifer....nice job.

POINT IS: You declared Lucifer the most evil for two reasons: The Bible says so, and he defies God

1) The Bible is not valid in comic book forum, not in this case

2) EVERY villian on this list defies God in some way...



Originally posted by Juntai
And it's entirely clear you've never read a full Lucifer storyline before. Only researched a small bit on them. I on the other hand own the entire series, seperate one shots, and tie ins. I even own the mini 'prelude' comic that came before the series was launched. My contribution was wholly credible, and he's far more evil than these characters. He built his own version of creation off of the entire idea of "Anti-God", "Anti Religion" which is wholle evil at it's finest. Hell, he started war with god at the dawn of creation.


1) I have read much of the Lucifer series, I own the CRUX graphic novel

2) Anti God , Anti Religion...so what, been there, done that. Mammon, Urizen, and QZTR have done muchh crueler and sicker things than that.

I saw Lucifer create a new universe, and tell Adam and Eve that they must worship no one. o0o0o0o0o HOW EVIL roll eyes (sarcastic) What a sicko he was for doing that !

Started war with God at the Dawn of creation huh? NOW THIS may qualify.....as evil. But not most evil.

URIZEN's presense REQUIRED an alliance between God and Satan, between Heaven and Hell......it dont get more evil than that.




Originally posted by Juntai
You seem to think wanton destruction and destructive characteristics make something 'evil', which is not always true at all. Characters like Joker aren't evil, he does evil acts yes, but not in a willing nature. He's just crazy. The Lawbrings likewise do some evil acts, but aren't just evil characters, they do what they were created to do, by their Universes' god-figure. Hell, those two don't even hold a candle when concerning evilness to Lex Luthor, let alone Lucifer.




The Lawbringers are no more evil than Lex Luthor ? What the f**k? are you on CRACK ???????????? What as Lex Luthor done that's more evil than anything the Lawbringers have done???????????????????????????

The Lawbringers are NOT programmed genuis ! They have FREE WILL......one of the Lawbringers even rebelled against Charon himself.

Joker is crazy AND evil. He is on par with Carnage. Yet insanity comes first before evil in this case.


I do not define evil as being destructive....i define it as being CRUEL and SADISTIC.......you define it as defying God's will. QZTR, URIZEN, and Billy Kidncaid definately fall into this.

Lucifer from Vertigo IS evil, but his cruelty and sadism are NOTHING compared to some of the others on this list.

Lord Urizen
Lawbringer QZTR

1) He flattened a prisoner to intensely that the prisoner's body was stretched across 3 continents.

2) Killed a Goddess by teleporting inside her and "spiking" his way out of her body, resulting in the internal shredding of her body.

3) Flattened another prisoner with his hand, by pummeling and "stapelling" him to the ground

4) Shot a lazer to cut a hole through a man's chest

5) Telekinetically turned a troll inside out by squishing his feet, squishing his legs upward so that his blood built upward, his organs came vomitting out of his mouth, he basically "rolled up" the troll's skin like toilet paper.

6) Destroyed several planets

7) Melted innocent people with his powers

8) squashed runaway prisoners like bugs for boredom

9) impaled a woman with his fingers

10) has done evil things so unspeakable, that he even claimed that the word "murderer" barely begins to describe him. "There is no language Dark Enough to describe what we are" is what he told a Godlike being after he killed his wife.

kevdude
Well i'm sounds like Urizen is the almost evil being in Image. I haven't really heard anyone say Lucifer himself got into it with Urizen in Image and never heard of Images God ever really getting into it with Urizen either. There forces combined stopped him. It could be set up in a way that God and Lucifer(Image) did not get involved because they was busy with other things, and let there army's take care of Urizen. Lucifer (DC) could beat all of DC Hell easily, he also went to DC Heaven and before stepping foot there was warned by the angels they all would fight him. He then ignored them and was on his way to talk to Michael and they got in the way and he told them he would kill them if they didn't get out of the way. They then stepped aside. Very hard to say though. smokin'

Private Pion
I know he's very minor, but Seth the Six Billion Dollar Bastard was very, very evil. He had no apreciation of human life, and casually enjoyed killing, torture, pedophillia etc.

Not a nice guy, is what I'm trying to say. What made him the most evil in my mind, was he just did it, without finesse, like it didn't matter at all.

Xplosive
Why is here mentioned Bible. In Bible Lucifer is far more evil, is ultimate evil, in comic he is not.

ThePittman
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Lawbringer QZTR

1) He flattened a prisoner to intensely that the prisoner's body was stretched across 3 continents.

2) Killed a Goddess by teleporting inside her and "spiking" his way out of her body, resulting in the internal shredding of her body.

3) Flattened another prisoner with his hand, by pummeling and "stapelling" him to the ground

4) Shot a lazer to cut a hole through a man's chest

5) Telekinetically turned a troll inside out by squishing his feet, squishing his legs upward so that his blood built upward, his organs came vomitting out of his mouth, he basically "rolled up" the troll's skin like toilet paper.

6) Destroyed several planets

7) Melted innocent people with his powers

8) squashed runaway prisoners like bugs for boredom

9) impaled a woman with his fingers

10) has done evil things so unspeakable, that he even claimed that the word "murderer" barely begins to describe him. "There is no language Dark Enough to describe what we are" is what he told a Godlike being after he killed his wife. Dam I just love that guy, makes me all warm and fuzzy inside. evil face

Juntai
Originally posted by Xplosive
Why is here mentioned Bible. In Bible Lucifer is far more evil, is ultimate evil, in comic he is not. It's the same character. Lucifer invented the very idea of evil. I was merely bringing to the table that there's different interpretations of evil. I was speaking of evil, in the sense of 'against good', and Lucifer stands atop that list. He carries all of the 'evil' traits most religions speak of, such as his vainess and selfishness.

Urizen is trying to enforce HIS version of what evil is, which apperently is BETTER described in his post on the last page, where he said "I do not define evil as being destructive....i define it as being CRUEL and SADISTIC." Which is apperently what the thread should be asking for, who's the most cruel and sadistic, that way he can feel like his favorite characters win.... and so people don't come in and drop relivent points only to somehow get told they're wrong and their points irrelivent.

ThePittman
"I'm not evil, I'm just DRAWN that way" evil face laughing

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Juntai
It's the same character. Lucifer invented the very idea of evil. I was merely bringing to the table that there's different interpretations of evil. I was speaking of evil, in the sense of 'against good', and Lucifer stands atop that list. He carries all of the 'evil' traits most religions speak of, such as his vainess and selfishness.


1) Vainness and Selfishness in NO way compares to sadism, cruelty, hatred, etc.

2) I DO THINK LUCIFER IS EVIL....if i didnt thnk that, i would have not included him bro. I am just not convinced that he is the most evil. And initially you only have 2 reasons:

The Bible says so

He defies God


JUST understand Juntai...i am not against religion. However, the two upper reasons are extremely WEAK, because:

A) The Bible is not a comic book, so its validity is almost non existant

B)ALL of these characters defy God in some way, shape, or form.




Originally posted by Juntai
Urizen is trying to enforce HIS version of what evil is, which apperently is BETTER described in his post on the last page, where he said "I do not define evil as being destructive....i define it as being CRUEL and SADISTIC." Which is apperently what the thread should be asking for, who's the most cruel and sadistic, that way he can feel like his favorite characters win.... and so people don't come in and drop relivent points only to somehow get told they're wrong and their points irrelivent.




1) MY definition of evil doesn't have to be accepted. You were misdefining my definition, and i simply corrected you on what MINE was.

2) I am not forcing crap.....i am telling you that you were displaying purely religious bias into the forum, that was until you started giving ACTUAL FEATS.

All I am asking you to do is present COMIC BOOK FACT, not say stuff like "Well the Bible says Lucifer is the most evil thing ever" or "he goes against God, therefore he is most evil"....you have to understand those are veryyyy weak points for the above reasons.



Everyone else here is using FEATS and/or character descriptions to justify why they think their character is the most evil. All you were doing before was preaching on how your religion says Lucifer is the embodyment of evil, yada yada.....

Vertigo's Lucifer is NOT portrayed the EXACT same way the Bible portrays him....Lucifer has even stated how he is misrepresented by all the sources that describe him (including the Bible), he was tired of the mortal reputation he had (like being a soul collector, which isn't true...he couldnt care less for human souls).........THEREFORE that renders the Bible USELESS in this debate.

Juntai
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
1) Vainness and Selfishness in NO way compares to sadism, cruelty, hatred, etc.

2) I DO THINK LUCIFER IS EVIL....if i didnt thnk that, i would have not included him bro. I am just not convinced that he is the most evil. And initially you only have 2 reasons:

The Bible says so

He defies God


JUST understand Juntai...i am not against religion. However, the two upper reasons are extremely WEAK, because:

A) The Bible is not a comic book, so its validity is almost non existant

B)ALL of these characters defy God in some way, shape, or form.









1) MY definition of evil doesn't have to be accepted. You were misdefining my definition, and i simply corrected you on what MINE was.

2) I am not forcing crap.....i am telling you that you were displaying purely religious bias into the forum, that was until you started giving ACTUAL FEATS.

All I am asking you to do is present COMIC BOOK FACT, not say stuff like "Well the Bible says Lucifer is the most evil thing ever" or "he goes against God, therefore he is most evil"....you have to understand those are veryyyy weak points for the above reasons.



Everyone else here is using FEATS and/or character descriptions to justify why they think their character is the most evil. All you were doing before was preaching on how your religion says Lucifer is the embodyment of evil, yada yada.....

Vertigo's Lucifer is NOT portrayed the EXACT same way the Bible portrays him....Lucifer has even stated how he is misrepresented by all the sources that describe him (including the Bible), he was tired of the mortal reputation he had (like being a soul collector, which isn't true...he couldnt care less for human souls).........THEREFORE that renders the Bible USELESS in this debate. But as for Lucifer and his evilness, is upheld in his comic.. It upholds perfectly. I wasn't preaching my religion, I was talking about his portrayal. In Lucifer comics, just like in the bible, his evilness stems from defying Yahweh, he built his legacy on it. Yes, all sinners defy god in a sense, but none of them split heaven in half doing it. Defined what sin was, because it didn't exist before him.


Either way, I can tell I've struck I've nerve by simply offering a different viewpoint to what evil is. Whatever, rant all you want. I could care less after this post, because I'm already repeating myself over and over.

If you wanted who was the most SADISTIC character, then maybe you should have asked for that instead of 'evil', because evil to YOU apperently isn't the same exact definition of evil to everyone else, or we wouldn't be having this discussion would we?

Spectre is sadistic, murderer of countless people and civilisations, killing them all in more sick and twisted ways than anyone else on your list... is he evil? No.

I dunno, a few things to think about.

diabloman
Originally posted by Xplosive
Why is here mentioned Bible. In Bible Lucifer is far more evil, is ultimate evil, in comic he is not. carnage is in the bible then if you say evil is in there

ThePittman
QZTR, come on the guy wears all S&M leather, he has to be evil. evil face devil

Juntai
Originally posted by ThePittman
QZTR, come on the guy wears all S&M leather, he has to be evil. evil face devil He was a scary dude. The Lawbringers were nasty powerful. I still think if they ever ran into the dude from Sigil, they'd be ****ed. He seemed to be the most powerful of all the sigil bearers. They seemed to regard him as such as well.

ThePittman
Originally posted by Juntai
He was a scary dude. The Lawbringers were nasty powerful. I still think if they ever ran into the dude from Sigil, they'd be ****ed. He seemed to be the most powerful of all the sigil bearers. They seemed to regard him as such as well. Yea he was pretty nasty but I still think QZTR could take him, though he would need a new S&M outfit. laughing

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Juntai
But as for Lucifer and his evilness, is upheld in his comic.. It upholds perfectly. I wasn't preaching my religion, I was talking about his portrayal. In Lucifer comics, just like in the bible, his evilness stems from defying Yahweh, he built his legacy on it. Yes, all sinners defy god in a sense, but none of them split heaven in half doing it. Defined what sin was, because it didn't exist before him.


1) The only similiarity that Lucifer has in Vertigo as with the Bible is his defiance of God. This still doesn't hold the Bible entirely valid in this debate.

2) I once brought up the book of Urizen, to back up Urizen's power, and you yourself told me the Book Of Urizen by William Blake had no place in the Spawn mythos, even though Cogliostro mentioned it. Despite the fact that you were a hypocrit for involving the Bible in your argument, i dropped the argument.

3) Split Heaven in Half? Did Lucifer do that? NOW that's impressive. THAT's a FEAT done in Lucifer comics....not just a religious bias point of view.(instead of saying The Bible says so) Do you see the difference?




Originally posted by Juntai
Either way, I can tell I've struck I've nerve by simply offering a different viewpoint to what evil is. Whatever, rant all you want. I could care less after this post, because I'm already repeating myself over and over.



WRONGthumb down

1) AGAIN...you've struck a nerve by being a preacher in a comic book debate. You struck a nerve when you reasoned Lucifer as being the most evil because The Bible says he is...that is the most irrelevant point I ever heard.

2)Evil....my definition of evil, and yours isn't what's the conflict here. You were not using COMIC BOOK FACT to back up your points before. THAT was your error.





Originally posted by Juntai
If you wanted who was the most SADISTIC character, then maybe you should have asked for that instead of 'evil', because evil to YOU apperently isn't the same exact definition of evil to everyone else, or we wouldn't be having this discussion would we?

Nope. I wanna know who is the most evil character and why. I still do. But saying "The Bible says so" is an invalid argument.





Originally posted by Juntai
Spectre is sadistic, murderer of countless people and civilisations, killing them all in more sick and twisted ways than anyone else on your list... is he evil? No.



If he is sadistic in his approach, then yes he is evil in my book. Lots of religious regimes have done horrible things to people in real life....that makes thier actions any less evil because they were killing for God?


EVEN if graphic novel Kingdom Come drawn my Alex Ross, the main character who Spectre has approached, TOLD OFF Spectre by calling HIM EVIL He told Spectre:

"To stand by and see something horrible happen, and do nothing about it....now that is TRULY EVIL"

Spectre was willing to ignore the situation and have his judgement be that either the humans or superhumans die. The main character OPPOSED SPECTRE's point of view, and CONVINCED Spectre that his judgement was EVIL AND WRONG......



Originally posted by Juntai
I dunno, a few things to think about.



I think you need to think more before you POST. wink

Juntai
I didn't try to use just the bible, I merely stated an objective point of view on what evil is, it's perfectly viable. However, Lucifer in his comics, is Lucifer from the Bible, he hates the way it portrays him, but at the same time, the shoe fits. You'd be able to recognize this if you read any good amount of the stories involved with the character.

And I wasn't citing Biblical anything in that other arguement either, you on the other hand were trying to use non canon sources and complete extrapolation then trying to claim it as a fact, because you thought it -might be-. In that case, you were very severely in the wrong . . . a lot like this time.






You're totally off base....an opinion can't be wrong. And I wasn't preaching anything. I said Lucifer is most evil, his comic book upholds the fact. He is the very inventor of evil. You're also ignoring the fact that Lucifer and both Spectre's comics, the entire DC and Veritog Universes all have the same "God is the ultimate good, and anything that opposes them is therefore evil", and Lucifer is the ultimate when it comes to opposing Gods will. And that's a comic fact.

Given your standards on what an evil character is, Spectre must be most evil. Given the billions of souls he's tortured and the method he does it.




But a person killing in Gods name is a lot different than The Wrath of God killing someone because it must be done so that his soul may pass on.




And I think -you- do, because obviously you can't accept that not everyone agrees with your definition of evil.

Avalonofthewind
If these are the forms of EVIL we are using. Asmodel definitely gets a mention. After forcefully taking over heaven, the guy threatens to "burn it down" and goes on to face God.

Pretty evil and badass.

Juntai
I dunno I offered an objective point of view to what one might consider evil, and offered up my opinion on the character I considered most evil. Wrongness doesn't really come into play.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Juntai
I didn't try to use just the bible, I merely stated an objective point of view on what evil is, it's perfectly viable. However, Lucifer in his comics, is Lucifer from the Bible, he hates the way it portrays him, but at the same time, the shoe fits. You'd be able to recognize this if you read any good amount of the stories involved with the character.


You specifically stated It says in the Bible that Lucifer is the most evil...that clearly IS using the Bible, a non canon source.

The shoe fits? Can you give specifics? References to the Bible and Comic,Comparisons, quotes, anything? That would seriously strengthen your argument. wink

True, if I read more I may see the connection.



Originally posted by Juntai
And I wasn't citing Biblical anything in that other arguement either, you on the other hand were trying to use non canon sources and complete extrapolation then trying to claim it as a fact, because you thought it -might be-. In that case, you were very severely in the wrong . . . a lot like this time.



Book Of Urizen by William Blake was SPECIFICALLY referred to by COGLIOSTRO himself in Spawn issue #97. So my reference was a lot more valid than your reference to the Bible, which you never cited back to the comic to back up your argument.

However, i considered your argument, because the Book of Urizen itself is NOT a comic book. SO I DROPPED IT......you on the other hand, STILL INSIST on using the BIBLE to back up your argument, when it has no place here, because it is NOT a comic book...PERIOD. That she be the end of the Bible argument...geez roll eyes (sarcastic)





Originally posted by Juntai
You're totally off base....an opinion can't be wrong. And I wasn't preaching anything. I said Lucifer is most evil, his comic book upholds the fact. He is the very inventor of evil. You're also ignoring the fact that Lucifer and both Spectre's comics, the entire DC and Veritog Universes all have the same "God is the ultimate good, and anything that opposes them is therefore evil", and Lucifer is the ultimate when it comes to opposing Gods will. And that's a comic fact.


An opinion can be INVALID if backed up by an INVALID and IRRELEVANT source of information.

The Bible is an INVALID source of information to say that "Lucifer is the most evil"......The Bible is not a comic book....what part don't you understand?

And if the Vertigo Series Lucifer does parallel the Bible's depiction a lot, then ATLEAST explain HOW in detail...don't just give this "take my word" argument.




Originally posted by Juntai
Given your standards on what an evil character is, Spectre must be most evil. Given the billions of souls he's tortured and the method he does it.


I never said Spectre is the most evil. I said based on what you told me, he seems pretty evil to me now.




Originally posted by Juntai
But a person killing in Gods name is a lot different than The Wrath of God killing someone because it must be done so that his soul may pass on.

So in order for Spectre to pass a soul, he has to savagely torture someone to do it? You know how funny it is, you never even COUNTERED the point I made about Kingdom Come's depiction of Spectre.

You seem to skip a lot of points, thus making your arguments invalid, pointless, and cowardly.



Originally posted by Juntai
And I think -you- do, because obviously you can't accept that not everyone agrees with your definition of evil.


Ay Carajo chico.......CAN YOU EVEN READ?????


I HAVE SPECIFICALLY SAID:

2)Evil....my definition of evil, and yours isn't what's the conflict here. You were not using COMIC BOOK FACT to back up your points before. THAT was your error.


STOP debating like a child Juntai and debate for REAL. Don't argue with me about what is evil and what is not. If you WANT to have a RELIGIOUS or MORAL debate with me, then PM me...don't WASTE forum space on my thread !

Either ARGUE why you think Lucifer is the most evil with specific feats and actions he has DONE./....or stop wasting typing space alright?

Juntai
The truth is, it's surprising you have any credibility left as a poster through the course of this thread and the last one. You've outright lied, put words into my mouth, extrapolated heavily, misconstrue material to try to help your cause, tried to use non canon sources as material evidence.. seriously the list goes on and on. I mean ...in this thread alone you've put words in my mouth several times, hell - you even tried to say The Spectre evil, said my opinion was wrong somehow, brought up Kingdom Come--a non canon source again-- to somehow 'prove' your non-point. Your debating style is simply put. . . .wack.

This is what you don't get after all this time. Your thread asked for the opinion of who's the most evil, I gave it. I'm not in an arguement. I don't have a case. I have an opinion. Your posts towards me throughout this thread have tried to attack me for my opinion, and tell me that it is in fact wrong. I believe it's right. Therefore it is right. Understand? You cannot, will not, influence my opinion. You think wanton destruction is evil, I think the characters who forumlate, calculate and plan evil, are the more evil ones. That again is my opinion.

I mentioned the religious bit at the beginning of the thread just to offer an objective point of view to the thread, to add a little something to it. I wasn't trying to call anyone wrong, or anyone right. YOU did that, by nearly outright attacking me and my character through this thread. It's totally off base and you come across as quite bitter that I utterly schooled you in that last Spectre thread. I do that to everyone in Spectre threads. Now quit acting like a pussy and man up.

I also do not feel required to justify my choice to you, but you want some? Read the series. Everything Lucifer does is evil. In a single one shot, he found himself in the middle of a plot, and ended up killing several hundreds of thousands of people.. and ended up saving the world... but he didn't do it to save the world, or to kill the people.. it happened merely because they got in between him and his destination. And that's how Lucifer acts. In another comic, they show hell's fields of pain where the souls are the dead are tortured and "pain" is harvested from them, and acts is like crack to the denizens of hell. Every step Lucifer takes evil follows in his path. Anyone as well versed in his series as you pretend to act you would know this already. Just the same as you would also know that DC and Vertigo comics have heavy religious overtones and often reference the Bible and the events therein. One such event is Lucifer turning on Yahweh, the rebellion in Heaven, Lucifer tempting Adam and Eve in the Garden, Lucifer becoming lord of hell, the ultimate sign of evil, the cursed one, the most foul, etc. Or Spectre being the manifestation of Gods Wrath and bringing the plagues, the fall of Saddom and Gammorah. Even Jesus happened in DC/Vertigo.


Anyways, I'm seriously done talking about this, I'll meet you in the next Superman thread or something and see if your skillz have improved yet.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Juntai
The truth is, it's surprising you have any credibility left as a poster through the course of this thread and the last one. You've outright lied, put words into my mouth, extrapolated heavily, misconstrue material to try to help your cause, tried to use non canon sources as material evidence.. seriously the list goes on and on. I mean ...in this thread alone you've put words in my mouth several times, hell - you even tried to say The Spectre evil, said my opinion was wrong somehow, brought up Kingdom Come--a non canon source again-- to somehow 'prove' your non-point. Your debating style is simply put. . . .wack.

This is what you don't get after all this time. Your thread asked for the opinion of who's the most evil, I gave it. I'm not in an arguement. I don't have a case. I have an opinion. Your posts towards me throughout this thread have tried to attack me for my opinion, and tell me that it is in fact wrong. I believe it's right. Therefore it is right. Understand? You cannot, will not, influence my opinion. You think wanton destruction is evil, I think the characters who forumlate, calculate and plan evil, are the more evil ones. That again is my opinion.

I mentioned the religious bit at the beginning of the thread just to offer an objective point of view to the thread, to add a little something to it. I wasn't trying to call anyone wrong, or anyone right. YOU did that, by nearly outright attacking me and my character through this thread. It's totally off base and you come across as quite bitter that I utterly schooled you in that last Spectre thread. I do that to everyone in Spectre threads. Now quit acting like a pussy and man up.

I also do not feel required to justify my choice to you, but you want some? Read the series. Everything Lucifer does is evil. In a single one shot, he found himself in the middle of a plot, and ended up killing several hundreds of thousands of people.. and ended up saving the world... but he didn't do it to save the world, or to kill the people.. it happened merely because they got in between him and his destination. And that's how Lucifer acts. In another comic, they show hell's fields of pain where the souls are the dead are tortured and "pain" is harvested from them, and acts is like crack to the denizens of hell. Every step Lucifer takes evil follows in his path. Anyone as well versed in his series as you pretend to act you would know this already. Just the same as you would also know that DC and Vertigo comics have heavy religious overtones and often reference the Bible and the events therein. One such event is Lucifer turning on Yahweh, the rebellion in Heaven, Lucifer tempting Adam and Eve in the Garden, Lucifer becoming lord of hell, the ultimate sign of evil, the cursed one, the most foul, etc. Or Spectre being the manifestation of Gods Wrath and bringing the plagues, the fall of Saddom and Gammorah. Even Jesus happened in DC/Vertigo.


Anyways, I'm seriously done talking about this, I'll meet you in the next Superman thread or something and see if your skillz have improved yet.



laughing laughing laughing laughing laughing

God...what a child you are ! Serously....

1) You FAIL to counter ANY of my points.

2) You fail or refuse to admit to the fact that you were mistaken in bringing up the Bible a non-canon source of information in the comic book forums. You still try to justify its use, and are blind to see how wrong you were in doing so.


3) You resort to name calling and cursing (ie. calling me a pussy, GROW UP JUNTAI SERIOUSLY) Can you even make a valid argument on the topic please?

4) AGAIN you are steering off topic, and turning my thread into a fkn 3 ring circus...CUT THE CRAP JUNTAI Either DEBATE or DONT but don't come here being a preacher and then being a critique on other people's debating skills. I couldn't care less what you think of my debate, yours is always weaker and less valid ALL THE TIME.

5)I'm DONE with you....if you wanna DEBATE as to WHY Lucifer is the most evil...than DO SO.

If you just wanted to give and INVALID statement like "Well the Bible says Lucifer is the most evil, therefore he Is" then you SAID what you had to, and LEAVE IT ALONE.

BUT WASTE NO MORE TIME on my thread. PLEASE.....STAY ON TOPIC OR GET OUT !

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Juntai
Anything that is not God or would challenge Gods will is 'evil' according to the Bible. Lucifer is certainly that.



Just for the sake of simplicity, and a release of further argument.....cuz I hate going out of the confines of Diplomacy Juntai....


You have stated "according to the Bible", in which response I stated:


Originally posted by Juntai
No Offense Juntai, but "Biblical Truth" has NO PLACE in comic book reality. We had this discussion already, so please...

Draco made a VERY valid point already.



So let's get something straight, because you were jumping to a million conclusions, and the argument got outta wack there:

1) MyONLY problem with your point was that you were using the Bible to back up your opinion. The Bible is not a comic book....therefore the point you were making was INVALID regardless of whether or not your opinion was.

2)As for our definitions of Evil- All that doesn't matter. Everyone has a different opinion of what is evil, and I stated that this wasn't the problem a few posts back. YOU keep insisting that i am trying to enforce my opinion onto you, and that argument is FALSE.

3)ALL I ASK is that if you are going to argue Lucifer as the most evil, then use examples from the COMIC BOOKS themselves as to why. OKAY? Is that so hard to do?



You saying "Lucifer is evil because the Bible says so" is as valid as me saying "Urizen is the most evil because The Book Of Urizen says he is"



Do you understand now? Or do you wanna promote an insult fest like you did last post, and derail this entire debate?

Lord Urizen
bump

LethalFemme
I'm gonna vote for who's ever the ugliest.yes

Lord Urizen
ok.....

Takion
God from Spawn laughing

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Takion
God from Spawn laughing

So far God from SPAWN is pretty bad.....

Takion
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
So far God from SPAWN is pretty bad.....
How bout Katie, bashing her brothers brains out. shifty

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Takion
How bout Katie, bashing her brothers brains out. shifty

I think she may be Lucifer. And if that is the case, then she is even worse.

Takion
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I think she may be Lucifer. And if that is the case, then she is even worse.
It would be stupid if the story ends like this.

Spawn you are god, every lost soul is a piece of you, combined you are God.

Ofcourse thats some crappy plot.

jinzin
zarathos period.

jinzin
Originally posted by LethalFemme
I'm gonna vote for who's ever the ugliest.yes

mojo?

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Takion
It would be stupid if the story ends like this.

Spawn you are god, every lost soul is a piece of you, combined you are God.

Ofcourse thats some crappy plot.

Or if it's something like God saying, " I sowwie...my bad.....let me snap my fingers and make evewything all betta ! smile "

sick crappy alternate plot !

Takion
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Or if it's something like God saying, " I sowwie...my bad.....let me snap my fingers and make evewything all betta ! smile "

sick crappy alternate plot !
At the end I bet you Spawn is going to be God.
Originally posted by jinzin
zarathos period.
Zarathos is scary not as evil.

manjaro
id have to go with joker. and not just cuz wizard ranked him as the #1 villain of all time.....but becuase as we've found out in the batman run where red hood was kicking ass, jason was all like i know youre not as as crazy as youd like ppl to believe and he stoppped is maniacal laughter...joker doesnt have any gandiose goals.. its just to be gotham's number 1 kingpin and be the yang to batman's ying, and murder scores of ppl along the way...just just evil man...kincaid has a honest to goodess chemical imbalance, so he has an excuse, joker just does shit for sport

golem370
Thanos has killed billions thats b,000,000,000s of people for Mistress Death

Lord Urizen
I still say Billy Kincaid is more evil than Lucifer Morningstar.

Lucifer has no interest in torturing low level life, infact it quite bores him. He is more interested in grandiose cosmic scale evil, he attacks beings of power.

Billy Kincaid prays on defenseless innocent children. He rapes, tortures, dismembers and murders CHILDREN...he's murdered hundreds of children already.

Even MALEBOLGIA was IMPRESSED at the fact that even though Billy Kincaid was in Hell, and needed to escape...he still used his time to try and strangle a little girl, instead of trying to find a way to escape his own torture.

Billy Kincaid's urge to torment children IS EVEN STRONGER than his urge to survive !

Lord Urizen
bump

UniOmni
This list is nothing without Doom.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by UniOmni
This list is nothing without Doom.


Okay....why?

Takion
Originally posted by golem370
Thanos has killed billions thats b,000,000,000s of people for Mistress Death
But that was rather sweet.
Originally posted by UniOmni
This list is nothing without Doom.
Doom, is cool....but not as evil.

Jargon343
Cyborg Superman and Mongul nuked a city, that was pretty cool.

Lord Urizen
Yeah, Doom is like a non-factor here lol

ThePittman
This guy > chair

Superherovandal
Lucifer is amoung the top. He's one of those who doesn't usually actually do the deed but is the planner. He's just as evil as anyone else.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Superherovandal
Lucifer is amoung the top. He's one of those who doesn't usually actually do the deed but is the planner. He's just as evil as anyone else.


I agree that he is among the top, which is why i put him on this list. But you have to consider the facts that:

1) He usually picks on beings who atleast have 1% of a chance of escape/avoidance, and beings who have done harm to other beings as well. HE picks on very powerful people, which is impressive.

2) Even if he is the "influence of evil" i have not heard of him cruelly harming innocent and/or defenseless beings.

3) He gave Adam and Eve absolute Freedom in the universe he created. That seems pretty decent to me.

Questions:

1) Has he ever chopped up, raped, tortured, and killed children before?

2) Has he ever engaged in a violent bloodlusted slaughter of innocent people?

3) Has he ever taken away someone's free will (and by free will i dont mean did he force someone through intimidation, i mean has he ever totally taken away someone's ability to think for themselves and choose for themselves)?

I still think Billy Kincaid, Urizen, and Lawbringer QZTR beat him there. Lucifer from Vertigo comics is NOT responsible for THIER evil whatsoever.

Lord Urizen
Remember:


1)Billy Kincaid- has chopped up children, taking off thier bodyparts while they were still alive, raped little girls AND little boys, tortured them in unimaginable ways, and has murdered them only after they were mutilated. Even in Hell, even though he was a prisoner there, he still found time and the urge to strangle a little girl in Hell.

2)Lawbringer QZTR- not only mercilessly slaughtered half of the Negation cast in ONE ISSUE FLAT, he had slaughtered many civilizations and many worlds in general simply because they did not fit in with Lord Charon's approval. QZTR would even do punishments so cruel that even CHARON would disapprove of ! And Charon is evil as hell, for HIM to reprimand QZTR for doing certain punishments ??? You can only imagine how disgustingly sick and evil this dude is.

3)Urizen- kills the imagination, rots away the spirit, eats spiritual energy, kills free will, kills individuality and identity, kills love, his mere presence caused people 3 miles away from him to commit suicide and murder thier own family members....Heaven and Hell were both terrified of him, SO WAS GREENWORLD, even SPAWN got the shit scared out of him just by GAZING into Urizen's eye and seeing the senseless nightmare Urizen would unleash. I rest my case !

ThePittman
GO QZTR!!!!!

kevdude
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Remember:


1)Billy Kincaid- has chopped up children, taking off thier bodyparts while they were still alive, raped little girls AND little boys, tortured them in unimaginable ways, and has murdered them only after they were mutilated. Even in Hell, even though he was a prisoner there, he still found time and the urge to strangle a little girl in Hell.

2)Lawbringer QZTR- not only mercilessly slaughtered half of the Negation cast in ONE ISSUE FLAT, he had slaughtered many civilizations and many worlds in general simply because they did not fit in with Lord Charon's approval. QZTR would even do punishments so cruel that even CHARON would disapprove of ! And Charon is evil as hell, for HIM to reprimand QZTR for doing certain punishments ??? You can only imagine how disgustingly sick and evil this dude is.

3)Urizen- kills the imagination, rots away the spirit, eats spiritual energy, kills free will, kills individuality and identity, kills love, his mere presence caused people 3 miles away from him to commit suicide and murder thier own family members....Heaven and Hell were both terrified of him, SO WAS GREENWORLD, even SPAWN got the shit scared out of him just by GAZING into Urizen's eye and seeing the senseless nightmare Urizen would unleash. I rest my case !

I'd still say Lucifer is above them in evil. He also has killed children and tortured them. In Spectre v 4 #1 He influnced a woman who was a devoted Christian and used her easily for his own fun.

Lawbringer sounds pretty bad but Lucifer could still do everything he did and alot better.

Urizen sounds like the major 1 who could do anything to him. Lucifer all by himself could destroy all of Heaven and Hell (without the help of The Presence, The Word or Micheal) very easily. He went into the Mansions of Silence and destroyed it when he was powerless. In Sandman, Dream sent Cain to tell Lucifer that he was coming to Hell. Cain went crazy just being in Lucifers presence. He saw Cains mark, the mark imparted by the Presence that anyone hurting him will have the effect turned on them 7x over. Lucifer thought this was FUNNY. Lucifer also defeated and killed Fenris who was the immortal god of destruction. Fenris has been planning this for billions of years and has been watching Lucifer for billions of years, and Lucifer STILL won.

Yah it is true that Lucifer does not care much for torturing children and killing minor beings. He killings beings that are worth his time. But does that mean he is lesser evil? Nope, he was the second to go against the Creator. Also notice before the fall, angels wore nothing in Heaven, after it they wore clothes because they knew what sin was then. And who did that? Lucifer Morningstar.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by kevdude
I'd still say Lucifer is above them in evil. He also has killed children and tortured them. In Spectre v 4 #1 He influnced a woman who was a devoted Christian and used her easily for his own fun.

Lawbringer sounds pretty bad but Lucifer could still do everything he did and alot better.

Urizen sounds like the major 1 who could do anything to him. Lucifer all by himself could destroy all of Heaven and Hell (without the help of The Presence, The Word or Micheal) very easily. He went into the Mansions of Silence and destroyed it when he was powerless. In Sandman, Dream sent Cain to tell Lucifer that he was coming to Hell. Cain went crazy just being in Lucifers presence. He saw Cains mark, the mark imparted by the Presence that anyone hurting him will have the effect turned on them 7x over. Lucifer thought this was FUNNY. Lucifer also defeated and killed Fenris who was the immortal god of destruction. Fenris has been planning this for billions of years and has been watching Lucifer for billions of years, and Lucifer STILL won.

Yah it is true that Lucifer does not care much for torturing children and killing minor beings. He killings beings that are worth his time. But does that mean he is lesser evil? Nope, he was the second to go against the Creator. Also notice before the fall, angels wore nothing in Heaven, after it they wore clothes because they knew what sin was then. And who did that? Lucifer Morningstar.




Interesting point. Here is my rebuttle:

1) When and how has Lucifer tortured children? Does he savor in it? Is that his prime pleasure?

2) Lucifer can destroy Heaven and Hell...that is interesting as well, but here's what you may not be considering. It is highly suggested that Urizen can do the SAME THING...he just never DID. Also Heaven and Hell in IMAGE is muchh more extensive then the Heaven and Hell of DC/Vertigo.


From every Lucifer comic issue I have read, Lucifer seems more indifferent to me, rather than "evil", although I do recognize his evil.

kevdude
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Interesting point. Here is my rebuttle:

1) When and how has Lucifer tortured children? Does he savor in it? Is that his prime pleasure?

2) Lucifer can destroy Heaven and Hell...that is interesting as well, but here's what you may not be considering. It is highly suggested that Urizen can do the SAME THING...he just never DID. Also Heaven and Hell in IMAGE is muchh more extensive then the Heaven and Hell of DC/Vertigo.


From every Lucifer comic issue I have read, Lucifer seems more indifferent to me, rather than "evil", although I do recognize his evil.

He didn't torture them himself no. He had the woman use and abuse the children, turning them into monsters and then killing them. A part of him savors it. It later shows him having a huge toy train running over children and him standing there smiling with Hal shocked. Is it his prime pleasure? No not really, he even states that he gets bored sometimes. Lucifer was created to rebel and go against God and challenge him from the beginning.

Heaven and Hell in DC/Vergito is very extensive as well. There is billions of versions of each for every being in the universe. Everyone creates there own Heaven or Hell. All these versions are tied together. However there is really only 1 main version of Hell and 1 of Heaven.

About DC and Vertigo continuity. Most Vergito books are in DC continuity. As shown in DC while the Great Darkness challenged God/The Presence. later on in Vergitos Sandman, it shows Lucifer talking about THIS major event. If Vergito isn't in main DC continuity then DC should have seen this and fixed it. Since they did NOT fix it, this means its in DC continuity. Books like Preacher are not in DC/Vergito Continuity, as stated by the writer. Vertigo is the adult version of the DCU. wink

rotiart
Superman is the most evil. His dickery knows no bounds.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by kevdude
He didn't torture them himself no. He had the woman use and abuse the children, turning them into monsters and then killing them. A part of him savors it. It later shows him having a huge toy train running over children and him standing there smiling with Hal shocked. Is it his prime pleasure? No not really, he even states that he gets bored sometimes. Lucifer was created to rebel and go against God and challenge him from the beginning.

1) Lucifer was really created BY God to go against him? Then he didn't truly do this out of his own free will, AND if Lucifer was MEANT to challenge God, then he is only going by God's plan, and is in no true way defying him. Only doing what he is supposed to do. There goes Juntai's previous argument down the drain. wink

2) I understand that Lucifer finds pleasure in horrible things such as the agony of children and has no regard for life. However, every single Spawn villian is the same way and worse. Lucifer's indirect mistreatment of children in no way impresses me or even shocks me to the extant that Billy Kincaid does. Also his cruelty/sadism also do not impress me to the extant that QZTR does.

Lucifer is supposed to be the most evil in DC/Vertigo, i can certainly buy that he is evil, but he also seems very rational. He seems to do evil things out necessity for his GOAL rather than for the sake of pleasure. Torment to an extant seems to bore him, and this indifference is what makes him seem more nuetral as oppose to evil.




Originally posted by kevdude
Heaven and Hell in DC/Vergito is very extensive as well. There is billions of versions of each for every being in the universe. Everyone creates there own Heaven or Hell. All these versions are tied together. However there is really only 1 main version of Hell and 1 of Heaven.

I understand that in terms of individual torment/pleasure DC/Vertigo's Heaven and Hell and very extensive. However, in terms of POWER and powerful characters, there versions seems limitted. Spawn's version of Heaven and Hell are more extensive in which they have numerous characters, character ranks, and a larger variety and scale of power. I rather not go into this, but if you want me to, just ask. It's a lot to write tho.




Originally posted by kevdude
About DC and Vertigo continuity. Most Vergito books are in DC continuity. As shown in DC while the Great Darkness challenged God/The Presence. later on in Vergitos Sandman, it shows Lucifer talking about THIS major event. If Vergito isn't in main DC continuity then DC should have seen this and fixed it. Since they did NOT fix it, this means its in DC continuity. Books like Preacher are not in DC/Vergito Continuity, as stated by the writer. Vertigo is the adult version of the DCU. wink


I don't care too much about loopholes and plot justifications. Marvel leaves a lot of loopholes as well, as did Crossgen before it was shut down. IT doesn't bother me too much, artists do that all the time. What matters more to me is story, character conflict, character development, and all that other crap lol

And yes, I can easily see how Vertigo is the adult version of DC. THANK GOD ! DC is a lil too kiddy at times. laughing

Superherovandal
does it matter if he actually did rape and kill? Thats like saying if a woman has a bounty hunter kill and torture her husband for her own gain that she isn't that evil. Lucifer is a different kind of evil. Thats why you can't really say who is the most evil. i mean for instance Lex Luthor had Joker kill Alexander Luthor Jr. but does that mean that Lex isn't as much evil as Joker because he only did it for revenge?

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Superherovandal
does it matter if he actually did rape and kill? Thats like saying if a woman has a bounty hunter kill and torture her husband for her own gain that she isn't that evil. Lucifer is a different kind of evil. Thats why you can't really say who is the most evil. i mean for instance Lex Luthor had Joker kill Alexander Luthor Jr. but does that mean that Lex isn't as much evil as Joker because he only did it for revenge?

1) Yes it does matter!!! VERY MUCH !!!! yes Doing a vicious action on someone yourself is more personal, and more directly evil than an indirect "behind the scenes" culprit.

2) If a woman hires a bounty hunter to kill and torture her husband, then she is slightly less evil than the person who actually does it. It depends on one thing: Could she fathom doing it herself? Or does she not emotionally have what it takes to do so?

3) Lucifer IS a different kind of evil...but from what I know of him, he does not pass to me as pure evil, OR the most evil. HE is a complicated, ambiguous, and more neutralized version of evil.

4) Lex is not as evil as Joker. Lex kills for revenge, which many good people do. Not to say that revenge isn't evil, but killing for revenge is not as evil as killing for the sake of pleasure. Joker is more evil than Lex, because Lex kills for power, he kills for goals. Joker kills for FUN....there is a HUGE GAP in the evil here. wink

Lord Urizen
I have bought the Final Issue of the Lucifer Series, and I have some Interesting points to make:

1)Yahweh admits to not being his own creator. "True, I'm Infinite and Eternal. But even I was shaped by forces EXTERNAL to me." That means something else created/shaped his being, independent of his own doing. That throws Juntai's arguments into the garbage. yes

2) Lucifer makes it very clear that he is NOT intentionally or directly responsible for all the evil that exists in mankind. Notice he says "the devil made me do it.....I have NEVER MADE ONE OF THEM DO ANYTHING...NEVER"

And he also says:

"Can you imagine what it was like? Ten Billion Years spent providing a place for dead mortals to torture THEMSELVES?....Why do they Blame ME for thier little failings? they use my NAME as if I spent my entire day sitting on thier shoulders, forcing them to commit acts they would otherwise find repulsive.


3) Finally, Lucifer says :

"I've always been the one who said NO to you father. THAT WAS HOW YOU MADE ME...So I presume you're only testing your workmanship"

Proving that even though Lucifer thought he was disobeying God, he really was just going along with God's plan unwillingly.



Hence, proving that Lucifer is not as evil as some of our contendors here. TAKE THAT JUNTAI ! yes

Grimm22
I dont see why this is still in discussion no expression

Red Skull is the most evil

Big Sexy
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I have bought the Final Issue of the Lucifer Series, and I have some Interesting points to make:

1)Yahweh admits to not being his own creator. "True, I'm Infinite and Eternal. But even I was shaped by forces EXTERNAL to me." That means something else created/shaped his being, independent of his own doing. That throws Juntai's arguments into the garbage. yes

2) Lucifer makes it very clear that he is NOT intentionally or directly responsible for all the evil that exists in mankind. Notice he says "the devil made me do it.....I have NEVER MADE ONE OF THEM DO ANYTHING...NEVER"

And he also says:

"Can you imagine what it was like? Ten Billion Years spent providing a place for dead mortals to torture THEMSELVES?....Why do they Blame ME for thier little failings? they use my NAME as if I spent my entire day sitting on thier shoulders, forcing them to commit acts they would otherwise find repulsive.


3) Finally, Lucifer says :

"I've always been the one who said NO to you father. THAT WAS HOW YOU MADE ME...So I presume you're only testing your workmanship"

Proving that even though Lucifer thought he was disobeying God, he really was just going along with God's plan unwillingly.



Hence, proving that Lucifer is not as evil as some of our contendors here. TAKE THAT JUNTAI ! yes
Lord Urizen , that statement:
True, I'm Infinite and Eternal. But even I was shaped by forces EXTERNAL to me." Its a paradox.

Dalak
Originally posted by Grimm22
I dont see why this is still in discussion no expression

Red Skull is the most evil

Red Skull? He's got NOTHING on Black Mage.

Darth Martin
Joker

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Big Sexy
Lord Urizen , that statement:
True, I'm Infinite and Eternal. But even I was shaped by forces EXTERNAL to me." Its a paradox.

How so ?

Big Sexy
If Yahweh is indeed eternal and infinite, how could he possibly be formed from outside sources. That implies time since at one point he wasn't what he now is, which is hard to consider since hes supposed to be beyond time.

Sea King
mumra he is pure evil big grin

Sea King
or even butters from south park cool

Grimm22
Originally posted by Dalak
Red Skull? He's got NOTHING on Black Mage.

Who?!? no expression

The guy is the ultimate nazi, he takes the nazi ideal to a new level as well as evil

Dalak
Originally posted by Grimm22
Who?!? no expression

The guy is the ultimate nazi, he takes the nazi ideal to a new level as well as evil

He's evil, just not as evil as BM



And an addition from DarkCrawler:

http://www.nuklearpower.com/comics/020814.gif
Black Mage's "Good and Bad Shoulder"

Bicnarok
Kid Marvelman. totally Evil.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Big Sexy
If Yahweh is indeed eternal and infinite, how could he possibly be formed from outside sources. That implies time since at one point he wasn't what he now is, which is hard to consider since hes supposed to be beyond time.

Fair enough, but the point is he is IMPERFECT. Something that is perfect cannot be reshaped without the risk of becoming imperfect, and if it needed to be shaped it was imperfect in the first place.

And you can be infinite and eternal in terms of having no death. You can be born at one point, and be infinite and eternal in one direction.

Or you can die, have an end, but have no birth and have been infinite and eternal in the other direction.

Point is, he was shaped...by something other than himself.

Lord Urizen
Oh and not to mention, just because he is beyond time does not mean he was never born.

He is not his own maker...that was made veryyy CLEAR in the last issue of Lucifer.

Since he transcends the concept and existance of Time, that means he could have been birthed in such an abstract way that does not depend on the timeline, hence warranting no "beginning".

However, he doesn't need a beginning to have been created.

This is all speculation ofcourse, but so far I see no proof that he is Perfect, NOR omnisentient (in terms of his own being formed)

Dalak
Lucifer was forced to rule Hell anyway, Black Mage went after the Job. That implies more evil.

Big Sexy
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Oh and not to mention, just because he is beyond time does not mean he was never born.

He is not his own maker...that was made veryyy CLEAR in the last issue of Lucifer.

Since he transcends the concept and existance of Time, that means he could have been birthed in such an abstract way that does not depend on the timeline, hence warranting no "beginning".

However, he doesn't need a beginning to have been created.

This is all speculation ofcourse, but so far I see no proof that he is Perfect, NOR omnisentient (in terms of his own being formed) Agreed, their have been many instances in which Yahweh has shown he is not perfect. Lucifer in fact is really not that evil and is more of an anti-hero. I just find it a little dumb for God to have a God. Whats next: is God going to have a God that has a God, that has a God, that has a God? That defeats the idea of what God represents.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Big Sexy
Agreed, their have been many instances in which Yahweh has shown he is not perfect. Lucifer in fact is really not that evil and is more of an anti-hero. I just find it a little dumb for God to have a God. Whats next: is God going to have a God that has a God, that has a God, that has a God? That defeats the idea of what God represents.



True, but just because Yahweh was shaped by external forces does not lessen his Godhood. It just lessens his level of perfection/ omniscience / omnipotence / omnisentience / omni-intelligence, etc. And it definately takes him away from the idea of being an Absolute type of entity.

I think we need to separate the concept of God from "supreme being".

The original definition of God was a being responsible for cosmic changes, if you look at Ancient Mythology. Then it became a being that others worship, and that can apply to massive characters in DC/Marvel/Image.

Yahweh may certainly be the "supreme being" in Vertigo, but that does not make him the top of absolute power. Other non-being powers could be superior, independent of, or influential to his being.

kgkg
Originally posted by who?-kid
Carnage, Joker and Darkseid.

Oh and Hitler of course. From the comics and from real life erm
Carnage and JOker are maniacs ........

Dalak
Originally posted by kgkg
Carnage and JOker are maniacs ........

Indeed, and neither is as evil as Black Mage.

Originally posted by Dalak
He's evil, just not as evil as BM


Some Background Info:

http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=020928

http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=031113
http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=031118

http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=040228
http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=040320 - I have this one signed by Brian after a convention

http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=040612
http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=040615
http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=040617 - Too bad, as Brian has admitted many times before, the world is against Black Mage.

http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=041127
he saves them with a Hadoken when the Deathtra . . .I mean Airship crashed.
http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=041209

http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=050901
http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=050903

http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=051018
http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=051020
http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=051022
he faked the stab under his arm, and then this happens
http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=051027

And an addition from DarkCrawler:

http://www.nuklearpower.com/comics/020814.gif
Black Mage's "Good and Bad Shoulder"

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