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Revan strips him of the force.

Palpatine butchers Revan

Revan shields himself with the true light, and then strips Palpatine of the force. Then he just toys with him for fun.

Although I can't stand either of these characters I would have to say. . .Dooku. Lol. . .

Revan WTF pwns the ROTS dark lord.

Hasn't this been done before? And isn't Revan too big of an unknown to come to any conclusion.

Palpatine wins.

How? Revan defeated hundreds of sith and dark jedi getting to malak, who he defeated even though Malak kept getting power from the star forge and other force users. what did sidious do? get put on his ass by mace?

Prove Revan defeated those Jedi. Palpatine's only mastered the darkest secrets of the Dark Lords...and y'know, summoned the spirits of the Ancient Sith to both increase his own power and learn

Originally posted by Null ARC Avis
How? Revan defeated hundreds of sith and dark jedi getting to malak, who he defeated even though Malak kept getting power from the star forge and other force users. what did sidious do? get put on his ass by mace?

Revan is as strong as you make him in the game. Revan did not go through hundreds and if anything he fought them in groups of three with help. Revan also doesn't loose a limb when a lightsaber cuts through him.

Revan hasn't been seen doing anything in the in-game cutscenes or anything. Really he is a huge unknown.

Which Palpatine?

Confirmed (sith) kills for Revan:

- Dark Jedi master on Taris
- Three Dark Jedi
- Bandon
- Bastila (Defeated)
- Malak

Not much, eh? Still, I'd rank him above RotS Palpatine.

Bandon was the second in a Sith Order of thousands. He was probably the second strongest in the Sith Empire, or at least, he'd have incredible potential.

Bastila was more powerful than Bandon.

Malak was the head honcho in a Sith Empire of thousands where the strongest rule. He would likely be very powerful, probably on Mace's or Dooku's level. He also served as the frontline general in a bloody war. He was more powerful than Council members, because he could control the Star Forge when they could not, and he did best Kavar (leader of the Jedi Guardians, one of the best duelists in the Order). Revan took him down when he had his powers amplified by the Star Forge...

Revan probably has this. Not easily, but he has it.

Sidious would rip him apart using the force. He is far more impressive than Revan. Throwing senate pods around like nothing, being on the same level as Yoda, um... this: http://www.swcomics.com/empire_c.php?i=24&f=3&name=Star_Wars_-_Empire_3 . Sidious has this in the bag.

That's great, but that's Palpatine after RotS. After RotS, he could practise the dark side openly.

Anyways, substantiate that force storm to a force user as powerful as Revan, who slaughtered Rakata similarly...

The fact remains that Revan hasn't shown us anything with the force as powerful as what Sidious has demonstrated. Sidious throws around senate pods with no effort. If Revan had done anything that powerful, canonically, they would have mentioned something.

The fact remains that Revan hasn't shown us anything with the force as powerful as what Sidious has demonstrated.

Well duh. Revan is all gameplay. I'm going by deduction here.

Sidious throws around senate pods with no effort. If Revan had done anything that powerful, canonically, they would have mentioned something.

They did. The Rakata mentions Revan frying their scout party with a large force storm. They were in awe of his power.

Anyways, citing specific examples isn't the only way to prove one powerful. 5 years later, people wouldn't be like "Whoa, Revan was so pwnzors when he fought Bandon! He picked up a swoop bike and tossed it around like a tennis ball!".

But 5 years later, people like Handmaiden, Mandalore, Kreia, etc. were all in awe of his combat abilities.

ROTS PAlpatine is already able to at stand up to Yoda for a time...that should be enough.

Originally posted by Razielim
The fact remains that Revan hasn't shown us anything with the force as powerful as what Sidious has demonstrated.

Well duh. Revan is all gameplay. I'm going by deduction here.

Sidious throws around senate pods with no effort. If Revan had done anything that powerful, canonically, they would have mentioned something.

They did. The Rakata mentions Revan frying their scout party with a large force storm. They were in awe of his power.

Anyways, citing specific examples isn't the only way to prove one powerful. 5 years later, people wouldn't be like "Whoa, Revan was so pwnzors when he fought Bandon! He picked up a swoop bike and tossed it around like a tennis ball!".

But 5 years later, people like Handmaiden, Mandalore, Kreia, etc. were all in awe of his combat abilities.

Actually they said it was like lighting coming down from the sky which could mean a lot of things.

Like... blaster bolts, possibly?

Maybe, maybe not. There was a field around the Star Forge that prevented ships from getting near it but then again it could have been deactivated at the time or it doesn't work on all ships because the Sith Fleet wouldn't be able to leave the Star Forge then.

It's unlikely. He would have had to be able to work with the ship with perfect precision and cohesion after he gained the Rakata's trust and worked his way through the Temple...

Their isn't a clear record on what happened that day. So it's a huge unknown and shouldn't be considered to be from Revan until it has been proven like with KoToR III

got a question for u guys. For the ppl that said that Revan could beat Palpatine, then why did most of u guys vote Palpatine in "the best overall sith"?

Best =/= most powerful.

Originally posted by Razielim
Confirmed (sith) kills for Revan:

- Dark Jedi master on Taris
- Three Dark Jedi
- Bandon
- Bastila (Defeated)
- Malak


That was a Sith Governer not Dark Jedi Master.

He also killed :

Dark Jedi Master on Manan Killed 4 of them on the Leviathan, killed two Sith Head Masters of the Academy on Korriban and killed the Sith Master in the Rakatan Empire who was the third Most Powerful in the entire Empire 1st Malak 2nd Bastila 3rd Sith Master.

i'd say revan is better with the force but with a saber i'd say palptine it would be close but revan would win

Originally posted by mikester
got a question for u guys. For the ppl that said that Revan could beat Palpatine, then why did most of u guys vote Palpatine in "the best overall sith"?

Because Palpatine is the best in the fact that he did something no other Sith did, he destroyed the Jedi and took control of the entire galaxy.

Ehh . . . I think that Revan would defeat any PT Jedi or Sith Lord in single combat. Not WTFpwn, but soundly defeat - and that includes Sidious. But that is my personal opinion.

Still good points are offered -

- Palpatine's electrocuted dozens of Stormtroopers (killing them instantly) in a single blast.

- Palpatine's Force Lightning has also have dealt mortal wounds to several Jedi before.

If this is RotS - Sidious stands a chance, but I think Revan beats him.

If this is anything after RotS, like ANH, I think Revan has a great chance of losing.

If this is Dark Empire, Revan gets his ass handed to him.

Also, "best" (I have to assume) is indicative of achievements.

In terms of achievements, Palpatine is above any other Sith Lord. But this is a versus mode where his political/military achievements bear nothing on the argument.

I think that RotS Sidious would lose to Revan . . . but it's just my opinion.

Originally posted by Razielim
Confirmed (sith) kills for Revan:

- Dark Jedi master on Taris
- Three Dark Jedi
- Bandon
- Bastila (Defeated)
- Malak

well, when you think about it Palpatine didn't kill much

-Agen Kolar
-Sassee Tiin
-Kit Fisto

and thats it.. i didnt count mace because tekincally, he didnt kill him

Yes,he did.Anakin may have sliced Mace's hand off,but it was Palpatine who dealt the final blow.

Revan is in no way defeating Palpatine or Yoda, or Mace for that matter. the PT was the Jedi golden age for a reason

Was the PT era actually stated as the 'golden age of the jedi'? If it was, that does not necessarily mean that it was the time when the jedi were strongest, but more so a time where there is relative peace. That would be a golden age for the jedi, as relative peace is the jedi order's ultimate goal and hope.

George Lucas was specifically referring to lightsaber combat...

WOW that's incredibly hard. hmm, I'd have to say Revan though. Barely. Sidous took complete control of the galaxy making him the greatest sith ever in my respect, but not he most powerful.

I believe that the power of force users in the star wars galaxy have greatly diminished due to the fact that there are constant wars and battles. Knowledge is lost. Palpatine derived most of his power from the extremely potent Kyber crystal he wielded.

Judging from the fact that there is a 3,000 year gap between the rule of Marka Ragnos and Reven, concurrently there is a 4,000 year gap between Reven and Sidous. I believe The most powerful force users 4000 years ago greatly surpasses the greatest force user of ROTS.

I just wish we had more to go on in terms of proof of revans power, as i am sure KOTOR has played down his skills for a more viable gaming experience.

I agree. Though PT Sidious could possibly take him - and DE Sidious would waste him.



Firstly, this makes no sense. Wars and battles would allow them sufficient environments and situations to practice the Force and use it often. Knowledge could also be gained in wars as well.

Secondly, erm . . . did you read "Supershadow"?



This also doesn't make sense. Why would the "ancient Sith" have more knowledge about the Force when - much like technology and civilization - the older something gets, the more refined and experienced it gets. It expands.

Do people still actually believe SS about the Kaiburr Crystal?

The Kaliburr crystal is canon but the Kyber crystal isn't. . .

Originally posted by Razielim
George Lucas was specifically referring to lightsaber combat...

Well I heard him state that the PT era is the golden age of saber dueling , however IIRC he was saying that it was the golden age of saber dueling in comparison to the OT era and solely relative to the movies.

Originally posted by Razielim
The Kaliburr crystal is canon but the Kyber crystal isn't. . .

I was just referring to SS's claim that Sidious had the Kyber/Kaiburr Crystal in his saber...or whatever it was.

Originally posted by Razielim
The Kaliburr crystal is canon but the Kyber crystal isn't. . .

Actually The Kaiburr crystal is non-canon at least in Splinter of the Minds Eye its N-Canon, because that whole story was taken out of canon for contradicting stuff in ESB.

If my memory serves me correctly the ONLY canon version of the Kaiburr crystal is in KOTOR II, as an item, though I cant remember what it does.

In KOTOR II, it's basically just a fairly strong crystal. Its stats are:

Wisdom: +3

Constitution: +3

Regeneration: 3

Kool, thanks

Originally posted by Escape81
I agree. Though PT Sidious could possibly take him - and DE Sidious would waste him.

Yeah, exactly. People need to be more specific in threads, but oh well.


Originally posted by Escape81

Firstly, this makes no sense. Wars and battles would allow them sufficient environments and situations to practice the Force and use it often. Knowledge could also be gained in wars as well.

Sure, in some instances knowledge is gained. Like the discovery of Battle meditation for example. Yet frequently knowledge is lost. In the battle of Russan, when darth bane declared the "rule of two" i'm almost sure much (or at least some) of the knowledge of the force was lost. Almost like when emperor palpatine destroyed almost all of the jedi's ways during the purge.

Originally posted by Escape81
Secondly, erm . . . did you read "Supershadow"?

whugs supershadow?



Originally posted by Escape81
This also doesn't make sense. Why would the "ancient Sith" have more knowledge about the Force when - much like technology and civilization - the older something gets, the more refined and experienced it gets. It expands.

You can't compare the progression of technology to the knowledge of the force. People are very much willing to progress in terms of technology and civilization, but the knowledge of the force is a religion. Every time somebody tries to make an advancement in it, and perhaps a new way of looking at it they are immediately marked a rebel or rouge. Much like Qui gon.

Originally posted by Darth Solus
whugs supershadow?
A site with incredible SW information for little kids and mentally retarded grown ups!

Originally posted by overlord
A site with incredible SW information for little kids and mentally retarded grown ups!

oh ok. thanx.

Who is Supershadow? Some hack who claims to be close friends with George Lucas (As in GL asked him to make SW VII, VIII, and IX close), claims he has a supermodel girlfriend, and generally makes a fool of himself.

If you want an amusing read, look him up on Wookieepedia.com

Revan owns.

Originally posted by Escape81
I agree. Though PT Sidious could possibly take him - and DE Sidious would waste him.

Yes. I agree since we basically know nothing about Revan's power.



Excuse me, Escape. But the people of Revan's time had seen more wars than the PT people. Same for the guys in the "Jedi vs Sith" era. The point is that the Sith and the Jedi were almost exterminated several times.

The Sith:
- after the first shism
- after the great hyperspace war
- after the last battle of Ruusan

The Jedi:
- Jedi Civil War
- last battle of Ruusan
- Jedi Purge

And for both you have cases when places with much knowledge stored were plundered and destroyed. Korriban, Ziost, Malachor V for the Sith. Ossus, Dantooine and possibly even the temple on Coruscant (somebody says something like this in KotoR 2) for the Jedi. Of course knowledge was lost there - how much ? Well...there was only a limited amount of practioners left after certain actions. I mean...the Great Hyperspace War left one (!) Sith Lord alive, the Jedi Civil War ended with the Exile as only fully trained Jedi left and so on.

There is of course the possibility that knowledge stays within the galaxy and of course new techniques can be invented but it's pretty hard to reinvent or rediscover knowledge that was amassed over 20,000 years in the matter of 1,000 or 4,000 years.



Ah...and here we have a little problem. If you take our own beloved earth as an example: There are scientists that belief (and have proof for this) that people used electricity (for light sources) in the age of the ancient Egypt. They somehow figured out how to build their nice pyramids according to astronomical symetry. Then you have skulls crafted out of rock crystal, thousands of years old, when even todays technology isn't able to reproduce them. Not to mention old Sanskrit texts that descripe something similar to the detonation of nuclear bombs. And of course myths like Atlantis.

The point is that knowledge archieved by a certain culture sometimes is lost because of natural catastrophies, wars or simple cultural decline. The Rakataan (Star Forge, Hyperdrives) are a good example for that stuff inside of the SW universe, same with Centerpoint Station. Technology that people living 20,000 or 100,000s of years later couldn't reproduce. You can even take the Ancient Sith as example. Have a look at Sadow's ship - able to destroy star-systems and cause supernovas and then it took 5,000 years and the most genious guys in the Empire to develop something similar with the Sun Crusher.

If such things can happen in terms of technology, why should that be completely impossible when it comes to force powers or techniques ?
We know that things like the force storm or the "force drain" ability as displayed in KotoR2 were basically "lost" until Bane and later Sidious did show up. We know that a single female Sith Lord on Ambria did destroy all live on the planet. We see knowledge that might have been commonly taught and used in one era being placed on the "black list" in another in the Jedi Order because it didn't fit the philosophy any longer. How many PT Jedi did you see using a "Wall of Light" attack against Dark Jedi Sith...or even stuff like "Moricho" ?

Technically we have a "gap" in knowledge for the Sith between Kun, Ulic, Revan and Malak around 4,000 BBY and the people that started the New Sith Empire in 2,000 BBY with a single Sith holocron stolen from the temple. So Sidious is technically the "heir" of a "Sith culture" that was developed over 2,000 years while people like Sadow and Ragnos came from a "Sith culture" that developed over 2,100 years (at least) or even 20,000 years. That gave them a wider "knowledge base" and of course their lifetime exceeded that of Sidious giving them more time to refine that knowledge.

That of course doesn't matter for Revan as he just gathered the remains of that culture and didn't have much time to refine and train it. Sidious will most likely defeat him in terms of force knowledge and ability. In a saberduell I'd give Revan a decent chance as he was a legendary duellist but if anything goes Sidious will win this.

Actually, Abel G. Pena's new hyperspace article gave a LOT of info on sith history and how things refined throughout the millenia. We learn exactly who and what Adas was for example. That 'single holocron' of Nadd's that went to Bane contained over 28,000 years of knowledge.

Oh, and few Sith lived over two hundred...Simus was an exception and Adas was three hundred when he died

If it's ROTS Palpatine then Revan wins, but DE Palpatine'd beat Revan.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Actually, Abel G. Pena's new hyperspace article gave a LOT of info on sith history and how things refined throughout the millenia. We learn exactly who and what Adas was for example. That 'single holocron' of Nadd's that went to Bane contained over 28,000 years of knowledge.

Oh, and few Sith lived over two hundred...Simus was an exception and Adas was three hundred when he died

Oh my. And some sources mentioned in TOTJ contain 100,000 years of knowledge. The point is: "What sort of knowledge" ? Obviously no force knowledge since they started using that 24,000 years before Bane. Even more obviously: No Sith knowledge as (if you want to cling to the NEC) there were only 6,000 years of Sith lore during that time.

And Adas is a funny dude, yes. The problem I have with the article is that it states that he led the Sith race and defeated the Rakatan - while KotoR states that the Rakatan left the star maps on planets they conquered. Aside of this: If the Sith before the Dark Jedi from the Hundret-Year-Darkness arrived were so strong - strong enough to defeat a race with far higher developed technology due to their force mastery (and this almost 21,000 years before said Jedi arrived) - and they used to worship those Dark Jedi as gods that just speaks for them and their heirs - the ancients Dark Lords - being pretty uber.

I bet it was like the Ewoks defeating the Storm troopers at the battle of Endor.

z0mg, the Ewoks worshipped C3PO as a God. He must have been teh uber!

Originally posted by Razielim
I bet it was like the Ewoks defeating the Storm troopers at the battle of Endor.

z0mg, the Ewoks worshipped C3PO as a God. He must have been teh uber!

Totally compareable...

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh my. And some sources mentioned in TOTJ contain 100,000 years of knowledge. The point is: "What sort of knowledge" ? Obviously no force knowledge since they started using that 24,000 years before Bane. Even more obviously: No Sith knowledge as (if you want to cling to the NEC) there were only 6,000 years of Sith lore during that time.

And Adas is a funny dude, yes. The problem I have with the article is that it states that he led the Sith race and defeated the Rakatan - while KotoR states that the Rakatan left the star maps on planets they conquered. Aside of this: If the Sith before the Dark Jedi from the Hundret-Year-Darkness arrived were so strong - strong enough to defeat a race with far higher developed technology due to their force mastery (and this almost 21,000 years before said Jedi arrived) - and they used to worship those Dark Jedi as gods that just speaks for them and their heirs - the ancients Dark Lords - being pretty uber.

Except the Dark Jedi were Gods simply because they tricked and killed the Sith king at the time and their bloodlines diluted and watered down the power of the race, even moreso as a result of their ruthless divisions of the caste system.

and the Sith WERE primitive, Adas died defeating the Rakata. And Adas was considered probably the most powerful Dark Lord in the Sith history, leading to his deification

And no force knowledge? Nadd learned from it and gained power from it...te culture of the Sith, even as primitive was built up with the Dark Side before the Dark Jedi even arrived.

Originally posted by Razielim
I bet it was like the Ewoks defeating the Storm troopers at the battle of Endor.

z0mg, the Ewoks worshipped C3PO as a God. He must have been teh uber! I've said this for years, no one believed me.

Dude. STFU and GTFO.

Originally posted by Lord Dragonfire
Dude. STFU and GTFO. Woah! Pretty awesome comeback! Go celebrate!

Please don't quote me wrongly.

Yeah, you had to quickly change it because those abbrevations are unacceptable in the Star Wars community. Why do you even bother in the first place..

Actually, I changed it back.

I'm banned.

If it is ROTS Sidious and before, then Revan wins. DE Sidious would beat Revan though.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Except the Dark Jedi were Gods simply because they tricked and killed the Sith king at the time and their bloodlines diluted and watered down the power of the race, even moreso as a result of their ruthless divisions of the caste system.


Oh please, Lightsnake. Use some common sense. You really think that you can "trick" an entire race of quite skilled force users into worshipping you because of your uber force powers by just tricking and killing one of them ?

And then the bloodlines (of the Dark Jedi ?) diluted and watered down ? I like how Rangos mentioned that some of them started interbreeding with the Sith and those terms are used in a Nazi like way - with some Harry Potter attitude. Half-blood ? Pure blood ? Come on. We saw people with pure Sith blood (Adas) being quite powerful - at least he seems to be from the description while Ragnos basically states that "the more true Jedi blood you have, the better". And then he mentions how Sadow (or Kressh ? - don't remember) has very much Jedi blood in veins. Considering that he is called a half-blood at least one of his parents would have been 100 % human.



It's nice how he can be the greatest "Dark Lord" before said title was even invented. He was one of their most powerful rulers in this era, yes. Not to mention that you are basically supporting my point - the only thing they had to defend themselves from the Rakatan was the force (Sith Magic) and they managed to defeat them even though the Rakatan were a race of force users too and equippid with far superior technology.



Eh ? The point is that the original Sith are primitive and more "shamanistic" or "religious" when using the Dark Side - meaning a ritualized form of usage instead of direct action. Hence that was called Sith magic and the actual force using caste was a "priest caste".

And in this situation the Dark Jedi with their ability to use the force instantly had an advantage. Possibly Adas was able to do that too, hence being threatened like a god among his people. It's simply more impressive if one just raises his hands and has some supernatural action going on compared to somebody who starts "praying" or using some "ritual" to receive effect X.

So what would "Sith knowledge" give a "modern" force user when he basically has to use it their way (making it quite unsuitable in direct confrontation) or blend it with his own way to use the force ?

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh please, Lightsnake. Use some common sense. You really think that you can "trick" an entire race of quite skilled force users into worshipping you because of your uber force powers by just tricking and killing one of them ?

"Eventually, almost two-dozen millennia after Adas' death, a proper successor to Adas seemed to come at last. Known in Republic space as the Exiles, traitorous Jedi defeated in a galactic war called the Hundred-Year Darkness arrived on Korriban and cowed the Sith people with their astounding Force abilities, lightsabers, and superior technology. With the help of the ruling king's Shadow Hand, these Jen'jidai, as the Sith called them, lured the Sith monarch into their confidence and destroyed him. Never anticipating this stunning sequence of events, the Sith people concluded that the dark Jedi were themselves more powerful gods than even the Sith'ari. Bestowing the Exiles with Adas' holocron, the reign of the first Jen'ari, or "Dark Lord" of the Sith began."

you guys know kount kent was lord D fire right?

Totally!

Ewoks = Primitive underdogs = Ancient Sith.

The Stormtroopers = overestimated technologically advanced military unit = The Rakata

C3PO = Dark Jedi!

Yes, Legion, already dealt with it.

And Borborad, that's kinda exactly what happened. As stupid as Kent is, he's not making up this passage that he just posted. It's from the Sith supplement of Insider 88.

Sorry, but a combination of the dark Jedi mastery, plus their technology and killing the Sith King...it's written there, BLACK AND WHITE. And to quote TOTJ: "Some of them interbred with the Sith watering down powerful bloodlines." And all Ragnos says is some of them interbred and some still bear true Jedi Blood. Naga even had minimal Sith blood.
And considering by Ragnos's time, not a single full human was left alive...Oh, and Adas was the Jen'Ari...meaning Dark Lord. dathka Graush was a DLOTS as well, just before or prior to the reign of the first fully human DLOTS.

And Sith magic was simply the dark side abilities they used in a generalization. King Ommin used Sith Magic that Nadd taught him that Nadd learned from Naga and Adas's holocron which was passed down and gained more knowledge and inside power on the way. And considering the Sith magic and Sith spells we've seen have worked instantaneously and in other cases ritualized, it could easily be both. nThe dark Jedi were worshipped because of their technology and their murder of the reigning Jen'Ari, that simple
And oh, are the Ewoks godly? They beat the Empire...the Wookies beat the Trandoshans, too...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Sorry, but a combination of the dark Jedi mastery, plus their technology and killing the Sith King...it's written there, BLACK AND WHITE.

As I read here they "cowed" the Sith with their force mastery, lightsabers and technology already. Why do they need to manipulate the king then ? They did, yes...doesn't mean they had to ?



Yes. Some. I wonder what the others did. And I love how you completely ignored my comments on Ragnos nice "blood lines watering down" theory.



I like to see your source for this especially if only "some" of the original (human ?) Dark Jedi did interbred with the Sith. Ragnos is talking about Jedi blood which doesn't necesserily equal human blood in an universe filled with hundrets of different species. And do you really think that Ragnos father / mother was the last non-Sith being in the entire Sith Empire ? Very unlikely.



Interesting. Is this why the article states that: "Bestowing the Exiles with Adas' holocron, the reign of the first Jen'ari, or "Dark Lord" of the Sith began." ? So the first Dark Lord was one of the Dark Jedi that came to Korriban meaning this title was "invented" then.



The small problem here is that all Sith Magic we see getting used was already "modified". Think about the Witches of Dathomir when Luke encounters them first. They have pretty powerful individuals there - still only the most powerful ones could levitate a lightsaber which is a pretty easy thing to do using the force.

Yet even in times of the NSE some sorts of force use still required a ritual (as Bane and Kaan both did use for their actions) while we see ancient Sith doing basically the same stuff while fighting Jedi (the female Sith on Ambria) or using some mere gestures.

And I like how you simply claim that more "useful" knowledge was stored in the holocron. First the thing was "lost" for at least 3,400 years (between Nadd's rule on Onderon and the moment Bane rediscovered it) and then we see all force powers being used in the "modern" era dating back to the ancient time period. Not to mention it's quite senseless for Sidious to write a Dark Side Compendium if he already had stored everything in a holocron and all he had to do was to add his own thougts and comments.



Yes...let's just ingore their "astounding Force abilities" that made the Sith think they had found proper sucessors for Adas.



As I said: Dumb comparison.

1)
The Rakatan were a species of force users and considering the facts that they used the force to manouver their ships, built some "force based" artifact in the size of a space station and invented holocrons they were considerably good at what they were doing. In contrary to Stormtroopers that can't even shoot straight.

2)
The Empire didn't care about the Ewoks if they even noticed them. Since they could built some traps right in front of the Imperial forces on Endor I guess they weren't noticed before. The Rakatan "taught" the Sith.

3)
Rakatan vs Sith wasn't guerilla warfare happening on a jungle planet with the Sith receiving back-up from forces with equal technological knowledge, weapons and combat training (compared to the Rakatan) like it happened on Endor and a nice space fleet to keep the enemy forces in orbit busy. Have a look at ROTJ and watch how many Imperials get killed by Chewie in the AT-ST he took over, Han shooting from the bunker entrance and the Rebels who grapped some of the Imperial weapons.

That's like dropping a bunch of Yuuzhan Vong and NJO Jedi including DN Luke on Korriban to fight against the Rakatan together with the Sith and then say the Sith did win the battle on their own. Doesn't make sense.

4)
Just to answer the C-3PO point: If the Ewoks would have defeated the Imperials on their own in a straight military action and then would have elected C-3PO as their "god" because of his combat prowess or him killing their best warrior that would match the situation with Sith and Dark Jedi. Did that happen ? No. I don't think so.

Originally posted by Borbarad
In a saberduell I'd give Revan a decent chance as he was a legendary duellist but if anything goes Sidious will win this.

Where was it ever said or implied that Revan was a legendary duelist?

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/6797/sign7bz.png

Considering killing the reigning Jen'Ari convinced the Sith that the Dark Jedi were gods, I think that had a BIT to do with it,..

Great theory since Ragnos makes one little comment on it.

See any non-Sith being in the entirety of the empire? All the lords were either hybrids or full Sith. There hadn't been a Jedi left for centuries.

So, being a Sith KING, and Sith'Ari, Adas would be above a general DLOTS? Since many had been Sith Lords before Adas anyways. And Dathka Graush is called a DLOTS

Oh, please, saw 'saw' the Female Sith on Ambria? Or did she have a massive ritual with her followers prepared and unleash it when Thon confronted her? And Kaan set up the Thought Bomb by clapping his hands. Bane utilized the other Sith to increase the power of the attack to a FAR greater scale than global. When did the Sith Lords in the Ancient Empire do things 'with a gesture' now?

And Palpatine had plenty of Holocrons before he started writing the Compendium....and Adas's holocron fell into his hands as well. There's a difference between a book and a holocron and Lumiya's rumored to have one of the holocrons Palpatine possessed.

The astounding force abilities like...killing the Sith King with help from his treacherous numero dos?

And once more, there is zero proof how Adas and the Sith won the battle against the Rakatans. especially considering Adas died in the fighting and was stated to have used his battle axe in the battles.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Considering killing the reigning Jen'Ari convinced the Sith that the Dark Jedi were gods, I think that had a BIT to do with it,..


The Dark Jedi scared the **** out of them with their force powers, lightsabers and superior technology already. So what need did they have to "cooperate" with the king anyways ?



Excuse me - but you were using this comment to conclude a "weakness" due to "powerful bloodlines watering down" among the ancient Sith.



Wow. Because we see so much of the Empire, right ? Most of the action is limited to the Council Chamber, the Council Members and their bases. Not to mention that one single being of a certain species is a very unlikely situation. Same with the idea that people not interbred with the Sith for 2,000 years and then suddenly did so.



I love how you take everything of newer sources as absolute canon and keep saying "retcon" when said retcon fits your oppinion but suddenly, when that isn't the case the source must be wrong.



I don't see something being called a "duel" when one of the participants has an army of followers and a ritual set up to defeat some Jedi who somehow shows up on the planet on his own. "Oh. One Minute ago I felt this presence in the force. Seems to be a powerful Jedi. Hey...minions...let's prepare a ritual and destroy every living thing on the planet when he shows up here in...another minute."



The thought bomb was prepared before so what ? And far greater scale than "global" ? This is why just Ruusan was affected. Meh...
Sadow "causing the death of a star-system" - just a movement with both hands shown. Holding hands up, forming fists, fleet behind him gone. Existance of solar system jeopardized.



You don't see the logical error here, do you ? If basically all knowledge that the Sith had before the Dark Jedi arrived and then the knowledge they developed after this point were stored in Adas's holocron there would be no need for other sources - especially no other Sith holocrons as all the knowledge that could possibly have been stored within them is already part of Adas's holocron. See what I'm talking about ?

Either the holocron did contain all possible information (in this case other source of Sith knowledge would be useless) or it didn't in which case huge amount of Sith knowledge could have been lost over the years.



This is such an idiotic interpretation, Lightsnake and I guess you figured that out yourself. They scared the Sith with their force abilities before killing their king. The one thing doesn't have to do anything with the other. If I could kill human beings at will with a blink of an eye but prefer to shoot them that doesn't mean I'm suddenly not able to kill them with the blink of an eye.



What do you want to tell me here ? They were obviously fighting on Korriban or above Korriban since that was the Sith homeworld and they didn't invent intergalactic travel at this point not to mention that themselves were under control or threatened by the Infinite Empire. And Korriban was a freaking desert planet not to mention that there weren't people that could have supported the Sith. And if Adas used his axe that would most likely mean that they engaged in some kind of direct melee combat. In contrary to the Ewoks against the Stormtroopers.

It was killing the Sith King that convinced the Sith people the Dark Jedi were Gods. No more no less and that's stated in the story.

Ummm, no I wasn't. I was referring to the NARRARATOR quote about bloodlines being watered down while Ragnos just said "Some us have interbred" blah blah blah

Hm, I look at the Sith council, I look at the Kissai...and I see...NO remainders of anyone of Jedi blood and the only ones who'd be compatible with the sith would need to be humanoid in a close manner to relate in biology. And besides Anzati not many known species look closely humanoid and live over a thousand years. While I'm on that, in the Sith high council where WERE those remaining Jedi? We got a good look at the Sith there.

Ain't it great how the article even saids there'd been many Sith Lords even before Adas?

Ok, so the female Sith had it set up before Thon reached her, unleashed it to kill him and then fought him. Plus, her Sith status is a bit dubious considering the Jedi are revealed to have exterminated the Sith in genocide exceeding the typical Bothan Ar'Krai and after Nadd died the cult was dead until Exar. Mainly this was intended to eliminate this assertion that she suddenly raised her hands and Ambria was cleared of life. Which is an assumption.

Yes, Bane's plan was was to wipe out the Jedi completely before the other 26 pulled out...oh, and why do we ignore how Sadow's ship did the work and he activated it? Or are we going to use the DLOTS comic as 'proof' and ignore everything else to the contrary from the Sith War. To the Chronologies...to Golden Ae of the Sith, to Weapons and Technology...

So Adas's holocron was the most treasured of all holocrons and contained all the Sith secrets both from prior to Adas's reign, all 100,000 years of it, and then after, as more Dark Lords added to it, until it fell to Nadd, then Bane, then Palpatine...meaning things were added to it. Or the Dark Jedi's descendants simply assimilated into the culture and combined it, along with holocrons produced later, or ifnormation added...considering Adas's holocron was the empire's greatest prize.

Hm, and the article states:"With the help of the ruling
king's Shadow Hand, these Jen'jidai, as the Sith
called them, lured the Sith monarch into their
confidence and destroyed him. Never anticipating this
stunning sequence of events, the Sith people concluded
that the dark Jedi were themselves more powerful gods
than even the Sith'ari"

Black and white. Seems this is the event that cowed the Sith people.

There is nothing to say Korriban has always been a desert as it was devastated in the war forcing the Sith to relocate to Ziost. And if Adas used his axe, that could easily denote raids and guerilla warfare.

Girls, girls, you're both pretty. This has gotten out of hand. I don't see why Ancient sith have to do with this thread.
Sidious can chuck around multiple senate pods with ease.
Tied Yoda, but due to his use of terrain and his bigger size, he was left the victor.
Blasted Mace.
Owned three Jedi Masters in seconds.
... http://www.swcomics.com/empire_c.php?i=24&f=3&name=Star_Wars_-_Empire_3
Oh yeah, took control of the galaxy, if that counts for anything.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It was killing the Sith King that convinced the Sith people the Dark Jedi were Gods. No more no less and that's stated in the story.


Read it again please. The killing made the Sith think that the Dark Jedi are more powerful then their orignal "gods" (or Adas in this case) but they were already impressed by their force powers, lightsaber and technology ranking them equal to their kings. See the point ?



In case you didn't notice: That is Ragnos telling Kressh and Sadow the story of the Sith Empire and not a narrator.



Oh wow. You can see what kind of blood people have in their veins and tell me everything about there ancestors by looking at them. And of course, since it's told that they used Sith Alchemy for interbreeding in some cases you must be close to a human in order to have a child with a human. And of course you must understand me wrong: I was more thinking about people not interbreeding with the Sith but with each other (you know...male and female Dark Jedi). This would be quite likely if they thought that some interbreeding with the (weaker ?) Sith would cause their "powerful bloodlines" watering down. That would at least explain why Ragnos was the only "half-blood" (human mother / father) in the council.



Yes. And isn't it stated in every source so far that being a "Sith Lord" doesn't equal being the Dark Lord of the Sith.



Thon reached the planet and fought said Sith Lady before Kun even showed up and it was mentioned that she belonged (or was left) of the Ancient Sith Empire. So that doesn't have anything to do with Nadd and Exar. And it's nice how you are an expert now for the reason why some things are put into the sources.



The Chronologies descriping two events like this with one where the ship was used and one where Sadow used his own power ? Are you talking about this ? No ? And because the other 26 pulled out we don't even know if this would have worked or to what extend in the physical world it would have worked. Very unlikely that you can kill every Jedi in the Galaxy while being on a certain planet.



I love how you simply ignore what I did post.



No.
"Known in Republic space as the Exiles, traitorous Jedi defeated in a galactic war called the Hundred-Year Darkness arrived on Korriban and cowed the Sith people with their astounding Force abilities, lightsabers, and superior technology." <- anything about using the king here or killing them and that "cowing" the Sith. No. Force powers, lightsabers, technology. That's it.



Yes. Guerrila warriors attacking with melee weapons. Still the more powerful support from equally advanced partitioners (that the Ewoks did have) is missing. Hell...we don't even know if they figured out the traps themselves or if that was planned by the rebels. Not to mention that the Rakatan were a species of force users. Think about it - how useful is "guerilla warfare" against people that can sense where you are and have powers at hand to escape from traps ?

No, it was the death of the Sith king that made the Sith believe that the Dark Jedi were Gods and more powerful than the Sith'Ari...killing the Jen'Jidai cowed them

In case you didn't notice Ragnos is long gone by the time that narraration states powerful bloodlines are watered down.

When'd they ever use Sith alchemy for inbreeding? PErhaps you noticed how the 'two peoples became one' and only the Sith crossbreed descendants remained? There were Sith and Sith crossbreeds like Naga but that was it. Ragnos's couldn't have been a half breed because by the time he would've been born-and not many Sith even lived past two hundred now apparently- it'd be millenia since the 'peoples had become one.'

Fascinating. So, apparently, the Destruction of Ambria no longer exists because several recent sources have stated that the Sith peoples were brought into total extinction with the death of Sadow and that the Jedi wiped them out to the man. Meaning Thon was either facing noone now, or he was facing a self-proclaimed Sith with the teachings. Know why? Because it's now confirmed besides Sadow and the relics, there was nothing left of the Ancient Sith Empire, the Jedi genocided them into nonexistence. And Bane's own power deforested Ruusan...his attack was intended to wipe out the Jedi completely.

So, adas was the first Dark Lord, then.

Chronologies never state Sadow used his own power...just that he used Sith power. And other sources call it using an 'electrical weapon'

Did you read the sentence after that? The article directly says killing the Sith King made the Sith think they were gods. So, their rule wasn't embraced immediately and the death of the king cowed the Sith and convinced them the Dark Jedi were gods. Quote the entire phrase

Really, what's the ignore here? adas's holocron was the best holocron around and contained dark side teachings stretching back the entire span of the sith Empire, there's something unclear here?

The article outright states Adas led a resistance against the rakata, drove them back with his axe and died in the process. Nothing hints it was a battle of the force except in small cases.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
No, it was the death of the Sith king that made the Sith believe that the Dark Jedi were Gods and more powerful than the Sith'Ari...killing the Jen'Jidai cowed them

You are contradicting the text dude. They cowed the Sith with their force powers, lightsabers and technology. Action A: Sith were cowed. And then killing the ruler made the Sith believe that they were more powerful then their gods. And this was action B.



In case you're not remembering the comic right...

Ragnos appears:
http://swcomics.dreamhoster.org/oldrepublic/oldrepublic_03_18.jpg

Then he talks about the history of the Sith and then the nice blood line comment is given (2 pages later):
http://swcomics.dreamhoster.org/oldrepublic/oldrepublic_03_20.jpg

Ragnos: "After many centuries some of us have interbred with the sith...while others still bear true Jedi blood."



Oh not again...
It's clearly said that some of the Dark Jedi did interbred with the Sith while the others didn't so which means they had children of true Jedi blood. After 80 generations you wouldn't have people with "strong Jedi blood" any longer otherwise. And Ragnos is called a "half-blood" so please don't start contradicting the source material with your nice little ideas.



More bullshitting please. It's stated that the Jedi defeated all Sith by the time of Kun, yes. The fight between Thon and the female Sith happened before that at an unknown time. And because all Sith were genocided you came up two weaks ago with Nadd being trained by another Sith Lord - not Sadow, right ? If that is true there obviously were other Sith existing. And the live on Ambria was destroyed and Ambria belonged to the Ancient Sith Empire. So what ? All dark side knowledge used there = ancient Sith knowledge and the fact that the female Siths action destroyed all live on the planet turning it into a nice wasteland (as we see in the comics) still remains.



Yup. Bane's own power which was already focused through a ritual prepared before deforested Ruusan. Great. Nihilus own power turned Katarr into a desert planet and killed millions of force users including hundrets or thousands of trained Jedi.



That was brought up several times and Anderson stated himself that he used the ship in one action and his own power in another situation due to the fact that the comics contradict each other. Not that it even matters because Sadow's ship is far beyond everything in terms of force based technology.



THE SITH COWED THEM BEFORE WITH THEIR FORCE POWERS, THEIR LIGHTSABERS AND THEIR TECHNOLOGY, IDIOT ! TWO DIFFERENT EVENTS. 1) Dark Jedi arriving and Sith getting cowed b) Dark Jedi killing ruler and be placed above the former Sith gods.

What "rule" are you talking about. Obviously they didn't even try to take over the Sith by violence acts...



You ignored that all other sources of Sith knowledge are useless if the holocron contained everything as you want it. We saw that several Dark Lords obviously left their own unique holocrons which actually leads to the inconvenient (for you) idea that some of the knowledge they individually archieved / invented was completely lost.



How many force users have you seen fight without using the force ? How many individuals have you seen to be mentioned as "gods" among a species of force users ? Not to mention that the Sith only advantage above the Rakatan was there Dark Side knowledge.

And please: It's still nothing compareable to the Ewoks fighting the stormtroopers on Endor.

It's unclear if the statement is if-then, or if killing the Sith King was the cowing...it was probably a combo of both, we should compromise and quit arguing that.

Dude, I'm referring to another point in the comic...albeit, now that I read it, it could be Naga's thoughts on how the Sith blood was watered down given his elitism.

By who, Kreia? Ragnos might be a half-breed, but I don't see the logical basis of that considering by Ragnos's time, there wouldn't be anyone to crossbreed with, unless half-breeds stuck to half-breeds for a long time. Even those who still bore 'true Jedi blood' were Sith...naga himself was a crossbreed and had one of the purest lineages in the empire but he is noticeably Sith.

The date for Ambria's destruction is 4002 BBY, by this time, by NADD'S time, the Sith species and Empire was gone from the galaxy. Abel's article confirmed this. And yes, this is now a continuity error explained by the Jedi being wrong and Nadd finding Adas's holocron on Arshas Ree...Abel retconned this and fixed the error.

Once more: bane's force pulse wiped out Ruusan in the ritual, assuming the female Sith Lord still even exists, nothing's saying she didn't do the same in a ritual with her followers...and Bane's own power was sufficient to wipe out Ruusan's surface and he'd intended to destroy the Jedi.

I forget, where'd Anderson say anything? It's said in other sources that Sadow used sith technology and 'Sith power' where in others, the electrical weapon and since we see Alema Keto use the ship in a very similar manner,,,


No need for insults, Nai...you're assuming the Sith had them cowed BEFORE they killed the Sith King when the article is ambiguous either way. If they had them cowed, why trap and kill the king? It was the death of the Jen'Ari that convinced the Sith the Jedi were Gods, why exactly is killing the king not what the article was referring to when it said the Jen'Jidai cowed them as the one sentence follows the other?

Where was this 'unique' knowledge in other holocrons exactly? Given the lack of Sith holocrons as a whole, and that Adas's holocron was the most precious relic to the Sith, containing...over a hundred thousand years of history, culture and power...Where exactly are these ;unqiue' holocrons? I have the feeling Adas's holocron was a bit better than whatever Odan got...or the wall stacked full of forgotten Sith holocrons, or the numerous Sith holocrons Volfe Karkko and Nikkos Tyris used...

How many force users fought without the Force? Well, Flint, Luke at a few points, Lumiya, Carnor Jax, Jeng Droga, Kyle Katarn, Azrakel..Carnor especially and he was a Sith Lord

And once more: There's nothing saying that the battles between the rakata and the Sith involved force power or the Sith knowledge of the Dark Side exceeded the Rakata/...we just know there were some vicious, bloody battles led by Adas using his axe, where the Rakata force was massacred and Adas died.

Hey sorry to interrupt but what is the source for all of this info on Thon.

Mom, Dad, stop fighting! You're ruining my birthday party!!!


Can we please just get back to talking about Revan and Sidious, not ancient Sith? Please!

i dont know it could go either way. i havent really seen wat revan can do however i heard he was 1 of of the most powerful sith lords during kotor. im leaning towards revan.

And Sidious was one of the most powerful Sith period.

Revan would definately win
Palpatine is old n would have been killed by Mace Windu if Anakin hadnt cut off his hand

Or maybe he would have killed Mace if Anakin wasn't coming......

Originally posted by kamikz
Or maybe he would have killed Mace if Anakin wasn't coming......

Yeah. somebody missed how when Mace could barely deflect Sidious' lightning, Sidious pretended to be weak and then yelled "Unlimited power!" and fried the Hell out of Mace...
Mace would have been overwhelmed long before Sidious became too weak to continue zapping the fcuk out of him.

Yes, we even see, right before Sidious stops, that Mace drops one of his hands from the lightsaber (he is hit by lightning). With only one hand he would have lost all balance in holding the lightsaber and would have twice as hard to deflect it...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It's unclear if the statement is if-then, or if killing the Sith King was the cowing...it was probably a combo of both, we should compromise and quit arguing that.

Dude. When the sentece says that the Sith were cowed by the Dark Jedi's force powers, technology and lightsaber than exactly this was the case. They rated them as "godlike" and when the Sith ruler (godlike) was killed by the Dark Jedi the Sith thought that the Dark Jedi must be even more powerful than their old gods.



You simply refuse the easiest explanations. Obviously there is the theory that the more Jedi blood somebody has the more powerful he must be, correct ? Now two little facts:

a) Such theories or ideologies don't come from nowhere.
b) Ragnos obviously was more powerful than all other Sith Lords.

Now think for yourself. If the theory that "more Jedi blood = better force user" came up when the Jedi landed on the planet they would have tried to keep their blood "pure" - meaning: Have children with the other Jedi instead of interbreding with the Sith. Combined with the mentioned ability to prolong their natural lifetime there might very well have been people with 100 % "pure" Jedi blood in Ragnos time or right before it.
Now Sadow has one of the "strongest" bloodlines in the Empire but Ragnos was still more powerful. And since they both stick to the "the more Jedi blood the better" idea, Ragnos must have possessed more Jedi blood than all others including Sadow. And since the fact that he was a "half-blood" seems to be unusual it's very well possibly that he had a mother / father with 100 % Jedi blood.

I might remember you that one single ship filled with Jedi was the basis for Haruun Kals entire population and we saw that most if not all Koruunai are force sensitives to a certain extend.



Irrelevant missdirections. It doesn't matter if the "Witch" on Ambria belonged to the Sith species or the former Sith Empire. Fact is she used Sith teachings to do what she did.



This is simply dumb, Lightsnake. It's nothing said about any "followers" of the female Sith Lord on Ambria and much less there isn't any hint of a "ritual" existing. Thon simply visited the planet, they fought and the Sith destroyed all live on the planet except Thon and some Dark Side creatures (and possibly herself) with said attack. Bane's force pulse was still a ritual. And read the comics again please...Bane wanted to destroy the Jedi with a force storm using the combined power of all Sith being at Ruusan.



And again: Wrong. The weapon of the ship requires physical contact to the crystaline structure which seems to be the weapon control, as we see when Aleema is using it. In the beginning of DLotS you can see that Sadow is raising both hands and then simply forms them to fists - destroying the ships following him. He obviously didn't use the weapon.
Aside of this the effect is totally different. Sadow is creating some solar flares at one point and he's causing a chain reaction inside the star when using the weapon while Aleema pulled the core of the star of and threw it at the Jedi forces attacking her, causing a supernova in the end.



They needed the king dead for two reasons:

a) They were put on the same level as the king himself. To take the Sith over they needed to be above him.

b) It's much easier to get rid of the "political" enemy by deception than through direct confrontation as Sidious has perfectly shown us in all instances of the PT.



Wow...first there is a "lack" of Sith holocrons and then there are "numerous" Sith holocrons ? How do you want to say anything about their "quality" if you don't know what they contained ?

In times of the Sith War the only known Sith holocron was the one Odan-Urr kept. This holocron contained historical information dating back to 100,000 BBY. Then we have Tulak Hords holocron possibly containing his unique lightsaber form which made him the "lightsaber god". We have Darth Andeddus holocron that still was on Korriban in the PT era. We have Atris collecting dozens of Sith holocrons. We have those that were stored inside the Jedi temple on Coruscant (possibly identical with those Atris collected ?) and of course we have multiple holocrons in the Sith academy on Korriban in the KotoR games as well.

And now it's getting really funny. Adas lived around 28,000 BBY correct ? So how can a holocron he created contain history dating back 100,000 years ? Either that stuff was installed by the Rakatan (and even they had no history dating back those far) or we would have rather inaccurate statements about the Sith history. I mean - those people were primitives. What knowledge could they had have about a time period more than 70,000 years in the past. Some informations about force powers ? Very unlikely.

Then there is the little fact that at least some Sith Lords created their own holocrons to store some unique knowledge in them - stuff that was invented by them. And those seem to have been lost in rather huge numbers. Considering that one of this holocrons was the entire base of the knowledge the NSE (+what they found on Korriban which was plundered several times before) it seems that those other holocrons still contained some nice amount of knowledge. Enough to figure out something like the thought bomb or force storms.

Sorry to say that - but somehow Adas holocron looks like a "cultural artifact" or a myth than a real source of outstanding Sith knowledge in terms of force powers, Sith magic or Sith alchemy.



And another stupid statement: We know already that the Rakatan's "Art of War" was heavily based upon force use as almost all their technology was force based. We also know that the final collapse of the Infinite Empire happened in 25,200 BBY. The fight against the Sith happened right after the construction of the Star Forge when the Empire was basically at it's high point.
Now we still have a species of force user which number is stated to have been 10 billion and one trillion slaves spread over 500 planets.
As we know the Sith couldn't have been able to overcome the Rakatan with superior technology or firepower and it's pretty save to assume that they weren't able to outnumber them. Aside of this guerilla warfare against force sensitives is pretty useless. So...what other chance did the Sith have ? Somehow only superior force powers and possibly superior physical strength come to my mind. And given the fact that this was a fight between two force sensitive species it's almost unlikely that no force powers were used there - and the Sith possibly had some nice advantage there with their Sith magic that was almost entirely focussed on destruction (at least as we've seen it being used so far) while the Rakatan blended it with their technology.

Okay, unless you're going to talk about the subject, I think everyone would appreciate if you didn't comment, thanks.

The commentary says "And here Palpatine tries to destroy Mace with his powers."

You can take that as you will, but I think it's pretty darn clear. I once held that Lucas was referring to Palpatine's mental domination of Anakin as his "powers". That would also work, but I quickly dismissed it as being too deep for Lucas.

Revan would TOOL Palpatine and show him the power of a REAL SITHLORD.

Darth Revan would PWN Sidious/Yoda together with ease.

Redeemed Revan would destroy the whole entire Jedi council including Windu and Yoda with laughable ease.

um, no. What exactly has darth revan done (canonically, get it through your thick skull, canonically!) that puts him ahead of sidious/yoda?

Don't bother.

As per usual, I think like many high-end Sith, Revan is strong enough to put up a good fight, and even be a legitimate danger, but Palpatine has the edge.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
um, no. What exactly has darth revan done (canonically, get it through your thick skull, canonically!) that puts him ahead of sidious/yoda?

SERIOUSLY?. Revan has defeated THOUSANDS of Jedi and Sith, and defeated Malak who was amped by a whole race of force sensitives and several Jedi WITH EASE. Sidious got his smacked down by Mace Windu and a injured half dead half human cyborg. Revan would solo Windu, Yoda, and Sidious together COMBINED with ease.

Revan has Tulak Hords holocron and has been training with it for hundreds of years, you know Tulak Hord the GREATEST DUELIST IN STARWARS?.

That alone should be enough to tell you Revan slaughters Sidious.

God you are ignorant, aren't you! Revan has not CANONICALLY defeated thousands of jedi and sith, Malak was amped by a whole race of force sensitives, WTF? Being amped by the star forge doesn't mean being amped by the whole rakatan race, you dumbass. Actually, Drew Karpyshyn (the creator of revan/malak) has said malak gave revan a hard time. Mace windu is a master lightsaber duelist, and was being super-amped by vaapad, did you even read the book? My god, what a bias KOTOR Fanboy. Sidious has been stated by the CREATOR OF RAGNOS HIMSELF to be superior to the ancient sith. could you please listen to reason, just this once?

Tulak hord isnt the greatest lightsaber duelist in star wars, Luke is. I love how you take Kreia's word, which most members on this forum as a JOKE, seriously.

I think he's just trolling, lol.

Originally posted by The Merchant
I think he's just trolling, lol.

Obviously.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Tulak hord isnt the greatest lightsaber duelist in star wars, Luke is. I love how you take Kreia's word, which most members on this forum as a JOKE, seriously.

Tulak Hord IS the greatest Lightsaber duelist. Period. That's a fact. TULAK CONQUERED ARMIES OF JEDI, HIS JEDI KILL COUNT WAS OVER 1,000,000 SIDIOUS GOT HIS ASS B-E-A-T BY A FUNNY ASS WEAK BLACK JEDI.

"If we were to face one of the great Ancient Sith masters in combat, we would know we were children playing with toys".

Sidious is a child playing with a toy compared to Tulak.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
God you are ignorant, aren't you!

THE ONLY ONE THAT IS IGNORANT IS YOU!.

(:


he defeated armies of Jedi/Sith to get to Malak. Thousands of Sith and Jedi fell to his blade.



Yes he was. And Revan STILL WOOPED HIS SHIT!. REVAN>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SIDIOUS, WINDU, DOOKU, AND YODA PERIOD!.



YOU ARE BIASED AND A LIAR AND MAKING STUFF UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. MALAK GOT HIS ASS WOOPED BY REVAN LAST TIME I CHECKED MALAK HAD A METAL JAW BECAUSE OF REVAN, YOU LIAR!.SIDIOUS IS AND NEVER WILL BE EVEN CLOSE, EQUAL, OR SUPERIOR TO THE ANCIENT SITH!. NAGA SADOW WOULD KILL SIDIOUS WITH A SINGLE SLASH OF HIS BLADE SO WOULD FREEDON NADD. THESE ARE FACTS.

YOU HAVE CONTRADICTED YOURSELF YOU SIDIOUS FANBOY!. YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ACCEPTING FACTS....EVERYTHING I HAVE STATED IS A PURE FACT. STOP ARGUING WITH CANON!.

Palpatine WTFPWNS Darth Revan.

Palpatine>Revan (Novel)>Revan Redeemed>Darth Revan :/

Again, video game mechanics are not canon, only cutscenes are. And yes, these REAL LIFE PEOPLE have made these statements. Actually, you know what, try any other forum, and they'll tell you the same thing we are

Originally posted by Ragnosfan1998
SERIOUSLY?. Revan has defeated THOUSANDS of Jedi and Sith, and defeated Malak who was amped by a whole race of force sensitives and several Jedi WITH EASE. Sidious got his smacked down by Mace Windu and a injured half dead half human cyborg. Revan would solo Windu, Yoda, and Sidious together COMBINED with ease.

Dumbass, it's been stated Revan did not easily defeat Malak and that it was a long arduous battle. Those people you mentioned are amongst the strongest in the mythos. And Windu is debatable, but Yoda and Sidious would pimp smack Revan and pretty much anyone from the TOR era.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Dumbass, it's been stated Revan did not easily defeat Malak and that it was a long arduous battle. Those people you mentioned are amongst the strongest in the mythos. And Windu is debatable, but Yoda and Sidious would pimp smack Revan and pretty much anyone from the TOR era.

YOU ARE IGNORANT AND A LIAR! (:

Ragnosfan1998 You are a retard and a troll. Stop arguing against canon. Palpatine IS THE MOST POWERFUL SITHLORD EVER PERIOD!.

http://i.imgur.com/QJCAnTI.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/9oDNHub.jpg
The Chancellor can move control Sith Spirits.

Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
Palpatine IS THE MOST POWERFUL SITHLORD EVER PERIOD!.
This needs to be reaffirmed, period.

Also, this does not means that Palpatine cannot be beaten.

In-fact, their is realistic possibility of Revan to undermine Palpatine with one of his abilities: Revan can unleash a Thought Bomb on Palpatine, should he get sufficient opportunity. Yes, Thought Bomb can be unleashed independently without the need of ritual.

Palpatine would just forcibly move Vitiate's Spirit and just place him inside that same crystal. There would be no essence transfer after that.

Not sure what Vitiate can do vs a Sith Spirit if he did destroy his opponent's body.
Palpatine has answers for both planes of existence.

Not against vitiate.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This needs to be reaffirmed, period.

Also, this does not means that Palpatine cannot be beaten.

In-fact, their is realistic possibility of Revan to undermine Palpatine with one of his abilities: Revan can unleash a Thought Bomb on Palpatine, should he get sufficient opportunity. Yes, Thought Bomb can be unleashed independently without the need of ritual.

That can be turned against you, LeGenD, and your love of lord vitiate.

http://i.imgur.com/Gazucmo.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/zxoZoNb.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/iXuCqqT.jpg

These were executed effortlessly.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
That can be turned against you, LeGenD, and your love of lord vitiate.
Huh? I like Revan more than Vitiate.

Vitiate is possibly unmatched in Force mastery aspects in the whole mythos or rivalled only by select few entities in this regard. Sidious (DE) can legitimately stalemate Vitiate in a contest of Force abilities (Member pencilcrayon have a point about Sidious having an answer for both planes of existence; same is true for Vitiate as well) but this doesn't precludes the possibility of Sidious (DE) loosing to Vitiate in direct combat situation or getting undermined by the telepathic abilities of the latter.

Didint Revan beat 6Dark Jedi in KOTOR?. And fought Dark Jedi to reach Malak?.

Does Revan's Mastery of both light and dark side of the force give him an advantage in this fight against sidious?

Meh, not really. Sidious has also studied various aspects of the light side

Srry bout double post. But yeah, Revan, especially this incarnation, doesn't stand much of a chance against palpatine, if that's what ur asking

Revan Reborn stands a chance against any version of Sidious except for DE.

Not too sure. sidious (let's just say ROTS) outclasses Revan in lightsaber combat, and I think he slightly edges the force. Revan probably has a good chance of blocking palpatine's lightning though, and palpatine would have to resort to telekenesis if anything, a field in which Revan is also good at, though palpatine is slightly more impressive.

"Choke: A telekinetic grip, which when centered on an enemy's neck can pinch off airflow and snap vertebrae. This requires more concentration than the Push, as well as a free hand to form the control fist. The neck is an easy target because of its soft vulnerability, but strong users of the Choke can crush an entire body, including armor."

"A true master of this art can burst a walker's fuel tank, or buckle the hull of a star cruiser." - Book of Sith ( It's written in red text by Palpatine. )

Bane's entries are from page 65-96

Seriously, how did this last so long?

Sidious in a stomp.

^ Answer: posters like LeGenD and mstanford.

Oh look, my ***** is still mentioning my name.

Couldnt revan just kill sidious by reflecting his lightning back at him, or by using a thought bomb against sidious?

Revan can't reflect Sidious's lightning, and he can't think up a thought bomb. Other ideas?

He probably can reflect it actually.

Thought Bomb is dumb shit though. Firstly he can't do it. If it was that easy he would have used it against Vitiate. And its a ritual that PoD shows takes time to perform. Not usable in combat. Secondly, Bane could resist the Thought Bomb made up of hundreds of Sith Lords, you think Sidious is going to go down from one made from a single Jedi? Thirdly, it would kill Revan to use it, so good job there Revan.

So im thinking revan could reflect/redirect the lightning which counters one of sidious greatest assets, then he could use the dark and light side powers to empower himsekf to fight sidious in a saber duel?

That would be my plan, just let light and dark flow throgh reven in unison in order to reflect/nullify dark side powers used kn hin, and then use the light side to constantly regenerate himself so no fatigue?

I just stating what he generally did against vitae.

Palpatine's lightning would not easily be re-directed, first of all. Secondly, even if he did block the lightning, what else does he truly have?

Originally posted by Board Walker
So im thinking revan could reflect/redirect the lightning which counters one of sidious greatest assets, then he could use the dark and light side powers to empower himsekf to fight sidious in a saber duel?

That would be my plan, just let light and dark flow throgh reven in unison in order to reflect/nullify dark side powers used kn hin, and then use the light side to constantly regenerate himself so no fatigue?

I just stating what he generally did against vitae.

Your main failing here is that Revan still failed to defeat Vitiate, and Sidious is even more powerful than him.

Yeah, and Revan would not stand up to Sidious very long (if at all) in a lightsaber duel, so he'd have to resort to force abilities. But Sidious has him beat there too.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Palpatine's lightning would not easily be re-directed, first of all. Secondly, even if he did block the lightning, what else does he truly have?

He does have his Light/Dark blast.

True, and that may catch sidious off-guard. But how often can he utilize such an attack? He never tries the attack on the sith strike team...

I think revena did pretty well against vitae, if he wasnt betrayed by his own ally who knows how the fight would of went...


All im saying is due to revans ability to allow kight and dark flow through him in unison, he is able to nullify/redirect dark side offense powers back at the caster.

He also is able to use the light side to physically regenerate hinself, even when his face melted he regenerated it back to normal.

don't think Rots sidious is more powerful than vitiate

Don't you love it when your opponent makes you look so much better because of his own stupidity? Thank you Sidious

Vitiate's supposed ability to destroy planets by himself is to be taken with a grain of salt. Secondly, if Meetra didn't save Revan (where she actually could have killed the Emperor himself), he would have died. he put up a decent fight against the Emperor, but I don't see how he'd put up a better one against palpatine. also, there's no documentation of Revan ever using the Thought bomb on his own, so we cant assume he can use it, same as the thing about vitiate destroying planets by himself.

It took Revan to channel equal parts light and dark just to hold off the emperor temporarily. This isn't DE Sidious, this is ROTS Sidious as far as I know, so it's going to be any harder for Revan.

Yeah, vitiate + nexus = RotS sidious, but Revan didn't fare too well against vitiate so...

Vitiate+Nexus=RotS Sidious? How did you come up with that equation?

what has vitiate done off-nexus to legitimately put him above RotS sidious, in a combat situation? Because the only one I can think of is his charged FLS to overpower the jedi strike team, a team holding only 2 fighters worthy of note.

If you're going to use the excuse that Vitiate is always in a nexus (nevermind that he pretty much is one), then I'll counter with the fact that Sidious is also a living breathing nexus and therefore, hasn't done much without it.

Um, no? That would both be their individual power. But most, if not all, of Sidious's combat feats are done off-planetary nexuses, while vitiate's most impressive one (defeating Revan, being considered a match for revan/meetra/scourge trio) is done on a nexus.

Vitiates best feat is easily defeating a team of the 5 most powerful Jedi in the galaxy at the same time imo. Which wasn't on a nexus.

ah yes, the FLS. Would such an attack come to bear upon Palpatine? I mean he does have mastery over force maelstrom, and (as far as I know) is much faster than anyone on the hoT strike team. Plus I think He would be able to keep Vitiate from using such an attack, since it takes precious seconds to charge.