Count Dooku runs the Gauntlet!

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Council#13
Okay, this is a first. Well, no one's done a Dooku, so this can be a first of many! eek! So, with the power infested in me, I name this the first Dooku Gauntlet thread and give the power to any to do one after this!!!

Dooku gets fully refreshed after each battle! Go! (this is Dooku in his prime)

1. 10 Clone troopers
2. Jango Fett
3. Cin Drallig
4. Ki-Adi-Mundi
5. Qui-Gon (prime)
6. Mace Windu
7. ROTS Sidious

Count Kent
He makes it to 6. Nice thread btw, though I swear one has already been done.

He breezes through 1 and 2, confidently beats Drallig and tools Mundi. He should be able to beat Jinn with considerable ease as well, however Mace easily beats him.

You have to take into consideration that his style uses minimal energy, so fatigue shouldn't be an issue.

I would have also done a different order. From 3 - 7, I would have done Mundi, Jinn, Drallig, Sidous and then Windu.

overlord
All the Dooku stuff these days makes me sick. But I'd also say 6.

Blue_Hefner
I could see him making it past Mace but he gets owned at Sidious.

General Kon-El
Mace has a chance of defeating Dooku. But Sidious definitely pawn him.

Pyro Tyrannus
Dooku makes it all the way. He is a far better duellist than any one of those characters.

Razielim
He either makes it all the way or falls at 7, depending on the environment.

And I wouldn't say Dooku is far better than Mace and Sidious in dueling.

Lightsnake
He;s not, he and Mace are direct equals and he wouldn't get past Mace

Pyro Tyrannus
Originally posted by Lightsnake
He;s not, he and Mace are direct equals and he wouldn't get past Mace

He has beaten Windu before. He will surely do it again.

Lightsnake
Which is why he ran away from Mace on Boz Pity, right? And was that before or after Mace became much stronger on Haruun Kal that he beat him? When he's exhausted from the rest

overlord
Pyro Tyrannus turns out to be a fanboy even though he hates all those other fanboys, NO WAI!! Yeah, sure Dooku could defeat Mace Windu and then his master Sidious.. In your dreams.

Razielim
Run away? Mace was already thrown off a cliff when he left.

Now, Mace didn't become stronger after the events of Haruun Kal... his mind was a bit clearer and he was less afraid to channel the darkness. This obviously lead to increased efficiency in Vaapad, but is it enough to beat Dooku? And keep in mind, Obsession took place after Mace's situation on Haruun Kal.

But yeah, Dooku is fully restored after each match... No tiredness.

Lightsnake
The point is, he's not holding back in Vaapad anymore there. And he and Dooku clashed for a bit, then Dooku's guards blindsided Mace and Dooku left. If Dooku is able to beat Mace so easily...and Mace is a Jedi Dooku's wanted dead for a bit...

Razielim
He probably thought a fight between them would go either way. I personally think so as well, but I'd give to Dooku 51-49...

Pyro Tyrannus
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Which is why he ran away from Mace on Boz Pity, right? And was that before or after Mace became much stronger on Haruun Kal that he beat him? When he's exhausted from the rest

Got a link to where that is stated? An actual site that is canon.

Originally posted by overlord
Pyro Tyrannus turns out to be a fanboy even though he hates all those other fanboys, NO WAI!! Yeah, sure Dooku could defeat Mace Windu and then his master Sidious.. In your dreams.

F*ck off. You bring nothing to the table as far as arguments go. All you do is go around thinking your funny. . .

Razielim
It was kinda implied all throughout Shatterpoint. Well, at least, that was my interpretation of what he was saying.

Or are you referring to the events at Boz Pity? I will get the scans up soon...

here they are:

http://swcomics.dreamhoster.org/Obsession/obsession_5_14.jpg
http://swcomics.dreamhoster.org/Obsession/obsession_5_15.jpg

Mace was already falling when Dooku left.

Pyro Tyrannus
Would Shatterpoint be canon either? How can you base a movie character off a book? If it was writen by GL ok then. . .

Razielim
Yep, it's a clone wars novel. But yeah, this is the EU section. It counts.

Lightsnake
As canon as those comics.

And Dooku distracted Mace in order to escape, plain and simple

Pyro Tyrannus
Originally posted by Razielim
It was kinda implied all throughout Shatterpoint. Well, at least, that was my interpretation of what he was saying.

Or are you referring to the events at Boz Pity? I will get the scans up soon...

here they are:

http://swcomics.dreamhoster.org/Obsession/obsession_5_14.jpg
http://swcomics.dreamhoster.org/Obsession/obsession_5_15.jpg

Mace was already falling when Dooku left.

As usuall Dooku was toying with his opponent. This says nothing for Mace...

Lightsnake
which is why Dooku was forced to defend himself and couldn't kill Mace, right.

Pyro Tyrannus
Originally posted by Lightsnake
which is why Dooku was forced to defend himself and couldn't kill Mace, right.

If you pay attention you can maybe read that the droid is telling him that Grievous was found. Dooku had better things to do than toy with the almighty Windu and his vapaad. . .

Lightsnake
Yes, because a pawn is so much more important than killing one of the few Jedi who poses a threat to the Sith and you've wanted dead for some time. Right.

BlaxicanTroller
Fa shizzle my mutha-f*ckin nizzle.

Rampant ox
I agree with Pyro in every post he has made thus far.

He easily gets to 6. He beats Mace after the fight of his life. This is because he has more experience, more force abilities, a more effective style and that it has been proven he has beaten Mace before. So I say he makes it past Mace.

Im gonna get crucified for saying this but Dooku would beat Sids depending on the setting. If it is a small or enclosed space, Dooku has a massive advantage. Sids wont be able to use his force powers (and it is his knowledge of the force which makes him so strong) and he wont be able to utilise his saber style. Ataru involves alot of large, unpredictable swings which need a lot of room to use. So if it is a small space Dooku wins, if not Sids wins.

Rampant ox
Originally posted by overlord
All the Dooku stuff these days makes me sick.

Nobody gives a shit. If you dont like it f**k off.

Lightsnake
AHAHAHAHA! Rampant, your fanboyism is ridiculous. Dooku was terrified of Sidious for a reason

Rampant ox
Who the hell said he was terrified of Sids?!?!

Lightsnake
Dark Rendevous? Palpatine is outright far stronger than Dooku in the force, by TPM he was the strongest Sith Bane's order would produce...and that includes Darth Sidious.

And Mace is very capable of defeating Dooku. they're equals exactly

Hokage Yoda
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Which is why he ran away from Mace on Boz Pity, right? And was that before or after Mace became much stronger on Haruun Kal that he beat him? When he's exhausted from the rest

Sorry to be a newb but what book I'm Curious smile

Borbarad
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yes, because a pawn is so much more important than killing one of the few Jedi who poses a threat to the Sith and you've wanted dead for some time. Right.

You mean the pawn that is still needed to command the CIS armies around and it took Dooku quite some time to train ? And I doubt Dooku wanted to kill Mace personally (same way Mace wanted to kill him in AotC) - why not just stab him when he was busy with the droids holding him from behind ? That would have been pretty easy work...

Lightsnake
Hell if I know, Dooku's just on record saying he wants Mace dead and Mace was one of the only hindrances to a new Sith order. the droids could've pulled Mace off, too.

I don't think saving Grievous when the droids had him was higher priority than finishing Mace, one of the top threats to a new Sith order

Hokage Yoda
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yes, because a pawn is so much more important than killing one of the few Jedi who poses a threat to the Sith and you've wanted dead for some time. Right.

Every time Dooku Faces Mace their is no fear in his eyes

DePWNZOR
Did Grievous even need to be saved? All the magnaguard says is "we've located General Grievous. He lives" Who said Grievous was in any danger?

Anyway, Mace>Dooku. He is physically stronger, has a far more powerful style, and many unique gifts.

Hokage Yoda
Originally posted by DePWNZOR
Did Grievous even need to be saved? All the magnaguard says is "we've located General Grievous. He lives" Who said Grievous was in any danger?

Anyway, Mace>Dooku. He is physically stronger, has a far more powerful style, and many unique gifts.

proof

DePWNZOR
Physically Stronger....That is obvious. Dooku is an 80 year old geiser, while Mace is a 6 ft 2 Black Man. A more powerful style :Vaapad was a state of being, not just a style. It defeated DARTH SIDIOUS's Juyo, which Dooku couldn't do. Unique Gifts : One Word messedhatterpoint.

Hokage Yoda
Originally posted by DePWNZOR
Physically Stronger....That is obvious. Dooku is an 80 year old geiser, while Mace is a 6 ft 2 Black Man. A more powerful style :Vaapad was a state of being, not just a style. It defeated DARTH SIDIOUS's Juyo, which Dooku couldn't do. Unique Gifts : One Word messedhatterpoint.


Yoda's old as he would pwn Mace and It is constantly Inferred dooku and Mace are EQUALS and you are acting like a fanboy. Also Yoda and Sids are equal add Luminara and the trio wins big grin

DePWNZOR
Did you watch ROTS? In this Setting SIDIOUS>Yoda. Mace>Dooku, because he is 1.Just as Strong with the Force ( we see him stopping avalanches)2.Unique Gifts (shatterpoint, which is extremely useful)3.Physically Stronger (he can last longer in a fight, we see how tired Dooku gets when he is fighting Anakin)

Captain REX
Mace is not superior to Dooku. In previous fights, Dooku has been victorious. Read Windu's or Dooku's profile on the Official Site.

1. So they're equal. Good for them.
2. Shatterpoint is useful, yes, but it doesn't make him more skilled.
3. Dooku used Makashi, which uses as little energy as possible. Mace would get tired before Dooku would...

DePWNZOR
Dooku is 80 years old...Mace is a 6ft 2 Angry Black Man...Who gets tired first?

Captain REX
Age is not really a matter in Star Wars, when it comes to Jedi and Sith. For example, Kenobi in the OT was old, but he was merely considered out of practice due to hiding on Tatooine for twenty years. Otherwise, his age would not have affected him.

Yoda is a better example, being 900-years-old. He did not tire out during the fight with Dooku and Sidious thanks to the Force. He was EXTREMELY tired AFTER he had stopped focusing and concentrating. Plus, he uses the Form that requires the most energy, Ataru.

I still think Dooku would win. He's won over Windu before.

DePWNZOR
13 Years ago...during which time Windu mastered Vaapad.

Captain REX
Windu had mastered Vaapad, and Dooku had mastered Makashi before Windu had invented Vaapad...

Makashi is a lightsaber Form dedicated to dueling, I must remind you. Vaapad was more of a 'Take everything down' style that could be used against mundanes and lightsabers alike.

Count Kent
Captain rex, dude, take into account that when they fought, it was a sparring match, Dooku was probably quite close to his peak while Mace would have been far from his and Windu likely hadn't mastered Vaapad.

Count Kent
Originally posted by Captain REX
Windu had mastered Vaapad, and Dooku had mastered Makashi before Windu had invented Vaapad...

Makashi is a lightsaber Form dedicated to dueling, I must remind you. Vaapad was more of a 'Take everything down' style that could be used against mundanes and lightsabers alike.

His form didn't help him against yoda, did it? Cin Drallig had also mastered Makashi; didn't help against Anakin, did it?

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Council#13
Okay, this is a first. Well, no one's done a Dooku, so this can be a first of many! eek! So, with the power infested in me, I name this the first Dooku Gauntlet thread and give the power to any to do one after this!!!

Dooku gets fully refreshed after each battle! Go! (this is Dooku in his prime)

1. 10 Clone troopers
2. Jango Fett
3. Cin Drallig
4. Ki-Adi-Mundi
5. Qui-Gon (prime)
6. Mace Windu
7. ROTS Sidious
Define 'in his prime'...
To me, that means Dooku at this age?
http://starwars.wikia.com/images/0/00/Youngdooku.jpg
To be honest, I'd say that the clone troopers would prove more of a challenge, as Makashi is not a form geared towards blaster deflection. However, Qui-Gon was able to block blaster bolts easily, and he studied under Dooku, so it would have to be a skill Dooku posessed. I can't see any of the others providing any real challenge, including Palpatine, as his saber technique was totally predictable and readable. It was his knowledge in the Force that made Palpatine the Sith Master, not saber technique (also, Mace bested Palpatine in a saber duel, and Dooku has been shown to be able to duel Mace without difficulty)

Rampant ox
Originally posted by Captain REX
Mace is not superior to Dooku. In previous fights, Dooku has been victorious. Read Windu's or Dooku's profile on the Official Site.

1. So they're equal. Good for them.
2. Shatterpoint is useful, yes, but it doesn't make him more skilled.
3. Dooku used Makashi, which uses as little energy as possible. Mace would get tired before Dooku would...

Amen. If Rex says it, it must be true. Rex knows all...

Escape81
Count Dooku quickly and efficiently makes it past 1 - 6.

Now:

- The details of the Mace vs. Dooku duel when Dooku is a Jedi is, to my knowledge, inconclusive. I'm not familiar with any source of information that indicated "Dooku handled Mace" easily at all.

- Mace and Dooku both had room for improvement, especially Mace. Dooku saw a lot of frontline action in the Clone Wars, but Mace either had the same or even moreso.

If Dooku can beat Mace, it would be one hell of a fight. Dooku wouldn't be toying with him at all.

Furthermore, if Dooku could WTFpwn Mace or defeat him, why did he not do it at Boz Pity, instead of having General Grievous's bodyguards distract him so he could depart? It makes me think that Dooku either knew he'd get beaten or there was a strong chance of it. Kind've like how Palpatine attempted to flee his office when Yoda confronted him.

Secondly:

- Dooku did fear Sidious. I suggest, Rampant, that you read Dark Rendezvous. I believe I still have it with me, and I could give you exact quotes.

- Dooku was the apprentice. Not the master. Furthermore, he didn't ever attempt to betray or kill his master like other Sith Lords have done.

- Assajj Ventress offered to help Dooku kill Sidious. He still declined.

Sidious > Dooku.

If he makes it past Windu, he dies at Sidious.

DE Luke
Originally posted by Escape81
Count Dooku quickly and efficiently makes it past 1 - 6.

Now:

- The details of the Mace vs. Dooku duel when Dooku is a Jedi is, to my knowledge, inconclusive. I'm not familiar with any source of information that indicated "Dooku handled Mace" easily at all.

- Mace and Dooku both had room for improvement, especially Mace. Dooku saw a lot of frontline action in the Clone Wars, but Mace either had the same or even moreso.

If Dooku can beat Mace, it would be one hell of a fight. Dooku wouldn't be toying with him at all.

Furthermore, if Dooku could WTFpwn Mace or defeat him, why did he not do it at Boz Pity, instead of having General Grievous's bodyguards distract him so he could depart? It makes me think that Dooku either knew he'd get beaten or there was a strong chance of it. Kind've like how Palpatine attempted to flee his office when Yoda confronted him.

Secondly:

- Dooku did fear Sidious. I suggest, Rampant, that you read Dark Rendezvous. I believe I still have it with me, and I could give you exact quotes.

- Dooku was the apprentice. Not the master. Furthermore, he didn't ever attempt to betray or kill his master like other Sith Lords have done.

- Assajj Ventress offered to help Dooku kill Sidious. He still declined.

Sidious > Dooku.

If he makes it past Windu, he dies at Sidious. Exactly.Very well answered,Escape. wink

Rampant ox
Count Dooku quickly and efficiently makes it past 1 - 6.

Agreed



- The details of the Mace vs. Dooku duel when Dooku is a Jedi is, to my knowledge, inconclusive. I'm not familiar with any source of information that indicated "Dooku handled Mace" easily at all.

Of course Dooku couldnt handle Mace with ease. They are on par and it would be one hell of a match for both of them.

- Mace and Dooku both had room for improvement, especially Mace. Dooku saw a lot of frontline action in the Clone Wars, but Mace either had the same or even moreso.

Meaning what? They were both highly ranked masters and both had little room for improvement. Action on the battlefield wouldnt have made them better - just kept them from getting rusty.

If Dooku can beat Mace, it would be one hell of a fight. Dooku wouldn't be toying with him at all.

I agree. Dooku sure as hell wouldnt be cocky or arrogant in this fight. As soon as one makes a mistake the other will die.

Furthermore, if Dooku could WTFpwn Mace or defeat him, why did he not do it at Boz Pity, instead of having General Grievous's bodyguards distract him so he could depart? It makes me think that Dooku either knew he'd get beaten or there was a strong chance of it. Kind've like how Palpatine attempted to flee his office when Yoda confronted him.

Its because Dooku/Sids are scared of death. Its not that they cant win, more that they dont want to risk themselves.



- Dooku did fear Sidious. I suggest, Rampant, that you read Dark Rendezvous. I believe I still have it with me, and I could give you exact quotes.

Quotes would be helpful. But its not like the Count was shitting himself whenever he was near Sids.

- Dooku was the apprentice. Not the master. Furthermore, he didn't ever attempt to betray or kill his master like other Sith Lords have done.

Meaning what exactly. Sids had far more force knowledge which kept him the master. Saber skills I would put Dooku above Sidious. And because Dooku didnt kill Sids means nothing. Only that he was a loyal apprentice.


Sidious > Dooku.

If he makes it past Windu, he dies at Sidious.

Sids probably is better. However if the environment was in the Counts favor Dooku would have a very good chance at victory.

Escape81
Glad you realize it.



You're quite fond of showing that Windu is younger and possesses less experience. That means that Windu's room for improvement is larger than Dooku's own.



Poor logic.

You're telling me that being on the battlefield (which gives them effective excuses to actively use their Force and saber abilities) would not give them any improvement?

You may wish to rethink that.



Dooku risked death when he ever encountered a Clone Trooper. Yoda risked death when he ever encountered a Clone Trooper or a Battle droid. So did Mace. But that didn't stop them, did it?

Palpatine risked death when he hurled himself at three very capable Jedi Masters in his office.

Risk is nothing. Dooku and Sidious fear how big the risk was. In either case, the risk of their death was EXTREMELY high. Easily fifty percent.



I'll get the book ASAP (I think it's on my shelf)

Actually, it said that Dooku's "youth and energy" was stripped from him. Essentially, Sidious was the only thing making him feel his age.



Meaning that all Sith (save for Darth Maul - who was raised to be without ambition) wish to eventually kill their master, and assume the mantle themselves.



It does mean something. It means that Dooku was so frightened of Sidious that he didn't attempt to kill him.



All you're doing is attempting to put Dooku in a hypothetical situation where he might win. Yes, the chance is there. Hell, in the proper environment, Grievous or Obi-Wan could kill Sidious - I'm sure.

Escape81
'Only in this situation, stooped before the image of his Master, did he feel his years. Even via hologram , the flickering figure of Darth Sidious, hideous in blue and shadows, seemed to strip his false youth away, leaving his bones brittle, his joints worn thin and knotted with tension .'

'"Ridiculous?" his Master had said, in that soft, terrible voice of his. "I hardly think so." And then, his voice like honeyed poison, "A good student always loves his teacher." There was always a risk , talking with Sidious. Sometimes the conversation would go badly, and Dooku would fail to please somehow. It was a terrible thing, failing to please his master .'

(I'm finding more)

Rampant ox
You're quite fond of showing that Windu is younger and possesses less experience. That means that Windu's room for improvement is larger than Dooku's own.

No. Everyone has their limits on how powerful they can become. They are on par. Mace reached his potential far quicker than Dooku reached his. However by ROTS they had basically become as strong as they were going to get and this strength was equal. Because Mace is younger means little, only less force control. Dooku's age means more practice - and more practice means more control. So Mace will never have the same force control as Dooku because Dooku will always be older and have practiced more. This is why i say that Maces youth will be his downfall against the Count. Because he will never have the same force control.



Poor logic.

You're telling me that being on the battlefield (which gives them effective excuses to actively use their Force and saber abilities) would not give them any improvement?

You may wish to rethink that.

Like I said before they had both reached their potential. They werent going to get any stronger.



Dooku risked death when he ever encountered a Clone Trooper. Yoda risked death when he ever encountered a Clone Trooper or a Battle droid. So did Mace. But that didn't stop them, did it?


Palpatine risked death when he hurled himself at three very capable Jedi Masters in his office.

Risk is nothing. Dooku and Sidious fear how big the risk was. In either case, the risk of their death was EXTREMELY high. Easily fifty percent.

Your twisting the point. Humans go outside, even though there is a risk of getting hit by a car. Dooku fights clone troopers, even though there is a risk of getting shot. These are very small risks and are irrelevant. However fighting another jedi/sith is completely different. You know there is a chance of being killed. Sith fear death and would often avoid confrontation that could lead to death. For example Sids vs Yoda. Sids tried to run but in the fight he still won.



Meaning that all Sith (save for Darth Maul - who was raised to be without ambition) wish to eventually kill their master, and assume the mantle themselves.

It does mean something. It means that Dooku was so frightened of Sidious that he didn't attempt to kill him.

Hmmm. Dooku was once a jedi. He had a senseof honour and pride that most sith lacked. I doubt that he didnt kill Sids because of fear, more that he was loyal.



All you're doing is attempting to put Dooku in a hypothetical situation where he might win. Yes, the chance is there. Hell, in the proper environment, Grievous or Obi-Wan could kill Sidious - I'm sure.

No. I doubt that they would beat Sids even if they had the advantage. In an enclosed space Dooku wins. An open space Sids wins.

Escape81
No, it's not that simple. I am actually in the process of watching AotC again (because it is my personal favorite of the PT and I haven't watched it in a while) - so I can't respond to each of your individual points.

It's not that simple for you to assume that Dooku could defeat Sidious in an enclosed place. The chances are higher, but it isn't guarenteed either way. So don't pass off your opinion as FACT.

Pyro Tyrannus
Originally posted by DE Luke
Exactly.Very well answered,Escape. wink

Whats the matter Luke? Can't speak for yourself?

Escape81
Originally posted by Pyro Tyrannus
Whats the matter Luke? Can't speak for yourself?

No, but it's possible that he simply agrees with what I say, and to repeat it would be redundant.

Pyro Tyrannus
Originally posted by Escape81
No, but it's possible that he simply agrees with what I say, and to repeat it would be redundant.

Sorry Escape, but that guy goes around saying people can't argue when all he does is agree with anyone who makes the same point he is trying to make. . .

DE Luke
Originally posted by Pyro Tyrannus
Sorry Escape, but that guy goes around saying people can't argue when all he does is agree with anyone who makes the same point he is trying to make. . . Atleast I'm not the one who true to pass his opinion off as 'proof'.And I agreed with Escape the same way he explained before,repeating it would be useless and a waste of time because it would be the EXACT same thing.Your the last person who should discriminate considering you don't even take Lucas' word for it and just replace his word with your own overbiased opinion.You have no right to incriminate who's who considering that you think your own opinion contradict's the very man who wrote the movie's word,hypocrite.

Escape81
Yup. Youtube is a wonderful website. It allows me to watch the Dooku and Yoda fight scene and the Sidious and Yoda fight scene, without switching DVDs and all that jazz.

I'll be comparing the two fights in the next post - to prove why Sidious would defeat Dooku. Then, my behind's hitting my nice bed. Hopefully.

Escape81
Count Dooku was able to stalemate Yoda in a fight scene that lasted approximately 2 minutes and 46 seconds. Palpatine was able to stalemate Yoda in a fight scene that lasted 5 minutes and 40 seconds (not including the events that occured when the Anakin vs. Obi-Wan scenes popped up in between Yoda vs. Sidious).

-------

The Force fight between Count Dooku and Yoda wasn't really much of a fight, as it was obvious that Yoda's control of the Force still, by a considerable amount, exceeded his former padawan's.

Dooku hurled two generators at Yoda, and each was repelled. Dooku then tried to crush Yoda with some debris from the cavern's roof. Yoda caught them and brushed them to the side.

Dooku then attempted to then electrocute Yoda. Yoda caught the blast with one hand and pushed it back. Dooku then attempted to electrocute Yoda a second time, which Yoda caught and then crushed in his bare hand.

Note that the only instance during the Force duel where Yoda actually attempted to harm Dooku, was with the first initial attempt to disable him with Force lightning, which Dooku quickly reverted to the roof.

---------

The saber fight between Count Dooku and Yoda is actually roughly 40 seconds in duration. Dooku is constantly on the defensive, Yoda pressing the attack. I actually don't recall in one instance where Dooku had the offensive.

So, essentially, in less than a minute in a sheer saber-to-saber battle, Dooku is ready to call it quits, and thus endangers the life of Obi-Wan and Anakin in order to escape.

--------

Verdict: Sorry, but Dooku seems to be a firm notch or two beneath Yoda in lightsaber fighting and definately in a Force contest.

Pyro Tyrannus
Originally posted by DE Luke
Atleast I'm not the one who true to pass his opinion off as 'proof'.And I agreed with Escape the same way he explained before,repeating it would be useless and a waste of time because it would be the EXACT same thing.Your the last person who should discriminate considering you don't even take Lucas' word for it and just replace his word with your own overbiased opinion.You have no right to incriminate who's who considering that you think your own opinion contradict's the very man who wrote the movie's word,hypocrite.

Pull your head out of your a$$. I take GL's word as proof. When did I never? Your drawing at straws. . .when did I ever say my word was law? Never. All I do is present is sound evidence and arguements and you b!tch that I am surely wrong. . .

DE Luke
Originally posted by Pyro Tyrannus
Pull your head out of your a$$. I take GL's word as proof. When did I never? Your drawing at straws. . . You're still saying that Dooku woud still beat Anakin in the Dooku's Skill thread,and last time I checked I provided 3 sources,one from Lucas' own mouth,the Script and the Novel,and the fanboys,including you, in that thread still say that he would be able to beat Anakin.Looks like you don't,and it looks like I'm not the one who needs to get his head out of his ass,it's you.

Pyro Tyrannus
Originally posted by DE Luke
You're still saying that Dooku woud still beat Anakin in the Dooku's Skill thread,and last time I checked I provided 3 sources,one from Lucas' own mouth,the Script and the Novel,and the fanboys,including you, in that thread still say that he would be able to beat Anakin.Looks like you don't,and it looks like I'm not the one who needs to get his head out of his ass,it's you.

I have also presented quotes of the actual script and makers words. Dooku is better. Maybe not more powerful, but better. Like I have said before don't point fingers when you already have a character up in your a$$ like your favorite vibrator. . .

DE Luke
Originally posted by Pyro Tyrannus
I have also presented quotes of the actual script and makers words. Dooku is better. Maybe not more powerful, but better. Like I have said before don't point fingers when you already have a character up in your a$$ like your favorite vibrator. . . Yeah,Dooku's better alright,that's why he has no hands and no head.Have nothing better to do than jerk off to Dooku?Again,you didn't provide ANYTHING from the script in that thread.Wherein I told you to look at the novel and look on the DVD for commentary from Lucas' confirming my point,I even provided you with a source to the script.

Pyro Tyrannus
Originally posted by DE Luke
Yeah,Dooku's better alright,that's why he has no hands and no head.Have nothing better to do than jerk off to Dooku?

No. I have your mom. . .

DE Luke
Originally posted by Pyro Tyrannus
No. I have your mom. . . I don't have a mom,the only mom I know is yours.You still owe me a Happy Fathers Day.

Escape81
The Force fight:

After disabling Palpatine's elite, Yoda banters with the Dark Lord for a few moments - before Palpatine decides to let Yoda "experience the full power of the Dark Side".

Palpatine then raises his hands and fires off a burst of Force lightning at Yoda, who raises his hands - but is overpowered and flung towards the opposite wall.

After a few moments, Yoda rises and - after a little exchange - Force pushes Palpatine back across the room, where the Dark Lord tips over his desk (spread-eagled. messed). Palpatine, realizing that his "little green friend" really isn't the type to be screwed with, attempts to flee. But Yoda is quicker to the door, and blocks him.

After another exchange, Yoda draws his saber - as does Palpatine. Yoda rushes over Palpatine, attempting to strike him over the head. Palpatine blocks, and Yoda flips off of the Chancellor's podium to land in front of Palpatine.

They attack each other, and Yoda pushes Palpatine's saber back. Palpatine cackles and then slashes at Yoda.

------

Palpatine's saber fight with Yoda is also roughly 40 seconds long (not including shown before they got on the podium and the footage shown where Palpatine "loses his saber"wink.

Palpatine maintains the center "block" on the podium (the Chancellor's one) while Yoda attempts to overwhelm Palpatine. It should be noted that, though Palpatine is remaining relatively stationary - he is meeting Yoda attack for attack. Meaning that they are both moving their sabers at the same time. So it isn't Yoda attacking and Palpatine simply blocking.

Yoda then forces (no pun intended) Palpatine to Mas Amedda's block (down beside Palpatine's) while he takes the Chancellor's block, for a few seconds. Then, Palpatine forces Yoda back to Sly Moore's spot, retaking the Chancellor's podium. The fight ends when we see Yoda continuously flipping around, attempting to breach Palpatine's defenses.

--------

Palpatine then tries to hurl three or more massive repulsor pods at Yoda. Yoda dodges them all, but the final one knocks him onto another pod. Palpatine rips a final pod from its mooring and chucks it at Yoda, who catches it, spins it, and sends it back. Palpatine cackles - and then just stares at it - before moving away at the last moment to drop down to the pod below.

Yoda follows, and is disarmed by a blast of Force lightning. Yoda is then assaulted by Palpatine - who closes in on Yoda. Palpatine is the one who is creating the energy, whereas Yoda is simply holding it at bay - thus, Palpatine is able to advance on Yoda. Yoda is having a hell of a time (unlike with Dooku) holding Palpatine's lightning back. He's leaning backwards, grimacing as Palpatine cackles. Finally, Yoda growls and glares at Palpatine - who looks surprised.

Now, carefully.

Yoda is NOT the one responsible for the explosion of energies. If one looks carefully, one notices that the ball of Palpatine's Force lightning actually NEVER touches him. Essentially, Palpatine's energy is going to explode.

See, the energy ball of collected energy starts out right at Yoda's finger tips. Palpatine is generating the lightning, and the ball is forming just a little away from Yoda's finger tips (who is using the Force to hold it back). All Yoda does is push the ball firmly in between him and Palpatine. The energy ball never touches Palpatine - and it shows when the energy repells them both. Yoda is flung off the pod down to the floor, and Palpatine rights himself.

--------

Verdict: Yoda and Palpatine are virtual equals. They truly stalemated one another in a battle to the absolute death.

Escape81
Originally posted by DE Luke
I don't have a mom,the only mom I know is yours.You still owe me a Happy Fathers Day.

Dude, just stop. Not only do you risk getting banned, but you're totally spamming the thread (which is causing my arguments to get separated).

Win the debate with logic. Not insults.

DE Luke
You're right,Escape.I apologize.

Escape81
Final verdict:
---------------------

Yoda and Palpatine truly are virtual equals. Yoda and Dooku, on the other hand, are not. As shown in Dark Rendezvous, Yoda and Dooku confront one another one Vjun - a world firmly steeped in the Dark Side.

Yoda, not only at this disadvantage, is also distracted by Dooku (who pulls the same tactic he did in AotC), who tossed a maid out of a window. Yoda not only manages to evade Dooku despite being on a planet deep in the Dark Side - but he also manages to catch this woman and deposit her safely to the ground simultaneously.

He then engages Dooku in a battle, and wins, forcing Dooku to flee Vjun.

Yoda is a firm superior to Dooku, which makes Sidious a firm superior to him as well.

-----------------

If Dooku makes it past six, he will die when he faces Palpatine.

Pyro Tyrannus
Originally posted by DE Luke
I don't have a mom,the only mom I know is yours.You still owe me a Happy Fathers Day.

Nonsense. Go f*ck yourself to DE Luke Fanboyus Maximus.

Pyro Tyrannus
Originally posted by Escape81
Dude, just stop. Not only do you risk getting banned, but you're totally spamming the thread (which is causing my arguments to get separated).

Win the debate with logic. Not insults.

I'll stop if he would step off. . .

DE Luke
I just did.

And good work ,Escape.Though I haven't read Dark Rendevous,I agree with your better judgment.

Escape81
Originally posted by Pyro Tyrannus
I'll stop if he would step off. . .

He said he's done.

This is the problem. You're both at fault.

A lot of it happens to be over your personal preferences. Don't tell me that you Pyro Tyrannus is NOT someone who easily prefers Dooku to any other Star Wars character. Or Rampant Ox, the guy who strongly implies that he is in love with Christopher Lee.

I prefer Yoda, Palpatine, and Exar Kun - as well as General Grievous. But, I won't hesitate to tell you when they'd lose, when they'd get owned.

You, on the other hand, do.

You, who says that Dooku was toying with Mace on Boz Pity. That is poor, twisted logic. Dooku and Windu were fighting, and Dooku's Magnaguards blindsided Mace - allowing Dooku to "make his departure".

AFTER that happens, he is told that Grievous was alive.

No. That proves it. Dooku could never toy with Mace. EVER. A fight between them could go either way.

DE Luke
Again,agreed.Except if there was duel say, Ludo Kressh and Naga Sadow vs DE Luke Skywalker,I would say the duo.I don't believe the character I like to be infallible.He has his weakness',just like every person does.

And if you read Jedi: Dooku,Dooku does state Mace to be a very big threat to the Confederacy.So if Dooku admits that Mace is a serious threat,then don't you think that Dooku would take Mace seriously in a duel?

number 72!
he goes down on 5 or 6

Razielim
Meh, Palpatine vs Yoda always felt like the ultimate evil vs the ultimate good type of thing. Neither could really overwhelm the other. It's symbolic, IMO.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by DE Luke
You're still saying that Dooku woud still beat Anakin in the Dooku's Skill thread,and last time I checked I provided 3 sources,one from Lucas' own mouth,the Script and the Novel,and the fanboys,including you, in that thread still say that he would be able to beat Anakin.
There is nothing. Repeat. NOTHING in Lucas' commentary saying Dooku was fighting all out against Anakin, only that the actor Christopher Lee tried his hardest to perform the scene, but ultimately had to be substituted with a stunt double. That is Lucas' word.
As for the Novel and the script, the movie is still higher canon than either of those, particularly the script, because a script is just a series of guidelines and instructions for the actors to use. The way they perform and interperet that script, (aka the movie) is the highest level of canon.

Originally posted by DE Luke
Yeah,Dooku's better alright,that's why he has no hands and no head.
Just incase you didn't read my comment in the Dooku Skill thread, here it is again: (pasted as I can't be bothered to re-write it)
Originally posted by Darth Vious
There was no mention on the DVD of Dooku fighting to his best, only that the actor portraying him was trying his best, and again, Dooku thought Anakin would play a role in the Sith ranks, so, as with Assaj, he was not trying to kill, he was just providing what the Jedi would consider a Trial. As I said before, Anakin did not beat Dooku in a blade on blade duel, he physically overpowered the older man (which is hardly difficult given their respective ages) by grabbing his arms, which immobilized his lightsaber, and then cut his hands off, something Dooku had no way of preventing, so it was a totally chickenshit move on Anakin's part. Dooku on the other hand, had previously cut Anakin's arm off while in the middle of a blade to blade confrontation, and did not have to resort to physical means, so was clearly a superior swordsman.


Originally posted by DE Luke
Wherein I told you to look at the novel and look on the DVD for commentary from Lucas' confirming my point,I even provided you with a source to the script.
See my above comment regarding the movie superceeding script and novel, and Lucas' actual comment.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Rampant ox
You're quite fond of showing that Windu is younger and possesses less experience. That means that Windu's room for improvement is larger than Dooku's own.

No. Everyone has their limits on how powerful they can become. They are on par. Mace reached his potential far quicker than Dooku reached his. However by ROTS they had basically become as strong as they were going to get and this strength was equal. Because Mace is younger means little, only less force control. Dooku's age means more practice - and more practice means more control. So Mace will never have the same force control as Dooku because Dooku will always be older and have practiced more. This is why i say that Maces youth will be his downfall against the Count. Because he will never have the same force control.
That means nothing. Far younger force users have defeated far older ones. Dooku is unable to channel his darkness like Mace does, moot points



Poor logic.

You're telling me that being on the battlefield (which gives them effective excuses to actively use their Force and saber abilities) would not give them any improvement?

You may wish to rethink that.

Like I said before they had both reached their potential. They werent going to get any stronger.
There's always time to get stronger



Dooku risked death when he ever encountered a Clone Trooper. Yoda risked death when he ever encountered a Clone Trooper or a Battle droid. So did Mace. But that didn't stop them, did it?


Palpatine risked death when he hurled himself at three very capable Jedi Masters in his office.

Risk is nothing. Dooku and Sidious fear how big the risk was. In either case, the risk of their death was EXTREMELY high. Easily fifty percent.

Your twisting the point. Humans go outside, even though there is a risk of getting hit by a car. Dooku fights clone troopers, even though there is a risk of getting shot. These are very small risks and are irrelevant. However fighting another jedi/sith is completely different. You know there is a chance of being killed. Sith fear death and would often avoid confrontation that could lead to death. For example Sids vs Yoda. Sids tried to run but in the fight he still won.
A straight up battle is different than an infintesimal chance. Dooku has been shown to take the initiative many times.



Meaning that all Sith (save for Darth Maul - who was raised to be without ambition) wish to eventually kill their master, and assume the mantle themselves.

It does mean something. It means that Dooku was so frightened of Sidious that he didn't attempt to kill him.

Hmmm. Dooku was once a jedi. He had a senseof honour and pride that most sith lacked. I doubt that he didnt kill Sids because of fear, more that he was loyal.
He wasn't. He certainly plotted to overthrow his master, remember AOTC? "Join me, Obi-wan!" And many Dooku was so 'honorable', he created a pawn to butcher and genocide untold civilians to take the heat off himself in the war. and many Sith were once Jedi: Kaan, Ruin, Malak, Exar Kun, the original Dark Lords, Xendor, Anakin...no, Dooku was just as much a monster as the others.



All you're doing is attempting to put Dooku in a hypothetical situation where he might win. Yes, the chance is there. Hell, in the proper environment, Grievous or Obi-Wan could kill Sidious - I'm sure.

No. I doubt that they would beat Sids even if they had the advantage. In an enclosed space Dooku wins. An open space Sids wins.
Or in an enclosed space Sidious just lets the force fly and Dooku Die

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Lightsnake
He wasn't. He certainly plotted to overthrow his master, remember AOTC? "Join me, Obi-wan!" And many Dooku was so 'honorable', he created a pawn to butcher and genocide untold civilians to take the heat off himself in the war. and many Sith were once Jedi: Kaan, Ruin, Malak, Exar Kun, the original Dark Lords, Xendor, Anakin...no, Dooku was just as much a monster as the others.
I think (taking Clone Wars into account) that Dooku's comment to Obi-Wan could be viewed thusly: He had a need to remain in a position of teacher and mentor (as he did to Assaj and Grievous(Who clearly idolized Dooku as a teacher)) That trait could thereby apply to his offer to Obi-Wan to join him so together they could (in the Count's own words) destroy the Sith. I think Dooku's sense of honor, was more a case of aristocratic snobbery. He viewed himself as being above lesser beings, and that made certain things acceptable for him, but not for others. (in the novelization of RotS, he expressed distaste at Anakin's use of an artificial limb, claiming that 'a gentleman would have learned to duel one handed). As for loyalty, Vader was hardly loyal to the Emperor either. He said to both Padme and Luke that they could rule the Galaxy together, turned on Padme in an instant when he thought she had brought Obi-Wan to Mustafar, and also turned against Obi-Wan for the same reason. I doubt Anakin even knew the meaning of the word loyalty, let alone it's application.

Lightsnake
True, but Palpatine expected that sort of thing from Anakin and by ROTJ, Vader'd abandoned his amibitions, he was broken upon Palpatine's will and seeming omniscience. Dooku on the other hand...he was trying to recruit Obi-wan. Join me, destroy Sidious with me...but turn him to the darkside in the process

Pyro Tyrannus
Originally posted by Escape81
He said he's done.

This is the problem. You're both at fault.

A lot of it happens to be over your personal preferences. Don't tell me that you Pyro Tyrannus is NOT someone who easily prefers Dooku to any other Star Wars character. Or Rampant Ox, the guy who strongly implies that he is in love with Christopher Lee.

I prefer Yoda, Palpatine, and Exar Kun - as well as General Grievous. But, I won't hesitate to tell you when they'd lose, when they'd get owned.

You, on the other hand, do.

You, who says that Dooku was toying with Mace on Boz Pity. That is poor, twisted logic. Dooku and Windu were fighting, and Dooku's Magnaguards blindsided Mace - allowing Dooku to "make his departure".

AFTER that happens, he is told that Grievous was alive.

No. That proves it. Dooku could never toy with Mace. EVER. A fight between them could go either way.

Read the page dude. You can see he his playing a game with Windu. . .

Lightsnake
Fraid I can't...y'know, considering he actually STRIKES at Mace

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Lightsnake
True, but Palpatine expected that sort of thing from Anakin and by ROTJ, Vader'd abandoned his amibitions, he was broken upon Palpatine's will and seeming omniscience. Dooku on the other hand...he was trying to recruit Obi-wan. Join me, destroy Sidious with me...but turn him to the darkside in the process
That's very true, although I wouldn't say Palpatine expected it from Anakin, as he seemed quite surprized when he found himself falling down the reactor shaft wink

Lightsnake
Well, that's rather different as Vader realized Palpatine WASN'T omniscient and Palpatine didn't understand the bond between father and son

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Well, that's rather different as Vader realized Palpatine WASN'T omniscient and Palpatine didn't understand the bond between father and son
I think Dooku also knew Palpatine wasn't omniscient or he would not have made the offer to Obi-Wan. I think Dooku is the one person who is truly honest in his dealings with people (regardless of the nature of his intention).

Rampant ox
The Force fight between Count Dooku and Yoda wasn't really much of a fight, as it was obvious that Yoda's control of the Force still, by a considerable amount, exceeded his former padawan's.

Hardly.

Dooku hurled two generators at Yoda, and each was repelled. Dooku then tried to crush Yoda with some debris from the cavern's roof. Yoda caught them and brushed them to the side.

Dooku then attempted to then electrocute Yoda. Yoda caught the blast with one hand and pushed it back. Dooku then attempted to electrocute Yoda a second time, which Yoda caught and then crushed in his bare hand.

I really dont understand how Yoda could be deemed as better in the force fight. I mean he just stood there. Dooku stood there but he threw generators, blasted lightning and collapsed the roof. This shows more force power than Yoda does. However Yoda did manage to counter Dooku's attacks which means the y stalemated.

Note - that the only instance during the Force duel where Yoda actually attempted to harm Dooku, was with the first initial attempt to disable him with Force lightning, which Dooku quickly reverted to the roof.-

Exactly. Yoda's only attack was quickly countered by Dooku. Doesnt make Yoda look very spectacular to me.


The saber fight between Count Dooku and Yoda is actually roughly 40 seconds in duration. Dooku is constantly on the defensive, Yoda pressing the attack. I actually don't recall in one instance where Dooku had the offensive.

How can you tell Dooku was on the defence? Was it because Yoda was jumping around? Because if it is that is a pretty crap argument because Yoda is always jumping around. And I do recall the Count do some fancy swirls. You can hardly conclude that Yoda had the advantage when they met blow for blow.

So, essentially, in less than a minute in a sheer saber-to-saber battle, Dooku is ready to call it quits, and thus endangers the life of Obi-Wan and Anakin in order to escape.

Well he had just taken out Kenobi and Skywalker. And then Yoda comes in and wants a fight. Hell, Dooku wasnt expecting to fight any of them. He needed to get to Coruscant.


Verdict: Sorry, but Dooku seems to be a firm notch or two beneath Yoda in lightsaber fighting and definately in a Force contest.

I agree that Dooku isnt as good as Yoda. However in the fight in AOTC they looked incredibly even.

Pyro Tyrannus
To show that my preference to Dooku does have bounds I must say that he is beneath Yoda in power. Not by a lot but not by a little either. . .

Escape81
Coming from you, this means a lot . . . Sorry, your opinion doesn't way much with me because of your overwhelming bias.



Um . . . no. Dooku tossed everything he had at Yoda, and Yoda repelled it all. Yoda only attempted to attack Dooku once during the Force fight, but every other time, he simply tossed the debris away and said, "much to learn you still have".

Dooku is NOT Yoda's equal in Force powers. He is a notch or two beneath him.




LMAO!

It was Dooku's attack that Yoda simply pushed back at him. And if ya wanna get technical, ALL of Dooku's attacks were EASILY.

Doesn't make Dooku look very spectacular to me . . .



Yoda was always forcing Dooku back. He always had the advantage.



Is that right? Well, Dooku screwed around with Obi-Wan and Anakin - which in total - lasted far longer than the duel with Yoda. No. He stayed there to prove his superiority, and he did - to Obi-Wan and Anakin. But he failed to do so against Yoda.



1. Yoda repelled all of Dooku's attack, with ease.

2. Yoda forced Dooku on the defensive.

3. Yoda forced Dooku to flee Geonosis.

4. Dooku only escaped by endangering Obi-Wan and Anakin.

Sorry, Rampant. They are hardly even.

Escape81
He. DIES. At. 7.

He is not in his master's league when it comes to the Force, and I could make an argument that Palpatine is easily on par with Dooku in lightsaber ability.

Palpatine > Dooku.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Darth Vious
I think Dooku also knew Palpatine wasn't omniscient or he would not have made the offer to Obi-Wan. I think Dooku is the one person who is truly honest in his dealings with people (regardless of the nature of his intention).

Tell that to Jango and Nute Gunray...Dooku intended to remove the Seperatist council from power and give it to humans...he also elected to pin all the war crimes on Grievous

Pyro Tyrannus
Originally posted by Escape81
He. DIES. At. 7.

He is not in his master's league when it comes to the Force, and I could make an argument that Palpatine is easily on par with Dooku in lightsaber ability.

Palpatine > Dooku.

Well then lets see it. Can Palpatine's style which includes funny epressions and stiff movements defeat the ultimate lightsaber-to-lightsaber form?

Pyro Tyrannus
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Tell that to Jango and Nute Gunray...Dooku intended to remove the Seperatist council from power and give it to humans...he also elected to pin all the war crimes on Grievous

Jango, Grievous, and Gunray new the risk involved in dealing with a Sith Lord. . .

Escape81
Originally posted by Pyro Tyrannus
Well then lets see it. Can Palpatine's style which includes funny epressions and stiff movements defeat the ultimate lightsaber-to-lightsaber form?

Um . . . combined with his Force powers which are firmly above Dooku's own, yeah.

Escape81
Originally posted by Pyro Tyrannus
Jango, Grievous, and Gunray new the risk involved in dealing with a Sith Lord. . .

So did Dooku.

overlord
Tsk tsk tsk, Rampant Ox, Rampant Ox.. Dooku threw things to the ground by breaking them apart, Yoda catched them heavy objects. Yoda even catched a f*cking force lightning and just threw it back, sucker.
You fail miserably by trying to convince that Dooku's force powers were impressive.

Lightsnake
Give me a- Grievous expected the man who saved his life would backstab him? Nute Gunray knew the risks Dooku planned to betray him ALL ALONG?

And Palpatine's able to square off with Yoda in a saber duel, Dooku's defenses were battered to hell by Yoda. Oh, yeah...Anakin's wide swinging defeated the ultimate saber to saber form

Pyro Tyrannus
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Give me a- Grievous expected the man who saved his life would backstab him? Nute Gunray knew the risks Dooku planned to betray him ALL ALONG?

And Palpatine's able to square off with Yoda in a saber duel, Dooku's defenses were battered to hell by Yoda. Oh, yeah...Anakin's wide swinging defeated the ultimate saber to saber form

yoda and Dooku were going blow-for-blow. What wild swing? Makashi is the ultimate duelling form. Shien was created by Soresu masters who had emotional problems. . .

Lightsnake
Still: Shien beat Makashi. And no, Dooku was sorely defeated there...he ran away for a reason

Pyro Tyrannus
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Still: Shien beat Makashi. And no, Dooku was sorely defeated there...he ran away for a reason

Go to Dooku's skill thread if you want to see my argument. From SW.COM "Unable to find an advantage, Dooku distracted Master Yoda by dropping a cran on Skywalker and Kenobi." He wasn't getting owned. He couldn't find any other way to defeat Yoda at the time...

BlaxicanTroller
Yeah what do you think "Not being able to find a way to beat him" means? Dooku couldn't beat him. So he ran. hence, he was beaten.

Pyro Tyrannus
Originally posted by BlaxicanTroller
Yeah what do you think "Not being able to find a way to beat him" means? Dooku couldn't beat him. So he ran. hence, he was beaten.

Was Dooku disarmed or killed? No. He simply figured f*ck it, live to fight another day.

BlaxicanTroller
Getting disarmed, dismember isn't the only way for one to lose. Running, is also losing. Running because you know you can't win the fight is DEFINITELY running.

Escape81
Precisely the point.

Rampant Ox's logic is poor and simply worthless in this instance. This is one of the times where his favoritism for Dooku is becoming a hindrance to the debate at hand.

Dooku threw all he had at Yoda, who easily turned it aside. That isn't a stalemate. Yoda didn't try to attack him, save for once.

That'd be like some guy attempting to punch me three or four times, and me dodging them all. That doesn't make us equals.

Dooku is a notch or two beneath Yoda in the Force, as is Mace. Sidious is the only person in the PT who is equal to Yoda in the Force.

Yoda is also superior to Dooku in lightsaber ability, and I can argue that Palpatine would easily be able to fight with Dooku in a saber battle. He may not win, but his superior Force powers would be enough to give him a victory against his apprentice - the guy who wouldn't screw with him at all.

He dies at seven.

Rampant ox
Originally posted by overlord
Tsk tsk tsk, Rampant Ox, Rampant Ox.. Dooku threw things to the ground by breaking them apart, Yoda catched them heavy objects. Yoda even catched a f*cking force lightning and just threw it back, sucker.
You fail miserably by trying to convince that Dooku's force powers were impressive.

The only impressive thing Yoda did with the force was catch the Counts lightning. And when the Count had the lightning flung back at him he simply deflected it to the roof. Dooku also managed to rip those massive objects off the wall and throw them at Yoda. He then ripped the roof down on top of him. Yoda blocked all of this. This makes them equal, it hardly makes Yoda superior.

However when I argue this I am only looking at the AOTC battle. Yoda is better than the Count and would usually beat him in a fight. Im just saying that in AOTC they looked extremely even, with neither having an advantage.

Escape81
Erm . . . no. The impressive thing that he did was handle all of Dooku's attacks with unspeakable ease. Everything that Dooku threw, Yoda raised a hand and flung it away. All of the lightning that Dooku poured at his former master was either repelled or crushed in a little green fist.



Yoda reflected it. And, then Count Dooku quickly deflects it to the roof.



Rofl. Massive. He had a hell of a time ripping debris from the roof and generators from the wall, which - by the way - a single generator that he threw at Dooku was considerably smaller than a single repulsorpod that Sidious tossed by the handfuls (thus proving that Sidious is a bound or two above Dooku in the Force).



He turned all of the attacks away from him. He only attempted to attack Count Dooku once. My point is, Yoda only made an effort to harm Dooku a single time in the Force fight. THAT is what you call "toying" with an opponent.



No, it doesn't. Dooku had all of his attacks turned away from him. He fought with Yoda for 40 seconds in a lightsaber duel, was unable to find a single advantage - and was forced to flee in the wake of a superior opponent. Hell, if you'd like to get technical - he couldn't even break the saber lock with Yoda - nor could he fight him and escape. He had to put Obi-Wan and Anakin in danger to escape his "equal".

Basically, if we were going out of a scale of 1 - 10:

Yoda
-------
Force: 10
Saber: 10

Dooku
--------
Force: 8
Saber: 9

Yoda is firmly above Dooku in Force powers and is notably superior in sabers as well.

There's no way he could beat Yoda or Sidious in an all out fight.

Rampant ox
Erm . . . no. The impressive thing that he did was handle all of Dooku's attacks with unspeakable ease. Everything that Dooku threw, Yoda raised a hand and flung it away. All of the lightning that Dooku poured at his former master was either repelled or crushed in a little green fist.

Yes Yoda blocked the attacks with ease. But Dooku performed the attacks with ease as well. Neither could overcome the other. This is why Dooku offered a lightsaber duel. "I see this battle can not be decided by our knowledge of the force, but by our skills with a lightsaber".



Yoda reflected it. And, then Count Dooku quickly deflects it to the roof.

Nothing worth noting there except that they once again stalemated.



Rofl. Massive. He had a hell of a time ripping debris from the roof and generators from the wall, which - by the way - a single generator that he threw at Dooku was considerably smaller than a single repulsorpod that Sidious tossed by the handfuls (thus proving that Sidious is a bound or two above Dooku in the Force).

Dooku had little trouble moving the generators. And Yoda had little trouble blocking them. They once again stalemated.



He turned all of the attacks away from him. He only attempted to attack Count Dooku once. My point is, Yoda only made an effort to harm Dooku a single time in the Force fight. THAT is what you call "toying" with an opponent.

Could that be because Yoda has little offencive force powers. He could rip things off the wall but he knew the Count would just block them. And when he did attempt to attack with force lightning the Count easily deflected it. It is because Yoda is less arrogant in thinking he could overcome Dooku with the force. Not because he was toying with him.



No, it doesn't. Dooku had all of his attacks turned away from him.

So what? If I recall yoda had all his attacks turned away from him as well.

He fought with Yoda for 40 seconds in a lightsaber duel, was unable to find a single advantage - and was forced to flee in the wake of a superior opponent.

Yoda couldnt find an advantage either can I remind you. If he could the Count would be dead. Yes im not arguing that Yoda is superior, only not by as much as you think.

Hell, if you'd like to get technical - he couldn't even break the saber lock with Yoda

Yoda couldnt break it either.

nor could he fight him and escape. He had to put Obi-Wan and Anakin in danger to escape his "equal".


True. But how are you meant to escape someone who is flinging there saber at you. Two ways. beat them, which the Count couldnt do. Or distract them which the Count did rather easily.


Basically, if we were going out of a scale of 1 - 10:

Yoda
-------
Force: 10
Saber: 10

Dooku
--------
Force: 8
Saber: 9

Yoda is firmly above Dooku in Force powers and is notably superior in sabers as well.

There's no way he could beat Yoda or Sidious in an all out fight.

I agree with that but I would put Dooku's force powers on 9 as well. Dooku wouldnt beat yoda in a fight, however Yoda isnt very far in front of Dooku in terms of strength. And the Count might beat Sids 4/10 depending on the environment.

Lightsnake
Rampant have you read the book Dark Rendevous? Yoda manages to perform the feat again, while saving a woman Dooku tossed from a window, gently lowering her to the ground over stories and still manages to CRUSH Dooku in combat and send him packing

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Tell that to Jango and Nute Gunray
How did Dooku lie to Jango or Gunray? The person who betrayed Gunray was Palpatine, not the Count...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Dooku intended to remove the Seperatist council from power and give it to humans...he also elected to pin all the war crimes on Grievous
What's the source of that info?

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Escape81
Um . . . combined with his Force powers which are firmly above Dooku's own, yeah.
So why did his saber go flying out of a window?

Darth Vious
Originally posted by overlord
You fail miserably by trying to convince that Dooku's force powers were impressive.
Dooku's Force powers were nothing spectacular. His true skill was with a lightsaber.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Lightsnake
And Palpatine's able to square off with Yoda in a saber duel
So why did Palpatine try to flee rather than engage Yoda immediately? It wasn't until Yoda blocked his path and ignited his saber that Palpatine drew his own.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Dooku's defenses were battered to hell by Yoda.
In what way? I don't remember any of Yoda's strikes actually hitting Dooku. He might have proved a challenge for Dooku to defend against, but, he was still capable of doing so, which Yoda himself acknowledged.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Anakin's wide swinging defeated the ultimate saber to saber form
No they didn't. Anakin did not cut off Dooku's hands while they were duelling blade to blade. He only cut them off after he had physically grabbed Dooku's arms, immobilizing his lightsaber. Dooku cut off Anakin's arm while they were engaged in blade to blade combat.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Escape81
Erm . . . no. The impressive thing that he did was handle all of Dooku's attacks with unspeakable ease. Everything that Dooku threw, Yoda raised a hand and flung it away. All of the lightning that Dooku poured at his former master was either repelled or crushed in a little green fist.

Actually, there were some signs of exertion in Yoda when he was repelling the objects Dooku threw at him (and real struggle when Dooku tried to bring the other object down on Anakin and Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Escape81
Rofl. Massive. He had a hell of a time ripping debris from the roof and generators from the wall, which - by the way - a single generator that he threw at Dooku was considerably smaller than a single repulsorpod that Sidious tossed by the handfuls (thus proving that Sidious is a bound or two above Dooku in the Force).
The size of the objects moved is irrelevent. Yoda said as much to Luke in ESB before he raised the X-Wing from the swamp.

Originally posted by Escape81

He turned all of the attacks away from him. He only attempted to attack Count Dooku once. My point is, Yoda only made an effort to harm Dooku a single time in the Force fight. THAT is what you call "toying" with an opponent.
I'd call all his acrobatics attacking, and when he bounded around the hangar, he was clearly trying to avoid Dooku's blade...

Originally posted by Escape81

No, it doesn't. Dooku had all of his attacks turned away from him. He fought with Yoda for 40 seconds in a lightsaber duel, was unable to find a single advantage - and was forced to flee in the wake of a superior opponent. Hell, if you'd like to get technical - he couldn't even break the saber lock with Yoda - nor could he fight him and escape. He had to put Obi-Wan and Anakin in danger to escape his "equal".
In Clone Wars, Dooku advised Grievous that if the advantages were not all in his favor, then it was better to withdraw. Making a 'strategic retreat', is not quite the same as running away in fear, because it is a conscious decision and acknowledgement that not everything is as it should be. Isn't there an expression it's the poor student who fails to surpass their Master? I think that Dooku's retreat was as much plot necessity as anything else. As pointed out before, he hadn't expected to fight anyone, he was just trying to get to Coruscant, when the others turned up to stop him.

kamikz
Darth Vious, if the size is irrelivent, then how come Yoda is having more trouble lifting that big tube and the X-Wing, than lifting a rock. How come all the jedi couldn't lift as massive stuff as the likes of Luke and Yoda? Size does count, I think that was just a thing for Yoda to encourage Luke, just look at how surprised and fascinated Yoda is when Luke is pulling up the X-Wing at first...

Darth Vious
Originally posted by kamikz
Darth Vious, if the size is irrelivent, then how come Yoda is having more trouble lifting that big tube and the X-Wing, than lifting a rock.

Who knows...

Originally posted by kamikz
How come all the jedi couldn't lift as massive stuff as the likes of Luke and Yoda?
Not all the Jedi have the same skills, or equal skills in the same areas.

Originally posted by kamikz
Size does count, I think that was just a thing for Yoda to encourage Luke, just look at how surprised and fascinated Yoda is when Luke is pulling up the X-Wing at first...
I think Yoda was more encouraged that Luke was following his teachings and seemed to be succeeding. He clearly said "Size matters not" (I can't provide the full quote as I don't have ESB on DVD) but he clearly tells Luke that the size of the object doesn't make any difference. It is only different in his mind, and when Luke then gasps "I don't believe it!", Yoda replied: "That is why you failed..."

kamikz
Originally posted by Darth Vious
Who knows...


Not all the Jedi have the same skills, or equal skills in the same areas.


I think Yoda was more encouraged that Luke was following his teachings and seemed to be succeeding. He clearly said "Size matters not" (I can't provide the full quote as I don't have ESB on DVD) but he clearly tells Luke that the size of the object doesn't make any difference. It is only different in his mind, and when Luke then gasps "I don't believe it!", Yoda replied: "That is why you failed..."


That line is obviousley flawed. There is a difference. If there wasn't then every jedi should know it, and anyone should be able to do it, but apparently, not everyone, actually very few, can do it.
In the clone wars, there were two jedi who was fighting with alot of droids. Suddenly the roof fell apart and a huge rock fell above them. They both used the force against it (instead of dodging, apparently they belived they could) but they were to weak. Luckily they weren't crushed. Later Yoda came in and lifted the rocks....

Yoda is not always right, maybe he thought that way because he seems to be able to do it (he has the highest midichlorian count except for Anakin) and over 800 years of traning. It has been shown that only the strongest jedi can move most things with their mind.

If size did not matter then why can't ANY jedi move a planet? Why could not Yoda move the death star away from Yavin? Size does matter, the only thing you have against it is Yoda's line, which I still belive is to encourage Luke. He would teach Luke to belive in himself and that was a good way to show it, but any jedi cannot move anything....

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Darth Vious
How did Dooku lie to Jango or Gunray? The person who betrayed Gunray was Palpatine, not the Count...


What's the source of that info?

ROTS novelization, Grievous's entire purpose was for a scapegoat of the war's atrocities. And Dooku planned to remove the entire council from power and give their resources to human beings

Darth Vious
Originally posted by kamikz
That line is obviousley flawed.
Well, I'm sorry you feel that, but, it was a line in not only the original release of ESB, but also the re-mastered editions. Lucas was clearly happy with it, so I accept that as 100% canon accurate, and not open to interperetation.

Originally posted by kamikz
In the clone wars, there were two jedi who was fighting with alot of droids. Suddenly the roof fell apart and a huge rock fell above them. They both used the force against it (instead of dodging, apparently they belived they could) but they were to weak. Luckily they weren't crushed. Later Yoda came in and lifted the rocks....
It could have been that there were too many individual objects for them to keep track of, not the actual weight, but, either way, they did survive the rockfall by forming it into a kind of stone 'igloo'. It could also be that by allowing the rocks to cocoon them, the Jedi were in fact protecting themselves from the droids until help arrived.

Originally posted by kamikz
It has been shown that only the strongest jedi can move most things with their mind.
As I said before, not all Jedi have the same abilities. Some have skills in other areas to others.

Originally posted by kamikz
If size did not matter then why can't ANY jedi move a planet?
Same reason as above. Also, probably because no Jedi has tried to move a planet in the movies.

Originally posted by kamikz
Why could not Yoda move the death star away from Yavin?
Because he was nowhere near Yavin, but was living in seclusion.

Originally posted by kamikz
Size does matter, the only thing you have against it is Yoda's line, which I still belive is to encourage Luke.
I disagree. A teacher would not tell their student an incorrect technique just to encourage them to get a result, they would tell them the correct technique to begin with. As I said before, the line was in the movie, so is 100% canon and very specific, so not open to interperetation.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Lightsnake
ROTS novelization, Grievous's entire purpose was for a scapegoat of the war's atrocities. And Dooku planned to remove the entire council from power and give their resources to human beings
Fair enough, I haven't read the entire novel, just bits here and there.

kamikz
Originally posted by Darth Vious
Well, I'm sorry you feel that, but, it was a line in not only the original release of ESB, but also the re-mastered editions. Lucas was clearly happy with it, so I accept that as 100% canon accurate, and not open to interperetation.


It could have been that there were too many individual objects for them to keep track of, not the actual weight, but, either way, they did survive the rockfall by forming it into a kind of stone 'igloo'. It could also be that by allowing the rocks to cocoon them, the Jedi were in fact protecting themselves from the droids until help arrived.


As I said before, not all Jedi have the same abilities. Some have skills in other areas to others.


Same reason as above. Also, probably because no Jedi has tried to move a planet in the movies.


Because he was nowhere near Yavin, but was living in seclusion.


I disagree. A teacher would not tell their student an incorrect technique just to encourage them to get a result, they would tell them the correct technique to begin with. As I said before, the line was in the movie, so is 100% canon and very specific, so not open to interperetation.


So the weakest jedi in history could move a planet if he wanted to? I've seen multiple occasions where a jedi has been to weak to move something even though they wanted to...

Just because it was a line in the movies doesn't mean it's right, Yoda could have been wrong. Was Anakin better than Mace Windu in AOTC because he said so?

There were no droids left in the place, they were out in the snow, the temple was abandoned. And they didn't know that they were going to get help either. Thing is that it required Yoda to save them from the rock iglo, they could not get out of there anymore. They clearly try to lift the rock but can barley levitat it over themselfs together....

Tell me, why does Yoda seem to give it all to lift that tube in AOTC? Anakin didn't seem to have a hard time lifting a fruit from Padme's plate, but Yoda seems to be killing himself while lifting that tube. Are you saying that any jedi could have done that in Yoda's position?

With this logic you are basically saying that anything is possible with the force, no matter how weak you are. Then potential wouldn't matter at all.... If size didn't matter then how come people have a harder time lifting things that are mabey only 10-20 times the size of a rock, some can't even do it.


Yoda was giving Luke a lesson to never underestimate his own strenght and never underestimate others strenght. Yoda asked him if he judged Yoda by his size. Luke doubted that he could lift it, Yoda said that the size didn't matter. He didn't say "anything can be moved", he said that the size didn't matter, he could basically be meaning just the X-Wing.
It mustn't be true either. Luke doubted it much but Yoda convinced him to do it. Why must it be true just because Yoda said so? He could have told him exactly what he needed to hear, it must not be right or wrong.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by kamikz
So the weakest jedi in history could move a planet if he wanted to? I've seen multiple occasions where a jedi has been to weak to move something even though they wanted to...
Don't try creating a strawman rather than dealing with what I actually said.

Originally posted by kamikz
Just because it was a line in the movies doesn't mean it's right
?? Yes it does. If you refuse to accept that the movie is 100% accurate canon, then there is no point in even continuing the debate.

Originally posted by kamikz
Was Anakin better than Mace Windu in AOTC because he said so?
Once more, don't create a strawman rather than dealing with what I actually said.

kamikz
WTF. Try to get what I'm saying. You say that because it was a line in the movie it must be that way. I show you that just because someone said it in the movie doesn't mean it's canon. The movie itself might be reliable, but the persons in it must not always be right.... Answere that instead.

DiamondBullets
He'll die either at Qui-Gon or Mace.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by kamikz
WTF. Try to get what I'm saying. You say that because it was a line in the movie it must be that way. I show you that just because someone said it in the movie doesn't mean it's canon. The movie itself might be reliable, but the persons in it must not always be right.... Answere that instead.
??

Originally posted by kamikz
You say that because it was a line in the movie it must be that way.
Yes. It would not be in the movie if it was not correct.

Originally posted by kamikz
I show you that just because someone said it in the movie doesn't mean it's canon. The movie itself might be reliable, but the persons in it must not always be right.... Answere that instead.
Yes, it does. If it was not accurate, the line would not have been in the movie. Yoda was introduced in ESB as the 'all knowing Master' to teach Luke, therefore, Lucas would not have him saying things that were not correct. There is not a single line of Yoda's in any of the movies that is not correct to what he said or meant, even if it takes another 3 movies for the line to make perfect sense.

kamikz
...Yoda was wrong in ROTS.

- At an end your rule is, and not short enough it was.
And Yoda clearly underestimated Sidious to, another mistake from the "all knowing jedi master".

And still Lucas put Anakin's line there, was it wrong? Yes, of course it was. Was it still put there? Yes it was.

Tell me, why would Yoda have to use more of his force strenght to lift a pillar that is really big, and less when he is lifting a rock or something smaller? Tell me that instead, give me proof....

Darth Vious
Originally posted by kamikz
...Yoda was wrong in ROTS.

- At an end your rule is, and not short enough it was.
And Yoda clearly underestimated Sidious to, another mistake from the "all knowing jedi master".
Yoda was wrong because of plot necessity (he had to lose) He did not have to be wrong when he was training Luke.

Originally posted by kamikz

And still Lucas put Anakin's line there, was it wrong? Yes, of course it was. Was it still put there? Yes it was.
What line? I don't recall Anakin ever saying he was better than Mace.

Originally posted by kamikz
Tell me, why would Yoda have to use more of his force strenght to lift a pillar that is really big, and less when he is lifting a rock or something smaller? Tell me that instead, give me proof....
If I recall, Luke tried to raise the X-Wing, and when it went back under, said "It's too big." Yoda then said "Size matters not. Judge me by my size do you?" I forget if he then said something else... but he then lifted the X-Wing, to which Luke said "I don't believe it!" and Yoda replied "That is why you failed." Yoda was not at that point refering to the size of the object (which he had already said did not matter) but then refering to the fact that Luke failed because he did not believe what he was trying to do was possible, and was held back by his own view of what was and what was not possible.

kamikz
Originally posted by Darth Vious
Yoda was wrong because of plot necessity (he had to lose) He did not have to be wrong when he was training Luke.


What line? I don't recall Anakin ever saying he was better than Mace.


If I recall, Luke tried to raise the X-Wing, and when it went back under, said "It's too big." Yoda then said "Size matters not. Judge me by my size do you?" I forget if he then said something else... but he then lifted the X-Wing, to which Luke said "I don't believe it!" and Yoda replied "That is why you failed." Yoda was not at that point refering to the size of the object (which he had already said did not matter) but then refering to the fact that Luke failed because he did not believe what he was trying to do was possible, and was held back by his own view of what was and what was not possible.


Yeah, so? This shows that the "all knowing" Yoda can be wrong to. Just because he didn't have to be wrong doesn't mean he can't be wrong....

Here...

"Obi-Wan is as powerful as master Windu, and as wise as master Yoda, and still I'm beyond him"

Yeah, Luke said it was impossible AFTER it sunk. Maybe he could have tried again and succeeded, or maybe the same thing would have happened. Thing is that Luke did not disbelive it before he saw that he failed. The flaw with Luke that Yoda saw directly when he confronted him was that he always doubted things, always turned away from what needed to be done. This was the perfect lesson to show Luke how to control the force and belive that anything was possible. Still, that doesn't mean that any jedi can lift anything in the galxay, just that you should never doubt yourself....

Many martial artists say the same thing, "anything is possible". It is clear that anything is not possible, but it is a way to keep up hope, beliving. It makes you stronger indeed, and makes you try harder. That's what I think. But maybe you and I just have to agree to disagree?

Darth Vious
Originally posted by kamikz
Yeah, so? This shows that the "all knowing" Yoda can be wrong to. Just because he didn't have to be wrong doesn't mean he can't be wrong....
Okay, whatever...

Originally posted by kamikz

"Obi-Wan is as powerful as master Windu, and as wise as master Yoda, and still I'm beyond him"
Ahh, the line to Padme in her room... He was saying that he was ahead of Obi-Wan, not Mace or Yoda, and in all honesty, that was just typical Anakin arrogance to impress Padme (which didn't really work). He was however, regardless of his opinion, not beyond Obi-Wan, as RotS and ANH both showed...

Originally posted by kamikz

Yeah, Luke said it was impossible AFTER it sunk. Maybe he could have tried again and succeeded, or maybe the same thing would have happened. Thing is that Luke did not disbelive it before he saw that he failed.
Precicely. Luke did not think he could do it to begin with, (even if he actually could have done) which is why he failed. I've just checked the scene on YouTube, here're the exact quotes:





*Luke then attempts (unsuccessfully) to raise the X-Wing*


*Yoda then raises the X-Wing (not really struggling either, simply focussing his concentration)*



Originally posted by kamikz
Many martial artists say the same thing, "anything is possible". It is clear that anything is not possible, but it is a way to keep up hope, beliving. It makes you stronger indeed, and makes you try harder. That's what I think. But maybe you and I just have to agree to disagree?
I agree with your point there, that a positive mental attitude is required to succeed, but, that could equally apply to telekenetics, and that unless someone thinks (or knows) they can do something, they cannot.

kamikz
Originally posted by Darth Vious
Okay, whatever...


Ahh, the line to Padme in her room... He was saying that he was ahead of Obi-Wan, not Mace or Yoda, and in all honesty, that was just typical Anakin arrogance to impress Padme (which didn't really work). He was however, regardless of his opinion, not beyond Obi-Wan, as RotS and ANH both showed...


Precicely. Luke did not think he could do it to begin with, (even if he actually could have done) which is why he failed. I've just checked the scene on YouTube, here're the exact quotes:





*Luke then attempts (unsuccessfully) to raise the X-Wing*


*Yoda then raises the X-Wing (not really struggling either, simply focussing his concentration)*




I agree with your point there, that a positive mental attitude is required to succeed, but, that could equally apply to telekenetics, and that unless someone thinks (or knows) they can do something, they cannot.


In that line he was saying that Obi was equal to Mace, and that Anakin was beyond Obi. Thus in his mind Obi = Mace, Anakin > Obi which means Anakin > Mace. But apparently that is wrong....


Oh yeah, I had also forgotten the whole line. Yoda was wise and knew much about the force, at this I agree. But still, it does not mean he means a jedi can move anything if they want to. You need potential and midichlorians to move something that is HUGE, not many could have done what Yoda did in AOTC, and Yoda showed that it was very heavy, even for him, to do... So I think that line was only to mentally boost Luke, to make him belive in himself. He knew how high Luke's potential was, if he belived in himself he could almost do anything he wanted to. But that does not go for any jedi....

Pyro Tyrannus
I think ROTS Vader could (human) could take Mace. . .

Darth Vious
Originally posted by kamikz
In that line he was saying that Obi was equal to Mace, and that Anakin was beyond Obi. Thus in his mind Obi = Mace, Anakin > Obi which means Anakin > Mace. But apparently that is wrong....
I don't think he was using that kind of logic, but simply making comparisons to people both Padme and the audience were familiar with. He could've just said Obi-Wan was wise and powerful, but he was giving examples, and it was just ego massage, I don't think he was meaning it as such a literal comparison, as he would have said "I'm above them", not "I'm above him" so just refering to Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by kamikz
Oh yeah, I had also forgotten the whole line. Yoda was wise and knew much about the force, at this I agree. But still, it does not mean he means a jedi can move anything if they want to. You need potential and midichlorians to move something that is HUGE, not many could have done what Yoda did in AOTC, and Yoda showed that it was very heavy, even for him, to do... So I think that line was only to mentally boost Luke, to make him belive in himself. He knew how high Luke's potential was, if he belived in himself he could almost do anything he wanted to. But that does not go for any jedi....
But Yoda was not struggling to lift the X-Wing. He gathered his thoughts and focus, then did it, and was totally at ease while doing so. To be honest, I think Luke's 'skills', are as hyped up and exagerated as Anakin's. I didn't see him doing anything in RotJ that Zet Jukassa couldn't do, infact, there was one point where Zet's skills are clearly superior to Luke's.

kamikz
Originally posted by Darth Vious
I don't think he was using that kind of logic, but simply making comparisons to people both Padme and the audience were familiar with. He could've just said Obi-Wan was wise and powerful, but he was giving examples, and it was just ego massage, I don't think he was meaning it as such a literal comparison, as he would have said "I'm above them", not "I'm above him" so just refering to Obi-Wan.


But Yoda was not struggling to lift the X-Wing. He gathered his thoughts and focus, then did it, and was totally at ease while doing so. To be honest, I think Luke's 'skills', are as hyped up and exagerated as Anakin's. I didn't see him doing anything in RotJ that Zet Jukassa couldn't do, infact, there was one point where Zet's skills are clearly superior to Luke's.


I think he was. He said that Obi-Wan was AS powerful as master Windu and as wise as master Yoda. He was comparing them, he could just have said that Obi was very powerful and wise, but instead he compared him to them. Why would he say them when he was talking about Obi? And in the ROTS novelisation Anakin indeed says "I'm stronger than any of you". It was ego, but he was wrong. The point is that not everyone is right in the films, just because they say something doesn't mean it's true.....

But the X-Wing was much lighter than the tube in AOTC. Also, it doesn't make sense how anyone could lift anything. Jedi are limited to their potential. Actually, almost the only proof we have to Yoda being powerful is that he lifts different stuff, and that is indeed impressive. If an object is to heavy then a jedi can't lift it, it is that simple. It has been shown that when lifting a rock and lifting a building there is a difference...

Darth Vious
Originally posted by kamikz
I think he was. He said that Obi-Wan was AS powerful as master Windu and as wise as master Yoda. He was comparing them, he could just have said that Obi was very powerful and wise, but instead he compared him to them. Why would he say them when he was talking about Obi?
As I said, as comparisons to people known to Padme and the audience as reference points to boost his own ego.

Originally posted by kamikz
And in the ROTS novelisation Anakin indeed says "I'm stronger than any of you".
Where does he say that? Is it when he is appointed to the Jedi Council and they don't make him a Master?

Originally posted by kamikz
The point is that not everyone is right in the films, just because they say something doesn't mean it's true.....
but referencing the RotS novel has no bearing on a comment from the movie AotC or ESB.

Originally posted by kamikz
But the X-Wing was much lighter than the tube in AOTC.
How do you know?The strain could have come from the fact that Yoda was trying to stop an object already in motion, not the weight of the object.

Originally posted by kamikz
Actually, almost the only proof we have to Yoda being powerful is that he lifts different stuff
And that his insight about things and people is seldom wrong.
And that he is a skilled lightsaber duellist.

Originally posted by kamikz
It has been shown that when lifting a rock and lifting a building there is a difference...
Where? As I said before, stop using a strawman rather than adressing the actual statement. I've quoted directly from ESB Yoda's own words, here they are again:

Luke:
Master, moving stones around is one thing, this is totally different...

Yoda:
No! No different! Only different in your mind! You must unlearn what you have learned

Luke:
I can't. It's too big.

Yoda:
Size matters not.

Luke:
I don't... I don't believe it!!!

Yoda:
That, is why you fail.

It does not get any clearer than that.

Escape81
You just don't get it, do you?

Palpatine is Yoda's equal. He was able to overpower and put Yoda on the defensive at specific points in the duel, unlike Count Dooku. Furthermore, as I have already stated - and Lightsnake has supported - Dooku was unable to defeat Yoda on Vjun, a planet steeped in the Dark Side of the Force.

To top it off, Yoda was distracted trying to save a woman from plunging to her death when Dooku attacked him. And he still, in the end, managed to force Dooku to flee Vjun - despite it being under Confederacy control.

If Yoda were Dooku's equal, then Dooku would have overcame his former master with so many advantages at his disposal. But he didn't.

Face it. Dooku would be unable to defeat Yoda in a fight, and he would be unable to defeat his Master.

Y'know, the only person in the galaxy that Dooku is scared of? Why the hell would Count Dooku - the guy who has no fear about facing Yoda, Anakin, or Obi-Wan - be afraid of Sidious if he is able to defeat him?

None.

Dooku is inferior to Sidious, and would die facing him in combat.

Escape81
Furthermore, Vious -

A single repulsorpod is roughly twice as large as one of the generators that Dooku threw at Yoda. He struggled to rip those free - as well as the debris from the roof of the hangar.

Sidious tossed three or four repulsorpods with ease at Yoda. To top it off, he was able to do something Dooku couldn't in his duel in AotC. He managed to force Yoda on the defensive at various points in their lightsaber duel, managed to strike him, managed to disarm him, and caused a stalemate.

He forced Yoda to flee.

The point is, Sidious is more powerful than Dooku in the force. His skills with a saber aren't exactly sub-par, either, combine the two - and he would defeat his apprentice.

He dies at seven. That's the bottom line.

Rampant ox
Originally posted by Escape81
Furthermore, Vious -

A single repulsorpod is roughly twice as large as one of the generators that Dooku threw at Yoda. He struggled to rip those free - as well as the debris from the roof of the hangar.

Sidious tossed three or four repulsorpods with ease at Yoda. To top it off, he was able to do something Dooku couldn't in his duel in AotC. He managed to force Yoda on the defensive at various points in their lightsaber duel, managed to strike him, managed to disarm him, and caused a stalemate.

He forced Yoda to flee.

The point is, Sidious is more powerful than Dooku in the force. His skills with a saber aren't exactly sub-par, either, combine the two - and he would defeat his apprentice.

He dies at seven. That's the bottom line.

Dooku is inferior to Yoda. I am not arguing that, im just saying its not by some massive margin. If Yoda was leagues above Dooku he would have won in AOTC, but he couldnt. And Dooku would also lose to Sids, but again not by some huge margin. IMO Dooku has better lightsaber skills than Sids but is way behind him in terms of force ability.

Pyro Tyrannus
Originally posted by Escape81
Furthermore, Vious -

A single repulsorpod is roughly twice as large as one of the generators that Dooku threw at Yoda. He struggled to rip those free - as well as the debris from the roof of the hangar.

Sidious tossed three or four repulsorpods with ease at Yoda. To top it off, he was able to do something Dooku couldn't in his duel in AotC. He managed to force Yoda on the defensive at various points in their lightsaber duel, managed to strike him, managed to disarm him, and caused a stalemate.

He forced Yoda to flee.

The point is, Sidious is more powerful than Dooku in the force. His skills with a saber aren't exactly sub-par, either, combine the two - and he would defeat his apprentice.

He dies at seven. That's the bottom line.

A quote that will blow your argument out of the water?

Yoda: Size matters not. . .

Yoda: Judge me by my size, you should not. . .

kamikz
This was to Vious point. (I'm a slow writer)

So you basically say that a jedi can move anything in the galaxy with their mind alone? Why didn't anyone but Yoda do such things? A jedi cannot move a planet, tell me, where is the proof that a jedi can do anything just if he wants to except for Yoda's quote? Tell me, where is the proof? Prove to me that he wasn't just encouraging Luke.... You see, people is fascinated by Luke Skywalker's feats, like ripping out an engine from a space ship or tripping AT-AT's with the force. But if all those things and their size were insignificant to the force, then why is he ALMOST the only one to have done such feats and why is it incredible?

Why would he need to? Anakin didn't need to make a comparison, and it doesn't even matter, Anakin was wrong, he was not above Obi-Wan either so my point still stands....

Yes it was when he was not selected as a master.

So when Luke says, "No, it's impossible" when Vader tells him that he is his father, it is impossible?

Yoda only mentioned size, not weight. If something weights incredibly much then that is what is keeping Yoda from lifting it directly. For example, if the size or weight doesn't matter then why would Yoda have more trouble catching that big tube than catching one of those pods in the senate chamber? That pod had even MORE force behind it, Dooku just let that big object fall, Sidious tossed this pod against Yoda. If it truly didn't matter then Yoda would have just tossed it away as easily as if someone tried to knock him over by tossing a stone.

Pyro Tyrannus
Originally posted by kamikz
So you basically say that a jedi can move anything in the galaxy with their mind alone? Why didn't anyone but Yoda do such things? A jedi cannot move a planet, tell me, where is the proof that a jedi can do anything just if he wants to except for Yoda's quote? Tell me, where is the proof? Prove to me that he wasn't just encouraging Luke.... You see, people is fascinated by Luke Skywalker's feats, like ripping out an engine from a space ship or tripping AT-AT's with the force. But if all those things and their size were insignificant to the force, then why is he ALMOST the only one to have done such feats and why is it incredible?

Why would he need to? Anakin didn't need to make a comparison, and it doesn't even matter, Anakin was wrong, he was not above Obi-Wan either so my point still stands....

Yes it was when he was not selected as a master.

So when Luke says, "No, it's impossible" when Vader tells him that he is his father, it is impossible?

Yoda only mentioned size, not weight. If something weights incredibly much then that is what is keeping Yoda from lifting it directly. For example, if the size or weight doesn't matter then why would Yoda have more trouble catching that big tube than catching one of those pods in the senate chamber? That pod had even MORE force behind it, Dooku just let that big object fall, Sidious tossed this pod against Yoda. If it truly didn't matter then Yoda would have just tossed it away as easily as if someone tried to knock him over by tossing a stone.

That is why Yoda is Yoda. It depends on the potential and the skill to do so. Dooku to the potential he had and became one of the most powerful Jedi/Sith.

Escape81
Oh yes. . . that just rips up my argument.

Maybe you just don't understand.

Dooku had more difficulty chucking a smaller object than Sidious, who chucked three or four repulsorpods - one of which, by the way - was bigger than Dooku's "generator".

So, no. It doesn't do anything to my argument.

Sidious is better than his apprentice. Better than Dooku. Dooku dies at seven.

Pyro Tyrannus
Originally posted by Escape81
Oh yes. . . that just rips up my argument.

Maybe you just don't understand.

Dooku had more difficulty chucking a smaller object than Sidious, who chucked three or four repulsorpods - one of which, by the way - was bigger than Dooku's "generator".

So, no. It doesn't do anything to my argument.

Sidious is better than his apprentice. Better than Dooku. Dooku dies at seven.

I'm not saying that Dooku is better than Sids in the force. I'm just addressing your narrow view of the way the force works. Dooku wins because of his superiour saber skills. . .

Lightsnake
Which aren't that superior to Sidious and certainly won't help him when Sidious uses the force. Dooku is in NO WAY, SHAPE OR FORM on the level of his master. In a fight, he'd DIE. Dooku was SCARED of Sidious and his saber skills won't help. You know why they won't help? Because Sidious is much stronger in the dark side

Pyro Tyrannus
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Which aren't that superior to Sidious and certainly won't help him when Sidious uses the force. Dooku is in NO WAY, SHAPE OR FORM on the level of his master. In a fight, he'd DIE. Dooku was SCARED of Sidious and his saber skills won't help. You know why they won't help? Because Sidious is much stronger in the dark side

and you say my arguments are bogus? Where does it say that he is scared of that old hag? Dooku not only has extensive training as a Sith but as a Jedi as well. That gives him many different abilities and understandings...

Lightsnake
Dark Rendevous, Labyrinth of Evil, ROTS novelization...Dooku was scared of and outrighted stated to be Sidious's inferior.

And big freaking deal, Sidious has an entire lifetime of Dark Side training. Dooku is owned and owned again by his master. Want more proof?

Dark Side sourceobok calls Sidious the strongest Sith Bane's order would ever produced. You know something amusing? Tyranus is included in that order!

Escape81
Rofl. I even was so kind as to post word-for-word excerpts from Dark Rendezvous on this thread.

Amazing how Rampant Ox and Tyrannus ignored them . . .

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Escape81
You just don't get it, do you?
On the contrary, you're the one who doesn't get it. I have quoted word for word from the film what Yoda said about moving objects. When he commented to Palpatine about his rule, he was expressing an opinion (which turned out to be wrong) When he was tutoring Luke, he was stating facts, which he then proved to be right! If you mention the size of an object having relevence again, I will just ignore you, because you are only expressing your opinion, which means f*ck all compared to the 100% canon accuracy of the movie.

Originally posted by Escape81
Palpatine is Yoda's equal. He was able to overpower and put Yoda on the defensive at specific points in the duel,
I quite agree. Infact, I agree entirely. Both had the other on the defensive at specific points, so I would agree that they are totally equals, neither is better than the other, one just happened to succeed. In a rematch (where plotline did not dictate the outcome) it could just as easily have gone to Yoda.

Originally posted by Escape81
Dooku is inferior to Sidious, and would die facing him in combat.
Dooku's Force abilities may be inferior to Palpatine's, but, his saber technique is obviously superior. During his duel with Mace, Palpatine's motions were entirely predictable and readable. As someone else pointed out, it was so slow it was laughable. I ignored the rest of your comment as it was irrelevent.

((The_Anomaly))
Yet in his duel with Yoda he was extremely fast and unpredictable...interesting... roll eyes (sarcastic)

Nor did I think he was predictable in his fight with Mace, your just stating what you saw was predictable, give a quote saying he was "predictable" in his duel with Mace, if not, then it means nothing.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Escape81
Furthermore, Vious -

A single repulsorpod is roughly twice as large as one of the generators that Dooku threw at Yoda.
Pyro has already mentioned the quote that you seem intent on ignoring, regarding Yoda's comment's on size, and to avoid wasting time later on your answer to him, don't be so f*cking pedantic by trying to say that the weight and size of an object is relevent. Luke said that it was totally different to moving rocks. Yoda replied that it was no different. That means size, weight, everything. An object is an object, and if a Jedi can move one, they can move another. That is 100% canon accurate, so stop trying to deny it.

Originally posted by Escape81
To top it off, he was able to do something Dooku couldn't in his duel in AotC. He managed to force Yoda on the defensive at various points in their lightsaber duel, managed to strike him, managed to disarm him, and caused a stalemate.

He forced Yoda to flee.
When Yoda was bouncing around the hangar, was he engaging Dooku, or was he... on the defensive??!! I don't deny that Yoda is a more powerfull Jedi than Dooku, but, not by a huge margin. You're not comparing a 5 watt like Seasee Tiin to Yoda, but a 9.5 who is just below Yoda's 10.

Originally posted by Escape81

The point is, Sidious is more powerful than Dooku in the force.
Yes.

Originally posted by Escape81
His skills with a saber aren't exactly sub-par
Yes they are. They are predictable and readable, Dooku's were not. Dooku might not have the Force ablilties of Palpatine, but he is a more skilled duellist.

Originally posted by Escape81
He dies at seven. That's the bottom line.
That's only your opinion, and I disagree with it.

((The_Anomaly))
Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Yet in his duel with Yoda he was extremely fast and unpredictable...interesting... roll eyes (sarcastic)

Nor did I think he was predictable in his fight with Mace, your just stating what you saw was predictable, give a quote saying he was "predictable" in his duel with Mace, if not, then it means nothing.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Yet in his duel with Yoda he was extremely fast and unpredictable...interesting... roll eyes (sarcastic)

Nor did I think he was predictable in his fight with Mace, your just stating what you saw was predictable, give a quote saying he was "predictable" in his duel with Mace, if not, then it means nothing.
There is no "quote" available, but it's clear to anyone who watches his duelswhat his intentions are. When he pulls his saber hilt back to his body and holds it there, what is he going to do with it other than stab it forwards? When he holds it above his head, what is he going to do other than bring it slashing down? That's not an opinion, but observable facts that anyone with any knowledge of fencing could read.

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