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Okay, this has been debated over and over and over and overand over and over and over and over and over again. But i decided to just make a thread about it so people can stop going of-topic on matches were Kenobi and Dooku are involved.


Who wins in a straight up duel, no force powers, just sabers?


Setting is Geonosis arena.

Hahaha. I agree this has been done hundreds of times. It would be far more difficult for the Count if he couldnt use the force. But eventually he would still win. Soresu isnt really made for attacking so it would be hard for Kenobi to break through the Counts defences. So after a very long battle the Count takes it.

dooku's style is almost all defence eventually Obi-Wan would get trough it and beat him

I foresee a very long battle. lol. I guess the winner would be who ever wore out first. So I would have to say Obi-Wan would win. Of course this all depends on the battle field as well.

without the force dooku wont be able to move very quickly but obi-wan is still fairly young and can move around without struggle

Passive use of the force is allowed right?

Obi-Wan has this battle in the bag. Dooku won't go down easily but Master Kenobi would win in the end.

? Dooku would still be able to outduel him. It would just take longer.

Force means crap. Makashi is a goddamn good way of fighting, probably even more so against a form that is based on defense. Obi Wan is good at defending but good at destroying his opponent? I doubt it.. especially with Dooku.

Well using the force is a big part of Dooku's dueling, as he always has a free hand that he can use to pull off some force moves while dueling.

Originally posted by overlord
Force means crap. Makashi is a goddamn good way of fighting, probably even more so against a form that is based on defense. Obi Wan is good at defending but good at destroying his opponent? I doubt it.. especially with Dooku.

Yeah because he couldn't handle Grievous at all.

Fact is Obi-Wan also knows Form IV which is an offensive form. Obi-Wan goes on the defense and waits for his opponent to make the first mistake.

He held off Yoda When It came to Lightsabers so Dooku coyld pull it off

Dooku wins.

They both use styles that focus on defence but Dooku's style gives him the ability to use nice counterattacks. In this department the fight can go on forever since both are using styles that use the idea of using very few amounts of energy.

Still...Dooku is far more experienced in duelling and actual fighting compared to Kenobi considering that he had a huge training advantage. Kenobi's form IV knowledge is almost useless - if Yoda the undesputed master of that form can't break through Dookus defence I'm pretty sure Kenobi can't do it either.

This might be a pretty close fight with both opponents waiting for one mistake of the other - but I guess Kenobi would make a mistake first here and then lose it.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Dooku wins.

They both use styles that focus on defence but Dooku's style gives him the ability to use nice counterattacks. In this department the fight can go on forever since both are using styles that use the idea of using very few amounts of energy.

Still...Dooku is far more experienced in duelling and actual fighting compared to Kenobi considering that he had a huge training advantage. Kenobi's form IV knowledge is almost useless - if Yoda the undesputed master of that form can't break through Dookus defence I'm pretty sure Kenobi can't do it either.

This might be a pretty close fight with both opponents waiting for one mistake of the other - but I guess Kenobi would make a mistake first here and then lose it.


Sorry Yoda did Break throught that's why dooky Ran away

I completely agree with Borbarad, except Dooku probably could outduel Kenobi and wouldn't have to rely on Kenobi making a mistake.

Originally posted by Hokage Yoda
Sorry Yoda did Break throught that's why dooky Ran away

Oh...this is why the duel ended with a saber lock and Dooku left with all his body parts being in the right place, right ?

Dooku wins, after a long fight. Kenobi would eventually make a mistake, and be pwnd,

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh...this is why the duel ended with a saber lock and Dooku left with all his body parts being in the right place, right ?


Yes but with his expensive classy cape between his legs. Anyway Dooku will Destroy Kenobi

Makashi was a defensive form? I didn't know.

Dooku would take this. He is the more skilled swordsman here.

Rex you're so sexy.

I can't help it.

naughty

kenobi would win

I'm guessing Dooku, but Kenobi was an excellent swordsman at this point.

Well, seeing how easily Dooku tagged Obi-Wan (not once but twice) in AotC, I can't see any reason why he wouldn't be able to do the same again.

In the Visual Dictionary (the dirtiest kind of EU, I know) for AotC, it says:

Even though theres books, does anyone really know how much Dooku got better since Aotc? Obi-Wan got MUCH better. But iono about Dooku. And in the Rots novel it says that once Obi-WSan stopped playing around and started using Makashi instead of Ataru (Or was it Juyo?) Dooku had trouble blocking Obi-Wans attacks. Which is odd...considering that Makashi is a defensive form, why would it be so aggresive?

Originally posted by BlaxicanTroller
Even though theres books, does anyone really know how much Dooku got better since Aotc? Obi-Wan got MUCH better. But iono about Dooku. And in the Rots novel it says that once Obi-WSan stopped playing around and started using Makashi instead of Ataru (Or was it Juyo?) Dooku had trouble blocking Obi-Wans attacks. Which is odd...considering that Makashi is a defensive form, why would it be so aggresive?
I think you've got it the wrong way round... Obi-Wan stopped using Ataru (acrobatics) at the end of TPM and focussed on Soresu (entirely defensive. Makashi is not really a defensive form, although it does include parries and returns, as it is a form for actual blade to blade duelling.

im talking about the Rots novel.




EDIT: Oh, I get what your saying. You misunderstood me. In the Rots novel, when Obi-Wan and Anakin are fighting Dooku, the first half of the match they are toying with him. Obi-Wan uses Ataru (Even though he mastered Soresu) and Anakin used something else that wasn't his form. Dooku, thinking that Anakin and Obi were using there REAL form,s and sucking, let his gaurd down.Then Obi-Wan and Anakin started using there REAL forms and Dooku could barely dodge/block there attacks. Ani and Obi tricked Dooku.

Originally posted by BlaxicanTroller
im talking about the Rots novel.




EDIT: Oh, I get what your saying. You misunderstood me. In the Rots novel, when Obi-Wan and Anakin are fighting Dooku, the first half of the match they are toying with him. Obi-Wan uses Ataru (Even though he mastered Soresu) and Anakin used something else that wasn't his form. Dooku, thinking that Anakin and Obi were using there REAL form,s and sucking, let his gaurd down.Then Obi-Wan and Anakin started using there REAL forms and Dooku could barely dodge/block there attacks. Ani and Obi tricked Dooku.
Gotcha. I haven't read the entire RotS novel, just a few bits here and there. However, the movie supercedes that for canon accuracy, and during the duel (in the movie), Dooku had no trouble blocking any of Anakin or Obi-Wan's attacks, and only had his hands cut off when Anakin physically grabbed him and cut them off, they didn't get cut off while they were still fighting blade to blade, as they were when Dooku severed Anakin's arm.

Originally posted by BlaxicanTroller
Makashi was a defensive form? I didn't know.

It uses parries and thrusts. It is an offense/defense form. . .

Originally posted by BlaxicanTroller
Makashi was a defensive form? I didn't know. It is actually a bit of a lower defensive form. It is used to tire out opponents and to make precise and effective jabs. So it could be seen more of an offensive style.
So what Eragon993 said is right but he mixed up the warriors.

Obi Wan using Ataru again however.. Maybe he could, probably not.

eh? Dooku had no trouble blocking their attacks? Well, that's hard to say considering we don't get many close ups and we don't know what the Count is thinking. The novelization and the script take precedence where the movie was not clear... and Dooku did get quite tired from dueling the duo.

Originally posted by overlord
It is actually a bit of a lower defensive form. It is used to tire out opponents and to make precise and effective jabs. So it could be seen more of an offensive style.
So what Eragon993 said is right but he mixed up the warriors.

Obi Wan using Ataru again however.. Maybe he could, probably not.

Nah I just thought Makashi was almost puely offensive.


And yes Obi-Wan is good at both Ataru and Soresu. But he specializes in Soresu

Originally posted by Darth Vious
Well, seeing how easily Dooku tagged Obi-Wan (not once but twice) in AotC, I can't see any reason why he wouldn't be able to do the same again.

In the Visual Dictionary (the dirtiest kind of EU, I know) for AotC, it says:

There is no force this time haha

Originally posted by Razielim
eh? Dooku had no trouble blocking their attacks? Well, that's hard to say considering we don't get many close ups
You don't need closeups to see if a blade is blocking another or not. None of the blows during the duels touched Dooku, so it's pretty clear he was able to block them.

Originally posted by Razielim
The novelization and the script take precedence where the movie was not clear... and Dooku did get quite tired from dueling the duo.
No, they do not. The movie is the highest level of canon. The script is simply a series of guidelines for the actors to base (and expand upon) with their performance. The novel might explain something in more detail (like Obi-Wan turning Grievous overpowering his defences to his advantage), but, he can be seen to do that in the movie (with the first hand he severs. The second hand, however, was severed when he moved is own blade against Grievous')

Originally posted by Kaithen
There is no force this time haha
When did I say anything about the Force being used? Dooku never used the Force in his AotC duel with Obi-Wan when he tagged him with the saber, only when he used Force lightning (which Obi-Wan grounded) and then when he pushed Anakin back (having cut off his arm during blade to blade combat)

That Kenobi was MUCH worse than ROTS Kenobi.

Yes, he was blocking the blades but you claimed he had "no trouble" blocking them. Although he was keeping up with them, it's premature to say he was doing so without exerting himself.



Yes, I agree. But in the movie we can't tell if he's tired or not... The novelization and the script comes in to clarify.

Exactly, and the novelization is as high cannon as the movie is as long as it doesn't directly contradict it. Since the movie doesn't show how much energy is being used, the book is cannon, because it's not contradicting anythinng by saying how much effort was used to block or attack something/someone.

Originally posted by Razielim
Yes, he was blocking the blades but you claimed he had "no trouble" blocking them. Although he was keeping up with them, it's premature to say he was doing so without exerting himself.
After the initial attack by Anakin and Obi-Wan, Dooku settled, and said "I've been looking forward to this." With, if not exactly a grin on his face, definitely a look of excitement/enjoyment. If he had found it difficult to block both their blades, then he would not have made the comment, and would have looked concerned. The fact he seperated them was because he was supposed (so he thought) to be fighting Anakin, not Obi-Wan, and, although he could clearly deal with them both at once, he was just a) keeping things simple for himself and b) taking Obi-Wan out of the fight so he could then fight Anakin one on one, so Obi-Wan could not help him (with what Dooku thought was a test)

Originally posted by Razielim
Yes, I agree. But in the movie we can't tell if he's tired or not... The novelization and the script comes in to clarify.
I agree, the novelization can clarify some aspects, but, from the movie, I do not think Dooku did look tired, simply overpowered by a younger man.

Dooku did not separate them so he can fight Anakin, his mission was to slaughter Obi-Wan and turn Anakin, and as the book says: "And Sideous would take it from there." He had to separate them, because, as the book says, When Obi-Wan and Anakin stopped actually playing around and started using there real combat forms, Dooku was immediately overwhelmed by the duo's speed, strength, and skill. So he had to separate the two to even the odds.

Originally posted by BlaxicanTroller
Dooku did not separate them so he can fight Anakin, his mission was to slaughter Obi-Wan and turn Anakin
So are you saying that when Dooku put Obi-Wan under the gantry that was supposed to either kill him outright, or just 'keep him in place', until he'd turned Anakin and would then turn his attention back to Obi-Wan to kill him?


Originally posted by BlaxicanTroller
He had to separate them, because, as the book says, When Obi-Wan and Anakin stopped actually playing around and started using there real combat forms, Dooku was immediately overwhelmed by the duo's speed, strength, and skill.
As I said before:
Originally posted by Darth Vious
After the initial attack by Anakin and Obi-Wan, Dooku settled, and said "I've been looking forward to this." With, if not exactly a grin on his face, definitely a look of excitement/enjoyment. If he had found it difficult to block both their blades, then he would not have made the comment, and would have looked concerned.
That says to me, that Anakin and Obi-Wan together weren't a serious threat to Dooku, and he only seperated them so he could focus on Anakin (with the intention of testing/turning him), not necessarily because Obi-Wan posed any threat to him. Afterall, Dooku handled Obi-Wan pretty easily with both saber and Force skills in that duel. (Including back-kicking Anakin while suspending Obi-Wan)

But your basing your argument on assumptions, assumptions that are trying to fill the gaps of things the movie doesn't show. But the book does, so basicly your arguing against the book. THe book says that Dooku was overwhelmed by Obi-Wan and Anakins true skill. And if the book says so, and it's not contradicting anythign from the movie, it's cannon, no matter what you think about it.

Originally posted by BlaxicanTroller
But your basing your argument on assumptions, assumptions that are trying to fill the gaps of things the movie doesn't show. But the book does, so basicly your arguing against the book. THe book says that Dooku was overwhelmed by Obi-Wan and Anakins true skill. And if the book says so, and it's not contradicting anythign from the movie, it's cannon, no matter what you think about it.
As I said:
Originally posted by Darth Vious
After the initial attack by Anakin and Obi-Wan, Dooku settled, and said "I've been looking forward to this." With, if not exactly a grin on his face, definitely a look of excitement/enjoyment. If he had found it difficult to block both their blades, then he would not have made the comment, and would have looked concerned.
That is not an assumption, but a fact observed by watching the duel (several times over the past few days). So the book is a contradiction, asthe movie showed that Dooku was able to handle both Anakin and Obi-Wan without difficulty.

Originally posted by BlaxicanTroller
Nah I just thought Makashi was almost puely offensive.


And yes Obi-Wan is good at both Ataru and Soresu. But he specializes in Soresu What do you mean 'nah..' I am responding to the thread more than I am responding to you!!
But I think Makashi is a good match for both Soresu and Ataru.

Makashi is great against Soresu, but not Ataru.

Originally posted by overlord
What do you mean 'nah..' I am responding to the thread more than I am responding to you!!
But I think Makashi is a good match for both Soresu and Ataru.

What the hell are you talking about?

If Obi-Wan can use the Force, and Dooku can't, he has a pretty good shot . . .

If neither of them can use the Force, I'd say Dooku. Why? Because he would awe Obi with his sheer hottness.



How was my impression of Rampant Ox?

Seriously. Dooku would win. Most likely.

Originally posted by BlaxicanTroller
Exactly, and the novelization is as high cannon as the movie is as long as it doesn't directly contradict it. Since the movie doesn't show how much energy is being used, the book is cannon, because it's not contradicting anythinng by saying how much effort was used to block or attack something/someone.

http://starwars.wikia.com/images/0/08/Dookuepisodeiii.jpg

Err...Anakin attacks him with both hands at his lightsaber, Obi-Wan doesn't look very "relaxed" and Dooku blocks them both at once with his blade over his head and using only one hand.

And those should be able to simply "overpower" him ? Or even less possibly Obi-Wan on his own ? No way.

Can we see his face? Whats his facial expression? For all we know he might be straining, but, being the classy old man that he is might not show it.

Originally posted by Escape81
If Obi-Wan can use the Force, and Dooku can't, he has a pretty good shot . . .

If neither of them can use the Force, I'd say Dooku. Why? Because he would awe Obi with his sheer hottness.



How was my impression of Rampant Ox?

Seriously. Dooku would win. Most likely.

Hahaha. Dooku isnt particularly good looking. However he looks a hell of a lot better than most people in the SW universe. And I probably would have said 'Dooku wins because he is almighty' or something along those lines btw!!

Actually REX is the sexiest Starwars character

Originally posted by BlaxicanTroller
Actually REX is the sexiest Starwars character

Hahahaha. Absolutely!!! My mistake.

Originally posted by BlaxicanTroller
What the hell are you talking about? What do you mean, mister?

You're quite sure that he wouldn't say "I've been looking forward to this" if he would have had trouble blocking their first attack? That's the best argument ever!!
Anyway, the fight was just beginning so who the hell cares.
Maybe they didn't immediately try their absolute best.

Originally posted by overlord
You're quite sure that he wouldn't say "I've been looking forward to this" if he would have had trouble blocking their first attack? If Dooku had had trouble dealing with their initial attack (which he clearly did not) then he would not have made the comment.

Originally posted by overlord
That's the best argument ever!!
You don't even have an argument, you're just trolling!

Originally posted by overlord
Anyyay, the fight was just beginning so who the hell cares.
Begining, end, it doesn't make any difference. The point is, Dooku was confident in his ability to duel both Anakin and Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by overlord
Maybe they didn't immediately try their absolute best.
Maybe they did. Either way, even when Anakin did try his absolute best, none of his swings touched Dooku, as the Count blocked them all. Don't try modifying a quote to insult me again, you're just embarassing yourself. I can back up every point I make, which is more than you can say.

Vious is right in this case.

THey both own each other. 5 mintues into the battle. Dooku jabs at obi-wan. But obi-wan blocks with a outwards truhst and then dookus saber goes flying right behind obi-wan. then obi-wan goes and makes his gay little speeh. and yadda yadda. then obi-wan walks away and dooku gets his saber and slices off obi-wans head. and then dooku slips on a rock and breaks his neck and dies. rip

Um, sure.

Dooku...

Obi-Wan wins. He was said to be virtually unstoppable with a lightsaber, like a wall or something. Dooku'd get tired before Obi-Wan would and I highly doubt any saber atatcks Dooku did could get past kenobi's defenses.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Obi-Wan wins. He was said to be virtually unstoppable with a lightsaber, like a wall or something. Dooku'd get tired before Obi-Wan would and I highly doubt any saber atatcks Dooku did could get past kenobi's defenses.

WTF!!!! Dooku would not get tired before Obi-Wan. His style uses minimun energy!!! And of couse Dookus attacks would break through Kenobis defences. He has done it before and Dooku is a master of the lightsaber vs lightsaber style. So Dooku wins with relative ease.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
WTF!!!! Dooku would not get tired before Obi-Wan. His style uses minimun energy!!! And of couse Dookus attacks would break through Kenobis defences. He has done it before and Dooku is a master of the lightsaber vs lightsaber style. So Dooku wins with relative ease.


Soresu ALSO specializes in using almost no energy, as it's goal is to prologn a fight, wearing out an opponent until he makes an error, than the soresu user strikes. Also, Dooku's form is THE saber to saber combat, but Soresu is THE defensive form.

Originally posted by BlaxicanTroller
Soresu ALSO specializes in using almost no energy, as it's goal is to prologn a fight, wearing out an opponent until he makes an error, than the soresu user strikes. Also, Dooku's form is THE saber to saber combat, but Soresu is THE defensive form.

True. But Soresu draws out the fight to make the opponent tired. Dookus style counters that because it uses minimum energy. So Obi-Wan will probably tire before the Count anyway. And yes Soresu is the defensive form, but that didnt stop Dooku slashing his arm and leg...

But they BOTH use minimum energy, so Dooku's style using minimum enery doesn't really matter. And at that time Obi-Wan hadn't mastered Soresu yet. But at the time of Rots you'll notice that Oni-Wan's gaurd was never penetrated the entire movie.

There's a big difference between the Obi-Wan Dooku encountered in AOTC and the one he faces in ROTS. If you remember how the match in AOTC went Dooku was able to pierce through Kenobi's defenses and beat him fair and square in a swordfight. In AOTC Kenobi's already using Seresu(Soresu?) but he is not a master in it. By the time of ROTS Kenobi is a master of the form. Obi even got props from Mace Windu and part of the reason Obi was sent to handle Griveous was because of his mastery over that style. In ROTS we see Dooku take a different approach to handle Kenobi. He is not able to get Kenobi the same way he did before, and relies on using his superior force to overwhelm and put Obi-Wan out, fast.

IMO without the use of the Force as an offensive technique Dooku will eventually go down.

It would be an awesome battle.

I agree.

Originally posted by Superboy Prime
There's a big difference between the Obi-Wan Dooku encountered in AOTC and the one he faces in ROTS. If you remember how the match in AOTC went Dooku was able to pierce through Kenobi's defenses and beat him fair and square in a swordfight. In AOTC Kenobi's already using Seresu(Soresu?) but he is not a master in it. By the time of ROTS Kenobi is a master of the form. Obi even got props from Mace Windu and part of the reason Obi was sent to handle Griveous was because of his mastery over that style. In ROTS we see Dooku take a different approach to handle Kenobi. He is not able to get Kenobi the same way he did before, and relies on using his superior force to overwhelm and put Obi-Wan out, fast.

IMO without the use of the Force as an offensive technique Dooku will eventually go down.

It would be an awesome battle.

Because Dooku used a different approach to eliminate Kenobi in ROTS means nothing. It doesnt prove that Dooku couldnt have taken him out in a straight duel. The Count was fighting two opponents this time remeber, so he needed to eliminate Kenobi ASAP. So it thebattle wont depend on who gets tired first because that would take ages. it depends on who is the better duellist and that would be Dooku.

The novel itself states Dooku was not able to handle Kenobi's defense. Nor could he tango with Anakin's physical strength. Also I don't think it would take ages for Dooku or Obi to get tired. It is quite possible for Jedi/Sith to get tired. Qui-Gon was tired the last moments before he died. Yoda himself was tired after fighting with Palpatine, Vader as well when fighting Luke. Now taking into consideration Dooku is Obi's senior by almost 50 years I'd say he will get tired before Obi-Wan.

No matter how long it takes for Dooku to get tired he -will- tire.

True. But Dookus age is hardly relevant either. He is said to have the strength of a 40 year old man. He wont get tired before Obi-Wan. His style wont allow it. And besides Soresu isnt really a offencive style. He wont be able to attack Dooku very well, and when he does attack Dooku will block him with relative ease.

Hence why Soresu is so effective. Soresu, being the more defensive for, will require Dooku to attack. So Dooku will spend almost all his time attacking, and no matter what form except, attacking will always drain your energy more than defending. So, if Dooku has the stamina of a fourty-year old man, then Obi-Wan will probably have the stamina of a 20-30 to year old. Add that to fact that Dooku will be mostly attacking, meaning he will exert more energy, and Dooku will probably tire out alot faster than Obi-Wan.

The point that im making is that the battle will last a long time. Easily enought time for Dooku to land the killing blow.

Dooku is simply the better fighter. Kenobi is a skilled swordsman, to be sure, but Dooku is his superior in that category.

But we don't knwo how much more skilled he is by the time of Rots.

Originally posted by BlaxicanTroller
But we don't knwo how much more skilled he is by the time of Rots.
Still not enough skill to land a blow on Dooku - with Anakin helping him.

What proof do we have of that? Dooku STILL couldn't get past Obi-Wans gaurd even when Anakin was out of the battle for a few minutes.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
WTF!!!! Dooku would not get tired before Obi-Wan. His style uses minimun energy!!! And of couse Dookus attacks would break through Kenobis defences. He has done it before and Dooku is a master of the lightsaber vs lightsaber style. So Dooku wins with relative ease.

You're obviously blinded with pro-Dooku bias....

You probly think that he would own 1000 clone troopers at once!

Originally posted by BlaxicanTroller
What proof do we have of that? Dooku STILL couldn't get past Obi-Wans gaurd even when Anakin was out of the battle for a few minutes.

What?!? When did Dooku battle Kenobi one on one for 'a few' minutes. Never. So dont talk sh*t. The truth is Dooku has wtf pwned Kenobi twice before, and there is nothing stopping him from doing it again. Even without use of the force. Heck, Dooku is far better at fighting with a saber anyway. Im not saying Kenobi is weak (he is my thirs fav character) but he isnt on the same level as the Count.

Originally posted by DiamondBullets
You're obviously blinded with pro-Dooku bias....

You probly think that he would own 1000 clone troopers at once!

He would.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
What?!? When did Dooku battle Kenobi one on one for 'a few' minutes. Never. So dont talk sh*t. The truth is Dooku has wtf pwned Kenobi twice before, and there is nothing stopping him from doing it again. Even without use of the force. Heck, Dooku is far better at fighting with a saber anyway. Im not saying Kenobi is weak (he is my thirs fav character) but he isnt on the same level as the Count.

Please don't tell ME about talking shit. Why don't you go look at your own idiotic posts in the "it isn't fair" topic before saying anything I have said is sh*t. In the novel he fights Obi-Wan one on one for about a minute or two. And yes, the novel IS CANNON BECAUSE IT IS NOT CONTRADICTING THE MOVIE!!! I AM SAYING THIS TO EVERYONE WHO KEEPS SAYING THAT THE ROTS NOVEL IS NOT CANNON!


Get your facts straight before insulting me kid.

But in the movie he never faces Obi in a one on one, only Anakin. So it does contradict it.....

Originally posted by darthsith19
Obi-Wan wins. He was said to be virtually unstoppable with a lightsaber, like a wall or something. Dooku'd get tired before Obi-Wan would and I highly doubt any saber atatcks Dooku did could get past kenobi's defenses.
What happened to Obi-Wan when he duelled against Dooku in AotC?

Originally posted by BlaxicanTroller
But they BOTH use minimum energy, so Dooku's style using minimum enery doesn't really matter. And at that time Obi-Wan hadn't mastered Soresu yet. But at the time of Rots you'll notice that Oni-Wan's gaurd was never penetrated the entire movie.
Actually, Grievous penetrated Obi-Wan's defence. That's why his first hand was cut off. Obi-Wan was unable to keep blocking at Grievous' speed (novelization clarrified the point) and simply shifted his own blade so that Grievous would cut himself against it. (novelization said it was the saber that got cut, movie showed it to be the hands... Regardless of which, the reason for the cutting remained the same) It's not easy to see on the DVD, it takes a few passes on slow motion to really notice, but, Grievous actually cuts himself on Obi-Wan's blade. The second hand, however, Obi-Wan did cut off, by sliding his blade down against Grievous' blade while they were in a saber lock.


Originally posted by BlaxicanTroller
What proof do we have of that?
The fact that Dooku blocked all of Obi-Wan's and Anakin's combined blows shows that they did not have the skill to get through his defenses, even though his form of combat is not entirely geared towards defence, which Obi-Wan's is (and Dooku was able to penetrate twice)

Originally posted by BlaxicanTroller
Please don't tell ME about talking shit. Why don't you go look at your own idiotic posts in the "it isn't fair" topic before saying anything I have said is sh*t. In the novel he fights Obi-Wan one on one for about a minute or two. And yes, the novel IS CANNON BECAUSE IT IS NOT CONTRADICTING THE MOVIE!!! I AM SAYING THIS TO EVERYONE WHO KEEPS SAYING THAT THE ROTS NOVEL IS NOT CANNON!


Get your facts straight before insulting me kid.

The same novel that says Dooku was toying with him ? And because Dooku couldn't get through Obi-Wan's defence in AotC Obi-Wan ends up with his arm and leg injured and unable to continue battle ? Great.

Aside of this it's stated that Dooku outduelled Masters and even Council Members before he left the order without any use of the force. So why should he suddenly have a problem with Obi-Wan especially when we see that Obi-Wan and Anakin together aren't able to get through his defence ?

Dooku easily wins this imho. Both styles are similar: Soresu is all about defence and tiring out your opponent, and draws out long fights, however Makashi uses minimal energy which counters the tiring out factor of Soresu and is much more effective in breaking down someone's defences (it was bred for saber combat). Not to mention the fact that Dooku has decades more experience then Obi-Wan, and has been able to easily handle him on many occasions including ROTS.

Yeah but the novel says Obi-Wan is toying with Dooku as well.



Obi-Wan was not a Soresu master in AotC...



Because Anakin, alone, owned him in half a minute.

I'm not Kenobi'll win; Obi-Wan seems to always suck when dueling Dooku for some reason, but he is strong in his own right. In a sabers only match I think it might be close.

Originally posted by Razielim
I'm not Kenobi'll win; Obi-Wan seems to always suck when dueling Dooku for some reason, but he is strong in his own right. In a sabers only match I think it might be close.

Well Makashi seems to be the most effective form against Soresu because it uses minimal energy which counter's the tiring out factor of Soresu, and is still the most effective at outdueling opponents through careful and precise means.

Dooku wipes his ass with Kenobi. . .

Originally posted by Lord Dragonfire
Well Makashi seems to be the most effective form against Soresu because it uses minimal energy which counter's the tiring out factor of Soresu, and is still the most effective at outdueling opponents through careful and precise means.



Soresu doesn't have a tiring out factor. It'smain goal is to use the minmum amount of energy by the user until his opponent tires out from all the attacking.

Or...I may have misunderstood you. Didi you mean that Makashi is the counter for Soresu because Soresu relies on it's opponent to tire out, but since makashi uses almost no energy the makashi user won't tire out soon, hence, the soresu user won't have many oppertunities to attack?

Originally posted by Pyro Tyrannus
Dooku wipes his ass with Kenobi. . .

I agree.

You misunderstood me.

k, sorry about that. And still all you fanboys out there, yo've shown no proof that Dooku can beat Obi-Wan other than WELL IN AOTC DOOKU BEAT OBI-WAN SO!!!!" Which has already been refuted multiple times. So...

Originally posted by BlaxicanTroller
k, sorry about that. And still all you fanboys out there, yo've shown no proof that Dooku can beat Obi-Wan other than WELL IN AOTC DOOKU BEAT OBI-WAN SO!!!!" Which has already been refuted multiple times. So...

Yes but that is solid proof from one of the highest sources of canon. All you are saying is that Kenobi will win because he is a master of Soresu. True, but hardly something to base your argument on when Dooku is a Makashi master.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Yes but that is solid proof from one of the highest sources of canon. All you are saying is that Kenobi will win because he is a master of Soresu. True, but hardly something to base your argument on when Dooku is a Makashi master.

ROTS Obi-Wan > ATOC Obi-Wan

Are you saying that during the Clone Wars Obi-Wan some how weakened in skill and power? Fact is Dooku used the Force on Obi-Wan in ROTS to defeat him and that same Dooku was defeated by Anakin without the use of the Force. Now then that same movie Obi-Wan not only outlasted Anakin in a duel but also defeated him.

Anakin was fighting at his hardest against Obi-Wan and still couldn't break through his defenses to win and here he even used the Force and disarmed Obi-Wan for a moment.

Anakin managed to not only break through Dooku's defenses but slew Dooku as well.

Just because Kenobi bet Anakin and Anakin bet Dooku doesnt mean Kenobi would beat Dooku. It is PROVEN that Dooku can beat Kenobi. So dont argue that. And yes, both men have grown in skill since AOTC, but there is nothing to say Kenobi has surpassed Dooku except your assumptions. So Dooku will win after a long (because of the Soresu mastery) fight.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Just because Kenobi bet Anakin and Anakin bet Dooku doesnt mean Kenobi would beat Dooku. It is PROVEN that Dooku can beat Kenobi. So dont argue that. And yes, both men have grown in skill since AOTC, but there is nothing to say Kenobi has surpassed Dooku except your assumptions. So Dooku will win after a long (because of the Soresu mastery) fight.

No Dooku was hardly in any battles and usely spent his time spending out his lackies to do his dirty work: Asajj, Durge, Grievous, and so on. Obi-Wan spent much time on the front lines in some of the biggest battles of the Clone Wars. Fact is Obi-Wan had much to learn and much to approve on. Dooku didn't.

Obi-Wan clearly became far stronger then he was in ATOC and Dooku remained about the same.

And Dooku defeating Obi-Wan with the Force doesn't matter in a lightsaber only battle. And the only PROOF you would have is that Dooku had to use the Force to defeat Obi-Wan and then Anakin slew Dooku.

And yes I do believe that Obi-Wan defeating Anakin proves my point for Anakin couldn't even break through Obi-Wan's defenses after fighting throughout Mustafar and yet he did with Dooku in like 2 minutes.

Obi-Wan didn't want to kill Anakin or else he would have finished the job at the end of the duel instead of leaving him there so Obi-Wan clearly was defensive for that reason.

Were ahs it been PROVEN that Obi-Wan would lsoe in a fight? I want some proof other than "Well in Aotc he beat him, so..." especialy considering that there is no proof that Dooku has even gotten much better seince Aotc, yet Obi-Wan has improved by leaps and bounds.

Originally posted by BlaxicanTroller
Soresu doesn't have a tiring out factor. It'smain goal is to use the minmum amount of energy by the user until his opponent tires out from all the attacking.

Or...I may have misunderstood you. Didi you mean that Makashi is the counter for Soresu because Soresu relies on it's opponent to tire out, but since makashi uses almost no energy the makashi user won't tire out soon, hence, the soresu user won't have many oppertunities to attack?

Well actually Obi-Wan would also wait for an opening to go on the attack like he did with Grievous. He defended himself with Form III and went with powerful Form IV assaults when he saw an opening.

YEah I forgot about that. Another reason Obi-Wan is so good is because he's got both forms down, and blends them together to have an almost flawless offence and flawless defence.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Obi-Wan spent much time on the front lines in some of the biggest battles of the Clone Wars. Fact is Obi-Wan had much to learn and much to approve on. Dooku didn't.

You make it sound like Dooku didnt improve at all. Yes, Kenobi got better but that still doesnt put him on the level of Dooku who has 80+years experience.



I dont see Kenobi 'clearly' get stronger. He still got wtf pwned by Dooku in about 15 seconds with Anakin helping him. Dooku might not have gotten much better in the clone wars but he is still above Kenobi.



Its an A<B<C argument. So I dont think you can base your argument from it. Remebering that Obi-Wan knew all of Anakins moves and vice versa.



I disagree. He probably thought that Anakin was as good as dead anyway. He isnt foolish enough to let someone like Ankain live. And anyway this has little to do with the argument.



Thats a pretty big exaturation. Especially when he has been beaten by the Count twice before.

1. Dooklu DIDN'T improve at all, if not than BARELY, Dooku sat around in the background, pulling strings, sipping martinis, and getting his old man political charm on, nearly the entire campaign. Obi-Wan on the other hand spent the entire campaign on the front lines, fighting droids and Sith such as Assaj Ventress. Obi-Wan would be in a lot better fighting shape than the Count.

2. When Obi-Wan got WTFpwnd, if your referring to Rotsm guess what? DOOKU USED THE FORCE! AND THERE IS NO USING THE FORCE IN THIS MATCH SO THAT'S IRRELEVANT!111!111 So if you don't "clearly" see Obi-Wan get better, than buy some damned glasses, it's pretty easy to see someone's improvement when they've been bumped up to the rank of JEdi Master AND put on the Jedi Council AND titled THE Soresu Master. That's quite an improvement.

3. I agree slightly with this, A>B>C arguments don't really work that well, because there's usually some weird stipulation in saber duels.

4. I agree again. Matter of fact we KNOW Obi-Wan was going to kill Anakin, because if you watch the movie, there will be a part were Anakin loses his falls down and drops his light saber, which rules away. Obi-Wan walks up to him and raises his light saber, than strikes downward, trying to obviously strike Anakin in the chest. Anakin force pulls the light saber into his hand, ignites it, and raises it up in time to parry Obi-Wan's strike.

5. Thats not a big exaggeration, because...guess what, again? The first time Dooku beat Kenobi, HE WASN'T THE SORESU MASTER!!!! The second time he "beat" kenobi, HE USED THE FORCE, WHICH, IS IRRELEVANT BECAUSE there's NO FORCE POWERS IN THIS MATCH.

dooku was a more experienced swordsmen, but he doesn't have the youth of obiwan, and without the force he'll tire because he relies so heavily on the force.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
No Dooku was hardly in any battles and usely spent his time spending out his lackies to do his dirty work: Asajj, Durge, Grievous, and so on. Obi-Wan spent much time on the front lines in some of the biggest battles of the Clone Wars. Fact is Obi-Wan had much to learn and much to approve on. Dooku didn't.

When precicely on the front lines was Obi-Wan actually using his lightsaber in a duelling situation? Only in the fanboywritten comics.
Dooku was shown in CW to spar with Assaj and Grievous, that was at least evidence that he was keeping his skills sharp.



Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Obi-Wan clearly became far stronger then he was in ATOC and Dooku remained about the same.
I'd agree, Obi-Wan improved more than Dooku, but still not enough to beat him in a duel. In all honesty, it was almost embarassing how quickly Dooku put him down in AotC. Any improvement on Obi-Wan's part would simply be prolonging the inevitable.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
And Dooku defeating Obi-Wan with the Force doesn't matter in a lightsaber only battle.
I agree.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
And the only PROOF you would have is that Dooku had to use the Force to defeat Obi-Wan and then Anakin slew Dooku.
But Anakin did not best Dooku with a lightsaber, he physically grabbed him.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest

And yes I do believe that Obi-Wan defeating Anakin proves my point for Anakin couldn't even break through Obi-Wan's defenses after fighting throughout Mustafar and yet he did with Dooku in like 2 minutes.

How many of Anakin's saber swings actually hit Dooku? He never broke through Dooku's defenses with his saber. He had to resort to physical means to do so.
Here are the pics that prove it:
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c348/DefenderoftheInnocent/0f37dae9.jpg
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c348/DefenderoftheInnocent/3a8a9676.jpg
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c348/DefenderoftheInnocent/9376c8e3.jpg

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Obi-Wan didn't want to kill Anakin or else he would have finished the job at the end of the duel instead of leaving him there so Obi-Wan clearly was defensive for that reason.
Obi-Wan didn't want to kill Anakin, but he was prepared to (remember his line "I will do what I must..."
The reason Obi-Wan didn't kill Anakin rather than leaving him, was because he did not want to strike down an unarmed man.

Obi-Wan is my favorite character, but I can still accept that Dooku is a superior swordsman to him.

I firmly believe Obi-Wan Kenobi could eliminate Dooku in this match. Without his mastery over the force Dooku would not be able to last long against Kenobi IMHO.

Dooku was danicing about Kenobi and Skywalker like a drunk sorority girl in ROTS. Kenobi on his own against Dooku, would bite the dust.

Im sure he would. THis same dancing school girl was also getting owned for a few minutes by the duo in the nvel, which is cannon.

Originally posted by BlaxicanTroller
Im sure he would. THis same dancing school girl was also getting owned for a few minutes by the duo in the nvel, which is cannon.

Really the same novel that says Ataro instead of Ataru? The same which said Kit Fisto's head landed on the desk when it was seen clearly that he was chopped in half at the waist? Or that Yoda was getting severly owned by Sidious? I don't think so. . .

Yeah that one. The one thats still cannon as long as it doesn't contradict the movie? Were all of the thigns you just listen are not contradicting the movie? Yeah, I think so.

Originally posted by BlaxicanTroller
Yeah that one. The one thats still cannon as long as it doesn't contradict the movie? Were all of the thigns you just listen are not contradicting the movie? Yeah, I think so.

Didn't I just present situations from the novel that contradict the film?

No actually. The movies did not show it, hence, it does not contradict anything. AN example:

In the Rots movie Dooku gets his hands, as well as hi shead, lopped off. If the book had instead showed Anakin choppign off Dooku's arms, than his head, than his legs, than force pushed across the room. Than the book would be contradicting the movie and thus, not cannon.


Ataru's spelling can be spelled w/e way, and that may have just been a typo in the book.

It is clearly shown actualy that Kit FIsto is just slashed in he chest, and he falls down. THey don't show his body fallign in two halves like Maul.

And finally no one knows whether or not Yoda was actually having a hard time or not. He may have been physicly exhausted from that match, but, being a Jedi, surpressed his emotios nand feeligns in order to concentrate.

Originally posted by BlaxicanTroller
1. Dooklu DIDN'T improve at all, if not than BARELY, Dooku sat around in the background, pulling strings, sipping martinis, and getting his old man political charm on, nearly the entire campaign. Obi-Wan on the other hand spent the entire campaign on the front lines, fighting droids and Sith such as Assaj Ventress. Obi-Wan would be in a lot better fighting shape than the Count.


Hilarious.
Dooku (from AotC to ROTS) trained his Dark acolytes (including Ventress) and Grievous - which would be quite some sparring time. He confronted Anakin, Obi-Wan, Yoda (twice), Mace Windu, Sora Bulq, Ventress (CW cartoons) and Tholme.

Yet the only saber to saber action Obi-Wan did see was fighting Asajj (who kicked his ass - even giving him problems pretty close to RotS) and sparing with Anakin. But somehow he improved more then Dooku who did see far more "real" saber to saber combat and trained multiple lightsaber users in this time period.

Not to mention he just had to close a 5 decade experience gap between himself and Dooku who was just one of the 3 best duellist and most powerful Jedi the Order had seen in the last centuries, able to defeat Masters and Council members in lightsaber combat without using the force and was the head instructor of the order for advanced lightsaber combat (which means he must have known more than one form).




Wow. Let's see. Obi-Wan did receive a title that Dooku would have earned decades before if he didn't defy the Councils decissions. Great. Then he became "the" master of a form that we only see being used by 3 (!) Jedi - while Dooku mastered the ULTIMATE REFINEMENT OF LIGHTSABER TO LIGHTSABER COMBAT decades before Obi-Wan first had a lightsaber in his hand.

Then we have just to ingore the fact that Dooku trained, sparred and always defeated the second most powerful form IV user of the PT (Qui-Gon) a form which Obi-Wan is basing his entire offensive movements on and then we might see Obi-Wan having a chance here.



And he still managed to defend himself against Anakin and Obi-Wan both at once in sheer saber confrontation. But suddenly he will have more problems handling one of them then he had handling both at once ?