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who would win???

Drizzt has icingdeath and twinkle, the bracers and all his standard equipment ( not the small hand crosbow explosive darts or otherwise )
NO MAGIC PANTHER


Cap has his shield.


One other thing, The hunter can apear.

Originally posted by tyranus


Sometimes you have to wait a bit. It's a forum, not a chat room.

I'd say Drizzt 7/10, but I'm biased since I'm a huge fan. Both have ridiculous skills, and Drizzt has fought people stronger than him plenty of times and been fine. If Cap gets enough hits in, Drizzt will fall, but Cap's skin definitely isn't strong enough to stop a magical scimitar. Cap would fall too under enough duress.

Long fight though....both would probablyhave to stay on the defensive.

i put that because the treaad would disapear in the background.

Anyway, yes this would be a bttle to see, dont worry about being a fan even whit basis alone these 2 are incredible fighters, but the hunter will prevail at the end i think, cap does a mistake and hes dead.

Drizzt cuts him to ribbins. Im a big fan, have all the books. lol Besides that I really think drizzt would own him. He also has a limited ammount of magic as well, he's a ranger.

Hmm. I probably give a slight edge to Cap. He probably is as fast as Drizzt, stronger, as agile (probably even more) and he can block his strikes with his shield.

Ill go stronger but I dont think as agile or as fast, drizzt was already far faster and more agile than any normal human(Artemis Entreri excluded) now he uses bracers of speed which doubles his speed and number of attacks per "round". I dont think cap can block that many attacks coming from so many different angles.

Drizzt is way faster than Cap, has no compuction about killing, and has magic weapons that he knows how to use. I say he wins 9/10
This is the wrong forum for this though

Drizzt is like a sushi chef with those scimitars.

Originally posted by Tassadar
This is the wrong forum for this though

That's my call. Drizzt has a continuous comic series now and doesn't really belong anywhere else either....so I allow him here.

Originally posted by Tassadar
Drizzt is way faster than Cap, has no compuction about killing, and has magic weapons that he knows how to use. I say he wins 9/10
This is the wrong forum for this though And Cap isn't faster then humans?

And he doesn't know how to use his shield?

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
And Cap isn't faster then humans?

And he doesn't know how to use his shield?

Right.

And he also DOES have a compunction about killing (if a person is good).....so it's hardly a curbstomp here.

Drizzt is a bad azzzzzz. He was a very accomplished fighter befor he turned to the rangers path. Young even for his kind hes got close to a centurys worth of exp already. He's fought and killed(banished) highly magical demos, mages ect ect. He's also highly intelligent with magical weapons, armor and innate magical abiliites. He could drop a globe of darkness over himself and cap, hes a lot better suited to fight in darkess than cap is. He's just got to many tools and abilities for cap to handle, my opinion anyway.

*laughs* Cap, 7/10. Some people are giving the Dungeons & Dragons a little too much credit here.

Originally posted by Soljer
*laughs* Cap, 7/10. Some people are giving the Dungeons & Dragons a little too much credit here.
u mean forggotten realms

Do you know anything about drizzt other than "dungeons and dragons"? Theres been several examples of characters like drizzt in marvel comics, asgardian dark elves for one. He has all the abilities as Ive stated and has performed all the feats Ive mentioned as well.

Yeah, unless you know a lot about both, it's easy to be very biased in this fight against the other person.

It would be close. Unfortunately, there's not a ton of common ground between Marvel and Forgotten Relams, though I'd still lean toward Drizzt.

Aye, I'm aware of Drizzt. Last I checked, Forgotten Realms was a campaign setting for the Dungeons & Dragons pen and paper RPG. There are many characters throughout ALL popular media that are similar to Drizzt, that are satires of Drizzt, homages to Drizzt, and hell; even damn near CLONES of Drizzt.

That matters naught, because there is only one Drizzt that we are discussing, and that Drizzt would lose to Captain America. Not in any curbstomp, but certainly for the majority.

It would make an awsome fight and sadly your right thier is a limited ammount of common ground on which to judge. Im not being biased at all, I like cap but I dont think he can win against a fighter of that caliber with so many tools at his disposal.

Originally posted by Soljer
Aye, I'm aware of Drizzt. Last I checked, Forgotten Realms was a campaign setting for the Dungeons & Dragons pen and paper RPG. There are many characters throughout ALL popular media that are similar to Drizzt, that are satires of Drizzt, homages to Drizzt, and hell; even damn near CLONES of Drizzt.

That matters naught, because there is only one Drizzt that we are discussing, and that Drizzt would lose to Captain America. Not in any curbstomp, but certainly for the majority.

Yeah, he's in D&D. Way to turn the tables there.

The way Im looking at it is you ahve cap. A human at the very pinnacle of human performance, awsome hand to hand fighter, leadership skills and his shield. Then Im looking at a non-human thats past peak human performance, has more exp than cap, more abilities than him, better equipment and absolutly no problems with killing. Also arguably every bit caps equal in battle. thats how Im looking at the battle, maybe different than anyone else.

Well, for starters, you are admonishing human's very much. Even in 'FR,' there are humans who can more than match elves, strike to strike. Saying that an elf is just outright BETTER than a human is somewhat ignorant in and of itself. Beyond that, you might also be mistaken on your definition of 'peak human.'

The most common definition is 'the best a human can possibly be,' which makes sense, from the wording. However, Captain America is stronger than any human would ever be, he is faster than any human (and a lot of meta-humans) could hope to be, and he has survived the likes that few humans have ever witnessed.

Captain America is an AMAZING combatant, but not only hand to hand. He can adapt to nearly anything, and uses his shield with the utmost of efficiency.

True as it may be, that Drizzt has more abilities, and is more versatile, Captain America would still win in the head to head fight. Too much power behind his hands. What's more - Captain America doesn't even need to end Drizzt's life, a quick knock to the head with his shield would likely be capable of knocking him out, without ending his life.

There is so much Captain America underestimation on these boards (and, admittedly, a bit of overestimation in the canon comics), he is more than most people think of him.

Drizzt not only has Bracers, but also Anklets of speed, And Drow Elves are even more fast than standard surface elves, a fact backed up by the RPG rules as well as Salvatore. Drizzt is pretty much the fastest Drow alive WITHOUT the magical boost seeing as he had the highest possible natural Dexterity.

I'm not sure how much faster than Cap he is, but he IS faster and it's not a very small difference. he also has 2 weapons + Kicks to Cap' shield, free hand, and feet.

Plus Drizzt can lim Cap in faere fire at an unexpected moment to give him a second's hesitation, and that will be all she wrote.

He could also drop a globe of darkness on him if he throws the shield and deflect it and stay between Cap and his shield, and he will fight AT LEAST as well as Cap in the darkness due to his long long experience with it.

That being said, Cap can get a win or 2 in, but Drizzt wins AT LEAST 7/10

nice to see the thread is doing fine.

Originally posted by Soljer
Well, for starters, you are admonishing human's very much. Even in 'FR,' there are humans who can more than match elves, strike to strike. Saying that an elf is just outright BETTER than a human is somewhat ignorant in and of itself. Beyond that, you might also be mistaken on your definition of 'peak human.'

The most common definition is 'the best a human can possibly be,' which makes sense, from the wording. However, Captain America is stronger than any human would ever be, he is faster than any human (and a lot of meta-humans) could hope to be, and he has survived the likes that few humans have ever witnessed.

Captain America is an AMAZING combatant, but not only hand to hand. He can adapt to nearly anything, and uses his shield with the utmost of efficiency.

True as it may be, that Drizzt has more abilities, and is more versatile, Captain America would still win in the head to head fight. Too much power behind his hands. What's more - Captain America doesn't even need to end Drizzt's life, a quick knock to the head with his shield would likely be capable of knocking him out, without ending his life.

There is so much Captain America underestimation on these boards (and, admittedly, a bit of overestimation in the canon comics), he is more than most people think of him.

Drizzt is not an AMAZING combatant, hes a IMPOSIBBLY GOOD fighter not with just his scimitars but with almost any handheld weapon (swords and that kind of stuff) his reflexes are lighting quick, before he had the braces he could do the phantom move: when a guy swings a sword his way he uses the visual block to move behind him, all the guy saw was: swing sword.... were did he go???.
Too much power behind his hands???
obould was an avatar for goodsakes, he could knock down a frostgiant, not to mention all the times hes fought ogres and once an earth elemental, Caps fast but not has fast has drizzt, id like to see cap hit drizzt with his shield, he can block it with one scimitar and skewer him with the other, and thats normal drizzt, remember i mentioned the hunter, the hunter drizzt is far more capable, but cap is also quite good so i give it to drizzt 8/10

Originally posted by DigiMark007
That's my call. Drizzt has a continuous comic series now and doesn't really belong anywhere else either....so I allow him here.

He does? Ill have to look that up.

Originally posted by tyranus
when a guy swings a sword his way he uses the visual block to move behind him, all the guy saw was: swing sword.... were did he go???

You mean like the time Captain America was being fired upon with a firearm and seemingly 'disappeared' to only be behind the firer?

Okay, Just checking.

Originally posted by Tassadar
He does? Ill have to look that up.

yes ande its quite good.

http://s57.photobucket.com/albums/g223/tyranus_2006/?action=view&current=homeland.jpg

Originally posted by tyranus
nice to see the thread is doing fine.



Drizzt is not an AMAZING combatant, hes a IMPOSIBBLY GOOD fighter not with just his scimitars but with almost any handheld weapon (swords and that kind of stuff) his reflexes are lighting quick, before he had the braces he could do the phantom move: when a guy swings a sword his way he uses the visual block to move behind him, all the guy saw was: swing sword.... were did he go???.
Too much power behind his hands???
obould was an avatar for goodsakes, he could knock down a frostgiant, not to mention all the times hes fought ogres and once an earth elemental, Caps fast but not has fast has drizzt, id like to see cap hit drizzt with his shield, he can block it with one scimitar and skewer him with the other, and thats normal drizzt, remember i mentioned the hunter, the hunter drizzt is far more capable, but cap is also quite good so i give it to drizzt 8/10

Sorry. Cap still has dodged faster things the Drizzt. Drizzt doesn't have nothing to show that he is faster. The sword feat? Cap has done the same with faster things. Like bullets:
http://img271.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ca21053pc.jpg
http://img271.imageshack.us/my.php?image=103ak.jpg

Or flamethrowers:
http://img271.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamericav48p15hgwells7xe.jpg
http://img271.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamericav48p16hgwells0ga.jpg

He moves as fast as the shield he throws:
http://img515.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamerica241021xm.jpg

As for not being able to block two swords...you are quite wrong there:
http://img127.imageshack.us/my.php?image=avengersv3005065ur.jpg

He could also very easily dodge them:
http://img306.imageshack.us/my.php?image=avengersv3005059vh.jpg
http://img230.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ca140167bd.jpg

As for Drittz dodging Cap's thrown shield...this is one example of how fast it goes:
http://img306.imageshack.us/my.php?image=avengersv1396147hx.jpg

Few examples how well he throws it (he handles the shield as well as Drizzt handles scimitars...not to mention that the shield is harder to handle):
http://img127.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cap41ed.jpg
http://img119.imageshack.us/my.php?image=avgrs75111kk.jpg

As for Drizzt blocking the shield...won't happen:
http://img518.imageshack.us/my.php?image=avengers004138iu.jpg
http://img528.imageshack.us/my.php?image=avengersv1010192sc.jpg
http://img500.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ca25045hl.jpg
http://img500.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamericaiii25p342tk.jpg

And this thing just has to be posted to show Cap badassness. Something that Drizzt could not do:
URL=http://img331.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan00222pr.jpg]http://img331.imageshack.us/img331/2839/scan00222pr.th.jpg http://img331.imageshack.us/img331/7710/scan00239un.th.jpg http://img331.imageshack.us/img331/2331/scan00243nj.th.jpg http://img331.imageshack.us/img331/2371/scan00258xv.th.jpg http://img331.imageshack.us/img331/237/scan00266jd.th.jpg http://img331.imageshack.us/img331/1333/scan00276vh.th.jpg http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/1608/scan00286bd.th.jpg http://img331.imageshack.us/img331/6641/scan00295fv.th.jpg http://img331.imageshack.us/img331/2415/scan00309ew.th.jpg http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/9397/scan00316cl.th.jpg

Most scans taken from Captain America Respect thread.

I never admonished humans and I never said elves were better, thats a very narrow and incorrect view of what I said. I said "a non-human that is past human peak performance" I never said anything about humans vs. elves I only stated to what species each character is. If your going to try and pick apart my theory at least read what i said. Drizzt as well has dodged faster things than caps shield and has blocked faster things as well. Arrows and crossbow bolts to name a couple. Im not underestimating cap at all, I just dont think he can do it. Drizzt is one of the if not the finest swordsman in that particular fantasy world and has taken down people and beings tougher than cap.

While Drizzt is considered to be an 18th level Character. Cap should be considered an Epic Level Fighter. I mean jesus christ his sparring partners were a thunder god, an iron golem, and uber troll (thor, iron man, and ... okay so theres no such thing as uber troll, but what else would you use to describe hulk). He even orders around guys like Hercules, the sentry,

Cap America seems to be a 24th level epic level fighter with
BAT: +26, AC +25, STR 24, DEX 24, CON 18, WIS 16, INT 15, CHA 20

They both fought demons. How many gods can drizzt attest to defeating. Cosmic Cube, Korvac... jeez... honestly take RA Salvatore away from Drizzt, have cap watching drizzt piss the on flag and burn it... and watch cap develop a new feat, how to decapitate an elf with his shield.

I think Drizzt is faster, and more agile, and is insanely skilled with his weapons... LIKE INSANELY skilled, I think the only way that captian america could win would be too draw out the fight, because Cap probably has a greater endurance. Drizzts globes of darkness could really be a deciding factor. I think it would be one hell of a fight... like awesome, 6.5/10 for drizzt though, he is just way to fast, and way to agile and deadly with those swords.

Drizzt was a 20th level fighter befor turning into a ranger in which he is 18th level. 38 total levels. Thats from the menzoberranzan box set. He has defeated loths minions and her plans, thats pretty amazing in it self.gods are a lot different between these two worlds you know that, When you say a god in d&d it means a god. Big difference........Well anyway that my take on it, we aint all gonna agree thats just the way it is. These are different characters from two different worlds.

Gods in DD are not much compared to some beings in Marvel. And Drizzt hasn't still proven that he is faster...while Cap has better speed feats then he does.

Cap 7.5/10.

Arrows and Crossbow bolts don't move faster then Cap's shield. Nor they have the same force behind them (he threw it through a truck...)

Its kinda hard to compare feats when ones in panel and ones on paper so I dont think we can really determin with certainty who is faster though I believe drizzts magic makes the difference. As far as caps shield being faster than arrows or bolts the only way Ill believe that is seeing stats on paper. Im a competition archer myself and custom arrow builder. Modern bows can launch arrows well in excess of 300 feet per second(many around 330fps which is about 378 miles per hour). Ancient longbows a bit slower(The heavier bows shoot buy the english around 250 fps or about 280 miles per hour) with crossbows a bit faster than the typical longbow. Does anyone think cap can throw a 12 pound object at or more than 300 miles per hour? Throwing the shield thru a truck Id think had more to do with the shields construction than with the speed its thrown at.

Cap's shield throw catched with an ICBM missile once.
http://img500.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamericav327p097zm.jpg

Plus there is the aforementioned scan where it blocked a bullet after it had been fired. And many others. And the shields construction didn't have anything to do with it going through it. Do you know what it is composed of?

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Cap's shield throw catched with an ICBM missile once.
http://img500.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamericav327p097zm.jpg

Plus there is the aforementioned scan where it blocked a bullet after it had been fired. And many others. And the shields construction didn't have anything to do with it going through it. Do you know what it is composed of?
an unique vibranium adamantium alloy

Its made from a vibranium alloy. Yes I know, From caps strength I find it hard to believe he could throw something and catch up with a missle but oh well, there it is I guess. lol Seems way out of character profile.

Human Max = Human max = Human Max

Drizzt = Magic Speed Doubler + Drow Max > Drow Max > Surface Elf Max > Human Max

Cap > Human Max

Just because Drizzt hasn't interacted with Bullets he's automatically slower than Cap? SOUnds like Bias to me.

But the fact remains, that until Drizzt does something on par to Cap's we must conclude that he isn't faster. Only on same level at most. And Cap beats him in other areas (etc. strength).

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Cap's shield throw catched with an ICBM missile once.
http://img500.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamericav327p097zm.jpg

Plus there is the aforementioned scan where it blocked a bullet after it had been fired. And many others. And the shields construction didn't have anything to do with it going through it. Do you know what it is composed of?

It's public knowledge that his SHield is indestructable. Drizzt is too good a fighter to block it directly. He COULD redirect it away from him using his magically enhanced Scimitars though, and if teh Straps that Cap uses to hold it AREN"T indestructable there's a chance that those won't be together/there when the shield gets back to Cap severely limiting it's usefulness in a melee fight.

Thats were the problem lies we will never have on panel proof, only what we read. Not trying to be smart darkcrawler honestly but have you read the entire dark elf trilogy, 14 or so books? Thiers some amazing feats in that series. No doubt cap is stronger but then again drizzt has never tried to fight a much stronger opponnent head on( i.e directly blocking a much stronger person)

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
But the fact remains, that until Drizzt does something on par to Cap's we must conclude that he isn't faster. Only on same level at most. And Cap beats him in other areas (etc. strength).

I remember once he was running down a rock avalanche quite successfully until a rock hit him in the back of the head unexpectedly.

How much faster is Daredevil than human? Same with Cap compared to all the other Street level humans which are assumed Peak Human.

Elves are faster than that, Drow elves even faster. Drizzt is twice Drow speed, so it is more likely he is faster thanks to his enhancement. With an edge in speed he can split attacks and attack Cap's head and legs simultaneously, which he can do at Even speeds anyway.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Sorry. Cap still has dodged faster things the Drizzt. Drizzt doesn't have nothing to show that he is faster. The sword feat? Cap has done the same with faster things. Like bullets:
http://img271.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ca21053pc.jpg
http://img271.imageshack.us/my.php?image=103ak.jpg

Or flamethrowers:
http://img271.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamericav48p15hgwells7xe.jpg
http://img271.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamericav48p16hgwells0ga.jpg

He moves as fast as the shield he throws:
http://img515.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamerica241021xm.jpg

As for not being able to block two swords...you are quite wrong there:
http://img127.imageshack.us/my.php?image=avengersv3005065ur.jpg

He could also very easily dodge them:
http://img306.imageshack.us/my.php?image=avengersv3005059vh.jpg
http://img230.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ca140167bd.jpg

As for Drittz dodging Cap's thrown shield...this is one example of how fast it goes:
http://img306.imageshack.us/my.php?image=avengersv1396147hx.jpg

Few examples how well he throws it (he handles the shield as well as Drizzt handles scimitars...not to mention that the shield is harder to handle):
http://img127.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cap41ed.jpg
http://img119.imageshack.us/my.php?image=avgrs75111kk.jpg

As for Drizzt blocking the shield...won't happen:
http://img518.imageshack.us/my.php?image=avengers004138iu.jpg
http://img528.imageshack.us/my.php?image=avengersv1010192sc.jpg
http://img500.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ca25045hl.jpg
http://img500.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamericaiii25p342tk.jpg

And this thing just has to be posted to show Cap badassness. Something that Drizzt could not do:
URL=http://img331.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan00222pr.jpg]http://img331.imageshack.us/img331/2839/scan00222pr.th.jpg http://img331.imageshack.us/img331/7710/scan00239un.th.jpg http://img331.imageshack.us/img331/2331/scan00243nj.th.jpg http://img331.imageshack.us/img331/2371/scan00258xv.th.jpg http://img331.imageshack.us/img331/237/scan00266jd.th.jpg http://img331.imageshack.us/img331/1333/scan00276vh.th.jpg http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/1608/scan00286bd.th.jpg http://img331.imageshack.us/img331/6641/scan00295fv.th.jpg http://img331.imageshack.us/img331/2415/scan00309ew.th.jpg http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/9397/scan00316cl.th.jpg

Most scans taken from Captain America Respect thread.


Okay.

First off, Cap is no way faster than a bullet, what he and all guys like nightwing, batman and him do when peolple shot and they seem like they are dodging the bullets is that they move faster thatn you, ergo, the bullets dont hit them because you can't shoot were they are, you are moving faster that they can aim, caps not faster than a bullet, hes doing the same thing drizzt does and batman does when they apear behind someone, they move way faster than the guy can react.

He moves has fast has his shield????

Bullsh#t, his shield can be trown very fast, but there is no way hes that fast.


And his shield catching up to an ICBM?? Thats just plain bad writing, i dont know of fast are they exactly(the exact speed) but they are freaking fast, no way caps can throw something that fast.

and i would love to see caps shield cut trough magical reinforced adamnite, those pics you showed me? its cutting guns, they are made from steel.

okay just got the icbm speed, in 250 seconds it reaches a speed of 7 kilometers per second.

Originally posted by Dalak
I remember once he was running down a rock avalanche quite successfully until a rock hit him in the back of the head unexpectedly.

How much faster is Daredevil than human? Same with Cap compared to all the other Street level humans which are assumed Peak Human.

Elves are faster than that, Drow elves even faster. Drizzt is twice Drow speed, so it is more likely he is faster thanks to his enhancement. With an edge in speed he can split attacks and attack Cap's head and legs simultaneously, which he can do at Even speeds anyway.
Human abilities don't always transfer across mediums at a flat rate. As Cap mentions in one comic, he can run 60 mph and he's supposed to be peak human. That's just nuts.

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
Human abilities don't always transfer across mediums at a flat rate. As Cap mentions in one comic, he can run 60 mph and he's supposed to be peak human. That's just nuts.
Yea, thats quite a bit above peak human I would think, as is throwing his shield fast enough to catch a inter-contenental ballistic missle. If he can do these things hay its a comic no big deal, but if he can he sure aint no "peak human" He's a good bit above.

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
Human abilities don't always transfer across mediums at a flat rate. As Cap mentions in one comic, he can run 60 mph and he's supposed to be peak human. That's just nuts.

Well I grant you that to a point because of DBZ, but D&D Humans can do some amazing stuff (on the Street Level) as can marvel humans. HIgh-End Elves are faster and more agile however, and the magic doubling it should ensure at least a 50% edge in speed IMO

Originally posted by tyranus
Okay.

First off, Cap is no way faster than a bullet, what he and all guys like nightwing, batman and him do when peolple shot and they seem like they are dodging the bullets is that they move faster thatn you, ergo, the bullets dont hit them because you can't shoot were they are, you are moving faster that they can aim, caps not faster than a bullet, hes doing the same thing drizzt does and batman does when they apear behind someone, they move way faster than the guy can react.

He moves has fast has his shield????

Bullsh#t, his shield can be trown very fast, but there is no way hes that fast.


And his shield catching up to an ICBM?? Thats just plain bad writing, i dont know of fast are they exactly(the exact speed) but they are freaking fast, no way caps can throw something that fast.

and i would love to see caps shield cut trough magical reinforced adamnite, those pics you showed me? its cutting guns, they are made from steel. ummm no, cap dodges bullets, he said it himself, it has been stated he DODGES them, he can see the bullet itself coming out the barrell of the gun.

And yes when thrown hard enough he has BEAT bullets to their marks with the shield.

CAP IS that bad ass and he wins this one 9/10

Originally posted by King KAM
ummm no, cap dodges bullets, he said it himself, it has been stated he DODGES them, he can see the bullet itself coming out the barrell of the gun.

And yes when thrown hard enough he has BEAT bullets to their marks with the shield.

CAP IS that bad ass and he wins this one 9/10

Co-signed. He 'sees' faster.

He's a long way from peak human then, he sees about 1'600 to 3000 feet per second faster than any peak human..

Originally posted by MJOILNIR
He's a long way from peak human then, he sees about 1'600 to 3000 feet per second faster than any peak human.. ofcourse he aint peak human..... that bio is just silly...peak humans dont throw sumo wrestlers with ease

Thats it, Im justifing a fight between a peak human and drizzt, not a super human. No normal human or normal "sub race" being is gonna have much of a chance vs. super humans. Im tellin ya though from what Ive read(and ive read them all) drizzt is tough and would make a decent marvel character in the right setting.

Originally posted by MJOILNIR
Thats it, Im justifing a fight between a peak human and drizzt, not a super human. No normal human or normal "sub race" being is gonna have much of a chance vs. super humans. Im tellin ya though from what Ive read(and ive read them all) drizzt is tough and would make a decent marvel character in the right setting. yet capt america juggles grendates with the pins out, crushes coal into diamonds with his bare hands, and cathes sniper bullets aimed at the back of his head in his teeth.

he dont lose

Originally posted by King KAM
ofcourse he aint peak human..... that bio is just silly...peak humans dont throw sumo wrestlers with ease
It's likely that a comic book human has way more potential than real human. Thus peak human, or maybe even olympic level, in the comics are way above normal standards.

Originally posted by MJOILNIR
Thats it, Im justifing a fight between a peak human and drizzt, not a super human. No normal human or normal "sub race" being is gonna have much of a chance vs. super humans. Im tellin ya though from what Ive read(and ive read them all) drizzt is tough and would make a decent marvel character in the right setting.
Cosigned. Drizzt is a skilled fighter and very quick.

Originally posted by King KAM
yet capt america juggles grendates with the pins out, crushes coal into diamonds with his bare hands, and cathes sniper bullets aimed at the back of his head in his teeth.

he dont lose

And I have the scans to prove it.

Originally posted by King KAM
yet capt america juggles grendates with the pins out, crushes coal into diamonds with his bare hands, and cathes sniper bullets aimed at the back of his head in his teeth.

he dont lose
That sounds like a scene from superman 2

Anyway it would only take one little mistake by cap, only one. Its one thing to make a mistake and take a punch in the face, its another to take a schimitar in the face. He has taken plenty of punches i know that for a fact. Its not that easy to block two seperate weapons attacking at the very same moment in two different spots with one shield either.

Originally posted by MJOILNIR
That sounds like a scene from superman 2 caps SLOW monday morining>>>>>Superman2

Originally posted by MJOILNIR
Anyway it would only take one little mistake by cap, only one. Its one thing to make a mistake and take a punch in the face, its another to take a schimitar in the face. He has taken plenty of punches i know that for a fact. Its not that easy to block two seperate weapons attacking at the very same moment in two different spots with one shield either. well its a good thing cap doesnt make mistakes.

Originally posted by King KAM
well its a good thing cap doesnt make mistakes.
good way to look at it

Originally posted by King KAM
well its a good thing cap doesnt make mistakes.

Too bad that with 2 quick cuts that he won't be able to block thanks to corresponding HEadshots he will soon be Captain France

Captain America Wins. In this fight its drizzt vs Captain. I don't remember anyone saying a crappy RA Salvatore is writting the script. No automatic deus ex machina for the elf. Hell Captain America in D&D terms is an epic level 30 fighter. He'd defeat Drizzt. Purely on principle.

Originally posted by rotiart
Captain America Wins. In this fight its drizzt vs Captain. I don't remember anyone saying a crappy RA Salvatore is writting the script. No automatic deus ex machina for the elf. Hell Captain America in D&D terms is an epic level 30 fighter. He'd defeat Drizzt. Purely on principle.

And Drizzt IS a 38th level character.

But of course he loses because he's not from comics and RA had to be writing him beyond his capabilities.

Great Argument

Originally posted by Dalak
And Drizzt IS a 38th level character.

But of course he loses because he's not from comics and RA had to be writing him beyond his capabilities.

Great Argument Actually Drizzt does have comics, so his feats are credible in the comic-verse now. I own them myself.

Originally posted by Dalak
Too bad that with 2 quick cuts that he won't be able to block thanks to corresponding HEadshots he will soon be Captain France Like he's quick enough to cut the straps while Captain is wielding it. Seriously, Drizzt is not faster then Cap. He is not better fighter then Cap. He doesn't have as good stamina as Cap does. Cap is stronger then he is. And Cap could dodge those scimitars.

Cap simply has better feats, and I'm judging characters of what they have done. Not what someone assumes that they can do.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Like he's quick enough to cut the straps while Captain is wielding it. Seriously, Drizzt is not faster then Cap. He is not better fighter then Cap. He doesn't have as good stamina as Cap does. Cap is stronger then he is. And Cap could dodge those scimitars.

Cap simply has better feats, and I'm judging characters of what they have done. Not what someone assumes that they can do. Actually, according his stats, Drizzt is in literal GODLY level of agility and reflexes. He can litterally run up a perfectly smooth 90 degree surface with no imperfections, without losing a step, while swordfighting. I can't recite what his stats are in third edition offhand, but in second edition according the Heros for Forgotten Realms book, The limited print "Book of the Drow"the Forgotten Realms boxed set and the Menzoberanzan boxed set, his Dexterity is a 20, due to Dark Elf natural +2 bonus to Dex For comparison only Dieties themselves utypically have stats that go to that degree.

Not to mention dark elves have higher movement rates than elves do, who have higher movement rates than humans do. Drizzt IS faster than any normal human can be on his feet. Even aside his nimbleness aforementioned.

Cap is stronger though.

And both are premier top tier calible fighters.


I'm not saying for sure Drizzt or Cap would win or lose, but at least give credit where it's due. Drizzt is badass, 100%.

Originally posted by Dalak
And Drizzt IS a 38th level character.

But of course he loses because he's not from comics and RA had to be writing him beyond his capabilities.

Great Argument

... What? Drizzt is a level 15 Ranger.

His Third Edition Stats.

Strength: 13
Dexterity: 21
Constitution: 15
Intelligence: 17
Wisdom: 17
Charisma: 14
Fortitude Save +12
Reflex Save +12
Will Save +8

Annnnnnnnnnnd just for the hell of it Artemis' 3 Edition Stats

Strength: 14
Dexterity: 20
Constitution: 15
Intelligence: 16
Wisdom: 16
Charisma: 14
Fortitude Save +13
Reflex Save +17
Will Save +8

In second edition where he first stats appeared he was a 20th level fighter befor a turned into a ranger, in which he attained 18th level. I have all the recources stating this(menzoberranzan box set). They changed everything when 3rd came out(dont know why?). I still have the original basic edition box(as well as all the 1st,2nd and 3rd edition stuff) set I started with as a fact, just a side note there. No one plays anymore but I keep everything and read it now and again. When people do still play for the most part they play 2nd edition, 3rd isnt that popular with the old players.

No one has answered my question yet? Has anyone who keeps putting Drizzt down read all 16 or so books from the trilogy? Are you comparing speed and feats because ones a d&d character and one a superhero or are you basing them on actual knowledge of both characters? If you havent read all the books then its kinda hard to have an objective view I think. Your missing out on a great ammount of information.

Originally posted by MJOILNIR
Thats were the problem lies we will never have on panel proof, only what we read. Not trying to be smart darkcrawler honestly but have you read the entire dark elf trilogy, 14 or so books? Thiers some amazing feats in that series. No doubt cap is stronger but then again drizzt has never tried to fight a much stronger opponnent head on( i.e directly blocking a much stronger person) Yes, I actually have. Not sure if there have been published more in USA then Finland, but I have read all three books of The Dark Elf Trilogy, all three books of Icewind Trilogy, all four books in Legacy of the Drow, the four books in Paths of Darkness and the three books in The Hunter's Blades. One of the things I remember is that Artemis Entreri was quite equal with Drizzt before he got injured and older. And Entreri is a normal human. And even though the feats in all the books were good, none of them shows that Drizzt is better in any area then Cap. And the feats I have shown here are something like 7% of the stuff Cap has done in comics.

And in addition Cap being stronger, he also is equal or better in every other thing too.

One book is like saying Ive read 10 or 15 of caps comics. Its hardly a good measure of a character. Theres a lot of awsome feats there you havent read yet. You cant judge the whole cap vs. drizzt thing on the drizzt vs artemis stories. Theres several feats drizzt has done that overshadow artimis's. Anyway I highly suggest you read them thier really good reads you would probably like the series. Its great.

I have read them all.

My favorite book, but although Drizzt has feats that overshadow Artemis's, he has none that overshadow Cap's...while Cap has some that overshadow Drizzt's...

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
I have read them all.

My favorite book, but although Drizzt has feats that overshadow Artemis's, he has none that overshadow Cap's...while Cap has some that overshadow Drizzt's...

You are right on that, but still, the only reason of that is because caps been longer than drizzt (speaking of when they came out) and caps feats are in his world, let me see cap come to FR and piss off the dark elves, capn in the underdark......., wonder how long would he survive.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
I have read them all.

My favorite book, but although Drizzt has feats that overshadow Artemis's, he has none that overshadow Cap's...while Cap has some that overshadow Drizzt's...

Drizzt never got the Anklets/Bracers until after they (Young Entreri)fought, and Cattibrie got Cutter. After that the Drow War happened, and Drizzt went off a'wandering where he finally met up with Entreri for their final Duel.

You've read the books too so you know this as much as me, why misrepresent it?

Oh yeah, and the 2 cuts I was talking about were to his Stars and Stripes below

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Yes, I actually have. Not sure if there have been published more in USA then Finland, but I have read all three books of The Dark Elf Trilogy, all three books of Icewind Trilogy, all four books in Legacy of the Drow, the four books in Paths of Darkness and the three books in The Hunter's Blades. One of the things I remember is that Artemis Entreri was quite equal with Drizzt before he got injured and older. And Entreri is a normal human. And even though the feats in all the books were good, none of them shows that Drizzt is better in any area then Cap. And the feats I have shown here are something like 7% of the stuff Cap has done in comics.

And in addition Cap being stronger, he also is equal or better in every other thing too.

So of course he can fight blind better than a Drow Warrior who's been training like that for his entire life.

Pull the other one

OH yes, SMvsFL applies to Cap just as much as Spidey.

Originally posted by tyranus
You are right on that, but still, the only reason of that is because caps been longer than drizzt (speaking of when they came out) and caps feats are in his world, let me see cap come to FR and piss off the dark elves, capn in the underdark......., wonder how long would he survive. Longer then you think. He's fought many people while blind. Give him infrared vision, and he'd be able to own lot of elves.

Let me see Drizzt last longer then a panel against some of people Cap has fought...

Originally posted by Dalak
So of course he can fight blind better than a Drow Warrior who's been training like that for his entire life.



Well, fighting blind is something Drizzt is able to do better.

If anyone ever argues that Captain america would possible loose to daredevil, or black panther, but not realize that he could lose to Drizzt... thats just stupid, the guy is freaking awesome with his swords, + his magic, its his limited magic ability which I think gives him the edge, so I stand with it 6.5/10 for drizzt... man I wanna see this in a comic now!

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Well, fighting blind is something Drizzt is able to do better.

Still, I've given Scenarios where he can use that to his advantage, and EVERY fight can be blind, and the only point where I mentioned the Shield Cuts was after he threw it, Cap is good enough to guard that weakness in a fight.

Drizzt will know he's not as strong, as that is one of his frailties, so he'd take advantage of his speed advantage (Incredibly Fast + DOubling = Faster than Cap, though the level of it is arguable) and they would be leaping and dodging around every time, and Drizzt can leave a globe of darkness around every time he touches down again. Eventually Cap will have to thorw his shiled if he expects to get a hit in on Drizzt and then he's disarmed, as Drizzt can scatter various items around while throwing daggers at where cap was and most likely where he's headed as a distraction.

Then it's Drizzt's fight.

And as I said before, Cap will have some wins (this isn't a Stomp), but he will not win the Majority IMO

Prove that Drizzt is faster. Has he done something that shows that he is faster?

Until he has, he has no speed advantage.

And no freaking way will Drizzt cut the shield straps while it's in flight. It's way too fast for that, and seeing with the incredible skill it's thrown with...

bruenor>drizzt

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Prove that Drizzt is faster. Has he done something that shows that he is faster?

Until he has, he has no speed advantage.

And no freaking way will Drizzt cut the shield straps while it's in flight. It's way too fast for that, and seeing with the incredible skill it's thrown with...

Cap is a Peak Human like Batman only thx to the Juice he is more, but he's not Spiderman, nor should he be. Regardless ALL 3 defeat people they shouldn't.

If there was confirmation of the 90 degree running (which I can't remember myself) I'd ask if Cap had done anything like that.

Has he hopped from rock to rock running down an avalanche? And I think slashing down multiple arrows at once to be nice (2-3 in one slash in the Hunters Blades), and one of the closest thing he can get to bullets. I also belive during the Drow War he deflected some rock shards that were shrapnel from an explosion, and beat the striking heads of a snake Whip though I don't have the books on hand to verify.

Admittedly they aren't bullets, but just saying that they aren't isn't enough to prove that Cap is faster. And regardless of whether they are shooting guns or crossbows, using someone's weapon to hide from them shows that you are beating Human reflexes, and Drizzt did that before having his speed Doubled which you don't seem to care about.

DId the SSS make him more than double a peak human or did it make him slightly above peak human?

ICBM and keeping up with SHield is SMvsFL IMO, and apparently I'm not the only one to think so.

E: Oh yeah, What has skill to do with a thrown object once it's left the hand? And of course Drizzt hasn't slashed almost every missile weapon sent his way, unless in an overwhelming barrage.

Even if he cuts one strap that hinders Cap signifigantly.

Darkcrawler I misunderstood your post about reading them. Well everyone to thier own opinion but I dont think caps gonna win(I dont think he can counteract the magic) but I guess we'll never know.

He's clearly above peak human. He has kept up with Beast in agility, lifted 2200 pounds, ran with 60 mph per hour, blocked bullets and lasers with his shield...

As for shield throwing, lets try a bit of realism...because of the shape and vibranium in the shield, it has no air resistance at all. Even when it bounces from walls, it suffers no loss of velocity. thus making it fly probably as fast as baseball if it was thrown by professional baseball player. A baseball player flight speed record is something like 110 mph.

Since Cap is at least three times faster then the fastest human in the world in running, easily at least six times faster in blocking stuff then a human, and at least five times stronger then the strongest human in our world, I'd say he'd be able to throw that shield something like six times faster then a human would, making it go 500-600 mph, especially considering his unmatchable skill with it, give or take...

I don't think Drizzt would be able to cut anything from it, especially when considering that with those velocities, it has been thrown through trucks and hurt superhumans...if he'd try it, he'd probably get knocked out by it. His best bet would be probably dodge it, and in that case it would just effortlessly bound back to Cap's hands, and he could use it again.

He could also cut Drizzt's arms or head off with a shield throw if he wanted...he's cut through iron or things like robots with his shield before.

As for your hopping from one rock to another while in avalanche, I think these more then make up for it:
http://img118.imageshack.us/my.php?image=avengersv123518rougher4et.jpg
http://img140.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamericav1402ocd057ko.jpg
http://img306.imageshack.us/my.php?image=avengersv3005059vh.jpg

As for all your deflecting things, these pretty much beat them by a longshot:
http://img127.imageshack.us/my.php?image=avengersv3005065ur.jpg
http://img112.imageshack.us/my.php?image=avengers170043em.jpg
http://img225.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamerica267171fx.jpg

I have read every Drizzt appearance (excluding the "Best of..." shorts, I've only read the ones involving Artemis) and for the live of me I can't figure out how someone comes to the conclusion that Drizzt could even pose a thread to Captain America (or any established street level for that matter). The difference in levels of feats are astounding. Do people not see how flawed it is to assume that all different mediums have the same ideas of superhuman and peak human - That because Captain America is the best fighter in Marvel... Drizzt must be his equal because he is the best in Abeir-Toril (which he isn't by the way)?

There is little evidence to support that he is even Caps equal in strength or speed while the evidence in Cap's favour is overwhelming. How much use is a globe of darkness going to be? Combatants have basic knowledge of their enemy so Cap knows to expect the globe and even if he didn't it would only be good to surprise Cap for a brief moment.

I like Drizzt much, much more then Cap (as a Canadian he isn't a very appealing character) but honestly Cap would walk all over him in a fight.

By the way Drizzt anklets only improve his running speed; which is good because when you are fighting a guy who can run 60mph you certainly need a boost.

According to the one article I read on Drizzt, it said he's so quick on his feet because he wears some speed bracers on his ankles instead of his arms because he couldn't control his swings at such high speeds and he values the footwork more.

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
According to the one article I read on Drizzt, it said he's so quick on his feet because he wears some speed bracers on his ankles instead of his arms because he couldn't control his swings at such high speeds and he values the footwork more. cap dodges quicksilver...

Originally posted by King KAM
cap dodges quicksilver...

As if it were his job.

My interpretation of Captain America's stats.

Base Attack Bonus: 20 + 6 for strength + 2 for weapon and greater weapon specialization. for a total of +28
Armor Class bonus: 10 + 6 + 10 for a total of +26

Strength: 22 (He tosses a 20 lb object hundreds of yards, and wears heavy chainmail all day and night)
Dexterity: 22 (Guy dodges Bullets)
Constitution: 15
Intelligence: 10 (not exceptionally smart.. i mean he did sign up for untesting medical experiments... come on now..)
Wisdom: 14
Charisma: 20 (He leads the Avengers)
Fortitude Save +12
Reflex Save +24 (guy avoids hits from the hulk/thor/quicksilver)
Will Save +10 (Hes good, but he's still been mindcontrolled before)

Captain America holds a Relic. Shield of Returning +10. This shield grants the wield the ability to use the spell TrueStrike 1/day as a free action. The bonus only applies when throwing the shield. Also similar to a hammer of returning, the shield will automatically return to the wielder's hand on any natural roll greater than 5. Shield damage when thrown is 1d12 +10 crit bonus is x 3/18-20 . (Since Captain America has the Critical Feat with shields, the bonus increases to (15-20)

The captain wears gauntlets of missile deflection. Elven Chainmail +5. Boots of Speed.

I recall Wulfgars strength being 25 and IMO Captain America is stronger then him. Nice work though rotiart.

Used to play d&d for the longest time. And i honestly don't have my handbooks on me. i haven't looked at one in a year, and i'm going from memory for 3.5. but yah, if Wulfgar is 25, Cap should be 25 too.

Can you imagine Cap in a d&d campaign? Thor went insane. I just beat the crap outta him. How much experience points do i get for beating up a god?

Wulfgar was the strength of a hill giant, it was 19 in the old system, probably is 25 in the new system. I first started playing in 1983 in think it was? It was basic not long after the white box.

I have no experience with anything before 3rd Edition... /cry

You ought to try 2nd, its a little more complicated but makes for a more in depth game I think. Basic was "to" basic compared to the others. Ive got the 3rd edition stuff, I like it ok but I dont understand why they changed everyones levels from the earlier system?? Dosnt make sense.

I like each system respectively. To me either system works, as long as you have the right materials. To me it feels like you need a gridmap and actually pieces to play 3rd edition, which is probably what they wanted since WOTC sells so many miniatures right now. In any case the game is only played well with a great dm, and good players. The dm has to be the most imaginiative person and charismatic member of your group.
WOTC created 3rd edition to make money. plain and simple.

BTW, cap still wins this fight 7/10. In D&D most fights are won by who has the cooler gear. Drizzt has magic Items... but Essentially cap America has an artifact... drizzt has toothpicks.

Originally posted by rotiart
I like each system respectively. To me either system works, as long as you have the right materials. To me it feels like you need a gridmap and actually pieces to play 3rd edition, which is probably what they wanted since WOTC sells so many miniatures right now. In any case the game is only played well with a great dm, and good players. The dm has to be the most imaginiative person and charismatic member of your group.
WOTC created 3rd edition to make money. plain and simple.

Agreed, espically the money part. I knew it would happen sadly, they did the same thing with magic the gathering after and around the time of 2nd edition/mirage era.

Originally posted by rotiart
BTW, cap still wins this fight 7/10. In D&D most fights are won by who has the cooler gear. Drizzt has magic Items... but Essentially cap America has an artifact... drizzt has toothpicks.
We will just have to agree and disagree on that I think with the skill, the equipment and spells he could win and dont forget drizzt can cast spells to(to a smaller degree I know but Im sure some of them would be very helpful)

Originally posted by MJOILNIR
We will just have to agree and disagree on that I think with the skill, the equipment and spells he could win and dont forget drizzt can cast spells to(to a smaller degree I know but Im sure some of them would be very helpful)

Indeed, but casting a spell would draw an AoO .

Haha, I haven't played that stuff in YEARS, I have both 3e and 2e material, but I got out of it before 3.5 was even a thought on the horizon.

Anyway, and if you want to classify Captain America as a D&D character, he would probably be a high level fighter Paragon Human.

God I feel like a geek for even using the words "Paragon" or "AoO," but then again, I'm on a comic book message board, so what am I to expect? Heh.

Oh, and for the people who may be looking for quick, easy, or whatever type of games (3rd or 2nd edition), www.playbyweb.com is a pretty good resource. Haven't been there in years, either, but if it is anything like it used to be.

Haha, I used to have a group, AND play online, and I powergamed every where. :-P.

i can't remember the rules on racial abilities... since its been so long. I think the actually class for Captain is called a shield bearer. i was looking in a book a while ago, i can't remember the actual title of the class though. but yah.

Btw i forgot to mention
Captain America's god is named Lady Liberty..
and he is her chosen...

You know whats funny, Im a big country boy, hunt, fish live on a farm everything and I played it for years, lol you should see some of the looks I got from my friends and relatives. hahahah

D&D is before my time...

Well my girlfriend calls me a geek, my sister says i'm a nerd, and almost everyone calls me a dork.... so yah.

Meh, if he is a 'shield bearer,' he damn well better be a paragon shield bearer :-D.

My sister is a graphic arts major and my wifes favorite movie is "cant by me love" so they dont have a right to call me a geek Besides like I said Im a country boy and work in a max security federal pen(DCT) so I dont look the part anyway Underecover geek I guess

Captain Crunch wins!

Nay count chokula.....

.......

I came to check how the thread was doing, and i found it had somewhat deviated.

Anyway, cokie crisp wins.

Well its kinda one of those no ones giving an inch type of things, lol

eff all that, i got my money on Snap,Crackle,and Pop

Actually i was making fun, by saying the captain wins.. but suddenly got in the mood for some cereal. my fault. still mr. america wins. Even if cap needed some more magical items to pump himself even further... all he has to do is say.. thor.. buddy... that guys got magic stuff... lemme borrow your belt, gloves, boots and hammer.. In d&d terms, he gets the gauntlets of ogre power+ 2, girdle of giant strength +6, boots of the north, and the hammer of thunderbolts...

No, in D&D terms, he gets the artifacts that Thor carries. Check out the old book Dieties and Demigods, he's in there :-P.

I haven't played 2nd edition in about 7 years. i threw out all my books when i graduated hs. but yah. don't forget caps on good terms with dr. strange...

Thats a shame, even if I dont play I dont throw books away. You can sell some of the older stuff for a lot of money. A buddy of mine got 500$ for one of the chain mail box sets. Im a pack rat, I got field and stream mag's from the early 80's.

Eh. After my ex fiancee broke up with me, i took the engagement ring i bought her, valued at almost 2400 when i bought it, and sold it to a pawn shop for about $125. I don't care much for emotional attachments to artificial constructs.

Ah like I said Im a pack rat, Im a gun collector to so it comes natural. Ive got plenty of room so I just keep it, not everything mind you but a lot. I give a lot of stuff like that away to young kids who cant afford it to.

You give guns away to young kids? Oh dear god, you must be from texas.

Ha ha but no, I do help teach firearm safety classes to kids though

tyrannus I apologive for junking up your thread with useless prattle. I didnt realize till know what I was doing, my bad.

Back on Topic, Cap faces guys that are all about the showy offensive style all the time. Cap BEATS down guys like bullseye, taskmaster, Daredevil. He is not going to lose to Drizzt.

Originally posted by rotiart
Back on Topic, Cap faces guys that are all about the showy offensive style all the time. Cap BEATS down guys like bullseye, taskmaster, Daredevil. He is not going to lose to Drizzt.

Showy offensive style??

Drizzt is perfect in offense and defense, hes covered all the time in both grounds, i think he will give caps a run for his money

Originally posted by tyranus
Showy offensive style??

Drizzt is perfect in offense and defense, hes covered all the time in both grounds, i think he will give caps a run for his money

I've decided to agree to disagree.

Bruenor>Drizzt.

Tasselhoff (yes i know wrong realm) >> all Forgotten realm characters.

Originally posted by rotiart
Tasselhoff (yes i know wrong realm) >> all Forgotten realm characters.
tasselhoof is cool, but he get destroyed by bruenor or drizzt or wulfgar or cat. or the panther