Is being bisexual a sin?

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Leo.M
You're not gay, but you're also not straight. Is that a sin in God's eyes? Is it wrong to like both men and women? confused

Captain REX
Probably. *shrug* Hell if I know. Ask Jesus.

Leo.M
I did, but he won't answer my prey's disgust

Nazgulinthedark
Originally posted by Leo.M
You're not gay, but you're also not straight. Is that a sin in God's eyes? Is it wrong to like both men and women? confused

No, it's not like a person chooses to be gay or lesbian or bisexual, so why would it be a sin? the definition of a sin is something that you knowingly chose to do that is immoral or whatever.

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by Leo.M
You're not gay, but you're also not straight. Is that a sin in God's eyes? Is it wrong to like both men and women? confused Yes... it's greedy...

Echuu
Originally posted by Nazgulinthedark
No, it's not like a person chooses to be gay or lesbian or bisexual,

That's debatable.

NineCoronas
Originally posted by Echuu
That's debatable.

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by Echuu
That's debatable. Originally posted by NineCoronas
Yes it's debatable in the sense that it's able to be debated. Is there actual reasoning behind purporting people choose their sexuality? Not really. It's mainly irrational prejudice.

Quiero Mota
Originally posted by Leo.M
You're not gay, but you're also not straight. Is that a sin in God's eyes? Is it wrong to like both men and women? confused

I guess they're teetering very close to sin.

Echuu
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Is there actual reasoning behind purporting people choose their sexuality? Not really. It's mainly irrational prejudice.

Ever read 1984 by George Orwell? I'll use that as an example. If you keep cramming ideas into your mind, no matter how far off from your beliefs, you can get it so engrained into you mind that it becomes 'reality.'

I'm not prejudice by the way.

xmarksthespot
"The act or state of holding unreasonable preconceived judgments or convictions." is a pretty apt description of holding a view that people, be they hetero-, homo- or bi-sexual choose their sexuality.

You think homosexuals and bisexuals have homosexuality and bisexuality, respectively, "crammed into their minds"? Sexuality isn't a "belief".

Draco69
It depends on the definition of homosexuality people subscribe to. Either:

A) Homosexuality is the act of sexual relations with a person of one's own gender.

B) Homosexuality is the sexual attraction to one's own gender.

If you're in Camp A, than you're gonna think it's a choice. If you're Camp B, you're gonna think it's not a choice.

It's really just a disagreement on the definition of homosexuality and moreover sexual orientation.

Echuu
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
You think homosexuals and bisexuals have homosexuality and bisexuality, respectively, "crammed into their minds"? Sexuality isn't a "belief".

Sorry if I sounded a little too strong.

Still, take my reasoning(1984) for a different topic and it does make sense doesn't it?

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by Draco69
It depends on the definition of homosexuality people subscribe to. Either:

A) Homosexuality is the act of sexual relations with a person of one's own gender.

B) Homosexuality is the sexual attraction to one's own gender.

If you're in Camp A, than you're gonna think it's a choice. If you're Camp B, you're gonna think it's not a choice.

It's really just a disagreement on the definition of homosexuality and moreover sexual orientation. There are those who believe B) to be chosen...Originally posted by Echuu
Sorry if I sounded a little too strong.

Still, take my reasoning(1984) for a different topic and it does make sense doesn't it? Riddle me this: Do you think you can make a homosexual turn straight by forcefeeding him\her straight porn? Or getting them to have sex with the opposite gender? Likewise vice versa for heterosexuals.

Draco69
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
There are those who believe B) to be chosen...

Yeah. And they're contradictory. Either they don't understand the meaning of sexual attraction, they're being stubborn, or they're actually in Camp A but they don't know it.

You can't choose your sexual attraction any more than you can choose to be hungry or to be thirsty.

You CAN choose to have relations with a man or woman, or eat sryrofoam or drink bile, even though you don't WANT to. Watch Fear Factor, for example. sick

I just think people need to reclarify what the definition of homosexuality is. Like in a dictionary or something.

Echuu
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Riddle me this: Do you think you can make a homosexual turn straight by forcefeeding him\her straight porn? Or getting them to have sex with the opposite gender? Likewise vice versa for heterosexuals.

You never answered my question.

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by Echuu
You never answered my question. Elaborate on your question...?

Echuu
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Elaborate on your question...?

Basically take my reasoning from above. Use it on a different topic.

i.e. I want to make someone believe they are a horrible person. Or that they are godlike, or as in the world of 1984 the economy is supposedly doing better every year even though the evidence clearly shows otherwise.


As for your question: It may be possible but I wouldn't know because I doubt it has ever been tried.

NineCoronas
Originally posted by Echuu
Ever read 1984 by George Orwell? I'll use that as an example. If you keep cramming ideas into your mind, no matter how far off from your beliefs, you can get it so engrained into you mind that it becomes 'reality.'

I'm not prejudice by the way. I.E. brainwashing.

Originally posted by Draco69
Yeah. And they're contradictory. Either they don't understand the meaning of sexual attraction, they're being stubborn, or they're actually in Camp A but they don't know it.

You can't choose your sexual attraction any more than you can choose to be hungry or to be thirsty.

You CAN choose to have relations with a man or woman, or eat sryrofoam or drink bile, even though you don't WANT to. Watch Fear Factor, for example. sick

I just think people need to reclarify what the definition of homosexuality is. Like in a dictionary or something. No, you have it all wrong. You see, people that believe people don't choose their sexuality don't understand the meaning of sexual attraction, , are being stubborn, or are actually in camp band just don't know it.

no expression

Draco69
Originally posted by Echuu


As for your question: It may be possible but I wouldn't know because I doubt it has ever been tried.

Actually, that's largely what they do in "conversion" programs for "ex-gays." They've been doing it for the last 60 years with no success...at least not according to them. THEY say they have a 99% (why is always that number...?) success rate, but reliable sources like the American Psychiatric Association as well as the Harvard Medical School balk at these techniques and often quote that psychologically damages the homosexuals they try to "convert" through straight porn and lots of Hail Marys....yeah that doesn't make sense to me either.

Most "ex-gays" who "successfully" complete the program off the bat say they are not gay anymore. However the median of coming to terms that they were frauded is about 4 months to a year depending on the intensity of the program.

In actuality, the program just taught them to repress and ignore their sexual desires as one would ignore the need to pee during the SATs....

Draco69
Originally posted by NineCoronas


No, you have it all wrong. You see, people that believe people don't choose their sexuality don't understand the meaning of sexual attraction, , are being stubborn, or are actually in camp band just don't know it.

no expression

What is YOUR definition of sexual attraction then? Choose your words carefully.

I would also get a reliable source to back it up.

Alliance
If you asked for a personal defintion, why would you need sources to back it up erm

Echuu
Originally posted by Draco69
Actually, that's largely what they do in "conversion" programs for "ex-gays." They've been doing it for the last 60 years with no success...at least not according to them. THEY say they have a 99% (why is always that number...?) success rate, but reliable sources like the American Psychiatric Association as well as the Harvard Medical School balk at these techniques and often quote that psychologically damages the homosexuals they try to "convert" through straight porn and lots of Hail Marys....yeah that doesn't make sense to me either.

Most "ex-gays" who "successfully" complete the program off the bat say they are not gay anymore. However the median of coming to terms that they were frauded is about 4 months to a year depending on the intensity of the program.

In actuality, the program just taught them to repress and ignore their sexual desires as one would ignore the need to pee during the SATs....

Hmm. Didn't know that. Interesting. I don't care for Catholic methods of conversion/treatment/w/e/etc.

Draco69
Originally posted by Echuu
Ever read 1984 by George Orwell? I'll use that as an example. If you keep cramming ideas into your mind, no matter how far off from your beliefs, you can get it so engrained into you mind that it becomes 'reality.'

I'm not prejudice by the way.

Brainwashing? By whom? When? How? Why? Proof? Source?

Your theory is unsubstantiated and falls into the realm of philosophy rather than something that can be proven.

Also it's rather enthnocentric, which is why I disagree when people say people chose to be gay because they wanted to be alternative or individualistic. Homosexuality is seen in all cultures, all countries and all races. If homosexuality is a conscious choice, what is the UNIVERSAL precedent for making that choice? In your case, what UNIVERSAL idea or reason for using the said idea to make oneself homosexual?

It can't be answered. Because what's right for ONE culture will fly in the face of another thus nullifying any theory that could possibly arise.


Here's an interesting test they did in Sweden:

Twelve men were selected under the pretense that they were to be involved in experiment to test one's heartrate when playing video games.

Six were straight. Six were gay.

They were all of course lied too. They had all sorts of fancy equipment hooked up to them to gauge their sexual arousal while they were playing Resident Evil and such.

For the six straight men, they injected female pheromones (i.e. sweat minus the foul odour; completely undetectable by humans except for their bodies nervous systems) into the room while they played the video games. Naturally, the scientists detected rising sexual arousal in correlation to the rising amount of female pheromones pumped into the room. For the male phermones, they had little to no reaction.

For the six gay men, they injected female pheromones (i.e. sweat minus the foul odour; completely undetectable by humans except for their bodies nervous systems) into the room while they played the video games. HOWEVER, they had little to no reaction to the phermones. When they added the male phermones, as you might of guessed, they witnessed ising sexual arousal in correlation to the rising amount of male pheromones pumped into the room.

Based on your "Orwell" theory, how would you explain this?

Draco69
Originally posted by Alliance
If you asked for a personal defintion, why would you need sources to back it up erm

Same reason for when your teacher asks for references when you write a essay or disseration....

confused

Alliance
There is a difference between asking for a scholarly opinion and a personal one.

Draco69
Originally posted by Alliance
There is a difference between asking for a scholarly opinion and a personal one.

You USE a scholarly opinion to support your personal one....

Like you use a book on animals, to support your opinion that dolphins have souls....

Draco69
Good Night, y'all!

As for the "is it a sin?" question. Yeah, according to most faiths it's sin.

Of course you can have a different perspective on a faith which murks the issue causing yet another war in the Middle East...

Jigsaw13
In the bible it says very clearly "man shall not lay with man" so yes, yes it is a sin if your sleeping with the same sex. If sleeping with the same sex makes you happy, go for it.

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by Echuu
All gays are brainwashed into being gay... no expression

Draco69
Originally posted by Echuu
Hmm. Didn't know that. Interesting. I don't care for Catholic methods of conversion/treatment/w/e/etc.

Actually it's not Catholic (although some are...), it's mostly Baptist, Protestant, Mormon and largely Evangelical method of conversion.

The Catholic Church has an official stance on homosexuality as it is. They recognize and admit that homosexuality cannot be chosen but remain antagonistic to the act of gay sex which they view as a sin. So for homosexuals to remain on the "good side" of God they have to be completely celibate. No kissing, no hugging, and no sex with members of your own gender.

Many gays appreciate the Catholic Church showing some progress of toleration against homosexuals...however they aren't thrilled with the idea of having the proverbial status of an eunuch with leprosy.

Echuu
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
no expression

I never directly stated that. Others have though. Don't put words into my mouth.
Oh and you still haven't answered my question.




As for what Draco69 said; In reference to brainwashing I wanted to bring out more of the battle for the mind. Not necessarily brainwashing from a government body, but I thought it would be an example.

I'm trying to talk about what mainstream society is saying.
For example...a teen has had a few sexual thoughts about men in the last week. He doesn't normally think this way. He hears what the general opinion is on homosexuality and thinks "oh I must be gay because I was born that way." And so he goes on thinking this and becomes gay because he 'chose' to do so because he thought he was born that way.

I think a lot of people become gay just because they think they are born that way if they ever think about someone of the opposite sex.

Draco69
Originally posted by Echuu


I'm trying to talk about what mainstream society is saying. For example...a teen has had a few sexual thoughts about men in the last week. He doesn't normally think this way. He hears what the general opinion is on homosexuality and thinks "oh I must be gay because I was born that way." And so he goes on thinking this and becomes gay because he 'chose' to do so because he thought he was born that way.

I think a lot of people become gay just because they think they are born that way if they ever think about someone of the opposite sex.

You mean WESTERN mainstream society. Chinese culture believes that homosexuality is a frowned upon choice. Russia believe it's a fetish. Mexico considers it a griveous sin. Brazil outright believes it doesn't exist.

It's flawed reasoning.

Take Muslim society for example. In Egypt, outed gay men are stoned to death and are portrayed as "imperialist propaganda destroying their the foundations of their faith" In THEIR mainstream society, homosexuality is a GROSS sin and it is most certainly a choice in direct violation to the tenets set by Allah himself through Mohmmed.

Yet gay men exist in Muslim society. They KNOW they will likely get stoned to death. They KNOW they will suffer unimaginable pain from Allah in the afterlife. And they KNOW it is not a choice but a path towards sin and debauchery. Yet they're still gay.

Why? Your theory of "mainstream society" brainwashing teenagers into homosexuality clearly doesn't work in Muslim society. Indeed, it only applies to western, middle-class, white society in a liberal environment.

It fails to apply different races, cultures, religions and different countries.

Hell it doesn't work for the past also. Gay people existed in the past. Walt Whitman was gay. HIS society certainly didn't say "gays are born gay." Alexander the Great was gay. HIS society didn't say that either.

Your theory is flawed because it only attempts to explain the cause of homosexuality in western, liberal, white, middle-class, present, society in teenagers.

Echuu
Originally posted by Draco69
It's flawed reasoning.

Not really. I didn't say all gays are gay because of that.

And even so, applying my theory to western culture only, do you think it makes sense?

Draco69
Originally posted by Echuu
Not really. I didn't say all gays are gay because of that.

And even so, applying my theory to western culture only, do you think it makes sense?

No. Despite the fact that it fails to be universal to all races and cultures in America, it's flawed for another reason:

If mainstream society is 'brainswashing' teens into 'thinking' they are gay, we would have seen a substantial increase of gays in America. However since the 70s it's remained at a steady 5 to 10% of the population.

By your theory, if gays are becoming more mainstream we would see a correlation to gay population growth. And we haven't.

Also, you fail to implement the basis of sexual attractions. A teen does get bi-curious over the years due to budding sexuality and sexual orientation as a result of budding sexuality. However even if a teen does take a fancy at men once in while and his thoughts are primarily women, than he's going to think he's straight (he is..) Gay teens on the other hand have almost exclusive sexual thoughts of men.

It just doesn't work that way.

Echuu
Originally posted by Draco69
No. Despite the fact that it fails to be universal to all races and cultures in America, it's flawed for another reason:

If mainstream society is 'brainswashing' teens into 'thinking' they are gay, we would have seen a substantial increase of gays in America. However since the 70s it's remained at a steady 5 to 10% of the population.

By your theory, if gays are becoming more mainstream we would see a correlation to gay population growth. And we haven't.

Also, you fail to implement the basis of sexual attractions. A teen does get bi-curious over the years due to budding sexuality and sexual orientation as a result of budding sexuality. However even if a teen does take a fancy at men once in while and his thoughts are primarily women, than he's going to think he's straight (he is..) Gay teens on the other hand have almost exclusive sexual thoughts of men.

It just doesn't work that way.

Well whatever. I still never said brainwashing. Just a thought I had on the matter. Oh well.

Draco69
*shrugs*

Personally, I think it's (as with most things in the world) a slash of nature with a dash of nurture.

debbiejo
Haven't read through the whole thread again. embarrasment But what if someone was born with both sexual organs.......male and female??

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by Echuu
I never directly stated that. Others have though. Don't put words into my mouth.
Oh and you still haven't answered my question.Could you restate your question...

Echuu
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Could you restate your question...

Already did.

xmarksthespot
Well I can't be bothered wading through posts. Was it something along the lines of "homosexual conditioning" resulting in homosexuality - with regards to attraction not sexual intercourse.

Eis
I don't really understand what the big deal is, genetic or result of upbringing. The important question is: Is it wrong? And obviously the only answer is, no. At least for us whose lives are not controlled by a deity.

One thing we all know for sure it's not a choice, it might be a result of upbringing but what's wrong with that? There are many things about ourselves that are a result of our upbringing. And if homo/bisexuality is indeed a result of our upbringing then so is heterosexuality.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Draco69
It depends on the definition of homosexuality people subscribe to. Either:

A) Homosexuality is the act of sexual relations with a person of one's own gender.

B) Homosexuality is the sexual attraction to one's own gender.

If you're in Camp A, than you're gonna think it's a choice. If you're Camp B, you're gonna think it's not a choice.

It's really just a disagreement on the definition of homosexuality and moreover sexual orientation.

B is the correct definition.

There are gay and bisexual virgins. You cannot deny thier existance, so how the hell would Definition A fit?

Eis
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
B is the correct definition.

There are gay and bisexual virgins. You cannot deny thier existance, so how the hell would Definition A fit?
How would definition A fit? Everyone being asexual until they have sexual intercouse. But it is of course a faulty logic...

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Eis
How would definition A fit? Everyone being asexual until they have sexual intercouse. But it is of course a faulty logic...

Right but if everyone is asexual before they have sex, then that means that there are no such things as straight virgins, gay virgins, or bisexual virgins.

As is a virgin's sexual orientation and desire is shaped by thier experiences.

This is totally absurd, because a Virgin is already aware of his or her own desire before having sex.

autumn dreams
Originally posted by Leo.M
You're not gay, but you're also not straight. Is that a sin in God's eyes? Is it wrong to like both men and women? confused

I like to think that God/Jesus wouldn't care what you are, so long as you are happy.

Isn't a persons happiness all that matters? roll eyes (sarcastic)

docb77
Being something isn't a sin. (except maybe being sinful?)

A sin is an action. Therefore only actions can be sins. Any Sexual act outside of marriage (definition: union of man and woman) is a sin. (Ironically inside of marriage it pretty much becomes a commandment)

A Bisexual who had mastered him/herself would not be committing said sexual sins. Anyone who sleeps with more than one individual is by definition (the christian one anyway) committing sin. Add to that that Biblically sexual contact with the same sex (homo-sexuality) is strictly forbidden.

So a bi-sexual may be prone to sin, but being bi-sexual isn't automatically a sin.

And no, happiness isn't all that matters, there's also Justice and Mercy. God wouldn't really be just if He just let anyone do whatever they wanted now would he?

Eis
Originally posted by docb77
Being something isn't a sin. (except maybe being sinful?)

A sin is an action. Therefore only actions can be sins. Any Sexual act outside of marriage (definition: union of man and woman) is a sin. (Ironically inside of marriage it pretty much becomes a commandment)

A Bisexual who had mastered him/herself would not be committing said sexual sins. Anyone who sleeps with more than one individual is by definition (the christian one anyway) committing sin. Add to that that Biblically sexual contact with the same sex (homo-sexuality) is strictly forbidden.

So a bi-sexual may be prone to sin, but being bi-sexual isn't automatically a sin.

And no, happiness isn't all that matters, there's also Justice and Mercy. God wouldn't really be just if He just let anyone do whatever they wanted now would he?
Do you personally believe homosexuality/bisexuallity is wrong? If you do, do you have any arguments to support your personal opinion? (Other than of course "THE BIBLE SAYS SO!!!11" and "ITS NOT NATURAL, THEY CANT REPRODUCE, K!!???"wink

docb77
Originally posted by Eis
Do you personally believe homosexuality/bisexuallity is wrong? If you do, do you have any arguments to support your personal opinion? (Other than of course "THE BIBLE SAYS SO!!!11" and "ITS NOT NATURAL, THEY CANT REPRODUCE, K!!???"wink

I believe I said somewhere in there that I was speaking from a Christian perspective. Could have sworn I made that disclaimer at least once. And seeing as how this is a "religion forum", I assumed that was a valid position to argue from. I couldn't say what religions outside of the Judeo-Christian/Muslim paradigm think of homosexuality, but in those sets of beliefs homosexuality is considered wrong. I suppose that whether or not you personally consider it wrong would depend on which faith you subscribe to. Whether or not God considers it wrong is completely independent of either yours or my beliefs.


By the way, what kind of evidence are you looking for there? Here's an easy one - give me that kind of evidence for murder (I assume we both agree that that is wrong) being wrong. I'll see what I can do for you once I understand what you are looking for.

Alliance
Originally posted by Eis
ITS NOT NATURAL

You what else isnt natural?

1. Women a house of (insert your favorite god's name) without their faces covered.

2. Black people and white people drinking out of the same water fountain.

3. Divorce.

4. Life support.

5...etc

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by docb77
Being something isn't a sin. (except maybe being sinful?)

A sin is an action. Therefore only actions can be sins. Any Sexual act outside of marriage (definition: union of man and woman) is a sin. (Ironically inside of marriage it pretty much becomes a commandment)

A Bisexual who had mastered him/herself would not be committing said sexual sins. Anyone who sleeps with more than one individual is by definition (the christian one anyway) committing sin. Add to that that Biblically sexual contact with the same sex (homo-sexuality) is strictly forbidden.

So a bi-sexual may be prone to sin, but being bi-sexual isn't automatically a sin.

And no, happiness isn't all that matters, there's also Justice and Mercy. God wouldn't really be just if He just let anyone do whatever they wanted now would he?


Murder is wrong, because you are violating someone's rights and free will by taking away thier life, especially without thier consent.

Homosexual Activity is not wrong, because it is action between two or more consenting adults/teenagers, who know what they are doing, and are not hurting each other. It's only immoral is RAPE is involved.

Homosexuality is just as immoral as heterosexuality.....having sex without the intention of having a child, having sex either for displaying love or lust, having sex simply for pleasure...

I don't see what the actual moral difference is? As long as no one is being violated or harmed, than what's the evil?

Alliance
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Homosexual Activity is not wrong, because it is action between two or more consenting adults/teenagers, who know what they are doing, and are not hurting each other. It's only immoral is RAPE is involved.
and might I add underage sex

docb77
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Murder is wrong, because you are violating someone's rights and free will by taking away thier life, especially without thier consent.

Homosexual Activity is not wrong, because it is action between two or more consenting adults/teenagers, who know what they are doing, and are not hurting each other. It's only immoral is RAPE is involved.

Homosexuality is just as immoral as heterosexuality.....having sex without the intention of having a child, having sex either for displaying love or lust, having sex simply for pleasure...

I don't see what the actual moral difference is? As long as no one is being violated or harmed, than what's the evil?

So is interfering with someone else's rights the only way something can be wrong? What about recreational drugs when you're by yourself, or speeding when there's no one else on the road?

Alliance
Bisexuality is not a health hazzard.

Regret
Originally posted by Alliance
Bisexuality is not a health hazzard.

Unless your wife finds out. eek!

Alliance
Threesomes are not health hazzards eek!

Regret
I don't know where you're from, but I don't know many women who would consider a threesome not hazardous to her husbands health.

Alliance
opinons and fact are often different.

its all about reproductive competition

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by docb77
So is interfering with someone else's rights the only way something can be wrong? What about recreational drugs when you're by yourself, or speeding when there's no one else on the road?


1) Recreational drugs and speeding have nothing to do with the issue of Bisexuality, can you stay on topic please?

2) You didn't actually COUNTER my point. You simply tried to answer my point by changing the subject, and that is the poorest way to do such a thing.

3) Counter my points directly, or don't bother debating with me. Thanks.

docb77
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
1) Recreational drugs and speeding have nothing to do with the issue of Bisexuality, can you stay on topic please?

2) You didn't actually COUNTER my point. You simply tried to answer my point by changing the subject, and that is the poorest way to do such a thing.

3) Counter my points directly, or don't bother debating with me. Thanks.


Actually I wasn't changing the subject. I was trying to clarify your answer to my question. Is the only criteria for something being wrong whether or not it infringes on the inherent rights of someone else, or are some things inherently wrong?

SP90
Everything that is seen by the pope and his pals as "sexual deviance" is (for them) sin and immoral and should be punished. The church has no right to choose what you do of your personnal life, it is supposed to be useful guidance, take the elements you want and leave those that you think are bad.

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by docb77
Actually I wasn't changing the subject. I was trying to clarify your answer to my question. Is the only criteria for something being wrong whether or not it infringes on the inherent rights of someone else, or are some things inherently wrong? Nothing is inherently wrong, although things may be considered so by people.

autumn dreams
Originally posted by Alliance
You what else isnt natural?

2. Black people and white people drinking out of the same water fountain.

I do hope you are not serious... confused


Originally posted by Alliance
4. Life support.

Keep in mind that a fetus relys on the mother to survive-therefore a woman provides life support to a fetus.


This is only if you were actually serious about your claims, which I doubt you were.

Eis
Originally posted by docb77
I believe I said somewhere in there that I was speaking from a Christian perspective. Could have sworn I made that disclaimer at least once. And seeing as how this is a "religion forum", I assumed that was a valid position to argue from. I couldn't say what religions outside of the Judeo-Christian/Muslim paradigm think of homosexuality, but in those sets of beliefs homosexuality is considered wrong. I suppose that whether or not you personally consider it wrong would depend on which faith you subscribe to. Whether or not God considers it wrong is completely independent of either yours or my beliefs.


By the way, what kind of evidence are you looking for there? Here's an easy one - give me that kind of evidence for murder (I assume we both agree that that is wrong) being wrong. I'll see what I can do for you once I understand what you are looking for.
I don't claim murder is wrong. I think, in my non-important personal opinion, that it is wrong but there is no universal set of morals, so muder technically isn't wrong.

docb77
Originally posted by Eis
I don't claim murder is wrong. I think, in my non-important personal opinion, that it is wrong but there is no universal set of morals, so muder technically isn't wrong.

I have no way to argue logically with this kind of moral ambuguity.

What I can say is that if you ascribe to a religion, meaning that you believe it to be of God, then you have to accept the whole thing. If your religion says that something is a sin, then it should be regarded as such. If you aren't religious, what does it matter what other people think of you?

Alliance
Originally posted by autumn dreams
I do hope you are not serious... confused

I'm very serious. The EXACT SAME (religous and political) arguments are being used against desegregation are being used against homosexuality.

docb77
Originally posted by Alliance
I'm very serious. The EXACT SAME (religous and political) arguments are being used against desegregation are being used against homosexuality.

You realize, don't you that most blacks reject this comparison.

Alliance
Yes, unfortunately...

1. That doesnt change what was said (I should specify white Christians).

2. Just because people choose to forget, doesn't mean it never existed.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by docb77
Actually I wasn't changing the subject. I was trying to clarify your answer to my question. Is the only criteria for something being wrong whether or not it infringes on the inherent rights of someone else, or are some things inherently wrong?

I believe that Morality is both subjective AND intuitive. Maybe that answers your question better. I beleive true morality to be an evolutionary way that we as human beings better socialize, to promote the flourishing of our species.

I beleive Morality is all about how we treat each other. Not who we worship, what book we beleive in, or what rules we follow.


I also find it very possible that homosexuality may be an evolutionary development that helps limit the population. This makes so much sense to me, as seeing how Nature already uses other methods to limit population (famine, disease, the food chain)...homosexuality seems like the kindest way to limit population.


Murder is morally wrong because you are taking away one's life without thier permission. I can go on and on about this, but why bother? We both think it's wrong obviously.


However, let me clarify my stance on what is evil to you: TO ME...there are three true evils...Inflicting on another person:

1) Death

2) Torture

3) Control



Anything that falls under these categories is automatically evil to me. Now ofcourse, with DEATH, i beleive there are few exceptions. I beleive there are even fewer exceptions with Torture and Control, if any exist at all.





Homosexuality does not fall onto inflicting any of these three things. Homosexuality is simply the mutual sexuality activity between two consenting human beings of the same gender.

How is it evil?

It's not to me....it's only "sinful" because your religion says so. I beleive your religious perspective here to be false and invalid. My apologies, but that is my stance.

autumn dreams
Originally posted by Alliance
I'm very serious. The EXACT SAME (religous and political) arguments are being used against desegregation are being used against homosexuality.

I am shocked and horrified that religions actually preach this garbage! sick

Alliance
What do you intend to do about it?

Esaul
Originally posted by autumn dreams
I am shocked and horrified that religions actually preach this garbage! sick
This "garbage" is what people believe in, and you have to be respectful about that.

Alliance
A belief is not a free pass to go and $200.

SP90
Originally posted by Lord Urizen

However, let me clarify my stance on what is evil to you: TO ME...there are three true evils...Inflicting on another person:

1) Death

2) Torture

3) Control

Anything that falls under these categories is automatically evil to me. Now ofcourse, with DEATH, i beleive there are few exceptions. I beleive there are even fewer exceptions with Torture and Control, if any exist at all.


And this can be simplified as : "What limits freedom is evil." Freedom is the most important thing, when someone dies, you are no longer free to be with this person. When someone is tortured, this person is not free of feeling good. When someone is controlled, well this person isn't free at all.

I would never respect a religion that limits peoples' freedom. A religion that tell women to hide themselves under their clothes for example. Also, a religion that doesn't let you love as you wish may it be before or even after the wedding. A religion that asks you to believe in one being without questionning or else you will suffer in hell for eternity.

Now what religions aren't evil ? I'd say Satanism or Buddhism, maybe.

Alliance
It wousl satanism would limit people freedoom as well....maybe I'm just not as familiar with it.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by SP90
And this can be simplified as : "What limits freedom is evil." Freedom is the most important thing, when someone dies, you are no longer free to be with this person. When someone is tortured, this person is not free of feeling good. When someone is controlled, well this person isn't free at all.

I would never respect a religion that limits peoples' freedom. A religion that tell women to hide themselves under their clothes for example. Also, a religion that doesn't let you love as you wish may it be before or even after the wedding. A religion that asks you to believe in one being without questionning or else you will suffer in hell for eternity.

Now what religions aren't evil ? I'd say Satanism or Buddhism, maybe.

I think Evil is more complicated than that. Well here's my take:

Inflicting:



1) Death- violates Life

2) Torture- violates Comfort

3) Control- Violates Freedom


I think anything that destroys or violates one's Life, Comfort, or Freedom is evil. Now people may argue that certain evils are necessary, but that's a whole other debate

Alliance
ohh...heavan forbid we were uncomfortable.

You win with life and freedom. Comfort doesnt pass with me. How about Torture violates health?

maham
Originally posted by Leo.M
You're not gay, but you're also not straight. Is that a sin in God's eyes? Is it wrong to like both men and women? confused

Yup.Bein gay is a sin so if ur attracted 2 a man with u urself BEIN a man then ..I wud say yes.

Alliance
first off...being gay is not a sin. Homosexual sex is a sin. But then again...many stupid things are.

TheSpinner
Originally posted by Leo.M
You're not gay, but you're also not straight. Is that a sin in God's eyes? Is it wrong to like both men and women? confused

According to the definition of homosexual, you are still gay because being gay does not exclude doing it with the opposite sex, as long as you are attracted to or have sex with the same gender.

put it this way! if you enjoy watching porn of a guy with a girl, then you are gay, because 'another guy in action' seems to be an attraction to you. evil face So if you own a couple of xxx rated movies or magazines. you may be gay but delusional about it. And the more you have watched the more gay you are. So if you are married or have a girlfriend you my call yourself bisexual but it does not take way the fact that you are gay. smokin'

Alliance
Originally posted by TheSpinner
According to the definition of homosexual, you are still gay because being gay does not exclude doing it with the opposite sex, as long as you are attracted to or have sex with the same gender.

Thats why the word "bisexual" was invented.

I think everyone at their core has bisexual attractions, but not necessarily bisexual desires.

TheSpinner
Originally posted by Alliance
first off...being gay is not a sin. Homosexual sex is a sin. But then again...many stupid things are.


Correct!

You can be gay because you are sexually attracted to the same gender. but you have not sinned yet unless you act upon it by actually engaging in the same gender sex.

More ever If you are indeed gay as far as emotions and feelings but you have managed to abstain from acting on those desires. not only it is not a sin but IMO it is a VIRTUE . smokin'

Therefore even within the context of religion , the simple fact of being gay is not a sin in itself. It is the actual act that is a sin.

And outside the context of religion there are no sins evil face and I wonder why atheism is so attractive!?!?

maham
y b gay then?Y not get straight!?

TheSpinner
Originally posted by maham
y b gay then?Y not get straight!?

I refrain from telling people what to do, but always try to make them think about they say.

may be they don't know how to get rid of the damn thing, but it is still a VIRTUE to fight the urge. Don't you think?

InnerRise
There's nothing wrong with being Bisexual.

It just means there's more fish in the sea for than others and you'll have more decisions to make.

is it comprehensible.....

Alliance
Originally posted by TheSpinner
Correct!

You can be gay because you are sexually attracted to the same gender. but you have not sinned yet unless you act upon it by actually engaging in the same gender sex.

More ever If you are indeed gay as far as emotions and feelings but you have managed to abstain from acting on those desires. not only it is not a sin but IMO it is a VIRTUE . smokin'

Therefore even within the context of religion , the simple fact of being gay is not a sin in itself. It is the actual act that is a sin.

And outside the context of religion there are no sins evil face and I wonder why atheism is so attractive!?!?

w00t I actually just realized that jest before I wrote it. I was thinking this morning!

Atheism is attractive for reasons other than being "guilt free." As an athiest I have a loght of guilt for things my fellow humans to to eachother. In some ways...it MORE my problem because I cant jsut say "oh god did it....blah blah blah" If being an athiest damned me eternally, I'd still do it becuase I believe its right.

Eis
Originally posted by Alliance
w00t I actually just realized that jest before I wrote it. I was thinking this morning!

Atheism is attractive for reasons other than being "guilt free." As an athiest I have a loght of guilt for things my fellow humans to to eachother. In some ways...it MORE my problem because I cant jsut say "oh god did it....blah blah blah" If being an athiest damned me eternally, I'd still do it becuase I believe its right.
Tell me why are you an atheist? Why are you so sure God doesn't exist?

Justbyfaith
Originally posted by Eis
Tell me why are you an atheist? Why are you so sure God doesn't exist?

I can't wait to hear the answer either Eis. roll eyes (sarcastic)

TheSpinner
Originally posted by InnerRise
There's nothing wrong with being Bisexual.

It just means there's more fish in the sea for than others and you'll have more decisions to make.

is it comprehensible.....


Sorry! I love fishing but I don't do fish or fishy things! but by all means knock yourself out! Just watch out for the tidal sludge smokin'

Alliance
Originally posted by Eis
Tell me why are you an atheist? Why are you so sure God doesn't exist?

First off...nothing is simple about religion. To sum up my beliefs in a list would not do my answer justice. I'm not athiest for any lame reasons like "I felt god abadoned me" or something.

I'll start with this: why God doesnt exist.

First. Plainly put...there is no proof god does or does not exist.

Truth is very hard to atain. To prove somehting correct you have to rule out every possible negative. This is usually not possible. In science, if you rule out a certain degree of nagative over a certain period of time...your hyopthesis turned Theory becomes Law (as close to fact as you will get ever in Science).

I will post this and continue.

docb77
Originally posted by Alliance
w00t I actually just realized that jest before I wrote it. I was thinking this morning!

Atheism is attractive for reasons other than being "guilt free." As an athiest I have a loght of guilt for things my fellow humans to to eachother. In some ways...it MORE my problem because I cant jsut say "oh god did it....blah blah blah" If being an athiest damned me eternally, I'd still do it becuase I believe its right.

I never thought of guilt as a reason for atheism. If I were going to be an atheist I suspect that it would be to deny that a larger force has control of my life. for me it would be a control thing.

But, I'm not an atheist and believing that I were in control wouldn't change the facts one way or another. so...

Eis
Originally posted by Alliance
First off...nothing is simple about religion. To sum up my beliefs in a list would not do my answer justice. I'm not athiest for any lame reasons like "I felt god abadoned me" or something.

I'll start with this: why God doesnt exist.

First. Plainly put...there is no proof god does or does not exist.

Truth is very hard to atain. To prove somehting correct you have to rule out every possible negative. This is usually not possible. In science, if you rule out a certain degree of nagative over a certain period of time...your hyopthesis turned Theory becomes Law (as close to fact as you will get ever in Science).

I will post this and continue.
Well if you accept there isn't any proof either way (the lack of proof is hardly proof for the lack of deity) why aren't you agnostic?

Justbyfaith
Originally posted by Alliance


I'll start with this: why God doesnt exist.

First. Plainly put...there is no proof god does or does not exist.



Look around. Did someone make the watch on you or your friends hands?
Did someone paint that painting on the wall in your house?

Did someone design and build the cars you see on the road?

Look around, is thier design in everything you see?

Open your eyes. God's handiwork is all around you! Happy Dance

InnerRise
Originally posted by TheSpinner
Sorry! I love fishing but I don't do fish or fishy things! but by all means knock yourself out! Just watch out for the tidal sludge smokin' I never stated my sexuality.

is it comprehensible.....

Alliance
Originally posted by docb77
I never thought of guilt as a reason for atheism. If I were going to be an atheist I suspect that it would be to deny that a larger force has control of my life. for me it would be a control thing.

But, I'm not an atheist and believing that I were in control wouldn't change the facts one way or another. so...
It has nothing to do with being free of responsibility. I'm the type of person that I can be a responsible person without having to have someone tell me to do it. Its like a child that has outgrown its parents.

Alliance
Originally posted by Eis
Well if you accept there isn't any proof either way (the lack of proof is hardly proof for the lack of deity) why aren't you agnostic?

My fault for making it two posts. I like to give complete and though answers.

Ok. There have been many god's/religions thought history. People think theirs is right. Most often, people are raised from birth being religious. They are taught how to walk, read, and believe. Simply because thier parents do. Most people don't change thier relgions (significantly). One thing that is common in religion is that other are wrong. its always "mine is right"

Now...what we see here is children being told something before they have logical thought and knowledge of abstract concepts. They don't know if it is right or wrong...they are told so.

Everyone's religion cant be the only right one, but which one is right then becomes an issue. It seemse to me to be mostly an arbitrary point based on who your parents are.

Therfore...I can conlude that no particular religion in itself is factually correct. Now...this is not to say that religion doesn't have redeeming philisophical values...but there is no one facutal conscious god behind the universe.

Beyond this (contrary to JBF's belief) there is no direct evidence for any sort of holy or divine experience ever taking place thorugh human history. Religion was invented to explain the natural world. Lighting is cause by Zeus throwing lightning bolts. Don't piss him off an you wont get hit. Its only natural to project human like attributes onto a god, because that is all we know. Therefore...Zues becomes human...has a wife, affairs, children. Its not a jump to make him angry... To protect themselves...rituals (sacrifices) are created to attempt to please the god.

Thus because we need to explain things, (from lighting to war) human-like gods are created. Evidence of their existance. "sure...its all around us!" Lightning happens....it must be Zeus.

To be continued for yours and my sanity's sake. Death to long posts.

Capt_Fantastic
Originally posted by TheSpinner
Sorry! I love fishing but I don't do fish or fishy things! but by all means knock yourself out! Just watch out for the tidal sludge smokin'

That's just asinine.

In fact Whob, just about everything you've said in this thread has been asinine. Be it under the guise of "The Spinner" or "The Gay Guy".

TheSpinner
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
That's just asinine.

In fact Whob, just about everything you've said in this thread has been asinine. Be it under the guise of "The Spinner" or "The Gay Guy".

If you are so intelligent then why don't get it straight in your head and figure out who you are talking to first.

Or is it so cloudy up there that you don't know your ass from a whole in the ground. smokin'


I will show that you are less intelligent than the whob you think I am: You are so gay and I mean in real life.
So who is the whob now whob? evil face

And if you were so intelligent how come you wasted all your "intelligence" and precious time reading my unintelligent posts in this thread. and how come you were even waiting for my unintelligent response... yes! this one. And You are going to respond to it anyway..... Otherwise you will be conceding as defeated. so which way would you go "Guy Guy"? because you can't pull the Bi... thing on this one.

smokin'

Capt_Fantastic
Originally posted by TheSpinner
If you are so intelligent then why don't get it straight in your head and figure out who you are talking to first.

Or is it so cloudy up there that you don't know your ass from a whole in the ground. smokin'


I will show that you are less intelligent than the whob you think I am: You are so gay and I mean in real life.
So who is the whob now whob? evil face

And if you were so intelligent how come you wasted all your "intelligence" and precious time reading my unintelligent posts in this thread. and how come you were even waiting for my unintelligent response... yes! this one. And You are going to respond to it anyway..... Otherwise you will be conceding as defeated. so which way would you go "Guy Guy"? because you can't pull the Bi... thing on this one.

smokin'

Actually, I'd not seen the thread before today. So, I actually started on page one and didn't see your first post until the last page. It's not difficult to figure out when you've entered a thread. You bring the IQ quotient down by quite a few points. Then the interesting threads are just you verbally masturbating your different personas.

So, in an act of desperation you're actually going to accuse ME of being both Whob AND Gay Guy...thus, making it obvious that you are all three, Whob.

TheSpinner
Originally posted by InnerRise
I never stated my sexuality.

is it comprehensible.....


very Correct! and I was well aware of that. The use of 'you' is just a figure of speech. And does not pertain to the real you: I don't know anything about you, therefore I cannot comment on you personally and I can only comment on what I read, and that is all it was. I hope this clears out any misunderstanding.


Note: If there is ever a need for it and I see it happening with another member here, they Will know it for sure because I don't try to hide.


Just have fun! and think of me as I don't really exist wink

TheSpinner
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Actually, I'd not seen the thread before today. So, I actually started on page one and didn't see your first post until the last page. It's not difficult to figure out when you've entered a thread. You bring the IQ quotient down by quite a few points. Then the interesting threads are just you verbally masturbating your different personas.

So, in an act of desperation you're actually going to accuse ME of being both Whob AND Gay Guy...thus, making it obvious that you are all three, Whob.



No! I just wonder how intelligent is it to argue with what you already PERCEIVE as unintelligent. Makes a lot of sense doesn't it. big grin

And thinking is a also a form of masturbation, and it gives me the greatest pleasure and apparently causes you agony because you make it sound so negative. and watch your face I am about to ejaculate evil face :

"There is no point to argue with an idiot except to make two of you"

You can always prove that I am right again by arguing some more. smokin'

Capt_Fantastic
Originally posted by TheSpinner
No! I just wonder how intelligent is it to argue with what you already PERCEIVE as unintelligent. Makes a lot of sense doesn't it. big grin

And thinking is a also a form of masturbation, and it gives me the greatest pleasure and apparently causes you agony because you make it sound so negative. and watch your face I am about to ejaculate evil face :

"There is no point to argue with an idiot except to make two of you"

You can always prove that I am right again by arguing some more. smokin'

When did I argue? I called you asinine. No argument in my book.

TheSpinner
smokin'

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
...So, in an act of desperation you're actually going to accuse ME of being both Whob AND Gay Guy...thus, making it obvious that you are all three, Whob.


hysterical whob has invaded the forum. You could say we are suffering from whobisim. laughing

TheSpinner
laughing laughing laughing

docb77
Perhaps whob will enter the language.

whob: noun 1. one who annoys persons in the KMC forums 2. One who makes opinion or faith based arguments without presenting logic to back them up

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by docb77
Perhaps whob will enter the language.

whob: noun 1. one who annoys persons in the KMC forums 2. One who makes opinion or faith based arguments without presenting logic to back them up

Don't whob on my parade. laughing

Eis
Originally posted by Alliance
My fault for making it two posts. I like to give complete and though answers.

Ok. There have been many god's/religions thought history. People think theirs is right. Most often, people are raised from birth being religious. They are taught how to walk, read, and believe. Simply because thier parents do. Most people don't change thier relgions (significantly). One thing that is common in religion is that other are wrong. its always "mine is right"

Now...what we see here is children being told something before they have logical thought and knowledge of abstract concepts. They don't know if it is right or wrong...they are told so.

Everyone's religion cant be the only right one, but which one is right then becomes an issue. It seemse to me to be mostly an arbitrary point based on who your parents are.

Therfore...I can conlude that no particular religion in itself is factually correct. Now...this is not to say that religion doesn't have redeeming philisophical values...but there is no one facutal conscious god behind the universe.

Beyond this (contrary to JBF's belief) there is no direct evidence for any sort of holy or divine experience ever taking place thorugh human history. Religion was invented to explain the natural world. Lighting is cause by Zeus throwing lightning bolts. Don't piss him off an you wont get hit. Its only natural to project human like attributes onto a god, because that is all we know. Therefore...Zues becomes human...has a wife, affairs, children. Its not a jump to make him angry... To protect themselves...rituals (sacrifices) are created to attempt to please the god.

Thus because we need to explain things, (from lighting to war) human-like gods are created. Evidence of their existance. "sure...its all around us!" Lightning happens....it must be Zeus.

To be continued for yours and my sanity's sake. Death to long posts.
I'm sorry but you keep saying the same things, from what I get from your post there are two arguments you have to explain your atheism, they are "No scientific evidence supports a deity" and "Religion is usually engraved into a kid's head when he or she's young."

Maybe I'm missing something here but the logical "belief" one would take in this position would be Agnosticism.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by maham
Yup.Bein gay is a sin so if ur attracted 2 a man with u urself BEIN a man then ..I wud say yes.

So INVOLUNTARILY being something is automatically a sin?

I thought Sin was INTENTIONAL...

You are making NO SENSE thumb down...but hey, what can i expect? Most of your arguments a WEAK and one sided. wink

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Alliance
ohh...heavan forbid we were uncomfortable.

You win with life and freedom. Comfort doesnt pass with me. How about Torture violates health?

I don't mean comfort as in "my ass itches..make it stop you demon!"


I meant this: If someone violates your comfort...meaning your ability to have harmless pleasure, your state of peace...by inflicting torture on your person, they are violating you in a way other than violating your freedom or life.

Therefore what they are doing is EVIL wink

Eis
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
So INVOLUNTARILY being something is automatically a sin?

I thought Sin was INTENTIONAL...

You are making NO SENSE thumb down...but hey, what can i expect? Most of your arguments a WEAK and one sided. wink
It's not an argument, it's a fact.


You mean evil in your opinion.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Eis
It's not an argument, it's a fact.

What's a fact?

Eis
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
What's a fact?
That for a christian or a muslim being gay or bisexual is a sin.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Eis
That for a christian or a muslim being gay or bisexual is a sin.

That is not what I was arguing.

MAham, or wahtever his name is, said that BEING something can be a sin...even though BEING something is not intentional.

Yet SIN is an intentional act against God.

If a Self-contradicting fact wink and a weak argument.



Originally posted by Eis
You mean evil in your opinion.


YES, in my opinion, for thou who beleives Good and Evil do not exist.

Eis
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
That is not what I was arguing.

MAham, or wahtever his name is, said that BEING something can be a sin...even though BEING something is not intentional.

Yet SIN is an intentional act against God.

If a Self-contradicting fact wink and a weak argument.






YES, in my opinion, for thou who beleives Good and Evil do not exist.
You're right, it's a man having sex with another man that's a sin. Forgot about that for a second.

I have moral standards, I know my distinction of good and evil. I simply accept there are no universal standards therefore nothing is "officially" good or bad.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Eis
You're right, it's a man having sex with another man that's a sin. Forgot about that for a second.

I have moral standards, I know my distinction of good and evil. I simply accept there are no universal standards therefore nothing is "officially" good or bad.



1) Yes, that's why his argument and fact is invalid.

2) I know you have your moral standards. And i know there is no socially "set" standards for good and evil, well not universally social.

However, i do believe that morality exists to an extant...i beleive it is both subjective ANd intuitive....

As social beings it is our natural desire to thrive off eachother, to come together to survive and enjoy each other's company. No social creature, especially homo sapien, desires to be alone.

However, when a social creature goes against its own nature by attacking or being cruel to one of its OWN kind...i beleive that is anti-progressive.

If EVIL truly exists....then by evolutionary and natural standards it has to be the antithesis of our desire to be together.

HATE is definately a DISUNIFIER...therefore HATE is almost automatically considered evil by most standards. However, every person has a different take on what "hate" actually is.

Eis
I don't believe that, plus how many tea parties do you reckon the cavemen had?
From all the pets I've had the only time they want to be with another animal is when they want to mate.

The rest of your post is based on the quote I replied to so I won't bother replying to the rest.

autumn dreams
Originally posted by Eis
That for a christian or a muslim being gay or bisexual is a sin.

As I am not a Christian nor a Muslim, my homosexuality is not a sin. wink

docb77
Well, if the Christians or Muslims are right it still is, you just won't care about it until after you die.

InnerRise
Originally posted by TheSpinner
very Correct! and I was well aware of that. The use of 'you' is just a figure of speech. And does not pertain to the real you: I don't know anything about you, therefore I cannot comment on you personally and I can only comment on what I read, and that is all it was. I hope this clears out any misunderstanding.


Note: If there is ever a need for it and I see it happening with another member here, they Will know it for sure because I don't try to hide.


Just have fun! and think of me as I don't really exist wink
I see.

is it comprehenensible.....

Alliance
Originally posted by Eis
I'm sorry but you keep saying the same things, from what I get from your post there are two arguments you have to explain your atheism, they are "No scientific evidence supports a deity" and "Religion is usually engraved into a kid's head when he or she's young."

Maybe I'm missing something here but the logical "belief" one would take in this position would be Agnosticism.
I was being redundant...I'm not thinking clearly today.

Those two arguments are correct. I am trying to lead you thorugh years of thinking process. I was establishing agnoticism first and then moing to atheism.

Basically it comes down to this...

1. there is no real reason a god needs to exist. Occam's razor.
2. gods have continuously been made up throughout history solely to explain natural phenomena.
3. Religion is arbitray based on parents/location...not based on truth.
4. Indoctrination of religion has been disastrous for human society.
5. Anything that shuns free thought is most likely false/vulnerable to it.
6. Blind faih is not an option for me.
7. I've found that many deeply religious peoplr are quite cruel and harmful.
8. The main benefits of religion are communla ones...basic values like helping one another. These are often skewed, but I believe they are better recieved elsewhere.
9. I don't need someone to tell me a moral code...I am intelligent enough to think for myself.
10. There can't be one true god
11. Religion actualyl doesnt provide answers...its a system that was built to control the lower class masses.

Perhaps you have a more specific question....or are you still unconvinced.

Capt_Fantastic
Originally posted by TheSpinner
laughing laughing laughing

Are you actually stupid enough to laugh because you think someone is agreeing with you?

The joke is on you, dumbass.

Eis
Originally posted by Alliance
I was being redundant...I'm not thinking clearly today.

Those two arguments are correct. I am trying to lead you thorugh years of thinking process. I was establishing agnoticism first and then moing to atheism.

Basically it comes down to this...

1. there is no real reason a god needs to exist. Occam's razor.
2. gods have continuously been made up throughout history solely to explain natural phenomena.
3. Religion is arbitray based on parents/location...not based on truth.
4. Indoctrination of religion has been disastrous for human society.
5. Anything that shuns free thought is most likely false/vulnerable to it.
6. Blind faih is not an option for me.
7. I've found that many deeply religious peoplr are quite cruel and harmful.
8. The main benefits of religion are communla ones...basic values like helping one another. These are often skewed, but I believe they are better recieved elsewhere.
9. I don't need someone to tell me a moral code...I am intelligent enough to think for myself.
10. There can't be one true god
11. Religion actualyl doesnt provide answers...its a system that was built to control the lower class masses.

Perhaps you have a more specific question....or are you still unconvinced.
Most of these reasons explain why you're not part of an organized religion (Like Christianity or Islam) but nothing here would convince me that there's no god.

Alliance
Ok, last jump. Remember my speal on truth?

The point is, there is no proof that a god exists. The gods we have have all been flase gods made up for various aforementioned reasons. That means in all probablity (knowing that x, the porbablilty that god exists, can never equal 0) no god exists.

TheSpinner
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Are you actually stupid enough to laugh because you think someone is agreeing with you?

The joke is on you, dumbass.

I think dumbass will totally disagree with you....and get it straight I am TheSpinner! but then again you are so gay and you may not have the slightest clue about what straight is.
And I rather be dumbass than a SORE ASS evil face

And If your were not so dumb you would not take a buck for a doe. embarrasment

And since you seem to really dig jokes here is a FANTASTIC one custom made just for you CAPT ':

Two gay guys walk by a bar, what do their penises say to each other:.........................LET'S GET SHIT FACED! laughing laughing laughing

Now, don't tell me that ain't funny 'dudette'! smokin'

Bardock42
Originally posted by Alliance
Ok, last jump. Remember my speal on truth?

The point is, there is no proof that a god exists. The gods we have have all been flase gods made up for various aforementioned reasons. That means in all probablity (knowing that x, the porbablilty that god exists, can never equal 0) no god exists.

I don't know, is it even that improbable? I mean, a God could exist and have created all this without us ever noticing it. It just seems to me we can not truly know. And that the amount of probability you want it to have is totally subjective.

Eis
Originally posted by TheSpinner
I think dumbass will totally disagree with you....and get it straight I am TheSpinner! but then again you are so gay and you may not have the slightest clue about what straight is.
And I rather be dumbass than a SORE ASS evil face

And If your were not so dumb you would not take a buck for a doe. embarrasment

And since you seem to really dig jokes here is a FANTASTIC one custom made just for you CAPT ':

Two gay guys walk by a bar, what do their penises say to each other:.........................LET'S GET SHIT FACED! laughing laughing laughing

Now, don't tell me that ain't funny 'dudette'! smokin'
zOMG!! URE SOOOO STR8!!11oneone

Seriously, Capt proves you're an idiot so you resort to making homophobic jokes...

Disclaimer: Yes, the " zOMG!!!" and the "!!111oneone" belong to PVS, I feel this situation however is more than adequate to use them.

SpadeKing
Originally posted by Leo.M
You're not gay, but you're also not straight. Is that a sin in God's eyes? Is it wrong to like both men and women? confused

well when it comes to u bein bi then yes it is anyo ne else I doubt it

TheSpinner
Originally posted by Eis
zOMG!! URE SOOOO STR8!!11oneone

Seriously, Capt proves you're an idiot so you resort to making homophobic jokes...

Disclaimer: Yes, the " zOMG!!!" and the "!!111oneone" belong to PVS, I feel this situation however is more than adequate to use them.



Doesn't the truth hurt so much whether you gets it from an intelligent or from an idiot?

I may just be an idiot big grin , but how intelligent do you think 'dipping your stick in feces' is? confused

keep dipping your head in shit. And keep fooling yourself about its intelligence smokin'

IT IS A SIN! AND THAT IS A FACT not a theory and you can argue all you want. Happy Dance Happy Dance Happy Dance

InnerRise
Actually when you use a condom in the act I wouldn't call it that.

And it's not as if it's full of feces when you go to do it.

The anus is not filled with feces 24/7.

Time it right and you can have no incidence of feces.

is it comprehensible.....

Capt_Fantastic
Originally posted by TheSpinner
I think dumbass will totally disagree with you....and get it straight I am TheSpinner! but then again you are so gay and you may not have the slightest clue about what straight is.
And I rather be dumbass than a SORE ASS evil face

And If your were not so dumb you would not take a buck for a doe. embarrasment

And since you seem to really dig jokes here is a FANTASTIC one custom made just for you CAPT ':

Two gay guys walk by a bar, what do their penises say to each other:.........................LET'S GET SHIT FACED! laughing laughing laughing

Now, don't tell me that ain't funny 'dudette'! smokin'

Only Whob would use so many simlies.

TheSpinner
Originally posted by Eis
Most of these reasons explain why you're not part of an organized religion (Like Christianity or Islam) but nothing here would convince me that there's no god.

And Nothing convinces us that there is a GOD. It is all a product of the brainwashing since we were babies. Prove that there is a GOD outside from quoting religion that was fed to us before we even could think for ourselves.

I say Alliance's proof that there is no GOD is as good as your proof that there is one. Logic should be used both ways not just your way.

It is just that your belief is different from his. and it is all a matter of perceptions.

Eis
Originally posted by TheSpinner
Doesn't the truth hurt so much whether you gets it from an intelligent or from an idiot?

I may just be an idiot big grin , but how intelligent do you think 'dipping your stick in feces' is? confused

keep dipping your head in shit. And keep fooling yourself about its intelligence smokin'

IT IS A SIN! AND THAT IS A FACT not a theory and you can argue all you want. Happy Dance Happy Dance Happy Dance
I never claimed it was intelligent you dumb ****wit. It's a neutral act, the origins of our desires to engage in these acts are what is being discussed, not the neutrality of the act itself since it's obviously (aside from the convincing "bible factor" of course) neutral.

However, I do agree it is a sin according to the bible, but anyone who consciously chooses to have his or her life be guided by a two thousand year old book is... what I would call a poor decision maker.

However, unfortunately for you, end of the day America and the world are accepting homosexuality every day a little bit more, we will still be "sticking our penises up each other's feces" and we will be happy doing it... Nothing you say or claim will change that.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by TheSpinner
Doesn't the truth hurt so much whether you gets it from an intelligent or from an idiot?

I may just be an idiot big grin , but how intelligent do you think 'dipping your stick in feces' is? confused

keep dipping your head in shit. And keep fooling yourself about its intelligence smokin'

IT IS A SIN! AND THAT IS A FACT not a theory and you can argue all you want. Happy Dance Happy Dance Happy Dance


The only fact you have presented is the fact that when two people engage in oral sex, the penis does usually get covered in feces (unless the reciever gets an enima before hand)

However, the same crap happens with Straight Couples who engage in Anal Sex. Anal sex is not just a gay thing. Gays do have ORAL SEX to u know.....

AS for Homosexuality being sinful....that is all a matter of who beleives what.

"Sin" is simply a religious term, and does not necessarily parallel REALITY.....it's just a part of your beleif system, which is NOT universal...so to claim that Being Gay is wrong with the use of the word "Sin" is an INVALID argument. yes

Gay Guy
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
The only fact you have presented is the fact that when two people engage in oral sex, the penis does usually get covered in feces


laughing out loud

someone needs to go back to anatomy and physiology class..i didn't know people use their asses to eat with..

WrathfulDwarf
No more nonsense in this thread please. That goes for everyone. Keep the topic in civil manner.

TheSpinner-Take some days off for that attitude.

Gay Guy- Do not use emotioncons that have offensive content.

Capt_Fantastic- You're paranoid with the whob guy.

Everyone- Back on topic.

Alliance
DOnt forget that its not a Christian sin to be gay..its onlt a Christian sin to have homesexual sex.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
The only fact you have presented is the fact that when two people engage in oral sex, the penis does usually get covered in feces (unless the reciever gets an enima before hand)

However, the same crap happens with Straight Couples who engage in Anal Sex. Anal sex is not just a gay thing. Gays do have ORAL SEX to u know.....

AS for Homosexuality being sinful....that is all a matter of who beleives what.

"Sin" is simply a religious term, and does not necessarily parallel REALITY.....it's just a part of your beleif system, which is NOT universal...so to claim that Being Gay is wrong with the use of the word "Sin" is an INVALID argument. yes


ANAL...my bad laughing

Capt_Fantastic
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
ANAL...my bad laughing

no no no...ANAL, you're good.

Alliance
anal is good. smile

Adam_PoE
I'll second that.

BackFire
Bisexual is a sin in some religions. The real question is, should you care?

debbiejo
Originally posted by Alliance
DOnt forget that its not a Christian sin to be gay..its onlt a Christian sin to have homesexual sex. Not only that........It's a sin to think about it.........

Justbyfaith
Originally posted by TheSpinner
Prove that there is a GOD outside from quoting religion that was fed to us before we even could think for ourselves.

Logic should be used both ways not just your way.



Here's some good logic. Look around. Time & chance? Ya, right.

No Plan? No Planner? No Design? No Designer? Ya, right.

Evolution? I call that blind faith folks nothing more...nothing less.

Alliance
You dont even know what evolution is. You don't even know that its different form natural selection. mad

debbiejo
Why can't it be combined................??

InnerRise
Evolution: Change in time to better suit your ecological niche.
Ex: Birds of the same species located in different areas eventually change form to adapt best to their different, seperate locations, such as Birds in the past that moved to different islands and slowly over time started to differ from each other.

Natural Selection: Only the best suited to survive actually survive and continue on, the other's die off.
Ex: Giraffe. All of the ones with short necks died off and therefore didn't procreate to make more short neck Giraffes b/c they couldn't reach the High Vegetation up in the trees. The giraffes with the long necks continued on and procreated to make more Giraffes with long necks until that's all that were left.

is it comprehensible.....

Justbyfaith
Originally posted by Alliance
You dont even know what evolution is. You don't even know that its different form natural selection. mad

Natural Selection: Nature decides huh?

Justbyfaith
Originally posted by InnerRise
Evolution: Change in time to better suit your ecological niche.
Ex: Birds of the same species located in different areas eventually change form to adapt best to their different, seperate locations, such as Birds in the past that moved to different islands and slowly over time started to differ from each other.


This is Horizontal Evolution you just described. Yes, God has placed the ability for species to adapt to thier environments. But Vertical Evolution?
This is not proven by the fossil records and FOSSILS CAN"T LIE.

Justbyfaith
Havin fun yet anyone?

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