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Two of my favorite characters here, so I can't be accused of bias towards either:
Grievous definitely has superior reactions and co-ordination, but, Dooku has much more experience and instructed Grievous (who clearly idolized Dooku as a mentor) so may be able to use that to his advantage (as Obi-Wan did in RotS)

Count Dooku.......

Since when does Grievous have superior reactions? He can't use the force.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvTQWX5I6L0&search=Star%20Wars%20clone%20Anakin

There.....

And Dooku has better reflexes than Grievous, he has the force as Lord Dragonfire said....

Count Dooku, he pwns Grevious.

Originally posted by Lord Dragonfire
Since when does Grievous have superior reactions? He can't use the force.....

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/General_Grievous

Originally posted by Lord Dragonfire
He can't use the force.....
And what? The five Jedi that Grievous faced on Hypori could use the Force, and that didn't really do them much good.

Originally posted by kamikz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvTQWX5I6L0&search=Star%20Wars%20clone%20Anakin

There.....

And Dooku has better reflexes than Grievous, he has the force as Lord Dragonfire said....
That was a training session though, hardly a full out fight, which is why I can't really decide who would be the victor.

What the..... Dooku is extremly superior, Grievous was the one fighting there, Dooku was toying him. He always told him what to do and he saw flaws in almost everything he did, he dragged him with the force down on the floor but didn't make a move. The only time Dooku attacked he disarmed Grievous, the rest he just defended. A simple force lightning, game set and match.

Originally posted by kamikz
What the..... Dooku is extremly superior, Grievous was the one fighting there, Dooku was toying him.
Grievous wasn't fighting though. He wasn't trying to kill Dooku, who he clearly idolized as a mentor.
Originally posted by kamikz
He always told him what to do and he saw flaws in almost everything he did
That's what a teacher does. Dooku was able to beat him because of his greater experience, and because he was obviously teaching Grievous.

Originally posted by kamikz
he dragged him with the force down on the floor but didn't make a move. The only time Dooku attacked he disarmed Grievous, the rest he just defended. A simple force lightning, game set and match.
Outside of a 'class room' setting, I think a 'no holds barred' fight would be much more intense

I don't. Grievous was trying to hit him, not just hitting his lightsaber, Dooku was barley trying to do anything but defend and tell him what he did wrong. Because he is a mentor to him doesn't mean he won't try to hit him, cause that's what he did. Thing is that Dooku knew almost exactly everything that Grievous could do, he could toy him with the force obivousley, and his defence wasn't even threatened by Grievous hits.
The only difference a real battle would make is Dooku going all out, and then Grievous is toast....

I remember Dooku saying "to defeat the best of the jedi, you must have fear, surprise and intimidation on your side, you must break them before you engage them". As far as I know, Dooku is in the TOP of the jedi in the order (though he is a sith), he had the advantage of traning him and offencive force powers. He will make short work out of Grievous....

sorry wrong thread

after watching that video, what could you possibly think grievous has against dooku.
plus grievous was throwing everything he had at dooku.

Originally posted by kamikz
I don't. Grievous was trying to hit him, not just hitting his lightsaber, Dooku was barley trying to do anything but defend and tell him what he did wrong. Because he is a mentor to him doesn't mean he won't try to hit him, cause that's what he did. Thing is that Dooku knew almost exactly everything that Grievous could do, he could toy him with the force obivousley, and his defence wasn't even threatened by Grievous hits.
The only difference a real battle would make is Dooku going all out, and then Grievous is toast....

I remember Dooku saying "to defeat the best of the jedi, you must have fear, surprise and intimidation on your side, you must break them before you engage them". As far as I know, Dooku is in the TOP of the jedi in the order (though he is a sith), he had the advantage of traning him and offencive force powers. He will make short work out of Grievous....
I agree, that Dooku was definitely the top of the Jedi order, so he shouldn't have as much difficulty dealing with Grievous as other did, however, as I said, that was a training exercize, Grievous was not intending to kill Dooku, which is why i think it would be different if he wanted to. As I said, I really can't decide who would win, I just think that 'all out', it would be close either way.

Originally posted by Legion_of_Maul
after watching that video, what could you possibly think grievous has against dooku.
??
I never said that Grievous did have anything against Dooku...Grievous doesn't have anything against Dooku. He idolizes him as a mentor.
This is not a 'goodies versus baddies' fight, or anything personal, purely a case of comparing the skills of each, which are indeed formidable.

true. but he was throwing everything he had at dooku because heres how grievous thinks: i'll give it my all against my master, and if he dies he is too weak to teach me.

Originally posted by Legion_of_Maul
true. but he was throwing everything he had at dooku because heres how grievous thinks: i'll give it my all against my master, and if he dies he is too weak to teach me.
If you say so...
I haven't seen anything to suggest that Grievous thought anything negative about Dooku, and totally idolized him as shown 1) when he says how his training has afforded him trophies 2) the inflection in his voice when he said to Palpatine "But the loss of Count Dooku!?" 3) His pride in saying to Obi-Wan "You fool! I've been trained in your Jedi arts, by Count Dooku! (his emphasis, not mine)

This should answer your question.

Didn't this fight already happen in the Cartoon and Dooku won? Whatever, that was when they were sparring not fighting to the death but still, as Dooku states in LOE, sometmes he is hard pressed to defeat Grievous but he does beat him every time. Sure CW Grievous is uber but he's not uber enough to defeat Dooku, not quite.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
This should answer your question.
Noo, because as mentioned above, that is only a training session, not an all out fight.

What the hell, the same goes for Dooku. He was defending, not attacking. If he wanted to he could have made short work of Grievous, that is pretty obvious... And how exactly would a real battle be different than this? Why would Grievous not use all of his skill if he was to be trained by Dooku?

Dooku takes this...

Originally posted by Darth Vious
Noo, because as mentioned above, that is only a training session, not an all out fight.

And yet Obi-Wan pwned General Grievous and Dooku pwned Obi-Wan. Dooku wouldn't need to use his lightsaber he'll force crush his head.

And that training session proves that Grievous couldn't even break Dooku's defenses.

Originally posted by kamikz
What the hell, the same goes for Dooku. He was defending, not attacking.
It's one thing to defend yourself in a training session, and quite another to actually duel with the intention of killing someone.

Originally posted by kamikz
If he wanted to he could have made short work of Grievous, that is pretty obvious...
In that scene, yes, he could, because what you seem to be forgetting is that neither of them were trying to kill (or even harm) each other.

Originally posted by kamikz
And how exactly would a real battle be different than this?
If you don't know the difference between a real battle and a training session, then you will never understand the point I am trying to illustrate.

Originally posted by kamikz
Why would Grievous not use all of his skill if he was to be trained by Dooku?
Again, do you not realize that they are training, not fighting to kill each other. Grievous was not trying to harm Dooku, so he was not fighting to his fullest extent. Dooku was trying to instruct Grievous how to do something that someone would normally have to be Force Sensitive in order to do without killing themself, so it was not as if he could even use his 'normal' lessons. In an all out fight (which was my suggestion, not a training session) neither would need to hold back, but I can't decide who would win, because their skills are so closely matched. What Grievous has in speed and coordination, Dooku can counter with experience and skill, and vice versa.

Grievous is a bad mother-f*cker but Dooku is the shit. . .

the shit>bad motherF*cker

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
And yet Obi-Wan pwned General Grievous
Sorry, but your Obi-Wan>Grievous Dooku>Obi-Wan so Dooku>Grievous does not work here for the following reason:
When Obi-Wan fought Grievous, Grievous was seriously damaged! In CW, Grievous held off five Jedi using only two lightsabers (held in two hands) He did not have to split his arms. Grievous only split his arms against the Ithorian Jedi and his friend as it gave him the element of surprize, not necessarily because it gave him a tactical advantage of more weapons to strike with. In RotS, Grievous had to split his arms and had to use four lightsabers just to face off against a single Jedi. Had Grievous faced Obi-Wan in the condition he had been in Clone Wars, then Obi-Wan would have been butchered. (For reference, Obi-Wan is my favorite character, so this is hardly me championing Grievous out of favortism)

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Dooku wouldn't need to use his lightsaber he'll force crush his head.
Using the Force to definitely attack Grievous would have been against the Count's view of gallantry and honor. He only used the Force to put Grievous to the floor as a reminder (it was afterall a lesson) that Jedi could use the Force (which Grievous also showed the ability to dodge) He would have fought Grievous solely with his lightsaber.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
And that training session proves that Grievous couldn't even break Dooku's defenses.
Rephrase that as:
And that training session proves that Grievous couldn't even break Dooku's defenses without going all out to kill him.

Using the Force to definitely attack Grievous would have been against the Count's view of gallantry and honor. He only used the Force to put Grievous to the floor as a reminder (it was afterall a lesson) that Jedi could use the Force (which Grievous also showed the ability to dodge) He would have fought Grievous solely with his lightsaber.


Don't get me wrong Vious but, Dooku is a Sith. They don't really have codes. . .do they?

Sorry, but your Obi-Wan>Grievous Dooku>Obi-Wan so Dooku>Grievous does not work here for the following reason:
When Obi-Wan fought Grievous, Grievous was seriously damaged! In CW, Grievous held off five Jedi using only two lightsabers (held in two hands) He did not have to split his arms. Grievous only split his arms against the Ithorian Jedi and his friend as it gave him the element of surprise, not necessarily because it gave him a tactical advantage of more weapons to strike with. In RotS, Grievous had to split his arms and had to use four lightsabers just to face off against a single Jedi. Had Grievous faced Obi-Wan in the condition he had been in Clone Wars, then Obi-Wan would have been butchered. (For reference, Obi-Wan is my favorite character, so this is hardly me championing Grievous out of favortism)

Count Dooku said to beat the best of the Jedi he would near fear, surprise, and intimidation on his side. If you are missing even one of these it would be best for him to run.

Grievous didn't have none of these things on Obi-Wan in ROTS and because of that he was beaten.

And stop saying Dooku won't use the Force. You call Dooku this honorable man but he is called a SITH LORD. He used Force Lighting on Sora and Assaj and even threw Obi-Wan around like a rag doll.

And during their training session Dooku was pointing out all these flaws Grievous had in combat.

Originally posted by Pyro Tyrannus
Don't get me wrong Vious but, Dooku is a Sith. They don't really have codes. . .do they?
As I said a while back to a similar question, I think there is a Sith Code, but I don't know what it is. Dooku however, regardless of his 'affiliation', was an aristocratic elitist, viewing himself as above people. He had a set idea about what was 'good conduct', and expected others to live up to it. (like in the novelization of RotS where he said that if Anakin was 'a gentleman', he would have learned to duel one handed rather than use a prosthetic)

Originally posted by Darth Vious
It's one thing to defend yourself in a training session, and quite another to actually duel with the intention of killing someone.


In that scene, yes, he could, because what you seem to be forgetting is that neither of them were trying to kill (or even harm) each other.


If you don't know the difference between a real battle and a training session, then you will never understand the point I am trying to illustrate.


Again, do you not realize that they are training, not fighting to kill each other. Grievous was not trying to harm Dooku, so he was not fighting to his fullest extent. Dooku was trying to instruct Grievous how to do something that someone would normally have to be Force Sensitive in order to do without killing themself, so it was not as if he could even use his 'normal' lessons. In an all out fight (which was my suggestion, not a training session) neither would need to hold back, but I can't decide who would win, because their skills are so closely matched. What Grievous has in speed and coordination, Dooku can counter with experience and skill, and vice versa.

Why don't you get that Grievous was trying to win that fight. People can sparr against eachother and still go all out. Look at it this way. Both are fighting in a sparring match (Dooku is the one that is trying the least of both of them), so both are not doing their best. Dooku still beats Grievous with ease. Now both are doing their fullest, then again, Dooku should win....

Dooku seriousley had no problem to attack Grievous, he disarmed him exactly when he wanted to. He saw flaws in EVERYTHING, in a real fight Dooku would know exactly where Grievous flaws was and exploit them. He could either WTFpwn him with the force, or he could disarm/kill him in a lightsaber battle. Common, Dooku said that Grievous could not beat the best of the jedi except with intimidation on his side, Dooku even said that Cin Drallig and Obi-Wan could beat him, and this was before Grievous became what he was in ROTS. And LOE never says that Grievous got badly wounded either.

Look Grievous is the same in CW as in ROTS. The only difference is that the CW makes everyone overpowered. Yoda and Mace were WTFpwning an entire Droid Army and whipping our star ships. In ROTS Yoda and Obi-Wan weren't WTFpwning the Clone Troopers but still winning.

Now then Grievous didn't have fear, suprise, or intimidation on his side in ROTS. He ignored Dooku's warnings because he got to full of himself and went all out on Obi-Wan and got pwned. So Grievous fled.

Grievous wouldn't have any of those things against Count Dooku who is a talented swordsman and strong in the Force. Dooku was pointing out Grievous's flaws left and right during their entire fight.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Count Dooku said to beat the best of the Jedi he would near fear, surprise, and intimidation on his side. If you are missing even one of these it would be best for him to run.

Grievous didn't have none of these things on Obi-Wan in ROTS and because of that he was beaten.

Actually, Grievous did have them. He had Surprize (Splitting his arms to wield four lightsabers) Intimidation (by telling Obi-Wan he had been taught by Count Dooku) and Fear (from the combination of those first two factors. However, as I said before, Grievous was also seriously damaged. He was nowhere near the condition he was in CW when he could hold off five Jedi with only two lightsabers. In the condition he was in in RotS, he had to use four lightsabers just to stand up to Obi-Wan (although they were also deployed for psychological effect as mentioned above)



Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Look Grievous is the same in CW as in ROTS.
No, he is not. In CW, was Grievous coughing and wheezing like an asthmatic on a treadmill?
Why was Grievous coughing and wheezing like an asthmatic on a treadmill?
That is why he was not able to fight as well in RotS as he had in CW.

Originally posted by kamikz
Why don't you get that Grievous was trying to win that fight. People can sparr against eachother and still go all out.
Seeing as you a few comments back you couldn't tell the difference between a training session and a fight to the death, not to mention my own experience in the subject, I'm not particularly convinced by your assertion that Grievous was going all out. The only reason Grievous would go all out was if he wanted to win (which would mean killing Dooku, and he wouldn't want to do that as he idolized him as a mentor)

Originally posted by Darth Vious
Actually, Grievous did have them. He had Surprize (Splitting his arms to wield four lightsabers) Intimidation (by telling Obi-Wan he had been taught by Count Dooku) and Fear (from the combination of those first two factors. However, as I said before, Grievous was also seriously damaged. He was nowhere near the condition he was in CW when he could hold off five Jedi with only two lightsabers. In the condition he was in in RotS, he had to use four lightsabers just to stand up to Obi-Wan (although they were also deployed for psychological effect as mentioned above)




No, he is not. In CW, was Grievous coughing and wheezing like an asthmatic on a treadmill?
Why was Grievous coughing and wheezing like an asthmatic on a treadmill?
That is why he was not able to fight as well in RotS as he had in CW.

And tell me, how much did the intimidation intimidate Obi-Wan? How much did the surprise surprise Obi-Wan?

Actually, what is more canon, LOE or the cartoons? In LOE Grievous doesn't get wounded by Mace, in the cartoons he does. Didn't Lucas just put in the coughs for the audience to understand that he was more than just a robot?

Actually, Grievous did have them. He had Surprize (Splitting his arms to wield four lightsabers) Intimidation (by telling Obi-Wan he had been taught by Count Dooku) and Fear (from the combination of those first two factors. However, as I said before, Grievous was also seriously damaged. He was nowhere near the condition he was in CW when he could hold off five Jedi with only two lightsabers. In the condition he was in in RotS, he had to use four lightsabers just to stand up to Obi-Wan (although they were also deployed for psychological effect as mentioned above)

He did not have surprise. Obi-Wan just watched him split his arms and then smiled. Obi-Wan had surprise on his side.

And Grievous didn't have fear or intimidation for Obi-Wan wasn't afraid of Grievous. All he did was smile and say "your move."

No, he is not. In CW, was Grievous coughing and wheezing like an asthmatic on a treadmill?
Why was Grievous coughing and wheezing like an asthmatic on a treadmill?
That is why he was not able to fight as well in RotS as he had in CW.

No the reason is stated above. He didn't have fear and surprise on his side. When he first appeared in CW he crushed a Padawan's head and the other Jedi never saw anything like that.

And him being crushed could be for 2 reasons:

1.) They didn't plan on Grievous coughing when he first appeared on SW
2.) It was in order to allow Obi-Wan to open his chest up

Grievous is the same in ROTS as he is in CW.

Originally posted by kamikz
And tell me, how much did the intimidation intimidate Obi-Wan? How much did the surprise surprise Obi-Wan?
I don't know, I'm not Obi-Wan, and I haven't read that part of the novelization, so I don't know how it describes his emotional state. It's irrelevent of how they affected him, those were Grievous' intentions when he revealed them to Obi-Wan.



Originally posted by kamikz
Actually, what is more canon, LOE or the cartoons?
The cartoons are more canon, because they show the audience
precicely what is going on, where the novel requires the reader to use their imagination to 'fill in' the details...

Originally posted by kamikz
Didn't Lucas just put in the coughs for the audience to understand that he was more than just a robot?
Yes, that was Lucas' reason for Grievous coughing, but, they way he introduced it was by having Mace Force crush his chest in the cartoons.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
He did not have surprise. Obi-Wan just watched him split his arms and then smiled. Obi-Wan had surprise on his side.

And Grievous didn't have fear or intimidation for Obi-Wan wasn't afraid of Grievous. All he did was smile and say "your move."

As I said above, just because they might not have had the desired effect on Obi-Wan, that does not change the fact that those were the reasons why Grievous revealed those things.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
No the reason is stated above. He didn't have fear and surprise on his side.
That had nothing to do with the fact that he was not in anywhere near the same physical condition that he had been previously, which is the reason he lost.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest

And him being crushed could be for 2 reasons:

1.) They didn't plan on Grievous coughing when he first appeared on SW
2.) It was in order to allow Obi-Wan to open his chest up
1) Lucas always planned on Grievous coughing for the reason mentioned above, it showed to the audience that he was more than just a droid.
2) How does Grievous' coughing allow Obi-Wan to open his chest? Obi-Wan was just trying to disable him further to win the fight, the fact he was caughing was beside the point. Personally, I thought that was a low blow from Obi-Wan, as I doubt he would have tried to rip an organic opponent's rib-cage open.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Grievous is the same in ROTS as he is in CW.
No, I'm afraid that he is not, for the reasons mentioned above.

Originally posted by Pyro Tyrannus
Grievous is a bad mother-f*cker but Dooku is the shit. . .

the shit>bad motherF*cker that was the most impacting speach i have ever heard...

Originally posted by Legion_of_Maul
that was the most impacting speach i have ever heard...

Lol. I would like to thank my beer of choice. Budwieser. Without it I wouldn't be here on these forums. . .

*hands pyro his award* and the drunken king of speeches goes to pyro tyrannus's mother!

2) How does Grievous' coughing allow Obi-Wan to open his chest? Obi-Wan was just trying to disable him further to win the fight, the fact he was caughing was beside the point. Personally, I thought that was a low blow from Obi-Wan, as I doubt he would have tried to rip an organic opponent's rib-cage open

His chest plates hold something very important, his interal organs. So Mace's force crush must have weakened it allowing Obi-Wan the chance to be able to pull it open.

And still no proof that Grievous became weaker. He didn't have fear, surprise, or intemindation. Grievous revealed his four lightsabers so that he would stand a better chance in combat against Obi-Wan. Kenobi knew Grievous had 4 arms. Grievous had nothing on Obi-Wan. Fact is Obi-Wan would have defeated Grievous whether it was CW or ROTS.

And you fail to see that the CW overpowers everyone. Mace defeated an entire droid army without a lightsaber. Man he must have wounded in ROTS or something.

Yoda's Force Push threw back hundreds of Battle Droids. Man Yoda must have been wounded becaus he couldn't push back a few Senate Pods.

Fact is that the CW overpowers all the characters. There is no difference between Grievous from CW and ROTS expect the coughing and that could have been done to show that he wasn't a droid for ROTS.

Originally posted by Legion_of_Maul
*hands pyro his award* and the drunken king of speeches goes to pyro tyrannus's mother!


Pyro's mom: Star Wars is the devil!!!!!!!!!


Pyro's mom then prceeded to shoot everyone. . .

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
His chest plates hold something very important, his interal organs. So Mace's force crush must have weakened it allowing Obi-Wan the chance to be able to pull it open.
Yeesss... That is correct... I'm not sure what you're trying to actually prove or say there though...

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
And still no proof that Grievous became weaker.
Let's see:
1) Anakin and Obi-Wan break free of their cuffs and start decimating Grievous' bridge crew. Grievous did not even attempt to engage them (two Jedi) despite the fact he had previously taken on five Jedi without a moment's hesitation. Regardless of Dooku's teachings, he knew that he was too weak to fight them, so he retreated.

2) When he confronted Obi-Wan, he had to seperate his arms and use four lightsabers. He had previously only needed two lightsabers (in two hands) to face five Jedi, two of which, were on the Jedi Council.

Those are both examples that he was weaker than he was in Clone Wars.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
He didn't have fear, surprise, or intemindation.
As I said. He had the surprise of splitting his arms (which Obi-Wan did not know about) and the intimidation of telling Obi-Wan he had been taught by Count Dooku (who had beaten Obi-Wan at every encounter) so those should have provided fear. As it was, they didn't have the desired result, but, they were elements that Grievous thought he had.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Kenobi knew Grievous had 4 arms.
How? It's certainly not mentioned anywhere in the movie, is Obi-Wan told about it during a 'cut scene' in the novelization? Even if this is the case, Grievous would not have known that Obi-Wan knew he had four arms, so he would still have thought he had an advantage of surprize.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Grievous had nothing on Obi-Wan.
Meaning what?

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Fact is Obi-Wan would have defeated Grievous whether it was CW or ROTS.
Obi-Wan would have been butchered by Grievous had he been in the same condition he was in during CW.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
And you fail to see that the CW overpowers everyone. Mace defeated an entire droid army without a lightsaber.
Yes, he did. A canon event.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Man he must have wounded in ROTS or something.
Why? He beat Palpatine, and would have killed him had Anakin not cut off his sword hand.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Yoda's Force Push threw back hundreds of Battle Droids.
Yes.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Man Yoda must have been wounded becaus he couldn't push back a few Senate Pods.
He could. That's why Palpatine had to jump out of the way. During the last moments of their Force contest, Palpatine was actually the one who looked in the most trouble. They were both sent flying from the shockwave, the only reason Palpatine didn't fall so far, was because as he fell, his wrist hit a railing that he was able to use to hold onto and pull himself up. Yoda, on the other hand, wasn't able to get a solid handhold, so fell further and harder.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest

Fact is that the CW overpowers all the characters.
No. CW shows the kinds of feats that the Jedi and Sith are capable of, but would look comical if performed by live actors.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
There is no difference between Grievous from CW and ROTS expect the coughing and that could have been done to show that he wasn't a droid for ROTS.
As I said, the coughing was done to show Grievous wasn't a droid, but, the way he was made to cough was when Mace Force crushed his chest, (and possibly also his head to a degree) which instantly made him cough, and may have also damaged the cybernetic enhancements to his brain which increased his reactions and coordination (hence why he felt unable to fight Anakin and Obi-Wan together despite having fought twice as many Jedi previously, and why he had to rely on the extra arms and lightsabers to take on Obi-Wan on his own.

Originally posted by Darth Vious
Yeesss... That is correct... I'm not sure what you're trying to actually prove or say there though...


Let's see:
1) Anakin and Obi-Wan break free of their cuffs and start decimating Grievous' bridge crew. Grievous did not even attempt to engage them (two Jedi) despite the fact he had previously taken on five Jedi without a moment's hesitation. Regardless of Dooku's teachings, he knew that he was too weak to fight them, so he retreated.

2) When he confronted Obi-Wan, he had to seperate his arms and use four lightsabers. He had previously only needed two lightsabers (in two hands) to face five Jedi, two of which, were on the Jedi Council.

Those are both examples that he was weaker than he was in Clone Wars.Yes, he did. A canon event.


Why? He beat Palpatine, and would have killed him had Anakin not cut off his sword hand.


As I said. He had the surprise of splitting his arms (which Obi-Wan did not know about) and the intimidation of telling Obi-Wan he had been taught by Count Dooku (who had beaten Obi-Wan at every encounter) so those should have provided fear. As it was, they didn't have the desired result, but, they were elements that Grievous thought he had.


How? It's certainly not mentioned anywhere in the movie, is Obi-Wan told about it during a 'cut scene' in the novelization? Even if this is the case, Grievous would not have known that Obi-Wan knew he had four arms, so he would still have thought he had an advantage of surprize.


Meaning what?


Obi-Wan would have been butchered by Grievous had he been in the same condition he was in during CW.





Yes.


He could. That's why Palpatine had to jump out of the way. During the last moments of their Force contest, Palpatine was actually the one who looked in the most trouble. They were both sent flying from the shockwave, the only reason Palpatine didn't fall so far, was because as he fell, his wrist hit a railing that he was able to use to hold onto and pull himself up. Yoda, on the other hand, wasn't able to get a solid handhold, so fell further and harder.


No. CW shows the kinds of feats that the Jedi and Sith are capable of, but would look comical if performed by live actors.


As I said, the coughing was done to show Grievous wasn't a droid, but, the way he was made to cough was when Mace Force crushed his chest, (and possibly also his head to a degree) which instantly made him cough, and may have also damaged the cybernetic enhancements to his brain which increased his reactions and coordination (hence why he felt unable to fight Anakin and Obi-Wan together despite having fought twice as many Jedi previously, and why he had to rely on the extra arms and lightsabers to take on Obi-Wan on his own.


1. Grievous didn't have any of the factors mentioned by Dooku, "intimidation", none, "surprise", none, "fear", none. Actually, it was Obi and Ani who surprised him. These were two of the top jedi duellists in the order, I doubt he dared, besides, the ship itself was coming appart.....

2. And for how long did it surprise Obi? Not long I tell you. It would have been different if it were like it were for those two jedi who faced him in front of Palpatine. He took them out during the duel, Obi-Wan had time to prepare himself for 4 arms....

Dooku said that he needed to "break" the targets before he engaged them. Obi was one of the best jedi in the order, Dooku said clearly that he should run if he did not have these factors. When Ani and Obi were on the ship they were 2 of the best jedi in the order, he simply did not dare.
Dooku also mentioned Obi-Wan in the line of people Grievous could NOT beat, and this was during the clone wars. Grievous knew this, he knew what Kenobi was capable of, he didn't want to take any risks, hence he took out four arms....


Nope I'm sure Obi did not know about the four arm deal, but he had more than enough time to prepare himself. And Obi already knew that Dooku trained Grievous (Grievous comics), he had been informed together with the rest of the council. Obi even made the bald comment, "your move" before the fight and it was actually he who engaged Grievous in a duel alone against a huge army of droids. Grievous still thought he could win and wanted to finish Kenobi off himself. Thing is that there is not a single sign of surprise or fear on Obi-Wan.....

Since Dooku who trained Grievous and knew exactly what he was capable of, said that Kenobi could defeat Grievous even during the clone wars, I belive that he could. He also said that Grievous never cold defeat the best jedi without those elements that has been listed above. Obi was around the 5 best in the order AND a style almost MADE to destroy Grievous. He was simply to good for him....


About the "Grievous being better in the CW", I don't know. LOE doesn't say shit about it...

Sorry, I don't have time to wait for your respons, going to bed now. Bye!

Originally posted by kamikz
1. Grievous didn't have any of the factors mentioned by Dooku, "intimidation", none, "surprise", none, "fear", none. Actually, it was Obi and Ani who surprised him. These were two of the top jedi duellists in the order, I doubt he dared, besides, the ship itself was coming appart.....

2. And for how long did it surprise Obi? Not long I tell you. It would have been different if it were like it were for those two jedi who faced him in front of Palpatine. He took them out during the duel, Obi-Wan had time to prepare himself for 4 arms....

You haven't actually responded to the points I made, other than repeating a single part of Dooku's tuition. Respond to the points made, not just repeating irrelevent nonsense that has nothing to do with how Grievous was observably weaker in RotS than he was in CW (because of the damage Mace inflicted upon him)

Originally posted by kamikz
Dooku also mentioned Obi-Wan in the line of people Grievous could NOT beat, and this was during the clone wars.
?? In what episode of CW did Dooku say that? I certainly don't remember him saying it at all...

Originally posted by kamikz
Grievous knew this, he knew what Kenobi was capable of, he didn't want to take any risks, hence he took out four arms....
That is partly correct, in that Grievous knew what Obi-Wan was capable of, however, as I said before and you ignored, Grivous had previously faced five Jedi (Two of whom were Council Members) without a second's hesitation, and only needed to use two lightsabers (in two hands) The reason why he felt Obi-Wan was a threat, was because he realized that the damage Mace inflicted upon him had greatly reduced his combat abilities, and although he deployed his arms as a surprize tactic, it was also because he had to use that many sabers to try and face Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by kamikz
Nope I'm sure Obi did not know about the four arm deal
So why did you say that he did?

Originally posted by kamikz
About the "Grievous being better in the CW", I don't know.
I'd've thought it was pretty obvious that he was better in CW as he could take on five Jedi with ease, avoided fully automatic blaster fire from multiple targets (and a gunship) and butchered about a dozen Elite Clones (who were guarding Palpatine) yet in RotS, he was unable to take on two Jedi or avoid single shots from a blaster that was pointed straight at him.

Originally posted by kamikz
LOE doesn't say shit about it...
Well, first off, we're not discussing LOE, so it's totally irrelevent. Second, I explained less than 12 hours ago why CW is a more canon source of information than LOE (as it shows it's audience exactly what is going on, rather than a reader using their imagination)

As I said. He had the surprise of splitting his arms (which Obi-Wan did not know about) and the intimidation of telling Obi-Wan he had been taught by Count Dooku (who had beaten Obi-Wan at every encounter) so those should have provided fear. As it was, they didn't have the desired result, but, they were elements that Grievous thought he had.

1.) Obi-Wan had knowledge of Grievous capablities of splitting his arms. At that time it was clear knowledge and the Jedi council sent the Jedi they knew would win...Obi-Wan Kenobi.
2.) And what does saying "I have been taught by Count Dooku" has to do with fear? Guess what, Obi-Wan taught the Jedi who killed Count Dooku.

Grievous had nothing with him.

1) Anakin and Obi-Wan break free of their cuffs and start decimating Grievous' bridge crew. Grievous did not even attempt to engage them (two Jedi) despite the fact he had previously taken on five Jedi without a moment's hesitation. Regardless of Dooku's teachings, he knew that he was too weak to fight them, so he retreated.

2) When he confronted Obi-Wan, he had to seperate his arms and use four lightsabers. He had previously only needed two lightsabers (in two hands) to face five Jedi, two of which, were on the Jedi Council.

1.) No he waited to attack the 5 at the right time. He snuck up on them and focuses on splitting them apart. He had fear, surprise, and intemidation on his side.

2.) Dooku points all so many flaws Grievous had in his fighting style. Obi-Wan's form focuses on defense and wait for his opponent to make a mistake. Grievous needed to use four lightsabers or else he would have been dead sooner.

Well, first off, we're not discussing LOE, so it's totally irrelevent. Second, I explained less than 12 hours ago why CW is a more canon source of information than LOE (as it shows it's audience exactly what is going on, rather than a reader using their imagination)

Fans of Grievous on several Star Wars forums, including theforce.net, have theorized that the loss to Obi-Wan Kenobi should not be attributed solely to the Jedi Master's lightsaber skills, but rather to the fact that Grievous was rendered practically immobile after his encounter with Mace Windu on Coruscant. General Grievous, as featured in the Clone Wars cartoons and the novel Labyrinth of Evil, is a highly mobile killer, who relies on his quick reflexes and agility to overcome opponents. This theory holds weight when observing Grievous's performance in the Clone Wars series, in which he outmaneuvers and destroys Republic forces with relative ease, contrasting with Revenge of the Sith, in which General Grievous relies on four lightsabers to overwhelm Kenobi. During the battle on Utapau, Grievous has apparently lost his ability to jump several feet in the air and his ability to run. His wet hacking cough appears to negatively affect his reflexes. By the time Kenobi is facing Grievous, he is no longer the stealthy, agile opponent able to rely on two lightsabers that he was against previous Jedi opponents. Instead, Grievous attempts to quickly finish Kenobi with four lightsabers and, as a result, loses two arms in combat.

However, some fans disregard this theory, as the Clone Wars micro-series, while canon, exaggerates the performance of major characters. For example, Mace Windu is depicted destroying a seismic tank using a tactic that involves Force Jumping hundreds of feet into the air, while Grievous is shown leaping nearly 100 feet to reach the ceiling of an Acclamator Class Assault Ship from the ground.

Another theory involves the differences between the combat of Kenobi and the other Jedi Grievous faces. In the Clone Wars micro-series, Dooku told the cyborg in training that he needs three things to defeat the best of the Jedi: "Surprise, fear, and intimidation." All of these were lacking in his fight against Kenobi, however, who ambushed Grievous instead.

In the novelization of the film, Mace Windu indicates that Obi-Wan Kenobi, with his absolute mastery of the defensive Soresu style of lightsaber combat, is the ideal agent to be sent to destroy Grievous. A barrage of lightsaber attacks from a non-force user like Grievous, even in close quarters, proved ineffective for the droid general. Despite Grievous' combat training mechanisms which serve to overcome an opponents patterns, Kenobi's perfect mastery of Soresu renders this skill obsolete since the simple function of Soresu is to deflect attacks of all sorts.

Windu also concludes that Grievous, for all of his power, lacks an appreciation for simplicity. Obi-Wan needed to do no more than wait out Grievous' attacks with his Form III and use some sweeping Form IV Ataru slashes when a hole in his offense is available.

Originally posted by Darth Vious
You haven't actually responded to the points I made, other than repeating a single part of Dooku's tuition. Respond to the points made, not just repeating irrelevent nonsense that has nothing to do with how Grievous was observably weaker in RotS than he was in CW (because of the damage Mace inflicted upon him)


?? In what episode of CW did Dooku say that? I certainly don't remember him saying it at all...


That is partly correct, in that Grievous knew what Obi-Wan was capable of, however, as I said before and you ignored, Grivous had previously faced five Jedi (Two of whom were Council Members) without a second's hesitation, and only needed to use two lightsabers (in two hands) The reason why he felt Obi-Wan was a threat, was because he realized that the damage Mace inflicted upon him had greatly reduced his combat abilities, and although he deployed his arms as a surprize tactic, it was also because he had to use that many sabers to try and face Obi-Wan.


So why did you say that he did?


I'd've thought it was pretty obvious that he was better in CW as he could take on five Jedi with ease, avoided fully automatic blaster fire from multiple targets (and a gunship) and butchered about a dozen Elite Clones (who were guarding Palpatine) yet in RotS, he was unable to take on two Jedi or avoid single shots from a blaster that was pointed straight at him.


Well, first off, we're not discussing LOE, so it's totally irrelevent. Second, I explained less than 12 hours ago why CW is a more canon source of information than LOE (as it shows it's audience exactly what is going on, rather than a reader using their imagination)


What the? I responded to your posts. You made posts about 1, Grievous factors in the Obi fight, 2, Grievous fighting with Dooku. I answered both. If you can describe exactly what I missed instead of saying that I post bullshit I would be satisfied.....

He didn't say it in an episode, he said it in a book during CW.

And what was the situation with those jedi? They were all frightened of their lives, they were alone, broken, scared, everything you could possibly tell. Grievous faced them alone because he had all the factors. Beside, none of them were the best of the jedi. And the 2 arm deal, did he have the capability of 4? Besides, they didn't want to reveal that until the latest episode.....

I didn't say that, ESB did.....

The two jedi he fought were some of the best in the order, even in the top 5. One of which maybe was 3 or 2 and had a shitload of potential, another which had a style made to kill him. And he wasn't even prepared about that shot. And since when does Mace force crush people?


Show me proof. And CW overpowers characters like hell..... And I don't care, you are talking about CW Grievous, not CW cartoons Grievous only. It is Grievous during the clone wars, which means Grievous during LOE as well. Dooku clearly said that even when Grievous was as he was during the clone wars he could not defeat.....

Obi-Wan, Mace, Yoda, Cin Drallig, himself.....

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
1.) Obi-Wan had knowledge of Grievous capablities of splitting his arms.
How? He certainly didn't aquire the knowledge in CW or in the movie (highest canon) of RotS. Was it in an 'extra' scene in the novelization?

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
2.) And what does saying "I have been taught by Count Dooku" has to do with fear?
It was a statement meant to intimidate. Dooku was acknowledged as the greatest duellist and saber instructor in the Jedi Order. To know an opponenent had been trained by such a person could well be an intimidating fact to learn. It turned out that Obi-Wan wasn't intimidated, but that is not the point. The point, is that Grievous thought he had that advantage.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
1.) No he waited to attack the 5 at the right time. He snuck up on them and focuses on splitting them apart. He had fear, surprise, and intemidation on his side.
I don't like the word 'snuck', it implies cowardly sneaking. Dooku stalked the Jedi, as a Hunter would stalk their prey (suggesting cunning, stealth and technique)

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
2.) Dooku points all so many flaws Grievous had in his fighting style.
Okay, you're American, so you're looking at this from a certain cultural view point which does not think that negativity is usefull or encouraging to students. The fact is, that unless a student has their mistakes pointed out to them, they will not know they are making them, and would be unable to improve. Sometimes, criticism is required of a student's work. Also, let's not forget that Dooku was training a non-Force sensitive being to do something that pretty much requires Force Sensitivity. His 'normal' lessons might not necessarily apply, so he would have had to deliver them in a way Grievous' computer-augmented brain would assimilate the information.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Obi-Wan's form focuses on defense and wait for his opponent to make a mistake. Grievous needed to use four lightsabers or else he would have been dead sooner.

Yes, that is correct about Soresu, but, Grievous did not make any mistakes against Obi-Wan. The novelization clarifies (which can be seen on the movie when viewed in slow motion) that Grievous overcame Obi-Wan's defences, but Obi-Wan shifted his blade, so rather than blocking the incoming attack, he made Grievous cut himself against it. That is why Grievous lost his first hand. The second hand was cut when Obi-Wan shifted his blade down Grievous' to tag his wrist.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Fans of Grievous on several Star Wars forums, including theforce.net, have theorized that the loss to Obi-Wan Kenobi should not be attributed solely to the Jedi Master's lightsaber skills, but rather to the fact that Grievous was rendered practically immobile after his encounter with Mace Windu on Coruscant. General Grievous, as featured in the Clone Wars cartoons and the novel Labyrinth of Evil, is a highly mobile killer, who relies on his quick reflexes and agility to overcome opponents. This theory holds weight when observing Grievous's performance in the Clone Wars series, in which he outmaneuvers and destroys Republic forces with relative ease, contrasting with Revenge of the Sith, in which General Grievous relies on four lightsabers to overwhelm Kenobi. During the battle on Utapau, Grievous has apparently lost his ability to jump several feet in the air and his ability to run. His wet hacking cough appears to negatively affect his reflexes. By the time Kenobi is facing Grievous, he is no longer the stealthy, agile opponent able to rely on two lightsabers that he was against previous Jedi opponents. Instead, Grievous attempts to quickly finish Kenobi with four lightsabers and, as a result, loses two arms in combat.
I agree with that theory entirely.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Another theory involves the differences between the combat of Kenobi and the other Jedi Grievous faces. In the Clone Wars micro-series, Dooku told the cyborg in training that he needs three things to defeat the best of the Jedi: "Surprise, fear, and intimidation." All of these were lacking in his fight against Kenobi, however, who ambushed Grievous instead.
To view the outcome of the duel based only a single lesson of tuition is the kind of narrow-minded armchair quarterbacking I would expect from a bunch of fanboys who have never set foot in a dojo in their lives, especially when the first theory actually explains everything.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
In the novelization of the film, Mace Windu indicates that Obi-Wan Kenobi, with his absolute mastery of the defensive Soresu style of lightsaber combat, is the ideal agent to be sent to destroy Grievous. A barrage of lightsaber attacks from a non-force user like Grievous, even in close quarters, proved ineffective for the droid general. Despite Grievous' combat training mechanisms which serve to overcome an opponents patterns, Kenobi's perfect mastery of Soresu renders this skill obsolete since the simple function of Soresu is to deflect attacks of all sorts.
Absolutely right.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Windu also concludes that Grievous, for all of his power, lacks an appreciation for simplicity.
Again, absolutely right.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Obi-Wan needed to do no more than wait out Grievous' attacks with his Form III and use some sweeping Form IV Ataru slashes when a hole in his offense is available.
But Obi-Wan didn't use any 'sweeping Ataru slashes' as there was no hold in Grievous' offence. As I pointed out above, Obi-Wan used Grievous' own skill against him by making him cut off his own hand against his saber. Look at Grievous' reaction when his first hand is severed. It's hard to read the expression in a being who's face is essentially a mask, but, his body language is clearly "WTF!!!" surprize at what happened.

Dooku taught Grievous and was his mentor. Dooku is way better.

Originally posted by kamikz

Which book? LOE?
I've already explained why LOE is not a canon source. CW is an entirely visual medium. It tells its audience exactly what is happening, therefore it is the more canon source. It protrays events differently to LOE, and as a result of being more canon, renders LOE irrelevent and little more than published fanfiction.

Originally posted by kamikz
And what was the situation with those jedi? They were all frightened of their lives, they were alone, broken, scared, everything you could possibly tell. Grievous faced them alone because he had all the factors. Beside, none of them were the best of the jedi.
They were not scared when they faced Grievous, as Ki-Adi had raised their spirits. As for them not being 'the best of the Jedi', Ki-Adi and Shaak Ti were on the Jedi Council!!! That's not a f*cking commisary where they sit around shooting the breeze, it's twelve people selected because of their skill! Ki-Adi was (apart from Yoda and Zet Jukassa) the only Jedi who realized that the troops were going to attack him (as he had turned when he realized they weren't following him, so saw they were aiming at him) and able to put up a fight (only to get overwhelmed by the number of attackers) He's hardly one of the most popular characters, but, his performance against Grievous and in RotS cannot be denied.

Originally posted by kamikz
And the 2 arm deal, did he have the capability of 4? Besides, they didn't want to reveal that until the latest episode.....
Just because they didn't want to reveal it, that doesn't mean that he didn't have the capability previously. This is a case once more of plot requirement governing actions, however, whatever way you want to look at it, Grievous was able to face up to five Jedi with only two lightsabers in two hands.

Originally posted by kamikz

I didn't say that, ESB did.....
What?

Originally posted by kamikz
And since when does Mace force crush people?
He quite clearly Force crushed Grievous at the end of CW.

Originally posted by kamikz
Show me proof. And CW overpowers characters like hell.....
The proof is in my above post, where I explain to you (for the third time) why books are not as canon as moving images.

Originally posted by kamikz
And I don't care, you are talking about CW Grievous, not CW cartoons Grievous only.
If you don't care, f*ck off out of my thread, and don't you dare presume to tell me what I am talking about. I am talking about Grievous as in the Clone Wars Cartoons. Nothing else.

Originally posted by kamikz
It is Grievous during the clone wars, which means Grievous during LOE as well.
No, it is Grievous during the Clone Wars cartoons. I've already explained why LOE is no longer a canon source, and so totally irrelevent to the discussion.

Originally posted by Darth Vious
http://www.toonami.co.uk/images/dynamic/1098965198365.jpg
http://ffmedia.ign.com/starwars/image/grievous_ep3.jpg
Two of my favorite characters here, so I can't be accused of bias towards either:
Grievous definitely has superior reactions and co-ordination, but, Dooku has much more experience and instructed Grievous (who clearly idolized Dooku as a mentor) so may be able to use that to his advantage (as Obi-Wan did in RotS)


Dooku already showed his superiority to Grievous during his spars in the Clone Wars

Originally posted by Council#13
Dooku already showed his superiority to Grievous during his spars in the Clone Wars
Sparring sessions where no one intends to kill each other is hardly the same as an all out fight...

True, but still, Grievous was beaten by Dooku. In LOE, he stated that at times Grievous was difficult to best

Sparring still fairly indicates one's skills. If they were both trying to kill eachother, the outcome would still have been the same.

Originally posted by Council#13
True, but still, Grievous was beaten by Dooku. In LOE, he stated that at times Grievous was difficult to best
Being beaten while being taught, and an all out fight are two different things. And as I said above, LOE is not as official canon as CW, because CW is a visual medium that tells the audience exactly what is going on. CW reduced LOE to the level of published fanfiction.

Originally posted by PurpleSaber
Sparring still fairly indicates one's skills. If they were both trying to kill eachother, the outcome would still have been the same.
As above, it does not. If Grievous decided to split his arms and come at Dooku with four lightsabers, do you really think Dooku would be able to block them all? Dooku did not use Soresu, his blocking tactics are quite different to the ones Obi-Was used (which Grievous was still able to overcome by increasing his attack speed) so Grievous would be able to adapt to counter his Makashi precision.

Originally posted by Darth Vious
Which book? LOE?
I've already explained why LOE is not a canon source. CW is an entirely visual medium. It tells its audience exactly what is happening, therefore it is the more canon source. It protrays events differently to LOE, and as a result of being more canon, renders LOE irrelevent and little more than published fanfiction.


They were not scared when they faced Grievous, as Ki-Adi had raised their spirits. As for them not being 'the best of the Jedi', Ki-Adi and Shaak Ti were on the Jedi Council!!! That's not a f*cking commisary where they sit around shooting the breeze, it's twelve people selected because of their skill! Ki-Adi was (apart from Yoda and Zet Jukassa) the only Jedi who realized that the troops were going to attack him (as he had turned when he realized they weren't following him, so saw they were aiming at him) and able to put up a fight (only to get overwhelmed by the number of attackers) He's hardly one of the most popular characters, but, his performance against Grievous and in RotS cannot be denied.


Just because they didn't want to reveal it, that doesn't mean that he didn't have the capability previously. This is a case once more of plot requirement governing actions, however, whatever way you want to look at it, Grievous was able to face up to five Jedi with only two lightsabers in two hands.


What?


He quite clearly Force crushed Grievous at the end of CW.


The proof is in my above post, where I explain to you (for the third time) why books are not as canon as moving images.


If you don't care, f*ck off out of my thread, and don't you dare presume to tell me what I am talking about. I am talking about Grievous as in the Clone Wars Cartoons. Nothing else.


No, it is Grievous during the Clone Wars cartoons. I've already explained why LOE is no longer a canon source, and so totally irrelevent to the discussion.

I'm sorry, I haven't seen proof except you saying it's not canon. Show me where this is said....

Watch that scene again, they were scared. One even lost it and ran right into him. Ki-Adi was calm and tried to calm them, but not everyone was calm. 2 of them even ran right into him with their swords above their heads, he could take them out with his feet alone. Do you think he could take a jedi normally unarmed?

Ok, and what says he is better with 4?

Ok so what makes you think that Mace Windu, jedi master and wise would force crush Grievous, and Dooku, sith lord with 20 years more experience with the force would not be able to do the same.....

You haven't proven a shit, you've said what you think but you haven't said how you got this proof.....

Yes, and Grievous in LOE and the cartoons is Grievous AT THE SAME TIME. He was the same in LOE as well, just because he wasn't a cartoon doesn't mean it is not at the same time cause it is.....

Originally posted by Darth Vious
Sparring sessions where no one intends to kill each other is hardly the same as an all out fight...


So you think that because it isn't a traning, Grievous is going to have a bigger chance against Dooku? Wrong, he is going to have less chance. Tell me, how will he deflect lightning, how will he deflect crush/grip, how will he deflect Dooku's force control (he could clearly send him to the force even when toying with him). Now, how can he beat Dooku in a sword battle when Dooku has trained him in saber battle, how can he beat Dooku who easily disarmed him. What can Grievous possibly do better because he intends to hit him, Dooku will clearly do the same....


And you don't swing a saber and hope that you don't hit the one your sparring with, your still trying to go through his defences. You think that when Grievous used his unortodox fighting technique (where he stands on his hands then do a large sweep with his foot) is actually going gently with Dooku. Please....



And WTF, Jedi use the force for defence, not offense. I could say that just the ending part there in the cartoons is un-canon because Mace used the force to kill/wound a living being.....

Originally posted by kamikz
I'm sorry, I haven't seen proof except you saying it's not canon. Show me where this is said....
I'm sure there are any number of threads and discussions here where the levels of canon are established, but I'm certainly not trawling through them to find one. To put the shoe on the other foot, what makes you so convinced that a book (not read by many) is a more official source of information than the cartoon (which would have been viewed by more fans)?


Originally posted by kamikz

Watch that scene again, they were scared. One even lost it and ran right into him. Ki-Adi was calm and tried to calm them, but not everyone was calm. 2 of them even ran right into him with their swords above their heads, he could take them out with his feet alone.
Ki-Adi managed to calm them more than you give him credit for, and the saber technique they used is irrelevent. Anakin charged at Dooku with his saber above his head...

Originally posted by kamikz
Ok, and what says he is better with 4?
That's so stupid I'm not even going to answer.

Originally posted by kamikz
Ok so what makes you think that Mace Windu, jedi master and wise would force crush Grievous, and Dooku, sith lord with 20 years more experience with the force would not be able to do the same.....
When Mace crushed Grivous, how close to him was he? It was a long range attack. In a duel, Dooku and Grievous would be closer together, and Dooku would most likely not use the Force in favor of the challenge of the saber duel, because that would appeal more to his aristocratic vanity.

Originally posted by kamikz
So you think that because it isn't a traning, Grievous is going to have a bigger chance against Dooku? Wrong, he is going to have less chance. Tell me, how will he deflect lightning, how will he deflect crush/grip, how will he deflect Dooku's force control (he could clearly send him to the force even when toying with him). Now, how can he beat Dooku in a sword battle when Dooku has trained him in saber battle, how can he beat Dooku who easily disarmed him. What can Grievous possibly do better because he intends to hit him, Dooku will clearly do the same....


And you don't swing a saber and hope that you don't hit the one your sparring with, your still trying to go through his defences. You think that when Grievous used his unortodox fighting technique (where he stands on his hands then do a large sweep with his foot) is actually going gently with Dooku. Please....



And WTF, Jedi use the force for defence, not offense. I could say that just the ending part there in the cartoons is un-canon because Mace used the force to kill/wound a living being.....
How old are you? (that is intended as a serious question, not an insult, and I will answer fully when you say how old you are.)

Originally posted by Darth Vious
I'm sure there are any number of threads and discussions here where the levels of canon are established, but I'm certainly not trawling through them to find one. To put the shoe on the other foot, what makes you so convinced that a book (not read by many) is a more official source of information than the cartoon (which would have been viewed by more fans)?



Ki-Adi managed to calm them more than you give him credit for, and the saber technique they used is irrelevent. Anakin charged at Dooku with his saber above his head...


That's so stupid I'm not even going to answer.


When Mace crushed Grivous, how close to him was he? It was a long range attack. In a duel, Dooku and Grievous would be closer together, and Dooku would most likely not use the Force in favor of the challenge of the saber duel, because that would appeal more to his aristocratic vanity.


How old are you? (that is intended as a serious question, not an insult, and I will answer fully when you say how old you are.)


I haven't found one. Just because maybe more people have watched the cartoons doesn't make it more canon. If you don't want to give me the source then forget that I'm gonna belive you....

Managed to calm them? Say that to the padawan who rushed out and got crushed. They ran without any kind of defence, he grabbed them with his feet, 2 of them. Either they were stupid or they were to scared to be focused.... And btw, he assaulted them when they weren't prepared, every single attack he made surprised them (they had never even heard about his style of fighting) and he broke their formation when he attacked....

4 lightsabers doesn't mean your better. For example, you can loose control more quickly. I'm better with 1 sword than with 2....


So what tells you that they are gonna be so close? And that doesn't really matter, he could just reach out with his hand and deed done. And how the hell can you be certain that Dooku won't use the force, he used it during their traning duel.... This is not Grievous lucky day vs Dooku being gentle, this is Dooku vs Grievous, all out....

Why should I even think about giving you out personal info?

Originally posted by kamikz
I haven't found one. Just because maybe more people have watched the cartoons doesn't make it more canon. If you don't want to give me the source then forget that I'm gonna belive you....
That wasn't exactly what I was meaning. I was meaning the way in which the information was given (moving picture rather than printed word) was the more canon. I was simply meaning with the book, that less people are likely to read it.

Originally posted by kamikz
4 lightsabers doesn't mean your better. For example, you can loose control more quickly. I'm better with 1 sword than with 2....

Not if you have cybernetic implants in your brain that enhance your reactions and coordination... Although Grievous was not a droid, he did have droid-like reflexes.

Originally posted by kamikz
So what tells you that they are gonna be so close? And that doesn't really matter, he could just reach out with his hand and deed done. And how the hell can you be certain that Dooku won't use the force, he used it during their traning duel....
As I said, it would appeal to the Count's aristocratic vanity to be able to beat Grievous' four sabers with his one.

Originally posted by kamikz
Why should I even think about giving you out personal info?
It's hardly a state secret! I'm 28. How old are you? The reason I ask, is because it will determine my answer to your previous post which I did not answer.

Originally posted by Darth Vious
That wasn't exactly what I was meaning. I was meaning the way in which the information was given (moving picture rather than printed word) was the more canon. I was simply meaning with the book, that less people are likely to read it.


Not if you have cybernetic implants in your brain that enhance your reactions and coordination... Although Grievous was not a droid, he did have droid-like reflexes.


As I said, it would appeal to the Count's aristocratic vanity to be able to beat Grievous' four sabers with his one.


It's hardly a state secret! I'm 28. How old are you? The reason I ask, is because it will determine my answer to your previous post which I did not answer.

So if more people read the parodys of Lord of the rings they would be accounted as more canon?


All droids cannot handle a lightsaber, Grievous has 4. He might be good, but where does it say that he is better with them. So yes, I agree that he is better in the CW, but I still don't think he can beat either Obi-Wan or Dooku....

How do you know this? Maybe he would punish Grievous for coming after him by frying his droid-ass with lightning....



You ask me this to determine how much real fighting experience I've had right?

Originally posted by kamikz
What the hell, the same goes for Dooku. He was defending, not attacking. If he wanted to he could have made short work of Grievous, that is pretty obvious... And how exactly would a real battle be different than this? Why would Grievous not use all of his skill if he was to be trained by Dooku? exactly, practice makes perfect, give a hundred and ten percent, it wasn't just for earth, they probably knew that too.

Originally posted by kamikz
So if more people read the parodys of Lord of the rings they would be accounted as more canon?
No, that wasn't what I meant. Just that a moving image is more definitive than a printed word as canon. It's, if not written somewhere about here, definitely an accepted concept that the movies (and cartoons) outweigh the novels as canon.

Originally posted by kamikz
All droids cannot handle a lightsaber, Grievous has 4. He might be good, but where does it say that he is better with them.
No, not all droids can handle a lightsaber. The point though, is that for Grievous' computer-enhanced brain, it makes no difference if he has one or four, as it would just be another task for his brain to deal with.

Originally posted by kamikz
So yes, I agree that he is better in the CW, but I still don't think he can beat either Obi-Wan or Dooku....
Okay, you agree that he is better in the CW. Do you think Obi-Wan could have stood up to him in that condition? Personally, I do not. To be honest, I don't think Dooku would either.

Originally posted by kamikz
How do you know this? Maybe he would punish Grievous for coming after him by frying his droid-ass with lightning....
Again, because of his arrogance and vanity. Dooku would want to show that he was superior with a saber, not through his knowledge of the Force, because that would not be a contest (as Grievous cannot use the Force.)

Originally posted by kamikz
You ask me this to determine how much real fighting experience I've had right?
Yes. The comment you made that I did not answer, suggested certain things about how duels are fought. As I said, I'm 28 (well, I will be 28 in 3 months) and have been studying martial arts and fencing since I was 8. That's twenty years that I've been studying them, and would be quite impossible for you to have more knowledge of fighting if I had been studying it longer than you'd been alive. But, until you say how old you are, I can't say that for certain, so I'll wait for you to answer, but that will be my answer.

Originally posted by Darth Vious
No, that wasn't what I meant. Just that a moving image is more definitive than a printed word as canon. It's, if not written somewhere about here, definitely an accepted concept that the movies (and cartoons) outweigh the novels as canon.


No, not all droids can handle a lightsaber. The point though, is that for Grievous' computer-enhanced brain, it makes no difference if he has one or four, as it would just be another task for his brain to deal with.


Okay, you agree that he is better in the CW. Do you think Obi-Wan could have stood up to him in that condition? Personally, I do not. To be honest, I don't think Dooku would either.


Again, because of his arrogance and vanity. Dooku would want to show that he was superior with a saber, not through his knowledge of the Force, because that would not be a contest (as Grievous cannot use the Force.)


Yes. The comment you made that I did not answer, suggested certain things about how duels are fought. As I said, I'm 28 (well, I will be 28 in 3 months) and have been studying martial arts and fencing since I was 8. That's twenty years that I've been studying them, and would be quite impossible for you to have more knowledge of fighting if I had been studying it longer than you'd been alive. But, until you say how old you are, I can't say that for certain, so I'll wait for you to answer, but that will be my answer.


Just because it moves it is more canon? A book is more precise, it shows thoughts, feelings, conditions, all sort of stuff. I don't see how it can be more cannon because it is a cartoon....

Sound logical, but proof?

Yes I belive Obi-Wan could have defeated him with a hard match and Dooku with quite ease.

Proof?

Yes you have more experience with martial arts, so you think that you having more fighting experience than me means that I am wrong or something? (Doesn't mean you have fought more real battles than me). Are you talking about when I said they run with the swords above their heads or what? I know you can do that but they have the force, they should be prepared, they should sense what he is going to do, they should parry it as they parry other lightsabers. They were clearly to scared to be focused.

to be honest i only trust the movies themselves to be cannon, nothing else, unless george lucas himself says it is, like in shatterpoint he wrote a prolouge and obviosly approved of its status in the movies.

Writing a prologue does not mean that Georgie puts it in the same level of canon as the movies and scripts...

Originally posted by kamikz
Just because it moves it is more canon? A book is more precise, it shows thoughts, feelings, conditions, all sort of stuff. I don't see how it can be more cannon because it is a cartoon....
A book still requires the reader's interaction to 'work', where the cartoon just presents everything regardless of if the person is even giving it their full attention. Hardly the best explanation, but the best I can come up with at the moment.

Originally posted by kamikz
Sound logical, but proof?
I have no proof. Do you have proof that it was more of a challenge for Grievous to use four lightsabers?


Originally posted by kamikz
Yes I belive Obi-Wan could have defeated him with a hard match and Dooku with quite ease.
Well, the novelization made it clear that Grievous overcame Obi-Wan's defence (and he was not in peak condition) If he still had his speed and jumping abilities (close to Ataru) I don't think Obi-Wan would have been able to defend against him as Grievous was much faster in CW to RotS. He didn't just slow down 'a bit' when Mace Force crushed him, he slowed down a lot

Originally posted by kamikz
Proof?
I can't provide a specific quote, but everything shown about Dooku showed how arrogant and what an elitist he was. That's just simple character identification, and doesn't need specifics to qualify it.

Originally posted by kamikz
Yes you have more experience with martial arts, so you think that you having more fighting experience than me means that I am wrong or something?
Well, to go to your original post, you said:
Originally posted by kamikz
So you think that because it isn't a traning, Grievous is going to have a bigger chance against Dooku? Wrong, he is going to have less chance. Tell me, how will he deflect lightning, how will he deflect crush/grip, how will he deflect Dooku's force control (he could clearly send him to the force even when toying with him). Now, how can he beat Dooku in a sword battle when Dooku has trained him in saber battle, how can he beat Dooku who easily disarmed him. What can Grievous possibly do better because he intends to hit him, Dooku will clearly do the same....


And you don't swing a saber and hope that you don't hit the one your sparring with, your still trying to go through his defences. You think that when Grievous used his unortodox fighting technique (where he stands on his hands then do a large sweep with his foot) is actually going gently with Dooku. Please....
Taking our ages (which you have still not revealed) and experience into account, do you seriously think that you know more about fighting and martial arts than I do? Do you seriously think that I cannot tell the difference between sparring and actual fighting? I'm not saying that you're wrong, but I am saying you're wrong if you think you know more about the subject than I do.

Originally posted by kamikz
Are you talking about when I said they run with the swords above their heads or what? I know you can do that but they have the force, they should be prepared, they should sense what he is going to do, they should parry it as they parry other lightsabers. They were clearly to scared to be focused.
I was refering to that in so much as Anakin did the same thing to Dooku (and Mace and Palpatine did that to each other) so using that to point out a weakness on the part of the Jedi is a flawed one. Also, don't forget that Grievous' brain was partially artificial (his reaction and coordination centers certainly were) It's possible (not saying it is, just that it's a possibility) that the part of his brain that guided his movements was not 'readable' by the Jedi. Don't forget, they did not know the Clones were going to attack them, because they were only following orders (so there was no malice for the Jedi to detect) It's possible that Grievous' brain was unreadable for similar reasons...

Originally posted by Legion_of_Maul
to be honest i only trust the movies themselves to be cannon, nothing else, unless george lucas himself says it is, like in shatterpoint he wrote a prolouge and obviosly approved of its status in the movies.
To be honest, having seen the scene cut from ESB where Luke is about to kiss Leia, I don't even rate Lucas' own word as canon as the movies, as that is a clear example of the finished movie overriding his intentions as a writer...

Originally posted by Darth Vious
A book still requires the reader's interaction to 'work', where the cartoon just presents everything regardless of if the person is even giving it their full attention. Hardly the best explanation, but the best I can come up with at the moment.


I have no proof. Do you have proof that it was more of a challenge for Grievous to use four lightsabers?



Well, the novelization made it clear that Grievous overcame Obi-Wan's defence (and he was not in peak condition) If he still had his speed and jumping abilities (close to Ataru) I don't think Obi-Wan would have been able to defend against him as Grievous was much faster in CW to RotS. He didn't just slow down 'a bit' when Mace Force crushed him, he slowed down a lot


I can't provide a specific quote, but everything shown about Dooku showed how arrogant and what an elitist he was. That's just simple character identification, and doesn't need specifics to qualify it.


Well, to go to your original post, you said:

Taking our ages (which you have still not revealed) and experience into account, do you seriously think that you know more about fighting and martial arts than I do? Do you seriously think that I cannot tell the difference between sparring and actual fighting? I'm not saying that you're wrong, but I am saying you're wrong if you think you know more about the subject than I do.


I was refering to that in so much as Anakin did the same thing to Dooku (and Mace and Palpatine did that to each other) so using that to point out a weakness on the part of the Jedi is a flawed one. Also, don't forget that Grievous' brain was partially artificial (his reaction and coordination centers certainly were) It's possible (not saying it is, just that it's a possibility) that the part of his brain that guided his movements was not 'readable' by the Jedi. Don't forget, they did not know the Clones were going to attack them, because they were only following orders (so there was no malice for the Jedi to detect) It's possible that Grievous' brain was unreadable for similar reasons...


So you cannot really back it up that it is more canon than LOE?


Well most of his battles he fought without them and instead used them as a more of a surprise weapon when he was in a saber lock with opponents. When Grievous had his four arms he could do some fancy moves yes, but when Grievous lost two of his arms he replied, "army or not, you must realize, you are doomed". That line would not have made any sense at all if he didn't imply that he could still beat Kenobi, even with the quick loss of his 2 arms...

How did he overcome his defence? He took both of his arms in less than 1-2 minutes. Even when no jedi knew he had been weakened they still said that Obi-Wan was the one who could beat him. In the novelization of the film, Mace Windu indicates that Obi-Wan Kenobi, with his absolute mastery of the defensive Soresu style of lightsaber combat, is the ideal agent to be sent to destroy Grievous. A barrage of lightsaber attacks from a non-force user like Grievous, even in close quarters, proved ineffective for the droid general. Despite Grievous' combat training mechanisms which serve to overcome an opponents patterns, Kenobi's perfect mastery of Soresu renders this skill obsolete since the simple function of Soresu is to deflect attacks of all sorts.
Windu also concludes that Grievous, for all of his power, lacks an appreciation for simplicity.
Obi pretty much knew his weakness.....

Even Dooku, the one who made Grievous into what he was in the CW, says that Grievous could not defeat Obi-Wan. This was indeed during the same time as the CW, so.....

And this has been said numerous times and I will say it again. The cartoons have a tendency of "overexaggerate" a persons ability. Since when could Anakin simply push away a block the size of the one Yoda lifted with struggeling in AOTC? Since when could Mace punch through durasteel and jump over 100m?

Thing is that Ki-Adi Mundi seemed to survive a hell of a long time against Grievous when he knew he was the only one left and Grievous had nothing to surprise him with anymore. (Plus 3 lightsabers). Ki-Adi was hardly in the top 10 of the order....


Good point, yes that could be it. But figuring that if they could not read his movements then many of the jedi would not last half as long as they did. I think it was fear that took over their minds and their emotions, but.......

Originally posted by kamikz
So you cannot really back it up that it is more canon than LOE?
Only because it is something that has been debated and accepted here almost as an unwritten rule that movies (and by extension cartoons) are more canon than novels and graphic novels.
To reverse the arguement, can you back up that LOE is more canon than CW?

Originally posted by kamikz
Well most of his battles he fought without them and instead used them as a more of a surprise weapon when he was in a saber lock with opponents. When Grievous had his four arms he could do some fancy moves yes, but when Grievous lost two of his arms he replied, "army or not, you must realize, you are doomed". That line would not have made any sense at all if he didn't imply that he could still beat Kenobi, even with the quick loss of his 2 arms...
I think that line was admittedly bragging on Grievous' part, but the points you've illustrated that he used them more as a surprize weapon. That does not mean however, that they did not also give him more of an advantage, because obviously four lightsabers is better than two if you have the capability to wield them (would be interesting to see Dex waving four lightsabers around....) )

Originally posted by kamikz

How did he overcome his defence?
In the novelization, it explains that he kept increasing the speed of the rotations of his sabers, so the amount of hits per second increased. When he got to a certain speed, it simply overcame Obi-Wan's ability to keep up with in order to block, leading onto the next point...

Originally posted by kamikz
He took both of his arms in less than 1-2 minutes.
The first hand was taken because rather than blocking the saber, Obi-Wan instead positioned his own so that Grievous arm would pass against it, effectively making him sever his own hand. If you look at Grievous' body language after the first hand severed (I admit, it's hard to read emotion in a being who's face is essentially a mask) it istotal "WTF!!!" surprize at what happened.

Originally posted by kamikz
Even when no jedi knew he had been weakened they still said that Obi-Wan was the one who could beat him. In the novelization of the film, Mace Windu indicates that Obi-Wan Kenobi, with his absolute mastery of the defensive Soresu style of lightsaber combat, is the ideal agent to be sent to destroy Grievous. A barrage of lightsaber attacks from a non-force user like Grievous, even in close quarters, proved ineffective for the droid general. Despite Grievous' combat training mechanisms which serve to overcome an opponents patterns, Kenobi's perfect mastery of Soresu renders this skill obsolete since the simple function of Soresu is to deflect attacks of all sorts.
Windu also concludes that Grievous, for all of his power, lacks an appreciation for simplicity.
Obi pretty much knew his weakness.....
Mace had to have suspected that his Force crush had some effect, and as for them sending Obi-Wan, I agree, his skills were the ones most suited to taking down Grievous.

Originally posted by kamikz

Even Dooku, the one who made Grievous into what he was in the CW, says that Grievous could not defeat Obi-Wan. This was indeed during the same time as the CW, so.....
In a less canon version of the events of that time period, so I do not recognize that statement.

Originally posted by kamikz
And this has been said numerous times and I will say it again. The cartoons have a tendency of "overexaggerate" a persons ability. Since when could Anakin simply push away a block the size of the one Yoda lifted with struggeling in AOTC? Since when could Mace punch through durasteel and jump over 100m?
I disagree. I think that the cartoons were the perfect medium for showing the true extent of a Jedi's powers and abilities. It was able to manipulate the characters in a way that would have looked comical if it was done with live actors. Just because those abilities were not then displayed in the movie, it did not mean that the characters were unable to do them anymore. The events of the Clone Wars are canon events, therefore, the feats that made those events happen must also be canon for the events to have even taken place.

Originally posted by kamikz
Thing is that Ki-Adi Mundi seemed to survive a hell of a long time against Grievous when he knew he was the only one left and Grievous had nothing to surprise him with anymore. (Plus 3 lightsabers).
Actually, there's no way of knowing how long Ki-Adi was fighting Grievous. The opening sequence where the clones are 'suiting up' and approaching the ship could just as likely have been happening when Grievous pounced on Sha'a Gi.

Originally posted by kamikz
Ki-Adi was hardly in the top 10 of the order....
He was one of only three Jedi to actively defend himself from the clone's attack following Order 66. They were Ki-Adi, Zett Jukassa, and Master Yoda. The others were simply gunned down with no attempt of defence on the part of the Jedi. Untill CW and RotS, Ki-Adi was actually my second to worst character (worst being C-3PO) but those installments showed him to be a much more skilled warrior than I'd initially suspected.

Originally posted by kamikz
Good point, yes that could be it. But figuring that if they could not read his movements then many of the jedi would not last half as long as they did. I think it was fear that took over their minds and their emotions, but.......
I don't think fear would have overtake Aayla, Shaak Ti or Ki-Adi as it did Sha'a Gi, as they were too experienced for that. It could be that Grievous' actions were unreadable to them (for the reason I suggested) or, it could just be that they could read his movements, but he was just too fast for them to block (as was eventually the case with Obi-Wan)

Only because it is something that has been debated and accepted here almost as an unwritten rule that movies (and by extension cartoons) are more canon than novels and graphic novels.
To reverse the arguement, can you back up that LOE is more canon than CW?

Because in LOE Yoda doesn't use the Force to throw 2 starships around like rag dolls. And Mace doesn't use a Force Push to throw back hundreds of Battle Droids.

In the novelization, it explains that he kept increasing the speed of the rotations of his sabers, so the amount of hits per second increased. When he got to a certain speed, it simply overcame Obi-Wan's ability to keep up with in order to block, leading onto the next point...

Ki-Adi, who faced General Grievous and had no knowledge of Mace's force crush, was the one who suggested they send Obi-Wan to face General Grievous.

The first hand was taken because rather than blocking the saber, Obi-Wan instead positioned his own so that Grievous arm would pass against it, effectively making him sever his own hand. If you look at Grievous' body language after the first hand severed (I admit, it's hard to read emotion in a being who's face is essentially a mask) it istotal "WTF!!!" surprize at what happened.

So how is that helping your cause? All it is now is that Obi-Wan is smart enough just to put his lightsaber where it needs to be and let Grievous do the rest.

Mace had to have suspected that his Force crush had some effect, and as for them sending Obi-Wan, I agree, his skills were the ones most suited to taking down Grievous.

Mace didn't suspect nothing. The fact is all that did was cause Grievous to start coughing. You have no proof that this weakened Grievous.

In a less canon version of the events of that time period, so I do not recognize that statement.

Mace Windu and Ki-Adi both said Obi-Wan was perfect to fight Grievous and even Dooku said that Grievous wouldn't be able to defeat Master Kenobi.

I disagree. I think that the cartoons were the perfect medium for showing the true extent of a Jedi's powers and abilities. It was able to manipulate the characters in a way that would have looked comical if it was done with live actors. Just because those abilities were not then displayed in the movie, it did not mean that the characters were unable to do them anymore. The events of the Clone Wars are canon events, therefore, the feats that made those events happen must also be canon for the events to have even taken place.

What? The CW makes all the characters overpowered. If Yoda can throw around 2 starships like rag dolls why is it he had trouble throwing 1 Senate Pod? The events happened but the way they happened are not canon.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Only because it is something that has been debated and accepted here almost as an unwritten rule that movies (and by extension cartoons) are more canon than novels and graphic novels.
To reverse the arguement, can you back up that LOE is more canon than CW?

Because in LOE Yoda doesn't use the Force to throw 2 starships around like rag dolls. And Mace doesn't use a Force Push to throw back hundreds of Battle Droids.

In the novelization, it explains that he kept increasing the speed of the rotations of his sabers, so the amount of hits per second increased. When he got to a certain speed, it simply overcame Obi-Wan's ability to keep up with in order to block, leading onto the next point...

Ki-Adi, who faced General Grievous and had no knowledge of Mace's force crush, was the one who suggested they send Obi-Wan to face General Grievous.

The first hand was taken because rather than blocking the saber, Obi-Wan instead positioned his own so that Grievous arm would pass against it, effectively making him sever his own hand. If you look at Grievous' body language after the first hand severed (I admit, it's hard to read emotion in a being who's face is essentially a mask) it istotal "WTF!!!" surprize at what happened.

So how is that helping your cause? All it is now is that Obi-Wan is smart enough just to put his lightsaber where it needs to be and let Grievous do the rest.

Mace had to have suspected that his Force crush had some effect, and as for them sending Obi-Wan, I agree, his skills were the ones most suited to taking down Grievous.

Mace didn't suspect nothing. The fact is all that did was cause Grievous to start coughing. You have no proof that this weakened Grievous.

In a less canon version of the events of that time period, so I do not recognize that statement.

Mace Windu and Ki-Adi both said Obi-Wan was perfect to fight Grievous and even Dooku said that Grievous wouldn't be able to defeat Master Kenobi.

I disagree. I think that the cartoons were the perfect medium for showing the true extent of a Jedi's powers and abilities. It was able to manipulate the characters in a way that would have looked comical if it was done with live actors. Just because those abilities were not then displayed in the movie, it did not mean that the characters were unable to do them anymore. The events of the Clone Wars are canon events, therefore, the feats that made those events happen must also be canon for the events to have even taken place.

What? The CW makes all the characters overpowered. If Yoda can throw around 2 starships like rag dolls why is it he had trouble throwing 1 Senate Pod? The events happened but the way they happened are not canon.

That is complete utter bullshit. Grievous stood at almost 7 feet tall in CW, after the incident when the pussy with the purple saber crushed his lungs, he stood hunched over at the level of Skywalker and Kenobi. He was indeed weakened. He went from dodging ship blasts to coughing up like a pot-head. They happened but not that way? and you say my "Dooku was going easy" debate is bullshit?

Originally posted by Darth Vious
Only because it is something that has been debated and accepted here almost as an unwritten rule that movies (and by extension cartoons) are more canon than novels and graphic novels.
To reverse the arguement, can you back up that LOE is more canon than CW?


I think that line was admittedly bragging on Grievous' part, but the points you've illustrated that he used them more as a surprize weapon. That does not mean however, that they did not also give him more of an advantage, because obviously four lightsabers is better than two if you have the capability to wield them (would be interesting to see Dex waving four lightsabers around....) )


In the novelization, it explains that he kept increasing the speed of the rotations of his sabers, so the amount of hits per second increased. When he got to a certain speed, it simply overcame Obi-Wan's ability to keep up with in order to block, leading onto the next point...


The first hand was taken because rather than blocking the saber, Obi-Wan instead positioned his own so that Grievous arm would pass against it, effectively making him sever his own hand. If you look at Grievous' body language after the first hand severed (I admit, it's hard to read emotion in a being who's face is essentially a mask) it istotal "WTF!!!" surprize at what happened.


Mace had to have suspected that his Force crush had some effect, and as for them sending Obi-Wan, I agree, his skills were the ones most suited to taking down Grievous.


In a less canon version of the events of that time period, so I do not recognize that statement.


I disagree. I think that the cartoons were the perfect medium for showing the true extent of a Jedi's powers and abilities. It was able to manipulate the characters in a way that would have looked comical if it was done with live actors. Just because those abilities were not then displayed in the movie, it did not mean that the characters were unable to do them anymore. The events of the Clone Wars are canon events, therefore, the feats that made those events happen must also be canon for the events to have even taken place.


Actually, there's no way of knowing how long Ki-Adi was fighting Grievous. The opening sequence where the clones are 'suiting up' and approaching the ship could just as likely have been happening when Grievous pounced on Sha'a Gi.


He was one of only three Jedi to actively defend himself from the clone's attack following Order 66. They were Ki-Adi, Zett Jukassa, and Master Yoda. The others were simply gunned down with no attempt of defence on the part of the Jedi. Untill CW and RotS, Ki-Adi was actually my second to worst character (worst being C-3PO) but those installments showed him to be a much more skilled warrior than I'd initially suspected.


I don't think fear would have overtake Aayla, Shaak Ti or Ki-Adi as it did Sha'a Gi, as they were too experienced for that. It could be that Grievous' actions were unreadable to them (for the reason I suggested) or, it could just be that they could read his movements, but he was just too fast for them to block (as was eventually the case with Obi-Wan)



I thought it had been established that the movies were canon, not anything that is similar to a movie. Then games would be taken over novels and books too....


Meh I guess there is a possibility that he is better, but I still stand by my surprise state...


Well that wasn't really what I saw, and Grievous did move his arms and his sabers fast, as fast as he did in the cartoon, the only difference is his body was not as fast. And Obi exploited his weakness, lack of simplicity. Thing is that Obi could probably do the same to that Grievous, and I don't think that Grievous expression has to mean anything. I think anyone would get a weird facial expression when someone cuts their arms off.....


Again, this is not established....



Since when has Yoda been able to toss starships around when he could barley lift a big tube in AOTC. And since when could Anakin toss those things around like rocks? Mace could not defeat an army like that, if he could he would have done so in the battle of Geonosis. It contradicts with what they are able to do in the movies, hugley exaggerating it. Saying that it would be silly to have actors doing it is the same as saying that Grievous didn't use 4 because they did not want to revile it.



Were there any reinforcements on that planet? And every episode seems to tell what happens during that time, so I don't think it's like that, but I don't know.....


So he could hear that the clone troopers did not follow him when he ran, and he could barley defend himself. Does this make him a good fighter? Hardly.....



So you agree that the others were taken by fear? And Shaak Ti kept on screaming "help me Ki-Adi" and stuff, and her expression when he took out the others were not exactly what I call relived.....

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Because in LOE Yoda doesn't use the Force to throw 2 starships around like rag dolls. And Mace doesn't use a Force Push to throw back hundreds of Battle Droids.
That is not answering the question of what makes LOE more canon than CW, that is just showing how the events differ. Try again.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Ki-Adi, who faced General Grievous and had no knowledge of Mace's force crush, was the one who suggested they send Obi-Wan to face General Grievous.
So what? That's just a case of selecting the best person for the job. What is so unusual about that?

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
So how is that helping your cause? All it is now is that Obi-Wan is smart enough just to put his lightsaber where it needs to be and let Grievous do the rest.
It's showing that in his weakened condition, Grievous still overcame Obi-Wan'd defence. Had he been as he was in Clone Wars, he would have butchered Obi-Wan, but, that is not actually the debate.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Mace didn't suspect nothing. The fact is all that did was cause Grievous to start coughing. You have no proof that this weakened Grievous.
Pyro has already answered you, but I shall also do likewise. Asside from the difference in posture, Grievous was much faster and more agile in CW than he was in RotS, and less capable of duelling than he had been, ergo, he was weakened, and the clear cause of that was Mace's Force Crush which, not only made him start coughing, but clearly mangled his body.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Mace Windu and Ki-Adi both said Obi-Wan was perfect to fight Grievous and even Dooku said that Grievous wouldn't be able to defeat Master Kenobi.
Mace and Ki-Adi did, but the Dooku comment is from LOE, so irrelevent. The thread title clearly says CW Grievous, not LOE Grievous.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest

What? The CW makes all the characters overpowered. If Yoda can throw around 2 starships like rag dolls why is it he had trouble throwing 1 Senate Pod?
Who said he had trouble doing it? He looked fairly comfortable doing so. Also, if there was any difficulty, perhaps that was because the ships were already descending, and he just altered their path to colide, but the senate pod was descending, and he had to stop it's motion and then reverse it.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
The events happened but the way they happened are not canon.
That is utter bullshit! If the way the events happened is not canon, then neither are the events themselves. The events that happened however are canon as they lead directly into RotS, so the acts that made the events occur must also be canon.

Originally posted by kamikz
I thought it had been established that the movies were canon, not anything that is similar to a movie. Then games would be taken over novels and books too....
The movies are the highest form of canon, with cartoons following, as they too, are a full presentation. Games are lesser canon because they involve player participation, so not always exactly the same. Books for similar reason, that they involve reader participation are also lesser canon, as they require the reader to imagine what is going on, where the movies (and cartoons) tell the viewer in no uncertain terms what is going on.

Originally posted by kamikz
Meh I guess there is a possibility that he is better, but I still stand by my surprise state...
I'm not counting out surprize all together, after all, that's why he deployed the second arms against the Ithorian Jedi and his fuzzy chum, but, when deployed, the second arms would also have provided additional 'firepower' at his disposal.

Originally posted by kamikz
Well that wasn't really what I saw,
So watch it again. And again. And again. It's very hard to notice in the movie, but when you know from the novelization precicely how Obi-Wan severed the hand, then the motion of his blade and Grievous' arm become more identifyable in the movie.

Originally posted by kamikz
the only difference is his body was not as fast.
Personally, I think the speed he was rotating the sabers at was faster than in Rots. Had his body been as fast, then he would have been flipping all over the place like he was in CW, and that would have totally butchered Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by kamikz
And Obi exploited his weakness, lack of simplicity.
Absolutely. However, had Grievous been at full functionality, I don't think that weakness would have been as easy to exploit. Grievous would have been as likely to use one of his feet to whip Obi-Wan's face into the ground as he would be to cut him with one of his sabers.

Originally posted by kamikz
and I don't think that Grievous expression has to mean anything. I think anyone would get a weird facial expression when someone cuts their arms off.....
It means what it means, that he was totally surprized by what happened, and had clearly not expected it to happen from his assessment of Obi-Wan's defences (the novelization would probably clarify better, but I haven't read that part fully)

Originally posted by kamikz
Again, this is not established....
It was established in CW that Mace crushed Grievous and saw him collapse against the bulkhead of the shuttle coughing.

Originally posted by kamikz
Since when has Yoda been able to toss starships around when he could barley lift a big tube in AOTC. And since when could Anakin toss those things around like rocks? Mace could not defeat an army like that, if he could he would have done so in the battle of Geonosis. It contradicts with what they are able to do in the movies, hugley exaggerating it.
My above post covers the possibility as to why Yoda might have found it harder to manipulate an object's direction to a standstill than ones already at a standstill or already moving in the direction he wanted.
As for the other aspect of your comment, CW takes place after AotC. It has been acknowledged that Anakin and Obi-Wan grew in strength and competence in between the two films, it is only reasonable to conclude that Mace and Yoda would also improve.

Originally posted by kamikz
Were there any reinforcements on that planet? And every episode seems to tell what happens during that time, so I don't think it's like that, but I don't know.....
There's no real way of knowing either way, but it's certainly a possibility.

Originally posted by kamikz
So he could hear that the clone troopers did not follow him when he ran, and he could barley defend himself. Does this make him a good fighter? Hardly.....
So deflecting automatic fire from half a dozen sources is easy?? Even Grievous wasn't able to deflect the blaster fire, he was just able to move fast enough to avoid it (Probably using a system similar to the Gun Kata) The fact that he was able to stand up to Grievous in peak condition at all makes him a good fighter.

Originally posted by kamikz
So you agree that the others were taken by fear? And Shaak Ti kept on screaming "help me Ki-Adi" and stuff, and her expression when he took out the others were not exactly what I call relived.....
Bravery is not a case of not being scared, it's a case of being scared but still doing what is required, which is what they did. 'Kept screaming'?? She called out twice, and even then, she was hardly screaming.

Originally posted by kamikz
and her expression when he took out the others were not exactly what I call relived.....
Would you not be shocked if you saw a Jedi cut down by a non-Force Sensitive wielding a lightsaber? And then slam someone face first into the floor and then do a handstand and keep duelling with their feet? Fact is, Grievous' abilities in CW were nothing short of phenomenal.

Originally posted by Darth Vious
Being beaten while being taught, and an all out fight are two different things. And as I said above, LOE is not as official canon as CW, because CW is a visual medium that tells the audience exactly what is going on. CW reduced LOE to the level of published fanfiction.


As above, it does not. If Grievous decided to split his arms and come at Dooku with four lightsabers, do you really think Dooku would be able to block them all? Dooku did not use Soresu, his blocking tactics are quite different to the ones Obi-Was used (which Grievous was still able to overcome by increasing his attack speed) so Grievous would be able to adapt to counter his Makashi precision.

1. Touche. You win that round.
2. In CW, he was using 4 arms, and using his feet, flipping around, interchanging weapons between hands and feet.

Originally posted by Council#13
1. Touche. You win that round.
*Bows*

Originally posted by Council#13
1. Touche. You win that round.
2. In CW, he was using 4 arms, and using his feet, flipping around, interchanging weapons between hands and feet.
Indeed he was, and the speed with which he did those makes me suspect it would overwhelm Dooku's defences.

Originally posted by Darth Vious
*Bows*


Indeed he was, and the speed with which he did those makes me suspect it would overwhelm Dooku's defences.

Qui? Oh well, Dooku just Force Pushed Grievous or something and won.

Originally posted by Council#13
Qui? Oh well, Dooku just Force Pushed Grievous or something and won.
But Grievous was able to dodge Force blasts in CW (Mace's was a lucky shot, where Grievous didn't really have anywhere to dodge to

Who said he had trouble doing it? He looked fairly comfortable doing so. Also, if there was any difficulty, perhaps that was because the ships were already descending, and he just altered their path to colide, but the senate pod was descending, and he had to stop it's motion and then reverse it.

No he pushed them aside and then chuncked them together with ease. Yoda had to dodge all but one of the Senate Pods Palpatine was throwing at him.

And Geonosis backs me up because there was about as many Battle Droids there as in CW where Mace whipped out all of them by himself without a lightsaber.

Now tell me why Yoda and Mace needed a droid army? Why does Mace even need a lightsaber when he's whipping out Super Battle Droids with his hands only?

Not only does Yoda manage to push two Landers into one another but also he manages to lift dozens, maybe hundreds, of Destroyer Droids and even pushes an AAT back into a Lander and has another one crash into it.

And yet Yoda dodge and avoided all but one Senate Pod. Not only that but Yoda and Mace Force Pushed hundreds of Battle Droids back and yet he didn't do any of these things when him and Obi-Wan went attacking the Jedi Temple.

Originally posted by Darth Vious
But Grievous was able to dodge Force blasts in CW (Mace's was a lucky shot, where Grievous didn't really have anywhere to dodge to

Apparently Dooku was very accurate with his Force Pushes, or faster.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
No he pushed them aside and then chuncked them together with ease. Yoda had to dodge all but one of the Senate Pods Palpatine was throwing at him.
Who said he had to. He stopped one, he could have stopped any of them if he had chosen to, but at that point in the fight, that was not his strategy, as he was clearly still trying to get to Palpatine with his lightsaber.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
And Geonosis backs me up because there was about as many Battle Droids there as in CW where Mace whipped out all of them by himself without a lightsaber.
As I said before: If Anakin and Obi-Wan can grow and improve between AotC and RotS, why can Mace and Yoda also not improve? Answer the question.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Now tell me why Yoda and Mace needed a droid army? Why does Mace even need a lightsaber when he's whipping out Super Battle Droids with his hands only?
He clearly doesn't need a lightsaber to do so, but it makes it easier, and people do tend to use tools that make their tasks easier... What are you trying to prove?

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Not only does Yoda manage to push two Landers into one another but also he manages to lift dozens, maybe hundreds, of Destroyer Droids and even pushes an AAT back into a Lander and has another one crash into it.
He does indeed. There's nothing to suggest in RotS that he couldn't still do that, the plot simply did not require it of him.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
And yet Yoda dodge and avoided all but one Senate Pod.
As I said above, that's because at that point in the fight, he was trying to get to Palpatine with his lightsaber, not best him in a Force contest.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Not only that but Yoda and Mace Force Pushed hundreds of Battle Droids back and yet he didn't do any of these things when him and Obi-Wan went attacking the Jedi Temple.
I don't know, I didn't write the scene. Probably because someone swinging a lightsaber about is more exciting than watching someone use the Force to effortlessly clear a path through the clone troopers.

Originally posted by Council#13
Apparently Dooku was very accurate with his Force Pushes, or faster.
Possibly. I definitely think that in a full out blade on blade duel, Dooku would have a hard time defeating Grievous, if he was even capable of doing so, and as I mentioned above, Dooku would most likely not use the Force, because it would appeal to his aristocratic vanity and arrogance to be able to best Grievous' four lightsabers as it would be a challenge to his own skills, and ultimately prove his superiority over Grievous (Who Dooku was actually repulsed by, according to the RotS novelizaton)

As I said before: If Anakin and Obi-Wan can grow and improve between AotC and RotS, why can Mace and Yoda also not improve? Answer the question.

Because Yoda who is 800+ doesn't have much to learn or to improve on. Same for Mace. Obi-Wan and Anakin on the other hand still had much to learn and much to improve on.

He clearly doesn't need a lightsaber to do so, but it makes it easier, and people do tend to use tools that make their tasks easier... What are you trying to prove?

So why is it that if the clones didn't show up on Geonosis that all the Jedi would have been killed? Mace is called OVERPOWERED in the Clone Wars cartoon series.

I don't know, I didn't write the scene. Probably because someone swinging a lightsaber about is more exciting than watching someone use the Force to effortlessly clear a path through the clone troopers.

Because Yoda cannot do that. The events that happened in CW are canon but not the way in which they happened.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Because Yoda who is 800+ doesn't have much to learn or to improve on. Same for Mace. Obi-Wan and Anakin on the other hand still had much to learn and much to improve on.
Bullshit. There is always more to learn. Only a fool thinks they know everything.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
So why is it that if the clones didn't show up on Geonosis that all the Jedi would have been killed?
Well, there's good old fashioned plot necessity. And, maybe Mace had not developed his 'crowd sweeping' skills yet...

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Mace is called OVERPOWERED in the Clone Wars cartoon series.
By who? People who refuse to accept CW as canon? The CW does not exagerate anyone's abilities, as said before, it is the perfect medium for showing a Jedi's true capabilities as moving live actors in such a manner would look stupid.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest

Because Yoda cannot do that.
How do you know Yoda cannot do that?

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
The events that happened in CW are canon but not the way in which they happened.
For the second (or is it third) time, that is utter bullshit! If the events of CW are canon, then so are the feats that made the events happen. If the events of CW happened (but not as depicted in CW) how did those events happen?? The fact is the feats made the events happen, and the events are canon, so the feats are also canon.

Originally posted by Darth Vious
Possibly. I definitely think that in a full out blade on blade duel, Dooku would have a hard time defeating Grievous, if he was even capable of doing so, and as I mentioned above, Dooku would most likely not use the Force, because it would appeal to his aristocratic vanity and arrogance to be able to best Grievous' four lightsabers as it would be a challenge to his own skills, and ultimately prove his superiority over Grievous (Who Dooku was actually repulsed by, according to the RotS novelizaton)

Actually, that was LOE, which, according to you, isn't considered as Canon as the Clone Wars.

Originally posted by Council#13
Actually, that was LOE, which, according to you, isn't considered as Canon as the Clone Wars.
Sorry, I thought you were just refering to Dooku's skill in general, not a specific example.

If you were refering to Dooku's distaste for Grievous, that was mentioned in the novelization of RotS.

Oh really? My bad. He also mentioned it in LOE.

Originally posted by Council#13
Oh really? My bad. He also mentioned it in LOE.
Yup. I haven't read the entire novel, literally just flicked through the pages in a book store, so a few bits sank in here and there.
(Haven't even touched LOE in a bookstore)

Oh. Like the "Death of Count Dooku" chapter?

Originally posted by Council#13
Oh. Like the "Death of Count Dooku" chapter?
I couldn't tell you the titles. As I said, I literally fanned through the pages. I have a semi-photographic memory, and a few of them were open long enough to scan them, others just flipped past. A few things sank in, most of it didn't

....I see

so basicly you ignored the whole thing?

Originally posted by Darth Vious
Bullshit. There is always more to learn. Only a fool thinks they know everything.


Well, there's good old fashioned plot necessity. And, maybe Mace had not developed his 'crowd sweeping' skills yet...


By who? People who refuse to accept CW as canon? The CW does not exagerate anyone's abilities, as said before, it is the perfect medium for showing a Jedi's true capabilities as moving live actors in such a manner would look stupid.


How do you know Yoda cannot do that?


For the second (or is it third) time, that is utter bullshit! If the events of CW are canon, then so are the feats that made the events happen. If the events of CW happened (but not as depicted in CW) how did those events happen?? The fact is the feats made the events happen, and the events are canon, so the feats are also canon.

So you are saying that someone who has been training 800 years would somehow get this grand energy boast in a couple of years? I doubt that.

And why is it Yoda and Obi-Wan had to use their lightsabers to go through the Clone Troopers by dodging and avoiding blaster bolts when Yoda managed to lift hundreds of Destroyer Droids?

Fact is you consider Clone Wars micro-series to be canon and yet I believe Labyrinth of Evil is canon for 2 reasons.

1.) It is called the direct prequel to the movie
2.) The writer had direct assess to the movie's script

Yeah, and all this "Grievous moves so fast in the cartoons and so slow in ROTS", well, everyone in the cartoons moves like they had force speed on all the time. If you are to compare Mace Windu fighting on Dantooine and then vs Palpatine you will se such huge difference it is sick. Was Mace wounded too?

Originally posted by kamikz
Yeah, and all this "Grievous moves so fast in the cartoons and so slow in ROTS", well, everyone in the cartoons moves like they had force speed on all the time. If you are to compare Mace Windu fighting on Dantooine and then vs Palpatine you will se such huge difference it is sick. Was Mace wounded too?

I guess he was. I also guess Ki-Adi must have been wounded because in ROTS he was killed by a few Clone Troopers but if the Clone Wars micro-series shows the Jedi at what they should be like then Ki-Adi could have easily killed all of them without any problem.

Originally posted by Legion_of_Maul
so basicly you ignored the whole thing? ?
I never bought the book to read, I just picked it up in the store and flipped the pages.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
So you are saying that someone who has been training 800 years would somehow get this grand energy boast in a couple of years? I doubt that.
Who said it was such a great 'boost'? Did you see Yoda doing anything in TMP? Did he do much in AotC? Just because the plot did not put him in situations to use those abilities, it doesn't mean he didn't have them.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Fact is you consider Clone Wars micro-series to be canon and yet I believe Labyrinth of Evil is canon for 2 reasons.

1.) It is called the direct prequel to the movie
2.) The writer had direct assess to the movie's script
I'm sorry, but in the Dooku thread, it has been established that the only SW books that are canon are the novelizations. EU novels are not canon, so they are little more than published fan fiction.
Also, even if LOE was a novelization (which it isn't) CW would still outrank it as canon for being a movie rather than a book

Originally posted by kamikz
Yeah, and all this "Grievous moves so fast in the cartoons and so slow in ROTS", well, everyone in the cartoons moves like they had force speed on all the time. If you are to compare Mace Windu fighting on Dantooine and then vs Palpatine you will se such huge difference it is sick. Was Mace wounded too?
As I said above with regards to Yoda. Mace had no need to fight as fast in RotS as he did in CW, hence why he was not moving so fast. Just because he didn't move that fast, it didn't mean that he couldn't if he wanted to. Grievous, on the other hand, was clearly damaged, which explains why he was neither standing as tall as he had nor moving as fast.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
I guess he was. I also guess Ki-Adi must have been wounded because in ROTS he was killed by a few Clone Troopers but if the Clone Wars micro-series shows the Jedi at what they should be like then Ki-Adi could have easily killed all of them without any problem.
Don't be facetious.
In TPM, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were faced with two droidekas, and Qui-Gon said "It's a standoff" (meaning neither side could win) Ki-Adi was shot at by half a dozen clone troopers, which is way more firepower than two droidekas, so it's no wonder he was overcome by them. Also, there were only two Jedi to actually be able to defend himself against the clone troopers (even if it was just for a few seconds) when they opened fire: Ki-Adi and Zett Jukassa (Yoda killed them before they could fire on him)

They didn't say "it's a standoff" because of the droidekas firepower, even padawan Obi-Wan easily deflected that, it was in respons to Obi's "they have shield generators". They couldn't get passed them and more droids were coming.....

We see Saesse Tiin deflect a room full of fire with ease, much, much more than Ki-Adi faced. Mace said himself in a book that no jedi could deflect 14 blaster bolts, in CW they block like 20 at once....

Originally posted by kamikz
They didn't say "it's a standoff" because of the droidekas firepower, even padawan Obi-Wan easily deflected that, it was in respons to Obi's "they have shield generators". They couldn't get passed them and more droids were coming.....
that's a possibility, I hadn't considered the droideka's shield generators...

Originally posted by kamikz
We see Saesse Tiin deflect a room full of fire with ease, much, much more than Ki-Adi faced.
Who was Saesse Tiin facing?
Battle droids.
In AotC, when Obi-Wan was shown around the cloning facility, it was clearly said that the Clones were "far superior to droids..."

Originally posted by kamikz
Mace said himself in a book that no jedi could deflect 14 blaster bolts, in CW they block like 20 at once....
In a book??!! Woweeee!!!! The Dooku's skill thread has firmly established that books are little more than published fanfiction compared to the canon of movies and their novelizations. CW is considered canon, so Seassee's action would overrule that book (and the fact Ki-Adi was facing clones means he was facing more competent opponents than Saesse)

Originally posted by Darth Vious
that's a possibility, I hadn't considered the droideka's shield generators...


Who was Saesse Tiin facing?
Battle droids.
In AotC, when Obi-Wan was shown around the cloning facility, it was clearly said that the Clones were "far superior to droids..."


In a book??!! Woweeee!!!! The Dooku's skill thread has firmly established that books are little more than published fanfiction compared to the canon of movies and their novelizations. CW is considered canon, so Seassee's action would overrule that book (and the fact Ki-Adi was facing clones means he was facing more competent opponents than Saesse)



Well that's the case....


He was facing battledroids and SBD, and they were firing. It doesn't matter if they are worse (though it is said that the battle droids had very high accuracy, at least SBD), when a whole corridor is filled with blaster fire you are not likley to parry it easily.... Besides, those who said that they were highly superior didn't know about the new droids in the Confederacy, and maybe they ment also that the clones weren't controlled by a computer and could think for themselfs....


No, you haven't established proof, not in that thread either...

Originally posted by kamikz
He was facing battledroids and SBD, and they were firing. It doesn't matter if they are worse (though it is said that the battle droids had very high accuracy, at least SBD), when a whole corridor is filled with blaster fire you are not likley to parry it easily.... Besides, those who said that they were highly superior didn't know about the new droids in the Confederacy, and maybe they ment also that the clones weren't controlled by a computer and could think for themselfs....

SBD?? SOrry, I don't understand that...
How do you know that the Kaminoans didn't know about the new droids? The order ultimately had Sith backing, and they knew about the ICS battledroids, so it would make sense that the clones were trained to overcome them (which they clearly did in many battles in RotS) There is no 'maybe', I forget which Kaminoan said it, but they clearly said "Clones are far superior to droids." which settles the debate.

Originally posted by kamikz
No, you haven't established proof, not in that thread either...
You might want to re-check that thread, as I wasn't the one who posted about the level of canon, but it clearly says, that EU books are not canon. Novelization books are canon (but only where they do not contradict the films) and I've already shown what arguing that Lucas' intentions outweighing the films equals, so yes, proof has been established.

Originally posted by Darth Vious
SBD?? SOrry, I don't understand that...
How do you know that the Kaminoans didn't know about the new droids? The order ultimately had Sith backing, and they knew about the ICS battledroids, so it would make sense that the clones were trained to overcome them (which they clearly did in many battles in RotS) There is no 'maybe', I forget which Kaminoan said it, but they clearly said "Clones are far superior to droids." which settles the debate.


You might want to re-check that thread, as I wasn't the one who posted about the level of canon, but it clearly says, that EU books are not canon. Novelization books are canon (but only where they do not contradict the films) and I've already shown what arguing that Lucas' intentions outweighing the films equals, so yes, proof has been established.


Super battle droid. Did the Kaminoans really know about that? And my word still stands that they might only have ment that. Besides, there were only like 5 clones that faced Ki-Adi (or that at least could shoot) whilst there was a small corridor filled with droids who fired at Saeese. It should be impossible for a jedi, at least of his calibur. And the same with those two jedi, one was a padawan and one was a master. The padawan deflected a ridicilous amount of blaster bolts at once, and moved her hand sick fast. Mace Windu himself could not deflect the shots into the SBD's easily on Geonosis, and that was one, and that was not rapid fire.... (At least not near as fast as those droids).



Show me the exact quote from that thread cause I can't find it....

this is what every thread needs to look like.

Originally posted by kamikz
Super battle droid. Did the Kaminoans really know about that?
Gotcha. As I said, the order for the clones was placed (ultimately) at the Sith's request. The Sith (ultimately) were in controll of the CIS droid forces, so it would make sense that they would request the clones be skilled enough to take down SBDs for when they're both deployed together. To be honest, SBDs really aren't 'all that'. In RotS, during The Duel, Obi-Wan runs right up to one firing point blank at him, isn't hit once, and then proceeds to slice it to pieces.

Originally posted by kamikz
And my word still stands that they might only have ment that.
It doesn't, because that was just your opinion. The Kaminoan said that clones were superior to droids. It doesn't matter if they meant for one reason or a dozen reasons, they said that they were superior, and that is from the highest canon source.

Originally posted by kamikz
Besides, there were only like 5 clones that faced Ki-Adi (or that at least could shoot) whilst there was a small corridor filled with droids who fired at Saeese.
As I pointed out, the number is irrelevent as the clones were superior to droids, so a handfull of clones is still a harder target than a load of droids. Your own comment here:
Originally posted by kamikz
I would say a clone trooper. Unlike the droid, a clone trooper can think for himself, make plans and stuff. I think he is a better warrior to cause they have been professionally trained, the droids are just armed with blasters and sent out to kill....
said that clones are superior to droids, so don't try and change your mind and argue that droids are better just so you can try and argue with me, because that's just pathetic.

Originally posted by kamikz
And the same with those two jedi, one was a padawan and one was a master. The padawan deflected a ridicilous amount of blaster bolts at once, and moved her hand sick fast.
Her? Zett Jukassa is a male... He was portrayed by Lucas' son, Jet... It doesn't matter how many blaster bolts he deflected. He was able to do so for a short period of time, but was ultimately overwhelemed and shot down. The rest of the Jedi didn't even deflect any blaster bolts. (apart from Ki-Adi)

Originally posted by kamikz
Mace Windu himself could not deflect the shots into the SBD's easily on Geonosis, and that was one, and that was not rapid fire.... (At least not near as fast as those droids).
He had no trouble with the SBDs on either Geonosis or Dantooine. In AotC, hedeflected the shots with no trouble at all, it was Jango's flamethrower that made him jump over the railing and even then, he was still able to deflect the SBDs shots...

Originally posted by kamikz
Show me the exact quote from that thread cause I can't find it....
Here it is:
Originally posted by Jam-Jul_Lison
For information on what is cannon check this out. http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f38/t20461.html

a similer post here.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f5/t20463.html

in them it defines what is cannon. i will now post part of the cannon definition below. Click on the links if you want to read the whole thing.

"Lucasfilm Canon Policy: "Canon includes the screenplays, the films, the radio dramas and the novelisations. These works spin out of George Lucas' original stories, the rest are written by other writers."

This affirms the idea that only the things that GL himself directly created can count for canon. The rules that follow are awkward, but basically the films are the 'primary' canon and the books and others are 'secondary', in that you assume what they say is true unless they are contradicted by the films (like Owen Lars being Obi-Wan's brother, for example)."

From the way it looks above. The Movies are higher cannon then the rest. In the movies Anakin had to grab Dooku's arm to win. Nothing in that entire battle proves Anakin was a better duelest then Dooku and nothing proves Anakin has better force control then Dooku. All it proves was Anakin won the fight by overpowering Dooku who was at the very least 60 years old. The movies overrule Lucas's words. Case closed. That is part of the rules on these forums. I realy think the staff needs to post a similer set of rules on the EU forum to prevent this. Though to be honest these Dooku threads do not belong here anyway.

Originally posted by Darth Vious
Gotcha. As I said, the order for the clones was placed (ultimately) at the Sith's request. The Sith (ultimately) were in controll of the CIS droid forces, so it would make sense that they would request the clones be skilled enough to take down SBDs for when they're both deployed together. To be honest, SBDs really aren't 'all that'. In RotS, during The Duel, Obi-Wan runs right up to one firing point blank at him, isn't hit once, and then proceeds to slice it to pieces.


It doesn't, because that was just your opinion. The Kaminoan said that clones were superior to droids. It doesn't matter if they meant for one reason or a dozen reasons, they said that they were superior, and that is from the highest canon source.


As I pointed out, the number is irrelevent as the clones were superior to droids, so a handfull of clones is still a harder target than a load of droids. Your own comment here:

said that clones are superior to droids, so don't try and change your mind and argue that droids are better just so you can try and argue with me, because that's just pathetic.


Her? Zett Jukassa is a male... He was portrayed by Lucas' son, Jet... It doesn't matter how many blaster bolts he deflected. He was able to do so for a short period of time, but was ultimately overwhelemed and shot down. The rest of the Jedi didn't even deflect any blaster bolts. (apart from Ki-Adi)


He had no trouble with the SBDs on either Geonosis or Dantooine. In AotC, hedeflected the shots with no trouble at all, it was Jango's flamethrower that made him jump over the railing and even then, he was still able to deflect the SBDs shots...


Here it is:




The whole corridor was filled with fire, would you belive that just because a clone is more skilled he can kill a jedi. They overwhealmed Ki-Adi, they didn't use skill....
That is the same for the jedi padawan who deflected more than Windu did, and Windu never even got to deflect the shots back at the droid. I know Jango chased him away, but he was still not able to deflect a single shot onto the droid itself.


WTF, I'm not saying that a droid is superior, but you made it seem like droids suck, clones own. This is not the case....


I'm not talking about Zett, I'm talking about a jedi during the clone wars. Zett was in the way for many clones, not many could fire at him anyway....


That does not say that the cartoons is more canon. And IF they were, there are still parts in the cartoons that are ridicilous, they overpower people.
Can Mace punch through durasteel but not human flesh?
Can Yoda send back armies that are walking out a ship, then crash the ship in another? (Those ships contain over 1000 of battledroids, over 200 tanks, and over 80 transport ships, which themselfs are stocking 100 droids) when he can barley lift a tube in AOTC? This clearly contradicts the movie...
Can Yoda lift an army of droidekas when Obi-Wan and Anakin can't lift 2?
Can Mace push away armies of SBD alone when he couldn't even do near the same when they were in Geonosis?

People are moving faster, are stronger, and ridicilousley powerful. Assaj lifting a pillar the size of the tube in AOTC with ease, Anakin pushing it back with more ease. Please....

Originally posted by kamikz
The whole corridor was filled with fire, would you belive that just because a clone is more skilled he can kill a jedi. They overwhealmed Ki-Adi, they didn't use skill....
Didn't use skill? Aiming a weapon to hit a target involves both practice and skill. They overwhelmed Ki-Adi, but used their skills in order to do so.

Originally posted by kamikz
WTF, I'm not saying that a droid is superior, but you made it seem like droids suck, clones own. This is not the case....
??? I posted a comment you made where you said that clones were superior to droids! Don't try and change your statement now, I've quoted it already, and if I have to, I'll quote it again. Also, I have not 'made' anything 'seem' like anything. I have just stated the facts as expressed or shown in the movies. None of that is my own personal opinion (although I do agree with them), they are just facts.

Originally posted by kamikz
I'm not talking about Zett, I'm talking about a jedi during the clone wars. Zett was in the way for many clones, not many could fire at him anyway....
What Jedi were you talking about then? Seeing as I was refering to the execution of Order 66 where only Ki-Adi and Zett defended themselves (unsuccessfully) against the Clones, I don't know why you've mentioned another Jedi from CW...

Originally posted by Darth Vious
Didn't use skill? Aiming a weapon to hit a target involves both practice and skill. They overwhelmed Ki-Adi, but used their skills in order to do so.


??? I posted a comment you made where you said that clones were superior to droids! Don't try and change your statement now, I've quoted it already, and if I have to, I'll quote it again. Also, I have not 'made' anything 'seem' like anything. I have just stated the facts as expressed or shown in the movies. None of that is my own personal opinion (although I do agree with them), they are just facts.


What Jedi were you talking about then? Seeing as I was refering to the execution of Order 66 where only Ki-Adi and Zett defended themselves (unsuccessfully) against the Clones, I don't know why you've mentioned another Jedi from CW...

They overwhealmed him, you can see he can't deflect because it is to much for him. There was about twice as many shots coming in at Saeese and that jedi. (It's in the CW, the one who just created her lightsaber).

No, there I said the clones where superior, and that is true. But to ME you made it seem like droids have no skills what-so-ever compared to the clones. Droids had exceptional aim and accuracy, not more so than the clones, but accurate nontheless. I'm not trying to change anything.

Originally posted by kamikz
That does not say that the cartoons is more canon.
Are you shitting me?? It clearly says that the only novels that are considered canon are the novelizations. LOE was not a novelization, therefore, it is not canon. The cartoons come under the catagory of the movies as they are both moving visual mediums and interlink with each other.

Originally posted by kamikz
there are still parts in the cartoons that are ridicilous, they overpower people.
They do not overpower anyone, they show the true extent of the Jedi and Sith's powers! The only way they would look ridiculous is if they were to use cgi to move live actors around in that way!

Originally posted by kamikz
Can Mace punch through durasteel but not human flesh?
Can Yoda send back armies that are walking out a ship, then crash the ship in another? (Those ships contain over 1000 of battledroids, over 200 tanks, and over 80 transport ships, which themselfs are stocking 100 droids) when he can barley lift a tube in AOTC? This clearly contradicts the movie...
Can Yoda lift an army of droidekas when Obi-Wan and Anakin can't lift 2?
Can Mace push away armies of SBD alone when he couldn't even do near the same when they were in Geonosis?

People are moving faster, are stronger, and ridicilousley powerful. Assaj lifting a pillar the size of the tube in AOTC with ease, Anakin pushing it back with more ease. Please....
All those points are completely bullshit arguments. CW is canon. Full stop. That is all that matters. IT IS CANON. That means that whatever happens in CW must ALSO BE CANON.
The examples you are using of someone doing something they could not do previously is useless as an example of 'overpowering' because it simply shows that the person has learned new skills. If a person then did not do something in RotS that was in CW, ask yourself this question: Did the movie of RotS require them to do that exact thing? As for Yoda, I have already given a possible explanation for the effects of the existing momentum and innertia of an object that he is attempting to manipulate with the Force. Stop making me repeat myself because you are either too lazy to read my previous posts properly or too stupid to comprehend them.

Originally posted by kamikz
They overwhealmed him, you can see he can't deflect because it is to much for him. There was about twice as many shots coming in at Saeese and that jedi. (It's in the CW, the one who just created her lightsaber).
I never said he defended himself successfully, I said he was one of the only Jedi to actually defend himself from the Clones. Also, Barriss was a padawan, deflecting against droids, Ki-Adi was a Master (and Council member) deflecting against clones (who are better than droids)

Originally posted by kamikz
No, there I said the clones where superior, and that is true. But to ME you made it seem like droids have no skills what-so-ever compared to the clones. Droids had exceptional aim and accuracy, not more so than the clones, but accurate nontheless. I'm not trying to change anything.
I never made any such comment, and if you read what I wrote as that, then that is your own faul, not mine. All I pointed out, was that SBDs 'aren't all that' (which they clearly are not)

Originally posted by Darth Vious
I never said he defended himself successfully, I said he was one of the only Jedi to actually defend himself from the Clones. Also, Barriss was a padawan, deflecting against droids, Ki-Adi was a Master (and Council member) deflecting against clones (who are better than droids)


I never made any such comment, and if you read what I wrote as that, then that is your own faul, not mine. All I pointed out, was that SBDs 'aren't all that' (which they clearly are not)


I never said you said he defended himself succeesfully, I said that he was overwhealmed because there were to many clones. (About 5). If there was one he would easily have done it. This shows that even if they have skill it was the number that was fatal to Ki-Adi, there were about 3 or 4 TIMES the blaster bolts coming in at Saeese and that padawan. If they can parry it in the CW, but Ki-Adi can't do near the same in ROTS, then I think it's the CW that is wrong...



Aren't all what? And that doesn't really matter ^

Originally posted by kamikz
I never said you said he defended himself succeesfully, I said that he was overwhealmed because there were to many clones. (About 5). If there was one he would easily have done it. This shows that even if they have skill it was the number that was fatal to Ki-Adi, there were about 3 or 4 TIMES the blaster bolts coming in at Saeese and that padawan. If they can parry it in the CW, but Ki-Adi can't do near the same in ROTS, then I think it's the CW that is wrong...
Okay, this is starting to get tedious as you are just backtracking and retracting your previous comments.
The amount of blaster bolts coming at Saesse and Barriss were from droids. Even if there were more blaster bolts, they are less accurate than the clones are. The clones need less blaster bolts to achieve the same result as a droid. That is the difference. It doesn't matter if one was done in CW and the other was done in RotS, because the source of the blaster bolts was different

Originally posted by kamikz
Aren't all what?
It's an American figure of speech. If something is good, then it is considered to 'be all that'. If something is not as good (particularly when being compared to something that is good) then it is said to be 'not all that' or, to use a contraction when talking about multiple things, it becomes they (aren't = are not) 'aren't all that'.

Originally posted by Darth Vious
Okay, this is starting to get tedious as you are just backtracking and retracting your previous comments.
The amount of blaster bolts coming at Saesse and Barriss were from droids. Even if there were more blaster bolts, they are less accurate than the clones are. The clones need less blaster bolts to achieve the same result as a droid. That is the difference. It doesn't matter if one was done in CW and the other was done in RotS, because the source of the blaster bolts was different


It's an American figure of speech. If something is good, then it is considered to 'be all that'. If something is not as good (particularly when being compared to something that is good) then it is said to be 'not all that' or, to use a contraction when talking about multiple things, it becomes they (aren't = are not) 'aren't all that'.



When I look on that, I don't see a single shot missing (what was her name? Bariss?) her, she deflects them all. So why exactly would it be different, when the droids aren't missing at all?


And what makes you say that?

Originally posted by kamikz
When I look on that, I don't see a single shot missing (what was her name? Bariss?) her, she deflects them all. So why exactly would it be different, when the droids aren't missing at all?


And what makes you say that?
I was not speaking just about that particular incident, but in general. It has been said in a movie that clones are superior to droids. You said so yourself in another thread. That means that 6 clones are harder to defend against than 12 droids. It does not matter that Barriss was facing them in CW and Ki-Adi was facing them in RotS, the thing that matters, is that Barriss was facing droids and Ki-Adi was facing clones (which are superior to droids) so he had a harder challenge.

How do you come to the conclusion that just because a clone is superior to a droid they are TWICE as good? I doubt a clone cold take 2 SBD's. And I know that a clone trooper is superior to a SBD, but not by very much. And having about 20 droids firing blaster bolts in a small corridor against you is going to be harder to parry than deflecting the bolts of 6 clones. Besides, the Kaminoans didn't say what droid, they only said droids. Does that mean that one Clone is suprior to a droideka as well? Of course not. If she meant droids in general, than the point about Clone's being superior could mean because they have a brain for themselfs and is not controlled by a computer. The clones may be better, but as I said, not by very much, and this goes for SBD and BD's only....

Originally posted by kamikz
How do you come to the conclusion that just because a clone is superior to a droid they are TWICE as good?
I just used even numbers for the sake of simplicity.

Originally posted by kamikz
Besides, the Kaminoans didn't say what droid, they only said droids.
You're clutching at straws. I explained before why the Clones would most likely have been trained to defeat SBDs, and, as pointed out by someone else, Droideka's advantages came from their shield generators. The Kaminoan said that clones were superior to droids, and that's all there is to it.

Did they say precisley which droid? Does this mean that any clone can take any droid? No....

Originally posted by kamikz
Did they say precisley which droid? Does this mean that any clone can take any droid? No....
They used the word 'droids', not battle droids, or SBDs, but droids, so that would have meant all droids, not specific ones.

Ok, so what makes a clone trooper superior to a droideka, a (giant) crab droid, IG droids, B-3 Ultra droids, Magna Guards and the Spelunker probe droid? I would say the only thing that a clone trooper has against these kinds of droids is a brain, more traning, not controlled by a computer.....

Originally posted by kamikz
Ok, so what makes a clone trooper superior to a droideka, a (giant) crab droid, IG droids, B-3 Ultra droids, Magna Guards and the Spelunker probe droid? I would say the only thing that a clone trooper has against these kinds of droids is a brain, more traning, not controlled by a computer.....
It doesn't matter what makes a clone trooper superior. The fact is, that they simply are.

So you mean a clone could beat all those in a 1 on 1?

Originally posted by kamikz
So you mean a clone could beat all those in a 1 on 1?
I never said that. Re read what I wrote.

"It doesn't matter what makes a clone trooper superior. The fact is, that they simply are."

I don't get it. What does this answere? If they are not superior in fighting abilities then why should it matter?

Originally posted by kamikz
I don't get it. What does this answere? If they are not superior in fighting abilities then why should it matter?
You asked what made the Clones superior. I simply pointed out that it does not matter what makes the Clones superior, because it has already been said that they are superior. If someone tells you they are married, are you going to ask them what proves that they are married?

But you can't say what makes them surperior. The film does not state what makes them superior, they could mean that which I posted above. If you can't tell me what makes them better than what makes you so sure that it is battle?
And that is not comparable.....

Mace pwned Grevious with one move(Force Crush), Im pretty sure, Dooku can do same.

Originally posted by kamikz
But you can't say what makes them surperior. The film does not state what makes them superior, they could mean that which I posted above. If you can't tell me what makes them better than what makes you so sure that it is battle?
And that is not comparable.....
Just because I can't tell you what makes them superior, that does not mean that they aren't. I can't tell you how gravity works, but it does. The Kaminoans said that the clones were superior to the droids, so that's that, they are superior, the reason is irrelevent. Also, as I said above, you have already said in another thread that clones are superior to droids, so why are you trying to argue that the are not on this one? If it's just to engage me in an arguement, please don't bother. I'd be quite happy to discuss things without having to argue the point.

Wait; so you listen to the Kaminoas but when Dooku said that Grievous couldn't beat the best of the Jedi you ignore that. You call the books non canon, why?

Originally posted by Darth Vious
Just because I can't tell you what makes them superior, that does not mean that they aren't. I can't tell you how gravity works, but it does. The Kaminoans said that the clones were superior to the droids, so that's that, they are superior, the reason is irrelevent. Also, as I said above, you have already said in another thread that clones are superior to droids, so why are you trying to argue that the are not on this one? If it's just to engage me in an arguement, please don't bother. I'd be quite happy to discuss things without having to argue the point.


No, if you can't say WHAT makes them superior, I doubt that they must be in combat, you cannot know for sure. And no, I said they are probably above a battle droid and probably a SBD, but people can change their minds to, or do you control what I think now?

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Wait; so you listen to the Kaminoas but when Dooku said that Grievous couldn't beat the best of the Jedi you ignore that.
The Kaminoan's made the comment on film. Dooku's comment was made in LOE, which is little more than published fan fiction, because CW takes canon precedent over the events as it is a moving image rather than a book. Movies are higher canon than the EU books, which is why I accept the Kaminoan's comment but ignore the one made by Dooku.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
You call the books non canon, why?
Because EU books are not canon. It's as simple as that. Novelizations are considered canon, but a lower canon than the movie. The movie is the highest source, so that is what I (and the rules of this forum) take as accurate.

Originally posted by kamikz
No, if you can't say WHAT makes them superior, I doubt that they must be in combat, you cannot know for sure.
I don't have to say why they're superior. It was stated on film that they are superior, so that makes it an official fact, unless you feel that the movies are not official enough?

Originally posted by kamikz
but people can change their minds to, or do you control what I think now?
Don't use yourself as a strawman, you'll just get set on fire. The comments made in the movie of AotC were very clear about the clones
"Clones are far superior to droids"
"They are totally obedient, following any order without question."
When Padme and the Clone fell from the carrier, his first reaction was to get back to the forward command post. She then gave him an order to get troops and a transport, which changed his mind.

Originally posted by Darth Vious
The Kaminoan's made the comment on film Dooku's comment was made in LOE, which is little more than published fan fiction, because CW takes canon precedent over it as a moving image rather than a book.


Because EU books are not canon. It's as simple as that. Novelizations are considered canon, but a lower canon than the movie. The movie is the highest source, to that is what I (and the rules of this forum) take as accurate.

Okay so that means the CW is non canon.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Okay so that means the CW is non canon.
No it doesn't. As I said, CW is a moving image, so it is higher canon than the EU. CW directly leads into the events of RotS and explains why the characters are the way they are. Does LOE explain why Anakin's artificial hand was different in RotS to AotC? CW does...
There have been comments in other threads that CW is canon.

Originally posted by Darth Vious
No it doesn't. As I said, CW is a moving image, so it is higher canon than the EU. CW directly leads into the events of RotS and explains why the characters are the way they are. Does LOE explain why Anakin's artificial hand was different in RotS to AotC? CW does...
There have been comments in other threads that CW is canon.

Yes. It also explains that Dooku tells Grievous that he cannot defeat top Jedi such as Mace, Yoda, and Obi-Wan in a straight up battle. LOE is the offical prequel to the movie.

Plus unlike the CW it doesn't have overpowered characters that would make their movie counter parts look like little kids.

And even in the CW micro-series Dooku said that Grievous cannot defeat the best of the Jedi straight up.

Dooku would WTFpwn Grievous.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Yes.
And that explanation is?

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
LOE is the offical prequel to the movie.
Which Lucas allowed the Clone Wars cartoons to overrule. It's been agreed that the CW are accepted as Canon on the forum, and it's also accepted that any books that are not direct novelizations are not lesser canon, but EU. Even lesser canon can overrule EU, whichmeans that the CW version of events outweighs LOE's

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Plus unlike the CW it doesn't have overpowered characters that would make their movie counter parts look like little kids.
CW showed the true potential of Jedi abilities. Do you think that the Battle of Dantooine would have looked good filmed live action? With Sam Jackson moving so fast he was a blur, or jumping incredible distances, or do you think it would look stupid?
The cartoon was able to do things that simply wouldn't look good on film, that doesn't make the character's overpowered. And the fact that the RotS plotline did not call for the characters to use the same abilities as in the CW does not mean that they no longer had those abilities.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
And even in the CW micro-series Dooku said that Grievous cannot defeat the best of the Jedi straight up.
No, he said that he had to have certain elements in his favor, which is true of any fight.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Dooku would WTFpwn Grievous.
He most certainly would not. This would certainly be a close battle. Personally, I don't think Dooku would be fast enough to block all of Grievous' 4 sabers our avoid his spinning attacks. Even on the offchance that the Count was able to win (through his greater knowledge and experience) it certainly would not be an easy victory, let alone easy enough to count as WTFpwnage...

No, the CW does overpower. How can it show "true potential" when the films show that they aren't this good? Has Lucas said himself that it would look stupid if he made them that good?
Besides, does it look stupid when Yoda lifts that tube in AOTC? No. Is it then true that Assaj ripped out and tossed one of those with ease when Yoda had to struggle? Overpowered as hell. You see, not only the speed is overpowered but their force abilities as well, and we've seen people in the movies utalize such powers and it does NOT look stupid....

I mean, in the ROTJ Luke vs Dooku you talk about how the movies should overrule the other sources, but when it comes to the CW it overrules the movies way of fighting????

Originally posted by kamikz
No, the CW does overpower. How can it show "true potential" when the films show that they aren't this good? Has Lucas said himself that it would look stupid if he made them that good?
Besides, does it look stupid when Yoda lifts that tube in AOTC? No. Is it then true that Assaj ripped out and tossed one of those with ease when Yoda had to struggle? Overpowered as hell. You see, not only the speed is overpowered but their force abilities as well, and we've seen people in the movies utalize such powers and it does NOT look stupid....

I mean, in the ROTJ Luke vs Dooku you talk about how the movies should overrule the other sources, but when it comes to the CW it overrules the movies way of fighting????


Don't forget that Yoda was throwing around Cruisers with ease in CW and yet he had to dodge the Senate Pods because he couldn't stop them, expect one.

Not to mention Anakin is shown jumping hundreds of feet in the air and yet he was in saber length when he jumped over Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Don't forget that Yoda was throwing around Cruisers with ease in CW and yet he had to dodge the Senate Pods because he couldn't stop them, expect one.
No. Yoda was dodging the Senate Pods because he was still trying to get to Palpatine with his lightsaber (evidence is that he kept re-igniting the saber, so he clearly intended to use it) not because he couldn't stop them. When he wanted to stop one, he did it with ease.


Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Not to mention Anakin is shown jumping hundreds of feet in the air and yet he was in saber length when he jumped over Obi-Wan.
?? Which jump are you refering to? The one in AotC? Look at the jump he made during the duel on Mustafar when he leapt off the gantry to the hover droid... That was way more than 'saber length'. As I said before, just because the plot of RotS did not require characters to use the abilities they had in CW, that does not mean that they no longer had those abilities.

I mean, in the ROTJ Luke vs Dooku you talk about how the movies should overrule the other sources, but when it comes to the CW it overrules the movies way of fighting????

Originally posted by kamikz
No, the CW does overpower. How can it show "true potential" when the films show that they aren't this good? Has Lucas said himself that it would look stupid if he made them that good?
Don't be so naive. It's obvious that having a live action Sam Jackson flying hundreds of feet in the air and moving like a blur would look stupid, it doesn't need Lucas' comment to make that so.

Originally posted by kamikz
Besides, does it look stupid when Yoda lifts that tube in AOTC? No. Is it then true that Assaj ripped out and tossed one of those with ease when Yoda had to struggle?
Yoda was an object that was already in motion. That would make it harder than moving objects at rest.

Originally posted by kamikz
You see, not only the speed is overpowered but their force abilities as well, and we've seen people in the movies utalize such powers and it does NOT look stupid....
Really? When Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan used Force speed to escape the droidekas, that did indeed, look stupid. I wonder why none of the other films showed such speeds...? Probably because Lucas saw how bad it sucked the first time and actually learned from the mistake.

Originally posted by kamikz
I mean, in the ROTJ Luke vs Dooku you talk about how the movies should overrule the other sources, but when it comes to the CW it overrules the movies way of fighting????
I never said that at all. The CW is considered as canon here. It is not as high as the movies, but it has not actually contradicted the movies, so I don't see the point you're trying to make.

Really? When Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan used Force speed to escape the droidekas, that did indeed, look stupid. I wonder why none of the other films showed such speeds...? Probably because Lucas saw how bad it sucked the first time and actually learned from the mistake.

Umm...no it didn't.

Yoda was an object that was already in motion. That would make it harder than moving objects at rest.

And yet Yoda had no trouble throwing around Cruisers that were in motion.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
I mean, in the ROTJ Luke vs Dooku you talk about how the movies should overrule the other sources,
Be more accurate. In the other thread, I said that the movies overrule other non canon sources. CW is accepted here as canon.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
but when it comes to the CW it overrules the movies way of fighting????
Not at all. I never said that at all. I just said that the events of Clone Wars are considered canon. There isn't a movie of the CW, so the cartoon is not contradicting a movie.

Originally posted by Darth Vious
Don't be so naive. It's obvious that having a live action Sam Jackson flying hundreds of feet in the air and moving like a blur would look stupid, it doesn't need Lucas' comment to make that so.


Yoda was an object that was already in motion. That would make it harder than moving objects at rest.


Really? When Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan used Force speed to escape the droidekas, that did indeed, look stupid. I wonder why none of the other films showed such speeds...? Probably because Lucas saw how bad it sucked the first time and actually learned from the mistake.


I never said that at all. The CW is considered as canon here. It is not as high as the movies, but it has not actually contradicted the movies, so I don't see the point you're trying to make.


No, just because YOU think it looks ridicilous doesn't mean it does, apparently neither me or ESB thinks it looks ridicilous....


Lol, Anakin pushed away that tube when Assaj had TOSSED it against him, Yoda was just trying to lift a tube that was slowly falling down. Anakin pushed it like it was nothing, and Assaj ripped it of the platform and tossed it away fast and long. If it was that easy, no matter if or if it wasn't in motion, Yoda could have easily done the same, but he couldn't. And now we are not even mentioning when Dooku is FLYING in the CW....

Originally posted by kamikz
No, just because YOU think it looks ridicilous doesn't mean it does, apparently neither me or ESB thinks it looks ridicilous....

And where was Jedi Speed used in ESB? Where Luke jumped out of the Carbonite chamber?
Sorry, but yes, that did stretch the boundaries of what was believable by manipulating a live actor.

Originally posted by kamikz
No, just because YOU think it looks ridicilous doesn't mean it does, Lol, Anakin pushed away that tube when Assaj had TOSSED it against him, Which tube would that be? In CW, they only fought on Yavin, and I don't remember any tubes being thrown, or objects being thrown suddenly being deflected... Anakin was however hit by a lot of the stuff that Assajj threw at him, and also blocked a lot of it with his lightsaber.

Originally posted by kamikz
If it was that easy, no matter if or if it wasn't in motion, Yoda could have easily done the same, but he couldn't.
No, an object in motion would be more difficult, because there would be its existing innertia and momentum to nullify before reversing it's course.

Originally posted by kamikz
And now we are not even mentioning when Dooku is FLYING in the CW....
Flying... Let's see. He glided own from the viewing balcony, having levitated himself over a meter high wall. That hardly constitute's flying. If a Jedi can use the Force to levitate objects, then why not use it to levitate themself? You saw the Force Assisted jumps that Obi-Wan made in TPM, it's no different.

Originally posted by Darth Vious
And where was Jedi Speed used in ESB? Where Luke jumped out of the Carbonite chamber?
Sorry, but yes, that did stretch the boundaries of what was believable by manipulating a live actor.

Which tube would that be? In CW, they only fought on Yavin, and I don't remember any tubes being thrown, or objects being thrown suddenly being deflected... Anakin was however hit by a lot of the stuff that Assajj threw at him, and also blocked a lot of it with his lightsaber.


No, an object in motion would be more difficult, because there would be its existing innertia and momentum to nullify before reversing it's course.


Flying... Let's see. He glided own from the viewing balcony, having levitated himself over a meter high wall. That hardly constitute's flying. If a Jedi can use the Force to levitate objects, then why not use it to levitate themself? You saw the Force Assisted jumps that Obi-Wan made in TPM, it's no different.


Lol no I meant ESB/Sin Harvest. His last name was ESB 132, something like that, forgot he changed name....


She tossed a huge pillar that Anakin pushed away with ease, roughly the size of that Yoda liften in AOTC....


He didn't jump at all, he just flew himself over that wall, then slowly down. Apparently he could fly upwards.... If jedi could lift themselves then why didn't Sidious do that in ROTJ? He has tons of more force knowledge than Dooku. Or Yoda when he fell down from that pod. If they could lift themselfse they would not fear heights.....

Originally posted by Darth Vious
And where was Jedi Speed used in ESB? Where Luke jumped out of the Carbonite chamber?
Sorry, but yes, that did stretch the boundaries of what was believable by manipulating a live actor.

Which tube would that be? In CW, they only fought on Yavin, and I don't remember any tubes being thrown, or objects being thrown suddenly being deflected... Anakin was however hit by a lot of the stuff that Assajj threw at him, and also blocked a lot of it with his lightsaber.


No, an object in motion would be more difficult, because there would be its existing innertia and momentum to nullify before reversing it's course.


Flying... Let's see. He glided own from the viewing balcony, having levitated himself over a meter high wall. That hardly constitute's flying. If a Jedi can use the Force to levitate objects, then why not use it to levitate themself? You saw the Force Assisted jumps that Obi-Wan made in TPM, it's no different.


http://www.starman417.com/stfu.jpg

dooku wuld win. he taught grievous. dooku has alot of accuracy becuz hes a fencer. grievous is the faster 1 but that doesn't matter when u fight dooku. Dooku can basically see wat grievous will do before he does it.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
http://www.starman417.com/stfu.jpg
What the f*ck kind of a responce is that? You didn't even address a single point, and instead, posted a picture?? Also, I find it highly amusing that the picture is against liberal pussies, and when it comes to politics (something I won't even go into on this forum) I am far right wing, and hate liberals more than the English language has words to express.