Luke's skill

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jollyjim311
There's a "Dooku's skill" thread, so why not a Luke? Many people seem to think Luke is not powerful what so ever by the time of ROTJ as compared to the PT Jedi. He learned from the best, and learned it fast. I'm out to prove that Luke is as good as those PT Jedi. Best way to do that? Examples, I suppose. Here are a few:

These take place immediately after ANH. He must have learned a surprising amount from old Ben alone.
http://www.swcomics.com/Empire_Era2_c.php?i=3&f=20&name=Splinter_of_the_Minds_Eye_Part_2_of_4
http://www.swcomics.com/Empire_Era2_c.php?i=14&f=20&name=Splinter_of_the_Minds_Eye_Part_2_of_4
http://www.swcomics.com/Empire_Era2_c.php?i=19&f=21&name=Splinter_of_the_Minds_Eye_Part_3_of_4
http://www.swcomics.com/Empire_Era2_c.php?i=20&f=21&name=Splinter_of_the_Minds_Eye_Part_3_of_4
http://www.swcomics.com/Empire_Era2_c.php?i=2&f=22&name=Splinter_of_the_Minds_Eye_Part_4_of_4 -> http://www.swcomics.com/Empire_Era2_c.php?i=3&f=22&name=Splinter_of_the_Minds_Eye_Part_4_of_4
http://www.swcomics.com/Empire_Era2_c.php?i=8&f=22&name=Splinter_of_the_Minds_Eye_Part_4_of_4
http://www.swcomics.com/Empire_Era2_c.php?i=16&f=22&name=Splinter_of_the_Minds_Eye_Part_4_of_4

These are before ESB happens, also, and Luke is still pretty good.
http://www.swcomics.com/empire_c.php?i=12&f=34&name=Star_Wars_-_Empire_34
http://www.swcomics.com/empire_c.php?i=20&f=26&name=Star_Wars_-_Empire_26
http://www.swcomics.com/empire_c.php?i=15&f=27&name=Star_Wars_-_Empire_27

Also, a left over clone, who has seen Jedi fight, called Luke a Jedi. Take that for what you will, also.
http://www.swcomics.com/empire_c.php?i=23&f=27&name=Star_Wars_-_Empire_27

These are from immediately after ESB:
http://www.swcomics.com/Empire_Era_c.php?i=60&f=29&name=
http://www.swcomics.com/Empire_Era_c.php?i=62&f=29&name=
http://www.swcomics.com/Empire_Era_c.php?i=93&f=29&name=
http://www.swcomics.com/Empire_Era_c.php?i=101&f=29&name=
http://www.swcomics.com/Empire_Era_c.php?i=103&f=29&name=
http://www.swcomics.com/Empire_Era_c.php?i=113&f=29&name=
http://www.swcomics.com/Empire_Era_c.php?i=126&f=29&name=
http://www.swcomics.com/Empire_Era_c.php?i=132&f=29&name=
http://www.swcomics.com/Empire_Era_c.php?i=149&f=29&name=

Luke is able to show his skills with the force in ROTJ when he effortlessly subdues two guards and when he performs a mind trick.
Luke shows us two great fights against Vader.
Luke takes out around 20ish mercenaries on Jabba's sail barge.
Vader comments that Lukes "Skills are complete" in ROTJ.

Anybody have anything to add on or comment about? That is why it's a thread, after all.


Oh... my... God...

I have no life!!!

This is what happens when my girlfriend goes out of town...

I'm so sorry...

Legion_of_Maul
he's definently the greatest jedi of all time.

Razielim
Actually, the best way to analyze Luke's skill is to watch Return of the Jedi and see how he swings the baseball bat-err, I mean lightsaber.

Luke's cool in the OT. But by RotJ, the only thing he has above PT Jedi is a higher batting average.

Escape81
I somewhat agree. By the time of RotJ, Luke certainly wasn't a Mace Windu or a Yoda - but, yes, he is very powerful - especially for the limited time he had for training. His potential is immense, and he is a capable Jedi even with the meager training under his belt.

By the time of Dark Nest, yeah, I agree that Luke is the most powerful Jedi ever. Perhaps even the most powerful Force-user ever.

Lightsnake
No, actually, by ROTJ, Luke's pretty much stronger than most of the PT era Jedi. by ROTJ, Luke is damn good

Razielim
Based on what? Killing a dozen criminals at Jabba's place? Lifting C3PO with the force?

darth_dracus
how could luke be so great it took him awhile to defeat a sith that moved like 2miles per hour and also moved like a robot.

darth_dracus
srry my friend posted that.

jollyjim311
Well, tell your "friend" to ask that to Obi Wan. Vader isn't slow.

Lightsnake
Luke beat Vader for one and was able to drive him back, picked up a saber and within several months time learned as much about it as any knight...yeah, Luke's good

Razielim
Yeah, he beat his physically and emotionally crippled father when Vader wasn't even putting up a fight. Luke might have been as good as a knight by RotJ, but months after ANH? Years after ANH, and he could barely grab his saber with the force. He wasn't even youngling level at that point.

jollyjim311
With those links I posted, the first few are just to show how fast Luke learned, even before he met with Yoda. The latter section is more impressive, with Luke doing things like inspiring awe with his speed, kicking thugs off swoop bikes while deflecting fire behind his back, using mind tricks, and showing Vader that his power is now incredible (see the last link). These things couldn't be achieved by your average Joe Schmo PT Jedi.

jollyjim311
He had just been smashed in the face by a wampa, all the blood had run to his head, and he was frozen, whaddaya expect from him?

He is capable of more than that. Immediately following ANH, he could use the force. He was just in horrible condition at that point in ESB.
http://www.swcomics.com/Empire_Era2_c.php?i=2&f=22&name=Splinter_of_the_Minds_Eye_Part_4_of_4
http://www.swcomics.com/Empire_Era2_c.php?i=14&f=20&name=Splinter_of_the_Minds_Eye_Part_2_of_4

Razielim
Each group of criminals consisted of 6 people according to the novel. Luke fought two in Shadows of the Empire. Hardly impressive, when Anakin took on about 20 when he was a Padawan.

Really, do you see Luke doing many of the things Anakin did in AotC? He senses completely silent bugs from meters away and, in seconds, leaps into the next room and cuts them off of Padme's face without even hurting her. Luke hasn't really demonstrated anywhere near that precision by RotJ. In a similar situation, Luke would probably miss and cut off Padme's head.

Luke wields the damn thing like a baseball bat. Watch RotJ. His saber technique is obviously lacking.

ESB? Luke looked fine. He got knocked unconscious and woke up and stuggled to grab the thing.

Captain REX
Comparing Luke to Anakin is a tad different, not to mention that that is Anakin after ten years of training.

And Luke is supposed to have achieved Knighthood with the defeat of the Sith.

overlord
People wouldn't want Luke to be better than the average PT jedi anyway..

jollyjim311
Originally posted by Razielim
Luke wields the damn thing like a baseball bat. Watch RotJ. His saber technique is obviously lacking.

Compared to Obi wan and Anakin's baton skills?...
Well, it seemed to work fine for him against Vader now didn't it? In ESB his saberwork is excellent. Oh yeah, and compare the scene on Jabba's sail barge to what we see some of the PT Jedi doing in the Geonosis arena, Luke does much better.

Darth Vious
Luke was supposed to be 'the Hero' of the SW saga, so obviously, he's going to be hyped as such, but, as Rasielim pointed out above, his 'skills' in RotJ are no better than those of a PT Youngling. When he enetered Jabba's palace, he used the Force to choke the guards. That was unnecessary, and, Yoda clearly said, a Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defence, never for attack...
As mentioned, by Razielim, he wields his lightsaber like a bat and just swings it in the vain hopes of hitting something.
While on Jabba's barge, one of the guards was able to shoot him in the hand! (had it been an organic limb, he would have been disarmed) The fight against Vader, again, as pointed out by Razielim was hardly anything special, or showing Luke in a good light.
As for Vaders comment 'your skills are now complete', that was because he had constructed his lightsaber (as did all Padawans) Obi-Wan had constructed his own lightsaber prior to TPM, so by arguement, his skills were also complete, but he was still learning new skills and new techniques up till RotS and beyond. Just because Luke had gained and completed the basic skills, that didn't necessarily mean he had nothing more to learn, or that he was any better than he actually was. Zett Jukassa was shown to have better blaster deflection skills in RotS (even though he was ultimately killed)

jollyjim311
Originally posted by Darth Vious
never for attack...

That little hypocrite. He slammed two guards when he went to get Sidious.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by jollyjim311
That little hypocrite. He slammed two guards when he went to get Sidious.
He did, but, he didn't choke them, (which is a much more agressive technique) as Luke did. To be honest, by brushing them into the wall and preventing them from taking any action against him, Yoda was actually doing the guards a favor...

Escape81
Originally posted by Darth Vious
He did, but, he didn't choke them, (which is a much more agressive technique) as Luke did. To be honest, by brushing them into the wall and preventing them from taking any action against him, Yoda was actually doing the guards a favor...

Not to be antagonistic - but I wonder if the same applies to Sith Lords. Yoda certainly walked in with the intent to murder Palpatine.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Escape81
Not to be antagonistic - but I wonder if the same applies to Sith Lords. Yoda certainly walked in with the intent to murder Palpatine.
That's true. However, Yoda's actions were for the greater good of the citizens of the Republic/Empire, not his own personal promotion (He was not at all happy with Mace's statement that the Jedi would have to take control of the Senate) He might have looked at the situation of overthrowing Palpatine as 'not being able to make an omelette without breaking some eggs', and a case of doing what had to be done for the benefit of everyone else, not just simple revenge.

jollyjim311
..And Luke did? He just subdued them. He didn't want to hack them into little pieces, I imagine, so he choked them out of consciousness. Anyway, let's get back on topic. Luke shows us much more impressive things than any of those average Jedi in the Geonisis arena.

Razielim
Well yeah. My 3 year old cousin can beat me in a sword fight if I'd completely throw the fight and want to die for him.



It's not. I recall Luke getting put on his ass in the first few instants and get his hand lopped off after Vader got serious.



No. Not even close. The Jedi on Geonosis were outnumbered tens of thousands to two hundred. Even then, some Jedi survive. Luke would have been killed on the sail barge if the blast hit his other hand. And he was only facing about a dozen people at most.

There's no way in hell he'd survive on Geonosis.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by jollyjim311
..And Luke did? He just subdued them. He didn't want to hack them into little pieces, I imagine, so he choked them out of consciousness.
He still could have done so less aggressively.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Anyway, let's get back on topic. Luke shows us much more impressive things than any of those average Jedi in the Geonisis arena.
Really? Care to list them? It's already been pointed out that Luke was nearly disarmed by one of Jabba's guards (would have been, had his hand been organic) and wielded his lightsaber as if it were a baseball bat with no refinement or technique. Zett Jukassa displayed more skills in his few moments on screen than Luke did in any of his fight scenes.

Lightsnake
One day after ROTJ, Luke is able to butcher Ssi-Ruuk elites in massive numbers...in ROTJ, Luke fought Vader who fought back to the fullest of his abilities as an equal.

We've seen Luke do plenty and he's already become extremely powerrful.

Razielim
Oh come on. Vader was emotionally conflicted the entire time and he wasn't even putting up a fight in the end. He was just backing away and ducking. I could have beaten him if he did that.

jollyjim311
Originally posted by Darth Vious
Really? Care to list them?

See my first post.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Lightsnake
One day after ROTJ, Luke is able to butcher Ssi-Ruuk elites in massive numbers...in ROTJ, Luke fought Vader who fought back to the fullest of his abilities as an equal.

We've seen Luke do plenty and he's already become extremely powerrful.
EU evidence is not as valid as the evidence of the movies. Luke increased in power a great deal in the EU plotlines (I wonder why) but in the movie of RotJ, his 'skills' (if you can even call them that) were severely limited, and no better than a Youngling.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by jollyjim311
See my first post.
Originally posted by jollyjim311

Luke is able to show his skills with the force in ROTJ when he effortlessly subdues two guards and when he performs a mind trick.
Luke shows us two great fights against Vader.
Luke takes out around 20ish mercenaries on Jabba's sail barge.
Vader comments that Lukes "Skills are complete" in ROTJ.

You mean how he aggressively chokes the guards... How very un-Jedi.
Such a great fight against Vader in ESB he got his hand cut off.
And as for the guards on Jabba's barge, it's already been pointed out that he would have been disarmed by one (and then killed by the others) if his saber hand had been organic.

Razielim
Well, that's taking it too far. I easily say he could beat a youngling and maybe even most Padawans. The reason I say this is because Luke's force telekenisis control was pretty good at this point. He manages to lift C3PO with the force with no apparent strain. He even managed to move his X-Wing a bit.

Whie in Dark Rendezvous, a padawan with great potential, was unable to convincingly force push a single assault droid. He struggled to deal with 2 assault droids.... And these things suck.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Razielim
Well, that's taking it too far. I easily say he could beat a youngling and maybe even most Padawans. The reason I say this is because Luke's force telekenisis control was pretty good at this point. He manages to lift C3PO with the force with no apparent strain. He even managed to move his X-Wing a bit.

Whie in Dark Rendezvous, a padawan with great potential, was unable to convincingly force push a single assault droid. He struggled to deal with 2 assault droids.... And these things suck.
When I said Youngling, I was meaning Zett Jukassa. I should have been more specific.

Lightsnake
Oh, right...because Luke facing down and beating Darth Vader is such a paltry feat that any youngling could perform...wait, in the movies, Vader'd been hunting down and destroying the Jedi knights.

Ok, Mace Windu is a terrible lightsaber fighter. He couldn't fight in the movies at all so EU be damned.

jollyjim311
Yeah, not to mention Kit, Agen, and Seasee, EU=over-rated and wrong because I said so, dunn-it, Vious?

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, right...because Luke facing down and beating Darth Vader is such a paltry feat that any youngling could perform...
Luke had the fact that Vader was emotionally conflicted in his favor, not to mention the fact Vader had artificial arms and legs, seriously restricted vision and was trapped in a mobile iron lung.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
wait, in the movies, Vader'd been hunting down and destroying the Jedi knights.
And when he did that in the movies, he did not have artificial arms and legs, seriously restricted visioin and was not trapped in a mobile iron lung nor emotional issues clouding his concentration.

Do you deny that Luke was nearly disarmed on Jabba's sail barge by a single non-Force Sensitive Human guard?
Since when has any other Jedi on screen been taken by a single non-Force sensitive Human guard?

Darth Vious
Originally posted by jollyjim311
Yeah, not to mention Kit, Agen, and Seasee,
What about them? How do they have any relevence?

Originally posted by jollyjim311
EU=over-rated and wrong because I said so, dunn-it, Vious?
EU = Over-rated and wrong regardless of what I say about it. Lucas does not consider EU as canon compared to the movies and novelizations and his only stipulations (as far as I know) are that Luke is always the more powerfull, and that main characters aren't killed. (Chewie being an exception, before he is mentioned)

Lightsnake
ROTJ novelization makes it clear Vader was fighting to his best.

And when was Luke nearly disarmed by a human guard exactly? Oh that's right, he never came close to losing his grip. And hm, according to the EU given direct input by Lucas, yeah...Vader was hunting down and SLAUGHTERING Jedi in the suit.

Try again, this is fun

jollyjim311
*Achoo
Read RODV

http://www.swcomics.com/Empire_Era_c.php?i=12&f=36&name=Purge
http://www.swcomics.com/Empire_Era_c.php?i=13&f=36&name=Purge
http://www.swcomics.com/Empire_Era_c.php?i=14&f=36&name=Purge
http://www.swcomics.com/Empire_Era_c.php?i=15&f=36&name=Purge
http://www.swcomics.com/Empire_Era_c.php?i=18&f=36&name=Purge
*Achoo

And Luke, with Vader holding back or not, did a helluva job against this Jedi-killing machine that was more powerful than this version.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Lightsnake
ROTJ novelization makes it clear Vader was fighting to his best.

Novelization does not top the movie, and in the movie, Vader was clearly conflicted in his intentions.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And when was Luke nearly disarmed by a human guard exactly?
When the guard shot him in his hand.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh that's right, he never came close to losing his grip.
Only because that hand was artificial. Had it been an organic hand, the lightsaber would have been shot from his grip. Answer the question rather than dodging it: when has any other Jedi been so taken by surprize by a non-Force Sensitive Human guard?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And hm, according to the EU given direct input by Lucas, yeah...Vader was hunting down and SLAUGHTERING Jedi in the suit.
You said in the movies, not the EU, so try again...

Darth Vious
Originally posted by jollyjim311
*Achoo
Read RODV

http://www.swcomics.com/Empire_Era_c.php?i=12&f=36&name=Purge
http://www.swcomics.com/Empire_Era_c.php?i=13&f=36&name=Purge
http://www.swcomics.com/Empire_Era_c.php?i=14&f=36&name=Purge
http://www.swcomics.com/Empire_Era_c.php?i=15&f=36&name=Purge
http://www.swcomics.com/Empire_Era_c.php?i=18&f=36&name=Purge
*Achoo

And Luke, with Vader holding back or not, did a helluva job against this Jedi-killing machine that was more powerful than this version.
Since when does EU books top the movies for canon?

But just to keep in the spirit of things...
http://www.swcomics.com/Empire_Era_c.php?i=17&f=36&s=go&name=Purge
Vader is clear:
"I under-estimated you, my Masters. You have proven yourselves to be greater adversaries than I anticipated. I am at your mercy. I surrender"

Had Koffi not betrayed Bultar and the Jedi ideals, then that would have been the end of it.

jollyjim311
You said no EU, he was poking fun.

Look at the AOTC Geonosis arena, many Jedi were killed by normal battle droids. Luke was fine after taking a shot in the hand from one on Jabba's top guys.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by jollyjim311
Look at the AOTC Geonosis arena, many Jedi were killed by normal battle droids.
Battle droids are not Human guards.
Since when do non-Force Sensitive Human guards have the skill to take down Jedi?

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Luke was fine after taking a shot in the hand from one on Jabba's top guys.
Correction: Luke was fine after taking a shot in the artificial hand from one of Jabba's top guys.

Please see the bottom of the other page for my reply to your Purge comment, as the page has now rolled over.

jollyjim311
Vader was being crafty, that guy ended up with a blade through his chest.

Lightsnake
The Clones killed Jedi. Non-Force sensitive being.

And no, Luke was shot in his organic hand. And in Purge Vader is playing on the Jedi's emotions, he played them against one another.

And the movie doesn't say a thing, the novelization overrides your opinion. And watch that scene again...Luke is shot in his organic hand, turns and kills the guy. Oh, and this is an EU forum with EU discussion. Everything that throws your opinion in the trash is 'invalid' though and only your opinion goes?

Darth Vious
Originally posted by jollyjim311
Vader was being crafty, that guy ended up with a blade through his chest.
He got killed because he had betrayed Bultar. As a character, he had to be 'punished' for that betrayal. I do not think Vader was being crafty at all. I beleive that when he said it, his surrender was genuine.

Lightsnake
Except it was confirmed that he was turning them against eachother

jollyjim311
Bull, then why did he punk him?

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Lightsnake
The Clones killed Jedi. Non-Force sensitive being.
I said Human Guards, not Clones.
Do you seriously think that Jabba's minions were as skilled as the Clone Troopers?
The Jedi were killed by the Clones because the Clones were following orders (which they had been conditioned to do without question) They were not acting out of malice, so there were no hostile intentions for the Jedi to pick up on. The only Jedi who tried to put up a defence (Ki-Adi and Zett) saw what the Clones were doing, and were able to try to defend themselves. The others were all shot from behind and died without a struggle. (Yoda may have overheard the communique and pre-empted the Clone's attack)

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And no, Luke was shot in his organic hand.
No, he was not. Luke's right hand was severed by Vader. Luke was holding his saber in his (artificial) right hand when the guard shot him in the hand.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And the movie doesn't say a thing, the novelization overrides your opinion.
The movie might not say anything, but Vader's conflict is visibly clear, and the movie overrides the novelization.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, and this is an EU forum with EU discussion.
So what? Even if this is an EU forum, that still does not mean that EU is more canon than a movie.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Everything that throws your opinion in the trash is 'invalid' though and only your opinion goes?
Don't even try and make this personal, you snivelling child. I'm debating facts, and using facts to support my points. You just can't accept that the facts I use outweigh the ones you use.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Except it was confirmed that he was turning them against eachother
Where was it confirmed.
They thought he was turning them against each other.
His surrender, when he gave it, was genuine.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by jollyjim311
Bull, then why did he punk him?
Because he killed Bultar, who had accepted his surrender.

Lightsnake
Does the EU contradict the canon here? No. You're just grasping at straws.
And nope, no conflict is clear. Novelization was done with direct Lucas review and collaboration. Your opinions means NOTHING!
And I see ROTJ...I see Luke shot in his HUMAN hand, hmmm!

*Yawn* Ah, *Snovelling child? Using facts! HAH! It's "NO! I'm right! You're wrong! No, I don't care about your evidence, only my opinion matters!"
Grow up, Vious. You ignore any bit of evidence in favor of your own opinion.

jollyjim311
Plenty of PT Jedi were killed by crap people. Normal "Rodger Rodger" battle droids in the Geonosis arena. Clones in the Temple.

Lightsnake
confirmed Vader tricked them in Insider. And John Ostrander said that Vader was smart enough to drive a wedge between them

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Does the EU contradict the canon here? No. You're just grasping at straws.
The only person grasping at straws here is you.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And nope, no conflict is clear.
Yes, it is.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Novelization was done with direct Lucas review and collaboration.
Novelization still does not top movie for canon.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Your opinions means NOTHING!
Your opinions mean nothing either. I am not expressing my opinion, I am stating facts as shown in the movie. Get over it!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And I see ROTJ...I see Luke shot in his HUMAN hand, hmmm!
Then you need to get your eyes tested.
Why was Luke wearing a black glove on his right hand from the time immediately after the battle on the sail barge to the end of the movie?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
*Yawn* Ah, *Snovelling child? Using facts! HAH! It's "NO! I'm right! You're wrong! No, I don't care about your evidence, only my opinion matters!"
Grow up, Vious. You ignore any bit of evidence in favor of your own opinion.
I ignore evidence that is outweighed by more canon evidence. My opinion has nothing to do with it. If anyone needs to grow up, it's you.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by jollyjim311
Plenty of PT Jedi were killed by crap people. Normal "Rodger Rodger" battle droids in the Geonosis arena. Clones in the Temple.
As I said above. Battle droids are not Humans. As I asked above, are you saying that Jabba's minions were as well trained as Republic CLone Troopers?

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Lightsnake
confirmed Vader tricked them in Insider. And John Ostrander said that Vader was smart enough to drive a wedge between them
And where is that in the actual comic? Where does it say in the comic that Vader's surrender was not genuine?

jollyjim311
Originally posted by Darth Vious
As I said above. Battle droids are not Humans. As I asked above, are you saying that Jabba's minions were as well trained as Republic CLone Troopers?

Battle droids suck wrose than humans, you're just nit-picking now.

Lightsnake
Oh, the COMIC'S WRITER confirming Vader's surrender isn't genuine means nothing? Please!

*atching ROTJ* Nope, no black glove. Just his human hand getting shot. You were saying?

Where's the conflict clear now? Where's the evidence except in your head? Oh, right it doesn't exist and it's contradicted by actually official stuff. Try again

Darth Vious
Originally posted by jollyjim311
Battle droids suck wrose than humans, you're just nit-picking now.
I'm not nit-picking, I am clarrifying. The only Humans who stood up to Battle Droids were Clone Troopers, not everyday people. As I asked, do you seriously think that Jabba's guards were as skilled as Clone Troopers?

General Zink
Originally posted by Darth Vious
He did, but, he didn't choke them, (which is a much more agressive technique) as Luke did. To be honest, by brushing them into the wall and preventing them from taking any action against him, Yoda was actually doing the guards a favor...

That's a redundant comment. Slamming them unconscious against a wall as a pre-emptive strike isn't as agressive as momentarily stunning them with a light choke?

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, the COMIC'S WRITER confirming Vader's surrender isn't genuine means nothing? Please!
So where does the writer say that? Provide a link.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
*atching ROTJ* Nope, no black glove. Just his human hand getting shot. You were saying?

You'd better keep watching and get your eyes tested then.
What hand is Luke shot in? (left or right)
Which of Luke's hands is artificial? (left or right)
Which hand is Luke holding the lightsaber in when it is shot ? (Left or right)

When Luke gets into the X-Wing, he pulls a black glove onto his right (artificial) hand and wears it till the end of the movie.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Where's the evidence except in your head? Oh, right it doesn't exist and it's contradicted by actually official stuff. Try again
Oh dear, you really are pathetic. You can't even see the evidence that is infront of you. You can't even keep canon orders straight in your head.

You still have not answered my question as to if you think Jabba's minions are as skilled as Clone Troopers, or are you finished embarassing yourself?

jollyjim311
Originally posted by Darth Vious
I'm not nit-picking, I am clarrifying. The only Humans who stood up to Battle Droids were Clone Troopers, not everyday people. As I asked, do you seriously think that Jabba's guards were as skilled as Clone Troopers?

Aliens resisting invasion beat clone droids, too. What are you getting at. PT Jedi were killed by droids, which are worse than the guard that shot Luke in the hand, doing no real damage at all. You have nothing in this argument.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by General Zink
That's a redundant comment. Slamming them unconscious against a wall as a pre-emptive strike isn't as agressive as momentarily stunning them with a light choke?
On the contrary, it is not. Who said it was a light choke, or that it was momentary? It was still an unnecessarily aggressive use of the Force on Luke's part. TPM has shown how fast a properly trained Jedi can move, why could Luke not simply have used a burst of speed to get passed them unnoticed?

jollyjim311
Because, he didn't want two gomorrians yelling about an intruder.

Lightsnake
It's called Insider as I've already said.

*Watching the scene* Nope, Luke's shot in the ungloved hand, cries out, whirls and kills the guard...it's the ungloved hand, try again!

And considering the average stormy can't get a shot off while the average Jabba guard is able to land a shot on Luke...yeah, in the movie context Jabba's guards are better.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by jollyjim311
Aliens resisting invasion beat clone droids, too. What are you getting at. PT Jedi were killed by droids, which are worse than the guard that shot Luke in the hand, doing no real damage at all. You have nothing in this argument.
Aliens are not Humans. Average Humans are not as good as droids.
Stop avoiding the question, do you think Jabba's minions are as well trained as Clone Troopers? Yes or No? I have plenty in this arguement, it's just the Skywalker fanboys who refuse to accept it.

jollyjim311
It's his artificial hand, but so what, Luke has the advantage of a better hand.

jollyjim311
Sure, Jabba had good thugs. Jesus, you're frustrating. Average PT Jedi were gunned down by far worse people. What the Hell is your point?

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Lightsnake
It's called Insider as I've already said.
Yes, and I want to see a link to the comment.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
*Watching the scene* Nope, Luke's shot in the ungloved hand, cries out, whirls and kills the guard...it's the ungloved hand, try again!
You didn't answer the questions. Try again.

What hand is Luke shot in? (left or right)
Which of Luke's hands is artificial? (left or right)
Which hand is Luke holding the lightsaber in when it is shot ? (Left or right)

When Luke gets into the X-Wing, he pulls a black glove onto his right (artificial) hand and wears it till the end of the movie.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And considering the average stormy can't get a shot off while the average Jabba guard is able to land a shot on Luke...yeah, in the movie context Jabba's guards are better.
I didn't say Storm Trooper, I said Clone Trooper. Try again.

Lightsnake
You even SEE Luke's good hand shot...see the mark on it?

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Lightsnake
You even SEE Luke's good hand shot...see the mark on it?
You still seem incapable of answering questions...

What hand is Luke shot in? (left or right)
Which of Luke's hands is artificial? (left or right)
Which hand is Luke holding the lightsaber in when it is shot ? (Left or right)

When Luke gets into the X-Wing, he pulls a black glove onto his right (artificial) hand and wears it till the end of the movie.

jollyjim311
Luke's artificial hand looks real, you do realize that, right? It was his fake hand. Still, having an artificial hand is an advantage for Luke.

Lightsnake
I don't recall left or right...we see his flesh covered hand shot, upon which he gives a short cry of pain and then kills the guard.

Oh, and his artificial hand changes several times. Continuity goof, y'know? Especially when he's riding the bike on Endor

Darth Vious
Originally posted by jollyjim311
Luke's artificial hand looks real, you do realize that, right? It was his fake hand. Still, having an artificial hand is an advantage for Luke.
That's aimed at Lightsnake, right?

jollyjim311
You say aimed like a bad thing. Yeah, I was telling him. Maybe it slipped his mind.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Lightsnake
I don't recall left or right...
Watch again!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
we see his flesh covered hand shot, upon which he gives a short cry of pain and then kills the guard.
No! You see the synthetic flesh covered artificial hand shot! Yes, he give a short cry of pain (probably a good deal of surprize too). If he had been shot in his organic hand, he would have dropped the lightsaber.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, and his artificial hand changes several times. Continuity goof, y'know? Especially when he's riding the bike on Endor
No! Continuity goofs explain reversed angle negatives, that I accept. The actual artificial hand does not change! Answer the questions:
What hand is Luke shot in? (left or right)
Which of Luke's hands is artificial? (left or right)
Which hand is Luke holding the lightsaber in when it is shot ? (Left or right)

Darth Vious
Originally posted by jollyjim311
You say aimed like a bad thing. Yeah, I was telling him. Maybe it slipped his mind.
Sorry, I wasn't sure if the comment was directed at me or him. It clearly has slipped his mind.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by jollyjim311
Sure, Jabba had good thugs.
Are 'good thugs' as good as Clone Troopers?

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Jesus, you're frustrating.
Only because I'm right, and you're wrong.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Average PT Jedi were gunned down by far worse people.
In the movies. When did that happen?

Originally posted by jollyjim311
What the Hell is your point?
My point, is that Luke was taken completely by surprize by a non-Force Sensitive Human Guard. (It took Clone Troopers to take down the Jedi during Order 66, and Human Guards are nowhere near that level of skill or training.) Had Luke's hand not been artificial, he would have been disarmed. RotS showed Zett Jukassa and Ki-Adi deflecting blaster bolts from Clone Troopers before they were ultimately outnumbered and overwhelmed. If they are capable of defending themselves (for a limited time) against such skilled opponents, what excuse does Luke(who had the arrogance to call himself a Jedi Knight) have for being taken by surprize by someone of much lesser skill than a Clone Trooper?

Lightsnake
Clone troopers are storm troopers.

Luke yells in pain when he's shot. Why would he do this if shot with an artificial hand? Answer the questions here: Why is the hand wounded? Why does Luke yell in pain? How does Luke best Vader if he;s so weak? Could any youngling best Vader who's 80 percent of Palpatine?

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Clone troopers are storm troopers.
No they are not. CLones aged at twice the speed of ordinary Humans. By the time of ANH, they would physically be in their 60s.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Luke yells in pain when he's shot. Why would he do this if shot with an artificial hand?
The hand still has a sense of touch. With Anakin's artificial hand, the fingertips were electrostatically sensitive to touch, but it had no synthetic skin, so it's sense of touch would have been limited. Luke's hand was a more advanced model than Anakins. It had synthetic skin and was entirely sensitive to touch (you can see that when it was grafted onto his arm in ESB)

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Answer the questions here: Why is the hand wounded?
It was hit by a blaster bold.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Why does Luke yell in pain?
The hand still has a sense of touch. With Anakin's artificial hand, the fingertips were electrostatically sensitive to touch, but it had no synthetic skin, so it's sense of touch would have been limited. Luke's hand was a more advanced model than Anakins. It had synthetic skin and was entirely sensitive to touch (you can see that when it was grafted onto his arm in ESB)

Originally posted by Lightsnake
How does Luke best Vader if he;s so weak?
Because Vader did not want to kill his son.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Could any youngling best Vader who's 80 percent of Palpatine?
Not any youngling, but, Luke was Vader's son. Do you understand the emotion involved there?

Darth Vious
Originally posted by jollyjim311
Because, he didn't want two gomorrians yelling about an intruder.
If he had used a burst of speed, I doubt the would have seen him. Gamoreans aren't exactly quick witted.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Clone troopers are storm troopers.

Luke yells in pain when he's shot. Why would he do this if shot with an artificial hand? Answer the questions here: Why is the hand wounded? Why does Luke yell in pain? How does Luke best Vader if he;s so weak? Could any youngling best Vader who's 80 percent of Palpatine?
I answered your questons. You still have not answered mine:

What hand is Luke shot in? (left or right)
Which of Luke's hands is artificial? (left or right)
Which hand is Luke holding the lightsaber in when it is shot ? (Left or right)

Lightsnake
And they can't make more clones...why? ROTS makes it clear: Stormies are clones.

Proof the hand has any sense of touch?

And nope, sorry, novelization said Vader could and did fight seriously because he knew his life was in danger. What do you have to counter that? canon evidence please

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Lightsnake
And they can't make more clones...why?
Because according to one of the games, the cloning facilities were destroyed. Storm Troopers were regular Human recruits.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Proof the hand has any sense of touch?
Watch the scene where the hand is being grafted onto Luke's arm.
The droid uses a needle to test the feeling in his fingers and palm. If I recall, he actually says "Oww" when it pokes his palm. Do you now accept that Luke was shot in his artificial hand by the guard?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And nope, sorry, novelization said Vader could and did fight seriously because he knew his life was in danger. What do you have to counter that? canon evidence please
Canon evidence is that Vader could not kill his own son. I think the novelisation makes reference to that as well.

Lightsnake
Fine, he's shot in the artificial hand.

Oh and Vader can't kill Luke...which is why he keeps saying Luke'll die if he doesn't join them and chucks a saber at him?

And oooh, sorry, game's not canon! Oh, there were multiple cloning facilities

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Fine, he's shot in the artificial hand.
Which is why he was able to hold onto his lightsaber. If he had been shot in his organic hand, he would have dropped it. Which brings me onto the other point: He was taken totally by surprize and shot in the hand (doesn't necessarily matter that it was artificial for this point) by a non-Force Sensitive Human Guard. Where in any of the movies has that happened to another Jedi?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh and Vader can't kill Luke...which is why he keeps saying Luke'll die if he doesn't join them and chucks a saber at him?
No, Vader couldn't kill Luke. He keeps saying that Luke will die if he doesn't join them, because Vader knows that if Luke does not turn, then Palpatine will kill Luke. (which ultimately, he tried to do, and would have succeeded in where it not for Vader's intervention)

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And oooh, sorry, game's not canon!
Fair enough. That doesn't change the fact that Storm Troopers were human conscriptees, not cloned troops.

Lightsnake
Many of the Jedi were shot by non-force sensitives...point is, Luke DIDN'T drop his saber and was fighting a small army.

Sorry, let's see you PROVE that the stormies were conscriptees...according to Lucas and EU there were recruitment centers and cloning facilities still open.

Once more: Vader chucks a saber at Luke with intend to take his head off

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Many of the Jedi were shot by non-force sensitives...
Who? Please be specific to the movies.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
point is, Luke DIDN'T drop his saber
Why didn't Luke drop his saber?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
was fighting a small army.
There were maybe a dozen guards on the barge, that hardly constitutes an army. Also, that brings back the original question. Are you suggesting that Jabba's guards were as well trained as Clone Troopers?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Sorry, let's see you PROVE that the stormies were conscriptees...according to Lucas and EU there were recruitment centers and cloning facilities still open.

Either way, they were still not the original Clone Troopers.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Once more: Vader chucks a saber at Luke with intend to take his head off
Vader was trying to provoke Luke into fighting. As I said before, Vader did not want to kill Luke, but knew that Palpatine would kill Luke if he did not turn to the Dark Side. (and as I said before, he would have killed him had Vader not intervened)

Back in 2 hours...

Lightsnake
Ki-Adi. Zett. Plo. Aayla...

BEcause Luke's good, plain and simple.

Jabba surrounds himself with the elite of the underworld, yep, they're good.

Sorry, Wiki's not canon! And they're still clones.

And you don't provoke someone by chucking a saber at them

Pyro Tyrannus
Originally posted by Darth Vious
Who? Please be specific to the movies.


Why didn't Luke drop his saber?


There were maybe a dozen guards on the barge, that hardly constitutes an army. Also, that brings back the original question. Are you suggesting that Jabba's guards were as well trained as Clone Troopers?



Either way, they were still not the original Clone Troopers.


Vader was trying to provoke Luke into fighting. As I said before, Vader did not want to kill Luke, but knew that Palpatine would kill Luke if he did not turn to the Dark Side. (and as I said before, he would have killed him had Vader not intervened)

Back in 2 hours...

I musty disagree. Vader was trying to kill Luke plain and simple. WHo throws a lightsaber without the intent to harm the target? Luke kicked Vader's ass.

Razielim
The whole point of the film was that Vader wanted to die for Luke.

Vader trying his hardest against Luke? LOL. He wasn't even putting up a fight. He was just backing away, ducking and occasionally blocking.

This Dark Lord of the Sith must suck quite a bit if he conventionally lost to a farm boy swinging a saber like a baseball bat.

Lightsnake
That 'boy' was stated to have achieved the level of Jedi knight and was able to stand on even ground with a Sith lord several times.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Ki-Adi. Zett. Plo. Aayla...
Neither Plo nor Aayla were able to defend themselves from the Clones that attacked them. Yoda pre-empted the Clone's attack (possibly heard them) but Ki-Adi and Zett were the only ones who actually realized that they were going to be attacked and defended themselves (if only for a few seconds)

Originally posted by Lightsnake
BEcause Luke's good, plain and simple.
No, the reason why Luke didn't drop his lightsaber, is because his hand was artificial. If it had been an organic hand, he would have dropped it.

Either way, it still does not change the fact that he was taken by surprize by a non-Force Sensitive Human Guard. That never happened to any of the PT Jedi on screen.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Jabba surrounds himself with the elite of the underworld, yep, they're good.
The elite of the underworld... You're sure? You're absolutely certain that Jabba's guards where the best?
Okay, explain this:
http://www.angelfire.com/nm/swslides/images/ROTJLandoSSlide.jpg
It would appear that Jabba needs to start reviewing his recruitment and selection process, if he is indeed, to be surrounded by the 'elite of the underworld'...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Sorry, Wiki's not canon! And they're still clones.
Okay, even if the Storm Troopers are clones, they are clearly not as well trained as the Clone Troopers.
Could you see ARCs getting WTFpwned by Ewoks?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And you don't provoke someone by chucking a saber at them
How do you know what it would take to provoke someone to fight if you knew their life depended on it?

Lightsnake
Yoda sensed them and put two and two together. And Ki only realized it because they were pointing guns at him

Except most Jedi were taken by surprise...and proof Luke would've dropped his saber? OH right there's none

image ain't showing up

ARCS exist? Movie evidence
What? you don't chuck a saber at someone after telling them it's 'turn or die' unless you intend to kill them

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Lightsnake
That 'boy' was stated to have achieved the level of Jedi knight
According to Yoda in RotJ, Luke would not be a Jedi untill he faced Vader. Luke would not have 'qualified' as a Jedi, until he was dragging Anakin across the hangar bay...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
and was able to stand on even ground with a Sith lord several times.
Several times? When did Luke duel Vader at any time other than ESB? When he did duel Vader in ESB, he was clearly on such 'even ground' that this happened:
http://starwarsdotcom.com/star_wars/gallery/characters/pics/luke/esb_luke69.jpg

Lightsnake
ESB, Splinter of the Mind's Eye....ROTJ...you were saying?

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yoda sensed them and put two and two together. And Ki only realized it because they were pointing guns at him
Yoda didn't sense them, because there was nothing for the Jedi to sense. The Clones were conditioned to follow any order without question. They were following a legitimate order from their commander in chief (Palpatine) so there was no hostile or malicioius intentions for the Jedi to detect, and that is why they were all (mostly) taken by surprise.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Except most Jedi were taken by surprise
See above answer to explain why they were taken by surprize. Jabba's guard, on the other hand, would have been quite detectable in his intentions. (Certainly by a better trained Jedi)


Originally posted by Lightsnake
and proof Luke would've dropped his saber?
Do you seriously think he would have been able to keep hold of the saber if he had been holding it in an organic hand that was hit by a blaster bold?

Originally posted by Lightsnake

image ain't showing up

F*cking Angelfire.... I wasn't sure if it would show up, but it appeared on my screen, but never mind... Proof that Jabba's minions are not the 'elite of the underworld'...
http://members.shaw.ca/mkuppe/c3/billydee1.jpg

Originally posted by Lightsnake
ARCS exist? Movie evidence
I'm sure they appear in RotS, if not, then can you imagine regular Clone Troops getting WTFpwned by Ewoks?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
What? you don't chuck a saber at someone after telling them it's 'turn or die' unless you intend to kill them
And how would you know? How do you know what would provoke someone into fighting. Vader tried several different tactics to get Luke to fight.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Lightsnake
ESB, Splinter of the Mind's Eye....ROTJ...you were saying?

Splinter of the Mind's Eye, are you f*cking serious??!! That book barely qualifies as EU anymore, let alone evidence of anything (other than Luke's incestuous feelings towards Leia) Let's be very clear here, the only time Luke fought Vader on screen prior to RotJ was at the end of ESB, and this is what happened:
http://starwarsdotcom.com/star_wars/gallery/characters/pics/luke/esb_luke69.jpg
Not exactly what I would call 'evenly matched'. Try again.

Lightsnake
ROTJ, then. And Splinter of the Mind's Eye is EU, thanks. The part about Luke dueling Vader most certainly is.

And Lando is Lando, he's an elite of anything. With his connections and two years...

The Jedi were surprised, get over it. Yoda sensed the deaths of the others and puts two and two together

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Lightsnake
ROTJ, then. And Splinter of the Mind's Eye is EU, thanks. The part about Luke dueling Vader most certainly is.
So parts of Splinter are EU and some aren't? If Luke duelling Vader is accepted, then what about the part where he has to restrain himself from kissing Leia while she's asleep? Or the attraction he has towards her regardless of his restraint?
In RotJ, Luke was on a more even footing than he was previously, but, that still does not change the fact that he swung his lightsaber like a baseball bat and hit the surrounding pipes more than Vader's blade. He is hardly the greatest swordsman in the history of lightsaber duellists.



Originally posted by Lightsnake
The Jedi were surprised, get over it. Yoda sensed the deaths of the others and puts two and two together
I'm not denying that the Jedi were surprized. That is clear. I was just pointing out the reason they were surprized.
Look at the scene on Geonosis between Jango and Mace. Did Jango actually pose any danger to Mace or did Mace take him down as if he were armed with a water pistol? Could you seeing one of Jabba's minions shooting the lightsaber had of Mace? Or Anakin? Or Obi-Wan? or Ki-Adi? I could go on... Fact was Luke was only taken by surprize by an everyday Human, is because when it comes to being a Jedi, he is not the most skilled.

Lightsnake
Yep, guess so, considering Luke had no idea she was his sister at the time. Oh, and once more: Mark Hamill using the saber makes no difference, unless you wanna admit Mace sucks

Fascinating, Luke was dealing with about ten other people, remember that? Oh and according to Mace...Jango DID pose a threat to him

jollyjim311
Dammit! Of course I left out one link. It would bother me not to put it up, well here it is: http://www.swcomics.com/empire_c.php?i=8&f=40&name=Star_Wars_-_Empire_40

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yep, guess so, considering Luke had no idea she was his sister at the time.
That does nothing to change the fact that he was attracted to her, and that kind of attraction does not just 'disappear'. How long did it take for Luke to hook up with Mara? How many women did he go through before her? What was wrong with any of them? Only thing I can think of was that they didn't come up to Leia's standard.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, and once more: Mark Hamill using the saber makes no difference,
I never said anything about Mark Hamill using the saber, so don't try and use that as a strawman. I've already pointed out that Mark, Dave and Sir Alec all had a fencing coach, and, Lucas said in a documentary, that the OT fights were being fought by people not fully in their prime (or lacking in training), so mentioning Hamill means absolutely nothing. He portrayed Luke as Lucas intended him to, and that was as someone who had a natural talent, but not a refined technique.


Originally posted by Lightsnake
Fascinating, Luke was dealing with about ten other people, remember that?
He was not dealing with them all at the same time, but one after the other. That still doesn't change the fact that he was completely taken by surprize by a non-Force sensitive Human, and the only reason he wasn't disarmed by the shot, was because his hand was artificial.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by jollyjim311
Dammit! Of course I left out one link. It would bother me not to put it up, well here it is: http://www.swcomics.com/empire_c.php?i=8&f=40&name=Star_Wars_-_Empire_40
Sorry, but a comic is not as canon reference as the movies. For a start, the design of Luke's lightsaber is wrong. That is Obi-Wan's lightsaber. The only time Luke used a lightsaber with a blue blade was when he had Anakin's. The saber he made for himself, (although being a similar design to Obi-Wan's) had a green blade. That said, it does show quite nicely that Storm Troopers weren't necessarily all clones, and that they couldn't stand up to a Jedi (no matter the Jedi's level of training)

Lightsnake
Man, you are such a hypocrite...The PT Jedi were allsurprised and Lucas said Luke became a true warrior by ROTJ. You miss how Luke was, y'know, busy with a small army? Hm?

Ok, Mace is a bad fighter and so's Yoda because their fight scenes are terrible. Don't start whining when your bullshit is shot down

Oh, and the design's fine.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Man, you are such a hypocrite...
No I'm not.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
The PT Jedi were allsurprised
Do you actually read what I write or do you just keep on regardless? I explained why the PT Jedi were taken by surprize (just incase you missed it the other times I said) It was because the Clones were following orders. They had no opinion about what they were doing, so there were no negative feelings for the Jedi to pick up on. The guard who surprized Luke in RotJ was not a clone, but a regular Human. Any other Jedi would have known his intention and acted upon it. Even Obi-Wan was able to react before someone could pull a blaster on him in ANH, and he had already admitted to Luke that he was "getting too old for this sort of thing..." If an old man can still defend himself, what was Luke's excuse? If you mean this half-a$$ed attempt at sarcasm:
Originally posted by Lightsnake
You miss how Luke was, y'know, busy with a small army? Hm?
Try reading and understanding my original answer to you. I can't even be bothered to retype it, so it's pasted:

Originally posted by Darth Vious
He was not dealing with them all at the same time, but one after the other. That still doesn't change the fact that he was completely taken by surprize by a non-Force sensitive Human, and the only reason he wasn't disarmed by the shot, was because his hand was artificial.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Lucas said Luke became a true warrior by ROTJ.
Lucas said in Feeling the Force documentary that Luke was a half-trained boy.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Ok, Mace is a bad fighter and so's Yoda because their fight scenes are terrible.
I never said that at all, you half-wit. Infact, I already pointed out how Mace dealt with Jango in the Geonosian arena as if Jango was firing a water pistol at him. What does Mace do? He just ran at him uninterupted and decapitated him. The shots Jango fired didn't even slow Mace down, he just deflected them and kept running.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Don't start whining when your bullshit is shot down
You want to heed your own advice, you dipshit. How many times did you have to be told yesterday that Luke was shot in his artificial hand in RotJ? How many times did you deny it? What was the outcome? Who was right? Oh that's right, I was, and then you got in a strop over it.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, and the design's fine.
laughinglaughinglaughinglaughing
You really might want to get your eyes tested, you're clearly having problems distinguishing one thing from another.
This is what Anakin's lightsaber looked like Obi-Wan gave it to Luke in ANH:
http://www.bothanstation.com/images/luke_saber.jpg

This is what it looked like when Luke lost it in ESB:
http://www.bothanstation.com/images/Luke_ESB_saber.JPG

This is what the saber that Luke built himself looks like:
(when ignited, it has a GREEN blade)
http://www.bothanstation.com/images/luke_rotj.JPG

This is what Obi-Wan Kenobi's lightsaber looked like in ANH:
(when ignited, it has a BLUE blade)
http://www.bothanstation.com/images/ben_saber.jpg

Here is the page that was previously linked. Look at the emitter and lower grip of the lightsaber in Luke's hand:
http://www.swcomics.com/empire_c.php?i=8&f=40&name=Star_Wars_-_Empire_40

Which of the lightsabers shown above does it look like?
What color is the blade?

Lightsnake
Sabers aren't differe,t I'd love your source on Luke being a half-trained boy and when that was said, and since you state Luicas isn't canon, well..

And you're a hypocrite. Go away

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Sabers aren't differe,t
Are you blind? Can you not see the differences between the four pictures I posted? Can you not identify the saber Luke is holding in the cartoon from those four sabers? Or are you just not prepared to admit that once more, you are wrong?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I'd love your source on Luke being a half-trained boy and when that was said,
You really don't read what I write, do you. I clearly said Feeling the Force Documentary. That was something Lucas said.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
and since you state Luicas isn't canon, well..
Do you agree with me?
According to 'the policy' around here, Lucas is ultimate canon (regardless of what I have said to prove otherwise) That means that for this debate, Lucas' word is correct, and I have given you Lucas' word.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And you're a hypocrite. Go away
No, you are a hypocrite. You cannot stand to be proven wrong or accept that you are wrong. I'm re-posting my previous post, and if you do not address every single individual point or answer every single individual question, you will have proven that you are an ignorant fool who is unprepared to admit when he is wrong, and I will not continue wasting my time debating with such a half-wit.

No I'm not.


Do you actually read what I write or do you just keep on regardless? I explained why the PT Jedi were taken by surprize (just incase you missed it the other times I said) It was because the Clones were following orders. They had no opinion about what they were doing, so there were no negative feelings for the Jedi to pick up on. The guard who surprized Luke in RotJ was not a clone, but a regular Human. Any other Jedi would have known his intention and acted upon it. Even Obi-Wan was able to react before someone could pull a blaster on him in ANH, and he had already admitted to Luke that he was "getting too old for this sort of thing..." If an old man can still defend himself, what was Luke's excuse? If you mean this half-a$$ed attempt at sarcasm:

Try reading and understanding my original answer to you. I can't even be bothered to retype it, so it's pasted:




Lucas said in Feeling the Force documentary that Luke was a half-trained boy.


I never said that at all, you half-wit. Infact, I already pointed out how Mace dealt with Jango in the Geonosian arena as if Jango was firing a water pistol at him. What does Mace do? He just ran at him uninterupted and decapitated him. The shots Jango fired didn't even slow Mace down, he just deflected them and kept running.


You want to heed your own advice, you dipshit. How many times did you have to be told yesterday that Luke was shot in his artificial hand in RotJ? How many times did you deny it? What was the outcome? Who was right? Oh that's right, I was, and then you got in a strop over it.


laughinglaughinglaughinglaughing
You really might want to get your eyes tested, you're clearly having problems distinguishing one thing from another.
This is what Anakin's lightsaber looked like Obi-Wan gave it to Luke in ANH:
http://www.bothanstation.com/images/luke_saber.jpg

This is what it looked like when Luke lost it in ESB:
http://www.bothanstation.com/images/Luke_ESB_saber.JPG

This is what the saber that Luke built himself looks like:
(when ignited, it has a GREEN blade)
http://www.bothanstation.com/images/luke_rotj.JPG

This is what Obi-Wan Kenobi's lightsaber looked like in ANH:
(when ignited, it has a BLUE blade)
http://www.bothanstation.com/images/ben_saber.jpg

Here is the page that was previously linked. Look at the emitter and lower grip of the lightsaber in Luke's hand:
http://www.swcomics.com/empire_c.php?i=8&f=40&name=Star_Wars_-_Empire_40

Which of the lightsabers shown above does it look like?
What color is the blade?

Legion_of_Maul
how many jedi knights do you know of that can survive the most powerful sith lord's lightning storm?

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Legion_of_Maul
how many jedi knights do you know of that can survive the most powerful sith lord's lightning storm?
Yoda.
Luke only survived because Anakin picked up Palpatine and flung him down the shaft. Had that not happened, he would have died.

Lightsnake
More insults and idiocy from Vious. Get over it: The EU's valid so shut up about it.

And moreover, you, every time you're proven wrong try to discredit the source, even Lucas

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Lightsnake
The EU's valid so shut up about it.
Do you not understand English? Do you have learning difficulties?
EU is not as valid as the movies. Is that simple enough for you?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And moreover, you, every time you're proven wrong try to discredit the source, even Lucas
I discredit the source by using a more canon form of evidence. That is how debate works. Do you not understand that?

You still have not responded to my above points or answered the questions about the lightsaber.
If, on the other hand, you should care to admit that you are wrong, then I will let the matter drop, but untill you either answer my question and prove me wrong or admit you are wrong yourself, I will just keep re-posting it.
This is what Anakin's lightsaber looked like Obi-Wan gave it to Luke in ANH:
http://www.bothanstation.com/images/luke_saber.jpg

This is what it looked like when Luke lost it in ESB:
http://www.bothanstation.com/images/Luke_ESB_saber.JPG

This is what the saber that Luke built himself looks like:
(when ignited, it has a GREEN blade)
http://www.bothanstation.com/images/luke_rotj.JPG

This is what Obi-Wan Kenobi's lightsaber looked like in ANH:
(when ignited, it has a BLUE blade)
http://www.bothanstation.com/images/ben_saber.jpg

Here is the page that was previously linked. Look at the emitter and lower grip of the lightsaber in Luke's hand:
http://www.swcomics.com/empire_c.php?i=8&f=40&name=Star_Wars_-_Empire_40

Which of the lightsabers shown above does it look like?
What color is the blade?

Lightsnake
Simple enough for you: It's valid here.


The saber looks like Luke's, it's a blue blade.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Simple enough for you: It's valid here.
Just because it's valid here, that still does not make it more valid than the movies! Get it?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
The saber looks like Luke's, it's a blue blade.
Which of Luke's sabers? The one he inherited from Anakin or the one he made himself?

Lightsnake
and unfortunately, you're in the rules of the forums and as those things are canon, they're more canon than or your interpretations, get it?

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Lightsnake
and unfortunately, you're in the rules of the forums and as those things are canon, they're more canon than or your interpretations, get it?
Answer the question.

Darth_Malazia
Originally posted by jollyjim311
Compared to Obi wan and Anakin's baton skills?...
Well, it seemed to work fine for him against Vader now didn't it? In ESB his saberwork is excellent. Oh yeah, and compare the scene on Jabba's sail barge to what we see some of the PT Jedi doing in the Geonosis arena, Luke does much better.

Yeah but, then again Vader/Anakin was much weaker by that time and he kicked lukes A$$ in ESB and then in ROTJ he beat Vader after he got very mad at the threat towards leia

Captain REX
That looks like Kenobi's, really. Depends on what time the comic takes place, doesn't it? He also has his father's lightsaber on the cover.

Originally posted by Darth Vious
...but untill you either answer my question and prove me wrong or admit you are wrong yourself, I will just keep re-posting it.

That would be spamming...

Originally posted by Darth Vious
Do you not understand English? Do you have learning difficulties?
EU is not as valid as the movies. Is that simple enough for you?

You're right there. Lightsnake, even though this is the EU forum...the movies still overrule.

Lightsnake
There's a difference, Rex: He's vetoing EU that in no way contradicts anything because it disproves him. I'm not pulling out pieces that say "Vader is Luke's cousin," Or anything, I'm showing pieces that elaborate on what happened in film

jollyjim311
A few things:
-All the links elaborate on what happened in between the movies, they can be used as sources and are part of the character.
-About the lightsaber: An artist just screwed up the drawing, so what?
-PT Jedi weren't just killed by surprise attacks from clones! Crappy battle droids have gunned them down in straight fights. Battle droids are far worse than Jabba's mercs. When put in a situation against harder opponents than some PT Jedi faced and died against, Luke walked away unharmed. Don't try to pretend like having a robotic hand is a bad thing, either. It is stronger and more durable than a normal hand.

Captain REX
I'll attest to that. Unless you modify it, the cybernetic limb has no feeling. In addition, depending on how you alter it, you can turn it into a deadly weapon! eek! My character Galder has a knife and a blaster built into his arm, as well as a secret compartment for his lightsaber.

Vader tooled up his synthetic limbs to be stronger. Hence the whole 'lifting people off the ground and breaking their necks with ease' awesomeness. Also, he keeps fighting even when missing an arm. wink

balanced_blade
Originally posted by jollyjim311
A few things:
-All the links elaborate on what happened in between the movies, they can be used as sources and are part of the character.
-About the lightsaber: An artist just screwed up the drawing, so what?
-PT Jedi weren't just killed by surprise attacks from clones! Crappy battle droids have gunned them down in straight fights. Battle droids are far worse than Jabba's mercs. When put in a situation against harder opponents than some PT Jedi faced and died against, Luke walked away unharmed. Don't try to pretend like having a robotic hand is a bad thing, either. It is stronger and more durable than a normal hand.

Those battle droids seriously outnumbered the jedi too. Yeah 1 on 1 a jedi could block the shot, but 20 to 1....

And for a jedi a robotic arm is bad. No force out of the hand that is robotic. Since when does a jedi need a more durable hand?

Sin Harvest
Originally posted by balanced_blade
Those battle droids seriously outnumbered the jedi too. Yeah 1 on 1 a jedi could block the shot, but 20 to 1....

And for a jedi a robotic arm is bad. No force out of the hand that is robotic. Since when does a jedi need a more durable hand?

He was referring to the Clone Wars not Battle of Geonosis where some Jedi were gunned down by Battle Droids in battle with Clone Troopers allies.

Captain REX
Originally posted by balanced_blade
And for a jedi a robotic arm is bad. No force out of the hand that is robotic. Since when does a jedi need a more durable hand?

Oh, they can still use the Force with that limb. I think there's an article in the Official Site's Answers & Questions section that addresses that nicely. The hand motions are just a focusing technique. Vader chokes Ozzel without moving a muscle, so the hand motions and whatnot are unneeded if they're powerful enough.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Captain REX
That looks like Kenobi's, really. Depends on what time the comic takes place, doesn't it? He also has his father's lightsaber on the cover.

Indeed, it is definitely Obi-Wan's (hilt details and color confirm it) Indeed, Luke did have Anakin's saber on the cover, but in the comic, the only saber he used was clearly Obi-Wan's. (Cover was probably drawn by a different artist to the main part of the comic, and the artist who drew the rest just used incorrect reference material for the saber... I've had that happen when I tried to make a replica of Anakin's AotC saber. I used the Visual Dictionary as the reference, but little did I realize, that the picture printed was actually reversed..)

Originally posted by Captain REX
That would be spamming...
So what's the proper 'netiquette' here? I ask a question that LightSnake ignores (most likely because it would prove him wrong). He responded quite clearly clearly that there was nothing wrong with the saber design (which there blatantly is) to my comment, and has ignored evey attempt to justify that opinion through clarrifying evidence (because it proved he was wrong) So how am I supposed to address that if I can't re-post the question and the accompanying evidence? Or should I just take his refusal to answer as proof that I'm right after all?

Originally posted by Captain REX
You're right there. Lightsnake, even though this is the EU forum...the movies still overrule.
Thankyou smile

Darth Vious
Originally posted by jollyjim311
-About the lightsaber: An artist just screwed up the drawing, so what?
-With regards to the artist, it is simply unprofessional. An artist should strive to be as accurate as possible with their work. As an artist myself, I can tell you that there is no greater frustration than doing something, only to find you used the wrong reference material (as I said above about my recreation of Anakin's AotC saber)
Would you say 'so what?' if you went to get a tattoo and the artist used the wrong reference material and drew the wrong thing on you?
-With regards to making a point of it with Lightsnake, I said that the saber was wrong, and he said it was not. The saber is clearly wrong. A few days ago, he tried arguing that in RotJ, Luke was not shot in his artificial hand. He's someone that will not accept being proven wrong, despite the evidence shown that does so.


Originally posted by jollyjim311
Don't try to pretend like having a robotic hand is a bad thing, either. It is stronger and more durable than a normal hand.
I'm not saying that an artificial hand is a bad thing. What I was saying (if you'd actually read my comments properly) was that the only reason Luke was not disarmed by the shot was because it hit his artificial hand. Had it been an organic hand, he would have dropped his lightsaber.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Captain REX
I'll attest to that. Unless you modify it, the cybernetic limb has no feeling.
The AotC visual dictionary clearly said about Anakin's artificial hand, that the fingertips were electrostatically sensitive to touch. It probably didn't transmit much in the way of texture or temperature, but it would have transmitted some tactile information. In CW, Anakin was clearly in pain when he pushed his hand through the forcefield (possibly due to energy conducted into his flesh by the metal of his hand, possibly due to the hand's sensors being overloaded) either way, it clearly caused him some discomfort, and he screamed when the hand exploded.
Luke's hand was a much more sophisticated model. The synthetic flesh would have transmitted much more in the way of tactile information. Luke cried out in pain when he his hand was shot. Not as much as if it had been an organic hand, but it still caused him some pain, so artificial hands do indeed have some feeling.

Darth Vious
Double Post due to net glitch

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Captain REX
Oh, they can still use the Force with that limb. I think there's an article in the Official Site's Answers & Questions section that addresses that nicely. The hand motions are just a focusing technique. Vader chokes Ozzel without moving a muscle, so the hand motions and whatnot are unneeded if they're powerful enough.
Indeed. I think the episode of CW showed it best where Anakin burst the Techno Union minion. He pointed the remains of his artificial hand at him, so mentally, he was clearly still thinking of making the Gesture of Influence, which then led to the bursting...

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