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I want to see what people think. Who wins this?

Well, I love Luke Sjywalker, probably my favouriet character next to Mace, and the original Jedi. But Dooku tools him.

Blaxican is a shining ray of truth. Dooku tools his ass.

Dooku gets owned. Pretty hard

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Dooku gets owned. Pretty hard




Always syicking out for the little guy huh Lightsnake?





No.

LS you are a f*cking moron. Dooku is a master duelist. Luke is the inventor of the let's swing the lightsaber around like a retarded kid with a baseball bat form. Luke is pwned so badly Vader feels like he got raped in the ass afterwards.

And Razielim, you're a dumbass as well for even thinking this would be a fight.

And Dooku's master duelist stature didn't stop anakin from beating him, now did it? And twenty years after when Vader was even better, Luke was able to...what's the word...defeat him? Yep.

What was that, Darin? Something amusing?

Yeah! Luke's few weeks training from Yoda makes him better than someone who spent 70 years refining the ultimate form of lightsabre combat.

Duh!

Actually Saine, don't call me a dumbass, thanks. I know Luke gets WTFBBQOWNED but I know people would argue for him. Hence why I made the thread.

Just like it was able to beat the guy who had twenty years of Sith training, ten years becoming one of the strongest Jedi the Order'd seen...
Luke mastered a a saber in a matter of, what, four years?

Oh, and while I'm on the subject: Samuel L. Jackson is terrible with a saber...does this mean Mace sucks?

When Vader wasn't even putting up a fight. Yeah, the slugger sure owned there.

And Sam doesn't suck with a saber. At least, he's not as bad as Hamill. And he was good enough to beat Palpatine when Palpatine was putting up a fight and was trying to kill him.

Debatable for one and Neither McDiarmid or Jackson were capable of handling a weapon whatsoever. And let's not get into Yoda in AOTC...the actor's ability with the sword doesn't reflect on the character.

And no, Vader was trying to fight back, Luke was simply beating him

Right, beating? You did see that Luke was simply bashing his saber against Vader's at the end right? As well, in ROTS, Anakin has one, count it ONE mechanical limb, so he had a lot more maneuverability then, and was able to beat Dooku.

In ROTJ he's almost completely machine, thus having nearly no maneuverability whatsoever. My grandmother could've beaten him then. Dooku was an acknowledged master of Form II, which was designes specifically to fight lightsaber wielding opponents. Luke was an acknowledged user of Form V, but he had hardly mastered anything about lightsaber combat.

Have you ever read the comics? Vader is damn fast and manueverable. Oh, and by the way...I doubt your granny's as tough as the Dark Woman, who Vader, y'know, KILLED. And the ROTJ novel makes it clear: luke won that fight

And Yeah, Luke was stated to have become a saber master by then.

I don't care who you are, you don't become a saber master after four years of training. Luke had damn near no training whatsoever other than the little he got from Ben on the Falcon and with Yoda. He maybe had time to get a handle on Forms I and V, but certainly not master either of them. Not to mention it doesn't even have to be a saber battle, as Dooku could just electrocute Luke to death easy.

He had more time than Exar Kun with more of a natural affinity in the arts he we was training in.

And Luke was able to resist Palpatine's lightning for a moment. He'd be able to match Dooku with Sabers at least. Several years is ample time to master saber combat, especially when you have the best to work with and a near instinctive control over the saber

Hmm, lets see...
Luke:
- Beat Jabba's guards almost single handedly
- Beat a Rancor unarmed
- Destroyed a Scout Trooper on a Speeder Bike
- Lifted 3PO into the air with the Force
- Defeated Darth Vader but only because Vader was conflicted and did not want to hurt his own son

Dooku:
- Tooled AOTC Anakin and Obi-Wan
- Put up a good fight against Yoda
- Tooled Asajj Ventress
- Dueled Mace and it was close
- Tooled ROTS Obi-Wan, who's alot stronger than ROTJ Luke, while fending off Anakin

Could ROTJ Luke tool AOTC Anakin and Obi-Wan, put up a good fight against Yoda and toll Asajj Ventress? Hell no, Dooku pwns Luke.

Oh, right, never mind Luke mastering a saber within the span of a couple years

You're not listening, to these people are you.
Luke did not master a lightsaber. He learned the basics. That does not make him a Master.
For what seems like the zillionth time, Anakin did not out-duel Dooku. He overpowered him, but he did not out-duel him. Dooku has almost 70 years more experience with a lightsaber than Luke. He mastered Makashi to it's highest degree.

Would you say that RotJ Luke was as good with a lightsaber as AotC Anakin?

Dooku cut Anakin's arm off with little trouble.
Coming down to Force abililities, RotJ was defenceless against Palpatine's Force lightning. If he'd been properly trained, he'd've known he could've grounded it on his lightsaber, but noo, he threw it asside to try and make a point. The only point he made was how little he understood about the Force or what Palpatine was capable of.

Dooku could use Force lightning to put Luke down before they even crossed blades, and if was a matter of a duel, he would disarm Luke (and I do mean that literally) within seconds.

Except it's said in a short time he was able to master the saber.
And nope, Dooku was outdueled, his defenses were gone

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Except it's said in a short time he was able to master the saber.
And nope, Dooku was outdueled, his defenses were gone
I can't even be bothered to keep typing out answers that you ignore. Read this again, and try and understand it this time:
Originally posted by Darth Vious
You're not listening, to these people are you.
Luke did not master a lightsaber. He learned the basics. That does not make him a Master.
For what seems like the zillionth time, Anakin did not out-duel Dooku. He overpowered him, but he did not out-duel him. Dooku has almost 70 years more experience with a lightsaber than Luke. He mastered Makashi to it's highest degree.

Would you say that RotJ Luke was as good with a lightsaber as AotC Anakin?

Dooku cut Anakin's arm off with little trouble.
Coming down to Force abililities, RotJ was defenceless against Palpatine's Force lightning. If he'd been properly trained, he'd've known he could've grounded it on his lightsaber, but noo, he threw it asside to try and make a point. The only point he made was how little he understood about the Force or what Palpatine was capable of.

Dooku could use Force lightning to put Luke down before they even crossed blades, and if was a matter of a duel, he would disarm Luke (and I do mean that literally) within seconds.

Except you're wrong since canon sources state otherwise. You lose, goodbye

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Except you're wrong since canon sources state otherwise. You lose, goodbye
Canon sources do not state otherwise, you moron. Nowhere does it say Dooku was out-duelled. The movie does not show him being out-duelled it shows him being overpowered. You're too stupid to see the difference, so you lose. Same goes for your opinon of Luke's use of a lightsaber. Why is it that you refuse to answer my questions when you know you will be proven wrong? Let's see if you can answer a really simple question:

Is Luke as good with a lightsaber as AotC Anakin? Yes or No.

ROTs novelization? Says he was outdueled. Chronology? Outdueled. Commentary and script? Outdueled, defeated.

Luke is better with a saber than AOTC Anakin. Easily. He is stated to have mastered the saber. He was taught in its use by Ben and Yoda. He has an instinctive grasp of it. End of story

Originally posted by Lightsnake
ROTs novelization? Says he was outdueled. Chronology? Outdueled. Commentary and script? Outdueled, defeated.
None of those sources are as valid as the movie, or if you insist, Lucas' opinion, and Lucas never said anywhere that Anakin outduelled Dooku. Outduelled and defeated do not mean the same thing.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Luke is better with a saber than AOTC Anakin. Easily.
Are you serious? That bit in AotC when Anakin chopped those insects from right next to Padme's head... that was precision swordsmanship. It's clear from RotJ how Luke swings a lightsaber like a bat and just hopes to hit something. If Luke had tried chopping those insects, Padme would have been decapitated. Anakin had ten years of lightsaber training in AotC, Luke had only even known about his heritage for what, four yours?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
He was taught in its use by Ben and Yoda.
Obi-Wan gave Luke maybe a few hours tuition on how to sense the Force, absolutely nothing on lightsaber duelling, and Yoda never discussed lightsaber technique with him at all.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
He has an instinctive grasp of it. End of story
His 'instincts' were little more than swinging it in the hope of hitting something! He had absolutely no finesse or style at all, all things that Dooku had. I'm not the only person who has said it, but plenty of others have too. Dooku would beat Luke, and he would beat him easily.

Yeah, and the movie says nothing one way or the other, everything except your opinion is going one way, get that through your ehad!
Fascinatin...also done with bluescreening, Hayden's better grasp of the stick, better CGI, etc...

Prove Yoda never discussed saber techniques with Luke. Commentaries said if Lucas had the time they'd have shown Yoda training Luke with a saber


Great, Mark Hamill couldn't fight! Neither could SLJ, did Mace suck? Unlike Hamill, Lee's done more sword fights than ANY ACTOR ALIVE.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yeah, and the movie says nothing one way or the other,
Actually, the movie 'said' this:
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c348/DefenderoftheInnocent/0f37dae9.jpg
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c348/DefenderoftheInnocent/3a8a9676.jpg
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c348/DefenderoftheInnocent/9376c8e3.jpg
That makes it clear that Anakin is physically overpowering Dooku, not outduelling him.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Fascinatin...also done with bluescreening, Hayden's better grasp of the stick, better CGI, etc...
It doesn't matter how it was filmed, the end result was that Anakin cut two insects while they were no more than a foot away from someone's head and did not cut their head off. RotJ makes it clear that all Luke can do is swing wildly and hope he hits something. That is not duelling skill.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Prove Yoda never discussed saber techniques with Luke.
Prove that he did. You just said Obi-Wan trained Luke with a saber, and I proved you wrong.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Commentaries said if Lucas had the time they'd have shown Yoda training Luke with a saber
That doesn't mean shit, because regardless of if they had the time or not, they did not show Yoda training Luke with a lightsaber. The final movie is very clear on that.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Great, Mark Hamill couldn't fight! Neither could SLJ, did Mace suck?
They both had fencing coaches. Lucas is very clear that the reason why the duels in the PT were better than the duels in the OT is because in the PT the duels were between an old man and a man who was partly machine, and a boy who had little training, but in the PT it was a case of Jedi in their prime. Lucas' own words made it clear that Luke did not have the same level of training as the PT Jedi.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Unlike Hamill, Lee's done more sword fights than ANY ACTOR ALIVE.
Yes. And other than the extreme close ups, all Count Dooku's duels in RotS were performed by a stunt double, because Christopher Lee wasn't physically capable of doing what was required.

After analkin drives him back, destroys his defenses, sends him reeling...Dooku lost, sorry.

Absence of proof isn't proof of absence...yep, Yoda'd send Luke against Vader and Palp without saber training...use your head. Oh, and we see Obi-wan train Luke with a saber in the movie. And yoda taught Luke saber techniques and according to lucas if they could have, they'd have showed that. and Luke's a Djem So user, meaning vicious swings are the norm. And does Mace Windu suck?

Great, and according to you, Lucas means nothing...we've seen machines and old men fight in the PT, they were great.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
After analkin drives him back, destroys his defenses, sends him reeling...Dooku lost, sorry.
I never denied that Dooku lost. I said that Anakin did not outduel him. If he had, then he would have cut Dooku while they were still dueling, not stood still and immobilized his arms.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Absence of proof isn't proof of absence
Yes it is.
Face it. There is nothing in ESB that showed Yoda training Luke with a lightsaber.



Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, and we see Obi-wan train Luke with a saber in the movie.
As I said, Obi-Wan was training Luke to sense the Force and using the saber as a tool to do that. He was not training Luke to duel with a lightsaber.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And yoda taught Luke saber techniques
Prove it. It's no where in the movie.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
and according to lucas if they could have, they'd have showed that.
But they didn't

Originally posted by Lightsnake
and Luke's a Djem So user, meaning vicious swings are the norm.
Yes. Vicious. Not uncontrolled.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And does Mace Windu suck?
They weren't anything spectacular in the movies, certainly not compared to some of the other characters. Mace's saber techniques were much better in CW than RotS.

That does nothing to change the fact that Lucas said why the PT duels were better, and why he said himself that Luke was not very experienced.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Great, and according to you, Lucas means nothing...
Yes, according to me. However, no one here is prepared to accept my opinion, so are you now agreeing with me that Lucas' words mean less than the films?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
we've seen machines and old men fight in the PT, they were great.
Not someone who was part man, part machine though, and that was what Lucas specified. As for your comparison of Dooku and Obi-Wan, Dooku had not spent 19 years living as a hermit in a desert. That is a harsh existence that would take a physical toll on anyone not acclimated to it from birth (which Obi-Wan was not)

We've seen Vader fight agiley. And fine. And Obi-wan was living fine with training with Qui-Gon

Yoda taught Luke saber fighting: Power of the Jedi, Insider, common sense.

See Dooku stumble when Anakin swings...that's outdueling him

Clone Wars is intentionally exagerrated. SLJ sucks with a sword, does Mace?

Yoda'd send Luke against Vader and Palp without saber training...use your head.

Clearly you need a hearing aid LS. In ESB Yoda specifically told Luke not to confront Vader. Nor did he say Luke should do it in ROTJ.

And your crap about how Anakin beat Dooku and therefore is better than him with a saber? I can beat a master swordsman if I tried, but would I outfight him? Not a chance in hell!

Dooku said himself Anakin was as fine a Djem So practitioner as he had ever seen. Anakin beat Dooku through raw, physical force and a brief turn to the Dark side, not through superior swordsmanship.

Dooku would utterly and completely curbstomp ROTJ Luke.

Except Dooku was figjting his best against Anakin and was sent stumbling by anakin even before Ani grabbed him.

And yes, the guy who beat Vader, who was above the Anakin who totally walked over Dooku when he fought seriously would get destroyed by Dooku, give me a break...same Luke who slaughteres a small army of elite Ssi-Ruuvi

Fact: Two moderators came and told you, Vious, that George Lucas's commentaries, statements, and beliefs regarding "in-universe" ordeals and situations is absolute canon, such is LFL's policy.

Fact: Lucas's RotS commentary, the official screenplay, and the novelization - as well as Palpatine's quote in RotS both support the idea that Count Dooku was simply bested because Anakin was better.

Speaking of which. According to you, Yoda's quote in ESB is indisputable. Rofl. The same thing applies to Palpatine, then, which proves that Anakin > Dooku in power.

Fact: You have no proof but a couple of screenshots - opening as an interpretation of the movie. Essentially, only your opinion.

Fact: I have more than an opinion.

Fact: You assume that you're disproving the entire LFL policy. It's policy. Policy is policy. Concrete. Lucas > the movies.

I'll post this on the relevent thread, too. Y'know, the "Dooku's Skills" one, just so you read it.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
We've seen Vader fight agiley.
Not as agilely as he did before he had his arms and legs cut off.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And Obi-wan was living fine with training with Qui-Gon
The time in the desert still took a toll on his health.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yoda taught Luke saber fighting: Power of the Jedi, Insider, common sense.
Not in the movie. Canon sources, please, not EU, magazines or assumptions.

Originally posted by Lightsnake

See Dooku stumble when Anakin swings...that's outdueling him
No it's not, that's overpowering him through being stronger. No amount of saber technique can prevent the force of a stronger person's blow staggering you.

Originally posted by Lightsnake

Clone Wars is intentionally exagerrated.
On the contrary, CW showed Jedi abilities to their fullest. They would have looked stupid moving real actors that way, but in a cartoon, it's accepted.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
SLJ sucks with a sword, does Mace?
Totally irrelevent to the point that Lucas never intended Luke to have the kind of duelling skills he intended Dooku to have, and his comments in documentaries have proven as much.

We've seen Vader do much more agile feats. And you know something? Screw your "Movies only" Bull when you don't even stick to this. This is an EU forums and the damn rules state EU can be used.

Proof time in the desert effected Obi-wan? He looked damn healthy

Ani drives Dooku back, sends him stumbling for balance, THEN grabs and disarms him.

Gendy himself said they exagerrated Jedi abilities on CW commentaries, try again.

Except Lucas did intend Luke to be a swordsman. Get over it. It's why he's beating Vader

Not to be antagonistic, but I could've swore that Yoda said: "Vader, you must confront Vader, only then a Jedi will you be."



Palpatine in RotS, Lucas in the commentary, the official screenplay, and the novelization all state that he did beat Dooku through superior lightsaber ability.



Faulty logic. Djem So utilizes brute strength and capability. Meaning that Anakin's move was part of his lightsaber form. Meaning that, once again, he bested him through superior ability.



Nah. Beat him? Yeah, possibly. But I doubt he'd curbstomp him.

Originally posted by Darin Saine
Yoda'd send Luke against Vader and Palp without saber training...use your head.

Clearly you need a hearing aid LS. In ESB Yoda specifically told Luke not to confront Vader. Nor did he say Luke should do it in ROTJ.

And your crap about how Anakin beat Dooku and therefore is better than him with a saber? I can beat a master swordsman if I tried, but would I outfight him? Not a chance in hell!

Dooku said himself Anakin was as fine a Djem So practitioner as he had ever seen. Anakin beat Dooku through raw, physical force and a brief turn to the Dark side, not through superior swordsmanship.

Dooku would utterly and completely curbstomp ROTJ Luke.
Precicely.

Originally posted by Escape81
Fact: Two moderators came and told you, Vious, that George Lucas's commentaries, statements, and beliefs regarding "in-universe" ordeals and situations is absolute canon, such is LFL's policy.
If two people told me that the Earth was flat, that wouldn't necessarily make it so. I've provided evidence (both from Star Wars and a non-related subject so the issue is purely creator's intention over finished product) but no one is accepting that evidence. That does not mean that my point is wrong.

Originally posted by Escape81

Fact: Lucas's RotS commentary, the official screenplay, and the novelization - as well as Palpatine's quote in RotS both support the idea that Count Dooku was simply bested because Anakin was better.

Speaking of which. According to you, Yoda's quote in ESB is indisputable. Rofl. The same thing applies to Palpatine, then, which proves that Anakin > Dooku in power.

Neither of which said he was a superiour swordsman, a point you just made clear to LS above.

Originally posted by Escape81
Fact: You have no proof but a couple of screenshots
That is the only proof from the movie that I can provide. I can watch the DVD over, and I can tell someone to watch the DVD over, but that doesn't mean they will see the part I mean. A screenshot is the best way (short of somehow linking the entire clip) of showing the specific action I refered to. And that you agree, is Anakin overpowering Dooku, not outduelling him.

Originally posted by Escape81
Fact: You assume that you're disproving the entire LFL policy. It's policy. Policy is policy. Concrete. Lucas > the movies.
I am disproving the policy. I have disproved the policy. Policies can be changed.

Where've you disproved LFL's big canon policy exactly? The one they've had for years? The policy>Your opinion, get over it.

Big deal. One of Lucas's ideas were cut from the movie. Perhaps he was the one who ultimately oversaw the change? So what? Lucas is still the canon source.



"Soon I shall have a new apprentice . . . one far younger and more powerful."

Doesn't mention potential. Doesn't mention physical strength. According to Palpatine, Anakin has already become more powerful than Dooku.



They weren't fencing. They were fighting to the death. If they were just dueling - then Dooku would never have used the Force against Obi-Wan Kenobi. Trumped there. Dooku used something other than his lightsaber to put Kenobi out of the fight. That move is easily as legitimate as Anakin's.

Trumped again.



No. You have not.

And Anakin has little to do with RotJ Luke.

How clumsy you all are! Anakin just beat Dooku in pure saber combat! That doesn't mean he out dueled him, duh!
Seriously, Anakin>Dooku. All you're saying is that if Anakin had the strength of an 8 year old girl, he couldn't have won. His strength is part of him. If Dooku had arms the size of Yoda's he would have lost to Anakin or Obi Wan in AOTC. What now?! What now?!

Originally posted by Generic Hero
And Anakin has little to do with RotJ Luke.

He's brought up the argument about Anakin to try to help him in the argument about Luke. I've even said that the "Dooku's Skills" thread is the only relevent one. But Vious is assuming his opinion is superior to all others.

Understand?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
We've seen Vader do much more agile feats.
Not on screen, and not compared to how agile he was in AotC or RotS.



Originally posted by Lightsnake
Screw your "Movies only" Bull when you don't even stick to this.
But I do stick to it. You're the one who keeps trying to bring EU into the discussion because there's no canon proof of your opinions.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
This is an EU forums and the damn rules state EU can be used.
Yes. But. EU still does not mean more than the canon of the movies.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Proof time in the desert effected Obi-wan? He looked damn healthy
Compared to Count Dooku? I think not.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Gendy himself said they exagerrated Jedi abilities on CW commentaries, try again.
I'll recheck the commentaries tomorrow, I'm too tired to do so now.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Except Lucas did intend Luke to be a swordsman.
Yes. He did. He did not, however, intend him to be a) a swordsman of Dooku's standard or b) a swordsman of the standard fanboys hold him to despite evidence to the contrary.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It's why he's beating Vader
Once more, a younger, more agile and more powerfull opponent beating down an older and less vulnerable one who did not want to kill, is not outduelling. For f*cks sake, Escape and I hardly see eye to eye on things, but even he's telling you that Dooku would make mincemeat out of Luke.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
How clumsy you all are! Anakin just beat Dooku in pure saber combat! That doesn't mean he out dueled him, duh!
Seriously, Anakin>Dooku. All you're saying is that if Anakin had the strength of an 8 year old girl, he couldn't have won. His strength is part of him. If Dooku had arms the size of Yoda's he would have lost to Anakin or Obi Wan in AOTC. What now?! What now?!

I agree with most if it, except about Yoda. Yoda actually pushed back every saber lock he got involved in with Dooku - and with Sidious, I think.

But that's because Yoda used the Force to help him.

*Looks at forum rules* EU goes. Deal with it, or shut up.

EU is C-canon, close enough. You have nothing but your opinion when every piece of evidence goes against you.

Obi-wan looked healthier than Dooku...mainly as Sir Alec was a lot younger than Chris at the time of filming.

Luke is identified as a master swordsman in Lucas collaborated material (Novelizations) and Lucas had him beat Vader. Who was trying. As if he didn't try he'd be dead from Luke's attack. Notice Vader actually SWINGS AT LUKE'S HEAD at one point?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Where've you disproved LFL's big canon policy exactly? The one they've had for years? The policy>Your opinion, get over it.
Look at the Dooku thread and the link I posted to a scene cut from ESB. It shows Luke clearly intending to kiss Leia. Lucas wrote that scene, but Kirshner cut it from the movie. ESB was not finished 100% to Lucas' intentions when he wrote it. That proves that a movie can overrule his opinon or intentions. People just don't like that because it shows Luke having an unnatural attraction to Leia (which was also in Splinter of the Mind's Eye)

Originally posted by Escape81
He's brought up the argument about Anakin to try to help him in the argument about Luke. I've even said that the "Dooku's Skills" thread is the only relevent one. But Vious is assuming his opinion is superior to all others.

Understand?
Don't presume to speak for me, or my opinion. I'm assuming nothing, and simply stating facts as detailed in the movies.

LS, I fail to see how making someone off balance and driving them back shows superior swordsmanship. Hell, my little brother can do that to someone, his he a badass swordsman? No. It was an old man against a strong, young Jedi, master duelist or no, when your opponent gets to strengthswinging, age comes into play.

And everyone apparently assumes that this has to be a saber duel. Dooku electrocutes Luke. Or picks him up with the Force and throws him over a cliff.

Saber skills: Dooku is a master duelist, Luke's been using a saber for four years, Dooku > Luke

Force skills: Dooku can use Force lightning, Luke cannot block it long enough to survive against it. Dooku > Luke.

No, I meant a Dooku with little teeny Yoda arms. :P

Dooku's fought stronger people than Anakin and walked all over them...funny how you cling to this "Oh, he's only an old man!" Shit when Dooku takes a loss.

And Luke's capable of resisting telekenisis and resisting lightning, thanks.

Fact: Luke is also a master duelist, ROTJ novelization says he is.

And no, Vious...saying there's 'a deleted scene' doesn't change the canon policy. It just means a scene was cut and thus does not factor, putting it in the canon policy as S or N....as DEFINED BY THE CANON POLICY ITSELF

Originally posted by Lightsnake
*Looks at forum rules* EU goes. Deal with it, or shut up.

EU is C-canon, close enough. You have nothing but your opinion when every piece of evidence goes against you.
EU might 'go', but it still does not overrule Canon. Deal with that or shut up. I have evidence from the movies, you don't even have that!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Obi-wan looked healthier than Dooku
Bullshit!
Obi-Wan said to Luke that he was getting 'too old for this sort of thing', and at that point, he was at least 20 years younger than Dooku had been in AotC, and he was by no means 'too old' to beat Anakin and Obi-Wan. That is movie evidence, not opinion.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Luke is identified as a master swordsman in Lucas collaborated material (Novelizations) and Lucas had him beat Vader. Who was trying. As if he didn't try he'd be dead from Luke's attack. Notice Vader actually SWINGS AT LUKE'S HEAD at one point?
And novelizations do not overrule the movie, particularly if they contradict the movie. Lucas' own words on documentaries have said that Luke was not as skilled a swordsman as Jedi in the PT or, in his own words "in their full flower".

Touche. Dooku sparred with General Grievous quite often, who is vastly stronger than Anakin.

Lucas also describes Luke as a half-trained boy. Now, how the hell is a half trained boy gonna stand up to one of the best duelists in "the Golden Age of lightsabre dueling" ?

Originally posted by Darin Saine
LS, I fail to see how making someone off balance and driving them back shows superior swordsmanship. Hell, my little brother can do that to someone, his he a badass swordsman? No. It was an old man against a strong, young Jedi, master duelist or no, when your opponent gets to strengthswinging, age comes into play.

And everyone apparently assumes that this has to be a saber duel. Dooku electrocutes Luke. Or picks him up with the Force and throws him over a cliff.

Saber skills: Dooku is a master duelist, Luke's been using a saber for four years, Dooku > Luke

Force skills: Dooku can use Force lightning, Luke cannot block it long enough to survive against it. Dooku > Luke.

Respond to my post to you, please.

And Luke's capable of resisting telekenisis and resisting lightning, thanks.

Oh, so I just imagined it when he got his ass electrocuted by Palpatine in ROTJ. And where has he resisted telekinesis? Please remember the thread title is ROTJ Luke vs. Dooku, so please keep any bullshit references to Return of the Jedi, not DE, EU or whatever the hell else you've been pulling out of your ass.

EDIT: Escape, quote it for me please, I must've missed it.

Originally posted by Lightsnake

And no, Vious...saying there's 'a deleted scene' doesn't change the canon policy. It just means a scene was cut and thus does not factor, putting it in the canon policy as S or N....as DEFINED BY THE CANON POLICY ITSELF
It means that Lucas wrote the scene (with the intention of it being used) and it was not included. Once more. End result overrules the creator's intention.

Contradictions from canon besides your delusions? Nothing. Sorry, EU is c-canon, it goes and can be used in this argument as defined by forum rules, shut up, thanks.

Oh, gives me a break. Have you SEEN Chris lately? He's in his damn eighties. alec looked much healthier then than Chris does now.

Except Lucas said nothing of the sort, your'e assuming that. And aren't Lucas's interpretations worthless next to actual written canon? Hm, sorry.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Contradictions from canon besides your delusions? Nothing. Sorry, EU is c-canon, it goes and can be used in this argument as defined by forum rules, shut up, thanks.

Oh, gives me a break. Have you SEEN Chris lately? He's in his damn eighties. alec looked much healthier then than Chris does now.

Except Lucas said nothing of the sort, your'e assuming that. And aren't Lucas's interpretations worthless next to actual written canon? Hm, sorry.
Once more, you have ignored everything I wrote, so I will post it again.

Originally posted by Darth Vious
EU might 'go', but it still does not overrule Canon. Deal with that or shut up. I have evidence from the movies, you don't even have that!


Bullshit!
Obi-Wan said to Luke that he was getting 'too old for this sort of thing', and at that point, he was at least 20 years younger than Dooku had been in AotC, and he was by no means 'too old' to beat Anakin and Obi-Wan. That is movie evidence, not opinion.


And novelizations do not overrule the movie, particularly if they contradict the movie. Lucas' own words on documentaries have said that Luke was not as skilled a swordsman as Jedi in the PT or, in his own words "in their full flower".

Yes, Lucas did say that, it was on a Sky One Documentary called Feeling the Force.

Eh, I'm done with the delusional, whiny little hypocrite. anyone else actually care to debate for real, I'll be back in a few days.

Did I ever say it wasn't canon dumbf*ck? No, I said that it shouldn't be used in this argument since the thread is arguing ROTJ Luke against Dooku.

Fascinating! Why don't you try to read and see who the message was directed at and realize that I was talking about ROTJ Luke.
Kids these days

Fascinating! You've still ignored my point about where in the OT Luke resisted telekinises or Force lightning. Dumbasses these days.

But...Lucas's comments aren't canon, right, Vious? His interpretations don't matter and other canon sources have called Luke a master able to defeat a skilled and experienced Sith Lord and even deflect Palpatine's lightning for an instant.

And yes, we see Obi-wan struggling for breath like dooku...don't recall Vader outmuscling him, either. Let's take a page from Vious's book now...other sources and the movie show differently.

And I'd love this quote, because Lucas's also said it shows how far Luke's come and become a true Jedi and warrior

Originally posted by Darin Saine
Fascinating! You've still ignored my point about where in the OT Luke resisted telekinises or Force lightning. Dumbasses these days.
Reissted TK in Empire from Imperial drones and Vader's attempt to grip him in the escape from Mimban. Resisted Palpatine's lightning for an instant according to the ROTJ novelization.
You were saying?

Alright, I can see the telekinises, but an instant against lightning isn't going to save his ass if Dooku decides to deep fry him.

Against PALPATINE'S lightning? An instant is quite the feat, especially with Palp by ROTJ. And Dooku's lightning is not only nowhere near as strong, Luke's got his saber on him

Oh right, so of course Luke would be able to duplicate Mace's Vaapad long enough to save his ass against anyone's lightning.

I doesn't take a genius to deflect Force lightning with a saber,smartass.Remember Obi-Wan in AOTC?He did it without even trying with his own saber.

LMAO!!!!! How can anyone possibly think that the almighty Count would lose to ROTJ Luke?!?!?! Dooku is leagues above Luke. Yes Luke will eventually become more powerful, but in ROTJ he doesnt show anything special in terms of saber skills or force abilities. Dooku however has a vast list of accomplishments including:
-holding his own in a duel against Yoda (who everyone thinks is god!!)
-can shoot and reflect force lightning with his hand
-wtf pwned AOTC Kenobi and Skywalker
-wtf pwned ROTS Kenobi while fighting Skywalker
-can easily beat General Greivous

The list goes on. I forgot to mention a very important point - Dooku is a master of Makashi. This is bred for saber duelling. Lukes clumsy swings will be no effort at all for The Count to dodge/block. The with a simple flick of his lightsaber, Dooku will kill Luke. I understand that I can be a massive fanboy at times, but im not blowing things out of proportion this time. Dooku wtf pwns Luke with ease.

Ummm, no. Vader was far more skilled than Dooku by that point and Luke's been able to match him...three times?

And Luke's a master of Djem So, which means Dooku is ****ed.

And you forget something, Oxy boy:
D: Dooku was wtfpwned by ROTS Anakin whose level Luke is on at least

Originally posted by Lightsnake
But...Lucas's comments aren't canon, right, Vious?
I'm not saying that Lucas' comments aren't canon, clearly they are, but, the movies are the higher level of canon, as they show the final result of the movie compared to his original intentions when writing it.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
other canon sources have called Luke a master
Luke was not called a Master in any of the original movies. The novelizations might say he mastered the use of something, but they were written when the term applied to having learned a skill. You have (I assume) mastered riding a bicycle. That doesn't mean you're a Master of The Bike, which someone like Matt Hoffman is. The English language has moved on in the thirty years since the movies came out. If you were to transport someone from the 60s to Present day LA, there would be any number of expressions that they would not understand, or thought had a different meaning.
Ever seen 51st State? Where Robbie Carlyle offers Sam a cigarette by saying 'Eff Aye Gee' (censor won't allow the written word)? In the UK, that is a commonly used term for cigarettes, it is not just a way of calling someone a homosexual, like it is in America. Do you see the point I'm trying to illustrate? The phrase 'had mastered' just meant Luke had learned to do something. It didn't make him a Master of that weapon.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
even deflect Palpatine's lightning for an instant.
Where in the movie of RotJ did Luke do that? Nowhere. He just fell to the floor and made a sound like he'd soiled himself. (probably had too)

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Let's take a page from Vious's book now...other sources and the movie show differently.
If you want to take a page from my book, you arrogant little shit, let's do it properly and compare relevent levels of canon with relevent levels of canon. The movies are the highest. They outweigh novelisations.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And yes, we see Obi-wan struggling for breath like dooku
In AotC, Dooku was not struggling for breath against Obi-Wan or Anakin, both of whom he had outduelled (by injuring them with his lightsaber)

Originally posted by Lightsnake
don't recall Vader outmuscling him, either.
Indeed, Vader didn't outmuscle Obi-Wan, nor did he out-duel him. The fact is Pbi-Wan stopped fighting. He stopped blocking or defending himself. He wanted Vader to strike him down so he could become one with the Force and continue to instruct and advise Luke. This is clear by the look he gives to Luke prior to raising the hilt of his lightsaber to his head and closing his eyes (clearly meditating)

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And I'd love this quote, because Lucas's also said it shows how far Luke's come and become a true Jedi and warrior
And what quote is that? The only one I've mentioned is the one where Lucas said that untill the PT, no one had seen a duel between Jedi in their full flower, just an old man, another who was part machine, and a half-trained boy.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Ummm, no. Vader was far more skilled than Dooku by that point and Luke's been able to match him...three times?

And Luke's a master of Djem So, which means Dooku is ****ed.

And you forget something, Oxy boy:
D: Dooku was wtfpwned by ROTS Anakin whose level Luke is on at least
Oh dear. Once more, you forget. The first time Luke duelled Vader in the movie, he got his hand cut off. Let's enjoy that look on his face again as his hand goes sailing into the shaft... Theeere it goes....
http://starwarsdotcom.com/star_wars/gallery/characters/pics/luke/esb_luke69.jpg

The second time Luke fought Vader, Vader did not want to kill Luke. (Vader did not want to kill Luke in ESB either, he was very clear about that with his instructions about the carbonite freezing)
That's two examples of movie evidence to one severely ridiculed EU novel.

Next. In RotJ, Luke was not a Master of Djem So, he had just mastered the basics of it. You can't deny how wildly he is swinging his saber in the final duel. He hits the pipes more than Vader's blade. He is completely blinded by rage, and has lost any attempt of controlling what he does. Dooku could deflect such wild swings with ease, most likely taking Luke's arm off in the process. Dooku had no trouble at all in taking Anakin's arm in AotC, and Anakin was by that point, a much more skilled saber duellist than Luke, not only due to his incredible Force potential, but also his decade of formal training under Obi-Wan and others like Cin Drallig. Luke had (on screen) maybe five minutes of general handling of a lightsaber from Obi-Wan and nothing in the way of duelling training from him, and none on screen from Yoda either. To point out RotS Anakin is just ludicrous, as Luke has nowhere near that level of training, or power. Face it, RotJ Luke would stand no chance against Dooku in a duel, and he clearly didn't even know how to ground Force lightning on his lightsaber, or he would not have thrown it away when he renounced Palpatine.

First time Luke duels Vader: Vader's arm is removed
Second time: Luke loses, after a good fight
Third time: Oh, yes, Vader;s on the ground beaten


Blah blah, blah, Vious...noticing how the novelizations all call you wrong? And here's a fun fact: Luke knew fighting Palpatine would do nothing but give into the Dark Side. Yoda even realized that actively fighting Palpatine only made him stronger.

And nope, Luke was stated to have instinctively mastered the saber. Canon. youc annot argue with it. shut up.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
First time Luke duels Vader: Vader's arm is removed
That duel took part in an EU BOOK that people barely recognize! It is useless as evidence!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Second time: Luke loses, after a good fight
Luke lost because Vader was a) better than Luke and b) Did not want to kill Luke! He was very clear that Luke had to survive the carbonite freezing, and that he was no good to him dead! Those are lines from the movie! The movie outweighs the novelizations of it.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Third time: Oh, yes, Vader;s on the ground beaten
Once more: Vader did not want to kill Luke

Originally posted by Lightsnake

Blah blah, blah, Vious...noticing how the novelizations all call you wrong?
I'll blah blah blah you into the middle of next week, you ignorant little shit! The novelizations do not superceed the movies. Do you not comprehend that? Do you not understand what that means? I am quoting facts from the movies. The moviesoutweigh anything in the movies. You. Are. Wrong. Accept it.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yoda even realized that actively fighting Palpatine only made him stronger.
Where in the movie of RotS did Yoda realize that? What was the look on Palpatine's face before the shockwave blasted him and Yoda apart? Was he:
a) Confident
b) Calm
c) Concerned

It's used in the Chronology, therefore it goes. This is an EU forum, get over it.

Vader was willing to fight to his best against Luke.

Great, where to the novelizations circumvent the movies in their writings? They don't. They give clarity on some issues. And your opinion won't stop them. Blah, blah, blah, you whiny elitist...are we getting angry? Does the little egotist need to insult to get his point across? Awww, whine whine whine, Vious.

He realizes it in the novelization with approval and review from Lucasfilm and thus it is EU and thus C or G-canon and thus permissible in this argument.

QED, moron

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It's used in the Chronology, therefore it goes.
Since when does the Chronology superced the movies for accuracy?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
This is an EU forum, get over it.

You need to get over that even in an EU forum, EU does not surpass canon movies for accuracy.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Vader was willing to fight to his best against Luke.
But he was not willing to kill him. ESB was clear that he needed Luke alive.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Great, where to the novelizations circumvent the movies in their writings? They don't. They give clarity on some issues.
They might clarify, but they still do not overrule the movie as the most accurate version of the story. The movies are the most accurate canon.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And your opinion won't stop them.
It is not my opinion that the movies are the highest canon, it is a fact

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Blah, blah, blah, you whiny elitist...are we getting angry? Does the little egotist need to insult to get his point across? Awww, whine whine whine, Vious.
I don't need to insult to get my point across, I just enjoy doing it. You're the one who's refusing to accept that you are wrong, and that the movies supercede the EU evidence you're throwing out. You refused to accept that you were wrong about Luke's artificial hand, but you were. You are wrong about this too. It frustrates me that I am writing explanations that you are ignoring either because you can't understand them, or just won't accept that you are wrong.

Originally posted by Lightsnake

He realizes it in the novelization with approval and review from Lucasfilm and thus it is EU and thus C or G-canon and thus permissible in this argument.
What part of this do yu not understand? Novelizations do not overrule the movies It might be permissible as evidence in a debate, but evidence taken from the movies overrules it as more valid.

the point is who do you think is better ROTS dooku's lightning or ROTJ sids lightning, BTW sids has had a whole six episodes to improve his lightning and dooku has had like two or one. if luke can survive sids lightning storm then do you think luke can survive a barely learned dooku storm?

Originally posted by Legion_of_Maul
the point is who do you think is better ROTS dooku's lightning or ROTJ sids lightning, BTW sids has had a whole six episodes to improve his lightning and dooku has had like two or one. if luke can survive sids lightning storm then do you think luke can survive a barely learned dooku storm?
As I said in the other thread. Luke only survived Palpatine's attack because Anakin intervened and threw him down the shaft. Had that not happened, Luke would not have survived. He did not have a lightsaber to ground the Force lightning on, nor would he have had the skill to absorb or reflect it by hand, so that does nothing to change the fact that Dooku would WTFpwn Luke in a matter of seconds. Probably even quicker than he did Obi-Wan in AotC.

Except Luke's a master by then, sorry. And Dooku's not nearly as strong as Vader whom Luke was able to equal on three occasions with two wins and one loss.

Your only defense: Only teh movies are canon! Sorry, but the RULES IN THIS FORUM are that EU goes, thus overriding your opinion completely...but wait...the egotist thinks his opinion overrides Lucas's as we've seen on sevral occasions

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Except Luke's a master by then, sorry.
No he wasn't!!! The movie was clear about that! Luke was never a Jedi Master in any of the movies!.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Sorry, but the RULES IN THIS FORUM are that EU goes,
Yes, EU goes, but where in the RULES OF THIS FORUM does it say that EU OVERRIDES the movies as canon? IT DOES NOT SAY IT ANYWHERE!!!!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
thus overriding your opinion completely...
The only opinion being overriden here, is yours. Also, if anyone's an egoist here, it's you. You won't accept the canon movie facts that contradict the EU, thus proving your fanboy worship of Luke to be wrong.

Master of the saber. Anakin was a saber master before he was even a knight.

Actually, you're trying to present your opinion and interpretation as fact, so don';t even start. EU's not overriding anything, you're trying to throw that out just because it shoots down your opinion

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Master of the saber. Anakin was a saber master before he was even a knight.
As I said before:
Luke was not called a Master in any of the original movies. The novelizations might say he mastered the use of something, but they were written when the term applied to having learned a skill. You have (I assume) mastered riding a bicycle. That doesn't mean you're a Master of The Bike, which someone like Matt Hoffman is. The English language has moved on in the thirty years since the movies came out. If you were to transport someone from the 60s to Present day LA, there would be any number of expressions that they would not understand, or thought had a different meaning.
Ever seen 51st State? Where Robbie Carlyle offers Sam a cigarette by saying 'Eff Aye Gee' (censor won't allow the written word)? In the UK, that is a commonly used term for cigarettes, it is not just a way of calling someone a homosexual, like it is in America. Do you see the point I'm trying to illustrate? The phrase 'had mastered' just meant Luke had learned to do something. It didn't make him a Master of that weapon

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Actually, you're trying to present your opinion and interpretation as fact
No I'm not. I'm simply presenting facts as they exist from the movies.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
EU's not overriding anything, you're trying to throw that out just because it shoots down your opinion
Okay, two points here. First off, you say that EU's not overriding anything. That is correct. Second. I am throwing out your EU nonsense not because it 'shoots down my opinion', but because the movies (the higher form of canon) shoot down the EU.

Vious, you're pissing Lightsnake and I off (I don't like to speak for other people, but I think it's safe to assume I'm right). All the EU here is valid. It doesn't contradict the movies, like you pretend it does. It can be used, so calm down. If it says it in an approved source and doesn't contradict the movies, it's true. Understood?

Jollyjim be right in this case. This is an EU-subsection, after all. EU goes, unless contradicted by the movies. If it's not, you can't say it is.

Yay, I <3 Rex!


I don't mean it like that, so don't stain your skivvies or anything.

Damn. barker

Originally posted by Razielim
I want to see what people think. Who wins this?

Thank you Generic Hero. Finally a chance to say "Dooku tools the b!tch" without getting bumrushed with "Oh yeah then why he died to hiz dady!!!!11111111!1! ZOMG!!!!!1111111111!!!!!!!!11 Yur a noob!!!!!!!!!"

Oh yeah then why does he get killed at the hands of his dad!?




Just kidding. Anywho I think Luke could defeat Dooku. Luke managed to defeat Vader.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Oh yeah then why does he get killed at the hands of his dad!?




Just kidding. Anywho I think Luke could defeat Dooku. Luke managed to defeat Vader.

Who would get his ass shocked by Dooku...

Yes, vader, who stood head and shoulders above men like Jerec, the Hands, KADANN...you think noone'd used force lightning on Vader before?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yes, vader, who stood head and shoulders above men like Jerec, the Hands, KADANN...you think noone'd used force lightning on Vader before?

Sorry after ROTJ, I don't believe any of the non-canonical bullshit...

Which is too bad, considering in this debate it goes full well.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Which is too bad, considering in this debate it goes full well.

How? You come in here screaming about Luke's power. This is ROTJ Luke we are talking about( the only true Luke), he has little to no power in the force. His lightsaber skills are practically non-exsistant as well. As for Dooku vs. Old-Vader, Palaptine killed Vader with lightning and Dooku knows how to use lightning. Whats next? Vader has cortosis or some type of armor that absorbs energy attacks? Please...

Originally posted by Lord Tyranus
Sorry after ROTJ, I don't believe any of the non-canonical bullshit...

It doesn't matter what you believe. You can't sit there and call some EU non-canon and then take others as canon because it supports your cause.

Vader was stronger then Jerec who was a Jedi Knight during the Clone Wars but became a Dark Jedi and was trained a little by Emperor Palpatine. And yet Jerec wasn't Palpatine's apprentice because Palpatine wanted the stronger Jedi/Sith as his apprentice. He wanted Luke because Luke was stronger then Vader.

Originally posted by Lord Tyranus
How? You come in here screaming about Luke's power. This is ROTJ Luke we are talking about( the only true Luke), he has little to no power in the force. His lightsaber skills are practically non-exsistant as well. As for Dooku vs. Old-Vader, Palaptine killed Vader with lightning and Dooku knows how to use lightning. Whats next? Vader has cortosis or some type of armor that absorbs energy attacks? Please...

Hmm I guess Vader would sit there and take it. I mean it's not like we never seen someone like Mace or Obi-Wan block Force Lighting with their lightsabers.

Fact of the matter is in ROTJ Luke was stronger then Vader.

Little to no power? Same guy who practically moves ships one DAY hence? The guy Palpatine was frightened of?

And hm, let' think...was Vader defending himself or caring about his life? Is Palpatine the undisputed master of the dark side in the movies? Vader's faced people with force lightning before.

Here's something from the Return of the Jedi script between the duel against Luke and Vader:

Luke and Vader are engaged in a man-to-man duel of lightsabers
even more vicious then the battle on Bespin. But the young Jedi
has grown stronger in the interim, and now the advantage shifts
to him. Vader is forced back, losing his balance, and is knocked
down the stairs. Luke stands at the top of the stairs, ready to
attack.


Luke ignites his lightsaber and screams in anger, rushing at his
father with a frenzy we have not seen before. Sparks fly as Luke
and Vader fight in the cramped area. Luke's hatred forces Vader
to retreat out of the low area and across a bridge overlooking a
vast elevator shaft. Each stroke of Luke's sword drives his
father further toward defeat.

The Dark Lord is knocked to his knees, and as he raises his sword
to block another onslaught, Luke slashes Vader's right hand off
at the wrist, causing metal and electronic parts to fly from the
mechanical stump. Vader's sword clatters uselessly away, over the
edge of the platform and into the bottomless shaft below. Luke
moves over Vader and holds the blade of his sword to the Dark
Lord's throat. The Emperor watches with uncontrollable, pleased
agitation.


Luke is so terrible of a duelist that he was able to not only defeat Vader but force him on the defense their entire match. This is the same Luke who Force Choked and killed two guards in a second or two. The same Luke who lifted C3P0 up and moved him about. Same Luke that Palpatine called a huge threat to him and Vader. The same Luke who Palpatine wanted to replace Vader at his side.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Here's something from the Return of the Jedi script between the duel against Luke and Vader:

Luke and Vader are engaged in a man-to-man duel of lightsabers
even more vicious then the battle on Bespin. But the young Jedi
has grown stronger in the interim, and now the advantage shifts
to him. Vader is forced back, losing his balance, and is knocked
down the stairs. Luke stands at the top of the stairs, ready to
attack.


Luke ignites his lightsaber and screams in anger, rushing at his
father with a frenzy we have not seen before. Sparks fly as Luke
and Vader fight in the cramped area. Luke's hatred forces Vader
to retreat out of the low area and across a bridge overlooking a
vast elevator shaft. Each stroke of Luke's sword drives his
father further toward defeat.

The Dark Lord is knocked to his knees, and as he raises his sword
to block another onslaught, Luke slashes Vader's right hand off
at the wrist, causing metal and electronic parts to fly from the
mechanical stump. Vader's sword clatters uselessly away, over the
edge of the platform and into the bottomless shaft below. Luke
moves over Vader and holds the blade of his sword to the Dark
Lord's throat. The Emperor watches with uncontrollable, pleased
agitation.


Luke is so terrible of a duelist that he was able to not only defeat Vader but force him on the defense their entire match. This is the same Luke who Force Choked and killed two guards in a second or two. The same Luke who lifted C3P0 up and moved him about. Same Luke that Palpatine called a huge threat to him and Vader. The same Luke who Palpatine wanted to replace Vader at his side.

All of a sudden moving c-3p0 is a testament of power? Hahahaha. If so Dooku's dropping th balcony on Kenobi makes him able to beat the piss out of Ragnos or Revan mavbe even together...lol...

No, you said he had little to no power. Luke has shown to be able to lift C3P0 with ease, Force Choke two guards and kill them in a few second, and of course he has shown to be able to Force Pull.

Luke in ROTJ is stronger then Vader.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
No, you said he had little to no power. Luke has shown to be able to lift C3P0 with ease, Force Choke two guards and kill them in a few second, and of course he has shown to be able to Force Pull.

Luke in ROTJ is stronger then Vader.

The fact is that he outduelled someone who moves like the tin-man after he's been crying. Dooku is the master of a fluid and lethal style. That alone is enough to say that Dooku can take on the Barry Bonds of the SW Universe...

Originally posted by Lord Tyranus
The fact is that he outduelled someone who moves like the tin-man after he's been crying. Dooku is the master of a fluid and lethal style. That alone is enough to say that Dooku can take on the Barry Bonds of the SW Universe...

I'm sorry did you even see ESB and ROTJ? Vader doesn't move as slow as everyone makes him out to believe and during the Jedi Purge Vader killed many more Jedi then Dooku. Vader was a master of Form V and far greater in the Force then Dooku.

Vader engaged 3-5 Jedi at once and was WTF pwning them. The only reason he lost was because one of them managed to destroy his lightsaber.

Vader is greater then Dooku in all aspects.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
I'm sorry did you even see ESB and ROTJ? Vader doesn't move as slow as everyone makes him out to believe and during the Jedi Purge Vader killed many more Jedi then Dooku. Vader was a master of Form V and far greater in the Force then Dooku.

Vader engaged 3-5 Jedi at once and was WTF pwning them. The only reason he lost was because one of them managed to destroy his lightsaber.

Vader is greater then Dooku in all aspects.

When did he fight 3-5 Jedi? In one of those dumbass novels? Vader was human when he killed the Jedi in the temple. Vader uses choke. Dooku can use lightning, choke, grasp, and was seen in AOTC deflecting the lightning Yoda shot back.

In the Purge comic,and Vader has everything Dooku has except Lightning,but ANYONE can deflect that with a saber.

Originally posted by Lord Tyranus
When did he fight 3-5 Jedi? In one of those dumbass novels? Vader was human when he killed the Jedi in the temple. Vader uses choke. Dooku can use lightning, choke, grasp, and was seen in AOTC deflecting the lightning Yoda shot back.

Just look how slow Luke and Vader are actually fighting in Empire Strikes Back.

Vader has all that but lighting and he doesn't need lighting. And all the Jedi were not killed in Revenge of the Sith. Vader can deflect lighting with his lightsaber.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Just look how slow Luke and Vader are actually fighting in Empire Strikes Back.

Vader has all that but lighting and he doesn't need lighting. And all the Jedi were not killed in Revenge of the Sith. Vader can deflect lighting with his lightsaber.
Originally posted by DE Luke
In the Purge comic,and Vader has everything Dooku has except Lightning,but ANYONE can deflect that with a saber.

Okay then forget lightning. Dooku is still more than a challenge for Vader. I like Vader but Dooku has grace and agility. Vader has more power but less experience.

Less experience? They are close, to say the least, Vader very well have more, going on all the important missions for the Emperor and defeating the remaining Jedi and all. Vader has speed, and practices a form that relies off strength (something that overcomes Makashi quite effectively), so he doesn't show much agility, but he has it. In RODV a Jedi comments on how he has learned to move with the suit and had a new agility. The only time Vader was ever really clunky was immediately after he got the suit.

Anyway, this is about Luke, not Vader. Luke has much more speed than Dooku, much more agility, and could beat Vader in a saber fight. A victory against Dooku would be easier for Luke than a victory against Vader, especially when you consider their lightsaber fighting styles.

The title under your name suits you. 30 some years of actual experience compared to 80? That is like saying a rookie fencer would own a master fencer...

Anakin owned dooku, so good example. And Vader's also got agility

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I'm a Vader/Skywalker fanboy

Really?

This is what we call the last desperate attempt of one whose arguments collapse

Originally posted by Lightsnake
This is what we call the last desperate attempt of one whose arguments collapse

"We". All the other losers who waste time reading the novels and brushing up their huttesse for the prom? ROTJ Luke sucks. Dooku tools him.

Good logic.

Originally posted by Lord Tyranus
"We". All the other losers who waste time reading the novels and brushing up their huttesse for the prom? ROTJ Luke sucks. Dooku tools him.

Man you are a genius. I mean come on; reading a book! Who in their right mind would do that?

Face it your logic about exprience doesn't help considering Anakin owned Dooku.

This fight is not about Anakin or Vader. It is about Luke, more specifically ROTJ Luke. And at this point he has had very little training and more importantly no experience in lightsaber duelling. Im sorry, except for the time he fought Vader and promptly got his hand removed. Dooku however has had 80 years of training in both sides of the force, is a master of Makashi, THE DUELLING STYLE, and can go toe to toe with the likes of Yoda. Dooku has shown far more impressive uses of the force including pulling the roof down on Yoda and ripping a steel balcony out of its place onto Kenobi. He has also been shown to use force lightning as well as deflect it with his hands. When Luke encountered force lightning he was on the ground screaming in pain.

To Lukes credit he did manage to overwhelm Vader. But this is because he was angry and let his rage take over. What rage would he have against Dooku? None because they have never met. So Luke being able to overwhelm the Count with the darkside will not happen. Meaning all Luke can do is wildly swing his lightsaber and use very basic force powers. Dooku will have very little trouble winning. He will probably win this faster than he did against Kenobi.

And actually Luke has plenty of experience with the saber, with about three duels under his belt pre-ROTJ. And Luke was trained by the likes of Yoda. And Luke was blasted by Palpatine, and managed to resist for an instant...the guy who makes Dooku look like an ant? And Luke won't be throwing his saber away either.

Oh, and Dooku's an arrogant idiot who tends to tell EVERY LAST OPPONENT he faces to give into anger. Give me a break, Ox...Luke beat Dooku's far better

Originally posted by Rampant ox
This fight is not about Anakin or Vader. It is about Luke, more specifically ROTJ Luke. And at this point he has had very little training and more importantly no experience in lightsaber duelling. Im sorry, except for the time he fought Vader and promptly got his hand removed. Dooku however has had 80 years of training in both sides of the force, is a master of Makashi, THE DUELLING STYLE, and can go toe to toe with the likes of Yoda. Dooku has shown far more impressive uses of the force including pulling the roof down on Yoda and ripping a steel balcony out of its place onto Kenobi. He has also been shown to use force lightning as well as deflect it with his hands. When Luke encountered force lightning he was on the ground screaming in pain.

To Lukes credit he did manage to overwhelm Vader. But this is because he was angry and let his rage take over. What rage would he have against Dooku? None because they have never met. So Luke being able to overwhelm the Count with the darkside will not happen. Meaning all Luke can do is wildly swing his lightsaber and use very basic force powers. Dooku will have very little trouble winning. He will probably win this faster than he did against Kenobi.

Get over it. Luke would defeat Dooku. Dooku is a retard that likes to taunt his opponents and thus Luke would do what Anakin did...kill him.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And actually Luke has plenty of experience with the saber, with about three duels under his belt pre-ROTJ. And Luke was trained by the likes of Yoda. And Luke was blasted by Palpatine, and managed to resist for an instant...the guy who makes Dooku look like an ant? And Luke won't be throwing his saber away either.

Oh, and Dooku's an arrogant idiot who tends to tell EVERY LAST OPPONENT he faces to give into anger. Give me a break, Ox...Luke beat Dooku's far better

You forget that Dooku was also trained under Yoda. Now that I think of it he was also trained under Sids, the same Sids who had Luke on the floor screaming for his daddy.

You say that Luke had 3 duels under his belt by ROTJ!! HAHAHAHAHA LMAO!! Dooku has had probably hundreds of duels, with opponents far stronger Vader. Face it, Luke is nothing compared to Dookus skill.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
You forget that Dooku was also trained under Yoda. Now that I think of it he was also trained under Sids, the same Sids who had Luke on the floor screaming for his daddy.

You say that Luke had 3 duels under his belt by ROTJ!! HAHAHAHAHA LMAO!! Dooku has had probably hundreds of duels, with opponents far stronger Vader. Face it, Luke is nothing compared to Dookus skill.

All the Jedi were trained by Yoda as Younglings. Yoda trained Luke not to become a Padawan but to become a Jedi Knight. Luke was also trained by Obi-Wan and had Holocons to help him out.

And if Dooku faced opponents far stronger then Vader then Dooku wouldn't be alive. Vader is 80% as strong as Palpatine and Dooku isn't half of that.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
All the Jedi were trained by Yoda as Younglings. Yoda trained Luke not to become a Padawan but to become a Jedi Knight. Luke was also trained by Obi-Wan and had Holocons to help him out.

And if Dooku faced opponents far stronger then Vader then Dooku wouldn't be alive. Vader is 80% as strong as Palpatine and Dooku isn't half of that.

Yes Luke trained under Yoda. But not for very long. Certainly not for enough time to match Dooku. And his training with Kenobi is useless. He managed to deflect two blaster shots with Kenobis help. This is not going to help him against Dooku unless the Count starts shooting him , which I highly doubt.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Yes Luke trained under Yoda. But not for very long. Certainly not for enough time to match Dooku. And his training with Kenobi is useless. He managed to deflect two blaster shots with Kenobis help. This is not going to help him against Dooku unless the Count starts shooting him , which I highly doubt.

With Kenobi's help he managed to destroy the Death Star. With Kenobi's help he went to find Master Yoda. And Yoda said Luke was ready to become a Jedi Knight.

All he had to do was defeat Vader which he did. Not only defeat Vader but force him on the defense the entire fight. Luke would defeat Dooku. You saw he can't fight so I suggest you go watch Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
With Kenobi's help he managed to destroy the Death Star. With Kenobi's help he went to find Master Yoda. And Yoda said Luke was ready to become a Jedi Knight.

Kenobi didnt train Luke in these situations, he merely told him what to do. Not particularly hard to do. And so what if Yoda said that Luke was a jedi knight. Dooku was a jedi master and a sith lord. And Dooku said that he was more powerful than any jedi. That doesnt make it so.



Vader was emotionally turmoiled with having to fight his son. Dooku would not have this turmoil. Vader was forced on the defencive because of lukes rage. Again Luke has nothing to be raged about when fighting the Count. Thus not being able to push Dooku on the defencive.

Here's the script between Luke and Vader: ROTJ

Luke and Vader are engaged in a man-to-man duel of lightsabers
even more vicious then the battle on Bespin. But the young Jedi
has grown stronger in the interim, and now the advantage shifts
to him. Vader is forced back, losing his balance, and is knocked
down the stairs. Luke stands at the top of the stairs, ready to
attack.


Luke ignites his lightsaber and screams in anger, rushing at his
father with a frenzy we have not seen before. Sparks fly as Luke
and Vader fight in the cramped area. Luke's hatred forces Vader
to retreat out of the low area and across a bridge overlooking a
vast elevator shaft. Each stroke of Luke's sword drives his
father further toward defeat.

The Dark Lord is knocked to his knees, and as he raises his sword
to block another onslaught, Luke slashes Vader's right hand off
at the wrist, causing metal and electronic parts to fly from the
mechanical stump. Vader's sword clatters uselessly away, over the
edge of the platform and into the bottomless shaft below. Luke
moves over Vader and holds the blade of his sword to the Dark
Lord's throat. The Emperor watches with uncontrollable, pleased
agitation.



now the advantage shifts
to him. Vader is forced back; Luke now has the advantage and forced Vader back. And Vader was willing to kill Luke or else he wouldn't have threw his lightsaber at him or he wouldn't have watched Luke suffer at the hands of Palpatine.

And about Dooku's lighting: Yoda didn't struggle at all to block it neither did Obi-Wan. Mace and Yoda struggled to hold back Palpatine's.

I dont see how any of that is relevant. This is Dooku vs Luke. Not Luke vs Vader. Like I said before the reason for Luke forcing Vader on the defencive is his rage. And also Vader being emotionally turmoiled over having to fight his son. Neither of these factors would apply in a fight between Dooku and Luke.

Lord Tyranus, don't edit quotes.

...

You Dooku fanboy.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
I dont see how any of that is relevant. This is Dooku vs Luke. Not Luke vs Vader. Like I said before the reason for Luke forcing Vader on the defencive is his rage. And also Vader being emotionally turmoiled over having to fight his son. Neither of these factors would apply in a fight between Dooku and Luke.

Considering Vader is master of Form V which is the ideal form against a Form II user and Luke used Form V that means Luke is very skilled with Form V.

Dooku wouldn't be able to resist taunting Luke, and provoking him. A normal ROTJ Luke would be too much for Dooku to handle, but an enraged Luke would be just overwhelming.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest Considering Vader is master of Form V which is the ideal form against a Form II user and Luke used Form V that means Luke is very skilled with Form V.

But Luke is not a master of Form V by ROTJ. We can easily tell this by his wild, clumsy swings. Dooku however is an undisputed master of Form II, the duelling form.



Maybe. But the point is how will Dooku be able to taunt Luke. He knows absolutely nothing about him. Nor, does Luke know anything about Dooku. So there is no reason for Luke to get angry. And even if he was I doubt he would be able to break the Counts defences.

Same way he did Anakin "I sense great fear in you, you have hate, you have anger but you don't use them."

It would be like Vader taunting Luke.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Same way he did Anakin "I sense great fear in you, you have hate, you have anger but you don't use them."

It would be like Vader taunting Luke.

Yes but if Dooku said that there would be no reason for Luke to get angry. But when he said it to Anakin it must have hit a nerve. Because Anakin was getting lectured by the guy who chopped his arm off. And Vader taunting Luke is different. There is an emotional side to it which wouldnt be there with Dooku.

Luke's swings in ROTJ are in no way clumsier than anything Maul does. Luke's mastered Form V by ROTJ

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Luke's swings in ROTJ are in no way clumsier than anything Maul does. Luke's mastered Form V by ROTJ

Proof. Or is this just your opinion?

Yay, Lightsnake is back!


Wait, were you gone?

Anyway, he's right.

Sure, ROTJ novelization that Luke had mastered the saber in a way to compete with Vader himself?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Sure, ROTJ novelization that Luke had mastered the saber in a way to compete with Vader himself?

I dont see how luke could have mastered the form when he has had a grand total of 3 fights. And besides mastering it is one thing, applying it to a real fight is quite another.

Instinctive mastery. And yeah, y'know, he DID apply it to a real fight...several in fact

Yeah, Luke didn't apply it at all, hahaha.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Instinctive mastery. And yeah, y'know, he DID apply it to a real fight...several in fact

Instinctive mastery. What a load of bullshit. You simply dont become a master in three fights. Nor do you become one with the small amount of training Luke had. Dooku is a master, 2nd best in the jedi order, is a master of the lightsaber vs lightsaber form and is leagues above Luke in terms of the force. Luke doesnt stand a chance.

Except Luke did and the evidence that he did is on screen and in print. and et something through your skull. Luke beat Vader and was able to fight him equally and Vader is Dooku's far better

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Except Luke did and the evidence that he did is on screen and in print. and et something through your skull. Luke beat Vader and was able to fight him equally and Vader is Dooku's far better

Just because Luke is a master doesnt put him on the level of the Count. Kenobi ws a master and look what happened to him...

Dooku has more experience in duelling, a greater control of the force and greater control of a lightsaber. Because Luke bet Vader means little. it is an A<B<C argument. And there were many factors influencing their fight. these factors wouldnt apply with Dooku because they have never met. So the battle will come down to skill and Dooku has far more skill thean Luke.

Vader had all of those, too, look what happened to him. And the first times Anakin fought Vader in Splinter of the Mind's Eye, Luke won...

And nope, Dooku has a lot less skill than the Force's grandson. What part of "Luke beat Dooku's better' is hard to realize?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Vader had all of those, too, look what happened to him.

The difference being he was fighting his son. Meaning he was emotionally turmoiled. This wont apply if Dooku was fighting.



That makes no sense.



Not in ROTJ.



The fact that it is an A<B<C argument. This would make your logic invalid.

The A>B>C so A>C doesn't always work , but in this case, it shows that Luke has enough skills to be placed above Dooku.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
The A>B>C so A>C doesn't always work , but in this case, it shows that Luke has enough skills to be placed above Dooku.

You cant just choose when to use an A<B<C argument. The fact is they are invalid and you cant use them to help in an argument.

Except Vader was fighting seriously, even moreso at the emd...and you need to realize if Luke is on par with a man like Vader, he can CERTAINLY fight Dooku evenly

.....what is this forum turning into..

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Except Vader was fighting seriously, even moreso at the emd...and you need to realize if Luke is on par with a man like Vader, he can CERTAINLY fight Dooku evenly

No he couldnt. There is a vast difference between Dookus style and Vaders style. Vaders is a more head on physical style whereas Dookus blocks and parrys. So one wild swing from Luke and it is just a simple case of Dooku stepping to the side and killing Luke. You need to realise that Luke has never fought a Makashi practicioner before. He has no idea how to fight Dooku and find his weaknesses. And then there is Dooku whose style counters all others. Face it, Luke just doesnt have the experience or skill needed to dfeat Dooku.

Originally posted by Captain REX
Lord Tyranus, don't edit quotes.

...

You Dooku fanboy.

Funny Captain Obvious....

Dude, you should post that picture of Dooku in your sig at like a pop-eyes joint. He looks so f8ckig hungry.

Wierd ass pciture. Funny though.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Instinctive mastery. And yeah, y'know, he DID apply it to a real fight...several in fact

As I tried to explain before, but you ignored:
Luke was not called a Master in any of the original movies. The novelizations might say he mastered the use of something, but they were written when the term applied to having learned a skill. You have (I assume) mastered riding a bicycle. That doesn't mean you're a Master of The Bike, which someone like Matt Hoffman is. The English language has moved on in the thirty years since the movies came out. If you were to transport someone from the 60s to Present day LA, there would be any number of expressions that they would not understand, or thought had a different meaning.
Ever seen 51st State? Where Robbie Carlyle offers Sam a cigarette by saying 'Eff Aye Gee' (censor won't allow the written word)? In the UK, that is a commonly used term for cigarettes, it is not just a way of calling someone a homosexual, like it is in America. Do you see the point I'm trying to illustrate? The phrase 'had mastered' just meant Luke had learned to do something. It didn't make him a Master of that weapon.


Originally posted by Lightsnake
Except Luke did and the evidence that he did is on screen and in print.
The only evidence on screen (which overrules the printed evidence) is that Luke swung his lightsaber around like a baseball bat. In the last part of his duel against Vader, he hit the pipes more than Vader's blade. That does not qualify someone as having 'instinctive mastery' of anything. It just shows them to be clumsy. Clumsy against someone like Count Dooku would be fatal. Look how easily he took down Obi-Wan (who was anything but clumsy) Look how easily he cut off Anakin's arm during their duel (again, someone who was anything but clumsy)
Where onscreen do you see Luke use his saber with as much skill as Anakin or Obi-Wan? All you see, is him swinging it like a blindwoodsman, in the hopes if hitting something.

Take the comments made by Alan Quatermain to Agent Tom Sawyer in League of Extraordinary Gentlemen as a similar view:
"American style shooting... Fire lots of times and hope you hit something.
"If you can't do it with one shot, don't do it at all"
The same principle (if you can't do it easily, don't do it at all) applies to fencing as well as shooting.

Semantics with nothing to back you up, Vious. And I didn't see Luke 'swinging wildly hoping to hit something'. he was crushing Vader's defenses and in fact? Fighting rather well.

And Rampant, maybe you forgot, but Dooku is weak against form V, which Luke mastered

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Semantics with nothing to back you up, Vious. And I didn't see Luke 'swinging wildly hoping to hit something'. he was crushing Vader's defenses and in fact? Fighting rather well.

And Rampant, maybe you forgot, but Dooku is weak against form V, which Luke mastered

Lightsnake says it all