DE Sidious Vs Dooku and Mace

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DE Luke
Who wins?

Apollo5Cloud
Probably Dooku and Mace.

Lightsnake
Like hell, Palpatine blinks and they die hard

Apollo5Cloud
Sure thing thumb up

Captain REX
Sids. He pwns with teh Force. no expression

darthsith19
Depends, if the duo can engage Sidous in lightsaber combat they could probably take him, but if he manages to launch a Force Storm at them they're screwed.

Apollo5Cloud
Isn't the force storm a huge scale attack? I doubt he would be able to pull one of without harming himself.

Lightsnake
In saber combat, Sidious in DE absolutely destroys them. He doesn't even need a force storm, one of the several million other dark side attacks will suffice

Apollo5Cloud
Several million other dark side attacks?

Captain REX
An exaggeration, to be sure.

Lightsnake
Well, he's got just about every single dark side technique and others he's invented himself, so I'd say that's quite the arsenal

Apollo5Cloud
WTF? Every single dark side technique? Sure thing.

Lightsnake
Yep, factually stated in the Dark Empire sourcebook

Admiral Akbar
I dont think Sidious could take these two in a lightsaber fight. After all he lost to Luke in a saber duel and Mace is a much better saber duelist than DE luke. Dooku also possibly.

Lightsnake
DE Luke is able to deflect walkers with a saber alone and fight faster than the eye can see, tearing apart one end of the room to the other in seconds and channel the entirety of the lightside?

Luke by DE is easily better than ANY PT Jedi. Anyone able to contend whatsoever with Palpatine in his younger body with all his powers?

And Palpatine could simply raise his hands and make fists...fight over

Sin Harvest
Palpatine WTF pwns them. This isn't even a challenge. He brings in a Force Storm and watches them die.

jollyjim311
He beats Dooku with Mace... or vice versa.

Admiral Akbar
Originally posted by Lightsnake
DE Luke is able to deflect walkers with a saber alone and fight faster than the eye can see, tearing apart one end of the room to the other in seconds and channel the entirety of the lightside?

Luke by DE is easily better than ANY PT Jedi. Anyone able to contend whatsoever with Palpatine in his younger body with all his powers?

And Palpatine could simply raise his hands and make fists...fight over

Fight faster than the eye can see huh? I heard similar exaggerations in Shatterpoint. You dont see mace fighting like that in the movies do you?

Lightsnake
You don't see Palpatine in a sixteen year old body post twenty something years from ROTJ with all the powers flowing through him in the darkside, do you?

Escape81
Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
I dont think Sidious could take these two in a lightsaber fight. After all he lost to Luke in a saber duel and Mace is a much better saber duelist than DE luke. Dooku also possibly.

a) He's superior to either Dooku or Mace in a lightsaber fight by the time of Dark Empire. Perhaps not both, but easily either one of them.

b) He isn't restricted to just lightsaber fighting. His Force powers are leagues above either one of them. Force Storms can be controlled in size, and his Force Lightning mortally wounded two strong Jedi in short bursts.

He pwns these two.

Escape81
Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
I dont think Sidious could take these two in a lightsaber fight. After all he lost to Luke in a saber duel and Mace is a much better saber duelist than DE luke. Dooku also possibly.

Also if Mace were a "much better saber duelist" than DE Luke (which I highly doubt), then Dooku would definately be as well. He and Mace are roughly on the same skill level.

Also - I'm inclined to think that Leia had something to do with their second lightsaber fight. Because the first one was only hours earlier, and Palpatine pwned Luke. Though this isn't concrete, I don't believe Luke increased in ability that much.

Admiral Akbar
And what could leia possibly do?

Mace is still the only jedi who perfected a technique that Luke has never heard of. and DE is how many years after ROTJ? How could Luke become a lightsaber prodigy-better fighter than Mace when only a few years ago he just got to know how to use a lightsaber, let alone have very little time to master his style. Dooku's excellent mastery of the force is what balances the skill level between him and Mace. IMO Mace is a far more skilled saber duelist.

Escape81
Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
And what could leia possibly do?

Mace is still the only jedi who perfected a technique that Luke has never heard of. and DE is how many years after ROTJ? How could Luke become a lightsaber prodigy-better fighter than Mace when only a few years ago he just got to know how to use a lightsaber, let alone have very little time to master his style. Dooku's excellent mastery of the force is what balances the skill level between him and Mace. IMO Mace is a far more skilled saber duelist.

Leia was able to apply her own innate power - and her son's innate power - to augment Luke's abilities where they could temporarily cut Palpatine off from the Force. Why not in a saber duel?

Look at the comic yourself on Swcomics.com. On the panel, it shows Palpatine beginning to best Luke - and then it highlights Leia's form behind Palpatine, and WHAM! Palpatine's on his ass, minus a hand.

DE is 11 years after ANH.

Escape81
a) He's superior to either Dooku or Mace in a lightsaber fight by the time of Dark Empire. Perhaps not both, but easily either one of them.

b) He isn't restricted to just lightsaber fighting. His Force powers are leagues above either one of them. Force Storms can be controlled in size, and his Force Lightning mortally wounded two strong Jedi in short bursts.

He pwns these two.

Escape81
Ackbar, did you respond and I not see it?

Admiral Akbar
Sry, I dont go on a lot nowadays. OK...

a.) OK...I never said individually they could beat him, but the combined power of Vaapad and Makashi is frightning.

b.) Why do people always assume Sidious is going to start the fight with a force storm? I could say Dooku would shock him to death before he could muster the thing. His force storm is a last resort, it was against Luke. Last time I checked force lightning was easily absorbed by a lightsaber.

Pwns...no, but they have the possibility of overcoming him. note- "overcome"

stone7
Lol i take it u didn't see revenge of the sith. Mace wuld destroy sidous with 1 hand behind his back. sidios might kill dooku in that fight only if he had his extreme rage.

Escape81
Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
Sry, I dont go on a lot nowadays. OK...

a.) OK...I never said individually they could beat him, but the combined power of Vaapad and Makashi is frightning.

b.) Why do people always assume Sidious is going to start the fight with a force storm? I could say Dooku would shock him to death before he could muster the thing. His force storm is a last resort, it was against Luke. Last time I checked force lightning was easily absorbed by a lightsaber.

Pwns...no, but they have the possibility of overcoming him. note- "overcome"

a.) Perhaps.

b.) Okay, that's poor logic. DE Palpatine's lightning can mortally wound it's victim with a single blast. Dooku can, in no way, shape, or form, hope to compete with that. Palpatine's Force powers are (please note) leagues above these two.

So, imagine his considerable lightsaber abilities combined with his vastly superior Force powers.

How can they hope to beat him?

Escape81
Originally posted by stone7
Lol i take it u didn't see revenge of the sith. Mace wuld destroy sidous with 1 hand behind his back. sidios might kill dooku in that fight only if he had his extreme rage.

a.) This isn't RotS. This is Dark Empire.

b.) Mace has a good chance of beating Sidious, but I don't recall Sidious actively using his superior Force powers until he was in a position where they'd do him no good. Imagine if he fought against Mace like he did against Yoda.

c.) Sidious would defeat his apprentice. That'd be Dooku.

Admiral Akbar
Originally posted by Escape81
a.) Perhaps.

b.) Okay, that's poor logic. DE Palpatine's lightning can mortally wound it's victim with a single blast. Dooku can, in no way, shape, or form, hope to compete with that. Palpatine's Force powers are (please note) leagues above these two.

So, imagine his considerable lightsaber abilities combined with his vastly superior Force powers.

How can they hope to beat him?


b.) It could mortally wound if they have their lightsaber attached to their waist, but lightsabers absorb shock...

Easy. Get in close and take care of buissness. Considerable dueling is individual. Both together are "superior."

Escape81
Well, no offense, lol, but how do you know that would happen? Sidious is stronger and quicker than them both. What if he isolates one (if he gets one isolated - he'd slaughter them), and then pwns the other?

You're right. There's a chance they'd win. But that is only if they quickly close the ground and kill him. They are inferior than he is in lightsaber combat and they aren't even in the same ballpark in Force powers.

In a prolonged duel, he'd kill them.

Consider. In RotS, Yoda (more powerful than Dooku and Mace, and much quicker) was unable to "get in close" and pwn Sidious (and he's vastly inferior to DE Sidious).

Which leads me to believe that Sidious would likely crush them.

Escape81
Also, there's no way in hell these two could repel a Force Storm. Nah. Mace and Dooku die.

Lightsnake
Did anyone miss that in DE Sidious makes armed fighters' sabers explode with a GESTURE? And he knows pretty much every darkside and lightside technique

And Luke's a far better saber master than Mace could hope to be by DE.

jollyjim311
He kills them with lightning. Mace could barely hold off Sidious' short burst of lightning from ROTS when Sidious could have kept going. How can they take it from DE Sidious?

By the way, Ackbar, Sidious' lightning isn't "Easily blocked with a saber."

Lightsnake
Especially not DE Sidious, who was moving too fast for the eye to perceive and who was tearing apart the throne room in his duel with Luke when they were fighting from one side to the other

Admiral Akbar
Originally posted by Escape81
Well, no offense, lol, but how do you know that would happen? Sidious is stronger and quicker than them both. What if he isolates one (if he gets one isolated - he'd slaughter them), and then pwns the other?

You're right. There's a chance they'd win. But that is only if they quickly close the ground and kill him. They are inferior than he is in lightsaber combat and they aren't even in the same ballpark in Force powers.

In a prolonged duel, he'd kill them.

Consider. In RotS, Yoda (more powerful than Dooku and Mace, and much quicker) was unable to "get in close" and pwn Sidious (and he's vastly inferior to DE Sidious).

Which leads me to believe that Sidious would likely crush them.

In the novel, Yoda successfully disarmed Sidious. And in the movie we see him run around half the fight without a saber in his hands, so Yoda was able to get in close.

Lightsnake
And Yoda's only the best Jedi duelist ever...this is a Sidious with many more years of training and knowledge under his best, in a young, healthy body with the Dark Side completely flowing through him

darthsith19
Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
Fight faster than the eye can see huh? I heard similar exaggerations in Shatterpoint. You dont see mace fighting like that in the movies do you?
Good point. It said Mace was moving his arms so fast that you couldn't see them but he didn't move than fast in the movies so if DE Sidious was in a movie I doubt he'd move as fast as the book says he does, either. But still, Sidious has got all those Force Powers so the duo's dead.

darthsith19
Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
Fight faster than the eye can see huh? I heard similar exaggerations in Shatterpoint. You dont see mace fighting like that in the movies do you?
Good point. It said Mace was moving his arms so fast that you couldn't see them but he didn't move than fast in the movies so if DE Sidious was in a movie I doubt he'd move as fast as the book says he does, either. But still, Sidious has got all those Force Powers so the duo's dead.

Lightsnake
Except Sidious as of De isn't in a movie so it's a moot point

kamikz
No, actually there is a point in it.
Obi-Wan (who is a trained jedi master) said that Kit Fisto was like a tornado, moving awefully fast, so Obi barley could see it. (LOE).
Shatterpoint says that if Kar Vastor was fast as lightning, Mace was invisible.

It could be an exaguration..... (Note I said COULD).

Lightsnake
The two are moving so fast and furiously, they're tearing the throne room apart in moments from one end to the other

kamikz
Mace and Kar unarmed created shockwaves around them, Mace punching Kar with several punches in under one second.

Escape81
Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
In the novel, Yoda successfully disarmed Sidious. And in the movie we see him run around half the fight without a saber in his hands, so Yoda was able to get in close.

You're missing the point. Yoda didn't disarm Sidious with laughable ease. They fought for a while, and even when Yoda disarmed him - he was unable to kill Sidious.

Lightsnake
Luke and Sidious were giving off so much power, it was reverberating throughout the galaxy

kamikz
That doesn't talk for their speed does it? I'm not arguing their power clashing together, but their speed could be an exaggeration. Wasn't it Leia that said/thought this when she fought them (that they were so fast), cause many jedi have seen people and said similar things (speed wise that is).

It is of course hard to determin this because Luke and Sidious is so ridicilousley above Mace and Kit in power, but seeing as this has been stated before on other people you can't help but wonder....

Admiral Akbar
Originally posted by Escape81
You're missing the point. Yoda didn't disarm Sidious with laughable ease. They fought for a while, and even when Yoda disarmed him - he was unable to kill Sidious.

So...how long did the lightsaber duel last? Not as short as the duel between Mace and Sidious. Mace alone in a 1v1 was able to disarm Sidious very quickly. He and Dooku could as a duo possibly do the same to DE. But anyway... Yoda beat him in lightsaber combat as did Mace, so Sidious is not a very good duelist. He instead depends on his witts and tactics to make up for his poor dueling ability. I believe that if MAce and Dooku force a lightsaber fight, which might very well happen they have a 76% chance of winning.

Admiral Akbar
Originally posted by kamikz
That doesn't talk for their speed does it? I'm not arguing their power clashing together, but their speed could be an exaggeration. Wasn't it Leia that said/thought this when she fought them (that they were so fast), cause many jedi have seen people and said similar things (speed wise that is).

It is of course hard to determin this because Luke and Sidious is so ridicilousley above Mace and Kit in power, but seeing as this has been stated before on other people you can't help but wonder....

They fill EU with hyperboles to make the story more intense and interesting.

Lightsnake
Yeah, yeah, hyperbole is just a way to say you don't have a counter and thus try to discredit the source. the narraration described them as moving all over the room and tearing it apart in seconds. This is, for the final time, DE Sidious and he's grown more powerful in every freaking respect many times over.

I'm tired of this 'Sidious isn't a good duelist' bull, he was described as an incredible fighter, killed three of the best Jedi duelists ever and is only beaten by the two best fighters the galaxy had ever seen up to that point. and Sidious is only said to be possibly one of the best duelists who ever lived, but, why look at evidence.

Admiral Akbar
Other narrators described other Jedi and Sith the same way. Say, how can you attack someone that moves so fast he's invisible, Or attack someone that fights and moves like a tornado.

Yes, of course he beat 3 jedi that just stood there and did nothing at all. Incredible! Of course he is one of the best when you compare him to Kit fisto or any other "weak" jedi.

kamikz
I don't think of Sidious as a crappy duelist, hell no, vice versa. Heck I even belive that he faked against Mace Windu. (Possibly in the sword battle, but definently in the force using....)And I have never mentioned him being a crappy one either, I just said that the "moving so fast that he is barley visible" could possibly, and I say possibly be hyperbole.

Admiral Akbar
No, Wikipedia, the star wars databank and other sources say Mace and Vaapad were able to defeat Sidious in a duel. Again leading back to "you cant fake being disarmed."

kamikz
You can if you can predict what's going to happen. But Mace is probably the better duelist, but Sidious clearly faked the force power part. But I am in no mood to discuss this now, so don't continue today.

Admiral Akbar
jump

Yes he did fake the force part, I agree with that. You cant argue against it.

Escape81
Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
No, Wikipedia, the star wars databank and other sources say Mace and Vaapad were able to defeat Sidious in a duel. Again leading back to "you cant fake being disarmed."

I don't think you want to rely on the Databank for information, because Yoda's biography states that "The Emperor was too powerful for Yoda to defeat".

Whether you like to accept it or not, Yoda - in no way, shape, or form - outclasses (your words) Palpatine. If he did, then he would have defeated Palpatine, regardless of the supposed "tactical advantage".

Like I told you. A perfect example of Palpatine's abilities is on the Chancellor's podium. Yoda forced Palpatine off the center position, and then Palpatine did the same thing. If Palpatine were leagues beneath him, the fight would have been over in less than 10 seconds.

It didn't. Quit acting ignorant.

Admiral Akbar
Thats only one source. Other sources on Vaapad say the same thing, so that approves it. Dont need to rely on one source.

Anakin outclassed Dooku, can he do it more than once? Would he be successful a second time around?

When did I ever say he was leagues beneath Yoda, I said yoda was a better duelist and possibly a better force user. Did the lightsaber fight not last a few minutes? In both Yoda vs Sidious and Mace vs Sidious.

I does, try searching Vaapad.

Lightsnake
Hey, Akbar, did you miss how the ROTS novelization calls Kit, Agen and Saesee three of the best Jedi duelists the order ever produced?

And once again: Any proof the other Jedi were moving that fast? flying over Palpatine's throne room, tearing it to ribbons in moments seems adequate proof they were that fast

Escape81
You said this before, Admiral Ackbar. 12 days ago.



I am assuming that you still operate under the same assumption. The point is - it didn't work for Yoda, or Mace before.

Now, to take the phrase "far better in every aspect", Sidious (by DE) is "far better in every aspect than Mace and Dooku". His Force Storms WTFpwns them. His Force powers (otherwise) are still football leagues ahead of these two, and his saber skills are better as well.

He crushes these two.

kamikz
Didn't GL himself say that Kit and the others dying so quick wasn't to show that they suck, but to show how powerful Sidious is?

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