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I was born after the original star wars movies came out and after growing up in the day and age of modern Hollywoo the original movies seem to be much worse than eps. 1,2, and 3. Please explain to me why 4,5, and 6 are so much better. Besides Hayden Christianson.

I don't know maybe because they were the very first ones.

Episode 5 alone is better than the first three combined.

In the originals the ships were beaten up, unlike all the Naboo ships. Space travel wasn't done all whilly-nilly, it was a pain to get around Tatooine, never mind to Alderann.
It is much easier to relate to a young man who needs adventure but is stuck at home and eventually becomes a great hero than being a Jedi from birth or a very young age.
The rebels were the underdogs, they didn't have thousands of Jedis and clones to back them up.
The heroes knew that war didn't make one great, and laying down your weapon was better than rushing off and killing, unlike in the PT.
It actually had surprises in it.
It wasn't over the top.
The force was very mystical, not some scientific mumbo-jumbo.
Random characters weren't tied into the story, with the exception of the family bonds between Luke, Leia, and Vader. Boba wasn't related back then. Jabba was just a crime lord with no other relevance. Chewbacca was just a cool wookiee co-pilot.
Acting (Specifically Han, but the acting for other characters was just leauges above the PT).
The Catina scene.

Also much more, but I'll leave it to the rest of the people here.

The lightsaber duels were better

I have to say what made the OT better was the fact you had no clue what was going to happen next. With the PT you already knew that Anakin was going to become Darth Vader and the Republic would turn into the Empire.

Not to mention then the Force was so strange and unknown you could only guess what it was.

Well i think the direction is better in the Original Trilogy and the acting, and personally i dont think that Mark Hamill is better than Hayden Christensen.

Lucas Directed Star Wars - A New Hope (He Got Lucky On That One)
Kershner Directed Empire Strikes Back (Fantastic Movie and Surpassed the Original)
Marquand Directed Return Of The Jedi, which wasn't great to be honest

The Phantom Menace felt like Return Of The Jedi in places and i cant think of anything Specific but i feel like am watching that kinda style of ROTJ

Attack Of The Clones was far better than The Phantom Menace and had a different feel than Phantom Menace, which was enjoyable

Revenge Of The Sith was brilliant and i feel that the second half of the movie is in the style of The Empire Strikes Back

So for me i think 3/4/5 are the better 3 of the 6 movies

I dont really think that i could say which trilogy i prefer,

I really do love them both

AOTC had such a lame CGI- "Blow it up!" feel to it. Special effects should be used to tell a story, not to be the actual story. I mean, I realize it was about the beginning of the clone wars, but it was too much action and not enough storyline.

I wouldn't call RotS brilliant, a lot of fighting scenes and death after each other was exciting but not a true masterpiece of writing.

Originally posted by Darth Grathius
I was born after the original star wars movies came out and after growing up in the day and age of modern Hollywoo the original movies seem to be much worse than eps. 1,2, and 3. Please explain to me why 4,5, and 6 are so much better. Besides Hayden Christianson.

The concept was new then, the special effects were a big thing then, the stories are better especially ESB, its also Nostalgic for someone like me who saw them first time round, if i had been born after they came out my view on it might be totally different.

I was born after they were released, but I watched them when I was 5 and was completely ensnared.

The originals told the most important story, and had all of Lucas's best bits. Anything after that was superflous junk and special effects he couldn't do back in the day. The important, and best stuff, made it into the originals. Simple as that.

Originally posted by aj_vader

So for me i think 3/4/5 are the better 3 of the 6 movies

I dont really think that i could say which trilogy i prefer,

I really do love them both

Agreed!

Those three there form the best trilogy!

The other three films could just as easily be two, with TPM and Clones being a single flick.

I too grew up after the original releases, (born in 1983) but watched them as a kid religiously, and saw the SE's in theatres.

I then saw the PT at 16, 19, and 22.

I liked them all too, so stick it if you didn't.

They took me where I wanted to go, and showed me what I wanted to see.

I understood from the beginning (in a very basic way, of course) what those films would be about, (the rise of vader/Empire and the fall of Anakin/Republic) and I wasn't dissapointed.


To the thread starter, its not really fair to say that the new films are "better" than the OT, they were just made differently.


I personally prefer the PT, but just barely.

I love all six.

THE PT IS BETTER BECAUSE OF COUNT DOOKU!!!!!!

awww, shit.

hang

Originally posted by Darth Grathius
Please explain to me why 4,5, and 6 are so much better.

Prolly should have clarified that to say they are so much better to YOU. I was 16 when ANH came out and to me the OT is by far better than the PT. Its just a matter of taste.

Originally posted by Red Superfly
The originals told the most important story, and had all of Lucas's best bits. Anything after that was superflous junk and special effects he couldn't do back in the day. The important, and best stuff, made it into the originals. Simple as that.
So true. Almost nothing in AOTC is important...

yeah i really like the first ones too. i think they are better because ( as most of you have said) special effects dont make a great movie. it has to do with the plot and also because you dont know what is going to happen. even though the first three are better i still like the other ones too.

Originally posted by Blue_Hefner
The lightsaber duels were better

I say the Luke vs Vader in EP VI was the best dual and still is.

Also,
EP VI is my fav. then EP III, then EP V

The OT had more "soul" to it. It sounded natural, the dialogue flowed with more ease and grace, and charm that the PT. The special effects, while cool and nifty, take away from the homely feeling most original SW fans grew up with. The battered ships and grime and dirt looks normal, it makes it seem more believable. When I first saw TPM, the first words that came to mind concerning the film were "scripted, forced, wooden, sterile." Same AOTC and ROTS. The OT isn't like that.

Well, Episodes I-III aren't bad, they are good movies, just, when you try to compare them with the originals. They fall short. Very short. That's why they have a bad reputation.

Uh, no. The prequels have a fine reputation. They were box office champs, enjoyed mostly good-to-excellent reviews, and are the most successful prequels in the history of film. And the prequels are an emotional set of films, i.e. there is quite a bit more tragedy and loss, as well as joy.

But I don't know why some people insist on comparing them as if they were in some celebrity death match or something.

I disagree. IMO the status of the originals has been hindered greatly just by the existance of the Prequel Trilogy.

Originally posted by Darth Grathius
I was born after the original star wars movies came out and after growing up in the day and age of modern Hollywoo the original movies seem to be much worse than eps. 1,2, and 3. Please explain to me why 4,5, and 6 are so much better. Besides Hayden Christianson.

First the origionals were episodes 4,5, and 6. and the Prequils were 1,2, 3. secondly I also grew up AFTER the OT but I like them beter than the PT because:

1. The acting was beter
2. The force, and the Future was a mystery.
3. It was more of a war.
4. EP1. was an invasion of one planet. 2 was a love story between Anakin and Padme'. 3 was the only good one of the PT.
5. it had the Jedi order begining again through Luke.
6. Ewan McGregor was a good Obi-wan but he can't touch Alec Guinness.
7. Natalie Portman was a HORRIBBLE Padme'
8. George Lucas looked more at plot and story than which way the droid turned in the OT.
9. The PT became Hollywood-ized.
10. The OT Movies are Timeless classics.
11. GL Hates Star Wars Now, He's trying so hard to end the pain of nerdy fan boys sending leters asking idiotic questions like "What's Luke's Shoe size?"

7. Natalie Portman was a HORRIBBLE Padme'

She was good in Episode I. It seems she can't do romance and stuff like that.

The OT had the plot, acting, and writing.
The PT had super graphics, animation, and explosions.
You do not make a movie with graphics (which is why 90% of current movies suck) It's the writing and Plot.
Lucas had to tie side characters into it, disregarding EU that he considered Canon for about 20 years(probably less, not sure when first EU came out) He tried to add childish comedy (Jarjar for example)
I could go on and on about this but...
OT scores 10/10
Pt scores 3/10 (The 3 is for Lightsaber Fights and Battle Sequences =P)

Because of the Success of the ORIGNALS you can slap the name Star Wars on ANYTHING and it will sell

Originally posted by chinabing
I love all six.

Way to go
The OT is my childhood and therefore it brings back sweet memories, the PT on the other hand is my youth. No comment here (yet).

I think the PT is better. The OT may have a more solid storyline, but the PT is more fun to watch. Yeah they used CGI. Who cares. The OT used models.

The writing isn't bad either in my opinion, it's just movie. It's made for entertainment, not life like accuracy. People that are in love don't speak to each other in polished hollywood like dialogue, so the stuff between Anakin and Padme is fine to me. People don't have to pick over every small thing that might be wrong with it. Sometimes the way the lines are delivered can make the writing seem bad.

SW fans can be divided into two categories: the OT generation, including myself and most members of this forum, and the PT generation, which has its potential in today's kids. I'm not saying OT fans necessarily don't like the PT, they just see it differently than the other generation. This debate will be really interesting in ten or twenty years, when more people will have seen the saga in its originally conceived order I to VI and therefore will have a different point of view.

The OT may have a more solid storyline, but the PT is more fun to watch.

How so? My idea of entertainment is reflected more by a Han-Leia banter than a CGI effect.



True. Some people should keep their feet on the ground, although I understand the need for realism, which I don't always have unless I'm supposed to buy a movie as a true story. The dialogue between Anakin and Padme was almost fine with me too at first, but after I read the novels I felt like it was missing something.



I disagree. If a line is bad or cheesy, it comes out as bad or cheesy. If a movie has a problem, the two people you have to blame before everyone else are the screenwriter and the director. Too bad in this case it was the same person.

The PT was good and all. Episode III is my favorite just because it is the darkest of the films. But the PT seemed to rely on the story the OT made too much. Episode I and II seemed to lack a beginning.

Originally posted by Eleonora
SW fans can be divided into two categories: the OT generation, including myself and most members of this forum, and the PT generation, which has its potential in today's kids. I'm not saying OT fans necessarily don't like the PT, they just see it differently than the other generation. This debate will be really interesting in ten or twenty years, when more people will have seen the saga in its originally conceived order I to VI and therefore will have a different point of view. Don't even start the 'all the PT needs is nostalgia' crap.

Originally posted by overlord
Don't even start the 'all the PT needs is nostalgia' crap.

We're not talking about nostalgia, we're talking about points of view. I certainly don't see the PT under a certain light because of nostalgia, if you do that's your problem. Logically speaking, there's more probability that people will watch the SW films in a I to VI order in twenty years than in two or five. At that point, the only "nostalgia crap", as you so very well put it, will come from people who had a "back up", aka the OT, when the PT came out and who still won't accept the fact that these films were made in a way which, according to them, fell very far from the tree. As far as I know George Lucas has no intention of making episodes VII, VIII and IX, which means future generations will have nothing new to compare with the old stuff.

Originally posted by Eleonora
I'm not saying OT fans necessarily don't like the PT, they just see it differently than the other generation.

Exactly I like the PT, I just like the OT more.

1) Lack of a strong villain. Unlike the OT, where Vader was the man to fear for the entire trilogy, the PT had no strong villain figure. Palpatine just sat in the background scheming and plotting never really doing anything evil until halfway through RotS. Every time we meet a strong villain character (Maul, Dooku, Grevious), they die very quickly and we never get to a point where they could be recognized and feared. If Lucas had let Maul escape after he killed Qui-Gon instead of being killed, then had him lead the seperatists in Episode II before finally being killed by Obi-Wan in Episode III, things would have been a lot better on that front. Or perhaps introducing Darth Tyranus in TPM (Which would have been cool, since he trained Qui-Gon).

2) Lack of a strong group dynamic. In the OT, Luke, Leia, Han, Chewie, Lando, R2 and Threepio all knew and interacted with each other in various ways. TPM was able to capture this feeling with Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Anakin, Padme, R2 and Jar Jar, but it completely dissapeared after that. It became a "Chain" as opposed to a "net." Padme interacted only with Anakin (which made her seem somewhat like a 5th wheel), who interacted only with her and Obi-Wan, who interacted only with Anakin and Yoda/Mace. See? No group, there. It really hurt the feel and cohesion of the movie. Instead of watching seperate parts of one story that weaved through each other from time to time, it felt like we were watching several completely seperate stories that coalesced into one at the very end.

3) Lack of a strong lead actor and lead actress. Covered above.

4) Lack of beliavability. Anakin's fall to the dark side was WAAAY too rushed. It just felt like "OK, just killed my master in a spur of the moment event. Guess I'm evil now, so I'll go and slaughter everyone I ever knew and loved. I'll even kill the kids so I seem even more evil. Oh... maybe I should be a bit remorseful too, so I guess I'll go off and cry for a bit."

5) Lack of strong space battles. TPM's space battle wasn't bad, but it didn't capture the epic feeling of either of the Death Star Battles. RotS's space scene was ho-hum at best. The whole thing felt like it was on rails a la Starfox.

6) Narrow-view of the Star Wars universe. Again, aside from TPM, the entire series is focused almost entirely on the Jedi and their way of life. In the OT, we had a smuggler, a rebel leader, a Jedi and an business man. Each of these gave us a seperate view of the galaxy. In the PT, it really just felt like you were following an upper-class noble around and had no chance to get a feel for some of the "cooler" parts of the galaxy like the Mos Eisley cantina.

7) We knew the story already. This really couldn't be helped, but it did hurt the movies.

8) Lacked the epic feeling of the OT. In the Battle of Yavin, the fate of the Rebellion was in the hands of a handful of rebel pilots hurtling towards the seemingly-unstoppable might of the Death Star. At the Battle of Endor, the destiny of the entire Galaxy sat on a razors edge as the forces of good and evil clashed in a final battle of titanic proportions. There were no such instances in the PT. Just a sudden takeover by the Empire and a slaughter of the Jedi. Maybe if the Republic had at least put up a fight before it got taken over, things would have been better.

Originally posted by Generic Hero
1) Lack of a strong villain. Unlike the OT, where Vader was the man to fear for the entire trilogy, the PT had no strong villain figure. Palpatine just sat in the background scheming and plotting never really doing anything evil until halfway through RotS. Every time we meet a strong villain character (Maul, Dooku, Grevious), they die very quickly and we never get to a point where they could be recognized and feared. If Lucas had let Maul escape after he killed Qui-Gon instead of being killed, then had him lead the seperatists in Episode II before finally being killed by Obi-Wan in Episode III, things would have been a lot better on that front. Or perhaps introducing Darth Tyranus in TPM (Which would have been cool, since he trained Qui-Gon).

2) Lack of a strong group dynamic. In the OT, Luke, Leia, Han, Chewie, Lando, R2 and Threepio all knew and interacted with each other in various ways. TPM was able to capture this feeling with Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Anakin, Padme, R2 and Jar Jar, but it completely dissapeared after that. It became a "Chain" as opposed to a "net." Padme interacted only with Anakin (which made her seem somewhat like a 5th wheel), who interacted only with her and Obi-Wan, who interacted only with Anakin and Yoda/Mace. See? No group, there. It really hurt the feel and cohesion of the movie. Instead of watching seperate parts of one story that weaved through each other from time to time, it felt like we were watching several completely seperate stories that coalesced into one at the very end.

3) Lack of a strong lead actor and lead actress. Covered above.

4) Lack of beliavability. Anakin's fall to the dark side was WAAAY too rushed. It just felt like "OK, just killed my master in a spur of the moment event. Guess I'm evil now, so I'll go and slaughter everyone I ever knew and loved. I'll even kill the kids so I seem even more evil. Oh... maybe I should be a bit remorseful too, so I guess I'll go off and cry for a bit."

5) Lack of strong space battles. TPM's space battle wasn't bad, but it didn't capture the epic feeling of either of the Death Star Battles. RotS's space scene was ho-hum at best. The whole thing felt like it was on rails a la Starfox.

6) Narrow-view of the Star Wars universe. Again, aside from TPM, the entire series is focused almost entirely on the Jedi and their way of life. In the OT, we had a smuggler, a rebel leader, a Jedi and an business man. Each of these gave us a seperate view of the galaxy. In the PT, it really just felt like you were following an upper-class noble around and had no chance to get a feel for some of the "cooler" parts of the galaxy like the Mos Eisley cantina.

7) We knew the story already. This really couldn't be helped, but it did hurt the movies.

8) Lacked the epic feeling of the OT. In the Battle of Yavin, the fate of the Rebellion was in the hands of a handful of rebel pilots hurtling towards the seemingly-unstoppable might of the Death Star. At the Battle of Endor, the destiny of the entire Galaxy sat on a razors edge as the forces of good and evil clashed in a final battle of titanic proportions. There were no such instances in the PT. Just a sudden takeover by the Empire and a slaughter of the Jedi. Maybe if the Republic had at least put up a fight before it got taken over, things would have been better. Two thumbs way up.

I agree with what's been said, The OT was my childhood, the PT is my escapism in my adult life and I'll still be thinking about these 6 movies every day even if I live to be 100.

Originally posted by Generic Hero
1) Lack of a strong villain. Unlike the OT, where Vader was the man to fear for the entire trilogy, the PT had no strong villain figure.
This is true, but having a supervillian like Vader would have diminished Vaders real power as a villian and power in the saga.

Originally posted by Generic Hero
2) Lack of a strong group dynamic.
3) Lack of a strong lead actor and lead actress.
Very True.

Originally posted by Generic Hero
4) Lack of beliavability.
In some ways I feel the PT is more believable than the OT. The PT actually aknowledges morla shades of grey in the universe. The OT is far more about moral contrast.

Originally posted by Generic Hero
5) Lack of strong space battles.
I liked the TPM space battle exluding Anikans childish antics. I also thought that Obi-Wan and Jango in the asteroid field was very good. This main difference comes from the fact that Luke and Han are both pilots...there's bound to be more dogfighting. If Lucas would have let Anakin actually dogfight in ROTS, I would have said they were equal.

Originally posted by Generic Hero
6) Narrow-view of the Star Wars universe.
It your way it is narrower. We stay focused on high society, but it IS an aspect of the Universe that was not presented in the OT. The change in focus showd the massive destabilization that the CLone Wars and the Empire caused.

Originally posted by Generic Hero
7) We knew the story already.
Definately a huge minus for the OT. But I can't imagine watching all of ANH and ESB already knowing the Vader-Luke relationship.

Originally posted by Generic Hero
8) Lacked the epic feeling of the OT. In the Battle of Yavin, the fate of the Rebellion was in the hands of a handful of rebel pilots hurtling towards the seemingly-unstoppable might of the Death Star. At the Battle of Endor, the destiny of the entire Galaxy sat on a razors edge as the forces of good and evil clashed in a final battle of titanic proportions. There were no such instances in the PT. Just a sudden takeover by the Empire and a slaughter of the Jedi. Maybe if the Republic had at least put up a fight before it got taken over, things would have been better.

You over exadgerate the OT. I find the Republic-Confederacy conflict very epic. Endor was no more epic than Coruscant save for the fact that Endor actually got us into some cockpits. Good/Evil conflicts are lame imo. I find much more truth and interest in evil/evil and good/good conflicts like the Repulic and the COnfederacy. The PT actually lets us see some epic planets instead of hanging out in cockpits and small rooms all the time. The ground battles of the PT are much more epic than the OT and the lightsaber combat between the two is almost uncomparable.

Endor was more epic in the sense that this was a do or die mission, if they failed here, that was it, the Rebels are finished.

Coruscant's battle had no background to it in the movies other than their kidnapping of Palpatine. We didn't really know which fleet was more powerful, who was really winning the war, or really just what was going on. Plus it focused solely on Anakin and Obi-Wan, whereas Endor was all over the map, showing us the battle from all sides.

Originally posted by DeVi| D0do
IMO the status of the originals has been hindered greatly just by the existance of the Prequel Trilogy.
Status? Who cares about status?

Are people actually thinking "Oh yeah, Star Wars was great, but once they made those prequels, well, now everything is tainted." Oh brother.

I think there are actually THREE kinds of SW people in the world, OT lovers, PT lovers, and OT and PT lovers!

The battle of Endor and duel between Vader and Luke are what saved ROTJ in my opinion, because the rest of the movie I felt to be pointless fluff.

I was born after the OT came out, having been born in 1986, yet I still MUCH prefer the OT. I first saw it when I was about 10 years old and within two weeks of having bought the VHSs had watched the entire trilogy 5 times. I never actually saw the SEs until the DVDs came out though, as I'd bought the original VHSs less than a year before and saw no real point in spending that much money again especially as I was so young and that's a lot of cash.

But the OT just is better, I think. Better writing, better directing, better characterization, better plots, better actors...the only thing the PT really has over the OT is the special effect, which ultimately in my opinion mean nothing at all because it always felt to me that Lucas was using all the fun flashy effects to draw attention away from the fact that the movies really were not as good as they could have been.

This is not to say I don't like the PT, because I do. It just isn't as good as the OT, I think.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
THE PT IS BETTER BECAUSE OF COUNT DOOKU!!!!!! You are a stupid troll, LOLOLOL!!! jump

Originally posted by Lana
The battle of Endor and duel between Vader and Luke are what saved ROTJ in my opinion, because the rest of the movie I felt to be pointless fluff.

I was born after the OT came out, having been born in 1986, yet I still MUCH prefer the OT. I first saw it when I was about 10 years old and within two weeks of having bought the VHSs had watched the entire trilogy 5 times. I never actually saw the SEs until the DVDs came out though, as I'd bought the original VHSs less than a year before and saw no real point in spending that much money again especially as I was so young and that's a lot of cash.

But the OT just is better, I think. Better writing, better directing, better characterization, better plots, better actors...the only thing the PT really has over the OT is the special effect, which ultimately in my opinion mean nothing at all because it always felt to me that Lucas was using all the fun flashy effects to draw attention away from the fact that the movies really were not as good as they could have been.

This is not to say I don't like the PT, because I do. It just isn't as good as the OT, I think.

...Yeah...

Originally posted by smoker4
The concept was new then, the special effects were a big thing then, the stories are better especially ESB, its also Nostalgic for someone like me who saw them first time round, if i had been born after they came out my view on it might be totally different.



starwars I agree~

Originally posted by Generic Hero
1) Lack of a strong villain. Unlike the OT, where Vader was the man to fear for the entire trilogy, the PT had no strong villain figure. Palpatine just sat in the background scheming and plotting never really doing anything evil until halfway through RotS. Every time we meet a strong villain character (Maul, Dooku, Grevious), they die very quickly and we never get to a point where they could be recognized and feared. If Lucas had let Maul escape after he killed Qui-Gon instead of being killed, then had him lead the seperatists in Episode II before finally being killed by Obi-Wan in Episode III, things would have been a lot better on that front. Or perhaps introducing Darth Tyranus in TPM (Which would have been cool, since he trained Qui-Gon).

2) Lack of a strong group dynamic. In the OT, Luke, Leia, Han, Chewie, Lando, R2 and Threepio all knew and interacted with each other in various ways. TPM was able to capture this feeling with Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Anakin, Padme, R2 and Jar Jar, but it completely dissapeared after that. It became a "Chain" as opposed to a "net." Padme interacted only with Anakin (which made her seem somewhat like a 5th wheel), who interacted only with her and Obi-Wan, who interacted only with Anakin and Yoda/Mace. See? No group, there. It really hurt the feel and cohesion of the movie. Instead of watching seperate parts of one story that weaved through each other from time to time, it felt like we were watching several completely seperate stories that coalesced into one at the very end.

3) Lack of a strong lead actor and lead actress. Covered above.

4) Lack of beliavability. Anakin's fall to the dark side was WAAAY too rushed. It just felt like "OK, just killed my master in a spur of the moment event. Guess I'm evil now, so I'll go and slaughter everyone I ever knew and loved. I'll even kill the kids so I seem even more evil. Oh... maybe I should be a bit remorseful too, so I guess I'll go off and cry for a bit."

5) Lack of strong space battles. TPM's space battle wasn't bad, but it didn't capture the epic feeling of either of the Death Star Battles. RotS's space scene was ho-hum at best. The whole thing felt like it was on rails a la Starfox.

6) Narrow-view of the Star Wars universe. Again, aside from TPM, the entire series is focused almost entirely on the Jedi and their way of life. In the OT, we had a smuggler, a rebel leader, a Jedi and an business man. Each of these gave us a seperate view of the galaxy. In the PT, it really just felt like you were following an upper-class noble around and had no chance to get a feel for some of the "cooler" parts of the galaxy like the Mos Eisley cantina.

7) We knew the story already. This really couldn't be helped, but it did hurt the movies.

8) Lacked the epic feeling of the OT. In the Battle of Yavin, the fate of the Rebellion was in the hands of a handful of rebel pilots hurtling towards the seemingly-unstoppable might of the Death Star. At the Battle of Endor, the destiny of the entire Galaxy sat on a razors edge as the forces of good and evil clashed in a final battle of titanic proportions. There were no such instances in the PT. Just a sudden takeover by the Empire and a slaughter of the Jedi. Maybe if the Republic had at least put up a fight before it got taken over, things would have been better.

especially #4

The PT was more about politics than adventure

Originally posted by Lana
The battle of Endor and duel between Vader and Luke are what saved ROTJ in my opinion, because the rest of the movie I felt to be pointless fluff.

I was born after the OT came out, having been born in 1986, yet I still MUCH prefer the OT. I first saw it when I was about 10 years old and within two weeks of having bought the VHSs had watched the entire trilogy 5 times. I never actually saw the SEs until the DVDs came out though, as I'd bought the original VHSs less than a year before and saw no real point in spending that much money again especially as I was so young and that's a lot of cash.

But the OT just is better, I think. Better writing, better directing, better characterization, better plots, better actors...the only thing the PT really has over the OT is the special effect, which ultimately in my opinion mean nothing at all because it always felt to me that Lucas was using all the fun flashy effects to draw attention away from the fact that the movies really were not as good as they could have been.

This is not to say I don't like the PT, because I do. It just isn't as good as the OT, I think.

This is similar to my story, but the PT goes into some areas that the OT just glosses over, like politics, hypocrisy, and the role of the jedi. I think these things do contribute greatly to our understanding of the OT. I like the PT and OT on a fairly equal basis. What the PT has in political philosophy, art direction, and detail the OT makes up for with sometimes decent scripts, acting, and a philisophical direction of its own.

Originally posted by chinabing
Status? Who cares about status?

Are people actually thinking "Oh yeah, Star Wars was great, but once they made those prequels, well, now everything is tainted."
Yes. If you said the words "Star Wars" to people fifteen years ago it would conjure up a completely different image to what people would think of now...

You know what I think was majorly instrumental in the downfall (and I use the word lightly) of Star Wars? Kids. Specifically, Lucas's kids. Think about it... what did we get after Lucas had kids? We got Ewoks, a cheesy musical number, comical and pointless inserts into the SW SE, Jar Jar... All after Lucas started his family. ROTJ, IMO is a noticeably different tone to ANH and ESB... much closer to TPM.

Just a musing I thought was interesting...

At least John Williams kept it together. We can all agree that the music was phenomenal for all six, and that's a plus.

Originally posted by chinabing
Status? Who cares about status?

Are people actually thinking "Oh yeah, Star Wars was great, but once they made those prequels, well, now everything is tainted." Oh brother.

I think there are actually THREE kinds of SW people in the world, OT lovers, PT lovers, and OT and PT lovers!
Haha, I can just imagine PT lovers who don't like the OT.
"yeah, the prequels were so much better with incredible romantic scenes and the yoda/sidious fight was fantastic! Two Force giants battling each other? What more could you want? It was a spectacular battle. Never have we seen the huge power of the Force such we did then. They were throwing senate pods as if they were frisbees. Lightning blasts, and Yoda catches it and throws it back. Fantastic.

And it was a "teachable moment" too. Yoda and Sidious battled to a draw. But Yoda says he failed. Yoda wanted to defeat Sids, but because it was a draw, he says he failed. That's honesty and leadership for you."

PT lovers sound pretty gay to me just like the fanboys start to sound more gay by the day.

As an aside, I was killing time watching Beverly Hills Cop III today, and there in an amusement park was The Maker himself, George Lucas, as a guy whom Axel cut in front of to get on a ride.

So I IMDB'd it and there Lucas was, and so was Joe Dante. Landis was the director, so I was half expecting Spielberg to be in the credits too, but he wasn't there. However, there was Forrest J Ackerman, Arthur Hiller, Ray Harryhausen, and composer Robert Sherman! Lucas was with an actress called Christina Venuti.

I don't get it; it was a terrible movie, but had all these behind-the-lenses hollywood types in cameos.

CG is the shit cuz that is what mr lucas would have done in '78!
by the way what is lukes shoe size?
i love all 6 star wars!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by maddani
CG is the shit cuz that is what mr lucas would have done in '78!
by the way what is lukes shoe size?
i love all 6 star wars!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Noone know's Lucas's shoesize. After his ego was inflated by his own success, his feet followed suit.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
At least John Williams kept it together. We can all agree that the music was phenomenal for all six, and that's a plus.

it was the only star from the OT that held its own in the PT. agree 150% . Johnny will never do anything suck-ass. its not in his character, h will continue to write sensational scores until the day he dies.

Originally posted by DeVi| D0do

You know what I think was majorly instrumental in the downfall (and I use the word lightly) of Star Wars? Kids. Specifically, Lucas's kids.

Just a musing I thought was interesting...

I'd say the EU and fanboys.

Originally posted by chinabing
As an aside, I was killing time watching Beverly Hills Cop III today, and there in an amusement park was The Maker himself, George Lucas, as a guy whom Axel cut in front of to get on a ride.

So I IMDB'd it and there Lucas was, and so was Joe Dante. Landis was the director, so I was half expecting Spielberg to be in the credits too, but he wasn't there. However, there was Forrest J Ackerman, Arthur Hiller, Ray Harryhausen, and composer Robert Sherman! Lucas was with an actress called Christina Venuti.

I don't get it; it was a terrible movie, but had all these behind-the-lenses hollywood types in cameos. It's because Eddy Murphy is black.

Originally posted by overlord
It's because Eddy Murphy is black.

Wtf is that supposed to mean?

Please elaborate!

I don't know, Chinabing or whatever the hell his name is suddenly starts whining about why famous people want to cameo in a movie he finds boring. I thought maybe because Eddy Murphy is such a famous guy, everybody is his friend and it was probably his birthday.
Whatever, I really don't give a F*CK!!

So now its because he's famous and its his birthday now?

Jeez, amazing turn around there

Notice how I don't give a F*CK. His popularity is probably because he's black.

I only notice that you are a clown shoe and a closet racist

On topic ESB is the best of the saga

Yes. If you said the words "Star Wars" to people fifteen years ago it would conjure up a completely different image to what people would think of now...
Well, yeah, but is that so wrong? We finally know the whole story. Darth Vader is not so much the ultimate villian but a sad, tragic man. I don't care about a few moments of bad acting or cheesy dialogue. This is space opera we're talking about, and wonderful space opera! And the wonderful allegories and mythology are still there in all six movies.
You know what I think was majorly instrumental in the downfall (and I use the word lightly) of Star Wars? Kids. Specifically, Lucas's kids. Think about it... what did we get after Lucas had kids? We got Ewoks, a cheesy musical number, comical and pointless inserts into the SW SE, Jar Jar... All after Lucas started his family. ROTJ, IMO is a noticeably different tone to ANH and ESB... much closer to TPM.
There's probably something to that. Lucas said in his speech to the AFI or whatever gave him a lifetime award last year that children are the most important thing in the world.

However, ask a parent if he or she thinks the same way.

Kids don't explain Lucas' switch to a PG-13 for ROTS, the beheadings in AOTC, and all the other stronger violence in the final two prequels.

Kids (specifically preteens and teens) explain the "LOL SABER FIGHT" mentality of RotS.

"This is space opera we're talking about, and wonderful space opera! "

Gee, thanx. I know I'm wonderful...

Originally posted by Generic Hero
Kids (specifically preteens and teens) explain the "LOL SABER FIGHT" mentality of RotS.

It doesnt really make sense.

Plot objectives: Get rid of Dooku, Grievious, Mace, and Anakin.

Lucas apparently decided to have all of them end in a lightsaber battle.

I guess thats fine, but the Yoda-Sidious duel was unecessary and poorly placed in the film, which makes it even more unessecary.

Originally posted by Alliance
It doesnt really make sense.

Plot objectives: Get rid of Dooku, Grievious, Mace, and Anakin.

Lucas apparently decided to have all of them end in a lightsaber battle.

I guess thats fine, but the Yoda-Sidious duel was unecessary and poorly placed in the film, which makes it even more unessecary.

I agree. Dooku should have stayed in longer, perhaps had a more spectacular fight scene. Greivous couldnt really be established as a character because we hardly ever saw him. He was introduced, seen with the CIS and then killed. We needed to see him with Count Dooku, perhaps watched them fight together. That would have added some depth to his character. I liked Mace's fight, however GL could have done a much better job with it eg choreography. And Anakins fall to the dark side was far too rushed, but this has been stated by fellow members many times before.

Basically GL made the PT seem to rushed. He let the story line drop slightly in place for speacial effects / CGI. Dont get me wrong I love the special effects, but GL could have done a lot more with some of the characters.

Dooku really needed to be in TPM or developed more as a character. Grievous I like and I feel we got enough of him in ROTS.

Lucas was just biting off way more than he could chew with the PT.

I love the PT, but the OT was groundbreaking - and each time you compare the two, it makes the PT look more worse than what it is - an average, but pretty good trilogy.

The OT has such a reputation, that by comparing the two, completley devalues them.

Originally posted by smoker4
I only notice that you are a clown shoe and a closet racist Uhmm.. No.
But even though nobody cares, I have noticed that you are a bit oversensitive.

Originally posted by Stun
the OT was groundbreaking - and each time you compare the two, it makes the PT look more worse than what it is
Yeah, I actually agree with this...

I don't think the PT was ever going to satisfy everyone... or even most people... And I think Lucas knew that... and in turn didn't really do his absolute best with the films because he knew that they'd never live up to the originals.

When you compare any of the PT films to some of the other blockbusters that have come out the past decade they really aren't that bad... But in the context of Star Wars, and the Star Wars phenomenon, they're lackluster at best...

I thinks thats a good point. ANH defined a new genre of movie and a revolution in film making.

The PT is not bad, i wouldn't call it lack luster, its just not revolutionary, but things did happen. While the OT revolutionized special effects, TPM had the first all digital charater (unfortunately Binks) and AOTC was one of if not the first film shot in all digital. ROTS had nothing new and exciting.

Artistically, the PT is as good as the OT and is a lot more artistic than the OT. The PT has some really good stuff in there too...it just moves to fast and covers too much ground to fit into 2.5 hrs. If Lucas would have concentrated less on action sequences and slowed things down, made them a bit longer (especially AOTC with its 43 plotlines)...they would have been much better films.

A lot of the enjoyment of the OT came from they mystery of Darth Vader. For 18 years we wondered. Now after the prequels, we know the why. When I watch the OT now, questions are answered and mysteries are revealed. Things we guessed we knew, we didn't. Motivations are turned on their heads.

I really don't watch movies to see the latest technical wizardry, they most often get in the way of the story because the director loves it so much. (How many times can the liquid-metal cop dude morph in "Terminator 2"? Too many for me.) It's fun being stunned, but not over and over again with the same thing. James Cameron and Peter Jackson are often so repetitive in their effects films.

Films don't have to be ground-breaking to be awesome, but while Lucas often pushes the envelope, (Binks, all-digi-camera in AOTC), he mostly hits a home run. The opening sequence of ROTS was stunning, as was the final battle between Yoda and Sidious. But they both moved the story. The prequels have wonderful stories, and fill in the pieces of the OT. I also happen to like politics and watching the rise of the Empire is a wonderful study, with parallels to modern totalitarianism.

Perhaps it might help appreciation of the prequels if one does what Lucas said, view them all as one big movie. Embrace a larger view of Star Wars to paraphrase.

StarWars has been expanded, the prequels effect on the perceptions of Vader and the Empire are immesurable.

Visual effects, sound, intense lightsaber fights, better soundtracks IMO, the fact that we get to see what the pre-empire galaxy was like in something other than EU.

Originally posted by overlord
Uhmm.. No.
But even though nobody cares, I have noticed that you are a bit oversensitive.

Nope not really





Yeap

Oh, okay..

Originally posted by Stun
I love the PT, but the OT was groundbreaking - and each time you compare the two, it makes the PT look more worse than what it is - an average, but pretty good trilogy.

The OT has such a reputation, that by comparing the two, completley devalues them.

Exactly, at the time of the release of the OT, nothing like it had been made.

Especially the ending of the prequel trilogy sucked. Monster Sidious versus some CGI green dwarve fight a silly duel on a small pod, then pods go flying and they go away.
Then the final battle, master versus apprentice. fighting goes on forever above lava and extremely dangerous objects floating through it. Suddenly the apprentice jumps on hot slope and is left burning there. He is revived immediately afterwards.
What a lame ending! Way to end a trilogy!

I would've prefered Yoda losing horribly and perhaps with some remaining jedi with him who die horribly and Obi Wan cutting off a limb or two with Anakin screaming like a retard and falling in the lava without the scene where he is revived.
That would have felt like an ending instead of the completing transition to the OT. Padme's death was also pretty pointless. I should've walked out the theatre after the first half. Everything in the PT was good before the odd ending.

Its a bit more violent.

Yoda and Sidious hsould have been scrapped. THe only redeeming value i got from it was that Yoda became arrogant.

Anakin and Obi-Wan should have been more serious. instead of little lava river antics.

But i cant complain aobut the actual last scene on Tatooine. I bawled. cry

Ya don't know what you're talking about. The Yoda-Sidious battle was easily one of the best of the series. As Lucas said in the commentary, having it in the Senate chamber flinging pods around was an allegory of the end of democracy. And very cool to watch too. It's one of my favorite parts of ROTS, especially with the pre-fight banter, and the knocking-heads of the red guards! How can you not like the red guards?! Some are just never satisfied.

I can not watch the duels at the end of ROTS at all, And let me tell you why. I will start with Yoda versus Sidious because it is easier to explain why I hate it and see it as pointless.

1. The Music- it was a reused cue from TPM. There should have been epic music with a sad tone as you watched two great beings destroy the senate which symbolized democracy.

2. A good rule of editing is, that if you leave a scene and you don't know anymore than you did when you entered that scene, it should probably be cut.And that is the case in this scene. We know the exact same thing when we leave the scene as we did when we entered it. The real reason why this scene is here is not for symbolism, but as a poor ass way of showing the cause of Yoda's exhile.

Now for my reasons of hating the Anikan verus Obi-Wan duel.

1. It is suppossed to be The Duel of Duels. Sadly it is not. The only real difference between it and any other duel is that it is packed full of CGI and it has Lava Surfing. I wanted to see Anikan doing everything in his power to kill Obi-wan. I wanted to see him resort beating the shit out of Obi-Wan by hand not just by lightsaber.

2. Not enough emotion. I can't believe Obi-Wan and Anikan are that emotionally attatched, because all they did in the last movie was bicker and fight. Twenty minutes of fighting side by side and a few jokes together at the beginning of Episode 3 is not enough for me to believe that they are that close. So the emotional part of the duel is lost to me.

3. George and his stupid CGI goofiness. When Anikan and Obi-Wan are fighting across the pipes during the duel a droid flies up and does the little "what the crapt" moment and pulls me completely out of the moment. And then later when Anikan jumps onto the head of the same kind of droid to escape the lava falls this droid does another "what the crapt" moment as the camera focuses on the droids face instead of Anikan's. It is stuff like this that pisses me off. The viewer doesn't care what a stupid droid in the background or foreground is doing, we care about the characters and their actions. All these droids are doing is destracting the veiwer and showing off CGI.

I don't care if you agree with my reasons or not not but these are my reasons for hating two duels that had so much potentiel until George screwed them up.

You rock...I fully agree. These duels are overblown and contain little substance, timing or suspense...and the music during both of them stinks.

The music during the Anakin and Obiwan battle over the lava seems like it's just there, not reflecting what's on screen. It's like it's from a video game segue video or something. I know what you mean about the droids...Lucas has lost it.

You see Luke/vader at the end of Empire and it's like a 3 part opera...it's geniously crafted getting more suspensful as it goes on. Oh yeah...Lucas didn't direct that one.

And you need not look any further than the Obi-wan/Grievous chase for horrible editing...It's cut right in half!! As far as smart filmaking goes, this movie is just a frustrating disaster IMO.

The only decently paced and put together prequel was Ep.I...and that's probably because he had 20 years to prepare for it! Too bad it's kinda boring.

What makes the new movies better than old ones? Is that a trick question?

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
You rock...I fully agree.... Ditto.

In the context of just the movie, they're probably fine. But it's Star Wars. The last one ever. It deserved to go out with a bang... But instead it was like one of those crappy fireworks that makes a tonne of noise but only gives a tiny little spark...

The emotion is what bugs me the most about the Anakin/Obi-Wan duel... or the lack thereof. It's virtually non-exsitant. There should have been bantering, yelling, the two of them giving it their all... Anakin to kill Obi-wan, Obi-wan to save Anakin. I don't care if it's the longest sword fight in movie history... if it covered the most distance... The duel in ROTJ took place in one room and it beats this one a thousand times over. Because it has emotion.

What's maybe even more annoying is that the whole thing happens for no reason... "What the **** are you doing here?", "I've come to turn you back to the good side", "**** you, let's fight".

Add to that the fact that the choreography is worse than most fan-films, and that it all looks like a cartoon... It's arguably as bad as the AOTC duels...

F*ckin' ditto on the last three posts.

Glad to see poeple who agree with me. Thanks for the feedback.

Originally posted by DeVi| D0do

What's maybe even more annoying is that the whole thing happens for no reason... "What the **** are you doing here?", "I've come to turn you back to the good side", "**** you, let's fight".


on point

For the thread starter of this thread.your trying to be funny right? The originals-except Return of the jedi,are masterpieces.The new ones are pure crap.

Originally posted by Tangible God
Endor was more epic in the sense that this was a do or die mission, if they failed here, that was it, the Rebels are finished.

Coruscant's battle had no background to it in the movies other than their kidnapping of Palpatine. We didn't really know which fleet was more powerful, who was really winning the war, or really just what was going on. Plus it focused solely on Anakin and Obi-Wan, whereas Endor was all over the map, showing us the battle from all sides.

They were assuming you watched the Cartoon Series : /

And that lengthy reasons, I give it 5 Stars, you hit it perfectly

My theory is this:

People who like both trilogies are flexible and actually take the time to analyze both trilogies equally. They realize that they are different trilogies made in different times with different messages.

People who only like the OT are reluctant to ever reanalyze the OT. They hold it as an idol that is somewho unexplanibly immutable. They then hate the PT because its not the OT and isn't trying to be.

Everyone has problems with the PT. I have porblems with the OT too. They are movies. They are not perfect or the way you want them to be.

Hey, Alliance...Apo tin Ellada vriskesse?

Originally posted by Alliance
They are not perfect or the way you want them to be.

I disagree!! "Empire" is perfect!!!...except for some overacting by Hammil...and how dumb it was when the Star Destroyers collided trying to catch the Falcon...drats it isn't perfect!!

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Hey, Alliance...Apo tin Ellada vriskesse?

I wish! Do you? The characters are so beautiful. I just use it for its powerful significance and its....classicism . Its correct though right?

You mean you didn't like it when Hamil's face melted off?

Man, I love the final battles of ROTS. It was absolutely spectacular. Yoda/Sidous was just un-freakin'-frockin'- believeable! It was stunning. I cue it up time and time again, and I catch new things each time! I still do because I think there's something I've not seen yet.

I love the intercutting between each battle, just as Lucas has done since ROTS, meshing and weaving. Man it's a thing of beauty. Yes it is the final Star Wars, and it is spectacular. I didn't know Yoda was going to face off with Sidious, maybe non-spoiler-free folk did, but I loved the banter in the well of the senate. Then moving up the battle with the frisbee senate pods. Well, it would be just like throwing arena-sized scoreboards around in a basketball court. And added to that the fact that demorcracy was ending in the republic, man it was a stunning finale. Destroying Democracy, it was spectacular and chilling. It kind of reminded me of the burning of the Reichstag, or the Brit's trashing the White House.

Of course we all knew that Yoda, Sidous, Kenobi and Vader all survived into the next film. For two battles in which we know all four survive, the story was down to filling in the blanks. It wasn't like ROTJ when everybody died left and right! They all lived! Ya know how hard it is to end a huge battle sequence where... the main fighters live to fight another day? How rare is that? And Lucas pulls it off. And the fact is, Lucas is hemmed in due to that reality.

And another thing, what's with all this "I would have liked it better if..." Oh you would have, would you? And how would you know this? How do you know you'd like it? Some viewers seem to think they have a choice in the matter! Well, until you can purchase the rights, you don't have a choice and it ain't your movie! It's Lucas'. Enjoy his vision, I certainly do most of the time. Don't fight it, embrace your inner space opera buff.

And complaining about re-using the music? In Star Wars? You know how ridiculous that sounds? Williams could probably fit all the themes on one disk. The Battle of the Heroes track? More Williams gold. How can you not like that theme when they're battling? Post after post on these boards raves about it. It's one of the best music in all 6 films.

And the whole "It's supposed to be the duel of duels." Well, there you go again, it sounds like 1999 and everyone was saying Ep I is supposed to be the greatest movie of all time. Then everyone hated it because of all the backlash at the hype! Your expectations and hype killed ROTS' battles for you. I thought the battle was incredible. The stunt work was amazing, and running and battling in the falling lava and nearly falling over the lava falls, man it was just thrilling. I couldn't have been happier. I thought the "Well then you are lost!" banter was excellent, that was one of my favorite Obi-Wan lines.

I will be watching the final battles again and again.

Originally posted by chinabing
Well, there you go again, it sounds like 1999 and everyone was saying Ep I is supposed to be the greatest movie of all time. Then everyone hated it because of all the backlash at the hype!

I think this is an extremely valid point.

But you must admit that there are things that you would like to see done differently. The yoda crawling throught he tunnel was a major turn off and the stupid lava droids are, personally, onyl annoying.

Chinabing.. What the f*ck? Everybody said Episode I was the best movie ever? What the hell! And please cut the exaguration out about the yoda/Sidious fight, just because you got wet dreams about a CGI character fighting a messed up mutant on a small pod didn't mean it actually was un-freakin'-frockin'- believeable and stunning.
The fighting on a small pod looked incredibly dumb and the throwing of pods also wasn't that impressive. It could've been so much better!! Just look at the first fights in the movies.
It began brilliantly with the fight of Anakin versus Dooku and the fight of Mace versus palpatine was like the f*cking climax of the movies.
Then it seemed as though Lucas wanted to quickly finish writing and everything after the first half was a bit on the down side.

And the ending of the apprentice versus the former master fight concluded by Anakin just jumping on a hot slope? That was plain gay! Everyone knows how f*cked up Vader is, they could've just let Obi Wan defeat him properly by cutting off some limbs with some horrifying screaming and Obi Wan leaving him for dead when Vader falls down to burn somewhere.
Your pathetic attitude of how absu-f*cking-mazing everything was doesn't even leave space for an open mind towards improvement? Every critic probably thinks the first duels were a hundred times better than the Yoda versus Sidious one.
Didn't Steven Spielberg do that scene? Well, it was poor..

Steven Spielberg worked on the mustafar duel.

That he did, he came up with the idea for that shot where ANakin and ObiWan are hinding from the lava raining down.

Originally posted by overlord
And the ending of the apprentice versus the former master fight concluded by Anakin just jumping on a hot slope? That was plain gay! Everyone knows how f*cked up Vader is, they could've just let Obi Wan defeat him properly by cutting off some limbs with some horrifying screaming and Obi Wan leaving him for dead when Vader falls down to burn somewhere.


Wait, I'm confused, isn't that what happened?

Oh sorry, I thought the ending of the battle was due to Anakin jumping solely on a hot slope without getting any limb cut or being actually defeated. I must have been mistaken.
But yeah, if a supposed climax is to end like that, it would be pretty lame.

Good thing it didn't happen like that in that case!

My 3 favorites are EP:3,5,6

personally I think EP 3 is the most alike EP to the Old ones...

Its funny that you say that. In many ways i think ROTS is nothing like the OT, except it has a slightly higher maturity level.

Yeah...Lucas himslef said it wasn't going to be like any other Star Wars film...and it wasn't.

...and yes Alliance...those characters are right...I'm from Athens.

...and yes commander fox, DM does rule.

...and yes KMC SW forum, EPIII does BITE.

Seacrest out!!

and thanks

like my first post for so long, havn't been here for yonks

...I'll guess I'll just keep to bulletpoints...

- Lucas wrote the originals based on all his little geeky studies of mythology, generic conventions, binary oppositions and the fine details of storytelling. This is evident in the OT because its just so damn good, but all that knowledge he used for the first trilogy seemed to waste away. We don't have a young, naive kid rebelling against a tyranical evil Empire (a very strong story), we have an arrogant man being arrogant (that was the best I could come up with).

-The heavy use of CGI, not unexpected I know. Yet perhaps, the CGI use isn't a major issue, more of a lack of story. If there was just a little cabin full of old car seats and LED lights, I wouldn't be overwhelmed, but give me a little cabin full of old car seats and LED lights and a story, I'm exuberent.

-Haydyn Christiensen, isn't a bad actor as such, he's not great, but neither was Mark Hamill. My main annoyance with him is that he just doesn't seem compelling enough to watch, theres nothing really fascinating with him, and nor can I take him seriously when hes being "moody".

-Natalie Portman isn't a bad actor either, from decent films like Garden State and even Closer we can see that, she works well as a romantic co-star. Maybe epic sci-fi franchises just aren't here thing, or as I have heard, Lucas just can't direct his actors well.

-Ewan McGregor, as someone said earlier, is great as Obi-wan, but he just isn't old Alec.

-I'm not too sure who I should be following in the story. Do I follow Anakin, who I know is going to turn a little twisted in a few years, Obi Wan, a character that feels yonks away from Old Ben? or Padme, caught helpless in the sidelines (like I felt when I saw Jar Jar not in mortal peril)? All the characters seem to change sides all the time, and I just don't know who to root for. Yes, yes, it may be different etc. but it just doesn't work.

- Jar Jar isn't a crowd favourite, they learnt this after Episode 1.

- Never work with child actors! (evidence to support that Phantom Menace.

- Personal opinion here, but I enjoy the old lightsaber fights much more, even the Ben and Vader duel for laughs. I think for me its just the culmination of the music, the darkness with the sabers humming and the slow movement, especially the regular close-ups of Luke crying/whatever.

- On the whole of the PT saber fights, it all feels like eye candy to me. Gone is the epic space western fought in heaps of metal with engines against an evil Empire, now were just left with a bunch of monks running around in there bed dress, practically dancing the Footloose with a torch in there hand.

I may edit this in the 15 minutes or so that I have left...

I think you guys have hammered why the OT > PT! and I agree
The only respect to which the new films are superior to the old ones is basically the advancements on technology and special effects though only a little and has not always been a good thing either
Also the lightsaber duels are more varied and creative and were more skillfully choerographed PHYSICALLY not emotionally than the old films - certainly an improvement on the Vader versus Kenobi in ep 4 where it looked like two kids picking up toy sabers for the first time in their lives

the old ones look stupid and lack good effects. esb was okay but episode III was much better and better ending. mark hammill looks stupid compare to hayden.

I don't think the old ones looks stupid at all. For the time era those films were made in, they're cinema gold. The effects are really well done for that period, and it's what set the standards for movies today. Although most films today don't even compare to the OT. That's how great they are.

Originally posted by DeVi| D0do
So true. Almost nothing in AOTC is important...

the most important thing in the movie is showing how palp' created the army for his empire and how he got them to be the republic army (the war). the only film that show more then two jedi fighting together and jango was in it.

the best film is ep' III. it so dark and moody, showing how anakin is confused and ultimatly falls, it also show the jedi being wiped out which is good considering every other movie has the good guy winning (exept ep' 5). it also shows how smart the sith are and how the old ways of the jedi are outdated.

How can say that? The OT is ten times bettter ! Its darker funnier , and is at the peak of saga . It also has the most shocking line in hollywood history .

It has two big icons of movie histroy Darth vader and Luke Skywalker
Classics .

i know but i grew up with the new trilogy so thats why! anakin is better than luke (actor and script wise) and palp' is smarter and more cunning than vader and a better villan becuase of it.

I understand but if the OT was a big flop then there whould be no PT . Thats the reasion why George lucus made 1,2,3 becouse the orignals where outsanding.

Originally posted by moviefreak_173
I can not watch the duels at the end of ROTS at all, And let me tell you why. I will start with Yoda versus Sidious because it is easier to explain why I hate it and see it as pointless.

1. The Music- it was a reused cue from TPM. There should have been epic music with a sad tone as you watched two great beings destroy the senate which symbolized democracy.

2. A good rule of editing is, that if you leave a scene and you don't know anymore than you did when you entered that scene, it should probably be cut.And that is the case in this scene. We know the exact same thing when we leave the scene as we did when we entered it. The real reason why this scene is here is not for symbolism, but as a poor ass way of showing the cause of Yoda's exhile.

Now for my reasons of hating the Anikan verus Obi-Wan duel.

1. It is suppossed to be The Duel of Duels. Sadly it is not. The only real difference between it and any other duel is that it is packed full of CGI and it has Lava Surfing. I wanted to see Anikan doing everything in his power to kill Obi-wan. I wanted to see him resort beating the shit out of Obi-Wan by hand not just by lightsaber.

2. Not enough emotion. I can't believe Obi-Wan and Anikan are that emotionally attatched, because all they did in the last movie was bicker and fight. Twenty minutes of fighting side by side and a few jokes together at the beginning of Episode 3 is not enough for me to believe that they are that close. So the emotional part of the duel is lost to me.

3. George and his stupid CGI goofiness. When Anikan and Obi-Wan are fighting across the pipes during the duel a droid flies up and does the little "what the crapt" moment and pulls me completely out of the moment. And then later when Anikan jumps onto the head of the same kind of droid to escape the lava falls this droid does another "what the crapt" moment as the camera focuses on the droids face instead of Anikan's. It is stuff like this that pisses me off. The viewer doesn't care what a stupid droid in the background or foreground is doing, we care about the characters and their actions. All these droids are doing is destracting the veiwer and showing off CGI.

I don't care if you agree with my reasons or not not but these are my reasons for hating two duels that had so much potentiel until George screwed them up.

I agree with you..Also Anikins Dialogue in that scene pissed me the hell of...NO emotion and NO one would say the words "from my point of view the Jedi are evil" in that kind of situation ..crappy writing..

There is NOTHING strong about the dialogue in that scene. I was like WTF? in the cinema..I actually laughed at that moment..Lucas and his CRAP script writing I was trying to feel the emotion of this scene but it just wasn't really there...

Originally posted by jollyjim311

It actually had surprises in it.


thats a crappy argument right there

Originally posted by preysin
the old ones look stupid and lack good effects. esb was okay but episode III was much better and better ending. mark hammill looks stupid compare to hayden.

I think you look stupid and lack good effects.

FX don't make a movie. The plots of the OT kick the asses off of the PT.

Originally posted by Captain REX
FX don't make a movie.


And /threadclosed

Originally posted by preysin
the old ones look stupid and lack good effects. esb was okay but episode III was much better and better ending. mark hammill looks stupid compare to hayden. lack good effects?? during the time of filming in the 70's half or 3/4 of all the effects in starwars was totally new....they were constantly inventing new ways for special effects and film making. think alot of people are forgettin this or just dont know. so for the time period that was cutting edge technology. you cant compare movies that were made +20 years later to the originals and say the effects sucked.

Not only that, but 90% of the VFX in the Originals are more believeable than the cartoons they call CGI in the Prequels...

The Original Trilogy is a classic and will remain a classic in my eyes no matter how far VFX advance in the future.

To be fair, I once read that the effects in "Forbidden Planet" were outstanding. I saw and thought "eh." That was post-Star Wars however. But the people wrote glowingly about Forbidden Planet because there was never anything like it before. Thanks to Star Wars effects are much more common.

Originally posted by sapphiremouse
lack good effects?? during the time of filming in the 70's half or 3/4 of all the effects in starwars was totally new....they were constantly inventing new ways for special effects and film making. think alot of people are forgettin this or just dont know. so for the time period that was cutting edge technology. you cant compare movies that were made +20 years later to the originals and say the effects sucked.

Most of them still work though.... just check out other sci-fi movies of the time (star Trek the movie, Tron, Battlestar GAlactica), SW rules, man.

ya i know.....im tryin to say alot of people or kids that have grown up with starwars episodes 1,2,3. They saying that episodes 4,5,6 totally suck in special affects. See everyone has their opinion about this but if you only grew up in the 90's so to speak. No one could have any kind of appreciation of what Lucas and his team accomplished back in the 70's in terms of NEW special affects.

Originally posted by Darth Grathius
I was born after the original star wars movies came out and after growing up in the day and age of modern Hollywoo the original movies seem to be much worse than eps. 1,2, and 3. Please explain to me why 4,5, and 6 are so much better. Besides Hayden Christianson.
I don't understand. You've said what makes the newer ones better, but you've also said, what makes 4, 5 & 6 better so what do you mean?

that post is almost 6 years old. i doubt you'll get an answer, brah.

Originally posted by focus4chumps
that post is almost 6 years old. i doubt you'll get an answer, brah. LOL

Originally posted by Generic Hero
1) Lack of a strong villain. Unlike the OT, where Vader was the man to fear for the entire trilogy, the PT had no strong villain figure. Palpatine just sat in the background scheming and plotting never really doing anything evil until halfway through RotS. Every time we meet a strong villain character (Maul, Dooku, Grevious), they die very quickly and we never get to a point where they could be recognized and feared. If Lucas had let Maul escape after he killed Qui-Gon instead of being killed, then had him lead the seperatists in Episode II before finally being killed by Obi-Wan in Episode III, things would have been a lot better on that front. Or perhaps introducing Darth Tyranus in TPM (Which would have been cool, since he trained Qui-Gon).

2) Lack of a strong group dynamic. In the OT, Luke, Leia, Han, Chewie, Lando, R2 and Threepio all knew and interacted with each other in various ways. TPM was able to capture this feeling with Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Anakin, Padme, R2 and Jar Jar, but it completely dissapeared after that. It became a "Chain" as opposed to a "net." Padme interacted only with Anakin (which made her seem somewhat like a 5th wheel), who interacted only with her and Obi-Wan, who interacted only with Anakin and Yoda/Mace. See? No group, there. It really hurt the feel and cohesion of the movie. Instead of watching seperate parts of one story that weaved through each other from time to time, it felt like we were watching several completely seperate stories that coalesced into one at the very end.

3) Lack of a strong lead actor and lead actress. Covered above.

4) Lack of beliavability. Anakin's fall to the dark side was WAAAY too rushed. It just felt like "OK, just killed my master in a spur of the moment event. Guess I'm evil now, so I'll go and slaughter everyone I ever knew and loved. I'll even kill the kids so I seem even more evil. Oh... maybe I should be a bit remorseful too, so I guess I'll go off and cry for a bit."

5) Lack of strong space battles. TPM's space battle wasn't bad, but it didn't capture the epic feeling of either of the Death Star Battles. RotS's space scene was ho-hum at best. The whole thing felt like it was on rails a la Starfox.

6) Narrow-view of the Star Wars universe. Again, aside from TPM, the entire series is focused almost entirely on the Jedi and their way of life. In the OT, we had a smuggler, a rebel leader, a Jedi and an business man. Each of these gave us a seperate view of the galaxy. In the PT, it really just felt like you were following an upper-class noble around and had no chance to get a feel for some of the "cooler" parts of the galaxy like the Mos Eisley cantina.

7) We knew the story already. This really couldn't be helped, but it did hurt the movies.

8) Lacked the epic feeling of the OT. In the Battle of Yavin, the fate of the Rebellion was in the hands of a handful of rebel pilots hurtling towards the seemingly-unstoppable might of the Death Star. At the Battle of Endor, the destiny of the entire Galaxy sat on a razors edge as the forces of good and evil clashed in a final battle of titanic proportions. There were no such instances in the PT. Just a sudden takeover by the Empire and a slaughter of the Jedi. Maybe if the Republic had at least put up a fight before it got taken over, things would have been better.

I agree with this. The thing about the PT is that, while I get the whole theme of democracy dying with thunderous applause, it would have been nice if the Jedi Order died against the Sith Empire and Vader and Sidious were all that was left of the Sith after the war. It would have set the stage for the OT in an awesome light.

There is no Sith Empire... only two there are...

Originally posted by queeq
There is no Sith Empire... only two there are...
I thought you said we weren't allowed to post on old topis :-S
And why not anyway?

But I am... I AM THE MODERATOR WOOOHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.... POWEERRRRR .... UNLIMITED POWEEERRRRRRRRRRRR...

Oh sorry...

Originally posted by Generic Hero
1) Lack of a strong villain. Unlike the OT, where Vader was the man to fear for the entire trilogy, the PT had no strong villain figure. Palpatine just sat in the background scheming and plotting never really doing anything evil until halfway through RotS. Every time we meet a strong villain character (Maul, Dooku, Grevious), they die very quickly and we never get to a point where they could be recognized and feared. If Lucas had let Maul escape after he killed Qui-Gon instead of being killed, then had him lead the seperatists in Episode II before finally being killed by Obi-Wan in Episode III, things would have been a lot better on that front. Or perhaps introducing Darth Tyranus in TPM (Which would have been cool, since he trained Qui-Gon).

2) Lack of a strong group dynamic. In the OT, Luke, Leia, Han, Chewie, Lando, R2 and Threepio all knew and interacted with each other in various ways. TPM was able to capture this feeling with Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Anakin, Padme, R2 and Jar Jar, but it completely dissapeared after that. It became a "Chain" as opposed to a "net." Padme interacted only with Anakin (which made her seem somewhat like a 5th wheel), who interacted only with her and Obi-Wan, who interacted only with Anakin and Yoda/Mace. See? No group, there. It really hurt the feel and cohesion of the movie. Instead of watching seperate parts of one story that weaved through each other from time to time, it felt like we were watching several completely seperate stories that coalesced into one at the very end.

3) Lack of a strong lead actor and lead actress. Covered above.

4) Lack of beliavability. Anakin's fall to the dark side was WAAAY too rushed. It just felt like "OK, just killed my master in a spur of the moment event. Guess I'm evil now, so I'll go and slaughter everyone I ever knew and loved. I'll even kill the kids so I seem even more evil. Oh... maybe I should be a bit remorseful too, so I guess I'll go off and cry for a bit."

5) Lack of strong space battles. TPM's space battle wasn't bad, but it didn't capture the epic feeling of either of the Death Star Battles. RotS's space scene was ho-hum at best. The whole thing felt like it was on rails a la Starfox.

6) Narrow-view of the Star Wars universe. Again, aside from TPM, the entire series is focused almost entirely on the Jedi and their way of life. In the OT, we had a smuggler, a rebel leader, a Jedi and an business man. Each of these gave us a seperate view of the galaxy. In the PT, it really just felt like you were following an upper-class noble around and had no chance to get a feel for some of the "cooler" parts of the galaxy like the Mos Eisley cantina.

7) We knew the story already. This really couldn't be helped, but it did hurt the movies.

8) Lacked the epic feeling of the OT. In the Battle of Yavin, the fate of the Rebellion was in the hands of a handful of rebel pilots hurtling towards the seemingly-unstoppable might of the Death Star. At the Battle of Endor, the destiny of the entire Galaxy sat on a razors edge as the forces of good and evil clashed in a final battle of titanic proportions. There were no such instances in the PT. Just a sudden takeover by the Empire and a slaughter of the Jedi. Maybe if the Republic had at least put up a fight before it got taken over, things would have been better.

Like the other guy i agree with this some what. I do believe Maul should of survived till the begining of EP3 where anakin can kill him. But at the end of EP1 obiwan in order to beat maul gave into the darkside but then pulls himself back (like Luke in ROTJ) and he could of just kicked Maul down the shaft. where he would survive.
Anakin should of been about 18 when they found him, then do the whole thing with he's too old etc. obi wan sides with quigon that anakin should be trained and when quigon dies he trains him. Show more interaction with anakin and obiwan with anakin being held back. i don't think they would even need padme dying as a motivation for him to turn the emperor could just do that on his own and turn him cause he does have evil in him. then EP3 we could have vader hunt down and destroy most the jedis With help from Boba Fett (no disintigrations) with the final battle between obiwan and vader as in ep3. padme and anakin can still get married but he cuts the connection as soon as he turns. padme gives birth but anakin has NO knowledge she is even pregnant. luke is taken to tatooine and leia goes to Alderan with padme where sometime between ep3 and ep4 she dies, when leia is 2-4.

I think Lucas did the prequels the way he did them just so he could make the clone wars cartoon and CGI show and also the live action TV show (if we ever see it)

Originally posted by darthmaul1
Like the other guy i agree with this some what. I do believe Maul should of survived till the begining of EP3 where anakin can kill him. But at the end of EP1 obiwan in order to beat maul gave into the darkside but then pulls himself back (like Luke in ROTJ) and he could of just kicked Maul down the shaft. where he would survive.
Anakin should of been about 18 when they found him, then do the whole thing with he's too old etc. obi wan sides with quigon that anakin should be trained and when quigon dies he trains him. Show more interaction with anakin and obiwan with anakin being held back. i don't think they would even need padme dying as a motivation for him to turn the emperor could just do that on his own and turn him cause he does have evil in him. then EP3 we could have vader hunt down and destroy most the jedis With help from Boba Fett (no disintigrations) with the final battle between obiwan and vader as in ep3. padme and anakin can still get married but he cuts the connection as soon as he turns. padme gives birth but anakin has NO knowledge she is even pregnant. luke is taken to tatooine and leia goes to Alderan with padme where sometime between ep3 and ep4 she dies, when leia is 2-4.

I think Lucas did the prequels the way he did them just so he could make the clone wars cartoon and CGI show and also the live action TV show (if we ever see it)
I think you've got some good points in there. I certainly agree on Leis staying with Padme. And I think the "He's too old thing" would make far more sence if he was about 18 + I think it as well as soime of the other things that you mentioned would fit better with what we hear or see in the OT.

But the thing is: Lucas changed his mind about a lot of things while making the PT. And he cannot fully hide that from the OT.

Originally posted by queeq
But the thing is: Lucas changed his mind about a lot of things while making the PT. And he cannot fully hide that from the OT.

You mean because somethings said in the OT don't jive with the PT?
I think this is the case because even though Lucas is the creator he does NOT know all the ins and outs of his own creation. There is a clip of Seth Mcfarlane invterviewing Lucas about certain things in the OT and Seth humms a few notes from the snow battle on hoth (which to most fans would be easy to pick out.) Lucas identified it as the throne room scene in EP IV!

Well, those are little details.

My point is, Lucas tends to say he always had the entire saga in his head for like ever... We all know this isn't true. His own authorised Making Of.. books explain that. For instance, they didn't decide until developing ESB that Vader was Luke's father.

But cleary Lucas changed his mind about a lot of things since making the OT. He wanted things to be different and had to rather forcefully make that match the OT.

Originally posted by queeq
Well, those are little details.

My point is, Lucas tends to say he always had the entire saga in his head for like ever... We all know this isn't true. His own authorised Making Of.. books explain that. For instance, they didn't decide until developing ESB that Vader was Lucas's father.

But cleary Lucas changed his mind about a lot of things since making the OT. He wanted things to be different and had to rather forcefully make that match the OT.
Darth Vader is Lucas's father? That explains why Lucas makes so many changes. BTW, seriously now; I don't really have a problem with the changes, but I just like to take the micky, coz so many people don't. Anyway, how do you know he hadn't decided Vader was Lukes father? When Obi Wan came to tell Luke how his father died, he looked quite un-comfertibal before he told him. That makes more sence if his father was Vader.

Read The Making of The Empire Strikes Back. It says it all. This is an authorized book by Lucasfilm, for which the Lucasfilm Archives have been carefully examined. It has very interesting tidbits... like Lucas toying with the idea of a prophecy, of Luke being the chosen one.

Since ESB was the second act of a three act story, they needed a twist. The uncomfortable look of OB1 is just now so interpreted and it works great.

On the other hand, if you have to tell a kid his dad was killed by your own apprentice whom in your arrigance you failed to train well... that would definitely make you feel uncomfortable, I'd say.

And taking the mickey is great. But seriously, The MAking of Star Wars and The Making of ESB (and prolly The Making of ROTJ next year) are great and wonderful books. Coffee table size, great pictures and an honest account of the most ground breaking movie series of all time. They're not cheap but they should be standard reading material for every SW fan. It kinda makes you rise above all the silly opinions and above Lucas comments these days how things went. The books sometimes tell a slightly different story.

When lucas started the PT he should of employed a group of fan boys like us so at least everything would of fit together. The only thing I don't think they could of prevented would be showing that Darth vader I Luke and leias father. So the ep5 surprise would be gone no matter what u do.

No fanboys... he should have employed one or two great script writers.