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OK, first, Socialism is not Communism.

second, which do you think is best? Capitalism, (making poeple work for their money) Socialism, (helping eachother) Communism, (keeping everyone the same).

Personally I am for Socialism. thumbup

I would say capitalism because alot of people are lazy and don't want to work and Socialism helping anyone out in need such as making a rich person help a poor person. I would say communism instead of socialism but you have to have the right people working it or else the system will become another Russia or north Korea instead.

A mixed system in general, however I am strongly in favor of a Capitalistic society with some Socialism thrown in to the pot.

Originally posted by lord xyz
OK, first, Socialism is not Communism.

second, which do you think is best? Capitalism, (making poeple work for their money) Socialism, (helping eachother) Communism, (keeping everyone the same).

Personally I am for Socialism. thumbup

None of the above.

A Utopian society would be my pick. It would probably have all of the best elements of all 3 of the ones mentioned above and then some. Unfortunately I don't think we're going to see one anytime soon..

At least not until the world is completely rid of evil and all that Jazz..

Originally posted by Gay Guy
None of the above.

A Utopian society would be my pick. It would probably have all of the best elements of all 3 of the ones mentioned above and then some. Unfortunately I don't think we're going to see one anytime soon..

At least not until the world is completely rid of evil and all that Jazz.. Put the joint down, and step away from the smoke.

I would say which is the best Political Theory instead of "democracy". Quite frankly I'm sticking to Capitalism. However, Communisn is a very noble theory on the principles of Workers and Labor.

Capitalism is a financial system... It works well in a dictatorship as well. So I don't understand the question.

Originally posted by Soleran
A mixed system in general, however I am strongly in favor of a Capitalistic society with some Socialism thrown in to the pot.

I tend to lean this way. However, the recent actions by Gates and Buffet have been very encouraging, such that "Benevolent Capitalism" may not be an oxymoron.

Originally posted by The Omega
Capitalism is a financial system... It works well in a dictatorship as well. So I don't understand the question.

the other 2, while being political movements also have distinct and different financial systems

socialism being robin hood style make the rich pay more and the poor pay less...unfortunately it relies on capitalism working to succeed while at the same time discouraging entrepreneurship and thus shoots itself in the foot

and communism means everyone gets the same no matter which job they do which means their is no incentive for people to bother trying to push themselves to achieve in more difficult careers...why bother trying to be a doctor if you can get the same for sweeping the streets

(-sighs-)

communism was a brilliant idea except for the fact that it is impossible. But if it was possible to do it is sorta a utopia type of life.

Capitalism: It works somewhat... sort of... I mean look at the US.

Socialism: Would work if we were not all selfish bastards and personally I take Ayn Rand's view on this because altruism is a myth.

Communism: Noble idea... but it ain't happening.

So yea I go with Capitalism... at least it's somewhat working. It's a far sight from perfect, but hey? This ain't a perfect world.

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/6797/sign7bz.png

Meritocracy.

Originally posted by lord xyz
OK, first, Socialism is not Communism.

second, which do you think is best? Capitalism, (making poeple work for their money) Socialism, (helping eachother) Communism, (keeping everyone the same).

Personally I am for Socialism. thumbup

Is it just me or does that link make the american left seem actually communist? I've always thought that they leaned toward socialism and marxism, but Communism? I thought that was pretty much taboo in the US.

Originally posted by docb77
Is it just me or does that link make the american left seem actually communist? I've always thought that they leaned toward socialism and marxism, but Communism? I thought that was pretty much taboo in the US.


I didn't take the time to click on the link, but I wouldn't call the leftists here in the US Communists, at their very worst I'd call them progressive socialists. And those on the extreme left I'd call radical progressive socialists. The current western capitalist societies that many of us live in do indeed have a whole heck of a lot of socialist policies thrown into them. Can you imagine what it would be like if it didn't? I'm thinking we'd have a system that would be somewhat reminiscent to anarchism.

Isn't Socalism an integral part to Nazism ?

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
I would say which is the best Political Theory instead of "democracy". Quite frankly I'm sticking to Capitalism. However, Communisn is a very noble theory on the principles of Workers and Labor.


We don't really have true Capitalism here in the states though man. It's more or less controlled and restricted Capitalism. And very heavily controlled at that. There's all different types of trade laws which prevent any particular privately owned business from becoming too powerful.

Originally posted by grey fox
Isn't Socalism an integral part to Nazism ?

Yeah but it's also an integral part of the version of Capitalism the US uses as well. Think about it. They have a progressive tax system. Welfare programs for the poor. And the US government incorporates all different types of Socialist ideas into it's health care systems.

The only thing non-socialist about the US is that the government does encourage free competition between businesses, and isn't usually directly involved in private business affairs, however, it does regulate the way in which businesses can conduct themselves in a "free" market.

Originally posted by Gay Guy
We don't really have true Capitalism here in the states though man. It's more or less controlled and restricted Capitalism. And very heavily controlled at that. There's all different types of trade laws which prevent any particular privately owned business from becoming too powerful.

You obviously havn't been paying attention lately. What do you think all these free trade laws and treaties are about? Massive outsourcing and the destruction of American jobs in the name of free enterprise. It also means national governments have less control. And as for antitrust laws, they seem to count for nothing anymore. All you ever hear about in business news these days are buyouts and mergers. Less competition...more corporate power. One reason we aren't converting to alternative fuels very fast is because of the massive power and influence of the oil lobby. Corporations ARE the power in the USA.


To answer the thread question I would say a balance between capitalism and socialism. Free trade should be extremely limited and it should be almost impossible for companies to buy anything. It should also be much easier for workers to unionize. There's no reason a CEO needs to make 400 times what a rank and file worker does.

Originally posted by Darth_Erebus
You obviously havn't been paying attention lately. What do you think all these free trade laws and treaties are about? Massive outsourcing and the destruction of American jobs in the name of free enterprise. It also means national governments have less control. And as for antitrust laws, they seem to count for nothing anymore. All you ever hear about in business news these days are buyouts and mergers. Less competition...more corporate power. One reason we aren't converting to alternative fuels very fast is because of the massive power and influence of the oil lobby. Corporations ARE the power in the USA.


I agree with you. I was just making the point that the US system does indeed have many Socialist policies integrated into it.

Originally posted by lord xyz
OK, first, Socialism is not Communism.

second, which do you think is best? Capitalism, (making poeple work for their money) Socialism, (helping eachother) Communism, (keeping everyone the same).

Personally I am for Socialism. thumbup

I'd say you're good to put in socialism, but this poll is sort of hollow, isnt it? What about liberalism, anarchism, social darwinism, maoism, fascism etc?

Capitalism...maybe weak socialism....

Originally posted by Bardock42
Capitalism...maybe weak socialism.... I'd say Socialism is a sort of, 'smart communism'. Or half-capitalism, half-communism.

Originally posted by rickyduck
I'd say you're good to put in socialism, but this poll is sort of hollow, isnt it? What about liberalism, anarchism, social darwinism, maoism, fascism etc? Yeah, I guess you're right.

Originally posted by lord xyz
I'd say Socialism is a sort of, 'smart communism'. Or half-capitalism, half-communism.

Yeah, I guess you're right.

Socialism isnt really Smart Communism, or half/half, its on a branch of its own. If you're thinking like that, communism is advanced socialism..

Originally posted by rickyduck
Socialism isnt really Smart Communism, or half/half, its on a branch of its own. If you're thinking like that, communism is advanced socialism.. hmm

I never read of solutions from you Deano just people analyzing "problems." Thats very easy to see a problem, its the people that attack the problems with solutions that make things happen.

Maybe thats why your sources tend to not have much action behind them?

Originally posted by Soleran
I never read of solutions from you Deano just people analyzing "problems." Thats very easy to see a problem, its the people that attack the problems with solutions that make things happen.

Maybe thats why your sources tend to not have much action behind them?

Exactly, Deano your argument is weak..

Moving on...






































Economy-wise, I have to say, Capitalism has been the best so far. I mean, just look at People's Democratic Republic of Korea (North Korea) and The Korean Republic (South Korea). South is a LOT better than North.

Originally posted by lord xyz
Moving on...






































Economy-wise, I have to say, Capitalism has been the best so far. I mean, just look at People's Democratic Republic of Korea (North Korea) and The Korean Republic (South Korea). South is a LOT better than North.

What is there to Capitalism besides economy? Well..I could think of one..but ..not really...

Originally posted by Bardock42
What is there to Capitalism besides economy? Well..I could think of one..but ..not really... There is the fact that Capitalism has the most parties when it comes to an election. Bringing a lot of variety.

Originally posted by lord xyz
There is the fact that Capitalism has the most parties when it comes to an election. Bringing a lot of variety.

Are you an idiot or something?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Are you an idiot or something? No, I just wanted to say that.

Originally posted by lord xyz
No, I just wanted to say that.

Besides it being wrong?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Besides it being wrong? Yeah ,yeah, I know.

Although, Communism does only have one party.

Originally posted by Arcana
Capitalism: It works somewhat... sort of... I mean look at the US.

Socialism: Would work if we were not all selfish bastards and personally I take Ayn Rand's view on this because altruism is a myth.

Communism: Noble idea... but it ain't happening.

So yea I go with Capitalism... at least it's somewhat working. It's a far sight from perfect, but hey? This ain't a perfect world.

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/6797/sign7bz.png

I'd question how well capitalism works... Look at the world in general. Capitalism cannot help but eventually create monopoly-like mega-corps with too much power - and power should be with governments, not with corporations who're not obliged to abide by democratic rules.

Socialism is a good idea. The way people act is a response to the system they live in... so, yeah, capitalism generates selfish bastards because that is what "pays off".

Communism has never happened yet. As a political system it requires worldwide Communism. When Russia went "communistic" it was immediately attacked by 16 foreign states, which is one of the reasons real communism never happened. Not in the uSSR, not in North Korea (goodness, that's a dictatorship) nor is there communism in Cuba. The uSSR functioned on state-capitalism.

I disagree, capitalism doesn't creeate selfishness...it finds it in people...and tries to use it for the benefit of the best...and with that to all of humankind....well..at least to the best...

And I disagree with you, Bardock. Capitalism thrives on exploitation at its core. That's just the way it works. Make a profit. Capitalism can't FIND anything in anyone... It's merely an economic system that will not necessarly benefit the best - certainly the greediest.
Look at Enron.

So I'm not too comfortable with Capitalism, because it generates monopolies and furthers traits like greed.

Well actually, that was just a figure of speech, capitalism is a most natural system though.

And well..what's soo bad about monopolies..besides...how do you know that, did it really happen?

it really all depends on how u feel and what ur point of veiws are on anything and or everything in one way or another they all work.
but i voted capitalism, and im french, so what the hell do i know?

Socialism of course.

As its already been mentioned Communism never happened. In order to happen it does need to be global.

But im sure Communism would be an interesting system, and perhaps work. I doubt in our lifetimes, but in the future, Im fairly positive, true communism might happen...

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well actually, that was just a figure of speech, capitalism is a most natural system though.

Natural? Why?

Originally posted by Bardock42
And well..what's soo bad about monopolies..besides...how do you know that, did it really happen?

I’m hoping the first question is rhetorical, right? How I know that? Because that’s how capitalism works, Bardock. The company making the most profits will start buying up or outsourcing its competition – which is NOT for the benefit of the customer – until one giant technically dominates the market (need I say Microsoft? Who’s the richest man in the USA?).
This will automatically happen. Larger corporations will fuse/merge/buy up the competition and grow in size.
Take a look at Forbes list of companies. Toyato Motors is worth 175 billion dollars (assets worth 227 billion dollars!). Nestlé is worth 113 billion dollars, Pepsi co is worth 97 billion dollars.
Only 26 countries in a world had a 2005-BNP larger than what Toyota Motors is worth.

Lil Bitchiness> One can always hope, huh?

Originally posted by The Omega
And I disagree with you, Bardock. Capitalism thrives on exploitation at its core. That's just the way it works. Make a profit. Capitalism can't FIND anything in anyone... It's merely an economic system that will not necessarly benefit the best - certainly the greediest.
Look at Enron.

So I'm not too comfortable with Capitalism, because it generates monopolies and furthers traits like greed. You're thinking of Conservatisum. Which I agree, is selfish and wrong and shit.

We often hear this claptrap about how capitalism fails because successful companies will become unassailable.

It is nonsense. Competition is king, in which respect it is ironic that you mention Pepsi. How many of the top 100 companies from a century ago even still exist today? Now compare that to political systems- it took wars to unseat them, and far more are intact than not.

Microsoft got where it was- beating a crowded market- by providing better service. For all the whining of the geek crowd, computing is more accessible to people now than it would have otherwise been, and because of Microsoft. It is a sector where a single format is absolutely desirable. That happens sometimes- it happened with video tapes, and now many are unhappy because the reverse is happening with DVD formats.

Capitalism is the best system there ever was. In depending on greed it succeeds. Other systems depend on the good will of humans, and hence fail.

I'm proud to be a Capitalist Pig! goof

Originally posted by Ushgarak
We often hear this claptrap about how capitalism fails because successful companies will become unassailable.

It is nonsense. Competition is king, in which respect it is ironic that you mention Pepsi. How many of the top 100 companies from a century ago even still exist today? Now compare that to political systems- it took wars to unseat them, and far more are intact than not.

Microsoft got where it was- beating a crowded market- by providing better service. For all the whining of the geek crowd, computing is more accessible to people now than it would have otherwise been, and because of Microsoft. It is a sector where a single format is absolutely desirable. That happens sometimes- it happened with video tapes, and now many are unhappy because the reverse is happening with DVD formats.

Capitalism is the best system there ever was. In depending on greed it succeeds. Other systems depend on the good will of humans, and hence fail. You bring up a good point Ush. However, you seem to forget that Capitalism causes unfairness towards society. The same with Communism.

Socialism doesn't.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Capitalism is the best system there ever was. In depending on greed it succeeds. Other systems depend on the good will of humans, and hence fail.

We often hear how the biggest companies of course must be the best, and those that provides the best services. Why? Because they are the biggest and has the most advertising money??
And the claim that humans are inherently greedy is as stupid as claiming that humans are inherently evil. Other systems do not - as you seem to think - depend on the good of humans. Merely sense!

If capitalism (and thereby globalization) is such a grand succes why do 16 children die each minute of starvation and hunger-related diseases?

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
I'm proud to be a Capitalist Pig! goof

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Capitalism is the best system there ever was. In depending on greed it succeeds. Other systems depend on the good will of humans, and hence fail.



A system which encourages human beings to act animalistic and horde everything they have for themselves is definitely better than any system that plays upon compassion, mercy, kindness, giving, and righteousness.

I also think it makes sense for only 5 percent of a population, to possess nearly 3/4 of all wealth in a nation. Because we all know that most people in Capitalist societies have acquired all of the wealth on their own, and in no way have inherited that wealth from their very wealthy progenitors.

So my point is this, if you were born into a rich family then you are entitled to everything you own. And if you are born into a poor one, you are not entitled to any of what the rich man has.

So my message to the poor man is this, you best work your a$$ off for the rest of your life..and maybe, if you work hard enough for the Rich man who owns everything and to his satisfaction, then maybe..just maybe.. the rich man will give you a little of what he has. This is a fair system that personally..I believe works out well for everyone, particularly the poor man.

Originally posted by The Omega
- depend on the good of humans. Merely sense!

If not from the good of other people where does the "money" come from, especially if it isn't all created equally, more importantly who distributes this money?



Is this a world wide number? If it isn't then why isn't socialism working the way some people would expect with the respective countries that follow that econimic policy?

Originally posted by lord xyz
You bring up a good point Ush. However, You seem to forget that Capitalism causes unfairness towards society. The same with Communism.

Socialism doesn't.


A little tip, cause I like you, just...don't reply in this thread again.

Originally posted by The Omega
Natural? Why?

Because humans are selfish. And capitalism makes the most out of the selfishness of humans. Basically. Then again it is also a system that is just so logical, so pure...so true..so easy...a baby would be able to "invent" it...I don't like the word "invent", I think capitalism basically was there as soon as there were two self aware beings on this planet.



Originally posted by The Omega
I’m hoping the first question is rhetorical, right? How I know that? Because that’s how capitalism works, Bardock. The company making the most profits will start buying up or outsourcing its competition – which is NOT for the benefit of the customer – until one giant technically dominates the market (need I say Microsoft? Who’s the richest man in the USA?).
This will automatically happen. Larger corporations will fuse/merge/buy up the competition and grow in size.
Take a look at Forbes list of companies. Toyato Motors is worth 175 billion dollars (assets worth 227 billion dollars!). Nestlé is worth 113 billion dollars, Pepsi co is worth 97 billion dollars.
Only 26 countries in a world had a 2005-BNP larger than what Toyota Motors is worth.

For the first thing...not really, a monopoly must have worked really well for some time. You don't just become a monopoly for being evil and ruthless...everyone can be that..You need to be smart and imaginative..and just one of the best to begin with. I guess some sort of luck is part of it as well, but not most of it. So basically to become a monopoly You have to have been good in the first place, so I don't see the big deal with it.

Now, thing is, monopolies don't happen. Not one of those companies You mention is a monopoly.
Even Microsoft got plenty of competition in the fields they participate in. Take Windows for example, sure a very good and user friendly environment, but go ahead, get Linux if You are good enough to use it, I am not, but there are people who swear it is better...well, I like to click on a buttin and have Internet, Windows does that for me, that's why I buy there products. Good thing I live in a Capitalist country where I can decide to buy the product best suited for me.


For the others...Pepsi? Hmm, there is this other company that comes to mind...damn, what am I thinking of..nah, You are probably right, Pepsi is a monopoly, I love their Sprite.....

Seriously, are You arguing that Capitalism greates a huge amount of worth, one that couldn't be matched by any other system, which is shown by the existence of big companies? Is it that? Then yeah, I agree. Where is the bad part?

And this will automatically happen....although it never happened, yet?

Originally posted by The Omega
We often hear how the biggest companies of course must be the best, and those that provides the best services. Why? Because they are the biggest and has the most advertising money??
And the claim that humans are inherently greedy is as stupid as claiming that humans are inherently evil. Other systems do not - as you seem to think - depend on the good of humans. Merely sense!

If capitalism (and thereby globalization) is such a grand succes why do 16 children die each minute of starvation and hunger-related diseases?

Humans are selfish though. I mean...they just are. That's nothing bad....but they are.

And how is communism exactly going to make people work if they hardly get anything in return? I see two way, and one of them you deny...the other was shown by all systems that claimed to be communist so far...really ****ing great I have to agree.


As for the children, well I guess they die because no one gives a ****...I know I don't. Because humans are selfish. But if your selfishness makes you think it would be a good thing to help those children, go ahead, capitalism won't stop you.

Also, it is hardly capitalism fault that those children die, they would die anyways, capitalism just happens to be there, because it is such a natural system.

Capitalism provides roadways for trade and commerce. It's what makes any nation increase in richness. Why do 16 children die each minute of starvation and hunger-related diseases? Because their own corrupt and tyranical rulers and their relatives/friends live in grand masions. They don't open themselves to capitalist ideas because they know it will harpen their lifestyle. They know that by allowing capitalism in it will boost others to become prosperous. They don't want that. They want to keep the richness for themselves. So yes, that's why 16 children die each minute in the world.

Capitalism causes problems from the start.

Think of it like this. (Not meant to be accurate in any way.)

Year 1:

Guy 1: $9,000,000
Guy 2: $6,500,000
Guy 3: $5,500,000
Guy 4: $2,000,000
Guy 5: $500,000

Year 2.

Guy 1: $10,000,000
Guy 2: $7,000,000
Guy 3: $5,000,000
Guy 4: $1,500,000
Guy 5: $0

Year 3.

Guy 1: $12,000,000
Guy 2: $7,000,000
Guy 3: $4,000,000
Guy 4: $500,000
Guy 5: $0

Year 4.

Guy 1: $15,000,000
Guy 2: $6,000,000
Guy 3: $2,500,000
Guy 4: $0
Guy 5: $0

Year 5.

Guy 1: $19,000,000
Guy 2: $4,500,000
Guy 3: $0
Guy 4: $0
Guy 5: $0

Year 6.

Guy 1: $23,000,000
Guy 2: $500,000
Guy 3: $0
Guy 4: $0
Guy 5: $0

Survival of the strongest.

socialisim is the one that will work the longest and probably the best, personally i think communisim is one of those totally brilliant ideas...that will never work. there is always gonna be someone who wants to be #1 and that cant be in communisim.

"From a distance, a diamond, up-close, a tear"

A mixed economic system would be best, but democracy is not an economic system

Originally posted by lord xyz
Capitalism causes problems from the start.

Think of it like this. (Not meant to be accurate in any way.)

Year 1:

Guy 1: $9,000,000
Guy 2: $6,500,000
Guy 3: $5,500,000
Guy 4: $2,000,000
Guy 5: $500,000

Year 2.

Guy 1: $10,000,000
Guy 2: $7,000,000
Guy 3: $5,000,000
Guy 4: $1,500,000
Guy 5: $0

Year 3.

Guy 1: $12,000,000
Guy 2: $7,000,000
Guy 3: $4,000,000
Guy 4: $500,000
Guy 5: $0

Year 4.

Guy 1: $15,000,000
Guy 2: $6,000,000
Guy 3: $2,500,000
Guy 4: $0
Guy 5: $0

Year 5.

Guy 1: $19,000,000
Guy 2: $4,500,000
Guy 3: $0
Guy 4: $0
Guy 5: $0

Year 6.

Guy 1: $23,000,000
Guy 2: $500,000
Guy 3: $0
Guy 4: $0
Guy 5: $0

Survival of the strongest. Originally posted by Bardock42
A little tip, cause I like you, just...don't reply in this thread again.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Humans are selfish though. I mean...they just are. That's nothing bad....but they are.

Humans are MANY things. We have needs that we seek to meet… is this what you mean by selfish? But humans are also capable of donating money to charity, doctors travel to war zones to help, people spend time collecting money and clothes to help people they have never met. We take time to listen to friends who’re in need… So we are MANY things… Why should our need to fulfil basic needs be what determines our financial system?

Originally posted by Bardock42
And how is communism exactly going to make people work if they hardly get anything in return? I see two way, and one of them you deny...the other was shown by all systems that claimed to be communist so far...really ****ing great I have to agree.

What makes you think Communism is built on people not getting anything? How could any system work, if we did not get our needs met? I do not understand what you mean by “I see two way, and one of them you deny…” Communism cannot work on a national scale (read up on what exactly happened to the USSR when it was first formed).

Originally posted by Bardock42
As for the children, well I guess they die because no one gives a ****...I know I don't. Because humans are selfish. But if your selfishness makes you think it would be a good thing to help those children, go ahead, capitalism won't stop you.

So a financial system that supports “not giving a ****” is considered good and the best by you? Are you proud of your indifference towards people who suffer because of the “great” system of capitalism? I asked you if you consider a system where 16 children die each minute as a success?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Also, it is hardly capitalism fault that those children die, they would die anyways, capitalism just happens to be there, because it is such a natural system.

It is indeed the fault of the financial system that those children die. If we distributed goods better (and the UN has calculated that the world can sustain 10 billion people, where no one would need to starve and live in poverty if we did that), removed toll barriers and the delusion that it’s ok for extremely wealthy to consume more than they need, these children would have had a chance.

Originally posted by tabby999
socialisim is the one that will work the longest and probably the best, personally i think communisim is one of those totally brilliant ideas...that will never work. there is always gonna be someone who wants to be #1 and that cant be in communisim.

"From a distance, a diamond, up-close, a tear"

Why do you think that Communism requires everyone to be THE SAME? Different people have different skills and different things they’re good at.
Who’d you rather have surgery performed by? A surgeon who’s “in it” because he really, truly wants to help and heal… or the surgeon who’s “in it” to earn big money?

Originally posted by The Omega
Humans are MANY things. We have needs that we seek to meet… is this what you mean by selfish? But humans are also capable of donating money to charity, doctors travel to war zones to help, people spend time collecting money and clothes to help people they have never met. We take time to listen to friends who’re in need… So we are MANY things… Why should our need to fulfil basic needs be what determines our financial system?


Nah, the thing is all this stuff is done for some sort of selfish reason. And that's okay, if one enjoys giving for charity that's great, if one enjoys helping starving children, sweet, but it is done for only their own good. That it happens to help another is not what makes them do that. Their own better feelings is what does.


Originally posted by The Omega
What makes you think Communism is built on people not getting anything? How could any system work, if we did not get our needs met? I do not understand what you mean by “I see two way, and one of them you deny…” Communism cannot work on a national scale (read up on what exactly happened to the USSR when it was first formed).


that's where it comes in that I said "hardly". There is a lot less wealth created by communism and all people, regardless of their skill or usefulness get equal amounts of good in return...or even worse you might get more for some weird social reasons like being a single mother.


Two ways:

1. Idealistic, people behave the way the System wants it because they all the the apparent greatness in it. Won't happen.

2. People are forced. Through punishment or conditioning or whatever. But they are forced. No free will, bullshit system.

Give me a 3rd one if you can, I don't see it.


Originally posted by The Omega
So a financial system that supports “not giving a ****” is considered good and the best by you? Are you proud of your indifference towards people who suffer because of the “great” system of capitalism? I asked you if you consider a system where 16 children die each minute as a success?


It doesn't support it. It just gives everyone the freedom. And well, people generally don't "give a ****". You need to be particular well conditioned or on the receiving side to "give a ****" about others.
The 16 children are hardly a problem, so yes, I am certainly able to describe a system that has 16 children die each minute as a success. By the way, are those only children in capitalist countries?

But I give you that, i could see the point in a sort of social welfare...a slim one obviously, that couldn't do much harm to the advantages of the system but still make sure that everyone has a chance. After all that's what capitalism would be about (like the precious communism never really happened) equal chances for people.

Originally posted by The Omega
It is indeed the fault of the financial system that those children die. If we distributed goods better (and the UN has calculated that the world can sustain 10 billion people, where no one would need to starve and live in poverty if we did that), removed toll barriers and the delusion that it’s ok for extremely wealthy to consume more than they need, these children would have had a chance.


The world in it's capitalistic state? Well maybe, but guess what as soon as that happens most people won't be bothered to do the work they do now. Or as good.


Originally posted by The Omega
Why do you think that Communism requires everyone to be THE SAME? Different people have different skills and different things they’re good at.
Who’d you rather have surgery performed by? A surgeon who’s “in it” because he really, truly wants to help and heal… or the surgeon who’s “in it” to earn big money?

To get the same. Not be the same.

And I'd prefer the better one, really my retarded cousin Willy (so what I made him up, sue me) wants to be a surgeon really, really bad and I am sure it's all hippy happy and stuff, but nah, give me the guy who knows his shit but wants money any day.

If it was about equally skilled ones, then yeah, I guess that I would prefer the one who wants that job. But that's hardly the case, is it?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Nah, the thing is all this stuff is done for some sort of selfish reason. And that's okay, if one enjoys giving for charity that's great, if one enjoys helping starving children, sweet, but it is done for only their own good. That it happens to help another is not what makes them do that. Their own better feelings is what does.

What I wrote just proves that humans can be MANY things, Bardock. We can be greedy one day, charitable the other. And you do not know what make other people tick. Some people want to help because they want to HELP. That you’re incapable of this is no proof the rest of mankind is like you.
Yes, we constantly hear “It will always be necessary to have leaders”, “People are fundamentally selfish”, and “Some people will always want more than others”. These phrases are just built on the old Christian idea of original sin inherited from Adam and Eve. The idea that there is a fundamental flaw in human nature, which makes true equality and corporation impossible, is an easy way to explain many of the bad things in the world like racism and sexism.
So, what, do you believe in original sin?


Originally posted by Bardock42
that's where it comes in that I said "hardly". There is a lot less wealth created by communism and all people, regardless of their skill or usefulness get equal amounts of good in return...or even worse you might get more for some weird social reasons like being a single mother.

What makes you say a lot less wealth is created in a communist system? How much do you KNOW about communism, Bardock, I’m curious. Have you even read the (in)famous manifesto?


Originally posted by Bardock42
Two ways:

1. Idealistic, people behave the way the System wants it because they all the the apparent greatness in it. Won't happen.

2. People are forced. Through punishment or conditioning or whatever. But they are forced. No free will, bullshit system.

Give me a 3rd one if you can, I don't see it.

What behaviour are you talking about?


Originally posted by Bardock42
It doesn't support it. It just gives everyone the freedom. And well, people generally don't "give a ****". You need to be particular well conditioned or on the receiving side to "give a ****" about others.
The 16 children are hardly a problem, so yes, I am certainly able to describe a system that has 16 children die each minute as a success. By the way, are those only children in capitalist countries?

But the system DOES support by creating equality on a mass-scale. And by actually catering to the greediest of people. Yes, there are greedy people (just look at Enron). But there are many more examples of self-sacrifice, courage and compassion. So I am neither well conditioned nor on the receiving side to care about people dying because of the economic system you consider such a great success. I show you proof (factual death of HUMAN beings) that it can hardly BE considered a success – why not en economic system that caters to the traits in us that’ll make the world better for everyone?
We have globalisation, Bardock, capitalist economy rules the world – from China to the USA.

Originally posted by Bardock42
But I give you that, i could see the point in a sort of social welfare...a slim one obviously, that couldn't do much harm to the advantages of the system but still make sure that everyone has a chance. After all that's what capitalism would be about (like the precious communism never really happened) equal chances for people.

If you don’t give a s*** why would you want social welfare? We have that here in DK along with free hospitals and schools and universities. Our taxes reflect this. Polls keep showing that Danes are willing to pay this kind of taxes to ensure social benefits for everyone. Very selfish of us, huh? You don’t stand much of a chance in a hyper-capitalistic country like the USA if you don’t have money from the beginning. Yes, there are a few examples of people fulfilling the American Dream. There are thousand of examples showing the opposite.
Yes, everyone should have an EQUAL chance…


Originally posted by Bardock42
The world in it's capitalistic state? Well maybe, but guess what as soon as that happens most people won't be bothered to do the work they do now. Or as good.

Bullshit! We all have a need for social relations, and how we behave depend on the circumstances. History shows that. We all have a need to contribute and act in the world. Maybe you’d just sit in a corner and twiddle your thumbs. I’d get bored stiff.


Originally posted by Bardock42
To get the same. Not be the same.

And I'd prefer the better one, really my retarded cousin Willy (so what I made him up, sue me) wants to be a surgeon really, really bad and I am sure it's all hippy happy and stuff, but nah, give me the guy who knows his shit but wants money any day.

If it was about equally skilled ones, then yeah, I guess that I would prefer the one who wants that job. But that's hardly the case, is it?

Okay, what makes you believe that Communism says we ALL get the same? Are you saying all people in the world want the exact same things??
What makes you believe that you can’t find a surgeon who chose his/her profession from a desire and need to heal and help? I’ll hold free lectures in autumn on science. Why? Because I have a drive to bring science and knowledge to other people.

let me do the honour of showing why socialism will never work

behold the Scottish socialist party

http://www.scottishsocialistparty.org/

among their brilliant policies is to increase the national minimum wage to around £7.50 per hour...yet they freely admit that in order to pay for it for the public sector workers...the would have to tax it all back off everyone both in the public and private sector

not to mention the brilliant latest headlines involving members of the SSP

http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/65475.html
http://scotlandtoday.scottishtv.co.uk/content/default.asp?page=s1_1_1&newsid=12093

socialism at its best...

or you could look at Cuba as shining example of socialist ideals...where the average monthly wage is $10us a month...all while castro has amassed a wealth estimated at around $900,000,000us

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Capitalism provides roadways for trade and commerce. It's what makes any nation increase in richness. What about people who are less fortunate?

Originally posted by lord xyz
What about people who are less fortunate?

Yes what about them................

Capitalism because I have a better chance at keeping what I earn and I would have more opportunities to change my financial situation if I needed to.

Socialism is giving into human corruption and basicly telling the governement to run certain parts of your life for you.

Communism is blatintly giving away all human rights you have to the corrupt and power hungry.

Of course Capitalism isnt pefect either but its a hell of a lot better than the alternitives

Originally posted by jaden101
let me do the honour of showing why socialism will never work

behold the Scottish socialist party

http://www.scottishsocialistparty.org/

among their brilliant policies is to increase the national minimum wage to around £7.50 per hour...yet they freely admit that in order to pay for it for the public sector workers...the would have to tax it all back off everyone both in the public and private sector

not to mention the brilliant latest headlines involving members of the SSP

http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/65475.html
http://scotlandtoday.scottishtv.co.uk/content/default.asp?page=s1_1_1&newsid=12093

socialism at its best...

or you could look at Cuba as shining example of socialist ideals...where the average monthly wage is $10us a month...all while castro has amassed a wealth estimated at around $900,000,000us

So do you think that a minimum wage of £7.50 is a bad idea?
Do you think Cuba is technically socialist and/or communist?
Do you think that headlines of what SSP does proves that socialism is impossible?

Originally posted by Grimm22
Socialism is giving into human corruption and basicly telling the governement to run certain parts of your life for you.

Communism is blatintly giving away all human rights you have to the corrupt and power hungry.

Since there has never been working Communism or Socialism in the world, (the USSR was based on state-controlled capitalism), how do you know this?

Escher became a famous painter because of Capitalism. If Holland was Communist, he would've just been in the army. But you can decide whether that's good or bad.

Originally posted by The Omega
Why do you think that Communism requires everyone to be THE SAME? Different people have different skills and different things they’re good at.
Who’d you rather have surgery performed by? A surgeon who’s “in it” because he really, truly wants to help and heal… or the surgeon who’s “in it” to earn big money?

you didn't say anything there. the basic premis of communisim is not working for yourself but for the "greater good" you dont try to stock pile personally wealth, you do things for those around you. a surgon can still be a surgon but he wont be driving a $95.000 car or live in a mansion. its got nothing to do with "who is in it for the money," if communisim worked noone would be in it for the money

Originally posted by tabby999
you didn't say anything there. the basic premis of communisim is not working for yourself but for the "greater good" you dont try to stock pile personally wealth, you do things for those around you. a surgon can still be a surgon but he wont be driving a $95.000 car or live in a mansion. its got nothing to do with "who is in it for the money," if communisim worked noone would be in it for the money

The purpose of any system that eliminates choice is not to achieve a state of "greater good" for the people within it, but instead it is meant to fulfill the self serving agendas and desires of those who have administered it.

Originally posted by The Omega
Since there has never been working Communism or Socialism in the world, (the USSR was based on state-controlled capitalism), how do you know this?

Because im Captain America!

Capitalism = USA

USA = bad

Originally posted by lord xyz
Capitalism = USA

USA = bad

lord xyz = suckage

Originally posted by lord xyz
Capitalism = USA

USA = bad

Originally posted by Bardock42
A little tip, cause I like you, just...don't reply in this thread again.



Oh, and Omega, I will reply sooner or later...I still have to read that stupid Manifesto though...in the original language...

Originally posted by Osaka
Capitalism because I have a better chance at keeping what I earn and I would have more opportunities to change my financial situation if I needed to.

The possibility of you improving your financial situation depends on how much exploitation upper class is willing to exercise over you.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
The possibility of you improving your financial situation depends on how much exploitation upper class is willing to exercise over you.

Bullshit

Originally posted by Bardock42
Bullshit

Oh there is a constructive argument!

Your debating skills are that of a 10 year old. Be gone.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
The possibility of you improving your financial situation depends on how much exploitation upper class is willing to exercise over you.

While that may be true to a certain degree, your comment utterly victimizes and sends a message that no matter what you do, you're stuck and its us vs them.

This maybe true for some people, yet I am also constantly amazed when people stop making excuses and playing the victim role that things can change rather quickly with positive financial results.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Oh there is a constructive argument!

Your debating skills are that of a 10 year old. Be gone.

Haha, I understand you do not enjoy people calling you on the nonsense you write, but that's just actually not true. If you work hard and have good ideas you have every chance to advance your situation. There are still certain rules in place, it's not a total anarchy just a very slim government. And if you have some skill that will be able to make money you will get money, that just doesn't apply to 95% of the people, well, if you are an idiot and can't add anything productive you don't deserve luxuries people that can have.

Originally posted by tabby999
you didn't say anything there. the basic premis of communisim is not working for yourself but for the "greater good" you dont try to stock pile personally wealth, you do things for those around you. a surgon can still be a surgon but he wont be driving a $95.000 car or live in a mansion. its got nothing to do with "who is in it for the money," if communisim worked noone would be in it for the money

Since you seem to be such an expert on the matter, define communism, please

Originally posted by Grimm22
Because im Captain America!

What a mature and useful argument... not. So, please, answer my question.

Originally posted by lord xyz
Capitalism = USA

USA = bad

What nonsense. USA is a geographical location on the Earth, which is neither better nor worse than other geographical locations.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Oh, and Omega, I will reply sooner or later...I still have to read that stupid Manifesto though...in the original language...

Yeah, don't worry, Bardock. The "stupid" manifesto is just a small pamphlet. It shouldn't take too long...
Oh, and btw... I am not saying that whatever Marx and/or Engels wrote is scripture to me. I'm just somewhat appalled at the misconceptions regarding Communism.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Haha, I understand you do not enjoy people calling you on the nonsense you write, but that's just actually not true. If you work hard and have good ideas you have every chance to advance your situation.

So the reason there is poverty and lower classes is merely due to laziness?

Originally posted by The Omega

So the reason there is poverty and lower classes is merely due to laziness?

No, not at all....lack of ability is a much bigger issue. And the matter of fact is that it is harder for people of the "lower class"...they do have less chances. That's why a little bit of social welfare certainly has to be considered,

Originally posted by The Omega
Since there has never been working Communism or Socialism in the world, (the USSR was based on state-controlled capitalism), how do you know this?

Thats what I think. We don´t know how true communism, or socialism will work. What we have today are dictatorships using the name of communism and socialism, but these forms of government are not supposed to work like dictatorships.

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Corruption is directly associated with centralization of power, thats where we must work on. Socialism try to work on that, capitalism do the opposite, it exists to centralize power.

Centralized types of government are usually the most corrupt, thats why there where a lot of corruption in the monarchies, and empires of the ancient times. A way to solve that problem to create a more fair government was the division into three administrative powers(legislative, judiciary, and executive), instead of having just one faction with all the power. It was a decentralization of the power that led us to a more fair form of government like the democracy we have today.

Capitalism works centralizing power in the hands of a few people. In other words, capitalism makes things run towards a dictatorship with these few people left with power being the dictators.

Originally posted by Bardock42
No, not at all....lack of ability is a much bigger issue. And the matter of fact is that it is harder for people of the "lower class"...they do have less chances. That's why a little bit of social welfare certainly has to be considered,

I thought you didn’t give a s***? But ok. So do you see poverty and lower classes as people having “less chance”? Does this mean that Capitalism creates inequality?

Originally posted by Atlantis001
Thats what I think. We don´t know how true communism, or socialism will work. What we have today are dictatorships using the name of communism and socialism, but these forms of government are not supposed to work like dictatorships.

That’s just a fact. Neither the USSR, North Korea or Cuba or other so-called Communist states ever were. The problem/challenge with communism/socialism is that it must be international for it to work.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Atlantis001
Corruption is directly associated with centralization of power, thats where we must work on. Socialism try to work on that, capitalism do the opposite, it exists to centralize power.

Centralized types of government are usually the most corrupt, thats why there where a lot of corruption in the monarchies, and empires of the ancient times. A way to solve that problem to create a more fair government was the division into three administrative powers(legislative, judiciary, and executive), instead of having just one faction with all the power. It was a decentralization of the power that led us to a more fair form of government like the democracy we have today.

Capitalism works centralizing power in the hands of a few people. In other words, capitalism makes things run towards a dictatorship with these few people left with power being the dictators.

I’d have to agree with you there. Since Capitalism is based on profit and money, those who have the most have the most power. This becomes obvious when industrialists and corporative owners can demand “special treatment” from the government, or else they move their business “elsewhere”. This demand is in violation of the democratic “rules of engagement” so to speak.
When a big firm moves it may leave an entire town in financial and unemployed ruins. If it was run co-operatively it would be run and owned by the workers.

Originally posted by The Omega
I thought you didn’t give a s***? But ok. So do you see poverty and lower classes as people having “less chance”? Does this mean that Capitalism creates inequality?

You can't take everything I say serious. Most of it are jokes and/or bullshit. But I hardly lose sleep over some poor kids starving to death, that does not mean that I can't see that since we can we might as well keep them from dying. And it does hardly have anything to do with the economical system I prefer.

And no, Capitalism does not create inequality...the inequality is already there. Or are you seriously saying that everyone in a total anarchist "system" has equal chances? Haha...funny. No you don't.

Autocratic meritocracy.

The vast majority of the human populous are too ignorant or just naturally stupid to be allowed to choose who leads them...

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Autocratic meritocracy.

The vast majority of the human populous are too ignorant or just naturally stupid to be allowed to choose who leads them...

I agree. Education should be more than a priority.

People don´t even know what is better for them, and sometimes the concept of democracy is understood as "everyone should be equal independetly of merit". This way we can have people with no ability and education at all power.

I see my thread has caused a lot of thinking among people! shock

Originally posted by Atlantis001
I agree. Education should be more than a priority.

People don´t even know what is better for them, and sometimes the concept of democracy is understood as "everyone should be equal independetly of merit". This way we can have people with no ability and education at all power.

Everyone tends to believe education all of a sudden makes your society enlightened! Proper application of intelligence/education is useful, education just to educate is fairly wasteful.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Haha, I understand you do not enjoy people calling you on the nonsense you write, but that's just actually not true. If you work hard and have good ideas you have every chance to advance your situation. There are still certain rules in place, it's not a total anarchy just a very slim government. And if you have some skill that will be able to make money you will get money, that just doesn't apply to 95% of the people, well, if you are an idiot and can't add anything productive you don't deserve luxuries people that can have.
You have never read Das Capital, so all you know about Capitalism, Communism and Socialism (or don't know) comes from guessing.

So whatever i write tends to have more grounds for an argument, seeing how I actually bothered to read the ideology of Communism and Capitalism.

Originally posted by Soleran
While that may be true to a certain degree, your comment utterly victimizes and sends a message that no matter what you do, you're stuck and its us vs them.

This maybe true for some people, yet I am also constantly amazed when people stop making excuses and playing the victim role that things can change rather quickly with positive financial results.
I understand what you're saying.
But thats the way capital works. My statement was simplified, but it applies to general rule.

In order to make money you depend on the upper class to employ you. And its up to THEM the money you are going to get. If you complain against it too much, they can fire you, because there is ALWAYS workforce adn there is ALWAYS someone who is willing to do what you are not.

Social mobility is very difficult in the truly capitalist countries.

A lot of countries in europe have adopted so many socialist ideas - free education, free health care, social welfare, grants for universities, grants for children with worse socio-economic background, free access to everyone to this and that... are ALL socialist ideas.
A truly capitalist country (i could freely say America?) does not have these things, and does not have ''rules'' which are on one level or the other making everyone equal.

Capitalism recognises and thrives on exploitation. Its the very core of capitalism. Certain things just cannot be allowed in order for Capitalism to work.

I'd just like to say this.

When comparing Capitalism and Communism, all you need to look at are countries like PDRK and the Korean Republic. The KR has a many more resources, money, power and technology. Whereas PDRK doesn't.

Another example is USA and China. USA is a horrible country where the mentally unstable don't get jobs because of it, can't get medical treatment because it's too expensive for them, can't get houses because of debt and other money problems. You know what treatment they do have? Go on, guess. Well, as most of you know, there are shops (stores) in USA that sell GUNS! So do the math, Psycho + Cheap Gun + People making fun of psycho = Dead people.
However, China isn't that good either. Because of it's poor industry (thanks to communism), their economy could collapse any minute, which would make a dramatic decrease in the world's economy. And then millions of people (across the world) could lose their jobs! shock We would also lose our jobs if USA fails, which (again) it could do any minute! So don't go Capitalist or Communist, they are BOTH bad systems. We need to help people, and make sure everyone is doing their part in society. It's the smart choice. Socialism might have it's downfall aswell, but do you really want a system that's doomed for failure faster than you can say "I think we're losing money!". Socialism is better than Capitalism and Communism.

Now you can yell at me for being so wrong.

Originally posted by lord xyz
I'd just like to say this.

When comparing Capitalism and Communism, all you need to look at are countries like PDRK and the Korean Republic. The KR has a many more resources, money, power and technology. Whereas PDRK doesn't.

Another example is USA and China. USA is a horrible country where the mentally unstable don't get jobs because of it, can't get medical treatment because it's too expensive for them, can't get houses because of debt and other money problems. You know what treatment they do have? Go on, guess. Well, as most of you know, there are shops (stores) in USA that sell GUNS! So do the math, Psycho + Cheap Gun + People making fun of psycho = Dead people.
However, China isn't that good either. Because of it's poor industry (thanks to communism), their economy could collapse any minute, which would make a dramatic decrease in the world's economy. And then millions of people (across the world) could lose their jobs! shock We would also lose our jobs if USA fails, which (again) it could do any minute! So don't go Capitalist or Communist, they are BOTH bad systems. We need to help people, and make sure everyone is doing their part in society. It's the smart choice. Socialism might have it's downfall aswell, but do you really want a system that's doomed for failure faster than you can say "I think we're losing money!". Socialism is better than Capitalism and Communism.

Now you can yell at me for being so wrong.
Poor industry? Perhaps we have different definitions of the word industry, because China's industry is anything but poor.

And where are you getting that 'their economy could collapse any minute' bit from?

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
You have never read Das Capital, so all you know about Capitalism, Communism and Socialism (or don't know) comes from guessing.

So whatever i write tends to have more grounds for an argument, seeing how I actually bothered to read the ideology of Communism and Capitalism.



And of course from people that read it and wrote about it, probably people whop have a better grasp of it than you too....

And what did you read about Capitalism?

Not an easy question to answer... There are so many variations: social democracy, libertarian socialism, parliamentarry socialists, direct/liberal democracy... Most communist states refer to themselves as socialist. According to Marx, capitalism will lead to revolution and ultimately communism. America is a thriving economy, but the inequalities in wealth distribution continue to rise, monoplies, unemployment, etc.... Communism is to ideal, not very realistic. Capitalism isn't going any where, it will continue to thrive... Man is greedy, and will devour this planet, until there is nothing left.

Originally posted by lord xyz
OK, first, Socialism is not Communism.

second, which do you think is best? Capitalism, (making poeple work for their money) Socialism, (helping eachother) Communism, (keeping everyone the same).

Personally I am for Socialism. thumbup
Capitalism is an economic system in which the means of production are mostly privately owned, and capital is invested in the production, distribution and other trade of goods and services, for profit. These include factors of production such as land and other natural resources, labor and capital goods. Capitalism is also usually considered to involve the right of individuals and groups of individuals acting as "legal persons" (or corporations) to trade in a free market.

Socialism refers to a broad array of doctrines or political movements that envisage a socio-economic system in which property and the distribution of wealth are subject to social control. As an economic system, socialism is usually associated with state or collective ownership of the means of production. This control, according to socialists, may be either direct, exercised through popular collectives such as workers' councils, or it may be indirect, exercised on behalf of the people by the state.

Communism is a political ideology that seeks to establish a future classless, stateless social organization based upon common ownership of the means of production. It can be classified as a branch of the broader socialist movement. Communism also refers to a variety of political movements which claim the establishment of such a social organization as their ultimate goal.

Now that the definitions are correct everybody can make an informed decision. My vote is for Capitalism because I'm a business owner and under Socialism over half of my earnings would go back to the government as taxes. I like the idea of "survival of the fittest". I've worked hard for what I have and don't like the idea of wealth redistribution.

Capitalism works, communism is a failure, and socialism isn't far behind.