Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Who would win?

Ragnos and Naga summarily slaughtered.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Ragnos and Naga summarily slaughtered.

Like it happened to the last two of your functioning brain cells, correct ?

Ragnos and Sadow WTFdestroy the others. Reasons ? Not needed any longer here.

Very close. Sids is probably slightly stronger then Sadow, but so is Ragnos to Kressh. I'd say Rag and Sadow.

Awww, is Nai getting upset? Is Nai forgetting how DE Luke was said to have surpassed any other Jedi? Perhaps how Sadow and Kressh were equals?
Yep, Ragnos will be able to stand against Luke in his most powerful state in DE: Channeling the entire light side. But wait! TEH MARKA IS STRONGER THAN TEH LIGHT!
Give me a break

Where are you getting all of these quotes from Lightsnake? Do you and Anderson exchange love letters or something?

No more than you cyber with people pretending to be Revan.

Well where do you get all of these quotes from then?

Sourcebook, the handbook, among others

Originally posted by Borbarad
Like it happened to the last two of your functioning brain cells, correct ?

Ragnos and Sadow WTFdestroy the others. Reasons ? Not needed any longer here.

Excellent reasoning!

Sadow - requires a ship to do anything spectacular.

Ragnos - we know next to nothing about him, so sure - he must be able to defeat a guy who eats entire fleets of ships for breakfast and can teleport anyone from any place at any time.

Sadow didn't need his ship to make a star go nova in DLOTS...
Sadow didn't need his ship to generate mass illusions...

Nebaris:
1. In DLOTS, that's now what happened. That is a holocron retelling. In Golden Age, where we see it as it happened, he needed the ship and used the 'electrical weapon'....stop using DLOTS for this example when it's a retelling to what we actually saw happen
2. He's sitting in a ship designed to enhance illusions surrounded by force enhancing crystals

Sidious fries them while Ludo, just, stands there and makes sure they don't get close.

Way one: DE Sidious conjures up a Force Storm while Marka and Naga slaughter Ludo. Then Marka and Naga turn the storm back on Sidious like Luke and Leia did. The other way one of the ancient's kills Ludo while the other one defeats or, at least, hold Sidious back in a lightsaber duel and after Ludo dies the two ancient's team up on Sidious and he dies.

Either way i go with Marka and Naga.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Way one: DE Sidious conjures up a Force Storm while Marka and Naga slaughter Ludo. Then Marka and Naga turn the storm back on Sidious like Luke and Leia did. The other way one of the ancient's kills Ludo while the other one defeats or, at least, hold Sidious back in a lightsaber duel and after Ludo dies the two ancient's team up on Sidious and he dies.

Either way i go with Marka and Naga.

Darthsith, I won't get into another incredibly redundant and ridiculously long argument (unless I have to), but we know nothing of Ragnos's powers. Nai makes assumptions and such (which may be true) but they are not confirmed.

Until such a time when we know the full scope of his powers and they are proven to be greater than everyone else's, I do not consider Ragnos as anything but your standard Ancient Sith.

And even then, I still say he goes down to Sidious simply because Sidious can conjure Force Storms for a fact - and without assistance from any item.

Naga and Ludo are scared shitless of Marka's spirit. Why would that be unless his spirit is stornger than either of them are? And it's only logical that Marka would be stronger aliven than in the form of a spirit. And if Luke, Leia and fetus Anakin Solo can block a Force Storm then Naga and Marka together definatelty could.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Naga and Ludo are scared shitless of Marka's spirit. Why would that be unless his spirit is stornger than either of them are? And it's only logical that Marka would be stronger aliven than in the form of a spirit. And if Luke, Leia and fetus Anakin Solo can block a Force Storm then Naga and Marka together definatelty could.

Please don't bring up the spirit argument.

Ragnos, Palpatine, and Kun all had spirits.

a) It took a single average Jedi to repel Ragnos's spirit and make it flee.
b) It took an entire Academy of students to obliterate Kun's spirit.
c) It took Brand and "all the Jedi before " to hold Palpatine's spirit in oblivion.

You tell me which is more spectacular.

Furthermore, imagine the power of three Skywalkers. It was the "attunement" of them. Which is their connection to the Force, which is stronger than any other entity (including Palpatine, Kun, or Ragnos) to conquer a single Force Storm.

You're making assumptions.

Luke, Leia and fetus Anakain as of DE arn't as great as Naga and Marka. Marka lived for over five thousand years, Exar over four thousand. Palpatine lived for 93 years. Tell me, which is more impressive?

Originally posted by darthsith19
Luke, Leia and fetus Anakain as of DE arn't as great as Naga and Marka. Marka lived for over five thousand years, Exar over four thousand. Palpatine lived for 93 years. Tell me, which is more impressive?

Is that your tactic? Answer my question with a question?

I believe I've been kind enough to respond to your arguments. Why don't you be courteous and return the favor.

Originally posted by Escape81
Is that your tactic? Answer my question with a question?

I believe I've been kind enough to respond to your arguments. Why don't you be courteous and return the favor.
Brand isn't any stronger than Jaden Korr is stronger than a dying Brand.It only took so many Jedi to defeat Kun because Kun was in possession of a body at the time (Kyp's).

And uh...weres the proof that Naga is even better than Ludo in dueling? When they fought they stalemated.

And wtf? The duo wasn't scared of Marka. well, Ludo was, Naga was frigan talking SMACK to the spirit. Doesn't sound like has afraid to me.

Mm-hmm. You still didn't answer my question, but if you'd like to act like an ass, I will be happy to return the favor.

So, let me answer for you. Choice "C" is the most impressive, with "B" following close. Choice "A"? No. Not impressive when compared to the other two.



a) Oh yes. Who mortally wounded Brand? Palpatine . . .

b) Jaden Korr's exact level of strength is unknown. Why? He's a video game character. Skywalker refers to him as "a promising student". Okay. Nice job.

c) Poor logic. As we've seen, it was Kun responsible for all the powers that Kyp possessed. So why would Kyp be responsible for the difficulty required to expell Kun's spirit?

d) Brand: "Palpatine will never return . . . all the Jedi before us will see to that." Meaning "all of the Jedi" will be required to see that Palpatine never returns.



Force attunement. "Strength in the Force". I've said this 'til I've been blue in the face, and you still try to worm your way around it, like the others. Ragnos is an unknown. Don't argue about him with me. Sadow? Pretty damn powerful. But requires his ship to do anything truly spectacular amongst my standards.

Skywalkers - even the fetus - have intense strength in the Force. Not accumulated experience and power. But attunement to the Force.

Which, sadly, is above Sadow.



a) He lived for 100. Why? Alien physiology.
b) His spirit survived for 5000 years because no one expelled it.



a) Exar died. Hence spirit.
b) Exar's spirit lived 4000 years and it was stronger than Ragnos's.



a) In a human body. Seven years short of Ragnos's natural reign.
b) His spirit was finally expelled.



Palpatine's and Kun's.

He wasn't actually in possesion of his body. If you mean physically of course...Exar Kun was in Kyp's head, just like Palpatine was in Anakin's.

Originally posted by Blaxican Hydra
And uh...weres the proof that Naga is even better than Ludo in dueling? When they fought they stalemated.

And wtf? The duo wasn't scared of Marka. well, Ludo was, Naga was frigan talking SMACK to the spirit. Doesn't sound like has afraid to me.


Naga vs Ludo is like Yoda vs Sidious. A hard determained match up. Although Naga has shown he can do far more than Ludo. Force wise and In combat, the same for yoda.

Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
Naga vs Ludo is like Yoda vs Sidious. A hard determained match up. Although Naga has shown he can do far more than Ludo. Force wise and In combat, the same for yoda.

Roflmao.

We barely even know anything of what Ludo can do, really. He only fought once, and he never used the force to help him.

Well...have we seen Palpatine do anything but sit on his ass? Yoda fought during the clone wars. We saw him in the CW comics and animated series. Why is my post so funny? Have we seen Palpatine do anything greater than Yoda has on the battlefield with force powers and dueling?

Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
Well...have we seen Palpatine do anything but sit on his ass? Yoda fought during the clone wars. We saw him in the CW comics and animated series. Why is my post so funny? Have we seen Palpatine do anything greater than Yoda has on the battlefield with force powers and dueling?

Yet he's able to keep up with Yoda and stalemate him in battle. Thus, I suppose, he has to be able to do something akin . . .

If you'd get to my responses, you'd be able to see that.

They will see that he doesn't return just as they've seen to it that no other Sith returned.

Their strong but fetus Anakin and DE Leia? Nothing special. Luke's strong, yes, but not as strong as the ancient's.

I could say the same thing about Sidious. He only lived as long as he did because he was in hiding for alomost his entire life.



Kun made Kyp far stronger. Actually, tdtd proved this to me. In I, Jedi, Corran Horn is able to withstand Kyp's Force attack on him until Kun's spirit possessed Kyp's body. then Corran got pwnd.

You're not understanding.

I'm not talking about Yoda vs Palpatine. Read what I wrote:

What has Palpatine done greater than Yoda on the battlefield during the CW? In the comics Palps sit's on his ass and does nothing. We see Naga do a hell of a lot, but Ludo nothing really.

What does Sado do? he sits aroudn on his ass all day, and makes illusions USING HIS SHIP. Oh yeah, he blows up a star USING HIS SHIP.


What does Palps do? Well, he kills 4 Jedi Masters in about...what? 10 minutes? BY HIMSELF. He too, sits on his ass and manages to TAKE OVER THE ENTIRE GALAXY.

And lets not forget that he stalemated Yoda, who would WTFpwn Naga Sadows fruity ass.

Originally posted by darthsith19
They will see that he doesn't return just as they've seen to it that no other Sith returned.

Their strong but fetus Anakin and DE Leia? Nothing special. Luke's strong, yes, but not as strong as the ancient's.

I could say the same thing about Sidious. He only lived as long as he did because he was in hiding for alomost his entire life.



Kun made Kyp far stronger. Actually, tdtd proved this to me. In I, Jedi, Corran Horn is able to withstand Kyp's Force attack on him until Kun's spirit possessed Kyp's body. then Corran got pwnd.


Yes, except that he was not in Kyp's body when he was confronted in Yavin. They were many lightyears away from each other.

No other Sith's spirit has been expelled.



STRENGTH IN THE FORCE!!!!.

Remember how, in ESB, Palpatine says "The Force is strong with him", and Luke was nothing but CRAP there? It's not talking about his current level of abilities.

It is talking about his connection in the Force. Leia has the same connection that Luke does. Luke possesses superior abilities. But he practices more. Same for Anakin. He's got the same connection.



I've lost my patience.

What the hell does physiology have to do with hiding for his life? Physiology = body. Ragnos lived to be 100 because he's alien. Like how Yoda lived 900 years. Not because the Force let him live that long, but because he lives longer!!!



Good God!

READ CAREFULLY

This is what I said:



I said that Kun was responsible for Kyp's powers. But you said that it required an entire academy to expel him simply because of Kyp.

I said Kyp was not the reason that they had so much difficulty. It was that Kun is so powerful.

Originally posted by Blaxican Hydra
What does Sado do? he sits aroudn on his ass all day, and makes illusions USING HIS SHIP. Oh yeah, he blows up a star USING HIS SHIP.


What does Palps do? Well, he kills 4 Jedi Masters in about...what? 10 minutes? BY HIMSELF. He too, sits on his ass and manages to TAKE OVER THE ENTIRE GALAXY.

And lets not forget that he stalemated Yoda, who would WTFpwn Naga Sadows fruity ass.

Umm, this is the Naga Sadow that basically single-handely took over a planet right? I thought so. At least we see him do something. His plan was to take over the galaxy, but not by means of manipulation..instead by aggresive means.


He is not taking over the galaxy by himself, he has help. Lots of help I might add. More than Naga would ever get. All he has to do his hide from suspicion and plan his take over. He is quite darn good at it, but he doesn't do anything until after he's successful.

Escape, let it go man.

Originally posted by Blaxican Hydra
Escape, let it go man.

Jesus. They're both damn smart, but they're not reading. This isn't a case of me and Nai where Nai spouts out some Latin jargon that I literally have no idea what it means . . . they're just not taking their time.

Originally posted by darthsith19
They will see that he doesn't return just as they've seen to it that no other Sith returned.Exactly,but Palpatine is a greater threat than just 'any other Sith'.He knows every DS Technique,great skills with manipulation.

No,Luke IS stronger than the Ancients,he managed to defeat the most powerful DLotS in History(Source:NEC,DESB) by himself,where Naga or Ludo,or both,wouldve most likely failed.Luke by that time is stronger than Yoda,who is quoted to be the best Jedi ever(Source:ROTS Novel).

Really?Then how did he manage manipulate the Senate?He did hide,yes,but when he did he was busy studying DS Techniques and Sith Alchemy or creating them.


What Akbar said about this.

I do take my time, if I'm considered one of those 2 people, but I dont spend 10 minutes analyzing the information before I post something. Except of course in the Mace vs Yoda thread.

Erm...Luke, Leia and baby Anakin's raw power was enough to transform them into luminous beings in the force and become a pure, utter and complete conduit to the lightside...that's well, well above any darksider. And Brand was propelled by the force when Palpatine flew into him and Palpatine's spirit was enough to kill Brand in moments, 'eating him alive in darkness'...and Palpatine was STILL about to get to baby Anakin when Leia and Luke shielded him...and when you consider it took every Jedi who ever lived to bind Palpatine...

WTF? DE Sidious is terribly overrated here. Don't get me wrong, he's very powerful but DE Luke was almost as strong as him. I'd say Luke became as powerful as Palpatine by JA, and I think that most people would agree that the top dogs of the NJO (Kyp, Jacen, Kyle, Raynar etc.) would be able to defeat JA Luke. This alone puts many people above DE Sidious. Face it, he wasn't that powerful.

I'd say that he is only just the strongest here, however Ludo is quite easily the weakest here and I believe that Ragnos and Naga would therefor win.

DE Luke and DE Sidious WERE equals at the end...they were described as 'twin divinities' for instance....and DE Palpatine was described as a Dark Side God....and the strongest Sith of Bane's Order

And DE Luke was really not too powerful compared to how powerful he would become.

MEaning by now, he's a freaking incredible force user as compared to simply incredible

Yet you get people like Kyp, Jacen, Raynar and Kyle who are all highly superior to DE Luke.

Except they aren't

They clearly are...

when they're described as light side titans and able to compete with Sidious who, by the PT was the strongest Sith in over a millenia...

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
They clearly are...

No, that depends.

Luke, by himself, was still unable to overcome Sidious's most powerful assaults. Kyp Durron couldn't handle a Force Storm, and neither could the other NJO-era personnel. Other than Luke himself.

Escape, go on MSn soon?
I just got an email from Mr. Veitch...Ragnos is 'most definitely Anderson's creation' according to him...so, Anderson believes Palp and Exar above Ragnos....

Game, set. MATCH

Originally posted by Escape81
Darthsith, I won't get into another incredibly redundant and ridiculously long argument (unless I have to), but we know nothing of Ragnos's powers. Nai makes assumptions and such (which may be true) but they are not confirmed.

Oh it's not confirmed that Ragnos was the absolute and lonely top dog of the Ancient Sith Empire ?



Oh my. The "standart" Ancient Sith ? You're talking about people able to infuse so much Dark Side energy into a weapon that said weapon overpowered themselves (Pall) ? You're talking about people who wiped the life from entire planets (Ambria) or who's force techniques were able to exterminate a planet filled with force user including almost the entire Jedi Order of said time period (Nihilus attack on Katarr) ? You are talking about beings who's knowledge enabled a single Sith to instakill three Jedi Council members with a single force attack ? You are talking about the ancient Sith who's creatures spread terror across the galaxy millenia after their invention ? You are talking about the Ancient Sith that pulled (force based) weapons out of their ass, able to obliterate force spirits, crush buildings and even destroy entire star-systems ? Or about the guys who's prowess in battle would make people living in a period of multiple wars of Jedi vs Sith look like "children fighting with toys" ?

Hmm...can it be that the "average ancient Sith" is quite impressive and the small fact that Ragnos was the Dark Lord of the Sith somehow puts him above anybody else in the Ancient Sith Empire ?



Yes. Everyone will go down against Sidious because he will conjure up something like a black hole and wipe the entire place from existance especially when it's already told that said force storms were an ancient Sith technique (even if they were never used to the extend Sidious used them).
Unless you show me the instance where Sidious uses a force storm in direct confrontation with such precission that it wipes a single opponent from existance I have to assume that he won't risk dropping something that "ravages the fabric of space-time" right in front of his feet while having to fend off some Ancient Sith Lord attacking him.

Sidious used the strongest force storms seen. Sidious invented his own techniques. Sidious invented the ability to reach out and kill someone with his anger and only Luke learned that technique from him.

ancient Sith noticeably could not use the Force Storm, or theyd have effortlessly won fleet battles.

KJA thinks Ragnos is weaker than Sidious and Kun. Ragnos is ;definitely KJA's'

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Sidious used the strongest force storms seen. Sidious invented his own techniques. Sidious invented the ability to reach out and kill someone with his anger and only Luke learned that technique from him.


Did we see Sidious reaching out and kill some ancient Dark Lord of the Sith with his anger ? Proof he can ?



Not this again. The Force storm is directly mentioned to be an ancient Sith technique (Tales of the Jedi companion / Jedi vs Sith) so obviously some of them were able to use them.

With the same reasoning I can state that Sidious could have smashed the rebellion with all his force powers - he didn't do it so that means he doesn't have all of this force powers.



Already answered this in the other thread. Mace is weaker than Sidious and still defeated him. Obi-Wan is weaker then Anakin by far and still defeated him. DE Luke is clearly not as strong as Sidious on his own - still he was able to defeat him in a lightsaber fight.

He wrote in the book of anger that it was one of his strongest techniques...and since it's one he invented, an Ancient Dark Lord won't be knowing about it.

'Ancient' Sith technique could stretch all the way back to Adas or beyond, Naga and Ludo noticeably don't use it when it could save their lives. Palpatine never considered the rebels a threat...Naga was running for his life and Ludo was watching a ship slam into his

And how quickly the tone changes...Palpatine would certainly be facing Ragnos in a force fight and he has the definite edge.. And since his and Ragnos's knowledge is equal at the least, with Palpatine's new little twists..

Originally posted by Lightsnake
He wrote in the book of anger that it was one of his strongest techniques...and since it's one he invented, an Ancient Dark Lord won't be knowing about it.


Direct force action only works if you can clearly overpower your opponent. I guess this won't work that easily against another Dark Lord. I mean - the "wall of light" attack was the strongest Jedi technique mentioned and Kun still simply resisted it and was just pushed to the ground.



No. The statement is coming from a source that was written when the Ancient Sith Empire was still the 25,000 year spanning construct with Ragnos being the most powerful being it ever produced. If it says "ancient Sith" than Ragnos was included.

Naga had other possibilities (solar flares, put Kressh fleet in the way of his pursuivants). We already know that he could have ripped the core of the next star off and threw it at the Tetan's destroying them all (since his ship was able to do that).
And Ludo ? Well...if I throw a ship at you would you immediatly develop the idea to create a force storm between your ship and the one coming at you ?



That isn't conclusive, Lightsnake. Sidious force knowledge wasn't enough to overcome Yoda who clearly didn't have as much knowledge about ancient Sith techniques than Ragnos had in a force fight. I don't think he would be able to defeat Ragnos in a force contest.

And this fight involves Sadow and Kressh too. Most likely Sadow will defeat Kressh (at least the comics hint at this with Sadow having one of the purest bloodlines in the empire, Kressh bleeding after their first duel and finally Sadow killing Kressh). And when it's Sadow + Ragnos against Sidious I don't have any doubt who's going to win this.

Yeah, but Kun was one of the two strongest sith Lords, and was wearing his Sith amulet. Palpatine's knowledge can be said to exceed Ragnos if only that he has intimate knowledge of Jedi techniques as well as what he cooked up himself.

If Ludo can't act under pressure, then he doesn't deserve to be called a warrior at all. If Naga could've used the force storm, he'd have saved his Empire...he wasn't happy about going into exile. And a solar flare explosion at that range would destroy a Sith star system and possibly kill Naga, too...however, Palpatine used it to a much stronger extent and if he couldn't full control it at its strongest, noone can.

We're forgetting Yoda's the strongest Jedi ever up to that point, though. Yoda had access to numerous ancient Sith techniques and formed defenses against most if not all Dark Side techniques. Sadow and Ludo could fight, but that would not be quick: Those two were carrying on for some time and neither showed any sign of being ready to fall...if worst came to worst, Palp could throw Ludo at Marka, and take on Naga, who he'd most likely kill and then turn his attention to Ragnos where they could fight evenly. If Marka was strong enough to defeat Naga or Ludo, Palpatine certainly is. We know Palpatine's raw power is greater, along with his knowledge and what he created himself. And by DE, he's grown even stronger, much stronger. Ragnos is facing someone with all his knowledge, plus what's he created, plus what he's made. And his power is greater. Ragnos has a chance to win, but so does Sidious

And Ludo was bleeding because Sadow chucked a rock at him...Sadow was bleeding a bit too, I think and was in the exact same straits as Ludo...he was definitely cut, too.

No offense to you lightsnake but you seem to have a knack for Sidious, and I really like it how you ignore the movies and the comics which don't necessarily put Sidious on par with MANY of the ancient sith lords, but instead you emphasize ambiguous and arbitrary text from quasi canon sources such as "Sidious is the most powerful blah blah blah". Well if you can quantify or equate his "power" with something, then more props to you. The way it is now is the fact that the ancient sith had no equals, whether its from the Golden Age or from the first ever DLOTS. What they displayed was raw power, which is exactly what is used and argued in vs. matches. You cannot come to this forum and simply say "Sidious wins because so and so called him the most powerful sith lord ever". That doesn't work in a debate.

Anyways Ragnos and Sadow should win this without much difficulty.
Kressh is about equal to Sadow, while Ragnos is above DE Sidous(Yes, despite the ambiguous text).. Would be a great match.

Sexy, did you miss the comic where Sidious's raw power destroys an entire FLEET of ships?
I'm sorry, but when you actually prove something like this, to keep this up is just...Show me this 'raw power' displayed, please

Oh, so then Sadow>Sidious because Sadow ripped the core out of a Sun and caused a supernova? Or Nihilus>everybody because he drained the entire life force from thousands of planets? How about Ragnos' scepter that alone drained life forces from anywhere it was used. What is your point? Explain to me how these arbitrary feats are going to help either one of these two in a VERSUS match lightsnake. And again if you are going to go by pure text, which seems to be your sole argument with every Sidious thread, why not read up on Ragnos and his surpassing command of the dark side, of him being THE dark lord, of him living in a time when the Sith were warriors all fighting each other, and were at their peak in terms of power and sith magic. Again this only speaks volumes for his near invincible power, but won't alone speak for his versus abilities..
Oh yea in case you missed it, Palpatine's Force Storm was derived from the ancient sith..

Seriously, READ the comic. Sadow's SHIP was the ting that blew up the star. The FRIGGIN SHIP. And in case YOU missed it, Palpatine knows every technique of the Jedi, and Ancient Sith and what he's invented, including the ability to kill someone instantly with his anger. Wanna go with text, dear? and by the by, ability to kill someone instantly, a technique you invented along with the ability to blast holes in people with your bare hands, and the ability to create holes ranging from small ship to big enough to devour fleets...YEAH that's gonna be helping the good emperor, who's also capable of sucking worlds dry and razing all life from them with the force
Okay, then Palpatine is the greatest Dark Lord of all time, lived in a time when the Dark Side wasn't spread thin and concentrated fully, a god in the Dark Side, a titan, a divinity of darkness, darkness beyond darkness, an event horizon in the force, THE Dark Side...Oh, by the way: the New Sith Empire surpassed the Ancient Empire

Oh, and Ragnos's creator thinks Sidious is the stronger. Thanks!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Sexy, did you miss the comic where Sidious's raw power destroys an entire FLEET of ships?
I'm sorry, but when you actually prove something like this, to keep this up is just...Show me this 'raw power' displayed, please

Actually it was his anger and strong will, not raw forcepower.

On the subject of Ragnos's scepter . . .

Does the power of item quantify power for the owner? If that is so, then Sidious wins again, due to the fact that he owned at least half a dozen major super weapons with the ability to destroy a planet.

Nope, that's what we call 'power'...see, the force storm is described as possibly the most 'powerful' and what Sidious did was the most powerful usage of the dark side.

What do you think anger and strong will are? The Dark Side

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Seriously, READ the comic. Sadow's SHIP was the ting that blew up the star. The FRIGGIN SHIP. And in case YOU missed it, Palpatine knows every technique of the Jedi, and Ancient Sith and what he's invented, including the ability to kill someone instantly with his anger. Wanna go with text, dear? and by the by, ability to kill someone instantly, a technique you invented along with the ability to blast holes in people with your bare hands, and the ability to create holes ranging from small ship to big enough to devour fleets...YEAH that's gonna be helping the good emperor, who's also capable of sucking worlds dry and razing all life from them with the force
Okay, then Palpatine is the greatest Dark Lord of all time, lived in a time when the Dark Side wasn't spread thin and concentrated fully, a god in the Dark Side, a titan, a divinity of darkness, darkness beyond darkness, an event horizon in the force, THE Dark Side...Oh, by the way: the New Sith Empire surpassed the Ancient Empire

Oh, and Ragnos's creator thinks Sidious is the stronger. Thanks!

LOL Palpatine knows every technique? Let me guess, because one of the sourcebooks or whatever says it right? Ok then Marka Ragnos is the most powerful of the most powerful.. You're not making any sense and all of your arguments are solely based on, like I said, arbitrary and ambiguous text. And by all, I mean every single argument.. And as I recall, Nai, Janus, IKC, and someone else destroyed your "Ragnos' creator thinks Sidious is stronger" theory months ago. But it's funny that you should reuse it knowing they are all gone.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Nope, that's what we call 'power'...see, the force storm is described as possibly the most 'powerful' and what Sidious did was the most powerful usage of the dark side.

What do you think anger and strong will are? The Dark Side


And where did this power derive? Oh wait, the ancient sith! And the Force Crush was also called 'possibly the greatest force maneuver in either dark side or light".

Well, Marka Ragnos is KJA's character and he puts DE Sidious and Exar Kun above him.

Therefore, we can work out:

DE Palpatine >=< Exar Kun > Marka Ragnos >> Sadow = Kressh.

Originally posted by Generic Hero
Well, Marka Ragnos is KJA's character and he puts DE Sidious and Exar Kun above him.

Therefore, we can work out:

DE Palpatine >=< Exar Kun > Marka Ragnos >> Sadow = Kressh.

The symbols . . . aaagh!!!

Yeah, exactly.

Oh, and according to the authors at LFL...that 'Most powerful' comment refers to, survey says....5000 years ago and KEVIN J. ANDERSON HIMSELF makes it clear that Exar Kun was stronger than Ragnos! Y'know, the man who CREATED Ragnos? Think you know better than Kevin, honey?

And yeah, you know something? That's EXACTLY what those sourcebooks AND the author of Dark Empire said, and a guide're two. And you know something else? According to the Lucasfilm canon policy, those are JUST AS CANON as any book or comic. You want to play? Try me. Do yoruself a favor and read up on what you're trying to join. Nai even admitted I've proven what Sidious knew
And before you make an idiot out of yourself, I've been arguing with Janus and IKC before they left...and Nai and I are still debating.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yeah, exactly.

Oh, and according to the authors at LFL...that 'Most powerful' comment refers to, survey says....5000 years ago and KEVIN J. ANDERSON HIMSELF makes it clear that Exar Kun was stronger than Ragnos! Y'know, the man who CREATED Ragnos? Think you know better than Kevin, honey?

And yeah, you know something? That's EXACTLY what those sourcebooks AND the author of Dark Empire said, and a guide're two. And you know something else? According to the Lucasfilm canon policy, those are JUST AS CANON as any book or comic. You want to play? Try me. Do yoruself a favor and read up on what you're trying to join. Nai even admitted I've proven what Sidious knew
And before you make an idiot out of yourself, I've been arguing with Janus and IKC before they left...and Nai and I are still debating.


Lightsnake, I love how you take irrelevant OPINIONS as canon sources just to boost your character. No really.. I don't know why you throw around the same arguments for months at a time, wait til people leave, and throw it back again. Exar Kun was NOT stronger than Ragnos, that is proposterous. With your logic, Kun>Sadow and Kun>Kressh and all of the ancient sith. And you still cannot quantify Palpatine's "Power", nor understand that by your logic, Palpatine was the most powerful of his time, as Ragnos was of his, as you say.

And in spite of all of this, you really DO fail to fully grasp the concept of a versus forum. Explain how Palpatine's force storm is going to win him a battle with Kun, or Nadd, or anyone more powerful than him. Then again, you can't even quantify the power.. And before I "Embarass" myself, maybe you should take a look at all of your Sidious arguments from the past year, and see who's the embarassment. Try to provide facts, not opinions nor arbitrary text.. Thanks "Honey".

We need to cool it down a bit!

Now, Kevin J Anderson created Marka Ragnos. He owns the character. His opinion does matter in this case. He has legal rights over both of his character. If he says that Exar Kun and Palpatine are both more powerful than his character, then it's canon fact...

Logical deduction indicates that Marka and Naga are more powerful than Exar Kun, however if someone with legal authority says otherwise, then I guess the Ancient Sith weren't all they were cracked up to be.

#1. Show me where Anderson says this
#2. Fact is different from "I think".
#3. Logical deduction is the point of these forums.. If we used Lightsnakes "Well he said this this and that" logic, there would be no versus forums..

Logical deducton states that the ancient sith were the most powerful, hence their golden age.

Lightsnake will have to do that.



I'm glad that you know the difference.



Wrong. These "well he said this in that" logic is what ultimately determines the argument when both sides are unable to disprove the other.

Because, unfortunately for humanity in general, logical deduction can - at times - be illogica and incorrect.



Read. Above.

ok then so when you can quantify Palpatine's "Most powerful" to Ragnos' more obvious "Most powerful of the most powerful, hit me up".. And I'll wait for Lightsnake to show me Anderson's opinion.

It's pointed out in others threads, DE Sidious vs Marka and maybe even this one. If you read through it, I'm sure you'll find the answer. Lightsnake posted it... you can always ask him again.



Problem is: We don't have any facts regarding the Ancient Sith since we know so little of them. It's hard to quantify their power since we haven't seen a single one take out a Jedi or whatever. Most of their feats can be downplayed too, based on the statements given by KJA and Veich.



I agree, but we can't deny the man of his legal right over his own creations.



I was personally in agreement with this until those statements by KJA. We can't deny his authority over his own characters.

Well then lets wait for official transcriptions of Anderson's "opinion". I can also create Lord of the Rings and Sauron, and then say "Well I personally think Gandalf was more powerful than Sauron". That doesn't make it fact.

It would. If you're the creator, then you can retcon the elements where Gandalf states his inferiority (somewhere in TTT, when they enter Fangorn forest) but the plot will remain unchanged.

No, it's my opinion considering the fact that I created Sauron as the most powerful. The comic is canon, my opinion isn't. Unless it was a definitive statement.. A lot of you guys work on technicalities.

Let me make this absolutely clear.

There has been absolutely no comic, no book, no piece of LFL-approved material that details the power of Marka Ragnos.

The only indicators of his power are that he bested Simus (who is another unknown in this case), that Sadow (who is only truly exceptionally powerful with his ship) feared him (which could - not saying that it is - be the result of politics or propoganda or even Ragnos's mere reputation) feared him, and the big hype that his spirit brought up (which was exiled by one of Luke's mere trainees).

He is the intellectual and - more importantly - legal property of Kevin J. Anderson. If (Lightsnake has the source) he said that Ragnos is inferior to Kun and Palpatine, than that is a fact - until LFL or George Lucas comes and retcons or rebukes that statement, and one that you may not like - nor may you even accept it - but it is one that you cannot disprove.

Further, Lucas himself states that the PT was "the golden age of the Jedi". Are we then to assume that these Ancient Sith could wipe their asses with the best of the best (in the PT)?

Also, more sources label Emperor Palpatine as "the most powerful", than any other Sith Lord - including Marka Ragnos. So, let's say that we assume for a moment that Ragnos is the most powerful of the most powerful.

That only counts for his time, whereas the New Essential Chronology stated that Sidious is "the most powerful in history."

After you say he isn't, then he isn't anymore. You have the right to determine your character's strength...

And even in LotR, there isn't much to definatly put Sauron over Gandalf. You can easily deduce as much, but nothing's really set in stone. The only measure of their power is Gandalf's own statement, which is perfectly fallible (Unlike yours).

Bah, talking Rings again.

Originally posted by Escape81
Let me make this absolutely clear.

There has been absolutely no comic, no book, no piece of LFL-approved material that details the power of Marka Ragnos.

The only indicators of his power are that he bested Simus (who is another unknown in this case), that Sadow (who is only truly exceptionally powerful with his ship) feared him (which could - not saying that it is - be the result of politics or propoganda or even Ragnos's mere reputation) feared him, and the big hype that his spirit brought up (which was exiled by one of Luke's mere trainees).

He is the intellectual and - more importantly - legal property of Kevin J. Anderson. If (Lightsnake has the source) he said that Ragnos is inferior to Kun and Palpatine, than that is a fact - until LFL or George Lucas comes and retcons or rebukes that statement, and one that you may not like - nor may you even accept it - but it is one that you cannot disprove.

Further, Lucas himself states that the PT was "the golden age of the Jedi". Are we then to assume that these Ancient Sith could wipe their asses with the best of the best (in the PT)?

Also, more sources label Emperor Palpatine as "the most powerful", than any other Sith Lord - including Marka Ragnos. So, let's say that we assume for a moment that Ragnos is the most powerful of the most powerful.

That only counts for his time, whereas the New Essential Chronology stated that Sidious is "the most powerful in history."


Bro, most powerful of the most powerful means he was the most powerful. Sidious was the greatest sith lord, there is no doubt there, but with the statement that was made about him, you can clearly interpret it a few ways. Ragnos' statement was absolute and clear. Until you can quantify what "most powerful" means in terms of Sidious, or show me the clear and definitive statement of Anderson, it is still a LOT more logical to assume the Ancient Sith were the greatest. And yes, the ancient sith of the golden age would destroy the golden age of the Jedi, because those two things are complete opposites, if you thought about it. The Golden age of the Jedi is peace, the Golden age of the Sith is power, and magic.

Originally posted by Generic Hero
After you say he isn't, then he isn't anymore. You have the right to determine your character's strength...

And even in LotR, there isn't much to definatly put Sauron over Gandalf. You can easily deduce as much, but nothing's really set in stone. The only measure of their power is Gandalf's own statement, which is perfectly fallible (Unlike yours).

Bah, talking Rings again.

It becomes canon when you make a definitive statement dude. There is a difference between "I think" and a definitive statement, which we have yet to see.

Originally posted by Generic Hero
After you say he isn't, then he isn't anymore. You have the right to determine your character's strength...

And even in LotR, there isn't much to definatly put Sauron over Gandalf. You can easily deduce as much, but nothing's really set in stone. The only measure of their power is Gandalf's own statement, which is perfectly fallible (Unlike yours).

Bah, talking Rings again.

Um . . . wouldn't it be false, considering how J.R.R Tolkien is like George Lucas in this instance? The supreme authority, considering how the original trilogy belongs to him?

If Lucas said "Ragnos is the uber-man and supreme God of the Force", then not even Anderson could be able to disprove that.

Apparently, according to LS, it was a definitive statement.


I think you're misunderstanding me a bit... J.R.R Tolkien does have the power to determine his own character's strength. If he says Gandalf > Sauron, then so be it.

For this, though, Darth Sexy = Tolkien...

Originally posted by Escape81
Um . . . wouldn't it be false, considering how J.R.R Tolkien is like George Lucas in this instance? The supreme authority, considering how the original trilogy belongs to him?

If Lucas said "Ragnos is the uber-man and supreme God of the Force", then not even Anderson could be able to disprove that.


Yup, and Lucas is the God of canon, so what are you getting at? And I don't care what anything is according to lightsnake, I'm interested in debates, not fanboyism.

Also, if Lucas said "I think Ragnos is more powerful than blah blah blah", that seems more of an opinion than something like "Ragnos is more powerful than blah blah blah".

I disagree, for two reasons:

1. The TotJ comics where that was specifically stated is several years old. The New Essential Chronology is newer, and with the LFL approval, retcons that statement.

2. Marka Ragnos has never (EVER) been described as "the most powerful Sith Lord in history" - which Sidious has.



Um . . . no, it can't. The official statement was:

"Yoda could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history".

What would Sidious's intellectual or political power have anything to do with the context of the situation? They were having a battle to the death, not a debate in the Senate.



Says he was the most powerful of the most powerful. I could impose the same question on you. Perhaps they meant "authority". Especially when the context of the situation had nothing to do with a fight or a battle, unlike Sidious's.



No, not really. I disagree entirely. Sadow required his ship to do anything spectacular. Simus and Ragnos haven't been depicted doing battle.



No, that's not how it works.

If you're going to tell me that "golden age" and "power" mean specifically different meanings for the Jedi and Sidious and Ragnos and the Sith, then you have another thing coming.

If the "golden age" is to be interpreted as "size and power", then the same thing applies for the Jedi.

Furthermore, when Lucas says this - it is during AotC. A time when a Sith Lord was masterminding the ultimate destruction of a galactic government and began to engineer a collosal war.

Hardly "peace".

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Yup, and Lucas is the God of canon, so what are you getting at? And I don't care what anything is according to lightsnake, I'm interested in debates, not fanboyism.

Also, if Lucas said "I think Ragnos is more powerful than blah blah blah", that seems more of an opinion than something like "Ragnos is more powerful than blah blah blah".

Means I'm sort've agreeing with you . . . read carefully.

But here's the difference.

Tolkien (like Lucas) is the supreme Canon authority. Your statement of "Gandalf more powerful than Sauron" would NOT be considered valid because Tolkien still possesses the higher authority.

In this instance, Lucas has not commented on Ragnos or Sidious.

I thought the golden age started with the PT.. And I am indeed going to say that the Golden Age means something entirely different for both. SO now we are at a crossroads again. Who is to say which statement is more accurate? I can also say that Yoda was equal to "the greatest sith lord in history" by having a clear disadvantage the whole fight. So is Yoda>Ragnos, or Kun, or Nadd, or Sadow? And is DE Luke>Ragnos, etc.. Too many technicalities.. If we talk about raw power, Ragnos would obliterate Sidious. If we talk about masterminding, Sidious is the greatest ever known. If we talk about force abilities, most of what Sidious uses was derived from the ancient sith.

Sexy was working under the premise that he was the creator of LotR. Hence my post.

Originally posted by Escape81
Means I'm sort've agreeing with you . . . read carefully.

But here's the difference.

Tolkien (like Lucas) is the supreme Canon authority. Your statement of "Gandalf more powerful than Sauron" would NOT be considered valid because Tolkien still possesses the higher authority.

In this instance, Lucas has not commented on Ragnos or Sidious.


So we're back to square 1. And at the same time I feel that it's pretty obvious since Skywalker himself said it would take him and the ENTIRE Jedi Academy to even HOPE to deal with a living Ragnos, while it took Luke and Leah to deal with DE Sidious.. If you look at facts and use logic, you'll see where all of ths goes..

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
So we're back to square 1.

No. Because though Lucas hasn't come out and said "Sidious is the most powerful", he has not done the same for Ragnos, either.

Right escape, that is why it is up to US to use logical deduce facts, not deal with irrelevant text.

But you have no proof to back it up.

Indeed, I could say Sidious's Galactic Empire was "the golden age of the Sith", because Sidious's Empire is, militaristically speaking, ungodly superior to Ragnos's, and Sidious controlled the galaxy, whereas Ragnos's Empire was highly limited and very, very tiny.



The NEC says he "lost". My personal opinion is that they stalemated. But the bottom line is, the term "power" in this instance is not ambiguous given the context of the situation - which was a battle to the death.



I do believe that Yoda is at least equal to the Ancient Sith. And, as for DE Luke, you have to understand that Sidious floored his ass in saber combat, and yet, less than a day later, he becomes skilled enough to defeat Sidious in combat?

Now before you jump on me, please let me state that the following is an opinion - but, I believe that Leia had something to do with the fight, considering how Sidious had the upper hand in the comics, and then the panel with Leia is shown (her outline is highlighted and mystical) and WHAM! Sidious is disarmed, literally.

Secondly, Sidious (still) was highly superior to Luke in the Force.



I don't deny that he is the greatest. In terms of achievements, he pwns all other Sith Lords.

But, then, there's also the fact that Sidious could have augmented these Force powers that "derived from the Ancient Sith".

This is actually a common misconception... Ragnos' Sith Empire was surprinsingly big. Nai pointed that out once. It easily took up 1/6ish of the galaxy.

Not nearly as big as Palpatine's, but much bigger than the Hutt's, the Rakata's...

Originally posted by Generic Hero
This is actually a common misconception... Ragnos' Sith Empire was surprinsingly big. Nai pointed that out once. It easily took up 1/6ish of the galaxy.

Not nearly as big as Palpatine's, but much bigger than the Hutt's, the Rakata's...

Excuse me for not elaborating, but that is what I meant. In comparison to Palpatine's.

Right and I agree with you on everything except I never understood how Yoda lost.. Ive seen arguments on here battling over the definition itself. In my personal opinion it was a stalemate in terms of the battle itself, and a victory in the longrun. I do not believe Yoda is equal to any of the ancient sith, or the majority of the TOTJ characters, seeing as they had more raw power and force abilities. I am of course speaking of a versus logic, in which Yoda would go down to a lot of people. In terms of Wisdom yes Yoda was among the greatest of all time, but explain how he would defeat any of the ancient sith, or Kun, Nadd, Vodo, etc..

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Lightsnake, I love how you take irrelevant OPINIONS as canon sources just to boost your character. No really.. I don't know why you throw around the same arguments for months at a time, wait til people leave, and throw it back again. Exar Kun was NOT stronger than Ragnos, that is proposterous. With your logic, Kun>Sadow and Kun>Kressh and all of the ancient sith. And you still cannot quantify Palpatine's "Power", nor understand that by your logic, Palpatine was the most powerful of his time, as Ragnos was of his, as you say.

And in spite of all of this, you really DO fail to fully grasp the concept of a versus forum. Explain how Palpatine's force storm is going to win him a battle with Kun, or Nadd, or anyone more powerful than him. Then again, you can't even quantify the power.. And before I "Embarass" myself, maybe you should take a look at all of your Sidious arguments from the past year, and see who's the embarassment. Try to provide facts, not opinions nor arbitrary text.. Thanks "Honey".

That's it. Time to take off the gloves:

Understand something, you irritating, immature little brat: what I've posted in the way of emails and quotes, I scanned in and posted here and at Janus's site, so there'd be zero way to argue it. Escape's seen them, got it? And according to Kevin J. Anderson, Exar Kun is stronger than Marka Ragnos and the other Ancient Sith. I don't have to prove anything to you, got it? I've proven it here before and I posted the thrice damned email for the benefit of others. They've seen it. You haven't? Too ****ing bad.

How's Palpatine's force storm gonna help him? Hm, he can only control the size and withstand it totally unless his control is cut off by people wielding the entire power of the lightside against him, I suppose a combination of that! Or his instakill, or any of the thousands of other techniques he knows and invented. You know something? Official sources saying "Yes it did." is proof enough...I've proven that too with links to LFL's canon policies.

Hold on a second, youre using name calling and getting angry about a debate, yet I'm immature.. Hey lightsnake, can we say projection? Life is good, everything will be OK.. You keep talking about these scans yet you've had at least 15 minutes of just taking 30 seconds and posting them again instead of crying. All of your nonsense is purely speculative at this point, you use the exact same debates everytime and they always get beaten, can you move on to something new that doesn't involve "Well he said this you'll just have to find the proof himself". And this isn't even the fact that Sidious needs distance to create his force storm, and seeing as it is a 2 on 2 match, his force storm, which was derived from the ancient sith, is as useless as Sadow blowing up a storm.

Except he doesn't. As he can control the size. And power.

Try again, though

Great argument lightsnake! "I have no logic but just accept it because I will feel better". I don't know how old you are but it's clear you don't have any common sense. It's a 2 v 2 VERSUS match, he is NOT going to just create a gigantic force storm(you know how big they are obviously), and not kill himself in the process. By the time he's done creating one and generating some space, Ragnos or Sadow would have punted him to the nearest star, or used the amulet.

What part of 'other posters have seen it, ask them."

and no, he wouldn't create a giant force storm...he'd create a small, ship sized one....or simply do one of the million other attacks he has. and punt him to the nearest star? Listen to yourself...and here's another tiny factor: Given that Palpatine's spirit is able to outlast his body, losing said body ain't gonna be that much a loss

Oh youre right Lightsnake because someone as powerful as the ancient sith, where Sidious got his techniques from, are just going to prance around while Sidious enters their bodies.. That's brilliant.. And what are these millions of techniques Sidious apparently knows, or is that another ambiguous statement. And stop saying "others have seen it", that doesn't make your debate a fact. I can also say "the general consensus of this forum is that Ragnos and the ancient sith pwn all, because its been done many times". You see the stupidity in that statement? Thank you.

You miss how techniques were also invented by sidious and he learned a lot of Jedi techniques, too?

And yeah, others seeing the email, kinda do verify it.

So send me the emai! You've been at it with me for a little over half an hour, you could have sent it already instead of arguing. And all of these techniques are what exactly Lightsnake? I want your argument, not bullshit text from a source book stating "Oh he knew everything". That doesn't say much for what you're arguing, so tell me what techniques he DID have, and the ones that would help him in a VERSUS Fight with more powerul force users.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
So send me the emai! You've been at it with me for a little over half an hour, you could have sent it already instead of arguing. And all of these techniques are what exactly Lightsnake? I want your argument, not bullshit text from a source book stating "Oh he knew everything". That doesn't say much for what you're arguing, so tell me what techniques he DID have, and the ones that would help him in a VERSUS Fight with more powerul force users.

Hate to interrupt, but Sidious can control the intensity and power of his Force Storms. He can even control the nature of them as well.

For example, he can use his Force Storms to vaporize massive fleets, or control the constitution of said storm so where it actually teleports its target to a chosen destination.

As Nai himself once asked, what if Sidious just put them in orbit?

1. You don't have an email address.
2. I gave you a link tot he site, find it your own damn self.
3. Sourcebooks are valid, according to Dan Wallace who came to this forum for a small time...as valid as books or comics. Sorry, but the sourcebooks? They work.

What techniques DID he have? Everything. End of story. Morichro, Malacia, force lightning, his own creations, force pulse, force speed, plague, horrors, choke...you name it, he had it

And I can say the same thing for the ancient sith too, considering it is more logical for them to know everything that Sidious already knew, as opposed to some MORE ambiguous text about Sidious, where you base your entire argument on. I don't even know how you can use the text as part of your debate lightsnake. But sure, the ancient sith knew everything Sidious knew, and more..

Except you really can't.

How about this? New Essential Chronology says exactly that Sidious was the most powerful Sith in history.

Except the Ancient Sith didn't know what Sidious invented and Jedi techniques. Try again

How can they know newly invented techniques, or self invented techniques from Sidious himself? Or even the jedi techniques that was developed in the millenias the jedi ruled...

And how can Sidious know everything that the ancient sith knew? Please tell me what they meant by "everything" in terms of Sidious? Everything according to the PT times, the ancient times, overall? Oh wait, you're arguing with an ambiguous statement. And I know what the NEC says, I have it lightsnake. Ragnos is also "The most powerful of the most powerful", what's your point? Suddenly the Ragnos statement is useless and the Sidious statement is fact? Please explain what they mean by "most powerful in history". If you mean tactically, yes, politically, yes, raw power, not a chance.

Originally posted by kamikz
How can they know newly invented techniques, or self invented techniques from Sidious himself? Or even the jedi techniques that was developed in the millenias the jedi ruled...

That's my point.

The "Ancient Sith pwn because they have more knowledge" theory doesn't always work. Especially since it's been several millenia after their death for following Dark Lords to invent new techniques or rediscover them.

Same would go for "Sidious knows everything", which was my point escape. And Escape, the link didn't work.

Because he had numerous holocrons, sites they created, access to their spirits...

And here's the exact quote: He knew all known, previously unknown and forgotten techniques and devised new ones at his pleasure."

And sorry, 'raw power' since it;s a direct reference to combat! The author even clarified what he meant! In fairness, I'll include he said not to take it as 100 percent gospel as LFL could change it, but...yeah, we know what he meant. And learn your grammar!
"WAS the most powerful....NOW he is dead!"
It only applies to the Ancient Empire! The authors were nice enough to clarify that too

Now tell me, was this including the fact that the Golden Age of the Sith existed, and that the Sith have been around for longer than 7,000 BBY? And who are you to say it only applied to the most powerful lol? The Most powerful of the most powerful is a lot more obvious than "Most powerful sith lord in history". That is my entire point. All this ambiguous text about Sidious knowing everything and what not, look at what he displayed in the comics, and in the books, and look what the ancient sith displayed in terms of raw power and force abilities.

Perhaps he doesn't. But that doesn't negate the possibility that he knows more than what they do. He could've rediscovered old techniques and even created his own.



Why is everything suddenly ambiguous when it involves Palpatine?



Everything normally means everything - meaning all of it.



The New Essentially Chronology is LFL approved, and is considered a valid source.



For his time. He is never (EVER) referred to as "the most powerful ever", whereas Palpatine has been. Like I said. More sources label Palpatine as "teh uber" than any other Sith Lord.

Ragnos included.



No. It means that Ragnos's only applied for his time, whereas Sidious's statement included "history" which supercedes Ragnos.



I won't argue this with you again. So, please, pay attention.

The context of the situation does not leave any bearing for Sidious's political abilities. It says, quote plainly that "Yoda could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history". The context of the situation was a battle to the death - and not a discussion or a debate in the Senate. It is essentially stating that, "in a battle to the death, Yoda could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history", not "in a civil debate in the Rotunda, Yoda could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history."

Power is not ambiguous.

Um . . . how? These Ancient Sith have been dead for millenia, allowing others to rediscover and invent new techniques. How would that stop Sidious "from knowing everything"?



Then I don't know what to tell you.

And then I revert back to my previous point, with that logic that means Yoda>all except Sidious, DE Luke>All including the likes of Kun and Nadd, etc.. See where I am going with this? And does Sidious display anything that would make him seem like the most powerful sith lord in history? I understand the nonsensical text but how would you apply it to a versus forum with the likes of all those ancient Jedi and sith? Sidious couldn't even defeat Yoda, what makes you think he can contend with Kun?

Oh yea, not to mention that statement was indeed made without having the wonderful EU in mind, correct..

I put Kun and Sidious on equal footing, actually.

DE Luke is not in any fashion, Sidious's equal in the Force, no matter what happened during the lightsaber duel. He's leagues beneath him, even by DE.



Not really.



By being able to do all the crap he did without assistance from an item (Sadow), being virtually unknown (Ragnos), and doing more than all other Sith Lords.



Because text, quotes, and so forth act as proof. Evidence. They can be used.



DE Sidious (Dark Empire) would annihilate Yoda in a fight.



Um . . . it was made in an EU source. . .

Aren't you talking about the ROTS Novel when you say "Yoda couldn't defeat the most powerful sith lord in history"? And how did what you say downplay the abilities of Sadow and Ragnos? I can also say that since Sadow created an amulet that can blast anything to hell, it is hell of a lot more impressive than Sidious' feats. At the same time, Sadow CREATED the sith magic used to rip out the core, it is specifically stated as SITH MAGIC, which is a VERY impressive feat. And Ragnos' scepter? Don't you think its 100% logical that if Ragnos put his power into the scepter, that he doesn't NEED the scepter to do what it did? Not to mention he had no need to suck the life force out of anything during his golden age?

No, because it never said that in the RotS novelization.



No, I don't downplay them.

Furthermore, Sadow's amulet can't blast a fleet to hell, so STFU up and stop trying to say "When an Ancient Sith farts, it is a more impressive feat than Sidious".

NEC actually. ROTs novelization is different.

And prove Ragnos created the scepter, when we know Sith Lords comissioned others to create their weapons. And nope, Sadow blowing up a star-he never tore the core out- was described as a sorcerous gambit, Sith Power, SITH TECHNOLOGY and an electrical weapon.
And Palpatine could suck the force out of anything on his own. If Ragnos could, he would never have needed a scepter...and Palpatine tore open the fabric of space, directly described as the most powerful usage of the Dark Side

Prove ragnos created the scepter? Another attempt to downplay a character? We know Sadow created his amulet, we know Pall created his own sword, and we know Ragnos either CREATED his scepter or put his dark side abilities in it, as nobody had the power to suck the life forces, and it is very logical to assume Ragnos did. And Sadow was described as tearing the CORE from the sun using SITH magic, whether he used his ship or not..

Originally posted by Escape81
No, because it never said that in the RotS novelization.



No, I don't downplay them.

Furthermore, Sadow's amulet can't blast a fleet to hell, so STFU up and stop trying to say "When an Ancient Sith farts, it is a more impressive feat than Sidious".

Notice how i was displaying force abilities, reading comphrension works.

Prove Sadow and Ragnos created their items. PROVE IT.

Here you go again with your technicalities. We know Ajunta Pall created his sword, but when it comes to Ragnos, suddenly somebody else did it, and had the dark side abilities to drain entire planets? Not very good debating Lightsnake especially since you KNOW those items were created by the two. Read DLOTS, using Sadow's knowledge, Kun created an amulet of his own, matching the one Sadow created. Thanks

We know Lord Garu of the council had his sword and items created by someone else.m
And Sidious had the ability to drain the force from planets, try again! Prove Kun created an amulet?

Oh man now youre bringing back your arguments with IKC where you were thorougly owned.. Wow lightsnake I didn't think you would do stuff like that but ignorance is bliss to the new crowd. Lets see, he had 1 amulet, then it mentions that he learned "all of Sadow's teachings", and another amulet magically appeared. Put 2 and 2 together, without being ignorant of course, and you have your answer.

Prove it or shut up

I forgot, youre the type to say "prove Ragnos is more powerful than Sidious with an exact quote". It's called logical deduction Lightsnake, try to use it once in a while. I'll counterargue your ridiculous statement with "proof Sidous can defeat Kun with a direct quote". Maybe you'll see how retarded that statement was.

Darth Sexy, I'd respectfully ask for you to not comment on someone being owned, when - in the end - your "logical deduction" is based on crap.

We've already proven that:

a) Ragnos's powers haven't been displayed.

b) He had the scepter constructed because he couldn't do it himself (why else would he need it?)

c) His scepter's power means nothing when an average Jedi can pwn the person wielding it.

d) Sidious did all of his feats without the help of an item or an amulet.

So, in reality, you are being owned.

1. I didn't say anyone was being owned
2. Logical deduction>Fanboyism
A. The testament of his powers have been obvious
B. Regardless of who actually constructed it, it was obviously his dark side powers in it.
C. Who cares who can wield it, you want to talk about his power, look at the way he curbstomped Tavion as a spirit, even if she was an average Jedi. It's not about who uses it, it's about what it does.
D. So? Because they created dark side tools, it decreases their power or increases Sidious' power? Have you thought about the fact that the Golden Age was about perfect sith alchemy and this is what they used for tools? Or the fact that Sidious didn't know how create an amulet? Have you thought about any of this before trying to downplay characters and elevate Sidious? No, I think my 'logical deduction" makes sense.

And in conclusion I'm being owned by who exactly? I don't call "well this this and that said it but I don't have the proof right now" being owned, but I suppose reality is different for everybody.

Are implying that I am a fanboy simply because I'm disagreeing with your theory that Ragnos owns all and that when an Ancient Sith Lord so much as farts, he is performing a noteworthy feat that places him above all others?



Look, I've lost any reason to be civil with you. STFU. You can't tell me what Ragnos can do anything on par with Sidious, because he hasn't been shown doing it. So, once again, shut the hell up because you have absolutely no proof.



His Dark powers? If he could drain the Force himself then he wouldn't need the scepter. Understand?

Sadow couldn't blast through crap on his own, which is why he built the amulets. He couldn't make two stars go supernova on his own, which is why he built the ship.

Kun couldn't do it either, which is why he built the amulets



Tavion was possessed by Ragnos. They didn't have a fight. She was simply a vessel, and Jaden still pwned her. Also, she happened to be wielding the scepter in combat.



Point being, these so-called "more impressive feats" were done with the assistance of an amulet.

As to why Sidious didn't have any, well, lol, perhaps it was because he was powerful enough on his own - and didn't require any use of an amulet.

By the way, we already know that Sidious trained agents in Sith Alchemy.



You're being owned by anyone you argue against on this topic because you have nothing to support it.

#1. I wasn't implying you were a fanboy, it was a general statement.
2. Now you are sounding like a Sidious fanboy. Why do I have to tell you what Ragnos can do, when I can tell you that his subordinates clearly demonstrated power on a greater scale, and sometimes on a lesser scale, use your head mr "civilized". I don't care if you're getting angry that I don't agree about your favorite character being uber powerful, use your head. If 2 powerful sith lords that could arguably rival Sidious, never stood up to Ragnos himself, what does that say about them? And think about it carefully before giving a childish response.
3. Again, Sadow cannot FLY to a sun by himself, he is not SUPERMAN, he needs a means of transportation to get where he is. Maybe you conveniently forgot the clenched fist that destroyed the sun.. Try reading DLOTS again. And how many times do I have to tell you, just because Ragnos created a scepter to do all that nonsense, doesn't mean palpatine is more powerful than him because he could use his hands. Do you even understand the concept of sith alchemy? They poured their hate and dark side magic into artifacts not only to use, but to pass down to generations. I can just as well say that because Sidious had no knowledge of amulets, he used his hands. I'm sure that sounds as ridiculous as what you are saying.
3. I'm being owned? Welcome to reality, just because I don't agree with your ridiculous and childish comments, I'm being owned? I'm glad you live in your own little dream world. I'm actually providing logical evidence while you're downplaying other characters in favor of Sidious. I don't hate Sidious but when someone uses fanboyism as his argument, that's when I start disliking the character. At least lightsnake can once in a while provide logical evidence. Now I suggest you stop crying because I don't agree with you in a versus thread, and provide a more valid argument.

I thought so.



Because I bring up the fact that you lack facts of your own?



Because this is about Sidious vs. Ragnos, not about Sidious vs. Sadow or Sidious vs. Simus.



The Ancient Sith required the use of items and amulets to do anything on par with Sidious.



I do, and clearly, with more efficiency than you.



We're talking about Gilad Pellaeon, my favorite character? Funny, I thought this was about Palpatine.



With the use of amulets and items that they had constructed to compensate for their lack of ability - and they still fall up short.



That, perhaps, they were victims to an overblown reputation or simply were indoctrinated by fear?



I recommend the same for you, Mr. "Ragnos-Didn't-Need-The-Scepter-To-Drain-Force-Power-From-Planets-And-Yet-I-Still-Can't-Explain-Why-The-Hell-He'd-Need-It-If-He-Could.



The ship, like the meditation sphere, focuses and augments Sadow's power.



Read above and then read what Lightsnake said about this.



So you finally acknowledge that Ragnos required the scepter to drain the Force from planets? Good.



Yes it does, because Palpatine didn't require the use of items and such when it came to the Force.



Oh, I see. So Sith Lords that covet power and want no one else but themselves to know it create the means to pass it down? Logical.

Furthermore, Sidious did have knowledge of Sith Alchemy, confirmed in Dark Empire. Why not read the part when the Alliance tries to invade Palpatine's citadel, and his Dark Side Monsters WTFpwn all the land-craft there.



Yup. Because you haven't shown me what Ragnos can do.



Sorry, man, but you are the one making most of the childish comments.



Like I said. You said that Sadow using a single amulet blast is more impressive than anything that Sidious has done (including annihilating massive fleets)

That is childish.



If I may mirror your words, I could care less.



Um . . . didn't you also say earlier that he never does?

#1. Prove they needed the amulets to focus their power through, and not that they chose to create amulets based on sith alchemy to augment and quantify their power exponentially.
#2. I did not say Ragnos needed the scepter to use the power. You clearly do not understand the fact that if they can create something, regardless of what object it is, with their dark side power, they can clearly do it without it. As I said, the golden age was about sith alchemy, about augmenting and trying to quantify their dark side power. I guarantee you Palpatine's power would have quantified also. So you saying they needed the stuff is just an opinion.
3. Again, because Palpatine didn't require those items doesn't mean he was more powerful. For all you know his power was less based on the fact that he couldn't augment his dark side abilities.
4. Sadow clenching his fist and destroying the sun is quite impressive. You still ignore the fact that it was created using sith magic but that's ok, I'll forgive.
5. Nobody said Sidious wasn't uber powerful in DE.
6. Just like Sidious, Ragnos had the power to entrust the dark side in non force sensitives, so instead of speaking volumes about just Sidious, you can do the same thing for Ragnos.
7. Must I always emphasize the fact that it took nearly the entire academy to defeat the SPIRIT of Exar Kun, that Luke wasn't sure if the entire academy could defeat a living Ragnos, and that DE Sidious was defeated by Luke and Leia and her half ass battle meditation. It's not just about power, it's how you use it. I personally hate DE Sidious because at that point he's completely illogical and insane.

Pretty ridiculous argument.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Pretty ridiculous argument.

Where do you stand?

Edit: Had a Magneto moment there.

Which part?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Which part?

I'll be back later to give my rebuttle, Sexy.

Edit: That didn't sound right, but you understand.

I'm looking forward to it. I still wonder how you can say because they used amulets which were more common in their time than using their hands, that they are somehow Palpatine's inferior. I don't remember seeing any ancient sith use anything but objects.

Does the fact that Luke was described as incredibly powerful meaning ANYTHING? He extended a hand and collapsed an At AT...he flew sips with the force.

Oh, and where'd Luke say it'd take the entire Academy to beat Ragnos? Coulda sworn he said Marka's powers were unknown and the mission was to STOP Marka from resurection

Play Jedi Academy bro. Those were his exact words.

He was talking about stopping his forces and ressurection and even said Marka's powers were a mystery

He said and I quote "It will take the combined power of the entire jedi academy to stop Ragnos". Whether he was a spirit or not is irrelevant, but if he was talkng about Ragnos' spirit, that speaks volumes for Ragnos.

I have said it before and I say it again, just before that quote Luke said, "his power is unknown". He didn't know and didn't want to take any risks, apparently Ragnos wasn't a threat at all. And most of the stuff he heard was rumours. I bet that if you, a thousand years later revived the guy who was spared by Darth Maul at the black sun, he would treat Maul as a god, same thing with the Ancient's and Ragnos....

So you're pretty much going to call Luke a "fallible 3rd party character" because it somehow boosts Ragnos' powers?

What are you talking about? Luke didn't know, it is not an excuse to dismiss Ragnos power, Luke didn't know anything about him, and he couldn't either cause most if any would only be rumours.

He may not have known about Ragnos' power, but he did know what it would take to have a chance to stop him. I don't see how that can't be conclusive considering Luke said it.

Of course, but that was a pure assumption from him, I bet that even if it was Darth Maul, he would not like to take a chance of letting him running rampage, I bet he would want to stop him as much because of the lack of knowledge. So this doesn't really say anything about Ragnos power....

I highly doubt Maul would have a cult behind him and at the same time it is very logical to assume that Luke has heard the tales of Marka Ragnos.

Not if there were rumours about him 5000 years later. And how would Luke have heard about him, most of the knowledge was lost about them, and there were no jedi left from the PT to tell him, I doubt even they knew who Marka was....

Originally posted by Escape81
The only indicators of his power are that he bested Simus (who is another unknown in this case), that Sadow (who is only truly exceptionally powerful with his ship) feared him (which could - not saying that it is - be the result of politics or propoganda or even Ragnos's mere reputation) feared him, and the big hype that his spirit brought up (which was exiled by one of Luke's mere trainees).

Not entirely correct.
We also have the fact that Ragnos spirit, 1000 years after his death, was able to physically damage Kun from a position half-way across the Galaxy (marking Kun's forehead) and the mere fact that Ragnos still seemed to be radiating power enough to make two enraged opponents simply stop fighting twice (Sadow / Kressh - Exar / Ulic).
Not to mention that somebody who trained people able to virtually f*ck up the entire Jedi Order with a single force attack (Nihilus) and had the ability to kill Jedi Council Members with a single force attack called Ragnos grasp on the Dark Side "frightening" and descriped the ancient Sith in general as vastly superior to herself and her "friends".



No. Ragnos isn't legal property of Anderson. Everything in the SW universe is property of LFL - that was the reason for Veitch not to release "Lightsider" because he wanted to keep a certain game concept for himself.
And as I already told you the authors can't determine things in the SW universe they can just interprete certain things. When LFL allows video game creators to make Ragnos look like a god and at least almost certainly more powerful than Exar Kun than this simply is the case. Anderson can just give his personal opinion on the topic...like anyone else.



Wipe their asses with them ? No. Outclass them ? Maybe. But this is more a question of equipment (Sith alchemy) than of actual force powers or potential or fighting abilities. If Sadow's ships was already enough to do "impossible" things that "no Jedi could ever do" some smaller version of the same stuff (like an amulet or a sceptre) could still influence the outcome of a fight pretty much - especially in the hands of somebody who created that stuff.



The NEC quote is already stated to have been Wallace personal interpretation and again this is not a fact but just the personal opinion of authors same with any statements given by Veitch, Anderson or anybody else except Lucas. Lucas is the only person able to generate facts inside of the SW universe.

And if somebody wants to be mean he could just have an eye (or an ear in this case) on the ROTS commentary where Lucas descripes Grievious as "almost cowardly" and "not superstrong or superpowerful" and then judges him as "very much like Palpatine".
Then this somebody could interprete the words in a way that would result in something like "Hey. Palpatine isn't superstrong and superpowerful. And he's almost cowardly. He's just a manipulative actor with just enough fighting skills and force powers to keep himself from death until he can gain some advantage. Doesn't that make him look rather weak compared to that ancient Sith with their 'godlike' force powers and the battle prowess that makes veterans of several wars of Jedi against Sith 'look like children fighting eachother with toys' ?"
But of course nobody does hilarious things like that.