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Isn't it funny how fate and life takes you in circles. We all cry and feel torn at the deaths of the Jedi and for some of us males the loss of a gorgeous woman tsk tsk what a waste. And we of course then blame poor lil Annie Skywalker. Mean, hotheaded, arrogant, power hungry, rude, obnoxious, pretentious little prat Skywalker. Then again, most teenage males are exactly the same once they get a little puffed up.

Now everything Anakin did was for Padme. what were his words to Sidious "Just help me save Padme - I can't live without her" That was his whole reason for going over to the Sith. NOT POWER. That came later after he had already made the choice.

It is that choice, that exact same choice by the same person choosing the same path for the same reason that was responsible for the destruction of both the Republic and the Empire. The exact same choice not only caused the downfall of good but also was the cause for its return, two wholly opposing consequences springing from the same person making that same choice - what would you do to save the one you love?

The second time was in watching his son die. For 20 years he has lived in perpetual self hatred and loathing and agony for the death of his heart and love. Yet before him lies the fruit of that love. Padme's last gift to him, the son borne of their love. So again Anakin makes that same fateful choice. TO SAVE THE ONE HE LOVES. Luke is the son of his heart his padme, and in saving Luke, he saves her. THe same choice yet so startingly different outcomes.

It says in the Novelization that the brightest light casts the darkest shadow and that even stars burn out but the last line alone said it all

LOVE CAN IGNITE THE STARS. For it was love that killed the republic and it was that same love that killed the empire.

"and for some of us males the loss of a gorgeous woman tsk tsk what a waste"
Sentences like these scare me.

I still think that of all the cycles in the movies, by that I mean the repetition of themes and images from the PT to the OT That this is the one that sticks strongly in my mind

Anakin punched out both the Republic and the Empire for Padme.

The dark is generous, and it is patient, and it always wins~but in the heart of its strength lies weakness: one lone candle is enough to hold it back.
Love is more than a candle.
Love can ignite the stars..............

Love - The underlying theme of the star wars movies

Love can both destroy all that you have and hold dear

Or it can free you from oppression and tyranny

love......very powerful~

Love

The same reason the same person made the same choice that brought about the end of two forms of government 20 years apart (give or take)

The Fall of the Republic and the Empire all cause Annie wuvs Pads

This thread is so heartwarming...

Not originally meant to be that way. More was a look at how the same choice was responsible for the beginning and the end of the empire

Everyone hates Anakin because he chose Padme over everything else, which caused the death of the Jedi, the fall of the Republic and the rise of the Empire.

Yet he also chose Padme over everything else again which caused the Death of Darth Sidious, the fall of the empire and the rebirth of freedom in the Galaxy.

The same choice by the same person for the same reason caused untold suffering and joyous freedom. Two wholly opposing outcomes.

Except that hsia ctions that turned him evil were selfish. His love had blinded him and caused doom- he did it because he only cared about his own desires. This is NOT postive love.

Luke's love for his father was very different.

Yes, they were selfish, as stated. He chose Padme over everyone and caused the death of the Republic.

Luke's love for his father didn't save the galaxy, Anakin's love for Padme did.

In watching the movie, it is possible that Vader (And I am choosing the names carefully here) may have allowed Luke to die. Anakin was buried deep. As it took a while for him to move to Luke's aid.

It was watching Luke dying that did the trick. However, it is my belief that it was not Luke dying that turned him back, rather the long buried memories of the visions of Padme dying and begging for help.

In this regard, Luke (A living, breathing, reminder and symbol of Padme and the love that they shared) became the surrogate for Padme. Vader was fuelled by Hate for and of himself causing her death, yet here was the chance to undo that mistake, to take the other road so to speak.

FOr in saving Luke, he basically saved Padme, and resurrected Anakin Skywalker from the depths of hell that he had been buried within

Remember, Until that point, when Vader turned on Sidious, he was still Vader.

Did he love Luke prior to this point. No, I don't believe he did. DId he see Luke as a pathway to greater power - Yes.

Remember, the sith way is selfishness, therefore in trying to turn Luke to the Dark Side was more about what it would give Vader.

Therefore I don't believe that it was feelings towards Luke himself that prompted the redemption, but rather the long buried love for what Luke was the product of.

Sorry to disagree with you there, but you are factually wrong. GL- and for that matter, as clearly seen in ROTJ- tells us how the story is quite simply about how a good man turns bad but is redeemed by his son's love for him.

Luke kept his faith open for Vader, and on seeing that, and the reminiscence of the point at which he turned, Vader was able to reflect on his life.

I believe that your line "in saving Luke he basically saved Padme' is at best overcomplicated and at worst simply wrong.

It is as simple as presented. Luke's love saved Anakin. Anakin;s selfish love only ever caused doom- he should never have falled for Padme, as no Jedi should ever fall for anyone.

Whether or not GL states that Ushgarak is an impossibility.

There are millions of battered women out there that love their abusive husbands. Does it change them, No
The children love their father, does that change them no

Selfishness as displayed is not changed by someone else loving that person. The change can only come from within if that person wants it.

Vader did not even know his son. Had had so little to do with him and basically only showed selfish desire in regards to his son or daughter.

Whereas it was Luke's love that brought about the situation, I don't believe and basic human psychology shows that a person changes from within not from without.

Anakin's feelings of love and goodness were due to his feelings of and for Padme, which Luke was essentially born of. His hatred was for causing the death of her, he was hurt more by the loss of her than the loss of his unborn child.

I am not meaning to argue canon, or to argue GL point, and I can understand the point of Lucas saying that he was ultimately redeemed by his son, for if Luke had of fought to the death as all previous Sith/Jedi duels were, then no redemption, and it was in his son standing strong before palpatine and refusing to fight as Anakin should have with Dooku that sparked the thought process.

But, and please think on this carefully, His visions clearly showed Padme in pain and dying and begging for help, which was then visually repeated in front of his eyes by his son doing the same. That is why I still insist that it was his love for Padme that changed him internally.

However, I do agree that it was Luke's love that made this possible. That is not the arguement I am making here

That it is impossible is your opinion, but that GL says it is so in his own Star Wars story is indisputable fact, so that rather ends that line of reasoning.

Luke had everything to do with Vader coming back to the light. For the past 20 years vader has only known death and bleak hatred under a tyrannical empire, that uses fear to instill "order" . Not to mention almost everybody hates him and/or fears him, except one man who dosent even give a damn about him at the point of ROTJ. So.... when somebody comes along that acutally cares about him, and happens to be his only son, (to his knowledge) that changes everything for him. His entire hatred isnt centered around his loss of padme. As a matter of fact its more or less centered around him. He hates himself more than anything, why? because he basically ****ed the entire galaxy, the jedi order, and his wife and friends are gone.

Instead of being the mighty hero he always wanted to be he ended up being everything he swore he wouldnt be. Obi-Wan couldnt have said it better.....He was supposed to be the hero, the choosen one, the shining light of the Jedi but it was all ruined becuase of one horrid decision. Padme is hardly sctratching the surface of what really turned him to the darkside, i acutally see her as a subsitute for the deep love he had for his mother. He had this insatiable hunger for more, and he couldnt accept things for the way they were, he had to be in control, he wanted more as he said countless times throughout the saga.

Originally posted by Mugen
Luke had everything to do with Vader coming back to the light. For the past 20 years vader has only known death and bleak hatred under a tyrannical empire, that uses fear to instill "order" . Not to mention almost everybody hates him and/or fears him, except one man who dosent even give a damn about him at the point of ROTJ. So.... when somebody comes along that acutally cares about him, and happens to be his only son, (to his knowledge) that changes everything for him. His entire hatred isnt centered around his loss of padme. As a matter of fact its more or less centered around him. He hates himself more than anything, why? because he basically ****ed the entire galaxy, the jedi order, and his wife and friends are gone.

Instead of being the mighty hero he always wanted to be he ended up being everything he swore he wouldnt be. Obi-Wan couldnt have said it better.....He was supposed to be the hero, the choosen one, the shining light of the Jedi but it was all ruined becuase of one horrid decision. Padme is hardly sctratching the surface of what really turned him to the darkside, i acutally see her as a subsitute for the deep love he had for his mother. He had this insatiable hunger for more, and he couldnt accept things for the way they were, he had to be in control, he wanted more as he said countless times throughout the saga.


well said.

thank you, i do what i can

Alright, a simple question

WHat compelled him to move?

Sids was frying Luke like bacon on a BBQ and Vader stood there. And stood there and stood there Even after luke begged him "Father Please.......Help ME!!!" scream scream scream HE STILL STOOD THERE.

Look left look right.

What made him cross the road?

If you take into account the novelisation of the movie and the follow up novel of Dark Lord which states that Anakin was long buried deep within the core of darkness that we know of as Vader,

What compelled the change?

maybe he heard padme's voice in his mind begging him to do something.

or, he was moved finally by his son's agony and distress.



agreed. in_love

Vader was touched that someone could be so moronic to believe in his good side that he actually felt like teh olden days.

I personally still believe that the image of his son screaming/begging for help was so close in imagery to the haunting images of his premonitions of Padme dying that it was this point alone that reached Anakin.

He seemed quite happy all the way along that if Luke pooch screwed the deal then bye bye Luke.

Also, a lot of what GL has said about the OT has to looked at slightly differently now that all 3 PT movies are out. As this allows us to see Anakin and to learn him a little better

And Anakin did everything for and because of Padme. His fall to the dark side was because of her, so why not his choice to return to the light?

And no Ushgarak, I am not trying to get into an argument over canon. That is not the purpose of this thread, merely to see what tripped that switch in the brain to cause the death of Darth Vader and the rebirth of Anakin