Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Surprised no one has made a thread yet about the conflict yet. Basically Israeli soldiers werekidnapped and killed and Israel has invaded them.

Yeah, I read that.

-AC

Basically. Isreal is a terrorist State.

how so?

This.is.scary.

Originally posted by Thorinn
how so?

Hezbollah kidnapped those Isreal soliders, not to mention after 2 weaks of heavy military incusion into Palestine.

Then, Isreal starts bombing Beruit international aairport. They have Lebonon in a Naval Blockade. They are bombing civilian targets. olmert has threatened to "take the country back 20 years" by destorying all their infrastructure.

Of course, a UN resolution against Isreal was vetoed by the f8ing UNited States of America

Israel isn't a terrorist state. My family is from there, and it is a huge misunderstanding people have about israel. They get buses blown up by people who oppose them, the israeli army shows a little force, and they are considered terrorists. (I'm not emotional about it b/c that's where I come from, I just see it as ignorance to make such a ludacris(sp?)statement)


This sucks. It's the beginning of the third world war. Now they are talking about the US working behind the scenes on this(news). by the way, what would a nuclear war lead to(obviously lots of death) but wouldn't it effect everyone somehow...

Originally posted by Alliance
Hezbollah kidnapped those Isreal soliders, not to mention after 2 weaks of heavy military incusion into Palestine.

Then, Isreal starts bombing Beruit international aairport. They have Lebonon in a Naval Blockade. They are bombing civilian targets. olmert has threatened to "take the country back 20 years" by destorying all their infrastructure.

Of course, a UN resolution against Isreal was vetoed by the f8ing UNited States of America


Of course, just like North Korea is backed by Russia and China, its all a game of chess.

What they're doing now to me is pretty blatant terrorism. I sympathise with their situation. But this is totally over the line. TOTALLY.

Originally posted by Soleran
Of course, just like North Korea is backed by Russia and China, its all a game of chess.

There is a difference between "backing" and "unconditional backing."

China and Russia did not like N. Koreas missile tests. They are just being more cautious about punishment. THey have a much bigger stakie in the process than the US does.

The UN vote on the condemnation was 10 for, and 4 abstain. The US was the only one to go against it. Thats a stong comdenmation even though it wasnt passed.

Originally posted by Alliance
There is a difference between "backing" and "unconditional backing."

China and Russia did not like N. Koreas missile tests. They are just being more cautious about punishment. THey have a much bigger stakie in the process than the US does.

The UN vote on the condemnation was 10 for, and 4 abstain. The US was the only one to go against it. Thats a stong comdenmation even though it wasnt passed.


You're getting into the semantics of it, I just made a statement about backing different teams.

I see a lot of people saying that Israel went over the line. What exactly would be considered an appropriate level of force? What is an appropriate response? In order to negotiate both sides have to have some level of trust. Israels trust has been broken many times. Every time Israel extends the olive branch some wacko murderer (backed by one of these terrorist organizations) blows up a dozen or so teenagers or something.

I myself am a believer in total war. If a situation calls for violence you give it the whole shebang and try to finish it as quickly as possible.

There is no DMZ around Israel so when its go time they bring the fight to the enemy.............

Originally posted by docb77
I see a lot of people saying that Israel went over the line. What exactly would be considered an appropriate level of force? What is an appropriate response? In order to negotiate both sides have to have some level of trust. Israels trust has been broken many times. Every time Israel extends the olive branch some wacko murderer (backed by one of these terrorist organizations) blows up a dozen or so teenagers or something.

There is no proof that Lebanon is backing or supports the actions of Hezbollah. In fact they have publicly condemned them. Now the city in question has millions of citizens, the majority of who are in no way affiliated with a terrorist organisation. Hezbollah hides amongst them though.

I see no way in which Israel can be justified attacking conducting the matter like this and attacking infrastructure and civilian targets in a sovereign nation - do they believe it is going to make the terrorists go "oh, maybe we should reconsider?" I doubt it. Do they think that they have a chance of killing a few hundred terrorists mixed in with a millions of non-terrorsits? I don't see how. The Israeli response to both Palestine and Lebanon in this is over blown and counter productive - they are hurting innocent people more then the terrorists, and making the civilian populations angry. Likewise this reaction has no grounding in international law - in fact breaks it. Likewise the initial act of going in and capturing members of the Palestinian government and locking them up - people who have no actual links to the cell that did the kidnapping - this can easily be seen as an attack on a democratically elected government in an effort to coerce the population into a particular course of action.



Does the situation call for it? No. It is like some US terrorist cell (and we know they exist) kidnapping a Mexican soldier - now does Mexico have a casius belli to cross the border and start bombing US cities until they kill the terrorists/free their soldier?



Exactly - they are burning the good will and sympathy that impartial nations might have for their situation. Bombastic, over the top retaliation that is primarily harming civilian targets is NOT helping their situation. They seem to forget that the people elected HAMAS because the previous government was not protecting their interests against Israeli attitudes. If the Israeli administration thinks this is going to fix anything, they are mad.



A little force? They are taking out their anger on *civilian* cities. Now we can say they are hoping to get the terrorists who did the kidnappings, but lets face it - the majority of the people dying are civilians. The army is damaging civilian infrastructure - at best it seems they hope that the civilian populous will get scared enough to hunt down and purge the terrorists - now it doesn't need to be said that this is a similar tactic used by terrorist organisations.

It just really sounds like more people need to read the news coverage of this event........................

"Hezbollah guerillas on Thursday lobbed dozens of Soviet-era Katyusha rockets into northern Israel. Rockets also landed in the northern port city of Haifa, which would mark the deepest point into Israel that Hezbollah rockets have ever reached, but Hezbollah denied that they fired the rockets." Thanks CNN!

"Despite the fact that several countries -- including the Unites States and Lebanon -- have said that the Lebanese government doesn't have the capacity to extend its authority into Hezbollah-held territory, Israel has blamed the Lebanese government for the violence and charged it with the soldiers' safe release." Thanks CNN!

Sucks for Lebanon but its their country why aren't they policing it to protect their citizens to begin with?

"Hezbollah, which enjoys substantial backing from Syria and Iran, is considered a terrorist organization by the United States and Israel. The group holds 23 of the 128 seats in Lebanon's parliament." Thanks CNN!

OMG look Syria and Iran !!!!!!!!! Iran doesn't even acknowledge Israel as a country just a bunch of Zionists and has said time and again they want to reclaim that land. Looks like they sent in lap dogs to stir up a pit fight huh?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/13/mideast/index.html

Just in case anyone else wants to read it the article in full at CNN! Maybe I should slap up a fox piece on it as well so I can appear more impartial though, lol.

Originally posted by Soleran
It just really sounds like more people need to read the news coverage of this event........................

"Hezbollah guerillas on Thursday lobbed dozens of Soviet-era Katyusha rockets into northern Israel. Rockets also landed in the northern port city of Haifa, which would mark the deepest point into Israel that Hezbollah rockets have ever reached, but Hezbollah denied that they fired the rockets." Thanks CNN!

"Despite the fact that several countries -- including the Unites States and Lebanon -- have said that the Lebanese government doesn't have the capacity to extend its authority into Hezbollah-held territory, Israel has blamed the Lebanese government for the violence and charged it with the soldiers' safe release." Thanks CNN!

Sucks for Lebanon but its their country why aren't they policing it to protect their citizens to begin with?

"Hezbollah, which enjoys substantial backing from Syria and Iran, is considered a terrorist organization by the United States and Israel. The group holds 23 of the 128 seats in Lebanon's parliament." Thanks CNN!

OMG look Syria and Iran !!!!!!!!! Iran doesn't even acknowledge Israel as a country just a bunch of Zionists and has said time and again they want to reclaim that land. Looks like they sent in lap dogs to stir up a pit fight huh?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/13/mideast/index.html

Just in case anyone else wants to read it the article in full at CNN! Maybe I should slap up a fox piece on it as well so I can appear more impartial though, lol.

If anything the article seems to be supporting the imagine of Isreal crossing the line in attacking Lebanon - especially as their attacks and threats have so far been far more harmful to Lebanon the nation rather then Hezbollah the terrorist organisation.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
If anything the article seems to be supporting the imagine of Isreal crossing the line in attacking Lebanon - especially as their attacks and threats have so far been far more harmful to Lebanon the nation rather then Hezbollah the terrorist organisation.


Maybe, but lets be honest here. Hezbollah is a part of the Lebanon nation, there isn't a way to say they aren't. Hell tthe Hezbollah are a part of the Govt there, Lebanon knows they are a militant group!

When Israel asked Lebanon to diffuse the situation themselves and disarm them, Lebanon said it couldn't and that it didn't want to send in it's military force to serve as a border guard to Israel's northern border!

It's pretty damn obvious someone went to pick a fight with Israel and they are going to get spanked, HARD. Egypt learned a tough lesson the same way...............Israel is a small country which cannot afford to be squimish and throw insults over their borders when its obvious other countries are prepared to do much MUCH more.

Originally posted by docb77
I myself am a believer in total war. If a situation calls for violence you give it the whole shebang and try to finish it as quickly as possible.

A tad extreme.

Basically saying that if a little violence will do, you might as well just do more. That's what serial killers think, "Well...I've killed one...might as well kill ten.".

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
A tad extreme.

Basically saying that if a little violence will do, you might as well just do more. That's what serial killers think, "Well...I've killed one...might as well kill ten.".

-AC


Huh...................comparing a serial killer's response to a "blietzkrieg" military effort vs a slow drawn out poke at them for years with a stick military effort.

Seems to be a strange comparison, strange indeed.

Originally posted by allofyousuckkk
It's the beginning of the third world war.

I think that this conflict has serious potential to escalade into a global conflict. It all depends, though. After all, Hezbollah is backed by Syria and Iran. If Israel decides to invade Syria (a bold move), Iran would definitely get involved, and if Iran gets involved, the U.S. and Russia will get involved (on different sides). This conflict could ignite a sitting powder keg.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
A tad extreme.

Basically saying that if a little violence will do, you might as well just do more. That's what serial killers think, "Well...I've killed one...might as well kill ten.".

-AC

Sorry, but I don't look at things from a serial killer POV (if you do that's disturbing). It's more like if a kid is facing a bully. You could just talk at him and hope he'll leave you alone, but if it comes to a fight you'll take a lot less damage if you give it your all instead of "fighting fair".

Originally posted by Soleran
Maybe, but lets be honest here. Hezbollah is a part of the Lebanon nation, there isn't a way to say they aren't. Hell tthe Hezbollah are a part of the Govt there, Lebanon knows they are a militant group!

When Israel asked Lebanon to diffuse the situation themselves and disarm them, Lebanon said it couldn't and that it didn't want to send in it's military force to serve as a border guard to Israel's northern border!

It's pretty damn obvious someone went to pick a fight with Israel and they are going to get spanked, HARD. Egypt learned a tough lesson the same way...............Israel is a small country which cannot afford to be squimish and throw insults over their borders when its obvious other countries are prepared to do much MUCH more.

Work on some internationalism. Hezbollah is a rogue terrorist group. Everytime Isreal gets hit they whine like no other and then continues militaristic policies that encourage future violence.

It is not Isreal's position to "spank" anyone. There are international laws. International airports are civilian targets. Naval blockades are blatant acts of war. Isreal would already have a clear sanction aganst them if that idiot tool Bolton and the president you appointed them were gone.

Isreal is the one thats agressive. They are the one with their armies in foreign nations. I personally wish the United States would backhand Isreal and withdraw thier support for them. YOu act so tough, like you're the good guy. Wake up and realize the situation is not one sided. This whole incident is outrageous and wouldn't mind if Isreal was crushed. Right now I feel they deserve nothing less. Have you listend to Olmert? Hes as bad as Ahmadinejad.

Isreal better afford to learn that thay are not the only people in the world and that terrorist attacks are nto the way to resolve problems. Its not being squeamish, its being a mature, rational adult.

Originally posted by Alliance
Work on some internationalism. Hezbollah is a rogue terrorist group. Everytime Isreal gets hit they whine like no other and then continues militaristic policies that encourage future violence.

It is not Isreal's position to "spank" anyone. There are international laws. International airports are civilian targets. Naval blockades are blatant acts of war. Isreal would already have a clear sanction aganst them if that idiot tool Bolton and the president you appointed them were gone.

Isreal is the one thats agressive. They are the one with their armies in foreign nations. I personally wish the United States would backhand Isreal and withdraw thier support for them. YOu act so tough, like you're the good guy. Wake up and realize the situation is not one sided. This whole incident is outrageous and wouldn't mind if Isreal was crushed. Right now I feel they deserve nothing less. Have you listend to Olmert? Hes as bad as Ahmadinejad.

Isreal better afford to learn that thay are not the only people in the world and that terrorist attacks are nto the way to resolve problems. Its not being squeamish, its being a mature, rational adult.

Wow, are you out of touch.
Lebanon is a puppet government for two factions-Syria and Hizbollah-which is considered the world's most powerful terrorist group but is in actuallity more like a paramilitary wing for Iran. They recieve approximatly ten massive planeloads of weapons from Iran a year. Israel cut off their supply after a military attack on the port city of Haifa which has a population of nearly a million people. Hamas is a terrorist organization with a lot of populist support due to its running of palestinian infrastructure thanks to retards like Arafat, the PLO, and Fatah. The other actors involved are Al Qaida which despite being opposed by Hizbollah is trying to forge an alliance against a common enemy with little success. And the Kachanists-Israeli terrorist groups like the JDL who are willing to kill thousands of Jews with nerve gas in order to frame arab terrorists and bring about government action to wipe out arabs from israel.

Wow. You really think anything that you said justifies Isreals actions?

um, yeah. Lebanon made a first strike. Israel cutoff their supply route. That's called good, justifiable military strategy.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
And as I asked in the hypothetical earlier "if some US terrorist cell (and we know they exist) kidnapped a Mexican soldier - now does Mexico have a just cause to cross the border and start bombing parts of US cities until they kill the terrorists/free their soldier?"

Maybe not if the USA just kidnapped a soldier, however that wasn't the only action taken. Israel was fired on from Lebanon with a multitude of missiles........................seriously I am no expert here but READ. If the USA had the cajones to fire missiles at Mexico as well as take a soldier they would get into a conflict wouldn't you suspect?



Some nations are less strict....................lol dude once again the Hezbollah have around 30 plus seats in the current parliament. THEY are the Govt, and the rest of Lebanon CHOSE to do nothing to control them....................



Yeah its never good to start bombing make sure Lebanon learns these rules as well...............once again missile strike from Lebanon hit Israel. Lebanon engaged Israel, Israel went in and hit targets that had potential military value.............bridges, airports, sources of power.



No, what you're failing to grasp here is that Lebanon knew of the potential threat as well as Israel. Israel and other countries asked Lebanon to do something to control it before it got out of hand, Lebanon chose not to and added insult to injury by saying we aren't going to protect your borders when it all actuality people were just asking Lebanon to police their own country.............



You sir, need to stop talking until you read more facts. I am sure I will learn more on this as the days pass, however you apparently are approaching this from one side, Lebanon's side. Poor poor Lebanon victimized, poor poor Lebanon................lets see Israel hit with a barrage of missiles in a civilian section.......................Israel before bombing drops fliers stating they are going to be bombing in an hour so get out or lose it........................yeah I can see Israel's intentions as just wanting to destroy civilian populations.................whatever.

The historic and religious reasons for Middle East conflict can be argued either way as to who is right. What we know/have observed is this:

Most of the Arab world does not want peace with Israel. Period. It wants Israel wiped off the face of the Earth. They don't want a two-state solution: everytime Israel has made either bilateral or unilateral overtures, the Arabs reneg. There will never be peace/two-state solution until the Arab mindset changes. To believe otherwise--however benevolently and magnanimously intended--is simply misguided.

When Palestinians/Hamas/Hezbollah don't attack Israel, Israel 1) does not attack them; and 2) Palestinians begin to prosper.

Unless you have lived in Israel, unless you know what it's like to go about your everyday business, surrounded by enemies, always wondering if today is the day you or someone you love is going to be blown apart by a suicide bomber, you are in no position to judge Israel's actions. You may think you are, but you're not. What's happening now is terrible, but before you get on your anti-war/anti-Israel soapbox, walk a mile in Israel's moccasins.

Bottom line: of all countries in the Middle East, in which would you be most free and most likely to prosper?

Like America, Israel does not have blood-free hands. But plainly put, they are Not the Bad Guys.

(BTW, as for why Israel had to go into Lebanon: this is because of how terrorists fight...)

Originally posted by Mindship
The historic and religious reasons for Middle East conflict can be argued either way as to who is right. What we know/have observed is this:

Most of the Arab world does not want peace with Israel. Period. It wants Israel wiped off the face of the Earth. They don't want a two-state solution: everytime Israel has made either bilateral or unilateral overtures, the Arabs reneg. There will never be peace/two-state solution until the Arab mindset changes. To believe otherwise--however benevolently and magnanimously intended--is simply misguided.

When Palestinians/Hamas/Hezbollah don't attack Israel, Israel 1) does not attack them; and 2) Palestinians begin to prosper.

Unless you have lived in Israel, unless you know what it's like to go about your everyday business, surrounded by enemies, always wondering if today is the day you or someone you love is going to be blown apart by a suicide bomber, you are in no position to judge Israel's actions. You may think you are, but you're not. What's happening now is terrible, but before you get on your anti-war/anti-Israel soapbox, walk a mile in Israel's moccasins.

Bottom line: of all countries in the Middle East, in which would you be most free and most likely to prosper?

Like America, Israel does not have blood-free hands. But plainly put, they are Not the Bad Guys.

(BTW, as for why Israel had to go into Lebanon: this is because of how terrorists fight...)

I just heard a thousand thoughts explode.

Originally posted by Soleran
Maybe not if the USA just kidnapped a soldier, however that wasn't the only action taken. Israel was fired on from Lebanon with a multitude of missiles........................seriously I am no expert here but READ. If the USA had the cajones to fire missiles at Mexico as well as take a soldier they would get into a conflict wouldn't you suspect?

No, not America, a terrorist organisation operating without the consent of the government from American soil. And so far no one, not even the US, has claimed that Hezbollah is acting with the approval of the Lebanese government - in fact they have said the opposite.



Yes, and some nations outlaw groups and it is a crime to be a part of them, others don't and you can still get a job. As above - no one is saying Lebanon endorses the actions of Hezbolla, in fact all quotes coming from Western nations seems to be the opposite.



No Lebanon didn't bomb Israel - a terrorist organisation did, and ultimately Israel is, in terms of international conventions, in the wrong in how they responded. And targets being struck are not inherently terrorist in nature, but Lebanese - as you said, brides, the air port, power stations - it isn't hurting the terrorists doing the firing, if anything it is helping them as the people get angry and other nations condemn Israel for attacking targets of a civilian nature with no links to the terrorists in question.



There is a difference in out right refusing and being unable to effectively do it. But once again, as cynical as it sounds, it is Lebanon's right/responsibility to approach the situation as they deem fit. Just like the US hasn't pressed Saudi Arabia over how they deal with Al-Quedia, or Jordan/Libya and so on. It would have been better to approach Lebanon in a diplomatic sense. I can think of nothing that would make a nation less inclined to help another then to have the nation in need start bombing because they don't like your attitude or the way you approach the situation.





No, I am not on Lebanon's side in which you imply, but I am looking at it from a practical perspective. Both sides are being problematic, and it is costing lives. But I am aware of the facts, and I know that virtually no nation is supporting the way Israel is handling it - even the US, usually the most forgiving when it comes to Israel, has said that Israel needs to use restraint. Nor am I saying that Israel is deliberately targeting civilians, but the fact is that of the 50+ people that have been killed in Lebanon, virtually none of them are terrorists (wait, I don't think a single one has been identified as such) - the whole plan is to bomb an area where Hezbollah are known to have hid - amongst a dense civilian population. Likewise blockading ports, bombing brides and airports - how exactly is this getting at the terrorists?

Israel has had wrong done to it - but this does not give it free reign to respond as they wish. For once Rice seems to be talking from a rational view point - restraint is needed. Lets not do anything rash - I ask, in all seriousness, for those who endorse the Israeli retaliation - what do you think it will achieve? You speak of teaching Lebanon, which might be ok if they were in a more definite state of wrong doing but as they aren't all it is doing is whipping up anti-Israeli sentiment, and sapping national support for the Israeli predicament.

Once again I empathise that I feel for the Israeli position, but it because I feel for it that I will say they are doing themselves no favours acting like this.

Originally posted by docb77
I myself am a believer in total war. If a situation calls for violence you give it the whole shebang and try to finish it as quickly as possible. My god, Mr T pities you.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
No, not America, a terrorist organisation operating without the consent of the government from American soil.

You don't seem to let this sink in apparently, the Hezbollah are a part of the govt! Not some 3rd party that has no affiliation with Lebanon other then its residence. It's a part of the GOVT!



Whatever Lebanon does endorse or doesn't, the Hezbollah are a part of the govt. They are known terrorists and if Lebanon cannot properly police it's own country and this terrorist group acts out to another country its clear action must be taken outside of the Lebanon govt, they have no control and can do nothing about their own problem which is now an international problem.





Lebanon cannot control the Hezbollah, they have even said that. Or they said they could but it's not right for Lebanon to keep troops on its southern border just to keep Israel's border safe. Hmmm which one is it, and if it really is the second reason that means they had the power they just didn't take action, their fault and Israel suffered and took it as a military action.



Once again who attacked who again? An open military attack deliberatly aimed on civilian targets................once again you are blind if you try to remotely compare Israel's actions to Lebanon's.



It's getting at the entire country of Lebanon, stop dissassociating Hezbollah with Lebanon, they are one faction in the Govt of the country.

Is violence the answer? It's ugly but regardless Israel is constantly under attack and has extended peace offerings in the past and they are shot down and then more bombings occur. This incident isn't isolated stop acting as though this is all about civilians, if it were and their lives meant so much terrorists would stop using them, and they won't.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
I didn't call them a terrorist state, merely commented on how their tactics could be seen as similar to terrorist ones. Yes, they dropped leaflets, but how many actual terrorists have they killed compared to civilians? How many terrorist installations have they damaged compared to non-terrorist ones? And how does blockading ports and doing things to the airport go after terrorist targets? It doesn't - it is a way of using fear of the Israeli military to get a response from the Government/people of Lebanon, and as I said, there is a distinct similarity in such tactics.


Blockading ports and bombing airports and highways cuts off Lebanese terrorists from their Syrian allies. It's a strategic move on Israel's part. Until the Lebanese gov't does something about the terrorism in their country, Israel has every right to make moves against those people attacking them and that includes cutting off their supply lines.


Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
And as I asked in the hypothetical earlier "if some US terrorist cell (and we know they exist) kidnapped a Mexican soldier - now does Mexico have a just cause to cross the border and start bombing parts of US cities until they kill the terrorists/free their soldier?"


No, but if that happened surely the U.S. government would do everything in their power to try and get that Mexican soldier back as to calm nerves and preserve positive relations with the country. Lebanon has already said they don't want to commit resources to aid Israel by hunting down terrorists, so they have to go in themselves and take care of things. Israel has tried diplomacy with its neighbors plenty, and I believe they are just fed up. I think it was a bold move on Israel's part but I also think they had every right to do what they did

Destryoing international airports and bombing Palestinian government offices are over the line. Naval blockades are over the line. Isreal needs to learn some self control and that the have a huge responsibility in the region.

Soleran, Hezbollah is NOT the entire fricking governemnt. Just becuase there are terrorists in the nation doesnt mean that the nation is a terrorist state. Isreal is killing civilians all over the place so Mindship you can keep your twisted propoganda.

Olmert's comments about destroying all infrastructure and takint Lebanon back 20 years...thats WAY over the line. This is totally unjustified. I'm not saying that Hebollah was right to kidnap two soldiers, but Isreal should know better than this bloodthirst.

The international community is against Isreal on this. There is a reason for that. My support for Isreal has erroded immensely because of this. Many people feel the same. They acting no better than the terrorist.

Originally posted by Alliance
Destryoing international airports and bombing Palestinian government offices are over the line. Naval blockades are over the line. Isreal needs to learn some self control and that the have a huge responsibility in the region.

Soleran, Hezbollah is NOT the entire fricking governemnt. Just becuase there are terrorists in the nation doesnt mean that the nation is a terrorist state. Isreal is killing civilians all over the place so Mindship you can keep your twisted propoganda.

Olmert's comments about destroying all infrastructure and takint Lebanon back 20 years...thats WAY over the line. This is totally unjustified. I'm not saying that Hebollah was right to kidnap two soldiers, but Isreal should know better than this bloodthirst.

The international community is against Isreal on this. There is a reason for that. My support for Isreal has erroded immensely because of this. Many people feel the same. They acting no better than the terrorist.

What level of action would you deem appropriate?

Originally posted by Morgoths_Wrath
What level of action would you deem appropriate? Dancing.

Where's a Bardock42 post on this topic yet anyway, he posts his opinion frequently in all threads that pop up in the GDF!

So if dancing is your answer do you mean like Dancing on their graves? Dancing in the streets? Dancing with some hot chick at a bar with to many drinks and your not sure how you're going to get home?

Originally posted by Soleran
Where's a Bardock42 post on this topic yet anyway, he posts his opinion frequently in all threads that pop up in the GDF!

So if dancing is your answer do you mean like Dancing on their graves? Dancing in the streets? Dancing with some hot chick at a bar with to many drinks and your not sure how you're going to get home? Streets.

Originally posted by Morgoths_Wrath
What level of action would you deem appropriate?

I can see some local retaliton. Hezbollah's main area of operation is in the South, along the border.

Technically, no retaliation would be the best option. But I understand their situation and I can give them a bit of leeway.

Though, giving everyone a night out at the discotecas woudl be a good solution

Isreal must forget that Hezbollah developed mainly as a response to the Isreali occupation of Lebanon. RE-occubying the southern part of Lebanon is not going to imporve the situation, let alone solve anything.

In fact, to me it painfully obvious that the sitation is going to continuosly deteriorate, especialyl because neither Isreal nor the US can reisist implicating Syria and Iran. I think the destrction of the Egypt-Palestine gate and the flood of more people with terrorist intentions into Palestine from Egypt is evidence about how this is the WRONG path.

Originally posted by Soleran
Where's a Bardock42 post on this topic yet anyway, he posts his opinion frequently in all threads that pop up in the GDF!

Well thank you for this nice intro, I decided not to post in this thread before, since I have to admit I don't know all that happens with it, it's still pretty new. But from what I have gathered so far, I think it's an unjustified war and I think Israel, once more, uses shallow reasons to satisfy their egoistical needs. And I think the only action a Western country can take is to take the side of the Lebanon and to make Israel stop attacking their neighbouring countries for no just reasons.

Originally posted by Bardock42
And I think the only action a Western country can take is to take the side of the Lebanon and to make Israel stop attacking their neighbouring countries for no just reasons.

I just wish they'd be more expedient about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Israel-Lebanon_crisis#Attacks_on_Israel

Originally posted by Bardock42
I think the only action a Western country can take is to take the side of the Lebanon and to make Israel stop attacking their neighbouring countries for no just reasons.


For no "just" reasons, lol.

Do you think Isreal using there superior military are right to attack the East Asia minor or are the Hamas Hezbolah wrong in committing terror assualts on any Westerner.

Originally posted by Soleran
For no "just" reasons, lol.

Originally posted by Alliance



That's exactly my point, glad you received a bit of clarity on the subject finally

No. I'm laughing at you thinking Isreal's reasons are jsutified/rational and not just insane.

Originally posted by Alliance
No. I'm laughing at you thinking Isreal's reasons are jsutified/rational and not just insane.

Yeah crazy me, if Germany had mortars and missiles launched at it from a neighboring country while a ground unit was infilitrating its borders and taking hostages, I doubt whether they would consider that an act of war. Germany would send over some schnitzel and a bar maid.

Yeah crazy me, if China had mortars and missiles launched at it from a neighboring country while a ground unit was infilitrating its borders and taking hostages, I doubt whether they would consider that an act of war. China would probably send over some stir fry and a thank you.

Yeah crazy me, if Russia had mortars and missiles launched at it from a neighboring country while a ground unit was infilitrating its borders and taking hostages, I doubt whether they would consider that an act of war. Russia would probably send over some borsch and vodka.

Yeah crazy me, if the USA had mortars and missiles launched at it from a neighboring country while a ground unit was infilitrating its borders and taking hostages, I doubt whether they would consider that an act of war. USA would send over a huge howdy and some hooters girls.

Wow did we notice a trend there, I think so. When a neighboring country decides to drop missiles in your country and run ops typically you are looking at what are considered acts of war, get it?

Originally posted by Alliance
I can see some local retaliton. Hezbollah's main area of operation is in the South, along the border.

Technically, no retaliation would be the best option. But I understand their situation and I can give them a bit of leeway.

Though, giving everyone a night out at the discotecas woudl be a good solution

Isreal must forget that Hezbollah developed mainly as a response to the Isreali occupation of Lebanon. RE-occubying the southern part of Lebanon is not going to imporve the situation, let alone solve anything.

In fact, to me it painfully obvious that the sitation is going to continuosly deteriorate, especialyl because neither Isreal nor the US can reisist implicating Syria and Iran. I think the destrction of the Egypt-Palestine gate and the flood of more people with terrorist intentions into Palestine from Egypt is evidence about how this is the WRONG path.

I think the sad fact of the matter is that there will be no peace in the Middle-East while Israel is around. They're not welcome in the neighborhood, and they either need to deal with the taunts and the slings or they need to fight.

Originally posted by Morgoths_Wrath
I think the sad fact of the matter is that there will be no peace in the Middle-East while Israel is around. They're not welcome in the neighborhood, and they either need to deal with the taunts and the slings or they need to fight. Which seems to be what they're doing... fighting. ermm

Originally posted by Soleran
Wow did we notice a trend there, I think so. When a neighboring country decides to drop missiles in your country and run ops typically you are looking at what are considered acts of war, get it?

But that is the problem, IF the neighbouring country was involved then Israel would have JUST CAUSE to act this way - but the government is not involved, and thus the nation is not involved, and thus just cause does not rest with Israel. In a world of political definition, Israel is acting the aggressor as it is attacking the assets of a nation that is not implicitly involved with terrorist activities - they can say they are after terrorists all they want, but it doesn't improve their position. Lebanon is not Afghanistan - they are not aiding the terrorists, they are not hiding them, or helping them in their attacks.

I guess everybody remembers that when Bush and co. were talking about giving certain nations (the US being one of them) the power to go into another nation and deal with its terrorists that it was universally shot down by every nation, west and east? That Israel said no as well? It is relevant to this matter, and I guess you can see why.

And as to "acts of war" - since war can only be declared by declaration or actions by one nation on another, Lebanon has not declared war. However acts such as the blockading of ports are usually in conventional terms deemed acts of war - Lebanon is actually showing a lot of restraint (or perhaps fear) for not retaliating as a nation, which actually would be their right, especially as it appears they have the majority of national support, both in the Middle East and beyond.



No, Bardock42 is right - Israel has no grounds in international law to be acting as they are, in fact they are in danger of breaking some. You seem to be stuck on saying "but they were bombed from another nation" - this does not equal being bombed *by* Lebanon. Understand? It does not, just like the US can't declare war on Libya and Saudi Arabia because people from there have left their nations and are being terrorists in Iraq.

"Illegal detention of citizens of other countries justifies bombing airports"...... Guantanamo.

Originally posted by Morgoths_Wrath
I think the sad fact of the matter is that there will be no peace in the Middle-East while Israel is around. They're not welcome in the neighborhood, and they either need to deal with the taunts and the slings or they need to fight. The world can not be reduced to a giant playground.
And if it could Israel would be the bully.

Originally posted by Morgoths_Wrath
I think the sad fact of the matter is that there will be no peace in the Middle-East while Israel is around. They're not welcome in the neighborhood, and they either need to deal with the taunts and the slings or they need to fight.

If they fight they won;t be around long. THe US is in no position to be thier military for them.

Soleran. Please. Quit being delusional. HEZBOLLAH IS NOT THE LEBANESE GOVERNMENT. Get over it. They kidnapped two soldiers, Isreal esentailly started a scorched earth open war against a terrorist organization. They ask the Lebanese government, which has been in power for only a year, to magically tame a radical islamic group, while they bomb the nation. Please. Isrela is actic physchotic. Its liek killing a child for taking candy.

Isreal's belligerancy formed Hesbollah...after this, I wouldn't be surprised if Hesbollah took control of the governement after this. All compliments of Isreal. The state that couldn't control itself.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
"Illegal detention of citizens of other countries justifies bombing airports"...... Guantanamo.

The world can not be reduced to a giant playground.
And if it could Israel would be the bully.

Are you serious? Israel is more like a bear that when poked, mauls you. Overreaction, yeah, but they're not a 'bully'. They don't even go out looking for fights or pick on anyone until you start to kill it's soldiers and fire rockets into it's cities.

Once again I believe you need to go back and reread what happened in the initial conflict. It was more then just kidnapping 2 soldiers. That said Israel made a strong play after the Hezbollah did their thing.

Now more importantly Scimitar left up some terrific information as well that leads to United Nations Security Council Resolution 1559. Read that then please just stop you sound like a half read media wanna be.

These actions were set in place before the last couple days actions, wake up smell the coffee Syria and Iran back these terrorists, fairly openly I might add. Lebanon unfortunetly was the pawn to the others and Israel had to first and formost treat them like a military threat and take out anything that could possibly benefit this group from their allies. In all actuality Lebanon might not even be a pawn but more of a mercy puppet to Syria and Iran to further their Jihad and garner public and international support.

Until more plays out I am certainly not going to take shots at Israel for doing what they felt they had to do considering there is no DMZ and the Hezballoh obviously has the capability to drop missiles on Israels northern cities now and not only the capability the DESIRE to.

Originally posted by Soleran
Once again I believe you need to go back and reread what happened in the initial conflict. It was more then just kidnapping 2 soldiers. That said Israel made a strong play after the Hezbollah did their thing.

Now more importantly Scimitar left up some terrific information as well that leads to United Nations Security Council Resolution 1559. Read that then please just stop you sound like a half read media wanna be.

These actions were set in place before the last couple days actions, wake up smell the coffee Syria and Iran back these terrorists, fairly openly I might add. Lebanon unfortunetly was the pawn to the others and Israel had to first and formost treat them like a military threat and take out anything that could possibly benefit this group from their allies. In all actuality Lebanon might not even be a pawn but more of a mercy puppet to Syria and Iran to further their Jihad and garner public and international support.

Until more plays out I am certainly not going to take shots at Israel for doing what they felt they had to do considering there is no DMZ and the Hezballoh obviously has the capability to drop missiles on Israels northern cities now and not only the capability the DESIRE to.
I know what happened. I over simplified. Just like you have.

I know about the UN sanction against lebanon concerning Hezbollah. Yest, you continue not to respond to my information and simply label me a "half read media wanna be." Well, I have news for you. I'm not here to slander, I'm here to debate, so if you arent going to respond to my counter information and simply just attack me, stop wasting my and your time.

These actions were set in place before the last couple days actions, wake up smell the coffee Hezbollah is not the Lebanese govenrmet, a fact visible to everyone except for Isreal. Lebanon unfortunetly has a government that is a year old and barely has control of tiself, let alone militant terrorists. Israel had to first and formost treat them like a neighbor. Isreal needs to realize that they catalyzed the formation of Hezbollah by invading Lebanon. I can't bear to think what will happen this time around. Maybe Hezbollah will take control of the Lebanese governement, just like Hamas in Palestine. Even the US is giving support to Isreal. THAT shoudl be a wake up call to you and Isreal.

I don't knwo what you're waiting to play out, do you need open war? Isreal is WAY over the line. I don't know any nation in the world that hasn't said that ISREAL has way overreacted. Isreal continues to claim that no amount of force is a dispropotionate response to the kidnappings. (and yes they only referenced the kidnappings)

Lebanon is a puppet country, the attacks on the infrastructure were to targets that have value to not only civilian but to military units as well.

Seeing as the backers of the Hezbollah are Syria and Iran and that UN Council Resolutions did nothing to prompt change this is obviously going to be the hard road to travel for all of them.

Lebanon cant control Hezbollah. Hezbollah's military wing is bigger and better more powerful than the Lebanese army. Hezbollah militants are in the south.

Beiruit's Airport is not a major military target. Nor are roads and bridges. Thats infrastructure. Does Hezbollah have a navy? No. Then why the blockade.

If its so Syria's and Irans fault. Why not attack them? Isreal isn't concerned about solving the situation. Its bloodthirst.

Originally posted by Alliance
Lebanon cant control Hezbollah. Hezbollah's military wing is bigger and better more powerful than the Lebanese army. Hezbollah militants are in the south.

Beiruit's Airport is not a major military target. Nor are roads and bridges. Thats infrastructure. Does Hezbollah have a navy? No. Then why the blockade.

If its so Syria's and Irans fault. Why not attack them? Isreal isn't concerned about solving the situation. Its bloodthirst.


Airports, roads, bridges, ports are all supply lines. If Hezbollah has a larger army then Lebanon (proper) where do its supplies come from if its just a terrorist group? How does it get rockets and missiles with ranges of what 45 miles? How about its remotely guided planes with detonation charges?

Once again your looking at a very small picture here with just the Hezbollah attacks. Hezbollah are backed by Syria and Iran, thats where they get upgraded arms and such.

Ever wonder why it seems no matter how many bombs get dropped there seems to be no Hezbollah victims just civillians? Thats because the Hezbollah dress like civilians but to ploy for a larger international appeal it appears as increased civilian casualties. Make no bones there are civilian losses here but its being scewed.

There is little solid evidence that Lebanon is a "puppet country"- it most certainly has a past with Syria, but at this point in time it is a democratic nation that has moved some way from Syria as is far more autonomous and independent now - or are we forgetting all that trouble that happened when the Pro-Syrian Lobby was unable to get a solid control of the Lebanese government during the last election? In fact, if these US analysts we keep seeing on TV and in the newspaper here are telling the truth it goes something like this (paraphrased):

"The US is in a bad position, as they are faced with a choice of fully supporting Israels actions against Lebanon, despite the promising progress Lebanon was making in democratically distancing itself from the Syrian/Iranian alliance - with certain figures believing Lebanon could eventually be come a pro-western backer."

And it has been said before - it is a civilian airport, used by civilians. The Israelis could actually bomb actual Lebanese airforce bases, but they aren't - they keep attacking a civilian airport. And as Alliance said - Hezbollah have no navy, so there is hardly any reason to blockade the ports. Likewise the Israeli threats about sending the nation back 20 years - that hardly sounds like being directed at just the terrorists.

The defense people are throwing up that Israel is attacking targets that could be used militarily is bizarre - when first, they aren't at war with Lebanon (apparently only being after terrorists), second there are actual military targets they could attack but don't and third as there are no links between the terrorists and the airport/ports.



Hezbollah are using Katyusha rockets that are Russian in design origin and mostly outdated - effective, but outdated. Nor is there any proof that Hezbollah makes use of the transport network to the degree that Israel is justified in bombing it despite it being civilian in nature.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The Lebanese government and its civilians "poked the bear"? Because they're the ones being attacked without provocation by said government and civilians.

If it's a bear it's a bear that needs to be restrained. Yes. But the anology stands - you poke the bear and it'll maul you (And probably others) until you're dead... an analogy for the obvious overkill.

Originally posted by Alliance
Lebanon cant control Hezbollah. Hezbollah's military wing is bigger and better more powerful than the Lebanese army. Hezbollah militants are in the south.

Beiruit's Airport is not a major military target. Nor are roads and bridges. Thats infrastructure. Does Hezbollah have a navy? No. Then why the blockade.

If its so Syria's and Irans fault. Why not attack them? Isreal isn't concerned about solving the situation. Its bloodthirst. Do you want to attack Israel?

Hezbollah actually holds seats in the Leboneese government. I don't know why he keeps saying they're seperate.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The Lebanese government has no power over the Hezbollah guerrilla forces.

Hezbollah holds seats in the Leboneese Government. It's part of the government.

Hezbollah has a stronger military than the Lebanese government. Lebanon does not need to start a civil war in addition to the one Isreal started.

Originally posted by Alliance
No. But they are the clear agressor in this scenario, despite the fact that Hezbollah "started" it.



Because they are. They are a political party. They are also a terrorist group. Nothing more nothing less. Get it?

There is a socialist senator, Bernie Sanders (I) Vermont. Does this mean that the US government is socialst? I think not! Is there a terrorist group of socialists whose army is bigger and more powerful than the U.S. Militaries. ermm I think not!

Originally posted by Alliance
Yeah. They're called scenarios. They are different for different countries. Well this isn't a scenario, this is real. Lebanon's army is smaller than Hezbollah, which holds seats in it's government to begin with. That's the reality.

ARGH. OK.

My example was a comparison. You seem to be unable to undestand that just because there is a political party, one that grew out of a militant organization, it is not the government. My example attempted to help you to understand.

Every international community except fo Isreal draws a line of distinction. Hezbollah is not the Lebanese governement.

Israel is cleanin house.

Yeah, they're gettin rid of all their old weapons so the US can give them new ones.

Israel has it's social problems and i'm not saying abuses don't happen, but the fact is that due to a prevalent antisemitic undertone in global politics, particularly from the UN, Israel is judged by a higher standard than any other country. Any other nation would have bombed the shit out of lebanon and syria 17 years ago and gotten rid of arafat back when he invented the whole notion of terrorism targetting civillians in the 60's

I wonder if this whole mess will spreads to syria and maybe iran

Originally posted by Osaka
I wonder if this whole mess will spreads to syria and maybe iran

Iran would love that

People seem to be going mad and believing this will lead to WWIII, does anyone else here share the sentiment? Why? Why not?

It seems there are some politically inclined folks here, so I'm hoping to get a genuine response rather than "OH NO! FIGHTINGS! WAR!".

-AC

Whether or not one agrees with what's happening, those who understand Israel's response reason from observation and history.
Those who do not understand, and condemn, reason from speculation.

There is a difference between a response, which is justified by Isreal's history...and startign a war.

Originally posted by Alliance
There is a difference between a response, which is justified by Isreal's history...and startign a war.


It's always a sad day when terrorists hide behind inocents and create such a stir in the world.

There is no negotiating with groups such as Hezbollah, there is no lets make peace. Their intentions are very clear and they are very vocal about it and have been since before these altercations on Wed and Thur.

It would appear that both Syria and Iran are using the Hezbollah as an "independant" tool to further their means and doing this through the poor Lebanese.

Seriously you need to stop with the justified part. Is any violence really justified? One thing that is very clear though is that the Lebanon govt cannot stop the Hezbollah, the Hezbollah are a part of the govt and will act to their own will without reprisal in the Lebanese govt. So who pays the price, up until now it has been Israel, now its the unfortunate Lebanese innocents.

Its a shame some of the "almighty" UN sanctions didn't work, then this would have never taken place huh.

It sounds like you've definitely thought it out, but then again you have to remember that it's not just like having a fist fight, a world war would be serious business and I seriously doubt that ANYONE is willing to just dive into a situation that might cause one.

-AC

The lengths fellow members of our race can go to achieve their goals; however, misguided never ceases to astound me...

I have little faith that humanity will have the intelligence to realize World War is not the way to go. Then again I'm bias because I lost faith in humanity awhile ago.

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/6797/sign7bz.png

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It sounds like you've definitely thought it out, but then again you have to remember that it's not just like having a fist fight, a world war would be serious business and I seriously doubt that ANYONE is willing to just dive into a situation that might cause one.

-AC

I agree, and I also think that Israel knows what the consequences would be for attacking Syria, not only in regard to themselves but on a bigger scale that includes their allies and the possibility of global escalation. And while Israel's actions in recent days have been interpreted as extremely aggressive and unfounded, I would certainly hope they won't go as far as to attack Syria, given the likely consequences of those actions.

Does anyone know anything about the 6 day war then?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
People seem to be going mad and believing this will lead to WWIII, does anyone else here share the sentiment? Why? Why not?

It seems there are some politically inclined folks here, so I'm hoping to get a genuine response rather than "OH NO! FIGHTINGS! WAR!".

-AC

I cant see WWIII breaking out because of a middle easy conflict. If anything I think WWIII will have to do with North Korea. Maybe China, for some reason, siding with N. Korea.

Originally posted by Soleran
Yes Well then it shouldn't be so far fetched to believe that Israel can take on more than one or two countries (Syria included) and win without military help from the West. They've done it before, they can do it again.

Originally posted by Morgoths_Wrath
...you think they could win against Syria AND Iran? They won one against Syria, Egypt, Jordan and I think Iraq was involved too.

It's highly unlikely they would win.

But the point is to avoid a war all together.

They fought three large armies (Combined, I believe they were in fact larger) and won, with a huge difference in casualty levels. So, I honestly have a bit more faith in Israel than you, or maybe others have.

You forgot Jordan.............and yes they crushed their enemies with a very minimal loss on their side and HUGE losses incurred by their enemeis and fought on 3 fronts! Freakin crazy.

Could they win, its very possible. Do they want to engage in such a large conflict again? Who knows, but if they do this time I VERY much doubt they will give back any territories they should enter into again.

For Israel its about their Air Force..............

Originally posted by Soleran
You forgot Jordan.............and yes they crushed their enemies with a very minimal loss on their side and HUGE losses incurred by their enemeis and fought on 3 fronts! Freakin crazy.

Could they win, its very possible. Do they want to engage in such a large conflict again? Who knows, but if they do this time I VERY much doubt they will give back any territories they should enter into again.

For Israel its about their Air Force.............. I said Jordan in another post above

Originally posted by Soleran
Woops

It's a good thing Iran isn't supporting the Hezbollah either!


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060715/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ israel_attacked_ship;_ylt=AgbLI5NWdvtZUopEOB47YIcU
ewgF;_ylu=X3oDMTA3b3JuZGZhBHNlYwM3MjE- Link doesn't work for me.

Originally posted by crazy
Thats what they would have you believe, they didnt have any help from the west, you think their weapons and all that just came out of nowhere? You think Syria's, Egypt's, Jordan's and Iraq's just came from nowhere?

We're all gonna die....cry

Originally posted by Morgoths_Wrath
...you think they could win against Syria AND Iran?



Do you realize how powerful Israel really is? We share technology with them, they have very very high tech weaponry and their army is highly trained.

If the middle east were to be taken and set on another planet Israel would be the super power. They also have nuclear capability and if worse comes to worse trust me they wouldnt hesitate to use it.

Israel has been fighting with its neighboring countries for thousands of years, war is a part of their life. Muslims constantly want to wipe Israel off the face of the planet because of conflicting religions. Israel has been very vigilant and resilient, they will not go down without a fight and I seriously doubt Syria and Iran want to tap what Israel is capable of.

Um....Isreal was formed in 1948. Thats when the fighting started. They don't openly have nukes and Isreal would be quite happy to see amyn Muslimd be wiped of the face of the earth.

Iran and Syrial would have no problem going to war. They have the upper hand. The US can't handle another conflict. Isreal would be in major trouble, despite your view that ISreal is magically a military superpower, even with US support.

Israel currently has the most poweful airforce in the world

thats right were gonna die

Originally posted by Alliance
Um....Isreal was formed in 1948. Thats when the fighting started. They don't openly have nukes and Isreal would be quite happy to see amyn Muslimd be wiped of the face of the earth.

Iran and Syrial would have no problem going to war. They have the upper hand. The US can't handle another conflict. Isreal would be in major trouble, despite your view that ISreal is magically a military superpower, even with US support.


Maybe you should do your research before you spout, Israel could handle themselves with or without the help of the United States in that conflict.

Their air force is superior, their training is superior, their technology is superior, their tanks are superior, their navy is superior.

And I was talking Israel as a people Israelites have been fighting Muslims for thousands of years, this isnt new to them. Granted they wouldnt mind seeing Muslims wiped off the face of the earth, they've taken enough abuse from terrorist organizations over the years and organizations that hide behind governments. You push a country far enough and this is what you get.

No magic involved, Israel is a military power.

Originally posted by Alliance
Um....Isreal was formed in 1948. Iran and Syrial would have no problem going to war. They have the upper hand. The US can't handle another conflict. Isreal would be in major trouble, despite your view that ISreal is magically a military superpower, even with US support.

Present-day Palestine was once Israel until it was conquered by the Romans.

While Iran and "Syrial" wouldn't have a problem going to war, Israel has the fifth most powerful military in the world. You put way to much faith in Iran/Syrial and too little in Israel.

Originally posted by SupezM'

And I was talking Israel as a people Israelites have been fighting Muslims for thousands of years, this isnt new to them.

Not sure where you keep getting this "thousands of years". That implies a lot of years. Israelites, in the way you are defining them, have about 3,000 years on them, yes. But Islam's formation only began in the 7th century, and they certainly have not been warring with Israel for all that time.

Be careful on who you go about instructing to do research.

There was a funny explanation of the Israel/Palestinian situation on Glenn Beck the other day. Anyone see it?

I dont watch commentary shows often.

Originally posted by §cimitar
Present-day Palestine was once Israel until it was conquered by the Romans.

While Iran and "Syrial" wouldn't have a problem going to war, Israel has the fifth most powerful military in the world. You put way to much faith in Iran/Syrial and too little in Israel.

Isreal was a nation formed without the support of the Arab League in 1948, setting of the most destabilizng geo-political conflict in modern times. My bets lie with the United States, currently the only nation that I see that would throw a sizeabel lifeline to Isreal.

If Syria, and Iran become involed, Iraq is in the center of the lions den. The US will not be able to fight both. And support from more US frienfly counties in the region is unlikely. I doubt Egypt, Turkey, and Pakinstan will help, Saudia Ariabia either.

We would be talking extreme casualties for the US. and keep in mind, terroist don't operate under international law (kind of like Isreal is doing now). If a war sarts...I fear genocide in Isreal if the terrorists break through the borders. The state would not survive.

This is not a place we need to be going.

Originally posted by SupezM'
No magic involved, Israel is a military power. Oh but there is magic involved. The magic of U.S. Foreign Military Financing grants, Economic Support Funds and the Excess Defence Articles program.

Yes...faeries bring weapons in the night!

Is anyone else sick of this bullshit or is it just me?

Israel designs and invents much of its own military technology. The United States is Israels largest trading partner, but its a two-way trading system. Although they arnt rich in natural resources they invent and manufacture many high tech devices, they are the world leader in software development. Although they do receive funding from the US their GDP in 2004 was $145 Billion and the funding received from the US goes down yearly.


All said, Israel has a strong economy and a very able and advanced military. Their Air Force alone is one to be reckoned with, as Hezbollah is finding out now.

During the 1990s the IAF upgraded most of its aircraft with advanced Israeli-made systems, improving the performances of the aircraft. In the 1990s the IAF also received the AH-64 Apache helicopter gunship and equipped its aircraft with the Rafael Python 4, Popeye and Darby advanced Israeli missiles.

In the new millennium, the IAF bought the F-15I Ra'am (Thunder) and the F-16I Sufa (Storm), two of the most advanced variants of the F-15 and F-16 fighter jets, manufactured specially for Israel according to the IAF requirements. The IAF has purchased 102 Sufa F-16I warplanes, the first planes arrived in April, 2004 (the IAF is the largest operator of F-16's after the US Air Force).

The IAF also purchased the advanced Israeli air-to-air missile Rafael Python 5, with full-sphere capability, considered among the best in its field. The IAF also purchased a special version of the Apache Longbow, marked "AH-64DI" and known as "Saraf". During 2005 the Israeli Air Force received special "Gulfstream V" jets (known as "Nachshon", modified with the newest and most advanced intelligence systems in the world, all made by Israeli Military Industries.


All in all, its a war that no one except for maybe Iran wants to get involved in, they will find themselves in a very devestating war.

FMF is increasing in 2007 and '08.

U.S. money also goes into Israel's domestic arms R&D.

Most U.S. loans to Israel are eventually forgiven. Between '94 and '98 alone Israel received $29 billion in forgiven loans.

And Israel has received over $90 billion in aid from the U.S. since it's conception, which doesn't take into account a lot of military aid and waived loans.

Yes, Israel has always been entirely self-sufficient and would be where it is today without aid from the U.S.

Originally posted by docb77
There was a funny explanation of the Israel/Palestinian situation on Glenn Beck the other day. Anyone see it?
glenn beck? the guy who routinely outcoulters coulter?

Originally posted by Alliance
keep in mind, terroist don't operate under international law (kind of like Isreal is doing now). If a war sarts...I fear genocide in Isreal if the terrorists break through the borders. The state would not survive.

Laws are only effective if they are acknowledged and since we can both agree terrorists don't acknowledge them they are pretty useless. They do nothing but serve to tie Israel's hands and allow terrorists to essentially function without effective ways to stop them.

Israel decided that for it to secure a safe northern border and protect its citizens they had to stop the terrorists.

If a war starts? It's already started, and believe me Israel wouldn't have come out swinging if they didn't think they were going to win regardless of Iran and Syria. They already know the Hamas and Hezbollah are supported by those countries as it stands now.

Originally posted by Soleran
Laws are only effective if they are acknowledged and since we can both agree terrorists don't acknowledge them they are pretty useless. They do nothing but serve to tie Israel's hands and allow terrorists to essentially function without effective ways to stop them.So governments should just ignore the law too obviously. How does breaking the Fourth Geneva Convention help to fight terrorists...
Originally posted by Soleran
Israel decided that for it to secure a safe northern border and protect its citizens they had to stop the terrorists.

If a war starts? It's already started, and believe me Israel wouldn't have come out swinging if they didn't think they were going to win regardless of Iran and Syria. They already know the Hamas and Hezbollah are supported by those countries as it stands now. So uberlogically they attack Lebanese civilian infrastructure.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
So governments should just ignore the law too obviously. How does breaking the Fourth Geneva Convention help to fight terrorists...

How does following the 4th rule keep the terrorists from continuing their violence?



Tell me whats the purpose of ports, airports, bridges/roads and powerplants?

i know this is gonna sound weird, but i always take the side of the jews, seeing as how they dont have suicide bombers and all, but damn, this looks like they had something in the works,and the kidnappings just provided them with the perfect opportunity to invade. next thing you know, Iran will be goaded into aiding the arabs, and then thegood ol predictable US will jump in and say its time for a regime change in both syria and Iran and send more of our pretty stretched thin troops over there.----then we would really get the oil..thats just simply brilliant sure a few thousand lives will be sacrificed, but when we pull up at the pump and gas is $1.10, like it was back in 98-99. then it will make all our pain go away--ahhhh
(btw sorry if somebody posted somethng similar, i didnt bother to read all 200 pages)

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
So governments should just ignore the law too obviously. How does breaking the Fourth Geneva Convention help to fight terrorists...
So uberlogically they attack Lebanese civilian infrastructure.

When a country launches attacks on your country on a daily basis for several years, that's a pretty good excuse to go to war.

Originally posted by Soleran
Tell me whats the purpose of ports, airports, bridges/roads and powerplants?

Everyone in the country is not a fricking terrorist. Everyone uses those structures. Would plowing up your local gas station help stike agaisnt the ELF? NO. The terrorists are in the south. They're bombing the capitol. Its TOTALLY disproportionate.

EVERYONE uses those things. Thats by defenition infrasturcture.

Originally posted by Alliance
Everyone in the country is not a fricking terrorist. Everyone uses those structures. Would plowing up your local gas station help stike agaisnt the ELF? NO. The terrorists are in the south. They're bombing the capitol. Its TOTALLY disproportionate.

EVERYONE uses those things. Thats by defenition infrasturcture.

Wow I feel like I was watching the Syrian Ambassador on T.V. again. You never even answered my question, you just went on a tirade of ranting about disproportionate action again.

Yes I get it, you think its disproportionate action, moving forward. Perhaps you could just answer the question?

I didn't kno wyou were asking a question. I'm saying that Isreals destruction of public infrastructure can be construed as terrorism. It also hurts more non-terrorists than the terrorists itself, which makes people angry, and creates more terrorism.

And I have no more respect for Syria, than I do for Lebanon or Isreal.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
glenn beck? the guy who routinely outcoulters coulter?


Sorry I must of missed that monologue. What did he say that was so offensive? And if he's that far to the right how did he get offered a show on a CNN affiliate?

Originally posted by Darth Jello
When a country launches attacks on your country on a daily basis for several years, that's a pretty good excuse to go to war. You see no distinction between a country and a militant group acting within its borders with foreign backers? Interesting.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
You see no distinction between a country and a militant group acting within its borders with foreign backers? Interesting. A military group with seats in that countries government, and with a larger military then the supposedly 'seperate' government.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
You see no distinction between a country and a militant group acting within its borders with foreign backers? Interesting.

The difference I see when that country is ignoring the problem within their borders is negligible.

To take it out of the mideast, if the illegal aliens in the US were to repeatedly attack Canada, and the US did nothing to try to stop them, then Canada would be completely justified in taking matters into their own hands.

It would never happen of course. The illegal aliens here have no reason to attack Canada, and if they did the US would take care of the problems within its own borders.

Hezbollah couldn't care less about the people of Lebanon (that's irony for ya, considering the people of Lebanon voted them in). Otherwise, they wouldn't be using Lebanese civilian territory as their military base. But then, that Is how terrorists fight.

On the other hand, if Israel felt the same way about the Lebanese people as the Lebanese "government" does, they wouldn't need Hezbollah as a reason to do what they're doing; certainly they would Not be trying to minimize collateral damage.

There's no comparison.

The militant group Hezbollah has more power and a stronger "military" then the actual government of Lebanon. They are strongly supported by the Lebanese people which is another reason the Lebanese government cant remove them from office, it would split their country.

So I say if the Lebanese want to support this terrorist militant group then they are just as responsible. These terrorists continue to attack Israel then flee and hide behind civilians who support them, Israel is fed up with it. They are warning civilians to leave the area in case things really heat up, Israel is just bombing what they believe to be strategic Hezbollah targets. They have yet to start any serious bombardment.

There was a relevent article published over the weekend in the NY Times and several other papers by Thomas Friedman regarding the political situation in the Middle East, which may help to further clear up the confusion regarding Hezbollah and the Lebanese government:

Originally posted by SupezM'
The militant group Hezbollah has more power and a stronger "military" then the actual government of Lebanon. They are strongly supported by the Lebanese people which is another reason the Lebanese government cant remove them from office, it would split their country.

So I say if the Lebanese want to support this terrorist militant group then they are just as responsible. These terrorists continue to attack Israel then flee and hide behind civilians who support them, Israel is fed up with it. They are warning civilians to leave the area in case things really heat up, Israel is just bombing what they believe to be strategic Hezbollah targets. They have yet to start any serious bombardment. If by strongly supported you mean they hold a huge -41 majority in the government...

Israel is totally justified in killing civilians now... I mean... it's the Lebanese civilians' own fault...

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
If by strongly supported you mean they hold a huge -41 majority in the government...

Israel is totally justified in killing civilians now... I mean... it's the Lebanese civilians' own fault...

Here's the thing X, stop minimalizing the fact that Hezbollah are a part of the govt. You know why, because they are. In fact there was UN sanctions 1559 last year that said to Lebanon step it up and take care of Hezbollah. Guess what, Israel is tired of getting hit with missiles and attacked so it looks like they are going to clean it up.

Victimized Lebanese folks again....................yup I guess its true. Israel is really laying into those civilians time and again!

If anyone has seen the damage Israel has inflicted its been minimal to Civilian while Maximizing it's attacks on the Hezbollah who are HIDING among the civilians. So you have military targets sitting next to civilian targets. The only group here that is deliberatly attacking civilians it's the Hezbollah.

Firstly UNSC Resolution 1559 did not impose any sanctions on Lebanon. Secondly while the resolution does call for the disbanding and disarmament of Lebanese militia its predominant focus was on Syrian influence in Lebanon and the removal of foreign forces, the resolution was hastily drafted and slimly passed. Thirdly parties involved have been attempting to comply. Fourthly and finally if you want to talk about UNSC Resolution defiance, Israel is in defiance of 69 separate UNSC resolutions, having been protected from another 41 by U.S. veto, which they probably would have defied anyway if they had passed.

i say let the jews have at it man what the hey. i know that completely sounds like im justifying the tension but they've been on the receieving end for quite some time now..even tho the downside is all the arab nations and the rogue miltia groups are gonna look like geniouses now. cuz in the midst of calling for the eradication of isreal, these terrorists f ****s always claim that the zionists are perpetrating unspeakable evil throught the world. even here in America those guys who go to prison and convert to Islam always come back out with a hatred for jews. thetn you have dumb f ****s like farrakan eggin them on, so the fundamentalists in the arab world are gonna be like "see we told you about those dirty jews." arrgghhh *shakes fist angrily * and then as a result the tension will never cease

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Firstly UNSC Resolution 1559 did not impose any sanctions on Lebanon. Secondly while the resolution does call for the disbanding and disarmament of Lebanese militia its predominant focus was on Syrian influence in Lebanon and the removal of foreign forces, the resolution was hastily drafted and slimly passed. Thirdly parties involved have been attempting to comply. Fourthly and finally if you want to talk about UNSC Resolution defiance, Israel is in defiance of 69 separate UNSC resolutions, having been protected from another 41 by U.S. veto, which they probably would have defied anyway if they had passed.

I doubt any UNSC niceties will prevent this 'conflict' from happening.

That becuase the US vetoes every resolution against Isreal.

The resolution also called on all Lebanese militias (including Hezbollah) to disband.

How to you attempt to comply when the very group that was said to disband forms a part of the govt?



Today who cares how many they defy or follow, you know why? Follow through with the initial 1559 wasn't enough. Israel was still a target by the Hezbollah and they (being Hezbollah) is backed by Syria and Iran. So not much has changed, except Israel stepped up their defense of their country.

Hell Israel even said what it would take to stop. Disarm the Hezbollah and give back Israel's soldiers. Thats it, disarm a known terrorist and militia group in Lebanon that is a threat to Israel and it's own Lebanese govt. Until then, Israel has the right to prevent future attacks from this terrorist group.

They do not have the right to bomb the country back to the Stone age. THats not preventing any attacks.

I wouldn't be surprised if, nex election, an anti-Isreal president from Hezbollah is elected.

The last time Isreal invaded, Hezbollah formed. The ramifications this time are going to be much more serious imo.

Originally posted by Alliance
They do not have the right to bomb the country back to the Stone age.

Not the stone age, just two decades. Anyway the reason they hit bridges, airport and blocked the port was to prevent the Hezbollah from getting supplies from their buddies Syria and Iran.

Anyway give back the soldiers and have the Hezbollah disarm. There we go, two birds with one stone. Seems pretty fair to me, how about you?

Two decades in all likelyhood was the Stone Age for lebanon.

Hello. Its like saying that your highways were bombed to stop Wal-Mart from shipping. Its absolutely an insane position.

Its totally not practical, especially after what Isreal did. Its not Isrea'ls position to enforce UN policies, especially when they have a get out of jail free card from the US.

Originally posted by Alliance
Two decades in all likelyhood was the Stone Age for lebanon.

Hello. Its like saying that your highways were bombed to stop Wal-Mart from shipping. Its absolutely an insane position.

Its totally not practical, especially after what Isreal did. Its not Isrea'ls position to enforce UN policies, especially when they have a get out of jail free card from the US.

Once again you never answered my question, you kept commenting on the collateral damage. Here let me post it again for you.

No. The collateral damage is a huge issue. There is no way Hazbollah is going to release them...especialyl not after Isreal escelated the war to this level. There is no way Hezbollah is goign to disarm, they are to powerful militarily for the Lebanese govenment, which is only about a year old, to handle. They also have a very high political standing with the people...as they do much community service and are currently protecting them from Isreali belligerancy.

The Lebanese government is not going to start a civil war.

Originally posted by Alliance
No. The collateral damage is a huge issue.

Yes it is and I'd be willing to bet Israel would assist in rebuilding if those demands were met.



Hey if the Hezbollah truly believed in the Lebanese people they might consider this option. However they are just a pawn for Syria and Iran. Hezbollah's supply line is severed and they cannot win a war with Israel, drop their arms and save the country I mean they are a part of the Gov't. Don't they want to save Lebanon?




I never said the Lebanese Govt had to disarm them, I said the Hezballoh disarm, hell they can drop their weapons themselves, no force required. They can still be there and be a GREAT resource for the community, disarmed.



No they prefer a war with Israel I guess.

Originally posted by Soleran
The resolution also called on all Lebanese militias (including Hezbollah) to disband.Uh... yeh.. I said that in my post.
Originally posted by Soleran
How to you attempt to comply when the very group that was said to disband forms a part of the govt?Syria has withdrawn troops from Lebanon. If other political parties were capable of disbanding Hizbollah you don't think they would have?
Originally posted by Soleran
Today who cares how many they defy or follow, you know why?Hypocritical. Who cares how many Israel defy because the Lebanese government is incapable of full compliance with a resolution.
Originally posted by Soleran
Follow through with the initial 1559 wasn't enough. Israel was still a target by the Hezbollah and they (being Hezbollah) is backed by Syria and Iran. So not much has changed, except Israel stepped up their defense of their country.

Hell Israel even said what it would take to stop. Disarm the Hezbollah and give back Israel's soldiers. Thats it, disarm a known terrorist and militia group in Lebanon that is a threat to Israel and it's own Lebanese govt. Until then, Israel has the right to prevent future attacks from this terrorist group. How many times does it take to get across that it's not within the Lebanese government's power to do so?

Originally posted by Soleran
No they prefer a war with Israel I guess.



lol

Originally posted by Soleran
Yes it is and I'd be willing to bet Israel would assist in rebuilding if those demands were met.You'd lose a lot of money.