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Setting takes place in Vader's fortress on Vjun.

Which Luke? And I don't think it matters. Sidious and Nihilus will just drain everybody..Nihilus shouldn't be in any threads.

Each character at their peak... And I thought this would be interesting because it is very close imo and the six characters are probably currently some of the most talked about characters on this forum.

The only X Factor I believe you'd have here is Exar Kun's amulet blasts, as that is the only thing that would be able to penetrate Nihilus. If this is DN Luke then he's the greatest of the 6 but his emerald lightning won't work against Nihilus.. It will against Sidious. This is all of course if Sidious and Nihilus don't drain the life out of the 3 or if Sidious doesn't force storm the 3 before Kun gets off his amulet blasts..

Why do you think amulet blasts would work but not EL?

Probably Luke's team. Luke can finis Sidious while Exar puts a blast through Nihilius before he could react...then they team up on Sion until his will is shattered..

Then again, Luke's fast enough to reach Nihilius and kill him before Nihilius can react

This fight goes to the team of Exar, Luke, and Jacen I'd say.

And since it's Luke at his prime, what's Sidious' Force storm going to accomplish? Nai put it best:

Originally posted by Borbarad
What would a force storm do here, hmm ?

a) Sidious will annihilate himself with it.
b) Luke has shown the ability to control multiple black holes
c) Luke has countered the combined force potential of 375 planets filled with Killiks and Joiners

Sidious gets pwned in all 3 fights.

Plus the fact DE Luke cut off Sidious' hand anyways, now he's grown immensely more powerful. And then you have Kun with Sadow's amulet - the one that's able to tear through solid rock, Massassi, and a Sith Wyrm. Btw Sexy, why would Sadow's amulet blasts work on Nihilus, but a Force attack wouldn't?

Anyways, you're left with Sion. And really, in the cut content of KOTOR 2, he got thrown around like a ragdoll by Nihilus, and walked away with his tail between his legs. And I'm sure if the Exile can manage to defeat Sion's will - then Luke can, or hell even Exar Kun could. Either way, the full Sith team loses.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
This fight goes to the team of Exar, Luke, and Jacen I'd say.

And since it's Luke at his prime, what's Sidious' Force storm going to accomplish? Nai put it best:



Plus the fact DE Luke cut off Sidious' hand anyways, now he's grown immensely more powerful. And then you have Kun with Sadow's amulet - the one that's able to tear through solid rock, Massassi, and a Sith Wyrm. Btw Sexy, why would Sadow's amulet blasts work on Nihilus, but a Force attack wouldn't?

Anyways, you're left with Sion. And really, in the cut content of KOTOR 2, he got thrown around like a ragdoll by Nihilus, and walked away with his tail between his legs. And I'm sure if the Exile can manage to defeat Sion's will - then Luke can, or hell even Exar Kun could. Either way, the full Sith team loses.

Because Sadow's blast attack isn't a force attack, which Nihilus would just consume. Sadow's blast is channeled through the force but isn't a force attack itself. This fight could actually go either way depending on several variables.

Can Nihilus or Sidious drain Luke's team before Kun uses his blast on Nihilus and Luke uses his lightning on Sidious?
Will Sidious have enough time to get some distance and create a force storm?
Will Nihilus be able to consume the force/force attacks and/or drain any of the other 3 participants before he gets blasted with the amulet?

A lot of questions that are unanswered, good fight though.

Thanks, I am a great thread maker.

Once again, Luke is fast enough to dice all three of these enemies into pieces and only Sion will get back up...then it's just a matter of taking turns breaking him

Damn, not too busy at the moment. I might go back to galaxies.

Lightsnake, he may be fast enough, and he may have his life drained by either Sidious or Nihilus.. It could go either way, there's no definite.

Luke is able to practically destroy armies on his own. He's easily the strongest Jedi who's ever lived. And when he opens himself to the force, he's even better: Ever seen the anime where one guy appears behind the others and the others fall in sections?

Only Sion might get up from that and that's when Luke, Kun and Jacen'll break his will to hell and back or just block him

Thank you for the irrelevant hyperbole and verbal fellatio lightsnake, yet that doesn't explain to ANYBODY how he would win this fight, especially alone.

Nihilus will Drain them END OF STORY

Oy.. Have you two ever thought about offering an intelligent argument that doesn't include well, what you said and what lightsnake said?

Let's see...Luke only moves faster than anyone can see, destroyed an army plus its leader almost totally on his own...by DE, he's able to bbring down starships and walkers with a gesture...

Yeah, end of story

Lets see.. Lightsnake once again fails to comprehend the concept of a versus forum.

I think you're failing to comprehend evidence and logic

LOL, says the one who's arguments consist of irrelevant misdirection, irrelevent hyperbole, verbal fellatio, and yet no evidence of how said character would win in a versus thread. Look up the defition of logic before you spew out things you can't comprehend..

I wasn't aware official star Wars material used hyperbole to describe characters in battle...let me break it down
There's an army. Then comes Luke...who moves too fast for anyone to perceive who clears out levels of the most elite Yuuzhan Vong warriors, slaughters their top elite and kills the Supreme Overlord...and thinks he could've done better if he pushed himself with the Force

Youre funny lightsnake..

You can't tell me how many people were in that army, and unless you think Luke>all 3 other combatants combined, then youre crazy. And again you fail to realize that as fast as Luke can move, he can still be drained of the force.

Not if he dices Nihilius before Nihilius tries a drain. Unfortunately, as Janus once proved, Nihilus has to paralyze someone and prepare...Luke's way to fast for him.

And let's see...the average Yuuzhan Vong ship was stated to have about...a few million warriors as a planet conquering force. The Sunulok had several times that. Shimrra's hip was stated to contain the most elite of the Yuuzhan Vong, with legions of warriors...you're telling me the Yuuzhan Vong Emperor doesn't travel with a gigantic complement? There were millions of Vong to see him to the surface of a Vong controlled world alone, never mind in the middle of a battle

Where did Janus prove this? I'd like to see it although he is a more credible source than you. Also how are you going to continue arguing if you have to constantly tell me someone has proven it. Let me make it perfectly clear to you. Fighting Vong=/fighting a Sidious and a Nihilus(not even counting Sion). I'm not saying Luke's team will win but to say Luke can handle BOTH of them is fanboyism. He can dice up Nihilus, and Sidious would drain him, or vice versa. This is just stating that Luke can be the greatest Jedi ever but he won't be able to take on Nihilus and Sidious simultaneously as you seem to think. Not to mention I have no idea where you got this "Nihilus needs time to prepare the force drain and to subdue an opponent" bullshit.

He proved it on this forum.

And Sidious taught Luke plenty...including offenses and defenses. Luke was able to block most of Sidious's attacks, hence Sidious forcing a saber duel out of fury.

And Nihilius is shown in orbit some time before wiping out Katarr...and before with the exile...h paralyzes them.

Yes, and you conveniently skipped the part where Nihilus drains Traya to the point where her force abilities are diminished... Good one.

Actually, he pushes her. There's no telling if the draining came there or later

LOL more ignorance to diminish characters that aren't named Luke or Sidious? Perhaps you should consult the KOTOR storyline and gameplay where Kreia cannot summon the lightsaber back to her..

I see that saber move. I suppose being rocketed into a stone wall at that speed from someone powerful as Nihilus doesn't leave someone of Traya;s age and poor physical state in some sort of bad way?

Oh ok youre going to blame kreia's poor physical state? Youre amazing lightsnake really. Let's also ignore the fact that:
#1. It was obvious what happened
#2. Kreia is explaining exactly what happened, this is the exact time where she makes the "there are some techniques in the force for which there is no defense" speech. For the millionth time, your point is moot.

I've said this many times but it gets ignored all the time... Where is the proof that it has no defence? Just because Kreia didn't know any doesn't mean it didn't exist, or could be developped... It's like saying, "Luke Skywalker said in ESB that it was impossible to lift anything the size of an X-Wing, so it must be....."

Kamikz, where is the proof that there IS a defense. Again with the proving a negative. Kreia is a credible source when talking about force abilities considering the fact that she is VERY powerful, and unless you are going to say she's lying, there's no reason to assume there's a technique for it. And considering the fact that we have never SEEN a technique to defend against it(except for the exile obviously), then it's more logical to assume there is not defense for it rather than lightsnake's text about "they know every defense" blah blah.. As Nai pointed out, if they didn't develop a defense for it while FIGHTING it(they didn't, there is no proof that they did), then it's very obvious that they didn't just develop a defense for it out of nowhere, considering the fact that Yoda probably never saw that technique and neither did Sidious. I have yet to see any of the New Sith use it so it would make no sense to say they have a defense.

Nice teams.

Still...Exar Kun, DN Luke and DN Jacen ? Against Sion, Sidious and Nihilus ?

Meh. Luke on his own is capable of wasting the entire opposite team on his own. Thanks to the redicously power boost the EU writers gave him. Nihilus will drop down death (either executed by Luke or toasted by Kun) before he can do anything. Sidious falls next and then Sion gets sliced into so many pieces that he won't recover from it. End of story.

Ah well...before I forget it. Nihilus might try to drain them and it's even possible that he will be successful draining one of them to a certain extend before getting his ass kicked. Unfortunatelly Kun might pull of the same ability (as he was equipped with all of Sadow's knowledge most likely containing it) while Jacen and Luke can both "seperate" theirselves from the force which would basically turn them into different versions of the Exile, weakening Nihilus if he tries to attack them.

Not to mention that there is the chance that Nihilus is down on the floor before he's able to move a finger considering who he fights against.

Numerous sources saying new techniques were developed, new defenses were created, etc...

That's what I said, Nai...Luke is far too fast for Nihilius to react against. As it results:

Sidious's spirit goes back to the realms of chaos and back to the drawing board
Nihilius dissolves in dark energy
And sion goes the way of Dr. Hill in Reanimator

Originally posted by Borbarad
Nice teams.

Still...Exar Kun, DN Luke and DN Jacen ? Against Sion, Sidious and Nihilus ?

Meh. Luke on his own is capable of wasting the entire opposite team on his own. Thanks to the redicously power boost the EU writers gave him. Nihilus will drop down death (either executed by Luke or toasted by Kun) before he can do anything. Sidious falls next and then Sion gets sliced into so many pieces that he won't recover from it. End of story.

Ah well...before I forget it. Nihilus might try to drain them and it's even possible that he will be successful draining one of them to a certain extend before getting his ass kicked. Unfortunatelly Kun might pull of the same ability (as he was equipped with all of Sadow's knowledge most likely containing it) while Jacen and Luke can both "seperate" theirselves from the force which would basically turn them into different versions of the Exile, weakening Nihilus if he tries to attack them.

Not to mention that there is the chance that Nihilus is down on the floor before he's able to move a finger considering who he fights against.

Eh Nai that's a little sketchy, the part about Luke and Jacen can separate themselves to the point where they turn into the exile. I didn't know they could become wounds in the force. That's a very grey area right there.

If THOLME could cut himself off from the force completely...

Who? And that proves what?

Disconnecting and reconnecting through the Force? Not as hard as one may think anymore.

Tholme does it during the Clone Wars to trick Quinlan

Great, and proof of Luke and Jacen doing it? Didn't think so.

Luke's students could do it....not to mention a Jedi like Tholme doing it...

Sorry, pal...if Luke's students could do it to hide from Voxyn and other things, then why wouldn't Luke? He's their teacher, remember?

Sorry bro, if you have no proof that they could cut themselves from the force, then you have no case.. Whether Luke's students(which i've never seen) could do it or not.

Clone Wars comics. NJO sourcebook, Ultimate Adversaries, possibly Star by Star.

I'm rather certain Uldir's girlfriend did the same at one point...and Azure Daye-Jin

Show me a quote, not books.. And show me where they learned it from Luke, considering Luke NEVER DID IT

I have you the sources and being as I'm at college, I don't have them at hand.

And great, Luke never did it...WHO did Dooku learn Makashi from again, you little hypocrite? Simus never used alchemy either...Quinlan used techniques Tholme never did, big deal.

Okay, could Master Tholme defeat Nihilius? When you consider that Tholme could disconnect and reconnect at will...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I have you the sources and being as I'm at college, I don't have them at hand.

And great, Luke never did it...WHO did Dooku learn Makashi from again, you little hypocrite? Simus never used alchemy either...Quinlan used techniques Tholme never did, big deal.

Okay, could Master Tholme defeat Nihilius? When you consider that Tholme could disconnect and reconnect at will...


Hypocrite? Dooku learned Makashi from Yoda because Yoda was KNOWN to know 6 of the 7 forms. Simus was a sith ALCHEMIST. Nice attempt at being a complete fool. And since your argument is dead as usual, prove that Tholme's technique made him a WOUND in the force the way it did for Exile.

Prove it.

And here is where your argument has died... I've proven that Yoda knew all the forms or at least 6.. Go away, your argument is dead.

Just repost your last arument

huh? Arument? Perhaps you should take a breather and come back wth a real argument?

Repost your arGument

WHAT argument?

Said you proved Yoda knew six forms and Simus was an alchemist. Prove it

Go look at that DOoku learning Makashi thread. As you say "I gave you the sources now you fnd it". Everyone else seems to have seen it.

There isn't a thread. Just tell me the sources here, shouldn't be too hard

Find the Dooku learning Makashi, somewhere on the first page. I shouldn't have to prove things to you twice because you choose to ignore facts.

What book?

What book? What are you talking about? On the first page of the versus forum, one of the threads in which Dooku is involved.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
What book? What are you talking about? On the first page of the versus forum, one of the threads in which Dooku is involved.

He means like instead of him looking at the fourteen pages of the Dooku's skill thread (if that's what you are talking about) that you give him the actual name of source which states that Yoda knows six out of the seven forms.

let me look

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Eh Nai that's a little sketchy, the part about Luke and Jacen can separate themselves to the point where they turn into the exile. I didn't know they could become wounds in the force. That's a very grey area right there.

A grey area ? Well...
Let me put it like this: The Exile was basically a "negative" energy source in terms of the force. The NJO Jedi can seperate themselves from the force at will. Nihilus would basically try to eat from an empty plate without any result.

Or to go even further: Through the Falanassi teachings Luke received in the Black Fleet trilogy he was able to become invisible and completely unsenseable in the force - he could even hide away entire planets with that knowledge. Now logically Luke is basically not defeatable any longer after the Black Fleet Crises because nobody in the entire universe could see or sense him if he wanted.

See the problem ? Technically Luke could just disappear in front of the enemy team and than stab them without even risking to get hit.

And even if we ignore this little fact. Luke had defeated Sidious 25 years before DN already. DN Luke would crush Sidious. If Nihilus can throw Sion around like a ragdoll (cut content of KotoR 2) DN Luke can do that too. Than only Nihilus would be left and the only advantage he has is his drain ability. Now Nihilus is confronted with a person that did show the ability to manipulate the force directly (this is how he did hide away the planet in the Black Fleet Crisis), destroyed entire armies on his own, countered a force attack backed up by 375 planets filled with people, manipulated black holes and can become completely invisible and unsenseable if he wants to. Not to mention such hilarious acts like reanimating himself while unconcious (Callista trilogy).

Now if Nihilus uses his drain ability Luke could technically create a "loop" in the force that keeps "feeding" Nihilus and then rip him apart. Or he simply instantly kills him. Or he disappears and assassinates Nihilus. Luke has far more chances to take Nihilus down than vice versa.

Oh, Luke also survived an internal explosion in his X-wing through the Force...and was still able to levitate to the found without a scratch

Originally posted by Borbarad
A grey area ? Well...
Let me put it like this: The Exile was basically a "negative" energy source in terms of the force. The NJO Jedi can seperate themselves from the force at will. Nihilus would basically try to eat from an empty plate without any result.

Or to go even further: Through the Falanassi teachings Luke received in the Black Fleet trilogy he was able to become invisible and completely unsenseable in the force - he could even hide away entire planets with that knowledge. Now logically Luke is basically not defeatable any longer after the Black Fleet Crises because nobody in the entire universe could see or sense him if he wanted.

See the problem ? Technically Luke could just disappear in front of the enemy team and than stab them without even risking to get hit.

And even if we ignore this little fact. Luke had defeated Sidious 25 years before DN already. DN Luke would crush Sidious. If Nihilus can throw Sion around like a ragdoll (cut content of KotoR 2) DN Luke can do that too. Than only Nihilus would be left and the only advantage he has is his drain ability. Now Nihilus is confronted with a person that did show the ability to manipulate the force directly (this is how he did hide away the planet in the Black Fleet Crisis), destroyed entire armies on his own, countered a force attack backed up by 375 planets filled with people, manipulated black holes and can become completely invisible and unsenseable if he wants to. Not to mention such hilarious acts like reanimating himself while unconcious (Callista trilogy).

Now if Nihilus uses his drain ability Luke could technically create a "loop" in the force that keeps "feeding" Nihilus and then rip him apart. Or he simply instantly kills him. Or he disappears and assassinates Nihilus. Luke has far more chances to take Nihilus down than vice versa.

I agree with this. A good question would be how long it would take Nihilus to initiate his force drain against how long it would take Luke to fall out of the force.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, Luke also survived an internal explosion in his X-wing through the Force...and was still able to levitate to the found without a scratch


What the HELL does this have to do with anything? More irrelevant feats?

Um... Borbarad, if they cut it, don't you think it is uncanonical?

I mean take for the example that novel where Leia and Luke were engaging in foreplay (I forgot, I think it is the one between ANH and Empire Strikes back), I think Lucas cut that, unless he is planning some really erotic situation.

Some interesting arguments. However I have to say the Darths.
While Luke > Sion, Sidious or Nihilus and Jacen > Sidious,
Nihilus > Kun and Sidious, Sion > Kun and Sidious and Sidious > Kun.
And Luke is only slightly better than Sion and Nihilus. So the Darths win, case closed.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
Some interesting arguments. However I have to say the Darths.
While Luke > Sion, Sidious or Nihilus and Jacen > Sidious,
Nihilus > Kun and Sidious, Sion > Kun and Sidious and Sidious > Kun.
And Luke is only slightly better than Sion and Nihilus. So the Darths win, case closed.

Wow GM, I've never heard it an argument formatted so badly. Bravo, I really commend you.

Firstly, since when is DN Luke "only slightly better than Sion and Nihilus"? Last time I checked Luke was removing himself from the Force, crushing an army of YZ, defeating Shimmra, manipulating black holes, and slicing off DE Sidious' hand. I forgot Nihilus having the ability to sound like a disfigured Oscar the Grouch, but let's ignore all of Luke's impressive displays of power, and go on to Kun's.

If I remember Kun was able to use Sadow's amulets to a deadly degree - blasting through temple walls, Massassi, and alchemical abominations. Oh yeah, and there's things like toying with and destroying the most powerful Force users of the era, and being the strongest of said era. But let's ignore all those because we have seen Sion display some incredible acts of courage. Namely limping away like a dog with his tail between his legs after he was tossed around like a ragdoll.

Seriously, come back when you have a valid argument. Or, at least, one that is factual.

Hey, sama, I'm gonna head off soon and probably won't go have time for many responses
Care to continue the debate on IM?

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Wow GM, I've never heard it an argument formatted so badly. Bravo, I really commend you.

Firstly, since when is DN Luke "only slightly better than Sion and Nihilus"? Last time I checked Luke was removing himself from the Force, crushing an army of YZ, defeating Shimmra, manipulating black holes, and slicing off DE Sidious' hand. I forgot Nihilus having the ability to sound like a disfigured Oscar the Grouch, but let's ignore all of Luke's impressive displays of power, and go on to Kun's.

If I remember Kun was able to use Sadow's amulets to a deadly degree - blasting through temple walls, Massassi, and alchemical abominations. Oh yeah, and there's things like toying with and destroying the most powerful Force users of the era, and being the strongest of said era. But let's ignore all those because we have seen Sion display some incredible acts of courage. Namely limping away like a dog with his tail between his legs after he was tossed around like a ragdoll.

Seriously, come back when you have a valid argument. Or, at least, one that is factual.


good good

Originally posted by zephiel7
Um... Borbarad, if they cut it, don't you think it is uncanonical?

I mean take for the example that novel where Leia and Luke were engaging in foreplay (I forgot, I think it is the one between ANH and Empire Strikes back), I think Lucas cut that, unless he is planning some really erotic situation.

I don't really think the cut content from KotOR II comes into this category. It was cut at the last moment due to time restrictions and neither does it grossly contradict anything.

Even so, lots of scenes can be cut for any such reason and not contradict anything...I'm rather sure cut material goes N-canon...like with Anakin fighting Greedo