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Can these two Jedi from ROTS defeat the Dark Lords of the Sith from KOTOR?

Cast thy votes.

Revan and Malak, easily.

Either one alone might be able to take this duo - Malak is even with Dooku, so he probably couldn't since Dooku wasn't able to but Revan, being a bit stronger than Dooku or Malak, stands a good chance against this duo alone. Either way, this is overkill.
Malak vs. Obi-Wan = Malak
Revan vs. Anakin = Revan

or

Malak vs. Anakin = Could go either way
Revan vs. Obi-Wan = Revan pwns him with the Force in 3 seconds
Revan and Malak vs. Anakin = Anakin gets owned

Pointless thread, Revan and Malak.

What he^ said.

It is, but I wanted to see what people would actually say

Revan and Malak would easily win.

Ah yes, Revan and Malak win easily despite fighting "the most powerful Jedi of his generation" ("perhaps of any generation" and the Soresu master.

Tell me - what form and Force powers will our esteemed Darth Unknown be using in this fight? I'd argue Anakin could take Malak (as he's compared to be on level with Dooku) within a minute. However I'd put Revan above Dooku anyways, so he'd probably eliminate Kenobi. Which leaves it to Revan/Anakin, and really - I'm not going to say who'd win for sure; though I'd lean towards Revan.

As well, Revan could not take the duo alone. That's a pretty ridiculous assertion.

Eh nobody said Revan could take the Duo alone, at least nobody intelligent. But I definitely would not take Anakin over a far more powerful and experienced Malak. Revan's team would win either way.

I agree with that post although I have noticed your particular love for Revan.. It makes sense though. Comparing Anakin and Malak doesn't.

Originally posted by zephiel7
You are forgetting that Revan and Malak were the strongest force users and saber duelists of their time as well.

And...? Exar Kun was the strongest Force user of his time, too. So was Marka Ragnos. So was Palpatine. Not to mention we don't know how someone like Revan would fare against Nihilus, but whatever my point was: do you have a point?



Yes, more militant. Too bad for your side of the argument that Anakin was the "Best of the Golden Age of the Jedi" in saber dueling (because that is what Lucas was referring to saber dueling).



Did Revan's awesome unknown powers (of which you've still yet to name) save him from getting knocked out by a computer? It sure as hell saved Kenobi from a four lightsaber swinging monstrosity named General Grievous, who was capable of defeating seven Jedi at once.



Okay, so Darth Raiden can use Force lightning. What happened when Dooku tried to use Force lightning on Obi-Wan?



Oh wow. That answers my original question. What form and what Force powers does he have? Force lightning has been shown to be blocked (demonstrated by one of the combatants), so his Mortal Kombat skills won't be the end all solution here.



Yeah, tell me something I haven't heard repeated three hundred sixty five times. How much does it enhance the user exactly again?



And Anakin was praised by about twenty "exceptional force users and also from an unbiased source". As I originally said: do you have a point?



Traya is a biased hag...



Oops! Too late.



"Revan is the Heart of the Force." - Traya on Revan.

Yes, because without Revan the Force would really die or become weakened. Please. Claiming Traya is not a biased source is pretty hilarious considering her thoughts on Revan.



Sadly, there's no proof that Revan has an instakill (or what powers he even learned there), and because of that - I don't see how it's applicable. Yoda himself had quite the knowledge base, so did Sidious - are they invincible or out of Anakin's league now too?



Well, if you want to ignore the fact Anakin is the strongest Jedi of his generation, save for Yoda because he's going to die in twenty years anyways, then no - there's no basis for it.



What the hell? Do you have any real proof that Malak can beat Anakin?

Here, I'll respond to your comments with their equivalents (but with more info.):



Anakin defeated Dooku (who is likened to Mace Windu); who fought SEVERAL Jedi (and I'd be willing to put those Jedi on a higher pedestal than the no name DJ that Kavar defeated).

But let me bring it back and focus on Anakin who defeated a few Dark Jedi himself, and Cin Drallig - you know - Cin Drallig, the Battlemaster of PT era. He defeated Cin while doing what? Like fighting him with one arm and killing two of his padawans , too? And killing Serra Keto on top of that.



And? Do you know how strong those "raiding parties" were? Or even what exactly happened?



And Dooku was the same master duelist who used the lightsaber to lightsaber form, and was trained in "The Golden Age of Jedi", and was able to bring down two Jedi masters with ease. This is also Anakin who's the most powerful of his generation, defeated Durge, Ventress, Dooku, Cin (while fighting two others), and Jedi younglings.

To even argue that Anakin isn't in the same league as Revan or Malak is being illogical, zephiel.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I agree with that post although I have noticed your particular love for Revan.. It makes sense though. Comparing Anakin and Malak doesn't.

How do you notice my love for Revan? Have you been here before?

To Zeph, I have read articles referring to Revan, and I've always seen you sticking up for him no matter what, notice how I said "noticed" as in just now..
To Sama, where in the world was ANakin referred to as the best lightsaber duelist? He at best on par or a notch below Mace, and NOT on par with Yoda.. SO where is this info?
Comparing Revan's force lightning which looked like a miniature force storm from the sky and Dooku's half assed sith lightning, doesn't work since they appear to be two different things, or one is a more powerful version of the other. Then a bunch of stuff I don't really care about and then the fact that again, Revan was unmatched in his time, while Yoda was stalemated in his time. What does that say? Not much really except that Revan would possibly be>Sidious and Yoda but not by much, and that for the last time him defeating a star force powered Malak(and the lives of 8 jedi) is a true testament to his power and shows a hell of a lot more than Anakin has shown..

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
To Sama, where in the world was ANakin referred to as the best lightsaber duelist?

This is Anakin Skywalker:
The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace. He is the best there is at what he does. The best there has ever been. And he knows it. - Revenge of the Sith novel by Matthew Stover.



Didn't I make it clear that it doesn't include Yoda considering he dies within some twenty years?



Where exactly did we see this?



So was Exar Kun, so was Marka Ragnos - as I've said to zephiel: did you have a point?





Firstly, I wasn't comparing Revan to Anakin. I was comparing Malak. Secondly, Anakin being able to defeat the top dogs of the era (Dooku, Cin, Asajj, etc.) is a true testament to his power. Add to the fact he's the strongest in "The Golden Age of Jedi", and that's also a testament.

And excuse me, but what else has Revan shown us...or rather what else is there to parade around other than "z0mg h3 be4t th3 jawless wonder!!//eleven".

And a mistake that's too late to fix but I said:



I meant to say five Jedi.

First of all Revan is the coolest looking. Second of all, how is Anakin the strongest jedi ANY generation much less his? Considering he was on par or below Mace, and below Yoda, and Sidious. That would pretty much contradict that nonsense what's his name wrote in the novel?

Are you saying the Rakatans didn't see lightning coming from the sky?
And I guess you think Anakin defeating Dooku is somehow more thrilling than Revan defeating dark Jedi, and a super powered Malak? Hmmm. Also I believe that this description of ANakin is talking about nothing more than his potential, because that description itself actually contradicts the fact that he has at least 2-3 people more powerful than him.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
First of all Revan is the coolest looking.

Irrelevant, but for the record - Ysanne Isard is the coolest looking.



It says "perhaps of any generation", not that he is.



Yoda was to die in twenty years as I've said. That isn't his generation. It's certainly Mace Windu's though.



What? No. It's pretty clear that Yoda isn't of that generation (considering his age), and what other "nonsense" are you talking about exactly?



I'd suspect a primitive race would interpret magical powers unseen for millenia that way.



How many Dark Jedi did Revan defeat again? How did he defeat them again? How much help did he have again? Please, that's gameplay, Sexy. And I'd submit Anakin defeating the more powerful Force users (and non-Force users) of the era is far more impressive than a few measly no name Dark Jedi.



Yes, it's clearly talking about potential, Sexy. Even though it makes it perfectly clear that Anakin is the main aspect of the description.

Also the fact there isn't even mention of what he can become (but what he is) tells me that it's talking about Anakin in the "now".

AH so what exactly would you call it what the Rakatan's saw? I doubt youre trying to diminish Revan as a character but I just want to know what it is YOU think they saw?

And again I am asking you, if they do describe Anakin as the most powerful of this generation, that would put him above Mace, and Sidious no? Hardly the case here. And again who was the most powerful force user Anakin had defeated? Dooku? Revan defeated Bastilla who was powerful in her own way, and a super powered Malak which by any means>Dooku..

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
AH so what exactly would you call it what the Rakatan's saw? I doubt youre trying to diminish Revan as a character but I just want to know what it is YOU think they saw?

...Force lightning? Give me the exact quote if you would. And no, I'm not diminishing Revan's powers - I'm simply stating the logical explanation for why it would be nothing more than Force lightning, which was:





How? You yourself admitted Anakin could be on par with Mace.



Yes, I suppose his one defeat of Malak (of which I've yet to hear by how much the Star Forge increases one's power) puts Revan above everyone. May I remind you that you don't know if Revan was getting his ass whooped and got in a lucky shot a la Obi-Wan, only that it was an "epic" battle (so was Anakin/Obi-Wan's ROTS duel, but Obi-Wan had a lucky streak there).

You're right we don't know but the simple fact that Revan was declared as ALWAYS more powerful than Malak, and Malak himself claimed that Revan was more powerful than he was during his reign as Dark Lord, we can infer from this that Revan was just too powerful for even a superpowered Malak. And as for quantifying Malak's power with the SF, he was described as unstoppable. Now whether or not Malak=Dooku is confirmed, I think it is reasonable to say a SF powered Malak>Dooku..

'Yes, more militant. Too bad for your side of the argument that Anakin was the "Best of the Golden Age of the Jedi" in saber dueling (because that is what Lucas was referring to saber dueling).'

This is rediculous Mokoto, you can't just make up sources. I'm guessing you heard this from Lightsnake right? Lucas didn't say 'in terms of saber dueling', he just said 'Golden Age of the Jedi' as in a peaceful period. I mean it's not even believeable that lucas would say something like that.

Thats exactly what I was trying to point out to lightsnake, the fact that the Golden Age of the Jedi means nothing in terms of power.

Yet another good read, I really don't know who the hell made up that crap about the Golden Age of the Jedi dealing with power and dueling, I assume it was lightsnake.

Originally posted by zephiel7
If you have forgotten already, you stated that

Ah yes, Revan and Malak win easily despite fighting "the most powerful Jedi of his generation" ("perhaps of any generation" and the Soresu master.

And my two statements being compared means what exactly?



Yes, one of the strongest (which could be anybody who's not the weakest) out of people like Bandon. I originally posted that response because someone said "Malak and Revan easily".



Oh yeah, I forgot the immense amount of capable duelists the Old Republic (for Revan's time) put out. Only a handful at most.



And yet we only see a handful of capable duelists. Take the quote up with whoever stated it to be that way, I didn't get it first hand.



Very impressive Revan. How did you defeat those spectacular droids again? You could've used mines for Buddha's sake.



Ah yes, I forgot that a primitive race who hasn't seen any magical powers for a millenia is going to know how to describe Force lightning.



Yes, considering a primitive race describes it as such it must be a Force storm. Other than the fact that the Force storm in KOTOR arcs up first, and then rains down.



Amazing. Anakin killed the Battlemaster with one hand while Force choking another Jedi with his other hand.



And when have I ever made an argument like that? Show me where exactly I've ever said anything remotely close to this and I'll admit Revan > Anakin any day of the week.



Third party sources now?



And for all we know, those force wielders could've been simple wannabe Sith padawans.



Yes, I've heard this three millions time.



And my response was just that as well.



Okay, and as you've already said: praise is no big deal.



You are missing the point, which is simple: your only taking a guess at this. It's not factual information to say that Revan has those skills.

Anyways, even if you were to say that - I'd ask "Well what the hell were they then?"



Please explain to me facts. Like does Revan have these skills definitely? Can you say for sure? No, therefore not applicable.



I left out Windu because it was his era. It was not Yoda's considering his lifespan only granted him like twenty some years. Mace was considerably in his prime during ROTS.



So...this somehow means they are necessarily better? No name Dark Jedi faced no name Jedi. Impressive, that r



Yes, did you see it?



Perhaps because to me it seems half the PT roster are prodigies with a lightsaber, and only a handful from Revan's era can be considered such. Also add to the fact that we cannot simply say because duels are more common that it means they are necessarily better.

I'd like to know where Luke developed such skill, along with Dooku, Mace, and so on.



Yes, if you want to argue "logically" (as you put it) with me - don't be ridiculous.



I love the downplaying on your part. Here goes one from me:

Way to go Revan, you just succeeded in killing Malak, even though we have no clue what happened and it could've been a lucky hit. Malak is unimpressive because I say so.



What happened exactly again?



Yep, the PT sure was a time of peace despite the fact there's was a war raging on throughout the entire trilogy. We see almost everyone being a described as a "prodigy" or possessing great skill with a lightsaber. We see...how many exactly in Revan's era?

Basically you're saying that because the soldiers that were in the Vietnam War were constantly at conflict, and were in a "more martial time" than like prior to 9/11 that the soldiers are better. My question: how the hell would you know? How do you know the PT era didn't produce numerous super prodigies (as seems to be the case anyways) that don't necessarily need war to be superior?



And give me the exact details surrounding Malak's defeat if you will.



And what is your point about Ventress not being a DLOTS? Did I ever say she was? No.



I'll call bullsh*t if you don't mind considering there's at least seven other sources to confirm Anakin > Dooku.



What the hell? "The Mace Windu of the time". How is Kavar = Mace? Considering we haven't seen him do anything too impressive, less on the level of Mace Windu (and that's basically the argument you're presenting to me).

The real question that I care about is that I'd love to here how exactly Revan defeated Malak. Really, you don't even have to reply to any of that - just answer that one question.

Well Gee Sama... First thing:

The SF droids were designed to destroy Jedi. Malak himself said "Only few in the order can defeat the Star Forge droids", which says enough about Revan.

And a handful of worthy fighters in the order? If I recall there were equal amounts of worthy combatants in both times, so what is your point exactly? And it's not exactly called force lightning when it's coming from the sky, hence the term "low level force storm".

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
The SF droids were designed to destroy Jedi. Malak himself said "Only few in the order can defeat the Star Forge droids", which says enough about Revan.

Yes, and I suppose me using mines to defeat them says a lot as well? No canon information on how he did it.



Really? Like who?



And you're still ignoring the fact it was said by a group of primitives who haven't seen magic for a millenia. On top of that the Force storm of KOTOR arcs up first anyways:

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/4947/revanusingforcestormaf2.th.jpg

Yes, I'm sure Darth Raiden was able to sprout down his amazing powers from the sky, even though it's something that was described by a primitive race, and isn't even realistic for Star Wars. Even more if you look at how Force storm actually arcs up first.

You seem to have a strong dislike for the character, especially with certain statements like "We have no proof how he did it"? Considering the fact the fact that one of Malak's apprentice said "No my lord, they didn't defeat them, Revan is with them", to which Malak responded with "Revan was always strong in the force". Followed by Malak telling the guy to send everything at Revan and having no faith in them saying "They will only slow him down". I don't know why you want to get into technicalities here, I personally feel the case for Revan>Anakin or Yoda or Sidious is somewhat clear. Also, lets say it IS force lightning, who in the PT era has shown that much ability and skill that Revan displayed throughout the storyline?


Oh and Vrook, Vandar, Malak, Revan, Bastilla, and Dorak were all worthy combatants.. Just because the movies only show lightsaber duels with worthy combatants doesn't necessarily mean all of a sudden PT era>Old republic Era.

And as for a more warlike era, the Clone Wars were indeed a warlike period, yet they didn't start til the end of episode 2. I think this is addressed to Nai actually. How are you going to tell me the Clone Wars were more warlike than The Sith War, the Mandalorian War, and the Civil War(Which was ironically the most devastating war up to date)? I fail to see how the old republic era was NOT the most warlike.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You seem to have a strong dislike for the character,

Nope. I do, however, have a strong dislike for statements like the most powerful person of one generation can't hold a candle to another.



Well, I'd like to actually pose the question of how the battle happened. As it seems most people think Revan crushed Malak within a blink. I'm simply saying it could've been as close or as lucky as Obi-Wan and Anakin or Obi-Wan and Darth Maul.



How does that pertain to Malak and Revan's fight?



Because really his beating "everything" is mostly gameplay, which really means squat in a debate. Along with the fact he had help.



And why is it clear? The answer usually is only one thing: because of his defeat of Malak.



What skill is exactly my question. Beating Malak while he got unknown power boost x from the Star Forge?



And that would be a handful. I wasn't even referring to the PT movies alone, the comics also concede to the fact they have numerous other opponents not shown in movies.



Very true points indeed, I suppose the OR is definitely more martial than the PT.

Youre missing my point Sama, how is it even possible for Revan to get lucky against Malak, if he is the more powerful of the two and always has been? This isn't the case of Obiwan and Anakin or Obiwan and Maul, this is where the strongest of two wins. And I'm saying Revan was more powerful than anyone in the PT era because he was the most powerful of the light side, AND the dark side. His abilities were unmatched, as was his genius military tactics. I should erase that since that has nothing to do with power but the fact that he was the greatest on both sides of the force says a lot.

Oh and really he doesn't say "Golden Age of the Jedi", that was my mistake. He says "Prime of the Jedi". Now tell me - what does "prime" mean? Better yet I'll tell you:

prime ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prm)
adj.
First in excellence, quality, or value. See Usage Note at perfect.
First in degree or rank; chief. See Synonyms at chief.
First or early in time, order, or sequence; original.
Of the highest U.S. government grade of meat.
Mathematics. Of, relating to, or being a prime number.


Now clearly it isn't relating to prime numbers. So my question is: how can what Lucas says be interpreted as "peaceful"? It clearly means the best of the Jedi and he also talks about fighting - how it should be more spectacular and all that jazz because it's where we see the highest quality of Jedi.

But we don't see the HIGHEST quality of Jedi that we see in the comics and what not. I know the definition of Prime, but in the Jedi's case peace is the perfect example of prime, is it not? Perhaps you want to consult the Jedi Code? The ideal golden age of the jedi is peace, the ideal golden age of the sith is power. This is the concept of light and dark side, you know this. So your definition of prime kinda contradicts the characters' abilities in the PT and other eras.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
This isn't the case of Obiwan and Anakin or Obiwan and Maul, this is where the strongest of two wins.

Why? Anakin is firmly Obi-Wan's superior. Maul was firmly Obi-Wan's superior. Yet the superiors both lost, so tell me why it is clearly an easy victory for Revan?



Wrong. Yoda is "the strongest foe the darkness has ever known". Unless you're referring to his era alone.



Exar Kun > Revan.



Yes, all in his era (and you don't know how he'd fair against Nihilus). Thrawn is definitely Revan's superior in tactics.



And I hope you're referring to his era alone.



As Silencer S put it to me:

Stop right there.

Nai's explaination

Resume.

Read that and explain to me how the PT isn't better.



No. The highest quality of Jedi means just that. It clearly doesn't pertain to "peace". It's referring to the Jedi's skill, not their ideals.



Perhaps you want to consult George Lucas? It doesn't refer to their ideals, it refers to the Jedi themselves.



How exactly does it contradict other eras exactly? The concept of light and dark has nothing to do with this, and that "peace" sh*t is just that. There wasn't even peace in the first movie, so to say that the PT era as a whole was the Jedi ideal is ridiculous. It was referring to the Jedi's skills, hence why Lucas wanted to make the fighting as extravagent as it was.

Ok well few things.. You're going to take lightsnake's route and explain the nonsensical Yoda quote? That would mean Yoda>Exar Kun, Nadd, Sadow, Ragnos, etc.. Aka wrong..
Secondly, Thrawn is his superios=assumption/personal opinion.
Now, unless you can show me where GL said that the golden age of the Jedi was in terms of power(no source because it's not true), then why don't you think about my reasoning as it makes a little more sense than the obscure term.

How he'd fair against Nihilus? Boy you're just throwing all of the anti Revan rhetoric into one post huh? Tell me, how would someone that had a 3rd of the republic+the sith armies and the SF fair against 1 ship? What's Nihilus going to do, eat countless of ships before they all destroy his? That's not even something I should be discussing because it's so ridiculous.
And I have read Nai's explanation and I also know he prefers PT over old republic. His explanation is clear and is very logical, I just disagree with it. Hence the term Nai's explanation or "opinion"..
I still cannot believe you brought Nihilus into this..

And actually there WAS peace in the galaxy during the time of PT. If you are referring to the turmoil on Naboo as warlike as anything else that happened to the old republic, you'd find that it wasn't exactly a warlike time. No Sama, peace ended when the clone wars begin, and maybe a little bit before that. But I am anxious to see what Lucas meant with the golden age..

May I also point out that Nai mentions the sith at the apex of their power, were the ancient sith and that everyone that followed afterwards grew less and less in power, but I think I've see you disagree with that. So Nai is right with the PT case and wrong with the ancient sith?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Ok well few things.. You're going to take lightsnake's route and explain the nonsensical Yoda quote? That would mean Yoda>Exar Kun, Nadd, Sadow, Ragnos, etc.. Aka wrong..

Actually, it would mean that Ragnos - not being a Jedi/threat to the Darkside itself isn't included.

It would mean that Exar Kun - not being a Jedi/threat to the Darkside itself isn't included.

It would mean Freedon Nadd - not being a Jedi/threat to the Darkside itself isn't included.

It would mean Naga Sadow - not being a Jedi/threat to the Darkside itself isn't included.

It would mean etc. - not being a Jedi/threat to the Darkside itself isn't included.

Did you even read the quote?



No, it's outright stated in Heir (or Survivor's Quest I forget) that Thrawn is the best tactician in the history of the universe. Should I direct you to the Revan vs. Thrawn debate? Where it's made clear that Revan is Thrawn's inferior.



Because it's not the "Golden Age of the Jedi", it's the "Prime of the Jedi". Prime meaning the highest degree and quality of Jedi - you cannot argue with that. And why doesn't it make sense considering we haven't seen Jedi display more power in any other era (the NJO possibly, however that's loosely based on the actual Jedi philosophy).



Yes, that's exactly what I'm doing. My mission on these forums is to prove that Revan isn't a god, and to downplay anything he's ever accomplished because of my hatred of the character.

Really now - all I was saying is that you don't know how he'd fair against Nihilus. So really he's only the most powerful of the KOTOR era he was actually featured in.



What the hell are you talking about? I'm talking about Revan versus Nihilus. As in one on one. I don't know where you got fleets vs. fleets or a space battle for that matter, but whatever...



Again I say: what the hell are you talking about?



Yes, because me bringing Nihilus vs. Revan (one on one) is somehow relevant to this point, eh? And really, what do you have other than "it's a more martial time period hence Old Republic Jedi > all in dueling or power".



It's clear, you just don't accept it. Similiar to what you are accusing me of. And really, why would the entire Prequel Trilogy refer to just the events before TPM? No, it is referring to the entire PT era Jedi's skill; not their ideals as you seem to think considering throughout all three of the movies there is not peace. Moreso in Ep. 2 and 3, however, that's still the PT and thus cannot be referred to as "peace" especially when the entire point of the PT was to show how the Empire rose to power - which was not through peace.

1. I believe I've proved how he'd fair against Nihilus. If you want to use him in a 1 on 1 match with Nihilus, Nihilus would defeat anybody, so you have no point here. I don't think Revan is a God but at the same time you're trying to do everything in your power to reduce his character to nothing. Also I'm not saying Revan is better, I'm saying you're trying to diminish the character. Revan would probably be the second greatest tactician next to Thrawn.. And again you speak of the "Golden Age of the Jedi", so by your logic, the PT Jedi should defeat the likes of Exar Kun, Freedon Nadd, Ulic, and the ancient sith, correct?

And no I didn't read the quote, but the way you are explaining it is the same way lightsnake was. That Yoda>all the people I mentioned, which is far from the truth.

Oh and Nai, if you get a chance, you need to fix something on that site. You specifically state that the Jedi didn't go to war during the Mandalorian Wars. However it was explicitly stated that "countless Jedi flocked to join Revan and Malak to fight the Mandalorians".

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
1. I believe I've proved how he'd fair against Nihilus.

You mean this:



Yes, saying that Revan's fleet would annihilate Nihilus proved to me Revan > Nihilus.



Really? So I suppose me saying stuff like...

"Which leaves it to Revan/Anakin, and really - I'm not going to say who'd win for sure; though I'd lean towards Revan."

...that means I'm trying to reduce him to zip? Considering I hold Anakin is such a high regard, that's quite the contrary to what you're accusing me of doing.



Really? Throughout this entire debate you've gave short little spiels saying stuff like:



Implying Anakin is far out of his league.



Like you attempted to do here:





Irrelevant.



Say again? My logic does not dictate that whatsoever. Why would the Jedi of the PT be able to take them down when the Jedi of the OR couldn't even do that? What single Jedi stopped Exar Kun? None. Ulic was stripped of the Force in a weakened state emotionally, and unable to defend anyways. And the Ancient Sith? They practically killed each other off.



Actually I wasn't explaining it like that whatsoever. I was stating it in response to you saying that Revan was the strongest of the Lightside, which he's only the strongest of his own era in terms of the Lightside. In terms of the Darkside, as I said, Exar Kun > Revan and you didn't have a problem with that.

When I said Revan was the strongest I meant in his era, and if you wanna get technical, then he is just under Exar Kun. No I don't think Revan is a God although I would put him above anyone in the PT. And the way you described the Golden age of the PT, it seemed like you thought the PT Jedi could contend with the Old Republic, or sith. While I am on the topic, do you seem to have a star wars core book or DS Source book lying around? Just wondering.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
When I said Revan was the strongest I meant in his era, and if you wanna get technical, then he is just under Exar Kun.

Rather just under Ulic. Actually that would be a nice thread. Ulic vs. Revan, but I could care less considering this has nothing to do with Ulic.



The PT Jedi could contend with the OR Jedi. Certain Sith, however, no.



Nope, sorry. Though I would like to see if what you were claiming in the L&EU section is true, because that'd be quite something. Good luck on finding it, and hopefully it's right (though I believe Lightsnake has the DS Sourcebook).

Well I went to Glentract's site and it had it on there and then I read a thread about it here.. If it is true the Lightsnake purposely and conveniently left it out, and that would end all debates about Ragnos>all especially Sidious.. Also I don't believe Ulic>Revan so that would indeed be a good thread.

Here: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-341453-marka-ragnos-vs-njo-luke-skywalker.html

Are you talking about the stats for Marka vs. the stats for Luke?

Yes I am.. Indicating that if Ragnos>NJO Luke, then Ragnos>>>>DE Sidious, therefore Ragnos=Pauly Shore

quick question about revan's tactical abilities. Werent the books about Thrawn made before Kotor 1?

If thats true then Revan technically didnt exist before that time.

If this has been answered be4 then im sorry.

oh shit, good point, however Thrawn showed just a little more.

Originally posted by The Overmaster
quick question about revan's tactical abilities. Werent the books about Thrawn made before Kotor 1?

If thats true then Revan technically didnt exist before that time.

If this has been answered be4 then im sorry.

Yes, good point indeed...

Just kidding.

The Thrawn Trilogy did come out like...a long while (book 1991-1993, comics 1995-1997) however nothing in KOTOR contradicts Thrawn being the best tactician in the history of SW. Seeing as there's not a single statement by a narrator that Revan is the best tactician ever.

Release dates (or character creation for that matter) mean absolutely zilch unless there's a contradiction between certain pieces of work. In which this is not the case with Thrawn and Revan. Also I'm not even sure which book exactly it's stated in - it's either Heir to the Empire or Survivor's Quest, which was released in 2004. Either way, doesn't matter - Thrawn > Revan.

Not to mention the fact that we don't really have that much information about Revan's tactical abilities that would provide any kind of basis for establishing Revan as being the greatest tactician ever.

Second greatest yes. We might not know the specifics about his abilities, but the verbal fellatio about him being an uber tactician was repeatedly stated in KOTOR.

Well it's hard to compare them as tacticians, as they lived in very different eras, in general and in regards to war.

revan and malak would win. if malak is on level with dooku and dooku took down obi won twice then obi-won looses to malakand revan okills anakin with the force so...
malak vs obi won= malak
malak vs. anakin=anakin
revan vs obi won=revan
revan vs. anakin= revan
so i'd say the odds are in the dark lords favor

Except...

Anakin punked Dooku in, a minute, maybe. I see the same thing happening to Malak, only, maybe faster because Malak is blatantly an idiot. No way Revan could beat Obi, the Soresu Master in less than that. Anakin and Obi Wan tag team and kill Revan.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Except...

Anakin punked Dooku in, a minute, maybe. I see the same thing happening to Malak, only, maybe faster because Malak is blatantly an idiot. No way Revan could beat Obi, the Soresu Master in less than that. Anakin and Obi Wan tag team and kill Revan.

Oh really? Anakin>Malak? Wow... Ok prove that? And Revan in no way can beat Obiwan? Revan is more than likely superior to the entire PT Jedi at least in saber combat, with the exception of possibly Yoda.. I would think Anakin and Malak stalemate if not Malak owning him, and Revan would kill Anakin along with Malak.. You can't use A>B>C in this argument.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Oh really? Anakin>Malak? Wow...

Yes, really. Anakin > Malak.



Firstly, it'd be up to you to prove that Malak > Anakin considering it's widely accepted here that Malak (without the Star Forge) is equal to Count Dooku, who Anakin dropped within a minute of engaging him in single combat. On top of that Malak is definitely a pure brute, he's - in all likliness - not as intelligent as Tyranus.



That's not what he said, he said:





Yes, you'd actually have to prove that. Do you even know what form he uses? Do you even know how he defeated Malak?



How very logical. Malak owning "the strongest of his generation" (a stronger era in whole), or even stalemating him. You'd, of course, have to prove how Malak is superior to Dooku (as that's basically the standard acceptance).



Yes, and you can't use gameplay and unknown circumstances either.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Oh really? Anakin>Malak? Wow... Ok prove that? And Revan in no way can beat Obiwan? Revan is more than likely superior to the entire PT Jedi at least in saber combat, with the exception of possibly Yoda.. I would think Anakin and Malak stalemate if not Malak owning him, and Revan would kill Anakin along with Malak.. You can't use A>B>C in this argument.

Anakin does this, and that is only with the force:

Makes two droids shoot each other.
http://www.swcomics.com/republic_c.php?i=5&f=52&name=Clone_Wars_-_The_New_Face_Of_War_Part_2_of_2

Shoots scraps of metal at Durge like bullets.
http://www.swcomics.com/Republic_Era_c.php?i=20&f=29&name=Obsession_2_of_5

Tosses explosives at Durge.
http://www.swcomics.com/Republic_Era_c.php?i=8&f=30&name=Obsession_3_of_5

Smacks Durge around with the force.
http://www.swcomics.com/Republic_Era_c.php?i=14&f=30&name=Obsession_3_of_5

Guides a shuttle (of course, containing Durge, poor Durge ) into a star
http://www.swcomics.com/Republic_Era_c.php?i=15&f=30&name=Obsession_3_of_5

The energy from him and Obi sparring lifts up debris. http://www.swcomics.com/Republic_Era_c.php?i=5&f=31&name=Obsession_4_of_5

Helps rip through a metal wall in his Padawan days.
http://www.swcomics.com/republic_c.php?i=34&f=50&name=Clone_Wars_-_The_Defense_of_Kamino
http://www.swcomics.com/republic_c.php?i=35&f=50&name=Clone_Wars_-_The_Defense_of_Kamino

Throws some random crap around along with Asajj
http://www.swcomics.com/republic_c.php?i=19&f=71&name=Clone_Wars_-_Dreadnaughts_of_Rendili_Part_3_of_3

Ties up Asajj with the force using wires and crushes her.
http://www.swcomics.com/republic_c.php?i=20&f=71&name=Clone_Wars_-_Dreadnaughts_of_Rendili_Part_3_of_3

And he crushed a room full of medical supplies immediately after he got his suit and had any Sith training, so it's safe to assume that Anakin could do that too.
I'm sure there are more, but I think I've proved my point.

Compare that to specific examples of what either Revan or Malak have done. Specific. See that? Actual events, how difficult they are to do, and how they happened.

Wow. Finally someone else to help prove the point.

Nice job of course.

I'm so glad you have provided evidence relevant to a combat and not feat wars... Oh wait... Malak was the 2nd most powerful in the order of tens of thousands.. So what.. You haven't proven your point, you have listed irrelevant feat wars. Just because Anakin beat Dooku doesn't mean Anakin somehow is going to beat Malak. Possible but unlikely. And again it has been logically proven that Revan>Pt Jedi with the exception of Yoder.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Wow. Finally someone else to help prove the point.

Nice job of course.

Thanks.

But you know he's going to come back with something vague, like "Revan beat teh Malak on teh Star Forge!11!!!!"

Something vague? Notice how it is confirmed that Revan>all 3 of these combatants in the very least.. So the issue isn't even Revan here(which has been proven despite your apparent dislike for him). What IS logical is that Revan would beat Obiwan a hell of a lot quicker than Anakin would take Malak(assuming they don't stalemate). Your A>B>C argument doesn't work, otherwise Mace>Yoda because he defeated Sidious. So again, Revan defeats Obiwan, comes and helps Malak squash Anakin.

Hypocrite?

Specifics.

Specifics.

Specifics!!!

Uh what? Specifics of what? Unless you're going to argue here that Anakin>Revan or any others are >Revan, in which case refer to the Revan vs. Anakin thread.. And again, all you have are irrelevant feats and an A>B>C argument.. So let me one more time explain what is logcal..
Revan beats Obiwan before Anakin possibly beats Malak or stalemates, whatever. Revan comes and chops up Anakin with Malak.. OORRRRR

Malak defeats Obiwan with some difficulty while Revan has an epic duel with Anakin, and comes out on top, or waits for Malak.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I'm so glad you have provided evidence relevant to a combat and not feat wars...

You do realize that you've yet to provide any relevant, or rather any evidence at all, right?



And you say what jolly posted wasn't relevant? Anakin was the most powerful in an Order that is a more powerful era.



Sadly, since Malak is regarded as equal to Dooku (Dooku vs Malak), you'd have to prove that Malak is superior to Dooku.



Lol. Care to show me where exactly? The only logic is that he beat Malak in circumstances unknown in an "epic" battle. "Epic" meaning it was likely to be close and a hard battle; not a landslide win for Revan.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Hypocrite?

Specifics.

Specifics.

Specifics!!!

In case you don't get the point, name some feats that put Revan and Malak over Obi Wan and Anakin.

Sama, read my thread again, notice how I acknowledged that my mentioning of Malak being #2 was irrelevant. And for the millionth time, regardless of how you think the match went, this is a superpowered Malak who lost to a light side Revan. Now since regular Malak=Dooku, superpowered Malak>>Dooku...So that speaks a lot for Revan's abilities and in regards to him being superior to Anakin.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
In case you don't get the point, name some feats that put Revan and Malak over Obi Wan and Anakin.

What feats would make it relevant to a versus battle.. The fact that Revan are #1 and #2 already put them over Obiwan... And read my previous thread..

If they're #1 and #2, then they should have some accomplishments under their belts.

What are they?!

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
And for the millionth time, regardless of how you think the match went, this is a superpowered Malak who lost to a light side Revan.

Care to tell me what happened in that match btw? Oh? You can't? You see, when there's no known circumstances it's hard to see what went on. From Duron Qel-Droma's vision shows Revan with a lightsaber over Malak's head. Logically it's safe to assume it was a saber battle then, but who's to say he didn't pull a win Obi-Wan style (cheap shots, and lucky hits)? Or pull a blaster out, shoot Malak in the chest, and then finish his last breaths off with a lightsaber? Or use a mine (which doesn't even blow anyone up apparently), and then finish Malak off with a lightsaber.



The fact Revan's #1 in a weaker era puts him over? Btw, Ulic being the #2 of his era, and Exar Kun being the #1 of the era (40 years before KOTOR) are above Revan.

The fact that Yoda > Revan ("strongest foe the Darkside has ever known" - Revan being lightside canonically) and Anakin's quote compares him to ALL generations ("perhaps of any generation", so I don't see how Anakin is leagues below Revan, or Malak, for that matter.

Now, I've yet to here how well Revan would fair against Nihilus. So, it seems he's not a definite #1 for the era (As Ulic and Exar are above him), but only of the KOTOR game he was featured in.

Sama, irrelevant misdirection. I didn't put Revan over Yoda.. I put them in the same category, unless you want to start discussing the HOW.. Second of all I didn't put Revan leagues above Anakin, just above Anakin. And you can sit there all day and say "well maybe he was cheap like Obiwan", but it's been quite obvious in the SW world that the stronger combatant doesn't resolve to cheating or luck..So this isn't any different. As for Ulic>Revan, that is indeed quite debateable, because I don't see it that way.. I see Revan=Ulic.. And there's the fact that Kreia had never mentioned Ulic and Kun the way she did Revan, so you could use that as a measuring ground to some extent. Now why would you compare Revan to Nihilus? That's a ridiculous comparison. I put Nihilus in the same category as the Exile, in the "non compareable" category. Why not compare Nihilus to everyone else.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Sama, irrelevant misdirection.

No, it's not. You said Revan would own Anakin. I said, Yoda > Revan, and since Anakin is able to compete with Yoda, it's clear that Revan isn't that far ahead, if ahead at all.



How? Irrelevant (and you could never provide a "how" argument for Revan). Fact? Yes, ergo Yoda is Revan's superior. It doesn't matter "how", it just is.

I would, however, like to discuss "how" Revan beat Malak since it's a canonical event and not hypothetical.



Considering you were saying stuff like this:




I'd say that implies leagues above. Since, of course, regular old Malak is able to somehow stalemate or "possibly own" Anakin, and Revan beat a super-mega-omega-mecha-kamehehahahaha-10x Malak (who you've yet to substantiate how much power the Star Forge gave him. Quantify the powers, if you will) it would imply that Revan is leagues above Anakin.



Well, I get quite bored at the computer, so I doubt I'll be doing that. But considering it's circumstances unknown, I can say whatever the hell I want and it will be just as valid as what you *think*.



O RLY? Proof that Revan is definitely stronger than superpowered Malak? A quote if you will by a narrator and not a fallible third party character (also note you can't use his victory because it's unknown).

And even if you do provide that, I'll simply say it was an "epic" battle, which implies that Revan didn't win by a landslide firstly. Secondly, it's not a matter of just "pulling an Obi-Wan", there's about five hundred other possible explanations. And thirdly, it's circumstances unknown, and add to the fact Star Wars is known to have nonlinear events, and battles.



It's debatable, but Ulic's feats put him above Revan in my book. Though, we're getting off subject.



What? How can we use Kreia's words, who never even trained Ulic as a way to measure their power? Wow, Sexy, that's almost as illogical as using a fallible third party character (Kreia) as means to determine who's better. I mean, by using that logic, Revan > Exar Kun, because she never mentioned him that way. Or hell, even Ancient Sith > all because she treats them like gods.

I could just as easily say that Exar Kun is invincible because Jolee Bindo makes him out as such. Please, omniscient narrators and actual events > fallible third party text.

The thing is, Revan was easily the most powerful force user in an extremely martial era.

Anakin was imo the fifth or sixth most powerful in a far more peaceful era.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
The thing is, Revan was easily the most powerful force user in an extremely martial era.

Easily? Exar Kun > Revan. Ulic > Revan. He's easily the third most powerful. Now, if you're referring to the KOTOR games strictly, then yes - he's the most powerful in the games he is featured in.

And you can call it an "extremely martial era", but by George Lucas' own testimony the PT is where we see Jedi in their "prime", which means:

prime ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prm)
adj.
First in excellence, quality, or value. See Usage Note at perfect.
First in degree or rank; chief. See Synonyms at chief.
First or early in time, order, or sequence; original.
Of the highest U.S. government grade of meat.
Mathematics. Of, relating to, or being a prime number.

Clearly not a prime number. So that means the PT is the highest quality or excellence of Jedi, he elaborates on that and says that's the reason he wanted to make the PT duels so spectacular.



Thankfully Star Wars doesn't conform to fit your opinion. It revolves around canon, and the ROTS novelization (being more official than you) states Anakin was the most powerful (besides Yoda due to him dying in about twenty years).

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Easily? Exar Kun > Revan. Ulic > Revan. He's easily the third most powerful. Now, if you're referring to the KOTOR games strictly, then yes - he's the most powerful in the games he is featured in.

I was referring to the KOTOR era... And he's easily the most powerful in that particular era.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
And you can call it an "extremely martial era", but by George Lucas' own testimony the PT is where we see Jedi in their "prime", which means:

prime ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prm)
adj.
First in excellence, quality, or value. See Usage Note at perfect.
First in degree or rank; chief. See Synonyms at chief.
First or early in time, order, or sequence; original.
Of the highest U.S. government grade of meat.
Mathematics. Of, relating to, or being a prime number.

Clearly not a prime number. So that means the PT is the highest quality or excellence of Jedi, he elaborates on that and says that's the reason he wanted to make the PT duels so spectacular.

It's funny how people constantly make up statements in regards to the pt era. Lucas never said that. All Lucas said was that it was the Golden Age of the Jedi (he was actually reffering to the period before the clone wars). To the jedi, a golden age would be a relatively peaceful time. And since when were the pt duels so spectacular?



Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Thankfully Star Wars doesn't conform to fit your opinion. It revolves around canon, and the ROTS novelization (being more official than you) states Anakin was the most powerful (besides Yoda due to him dying in about twenty years).

Page numbr please? And imo Dooku, Mace Windu, Sidious and Yoda were all clearly superior. Obi-Wan was pretty close too.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
I was referring to the KOTOR era... And he's easily the most powerful in that particular era.

Yes, that's all good and well, GM.



Make up...? Okay, if you will - look at the reply after this...



O RLY?



Lying fanboys don't win arguments. He never even said "Golden Age", he said "Prime of the Jedi" in reference to the entire prequel trilogy.



I was quoting Lucas, you dolt. He said the PT (Ep. 1, 2, 3) was the "prime of the Jedi" and because of that he wanted to make the duels more spectacular (from what we saw in the OT), however, he makes perfectly clear that the PT is the prime of the Jedi, unless of course I'm delusional when I hear words like "...to see Jedi fighting in the prime of the Jedi, I wanted it to be a more energized version and a faster version...".

And I'd also like to know how the PT is "relatively peaceful" when there's war raging on throughout each of the movies (moreso Ep. 2 and 3), plus the simple fact that the PT is about how the Empire rose to power - which was not through peace.



"This is Anakin Skywalker:
The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace.
He is the best there is at what he does. The best there has ever been. And he knows it." - Revenge of the Sith novelization.

Check it if you want, it's in Chapter 1.

Which was to be demonstrated.

1. OK my bad, but when that article mentions that the jedi are at their prime, it is clear that the EU is not included, just the movies as there are constant comparisons made between the OT and PT, and choreography is the main aspect of the movies talked about. The EU is never taken into consideration.

2. The period between some time before TPM and just before AOTC was called The Golden Age of The Jedi, which would mean a peaceful democratic time where the Republic was at the height of its power. I mean the most practiced lightsaber form at the time was Niman, the diplomat's form. The thing is, martial times generally produce better warriors than peaceful times, and when the Clone Wars arrived, the jedi had molded into peacekeepers who were not prepared for such a war and while the Clone Wars made them more powerful, by the time of ROTS they were hardly as a whole, great warriors.

3. Ok I just read that bit, however I don't really trust statements like that. I mean I heard from someone that Lucas said, 'if you want to compete with the emporer, you need to be either Mace or Yoda.', which clearly contradicts that.

How did this get back to Nebaris vs. Sama? And Sama, you want a quote to prove Revan was stronger than Malak? Play the Star Forge level, listen carefully to what Malak said including "You are stronger now than you were as the Dark Lord". Revan was stronger than Malak when he was the Dark Lord, and MALAK himself saying that he's even stronger now should be conclusive. If it isn't conclusive for you, read the storyline for KOTOR when it states that "Revan proved too strong for Malak who was powered by the SF".

Malak even says to Revan that if he would have discovered the secrets of the SF for himself, perhaps he would have become invincible. Revan was able to defeat Malak when he was powered by the SF to an extremely high degree, and this was after he had progressed through a entire fortress full of dark jedi, sith soldiers and advanced battle droids. There is no way that Revan is not stronger than Malak.

Look I'll be back tomorrow night but 2 things..

Revan was confirmed to be more powerful than Malak in the Starforge. Yoda>Revan could mean force abilities, saber combat or both..
Anakin was NEVER on par with Yoda, if you said that(I think you did), you are wrong.
The fact that Revan beat Malak in the SF implies that he is superior to all 3 combatants and possibly inferior to only Yoda.

The article wasn't written by George Lucas, Mokoto.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
The article wasn't written by George Lucas, Mokoto.

EDIT: It's in the movie clip, George Lucas says it himself. For example, when you open your mouth to say "Mother, can I have some snausages?" that's the equivalent to what GL did, except he made a declarative and informative statement. He physically spoke those words as seen in the clip.

Well you could have been clearer. I thought you were referring to the article.

Anyway, when Gl stated 'Prime of The Jedi', he might have meant prime of the jedi order, which could have a meaning interpreted to be just like The Golden Age of The Jedi. He was also very vague when he said it, so you can't just assume that it disputes many pieces of EU material. There is also the fact that the whole video and article discusses choreography, and thus solely the movies. It seems that they were completely disregarding the EU at the time imo.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
EDIT: It's in the movie clip, George Lucas says it himself. For example, when you open your mouth to say "Mother, can I have some snausages?" that's the equivalent to what GL did, except he made a declarative and informative statement. He physically spoke those words as seen in the clip.

Great explanation Mokoto. Very witty.

The Jedi Order had a straight twenty five thousand years, you know...

'Despite the entire PT not being the Golden Age of the Jedi...I seem to remember a war raging on throughout Episodes 2 and 3. Am I delusional? I always thought the Jedi Code had to do with peace, and thus their "Golden Age" would be such. Clearly the entire PT is not the Golden Age of the Jedi, ergo your interpretation is wrong.'

The video was behind the scenes of not AOTC or ROTS, but TPM, which was part of The Golden Age of The Jedi... And I have already made it clear that the Golden Age of The Jedi was a time period between some point before TPM and up to The Battle of Geonosis.

'How exactly was he "vague"? Quit making shit up, GM.

How is the entire article called "Prime of the Jedi", the movie clip itself being entitled "Prime of the Jedi", and Lucas saying "...fighting in the prime of the Jedi" vague exactly? It's clear. The PT is the highest quality, or excellence of Jedi. '

GL mentions prime of the jedi twice (IIRC) and he used the term in a very casual vague way. He actually even looked kind of sleepy. And the way that the entire video talks about choreography, the way that Lucas compares what we as viewers saw in the OT and his vision for the PT (in terms of saber dueling) and the lack of reference to anything EU related leads me to believe that he was disregarding the entire of EU.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
The video was behind the scenes of not AOTC or ROTS, but TPM,

Relevance? He was referring to the entire prequel trilogy, ergo any point your attempting to make collapses.



Relevance? He was referring to the entire prequel trilogy, ergo the point your attempting to make collapses.



Originally posted by Motoko Sama
How exactly was he "vague"? Quit making shit up, GM.




Oh god...great reasonings, GM. It's hilarity at best when you say I don't make logical claims, but GL "looking sleepy" (what the f*ck kind of bullshit is this anyways?) is perfectly reasonable evidence to support your ridiculous theories.

I truly must commend you on this point, it puts you at a new low for arguing.



Irrelevant misdirection. The video is about choreography, but Lucas makes it clear that the is the prime of the Jedi (not just TPM, the entire trilogy).



His vision for the PT was the prime of the Jedi, and because of that, he wants to make the dueling more spectacular. That was made clear, and is understood by everyone except you.



And your lack of showing capable understanding and reasoning leads me to believe you are delusional. By this logic, nothing GL says has weight over the EU, because he very rarily mentions it anyways.

As the rest of the world has already made clear: George Lucas' words are gospel. He said the PT is the prime of the Jedi, ergo it is. You cannot argue with Lucas (and thus cannot win this argument). He made perfectly clear there is only one prime of the Jedi, and that would be...*gasp* the PT era.

"...we see Jedi fighting in the prime of the Jedi" - George Lucas.

Which was to be demonstrated.

Errrrg. I hate when i see battles like this. When people defending the movie characters use all the information that can possibly be found on the main characters (which is plentiful since they're the frigin main characters, duh) and then disclaim the opposing sides info ( which plentiful? not so much)

example: "revan defeated a SF powered Malak who is most likely
greater dooku"

" prove that revan didn't win by a lucky chance"


oh that's just great. No one can prove exactly how revan vs. malak went because it's GAMEPLAY. How about giving a fair argument, and (to people defending the dlots) don't give them information that they can cast off as mere speculation. please. thank you.

Fact: The thread clearly states ROTS anakin. Anakin has two years of experience in lightsaber-to-lightsaber dueling with the sith, and has proved time and time again that he is ruled by emotion and often lets it take the better of him in battle by a.) killing a tribe of tusken raiders after his mothers death b.) Letting his fear of losing Padme' (his love interest) dominate his entire destiny c.) Allowing his anger at Obi-wan distract him and cost him the duel, among other things, lol and d.) causing his own demise by being dominated by his conflicting emotions of loyalty and love.

Fact: Revan born into a galaxy were both the darkside and lightside flourished, therefore was trained with the intention to teach him how to confront and subdue/disarm/defeat said Sith. He proved that he was a levelheaded warrior by a.) Holding his forces back (in some way) so that he could turn around in force against the looming true sith threat b.) not succumbing to the power of the SF c.) resisting bastilas' (his love interest) offer of great power and d.) killing his old friend who had succumbed to the darkside

Inferring from these FACTS i believe Revan and Malak would take this duel

Originally posted by Darth Solus
Errrrg. I hate when i see battles like this. When people defending the movie characters use all the information that can possibly be found on the main characters (which is plentiful since they're the frigin main characters, duh) and then disclaim the opposing sides info ( which plentiful? not so much)

So, wait - you hate when people argue with evidence (information) to back up their claims?



Exactly, ergo because it's circumstances unknown his defeat over Malak, while impressive, is just that - unknown. So we don't know what happened at all, and you can't assume the logical route (Revan pwned Malak) because:

1.) Appeal to probability.
2.) Star Wars is known for having nonlinear and "out of the box" fights.

And here's some facts about your facts:

A.) Irrelevant. Shmi isn't around in this fight.
B.) Irrelevant. Padme isn't around in this fight.
C.) Irrelevant. Obi-Wan isn't around in this fight to play Padme's side love.
D.) Irrelevant. That was caused by other people, who aren't around in this fight.

I can see that when Anakin is thinking clearly, he utilizes his anger into power and remains somewhat stable (demonstrated against Dooku).

More facts about your facts:

Your first point is irrelevant. Jedi are trained to keep the peace, there wasn't even Sith around when Revan was in training, as Exar Kun had died before Revan was presumably even in training. And being "levelheaded" helps, though it doesn't mean an end all victory. Considering Obi-Wan was being tooled, and would've been killed by Anakin had he not been jumping around the terrain, and capturing the high ground.




So, because Revan is "levelheaded", and Anakin has been shown not to be (only on occasions that involved loves of his life) he wins? That's really the only facts you gave. I could just as easily argue that Anakin won't be moronic in this duel given his approach to Dooku:

"This time, we take him together..." - Obi-Wan.
"...I was about to say that" - Anakin.

Clearly learning from his mistakes.

One Question Mokoto: What do you think 'Prime of The Jedi' means exactly?

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
One Question Mokoto: What do you think 'Prime of The Jedi' means exactly?

Prime of the Jedi means just that, the best Jedi era we've seen. The best era of Jedi there is (in terms of power/physical/mental conditions), and I don't see how that's impossible seeing as everyone (whether off screen or on) is a "prodigy", "strong with the Force", "best swordsmen the Order has produced", etc.

You can argue it simply means "Golden Age", but that wouldn't be true. Why? Simple, Lucas was referring to the prequel trilogy as a whole; not one movie, and because of that I can infer that it doesn't mean "Golden Age" (peace and harmony) since throughout Episodes 2 and 3 there is clearly no peace. On top of the fact that the PT is about how the Empire rose to power - which as I've said twenty six times before - was not through peaceful negotiations.

Actually, he is discussing the choreography for TPM...

To me, the Prime of The Jedi would be the jedi at its highest point, which would imply relative peace and a democratic government with the Republic at the height of its power. Lucas is reffering to TPM when he states that it was 'The Prime of The Jedi'. The whole video and article was about TPM, not the whole PT, and TPM was part of The Golden Age of The Jedi, or Prime of The Jedi or whatever you want to call it. So sadly, 'The Prime of The Jedi' says nothing about the combat capabilities of the jedi. So unlucky, Mokoto.

O, gee..a direct reference to COMBAT when the Prime is mentioned when the top duelists the Jedi Order's ever known just happens to live. Right

What?

well malak and anakin could go either way because malak is(suposedly) on level with dooku. Even so revan kills obi-won and then if malak looses revan and anakin fight. Somehow i don't see anakin coming out alive. Also for the record Revan is one of the greatest sith of his time. The raktans talk about it. In the game everyone always talks about how powerfull revan is. Also, let's not get into another Malak= Dooku fight about what i wrote.I've had enough to shoot myself. Oh yeah we should really stay on topic to.

Is this thread still going on? I'll end it again..

Revan's team wins whether Revan fights Anakin or Obiwan..

Nice logic.

Actually I have provided a logical argument time and time again. Proving Revan as the top combatant of these 4 wasn't difficult.

F'ing Tdtd is back....

Oh great, yet another uneducated troll making baseless assumptions/accusations. I've yet to notice 1 NON troll accuse me of anything. What do I mean by non troll? Oh yes, a troll would be a useless member of this forum coming into a thread offering absolutely nothing.

You've proven nothing, Darth.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Oh great, yet another uneducated troll making baseless assumptions/accusations. I've yet to notice 1 NON troll accuse me of anything. What do I mean by non troll? Oh yes, a troll would be a useless member of this forum coming into a thread offering absolutely nothing.

Are you that embarassed about your former persona that you cant admit who you really are?

You can't possibly still be typing and trolling around can you?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You can't possibly still be typing and trolling around can you?

You still havent learned the definition of troll I see, but yes Im still here.

Hey sweetness if I want your opinion, I'll ask the next clueless imbecile walking into a thread blindly.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Hey sweetness


I think hes coming on to you dude.

Sex is just a gender..

Who mentioned anything about sex, sexy...

Nebaris, I'm getting quite tired of continuously disproving your ridiculous theories, but for the sake of humanity, I can not allow your lack of capable reasoning to go unanswered to.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
Actually, he is discussing the choreography for TPM...

He's discussing the choreography for the entire movies, unless you're going to argue that he only wanted the lightsaber duels (and there was only one in TPM) to be "more energized version and a more faster version" in TPM alone, then I suggest you get a grip of reality. You can also use the dialogue he uses to describe the OT, and infer that he means the entire prequel trilogy because of his description of how the PT will differ from the OT.



Yes, to you the following statements are correct, however, to the rest of the world they are wrong.



1.) "Relative peace"? There wasn't even relative peace in TPM itself! Queen Amidala was in danger of getting assassinated, the Trade Federation wanted to seize Naboo, and a huge battle erupted.

2.) How exactly would it make sense for the fights to be "more energized/faster/extravagant/spectacular/etc" if it's in a time of "relative peace"?

3.) You're arguing with the Lucas, logic, and everything in between. As I said before, I suggest you stop.

4.) Instead of me posting the six definitions of "prime" from the dictionary, I'll give it to you from the thesaurus (quick def.):

Main Entry: prime
Part of Speech: noun 1
Definition: best

Since Lucas was referring to the entire PT era (and he was, it's stupidity on your part to argue it), your points are defeated.



Again (in case you missed it the first time): He's discussing the choreography for the entire movies, unless you're going to argue that he only wanted the lightsaber duels (and there was only one in TPM) to be "more energized version and a more faster version" in TPM alone, then I suggest you get a grip on reality. You can also use the dialogue he uses to describe the OT, and infer that he means the entire prequel trilogy because of his description of how the PT will differ from the OT.



Maybe because AOTC and ROTS weren't released yet (though that's not to say Lucas didn't know what he wanted for them)? Lucas makes clear that it's his vision for the entire PT (being the "Prime of the Jedi" that he wants all the lightsaber duels to differ from what we saw in the OT ("old men, crippled half droid/half men, young boys", not just in TPM alone where we only see one freaking duel.



So, sadly, because "The Prime of the Jedi" says everything about the Jedi of the era, and because you're illogical (and can't accept being wrong, I mean really - making up shit like "Lucas looked tired"? lol) your theories are disproved, and my facts stand.



Only unlucky that I have to deal with your bull, Nebaris.

Originally posted by Darth Nihiuls
well malak and anakin could go either way because malak is(suposedly) on level with dooku.

If Malak is on par with Dooku, why would it go either way? I seem to remember this happening at the end of the duel:

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/6591/byedookyin8.jpg

For clarification, the person holding the two lightsabers is Anakin Skywalker, the man about to be beheaded is Count Dooku. Meaning Anakin > Dooku (on top of seven other sources that confirm it was a fair win), so Malak dies as well. Add to the fact Malak is not as intelligent as Dooku, and you have a dead Malak within a minute.



You do realize "one of the greatest" could be anybody that's not the worst, right?



A primitive race no less who hasn't seen magical powers in a millenia = fallible third party characters.



And? What does this have to do with anything? Do they specifically say "Revan is stronger than Anakin"? No? Okay then. Anakin is also the most powerful from his generation, so I fail to see how Revan being the most powerful of his means anything.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Is this thread still going on? I'll end it again..

It never ended, so tell me exactly how you plan on ending it again?



Originally posted by jollyjim311
Wow, Sexy! That's some seriously sound logic you have there. Great job on proving your case! I mean, how could anyone deny that Revan > Anakin because you say so, right? Bravo.

Edited response for top level sarcasm.



Ah! How could I forget? You're argument that "Revan pwns Anakin and Obi-Wan because he beat Darth 'Jawless Wonder' Malak in circumstances unknown! While the 'Jawless Wonder' was being supercharged by the unsubstantiated, unquantified, unspecified powers of Star Forge!"

Not hard at all, Sexy.

2. Lucas said that he wished for the fighting to be like that in comparison to the OT, because in the OT, they only had an old man, a half crippled droid and a boy who hadn't been trained properly whereas in TPM, in The Prime of The Jedi, there would be a complete jedi order full of jedi knights.

3. No, I'm arguing with you because for some reason, you seem to believe that Prime of The Jedi somehow translates into the strongest jedi order ever. The jedi don't think of themselves as warriors, but they realise that it is their duty to occasionally step up because they are naturally more powerful becasuse of the abilities they receive through the force. Their highest point, or Prime of The Jedi would not neccesarily be the point at which they were most powerful - it doesn't say anything about power.

4. The problem here is that the whole article including the bit about 'The Prime of The Jedi' was discussed in a choreographic (I think that's a word ?) point of view, which automatically disregards everything except the movies. This is where your argument fails.

The thing is, Revan was able to progress through an enitire fortess of dark jedi, sith soldiers and battle droids (probably a mixture of sneaking and attacking with the help of his jedi companions, HK and Canderous imo). He was then able to fend off Bastilla's attacks (while she was consumed by the dark side and powered by the Star Forge and turn her back to the light. And he was finally able to defeat Malak, who was not only powered by the Star Forge to a high degree but who had grown extremely powerful since Revan had last been dark lord.

That feat alone puts him above Skywalker.

Not even a little.

Read virtually any book, excerpt, or comic where it talks about Anakin's power, then come back.

In regards to coreography, the PT Jedi are fast paced and acrobatic.

In KOTOR, they do the same moves over and over, and waddle back and forth for two seconds after they attack.

Again, Revan>Anakin has been debated. We don't need to read about Anakin's feat wars. Nothing puts Anakin ahead of Revan, NOTHING. Not the fact that he beat Dooku, not the fact that he got beat by Obiwan, not the "omg he's the chosen one and his potential is limitless" crap. Revan beating SF powered Malak alone puts him above everyone but Anakin.

And I suppose Malak is more powerful than people like Dooku or Windu?

You know that for a fact now?

You saying that you won't pay attention to anything Anakin has done and just stubbornly saying that he is better is kind of immature.

Anakin's feat wars are irrelevant considering Revan's were more impressive.. I'm putting Malak on the level of Dooku yes. Revan defeated a star forge powered+jedi powered Malak, who is obviously superior to Dooku. That simple fact puts Revan above Anakin, no need for other feats.

How did Revan beat Malak? What form did he use? Did he get a cheap-shot? How much does the Starforge help?

You can't just say that puts him above Anakin, because it doesn't.

Sexy, tell me exactly how defeating Malak in circumstances unknown while he was being charged by the unsubstantiated, unquantified, unspecified powers of the Star Forge puts him above Anakin.

For Nebaris,

2.) That's my point exactly, you dolt. Lucas' vision for the entire PT is "a more energized and a more faster version". Unless you're telling me that he only wanted that in TPM alone where there's only one duel.

3.) You seem to argue with logic, Lucas, definitions, and everything in between. Your arguments are nonsensical, and really - as the rest of the world has already acknowledged, PT > any other era. Do you know what "prime" means?

Main Entry: prime
Part of Speech: noun 1
Definition: best

"Best of the Jedi".

4.) The movie clip being on Episode 1's webdocs is irrelevant because of the context he stated it in, he was speaking as if he was in the movie or something, "...to see Jedi fighting (choreography) in the 'Prime of the Jedi' (best of the Jedi) I wanted it to be a more energized version and a more faster version". He compares the OT (as a whole) to what the PT will become, not just TPM. There was only one lightsaber duel, what the hell do you think? Lucas only wanted the one duel in TPM to be "more energized and faster"? No. As we see from the rest of the movies, they all have those properties. Your argument has already been failing you for about five or six replies now.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
How did Revan beat Malak? What form did he use? Did he get a cheap-shot? How much does the Starforge help?

You can't just say that puts him above Anakin, because it doesn't.

Exactly. I suspect a response to go like this: "etc, etc, etc, etc", with no real answers or information.

Actually it does put him above Anakin. I don't have to quantify how much the SF helps because it is clear that you have to be extremely powerful to use it, and it empowered Malak to a certain extent. Now I see youre trying to use Sama's argument so let me clear it up for you. Revan was superior to Malak, even on the SF, even powered by 8 Jedi. So the simple fact remains, why get a cheap shot in when you're the more powerful one? No, it's more logical to say he defeated Malak in a climatic duel. Yoda is the only one in the PT era who is superior to Revan.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Sexy, tell me exactly how defeating Malak in circumstances unknown while he was being charged by the unsubstantiated, unquantified, unspecified powers of the Star Forge puts him above Anakin.

Well Sama for one, you asked me for proof that Revan was more powerful than Malak since you wanted to speculate that Revan cheated. Secondly out of the entire order of tens of thousands, only Malak and Revan had the ability to use the SF. "Others have tried to use it, and it corrupted them and destroyed them because they were not powerful enough". The fact that Revan became even MORE powerful when turning back to the light side, not LESS powerful, is a testament of his power. Now quantifying Malak's power is irrelevant unless of course you'd like to state that Anakin>Malak powered by the SF, and 8 Jedi.. I've already shown you that a Star Forge powered Malak>Dooku. By how much, we don't know. Could be by a lot or by a little. And Revan>Malak. So more likely than not, Revan>Anakin by a lot or a little.

Revan killed Malak in a saber duel, this's definite.

However, nothing says at all Anakin is lower than Revan, given Anakin's top status among the prime of the Jedi

Again
Malak=Dooku
SF Powered+8 Jedi Malak>>Dooku.. Either by a lot of by a little.
Revan>SF Powered+8 Jedi Malak
Revan>Anakin by either a lot or a little.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Actually it does put him above Anakin.

No, one unsubstantiated, unquantified, unspecified defeat does not equal Revan being > Anakin.



Okay, I will then. It only increases your powers for one minute, and it only give you 1/20 of your natural power. There, that assertion of how much the Star Forge gives you is as completely valid as you saying it increases power tenfold since you cannot prove a thing.



And? We've established Malak is powerful (on par with Dooku), so I don't see what the hell this has to do with anything.



So did Vaapad to Mace Windu. I guess Mace Windu empowered by Vaapad = on par with Malak powered by the Star Forge? Since, of course, you haven't proved a thing on how much the Star Forge increases your power.



Proof? And doesn't he only drain them for life?



Obi-Wan defeated Anakin in a "climatic duel", but he used cheap tactics. Firstly, appeal to probability for you to say "well, Revan > Malak, so he owned him without using cheap tricks", and when you say things such as "The superior always wins, etc." that's appeal to tradition.

You have little to no knowledge of the extent to which Revan beat Malak, and because of such, you cannot make a correct assumption.



Well...if Yoda is superior to Revan, then how exactly is Revan > Anakin? Dooku was able to hold off Yoda even after fighting Obi-Wan and Anakin, using his Force powers, etc. ROTS Anakin also dropped the same Dooku that did all that, so it is reasonable to believe that Anakin can compete with Yoda as well, and therefore having a nice chance against Revan as well.

And Sexy, you do realize your entire argument falls apart because of this single statement:



Exactly, ergo you cannot tell me if it only gives him 1/20 of his power, or 9/10, and because of that your argument basically collapses due to lack of proof (and you stating "unless you're going to tell me Anakin > Malak/SF/8 Jedi" also falls because of that).

Which was to be demonstrated.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Again
Malak=Dooku
SF Powered+8 Jedi Malak>>Dooku.. Either by a lot of by a little.

What if by a little then? Anakin firmly is > Dooku, and is "far more powerful" (Sidious' statement), so how exactly can you conclude Malak/SF > Anakin at all?

To make this quick: you can't.



Incomplete comparisons, and invalid proof.

Whoa whoa appeal to probability? Explain that one Sama? I just explained to you that if Revan is stronger than Malak, not to mention this is a light side Revan, what in the WORLD would make him need to use cheap tactics? Explain that, prove that, give me situations where that's happened before. AFter all that, since you're hellbent on proving Revan=nothing, please provide how Anakin>Revan.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Whoa whoa appeal to probability? Explain that one Sama?

You're saying that because Revan is stronger than Malak while being empowered by the Star Forge (and where's the proof anyways?) that it's inevitable to think Revan used a cheap shot, or anything else other than Revan pwned Malak fairly. It's appeal to probability because just on the account of the fact that something is likely to happen (and I'd submit that's not even likely given Star Wars duels as a whole), that's what happened (or at least, that's how you're treating it).



What does him being Lightside has to do with anything? Obi-Wan in TPM was Lightside, Obi-Wan in ROTS was Lightside, and so on. It's also not just "cheap tactics", it's a lucky shot, too. What makes me believe that? You saying Malak is described as "unstoppable", Malak being a pure brute and more than likely physically stronger than Revan, and Malak using eight Jedi to drain life from makes me think he could've used a lucky shot, or a cheap trick to win.

Also the fact it's unknown, and it doesn't even have to be likely to happen.



Just did.



Prove what? We don't even know what happened, so WTF is there for me to "prove"? You can only explain a thought that's surrounded by circumstances unknown.



ROTS? TPM (from both Maul and Kenobi)? Hell, it's even possible Revan tapped into the Darkside to defeat Malak a la TPM Kenobi, and ROTJ Luke (notice they still remained fully to the Lightside).

On top of the facts, I don't have to give you anything; because it doesn't have to happen before to happen again.



Sexy, if you're going to bombard me with questions, at least make sure they are in league with each other. WTF does me disproving your theories on how much the Star Forge powers its user, and explaining that there's more than one possibility for how Revan beat Malak have to do with Anakin > Revan?

You are the one making the assertions of Revan > Anakin, I'm simply answering said assertions, and questioning them as well. Currently, I'm not even thinking about how good Anakin is in comparison to Revan, I'm thinking about Revan's defeat of Malak and the Star Forge as an actual event.

And "hellbent"? Please. I just can't stand KOTOR fanboys who think Revan > all because of unknown events, and then go as far as to use that as means for an argument.

Revan=/all.. Nobody ever said that, so please stop assuming things putting words into my mouth, and using a baseless personal attack in calling me a Revan fanboy, it's a logical fallacy and untrue. And for the last time, if you read the KOTOR storyline, it would state exactly that Revan was more powerful than even a star forge powered Malak, while Malak says the same thing near his death, including "You are stronger than you were when you were the Dark Lord". So there's your proof.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Revan=/all.. Nobody ever said that, so please stop assuming things and putting words into my mouth.

In your mouth? That last statement was in general. It wasn't to you, so don't assume just because I put in a reply to you that it is to you. Let me go over that with you:



So unless you are a KOTOR fanboy, and unless you think Revan > all - then I don't know why you're responding. On top of all that, "Revan > all" is an exaggeration.



Read what? What in the world is the "KOTOR storyline"?



You call Malak's statement proof?

Just because he's stronger than his Dark Lord incarnate, doesn't mean he's more powerful than Malak empowered by the Star Forge. All it really means...well, is just that - he's stronger than his Darkside incarnation.

On the other hand, WTF is the "KOTOR storyline"?

That Revan becomes more powerful than a star forge powered Malak.

No, WTF is "the KOTOR storyline"? I.e. Not the quote, WTF is it, lol.