The Great Genre Debate Thread!

Alpha Centauri

Bardock, don't listen to him, he has all the musical knowledge of Ashlee Simpson. He's speciality is thinking he knows, not actually knowing things.

Metal is simple to define, compare Metallica to Led Zeppelin. Faster, heavier, tends to me a lot more aggressive lyrically, but is also often mixed with moments of beauty as well as brutality, both musically and lyrically.

Metal is usually defined by the way the instruments are played. Harder, faster and more precise rhythms and structures, though this isn't always the case.

To answer your question, it's simple; The only genres that essentially need to be recognised by any comfortable, secure music fan are as follows:

Rock, metal, pop, hip hop, jazz, country etc. Those are the main genres, some of which, specifically rock and metal, have a few acceptable sub-genres.

The sub-genres for rock (although I rarely use these, I see no point) are as follows: Hard rock (Tool, Zeppelin etc.), soft rock (Grandaddy, Iron & Wine etc.), progressive rock (A bit blurry now, but you could say Rush, Yes, E.L.P, King Crimson; though they hate the label.) and instrumental rock (Godspeed, Esmerine etc.). That's about as far as you need to go with rock and its sub-genres.

Metal's acceptable sub-genres are as follows: Heavy metal (Black Sabbath, Pantera), thrash metal (Metallica, Slayer, Megadeth etc.), black metal (Emperor; Though they extended into so many permutations of metal, rock and classical that it's silly to call them anything besides that which they are mostly; metal. Darkthrone, Satyricon etc.), death metal (Morbid Angel etc.), and I suppose you could say power metal (Dragonforce etc.). The latter being largely metal based instrumentation with very soft melody and fantasy orientated lyrical references.

That said, I only know those genres incase something like this happens. I stick to rock, metal etc. It does the job and it's never wrong, always applicable. To refer to a band generally as metal is not as bad as trying to box them and doing so incorrectly.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
So what do you think, Bardock42? Is Hawthorne Heights, headbanging, moshing, hail-to-sataning material that goes with the ranks of Slayer and Amon Amarth? stick out tongue

Slayer never do any of that in any seriousness.

A) Amon Amarth sound nothing like Slayer.

B) If it doesn't sound like Slayer, it's not metal? What a fool you are. Metal is one of the biggest genres there is, including such bands as Meshuggah, Slayer, Opeth and System of a Down.

C) None of those bands sound like each other, but they are all metal. Hawthorne Heights, on top of being shit, also sound nothing like them, but they are still metal.

Silverstein

funny cuz Hawthorne Heights is categorized under Rock/Post Hardcore/Pop Punk

roll eyes (sarcastic)

those damn metal heads creating useless names psshh, power metal, black metal? hahahah

Bardiel13

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Slayer never do any of that in any seriousness.

A) Amon Amarth sound nothing like Slayer.

B) If it doesn't sound like Slayer, it's not metal? What a fool you are. Metal is one of the biggest genres there is, including such bands as Meshuggah, Slayer, Opeth and System of a Down.

C) None of those bands sound like each other, but they are all metal. Hawthorne Heights, on top of being shit, also sound nothing like them, but they are still metal.

Congratulations, Alpha Centauri! You're officially talking out of your arse! I know Amon Amarth and Slayer sound nothing alike! Did you actually think that I was saying that Amon Amarth and Slayer were both a certain type of metal?! Slayer is Thrash Metal and Amon Amarth is Melodic Death Metal, I know this.
You think you're all-knowing, but what you're really doing is trying to twist my words to make me sound stupid. I know there are tons of sub-genres of metal! I know almost all of them by heart!
Now tell me, if Hawthorne Heights are metal, what genre do they fit into? I know they're not: Thrash, Death, Black, Power, Folk, Progressive, Nu, Metalcore, Grindcore, or Heavy. Do you simply think they're Alternative Metal? Come on, tell me.

I've tried to go through this agrument without stooping to your petty name-calling and insulting your intelligence by making stupid claims (to think that I was saying that Slayer and Amon Amarth are alike... please...)

Alpha Centauri

Originally posted by Silverstein
funny cuz Hawthorne Heights is categorized under Rock/Post Hardcore/Pop Punk

roll eyes (sarcastic)

those damn metal heads creating useless names psshh, power metal, black metal? hahahah

So? I've seen Fall Out Boy catagorised as emo, as punk, it doesn't mean they are. Hawthorne Heights are a metal band, that's all there is to it.

Black metal etc are not useless labels, there are massively clear creative and technical definitions used by musicians and listeners alike that divide those genres. The same cannot be said for idiots who use terms like "Nintendocore", junior. It's all you silly teens saying "Oh it sounds a bit different so lets call it this!" or "It's made with a console so it's called Nintendocore.".

Originally posted by Bardiel13
You think you're all-knowing, but what you're really doing is trying to twist my words to make me sound stupid. I know there are tons of sub-genres of metal! I know almost all of them by heart!

First of all, I don't think I'm all-knowing, I just know that I am more knowledgeable and credible on this subject than you are. Second, you are the one making yourself look stupid, not me. I'm the one who can give examples, timeframes and reasoning. All you do is claim you know a lot because you like metal.

You know the labels that MySpace kids create, congratulations. Your trophy is in the mail. This is irrelevant as they mean nothing.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
I know they're not: Thrash, Death, Black, Power, Folk, Progressive, Nu, Metalcore, Grindcore, or Heavy. Do you simply think they're Alternative Metal? Come on, tell me.

Nu metal is extinct, more or less. Folk? Folk metal? What the hell are you on about now, you idiot? There's no such thing as folk metal.

Second, I don't recognise metalcore or grindcore as legitimate labels, so strike those off the list. They're pointless, because those bands are just different metal bands, alternative metal if you simply crave a label. I just call them metal, since they make a variation of metal music. It doesn't need a label, it's metal, so the label metal is enough.

For the record, all you are proving is that you are naive; furthermore, you did say that Slayer and Amon Amarth were alike, certainly implied it.

Look: "Is Hawthorne Heights, headbanging, moshing, hail-to-sataning material that goes with the ranks of Slayer and Amon Amarth?".

Stop trying to weasel out of it. You obviously hold the belief that they have fans who mosh, satanic lyrical matter and as a result, are alike.

-AC

C-Dic

I didn't want to delve into this, but I hate the whole "post-hardcore" genre label. It's a MySpace spawned, unnecessary evil, and a lot of bands are unfairly clumped into the group, and their namesake marred.

Throwdown? Hatebreed? All That Remains? Bleeding Through? These guys are considered "post hardcore"? Post implies that these bands fashioned themselves after hardcore musics supposed demise, when that's not the case. Hardcore is still alive. Just because the drum track doesn't include lines of symbol crashes and gallops, accompanied by a low tuned, two chord progression doesn't mean it's not hardcore. The bands lyrics, are by definitition, hardcore grade, most of the time.

Call it "hardcore metal", call it "metal", but this "post-hardcore" is about as silly a label as screamo/grindcore/deathcore bullshit subcategorization.

Alpha Centauri

Post- labels make no sense anyway. The idea, maybe, but not the labels.

-AC

Bardock42

What genres do Radiohead, Rage Against the Machine and The Smiths fall into. (well, sub-genres)

Silverstein

how come metal is allowed sub genres and these _____ metal names, but when Hardcore develops its own sub genres its ______core names, its suddenly useless? kids dont make up these sub genres, they're made by musicians and listeners alike that divide those genres.

Happy Dance

Bardiel13

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
So? I've seen Fall Out Boy catagorised as emo, as punk, it doesn't mean they are. Hawthorne Heights are a metal band, that's all there is to it.

Black metal etc are not useless labels, there are massively clear creative and technical definitions used by musicians and listeners alike that divide those genres. The same cannot be said for idiots who use terms like "Nintendocore", junior. It's all you silly teens saying "Oh it sounds a bit different so lets call it this!" or "It's made with a console so it's called Nintendocore.".

First of all, I don't think I'm all-knowing, I just know that I am more knowledgeable and credible on this subject than you are. Second, you are the one making yourself look stupid, not me. I'm the one who can give examples, timeframes and reasoning. All you do is claim you know a lot because you like metal.

You know the labels that MySpace kids create, congratulations. Your trophy is in the mail. This is irrelevant as they mean nothing.

Nu metal is extinct, more or less. Folk? Folk metal? What the hell are you on about now, you idiot? There's no such thing as folk metal.

Second, I don't recognise metalcore or grindcore as legitimate labels, so strike those off the list. They're pointless, because those bands are just different metal bands, alternative metal if you simply crave a label. I just call them metal, since they make a variation of metal music. It doesn't need a label, it's metal, so the label metal is enough.

For the record, all you are proving is that you are naive; furthermore, you did say that Slayer and Amon Amarth were alike, certainly implied it.

Look: "Is Hawthorne Heights, headbanging, moshing, hail-to-sataning material that goes with the ranks of Slayer and Amon Amarth?".

Stop trying to weasel out of it. You obviously hold the belief that they have fans who mosh, satanic lyrical matter and as a result, are alike.

-AC

This, class, is what I've come to know as "Classic Alpha Centauri." Once again, you've proven to twist my words to make me sound ignorant. The whole "Moshing, Headbanging, Hail-to-sataning" thing? It was a JOKE, pal. A JOKE. You know what was also a joke? My label as "Genre Nazi." But, it seems I've met the real thing. My hat's off to you. You see, I've tryed to keep this light. As for you, it seems that you hate me. I'm not name-calling or assuming you hate me, that's your sort of thing. It's just the impression I'm getting from you.
Now, as for Grindcore and Metalcore, just because you don't recognize them doesn't make them illigit. The majority of the metal fandom is familiar with those two, and yes Alt Metal is just for any band that NEEDS a label. You can't simply say "Well, I don't believe in Metalcore and Grindcore, so we shall not speak of them!" That's simply not how it works.
As for credibility in genres, you can copy/paste all the definitions in the world, but I've come to know these genres from years of listening and studying them. For all I know, you're knowlege in metal can be nothing more than Wikipedia. I'm not saying it's from Wikipedia, though, so please don't try to twist my words, again. Thanks.
Folk Metal? Oh, you missed one, did you? That's a shame, and it's not a genre you can "wish away" like Grindcore and Metalcore. It's actually quite defined. Folk Metal is the metal version of Folk Rock. It uses the elements of Heavy Metal, with folklore lyrics and traditional insturments of the subject. A few examples of this genre are Wuthering Heights, Touko, and Skiltron. Oh, and I forgot to mention Doom Metal in my list. Another very defined genre, that I should assume you're going to denounce. But, I'll save myself the trouble of having to describe it.

Bardiel13

Silverstein

Originally posted by Bardiel13
I assume you're joking, correct?

ok hmm, lemme explain.

falloutboy is pop punk: i dont care what this band is really

hawthorne is not metal: they aren't metal

"Black metal etc ARE useless labels, there are basically the same, its all just, growly yelling vocals, and some guitar solos"

im trying to show the irony of what AC says: that grindcore n metalcore are too similar, etc. Well Same can be argued about metal, its all about the listener and/or inexperience about the (sub)genre

Metal has many different sounds that can be classified with sub genres, same goes for stuff like Hardcore/metalcore/grindcore/______core they all have aspects of hardcore with its own unique twist, just like Metal's sub genres. But unlike metal, there is no slowcore, heavycore, or deathcore/powercore...

For your average listener, they probably cannot tell the difference between grindcore and metalcore, but same can go for someone who doesn't listen to heavy metal, and death metal. Once you listen to more than one band in those sub genres, you will be able to tell the differences and uniqueness.

Bardiel13

Originally posted by Bardock42
What genres do Radiohead, Rage Against the Machine and The Smiths fall into. (well, sub-genres)
Now, this isn't my domain, but here's my impression.

Radiohead is probably Avant-Garde Alternative Rock (AC, I swear to God, if you try to bash me for using Avant-Garde as a label... seriosuly, I know what I'm doing)
RATM is probably a blend of Rap(core?), Funk-oriented Metal, and Hard Rock.
The Smiths, I'd say are Alternative Pop Rock.
That's at least my impression of their styles.

Bardiel13

Originally posted by Silverstein

"Black metal etc ARE useless labels, there are basically the same, its all just, growly yelling vocals, and some guitar solos"

im trying to show the irony of what AC says: that grindcore n metalcore are too similar, etc. Well Same can be argued about metal, its all about the listener and/or inexperience about the (sub)genre

Metal has many different sounds that can be classified with sub genres, same goes for stuff like Hardcore/metalcore/grindcore/______core they all have aspects of hardcore with its own unique twist, just like Metal's sub genres. But unlike metal, there is no slowcore, heavycore, or deathcore/powercore...

For your average listener, they probably cannot tell the difference between grindcore and metalcore, but same can go for someone who doesn't listen to heavy metal, and death metal. Once you listen to more than one band in those sub genres, you will be able to tell the differences and uniqueness.

Alrighty, just checking to see if we're on the same page.

Alpha Centauri

Originally posted by Silverstein
falloutboy is pop punk, hawthorne is not metal, Black metal etc ARE useless labels, there are basically the same, its all just, growly yelling vocals, and some guitar solos.

im going to give up, cuz you not recognizing these legitmate labels, is simply just your own opinion and not fact at all. Your power metal, death metal, are useless and un necessary labels, because they all sound the same. Heavy metal or soft metal, its still metal right? roll eyes (sarcastic)

Kid, I don't care if you give up or not, you're wrong. Let's get to the matter at hand, though. Fall Out Boy pop PUNK? Fall Out Boy haven't got anything to do with punk, that's exactly what the problem is with kids like you. You think anybody who makes pop music with real instruments automatically becomes punk. It doesn't work like that.

Black metal is different to death metal, totally. The vocals are sharper and more biting in black metal, the music tends to be more focused on technical and orchestral melody, where as in death metal the vocals are more gutteral and even though the music can be very technical, it's more natural. There is a reason, legitimate reason, behind those. There isn't one behind "Nintendocore".

Originally posted by Bardiel13
This, class, is what I've come to know as "Classic Alpha Centauri." Once again, you've proven to twist my words to make me sound ignorant.

No, you did that yourself.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
The whole "Moshing, Headbanging, Hail-to-sataning" thing? It was a JOKE, pal. A JOKE. You know what was also a joke? My label as "Genre Nazi." But, it seems I've met the real thing. My hat's off to you. You see, I've tryed to keep this light. As for you, it seems that you hate me. I'm not name-calling or assuming you hate me, that's your sort of thing. It's just the impression I'm getting from you.

F*ck, one second. My hypocrite alert just went crazy, I have to turn off the alarm...ok I'm back, what were you saying? Oh, right.

You were trying to say you were joking this whole time, simply because I've taught you a lesson. It happens, don't hate me for it, hate yourself.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Now, as for Grindcore and Metalcore, just because you don't recognize them doesn't make them illigit. The majority of the metal fandom is familiar with those two, and yes Alt Metal is just for any band that NEEDS a label. You can't simply say "Well, I don't believe in Metalcore and Grindcore, so we shall not speak of them!" That's simply not how it works.

It doesn't matter what the world is familiar with, because if it did, then My Chemical Romance would be considered emo, and I think even we can agree they are nothing of the sort.

Alternative metal is just saying different metal, it's legitimate. It's not as stupid as grindcore/deathcore/gothcore/post-punk/post-hardcore and shit like that.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
As for credibility in genres, you can copy/paste all the definitions in the world, but I've come to know these genres from years of listening and studying them. For all I know, you're knowlege in metal can be nothing more than Wikipedia. I'm not saying it's from Wikipedia, though, so please don't try to twist my words, again. Thanks.

The only time I've used Wikipedia to illustrate a point was their article on emo, and even then I have people on this site who can attest that I was saying the same thing way before I knew that article existed.

You think that because you've grown to know something, or studied it a bit, that you know all about it. You do not, and you continually prove that every time you post. I post factual backup, you post "Yeah but I've loved it for ages.". That's simply not how it works.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Folk Metal? Oh, you missed one, did you? That's a shame, and it's not a genre you can "wish away" like Grindcore and Metalcore. It's actually quite defined. Folk Metal is the metal version of Folk Rock. It uses the elements of Heavy Metal, with folklore lyrics and traditional insturments of the subject. A few examples of this genre are Wuthering Heights, Touko, and Skiltron. Oh, and I forgot to mention Doom Metal in my list. Another very defined genre, that I should assume you're going to denounce. But, I'll save myself the trouble of having to describe it.

Folk is a genre, people call it folk rock, which I can deal with. Folk metal? That's bullshit and there is nobody credible that would say any different. Acoustic guitar is a traditional instrument of folk, does that mean Opeth are folk metal? Stop talking out of your anus, you fool.

Doom metal is used to describe bands such as Sunn0))), Khanate, Boris et al, sometimes stoner metal. These are also pointless genre labels made up by judging the bands on their FANS; "Because stoners like them, they must be stoner metal.". Bs, Down are not stoner metal, just because stoners like them. They're a heavy metal band, that's it.

-AC

Alpha Centauri

Silverstein, I never said anything about the music of "grindcore" or "metalcore", I simply said I don't recognise the labels. They're false.

Try reading my posts please.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Now, this isn't my domain, but here's my impression.

Radiohead is probably Avant-Garde Alternative Rock (AC, I swear to God, if you try to bash me for using Avant-Garde as a label... seriosuly, I know what I'm doing)
RATM is probably a blend of Rap(core?), Funk-oriented Metal, and Hard Rock.
The Smiths, I'd say are Alternative Pop Rock.
That's at least my impression of their styles.

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Rapcore, Rage Against the Machine, rapcore. Never heard a funnier, more credibility-erasing comment in my life. You seriously just started adding words onto the ends of genres, you even put a question mark next to "'core", see? You don't even know why you're using it.

You just set a new standard there. What a pretentious, wannabe know-nothing you are. "I know what I'm doing", actually the funniest thing I've read today.

-AC

KingDubya

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Rapcore, Rage Against the Machine, rapcore. Never heard a funnier, more credibility-erasing comment in my life. You seriously just started adding words onto the ends of genres, you even put a question mark next to "'core", see? You don't even know why you're using it.
Wow. You really seem ignorant of the many uses of question marks. He could've meant that he wasn't sure if "core" should be added to the end of rap, which I'm pretty sure he was.

FYI, I posted because I saw how much you've been bashing my friend, and I decided to defend him. Don't drag me into this argument, for even though I love music, I don't know jack about its genres.

Bardiel13

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
No, you did that yourself.
Examples, please.

F*ck, one second. My hypocrite alert just went crazy, I have to turn off the alarm...ok I'm back, what were you saying? Oh, right.

You were trying to say you were joking this whole time, simply because I've taught you a lesson. It happens, don't hate me for it, hate yourself.
That's what I like about you, AC. That razor-sharp wit! Now, just because you're engaged in this debate with fiery passion doesn't mean I am. I can joke about things and the "hail-to-satan" and "Genre Nazi" parts were jokes, thus the " stick out tongue

" next to them.

It doesn't matter what the world is familiar with, because if it did, then My Chemical Romance would be considered emo, and I think even we can agree they are nothing of the sort.

Alternative metal is just saying different metal, it's legitimate. It's not as stupid as grindcore/deathcore/gothcore/post-punk/post-hardcore and shit like that.

So... you claim, that you're not all-knowing, yet you still fight with every tooth and nail that you're right. Yes, the world is against you, but as long as you think so, it's the truth.

The only time I've used Wikipedia to illustrate a point was their article on emo, and even then I have people on this site who can attest that I was saying the same thing way before I knew that article existed.

You think that because you've grown to know something, or studied it a bit, that you know all about it. You do not, and you continually prove that every time you post. I post factual backup, you post "Yeah but I've loved it for ages.". That's simply not how it works.

I didn't simply "love it for ages." You don't know what I do, okay? I'll admit, I've done some reading, but most of my knowledge is from immersion. And that, in many scenarios, tends to be the best teacher. You can read all you want, but you'll never really know unless you listen (not saying that you haven't, of course)

Folk is a genre, people call it folk rock, which I can deal with. Folk metal? That's bullshit and there is nobody credible that would say any different. Acoustic guitar is a traditional instrument of folk, does that mean Opeth are folk metal? Stop talking out of your anus, you fool.

Okay, I'm going assume you've never, ever, ever listened to Folk Metal. Because, if you have, you wouldn't be saying that.

Doom metal is used to describe bands such as Sunn0))), Khanate, Boris et al, sometimes stoner metal. These are also pointless genre labels made up by judging the bands on their FANS; "Because stoners like them, they must be stoner metal.". Bs, Down are not stoner metal, just because stoners like them. They're a heavy metal band, that's it.

Stoner is really just an alternative label of Doom. The build is the same, but the style is a bit more psychedelic, like the music stoners listened to in the 60's. But, yeah Doom=Stoner=Doom.

-AC

Alpha Centauri

Bardiel, sort that quote out so I can reply to it. You've messed it up.

Originally posted by KingDubya
Wow. You really seem ignorant of the many uses of question marks. He could've meant that he wasn't sure if "core" should be added to the end of rap, which I'm pretty sure he was.

You seem to be pretty ignorant to my point.

Originally posted by KingDubya
FYI, I posted because I saw how much you've been bashing my friend, and I decided to defend him. Don't drag me into this argument, for even though I love music, I don't know jack about its genres.

Then leave the thread. Peace.

-AC

Silverstein

Fans refer to Horse The Band as Nintendocore. Just like fans refer to 'Sunn0' as 'Doom Metal'

so basically we are debating about your opinion. Your opinion that you do not recognize certain genres and labels. THAT being an opinion, means there's no fact behind your argument, you lose. Grindcore and Metalcore are recognized. so YOU betta Recognize YO WORD OF MOUFFFF lol

...I'll tell you one thing, i didnt make up any genres and labels alright.

Bardock42

What would you others label them as then?

Silverstein

Originally posted by Bardock42
What would you others label them as then?

who is that directed to?

KingDubya

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You seem to be pretty ignorant to my point.
Your point was saying that Bardiel is a dumbass who knows nothing, correct? I doubt I'm as ignorant as you think.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Then leave the thread. Peace.

-AC
Now, what if I feel like prolonging my presence, therefore resulting in your annoyance? Would you have a problem with that?

Bardock42

Originally posted by Silverstein
who is that directed to?

I guess you others...

Alpha Centauri

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Examples, please.

Of what, you making yourself look stupid? See: Any post you've made thus far.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
That's what I like about you, AC. That razor-sharp wit! Now, just because you're engaged in this debate with fiery passion doesn't mean I am. I can joke about things and the "hail-to-satan" and "Genre Nazi" parts were jokes, thus the " " next to them.

We both know that they weren't jokes, though, don't we? We both know, and can see as much from your comment, that you said something very explicitly and then changed your tune.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
So... you claim, that you're not all-knowing, yet you still fight with every tooth and nail that you're right. Yes, the world is against you, but as long as you think so, it's the truth.

I am right on this particular subject. How does that equate to me thinking I know everything? I know what I need to know to be right in this debate.

It doesn't matter if the world is against me (it isn't, by the way), the opposite, infact. If a million Britney Spears fans argued against you, just you, that she was a better guitarist than Jimi Hendrix, would they be right? No, because they're actually wrong. Why? Because of fact.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
I didn't simply "love it for ages." You don't know what I do, okay? I'll admit, I've done some reading, but most of my knowledge is from immersion. And that, in many scenarios, tends to be the best teacher. You can read all you want, but you'll never really know unless you listen (not saying that you haven't, of course)

Immersion a.k.a loving something a lot, and getting really into it. Yes, that's what I said.

I've done both to massive extremes, which is why I'm making you look stupid in this thread, which is why you are the one who has no other debate besides "I've immersed myself in it." and "The world is against you.".

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Okay, I'm going assume you've never, ever, ever listened to Folk Metal. Because, if you have, you wouldn't be saying that.

Another MySpace teen comment. "If you'd known, you'd not say that", well guess what? I do, and I am.

Puts your little theory out the window.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Stoner is really just an alternative label of Doom. The build is the same, but the style is a bit more psychedelic, like the music stoners listened to in the 60's. But, yeah Doom=Stoner=Doom.

Which is basically just really heavy metal that people like to get high to.

Why does it need a new genre because of what people do when they listen to it? I like riding a bike to Audioslave, Audioslave must be Biking Rock.

-AC

Bardiel13

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Silverstein, I never said anything about the music of "grindcore" or "metalcore", I simply said I don't recognise the labels. They're false.

Try reading my posts please.

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Rapcore, Rage Against the Machine, rapcore. Never heard a funnier, more credibility-erasing comment in my life. You seriously just started adding words onto the ends of genres, you even put a question mark next to "'core", see? You don't even know why you're using it.

You just set a new standard there. What a pretentious, wannabe know-nothing you are. "I know what I'm doing", actually the funniest thing I've read today.

-AC

Okay, I want you to read my post again, but this time, use those reading glasses.

Now, this isn't my domain, but here's my impression.

Radiohead is probably Avant-Garde Alternative Rock (AC, I swear to God, if you try to bash me for using Avant-Garde as a label... seriously, I know what I'm doing)
RATM is probably a blend of Rap(core?), Funk-oriented Metal, and Hard Rock.
The Smiths, I'd say are Alternative Pop Rock.
That's at least my impression of their styles.

AC, I wouldn't be talking about credibility, if I were you. From what I see, you're trying to use every little thing against me. I even put a disclaimer to show that I wasn't the most credible source, that it was just my impression from what I've heard. I did that so you wouldn't make an ass of yourself and do this. But you did. That really tells a lot about your character, man.
Oh, and KingDubya's right. Since I wasn't the most experienced in that field, because I wasn't sure if people would consider that Rapcore or not. Tell me, AC... Do you feel threatened by me? Hold on, I'll answer for you: "Of course, I don't you nincompoop! You should feel threatened by me! I'm right and you're wrong! Hawthorne Heights is 100% metal and deep down inside, you know it! You have no credibility whatsoever! At least, I use my wit to give myself the illusion that I know what I'm doing! HAHAHAHAHA YOU'RE SO STUPID, BARDIEL13!"

And if you're to dense to realize it, that's my parody of you. I don't literally expect you to write that, but I wouldn't have been the least surprise if you did.

Alpha Centauri

Originally posted by KingDubya
Your point was saying that Bardiel is a dumbass who knows nothing, correct? I doubt I'm as ignorant as you think.

He doesn't even know when or how to use the attachment "'core", so he's an idiot for proposing it's a legitimate term.

Originally posted by KingDubya
Now, what if I feel like prolonging my presence, therefore resulting in your annoyance? Would you have a problem with that?

Nope, I'd just report you; You'd be warned and banned if you continue. Then that'd be that.

-AC

Alpha Centauri

Originally posted by Silverstein
so basically we are debating about your opinion. Your opinion that you do not recognize certain genres and labels. THAT being an opinion, means there's no fact behind your argument, you lose. Grindcore and Metalcore are recognized. so YOU betta Recognize YO WORD OF MOUFFFF lol

Recognised by who? You and the rest of the people who think "Nintendocore" is a legitimate genre?

You're funny, like the court jester of this thread.

-AC

Alpha Centauri

Originally posted by Bardiel13
AC, I wouldn't be talking about credibility, if I were you. From what I see, you're trying to use every little thing against me. I even put a disclaimer to show that I wasn't the most credible source, that it was just my impression from what I've heard. I did that so you wouldn't make an ass of yourself and do this. But you did. That really tells a lot about your character, man.

I know you're not credible, haha. Tell me something I don't know, like how you believe you know anything.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Oh, and KingDubya's right. Since I wasn't the most experienced in that field, because I wasn't sure if people would consider that Rapcore or not. Tell me, AC... Do you feel threatened by me? Hold on, I'll answer for you: "Of course, I don't you nincompoop! You should feel threatened by me! I'm right and you're wrong! Hawthorne Heights is 100% metal and deep down inside, you know it! You have no credibility whatsoever! At least, I use my wit to give myself the illusion that I know what I'm doing! HAHAHAHAHA YOU'RE SO STUPID, BARDIEL13!"

A self-hating parody, very telling. Even when you attempt to diss me you end up dissing yourself.

Moving on, there's a simple solution isn't there? If you can't define it, don't use it. It's that simple. Don't speak what you can't spell, heard that saying?

I don't feel threatened by you, Bardiel. You're providing nothing more for me than a post count and humourous reading material. I don't feel threatened by anyone when it comes to music, because I know enough. Unlike you I'm secure in my knowledge, I can back up what I say.

You're the one going around telling yourself that you've immersed yourself in metal, and therefore know what you're talking about. Who are you trying to convince, me or you?

-AC

Silverstein

i dont feel that Hawthorne is metal

Alpha Centauri

Originally posted by Silverstein
i dont feel that Hawthorne is metal

It doesn't matter, they are. I'm not trying to get you to agree, because you won't, but that only means you're holding a flawed opinion.

-AC

Silverstein

how are they metal?

Alpha Centauri

Have you not been reading the past pages? I class you as a silly teen, but I give you a bit more credit than to need spoonfeeding.

Go and read my posts.

-AC

KingDubya

I don't believe that the knowledge of anything other than musical genres applies in this debate, so it wouldn't matter if Bardiel didn't know anything except for musical genres.

Apparently, AC, you seem to come from a society where only a single person's opinion matters and if anyone speaks out against you, you feel the need to defend your opinion, despite how wrong/right it may or may not be.

Silverstein

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Have you not been reading the past pages? I class you as a silly teen, but I give you a bit more credit than to need spoonfeeding.

Go and read my posts.

-AC

i asked you, so you could provide the information on THIS page for the convenience of some people. wink

Alpha Centauri

Originally posted by KingDubya
I don't believe that the knowledge of anything other than musical genres applies in this debate, so it wouldn't matter if Bardiel didn't know anything except for musical genres.

Read that back to yourself and then realise how stupid that sounds. Knowing what the label says matters none if you don't know what you're labelling. He doesn't, as I proved with that "'core" debacle.

Originally posted by KingDubya
Apparently, AC, you seem to come from a society where only a single person's opinion matters and if anyone speaks out against you, you feel the need to defend your opinion, despite how wrong/right it may or may not be.

You seem to come from a society where everything is opinion and facts don't exists. Facts can't be denied, sensibly. To deny a fact is to render your debate useless.

That said, you don't know anything about genres, so either drop something worthwhile or stop disrupting the thread.

-AC

Alpha Centauri

Originally posted by Silverstein
i asked you, so you could provide the information on THIS page for the convenience of some people. wink

For the convenience of who? Nobody else here is perceptive enough to know that they are metal, and seeing as it's just me, you and Bardiel, what do you think that means?

I'm not here to spoonfeed you, either find it or be quiet.

-AC

Bardiel13

Of what, you making yourself look stupid? See: Any post you've made thus far.
Predictable answer. Because, my posts are just oozing with idiocy and yours obviously aren't.

We both know that they weren't jokes, though, don't we? We both know, and can see as much from your comment, that you said something very explicitly and then changed your tune.
Must I repeat myself? I'm not as heated about this as you. I ca make jokes. Hell, when I said "Genre Nazi" we weren't even in this. If you knew me, you'd know I like to make little joking comments on the internet and lampoon my behavior. They were both jokes and I think everyone else watching this thread knows so. If I were totally serious, I wouldn't have put that adorable little smiley next it.

I am right on this particular subject. How does that equate to me thinking I know everything? I know what I need to know to be right in this debate.

It doesn't matter if the world is against me (it isn't, by the way), the opposite, infact. If a million Britney Spears fans argued against you, just you, that she was a better guitarist than Jimi Hendrix, would they be right? No, because they're actually wrong. Why? Because of fact.
Yes, but we could comapre Jimi Hendrix with Britney Spears and that debat would easily be solved. However, all you seem to be is finding every little tidbit in my sentences to try to use them against me and change their meaning, when even an elementary schooler with an internet connection could easily tell when I'm kidding and when I'm not.

Immersion a.k.a loving something a lot, and getting really into it. Yes, that's what I said.

I've done both to massive extremes, which is why I'm making you look stupid in this thread, which is why you are the one who has no other debate besides "I've immersed myself in it." and "The world is against you.".
Immersion is experince. You can love Football a lot, but you wouldn't have to play football. You wouldn't have been fully immersed in that "Football Experience."

Another MySpace teen comment. "If you'd known, you'd not say that", well guess what? I do, and I am. Puts your little theory out the window.
Yeah, but I'm serious. You haven't even listened to Folk Metal, yet you're simply denouncing it like that. And once again the majority will agree with me. But, of course you are the only one who's right! roll eyes (sarcastic)

Which is basically just really heavy metal that people like to get high to. Why does it need a new genre because of what people do when they listen to it? I like riding a bike to Audioslave, Audioslave must be Biking Rock.

I agreed with you on this. You just love arguing, don't you? laughing out loud

-AC

Silverstein

how is hawthorne metal, answer that, or be quiet. They are influenced by Weezer did you know that? is weezer metal? if anything i'd call Hawthorne Emo(core)/Pop Punk...or Pop Rock?

AND

repost: Fans refer to Horse The Band as Nintendocore. Just like fans refer to 'Sunn0' as 'Doom Metal'

Basically the debate between me and you(AC) is about your opinion. Your opinion is that you do not recognize certain genres and labels. THAT being an opinion, means there's no fact behind your argument, you lose. Grindcore and Metalcore are officially recognized. Just because you do not recognize them doesnt mean others do the same is disregard that (sub)genre.

KingDubya

Let me rephrase so as to make sure it copes with your seemingly minute intellect. The knowledge of anything other than musical genres does not necessarily apply in this debate. If Bardiel didn't know anything, it shouldn't matter unless included in that anything is musical genres.

Would you prefer if I did not think for myself, therefore rendering my creative mind useless next to the idiots we have governing the world's many nations? Would you prefer that I not ponder the reason of anything, and just accept what other people have stated as fact? If people did not do as I do, then most likely our technology would've never made it to the point where the two of us could have this conversation, however unfriendly it may be, on a bulletin board website; an example of my statement is that in the past it was stated as fact that no one could ever talk instantaneously to a person over a long distance, but Alexander Graham Bell did not believe that "fact" and eventually invented the telephone.

If you consider my posts so disrupting, then just ignore them, and I may go away.

Alpha Centauri

Bardiel, start quoting your posts.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Predictable answer. Because, my posts are just oozing with idiocy and yours obviously aren't.

Precisely. That's the first correct answer you've given since we've been in this debate.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Must I repeat myself? I'm not as heated about this as you. I ca make jokes. Hell, when I said "Genre Nazi" we weren't even in this. If you knew me, you'd know I like to make little joking comments on the internet and lampoon my behavior. They were both jokes and I think everyone else watching this thread knows so. If I were totally serious, I wouldn't have put that adorable little smiley next it.

You are clearly as into it as I am. Into it meaning that we both post and we both reply, right? Why do you assume I am more into it than you, because I called you an idiot? I called you one because I believe you are.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Yes, but we could comapre Jimi Hendrix with Britney Spears and that debat would easily be solved.

How? By saying and proving that...? Go on, complete the puzzle.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
However, all you seem to be is finding every little tidbit in my sentences to try to use them against me and change their meaning, when even an elementary schooler with an internet connection could easily tell when I'm kidding and when I'm not.

Finally you start to frustratingly weave insults in your posts, a sign of dwindling faith, for sure.

I'm not trying hard to find the inaccuracies and inconsistency in your posts, it's glaring at me everytime you use your keyboard.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Immersion is experince. You can love Football a lot, but you wouldn't have to play football. You wouldn't have been fully immersed in that "Football Experience."

Yes, that's exactly what I said.

So what you are saying or proposing is; You feel you have the right to speak on how genres are specifically labelled despite not knowing about them, but just loving them? That's very, incredible silly of you, boy.

You can love metal all you want, Bardiel, but the fact of the matter is that everytime you post, your words and expressions do not tell a similar tale. You say you know things, but you don't prove it, nor do you show it. I do, I have and I shall continue to. Which is why I'm known on this board for knowing my shit, you don't.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Yeah, but I'm serious. You haven't even listened to Folk Metal, yet you're simply denouncing it like that. And once again the majority will agree with me. But, of course you are the only one who's right! roll eyes (sarcastic)

Now you're really getting desperate, telling me what I have and haven't listened to. Tsk tsk, you disappoint me, I expected better than this.

It doesn't matter if the majority agree with you or not, man. What part about that are you not getting? The majority says that Britney Spears is better than Metallica, is it truer? No, so stop talking from sheer desperation and start making sense. Everything you post exposes you for what you are; A know nothing scenester.

-AC

Alpha Centauri

Originally posted by Silverstein
how is hawthorne metal, answer that, or be quiet. They are influenced by Weezer did you know that? is weezer metal? if anything i'd call Hawthorne Emo(core)/Pop Punk...or Pop Rock?

AND

repost: Fans refer to Horse The Band as Nintendocore. Just like fans refer to 'Sunn0' as 'Doom Metal'

I said it before and I will say it again, you cretin; I explained how they are metal many times, a page or so back, to Bardiel. If you are too lazy than to go and read, then I refuse to spoonfeed you. Moreover, I have deduced that you refuse to accept it, so I won't continue to waste time on you. I'll allow you to hold your incorrect opinion.

Furthermore, what do Weezer have to do with this? They're a rock band; They call themselves such and are known as a rock band. Influencing a band doesn't mean that band will sound like you. Go look up the definition.

Originally posted by Silverstein
Basically the debate between me and you(AC) is about your opinion. Your opinion is that you do not recognize certain genres and labels. THAT being an opinion, means there's no fact behind your argument, you lose. Grindcore and Metalcore are officially recognized. Just because you do not recognize them doesnt mean others do the same is disregard that (sub)genre.

No, you keep getting it wrong. I don't recognise the LABELS, not the genres, the LABELS. I acknowledge that the genre you call "metalcore" exists, I just don't acknowledge the term "metalcore". Is that clear enough, or would crayon be more appropriate?

-AC

Alpha Centauri

Originally posted by KingDubya
Let me rephrase so as to make sure it copes with your seemingly minute intellect. The knowledge of anything other than musical genres does not necessarily apply in this debate. If Bardiel didn't know anything, it shouldn't matter unless included in that anything is musical genres.

It does, because to know about music genres is to know labels, and to credibly know how to apply them you must also know the music you are applying them to.

He doesn't, hence why he said Rage Against the Machine are part rapcore, because he's an idiot.

Originally posted by KingDubya
Would you prefer if I did not think for myself, therefore rendering my creative mind useless next to the idiots we have governing the world's many nations? Would you prefer that I not ponder the reason of anything, and just accept what other people have stated as fact? If people did not do as I do, then most likely our technology would've never made it to the point where the two of us could have this conversation, however unfriendly it may be, on a bulletin board website; an example of my statement is that in the past it was stated as fact that no one could ever talk instantaneously to a person over a long distance, but Alexander Graham Bell did not believe that "fact" and eventually invented the telephone.

Let me explain something to you, then. Facts cannot be disagreed with, ok? The fact that Alex Bell disproved something means that whatever he disproved, wasn't actually a fact. We know this because it was able to be disproved, see?

You cannot disprove that staying underwater without breathing apparatus means you will drown, it's a fact.

So on that note:

Originally posted by KingDubya
If you consider my posts so disrupting, then just ignore them, and I may go away.

Either post something regarding the topic, as Bardiel and Silverstein are doing, or I will report you. It's your choice, pal. Get warned and have to stop, or stop without a warning.

-AC

Silverstein

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
No, you keep getting it wrong. I don't recognise the LABELS, not the genres, the LABELS. I acknowledge that the genre you call "metalcore" exists, I just don't acknowledge the term "metalcore". Is that clear enough, or would crayon be more appropriate?

-AC

then simply replace the word genre with LABEL. and what is so wrong with _______core, it would be the same as saying _____metal, death metal, etc. you not acknowledging metalcore is your own opinion, i should just stop now shouldnt i roll eyes (sarcastic)

what would you call this Metalcore, and Grindcore. Metal-hardcore? lol

please oh please in crayon. How about some construnction paper while you're at it. Who knows, you could draw it out, when we go hxc dancing in your mother's basement. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Alpha Centauri

Originally posted by Silverstein
then simply replace the word genre with LABEL. and what is so wrong with _______core, it would be the same as saying _____metal, death metal, etc. you not acknowledging metalcore is your own opinion, i should just stop now shouldnt i roll eyes (sarcastic)

what would you call this Metalcore, and Grindcore. Metal-hardcore? lol

No, this is where you confuse yourself. The variations of metal such as black metal and death metal have factual difference, technical differences in the way the instruments are played. It's a fact, there are specific parts dividing them, as I have proven.

If you listen to a "metalcore" band, the only thing people have to describe it is a sound. People say "It sounds kind of harder", or what not. It's just harder metal, there's no factual, technical difference to any other kind of metal. The instruments are not played differently in "metalcore" than they are in basic metal bands. That's where you get it wrong, that's where it becomes fact and not opinion.

-AC

KingDubya

And there are probably many who also think that Rage Against the Machine is rapcore. I am among them, so I guess you consider me an idiot as well.

Yes, that is a solid fact, and Bell did disprove what was thought to be a solid fact. There are certain facts that cannot be proven wrong, but there are still plenty that are sure to be thrown out in due time, such as your "fact" that Hawthorne Heights is metal, which I have yet to research and post my opinion on the matter.

I will post something relevant in my next post. First I must find samples of Hawthorne Heights' music so I can listen to it. Then, I will post my opinion and how it is based, if it will make you happy.

Alpha Centauri

Originally posted by KingDubya
And there are probably many who also think that Rage Against the Machine is rapcore. I am among them, so I guess you consider me an idiot as well.

You catch on fast.

Originally posted by KingDubya
Yes, that is a solid fact, and Bell did disprove what was thought to be a solid fact. There are certain facts that cannot be proven wrong, but there are still plenty that are sure to be thrown out in due time, such as your "fact" that Hawthorne Heights is metal, which I have yet to research and post my opinion on the matter.

No, you don't get it, you idiot. THINKING something is a fact, and it actually being one, are two different things. People thought it was a fact that the Earth was flat, but they were wrong, weren't they? They were always wrong. They THOUGHT it was a fact, it wasn't actually a fact.

You can research all you want, we all know that you'll come back and side with your friends like the sheep you are, because you don't know anything about genres and how to differentiate between them.

Originally posted by KingDubya
I will post something relevant in my next post. First I must find samples of Hawthorne Heights' music so I can listen to it. Then, I will post my opinion and how it is based, if it will make you happy.

Lovely stuff. I look forward to reading how much you agree with your friends, however I will use the fact against you that previously was brought to light; You saying you don't know anything about this. So don't be offended if I laugh at you.

"Don't drag me into this argument, for even though I love music, I don't know jack about its genres.".

-AC

Silverstein

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
No, this is where you confuse yourself. The variations of metal such as black metal and death metal have factual difference, technical differences in the way the instruments are played. It's a fact, there are specific parts dividing them, as I have proven.

If you listen to a "metalcore" band, the only thing people have to describe it is a sound. People say "It sounds kind of harder", or what not. It's just harder metal, there's no factual, technical difference to any other kind of metal. The instruments are not played differently in "metalcore" than they are in basic metal bands. That's where you get it wrong, that's where it becomes fact and not opinion.

-AC

Metalcore is not harder metal, Metal tends to be more artistic somewhat (classic oldies metal), i think it is influenced by metal, but it IS NOT metal.

metalcore has technical differences like: Hardcore elements such as, Breakdowns, and other elements like Throat and Scream Vocals, Slow Heavy Riffs, & Guitars Tuned very low.

Alpha Centauri

Originally posted by Silverstein
metalcore has technical differences like: Hardcore elements such as, Breakdowns, and other elements like Throat and Scream Vocals, Slow Heavy Riffs, & Guitars Tuned very low.

Finally you prove my point; You have no idea what you are saying.

Everything you named can be found in most genres of ordinary metal. Breakdowns are what make "metalcore" different to metal? Hahahahaha. Possibly funnier than Bardiel's Rage/Rapcore comment. Do you know what a breakdown is? Metallica were doing that, Slayer were doing that, many metal bands were using breakdowns long before most of these "metalcore" bands even existed, or were even born. A breakdown is simply when all instruments stop or are faded out, bar one, or all the instruments cut out and only the vocalist acts. Bands have been doing that for almost as long as there has been music.

Why do you think it's called "metalcore"? Because it's metal, just slightly different, so the kids add "'core".

Thanks for proving my point.

-AC

KingDubya

I do have a tendency to do that. smile

Just like there are many things that we today consider fact, that could probably be disproved in the next few years.

First of all, I don't much like it when my personality is compared to that of a sheep, which I'm guessing you are using to say I am meek. Yes, I can be shy and slow to act at times, but I am not afraid to disagree with my friends, nor agree with my opponents. And even though I did say that "I don't know jack about (music's) genres", I believe that even I have the right to voice my opinion of what a certain band's music can be classified as.

Yes, I did say that I know little to nothing about the classifications of music, but that does not mean that I can't voice my opinion, does it? And I won't be offended in the least if you laugh at me.

Now, to contribute to the main debate at hand:
In my personal opinion, after listening to various samples of Hawthorne Heights' music through http://www.mp3.com, I have to say that their music seems to be something inbetween what the two of you are saying. The style that the vocalists sing the lyrics in is similar to that of many bands that are considered emo. Yet, the instrumental breaks are in a similar style to metal, and they have the rasping screams that litter many metal songs. So, I guess I agree with both of you, in one way or another.

Alpha Centauri

Originally posted by KingDubya
Just like there are many things that we today consider fact, that could probably be disproved in the next few years.

No, you don't get it do you? If someone rips your heart out, you die. That's a fact, right? It's a fact because it cannot be disputed. That's what a fact is, you see. Anything else is simply not a fact.

If there are beliefs held as fact today that are later disproven, then they were never facts anyway, e.g: "I believe the Earth is flat!". They believed it was a fact, but the Earth has never, ever been flat. So they were wrong to believe it as a fact. Facts can never be disproven.

Originally posted by KingDubya
First of all, I don't much like it when my personality is compared to that of a sheep, which I'm guessing you are using to say I am meek.

I don't particularly like a lot of things, but shit happens.

Originally posted by KingDubya
Yes, I can be shy and slow to act at times, but I am not afraid to disagree with my friends, nor agree with my opponents. And even though I did say that "I don't know jack about (music's) genres", I believe that even I have the right to voice my opinion of what a certain band's music can be classified as.

You do, just don't expect it to be taken seriously at all by anyone with sense. You said yourself that you have no clue.

Originally posted by KingDubya
Yes, I did say that I know little to nothing about the classifications of music, but that does not mean that I can't voice my opinion, does it? And I won't be offended in the least if you laugh at me.

Good, because judging by your little fact logic, I'm in for a good laugh.

Originally posted by KingDubya
Now, to contribute to the main debate at hand:
In my personal opinion, after listening to various samples of Hawthorne Heights' music through http://www.mp3.com, I have to say that their music seems to be something inbetween what the two of you are saying. The style that the vocalists sing the lyrics in is similar to that of many bands that are considered emo. Yet, the instrumental breaks are in a similar style to metal, and they have the rasping screams that litter many metal songs. So, I guess I agree with both of you, in one way or another.

You didn't go with the herd, you just sat on the fence. I'm semi-impressed (not really).

They are CONSIDERED emo, but they are factually not emo. Not by what emo actually is, as dictated by musical research and history. Factually, they are also a metal band, as proven by research and insight.

-AC

Silverstein

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Finally you prove my point; You have no idea what you are saying.

Everything you named can be found in most genres of ordinary metal. Breakdowns are what make "metalcore" different to metal? Hahahahaha. Possibly funnier than Bardiel's Rage/Rapcore comment. Do you know what a breakdown is? Metallica were doing that, Slayer were doing that, many metal bands were using breakdowns long before most of these "metalcore" bands even existed, or were even born. A breakdown is simply when all instruments stop or are faded out, bar one, or all the instruments cut out and only the vocalist acts. Bands have been doing that for almost as long as there has been music.

Why do you think it's called "metalcore"? Because it's metal, just slightly different, so the kids add "'core".

Thanks for proving my point.

-AC

A fusion of death/thrash Metal and Hardcore

I think there is a difference between Classic Metal and Metalcore. Kids or MUSICIANS and LISTENERS made it into Metalcore because it was a fusion of metal annnnndddd hardcore. 2 genres into a hybrid, that hybrid genre needs a label since it is different to some people, if it was the same there would be no need for a new label/name, METALCORE. Unless what? Hardcore is also apparently Metal??? and then Metal is actually another genre???everything came from one thing blah blah big bang, im not gonna go 100 yrs into the past to discuss Metalcore laughing

Alpha Centauri

Originally posted by Silverstein
A fusion of death/thrash Metal and Hardcore

I think there is a difference between Classic Metal and Metalcore. Kids or MUSICIANS and LISTENERS made it into Metalcore because it was a fusion of metal annnnndddd hardcore. 2 genres into a hybrid, that hybrid genre needs a label since it is different to some people, if it was the same there would be no need for a new label/name, METALCORE. Unless what? Hardcore is also apparently Metal??? and then Metal is actually another genre???everything came from one thing blah blah big bang, im not gonna go 100 yrs into the past to discuss Metalcore laughing

It doesn't need a label, that's the problem. You think it needs one, it doesn't, you WANT to give it one. You don't need it to be called "metalcore" so you can listen to it and enjoy it do you?

The fact of the matter is, you f*cked your whole debate up with your last post. You tried foolishly to list distinctions in "metalcore" and failed, now you're jabbering on about nothing, at least you tried.

"Breakdowns are what make it different.". Haha, nice one.

-AC

jaden101

hey AC. why, as someone who doesn't really like the use of genres to pigeon-hole bands and there music, are you always at the centre of every debate when genres are brought up

if people wrongly or idiotically want to start making up bizarre mixes of genres...just let them...because when it comes down to it, it doesn't change the music they try to catagorise anyway

Silverstein

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It doesn't need a label, that's the problem. You think it needs one, it doesn't, you WANT to give it one. You don't need it to be called "metalcore" so you can listen to it and enjoy it do you?

The fact of the matter is, you f*cked your whole debate up with your last post. You tried foolishly to list distinctions in "metalcore" and failed, now you're jabbering on about nothing, at least you tried.

"Breakdowns are what make it different.". Haha, nice one.

-AC

I think it needs one, I want to give it one. and YOU think it doesn't need one, YOU do not want to give it one. I freakin need the name metalcore to enjoy it. If i wanted to listen to Metal i'd listen to 'Atreyu' if i wanted to listen to Metalcore i'd listen to 'Murders of rue Morgue'

i listed distinctions, the breakdowns are different line is just a line, i listed many distinctions. Go listen to metallica, then come and listen to 'Murders of rue Morgue' search that on purevolume. There is a difference. I guess metalcore cannot be explained. only experienced.

Alpha Centauri

Originally posted by Silverstein
I think it needs one, I want to give it one. and YOU think it doesn't need one, YOU do not want to give it one. I freakin need the name metalcore to enjoy it. If i wanted to listen to Metal i'd listen to 'Atreyu' if i wanted to listen to Metalcore i'd listen to 'Murders of rue Morgue'

It doesn't need one, that's a fact. So we come down to what I said; You want to give it one, because you're a labeller, as I said and as you denied. Point proven. Blundering, desperate scenechild.

Originally posted by Silverstein
i listed distinctions, the breakdowns are different line is just a line, i listed many distinctions. Go listen to metallica, then come and listen to 'Murders of rue Morgue' search that on purevolume. There is a difference. I guess metalcore cannot be explained. only experienced.

Stop trying to get out of it. You said that breakdowns make the difference, because you don't know what they are, or you'd not have said it. Throaty screams? Black metal had that long before "metalcore". So were Will Haven, Converge and others. Downtuned guitars? Crowbar were doing that before "metalcore", so were many others, and those aren't "metalcore" bands. They're just metal bands. You don't know what you're talking about, and I've proven it, exposed it too.

There are no factual definitions between metal and "metalcore". Why? Because "metalcore" is a label that shouldn't exist, it doesn't apply to a genre, it's just a tag that kids stick onto metal bands that don't sound like what they think metal is.

I.E: You. As I have also proven.

-AC

Silverstein

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It doesn't need one, that's a fact. So we come down to what I said; You want to give it one, because you're a labeller, as I said and as you denied. Point proven. Blundering, desperate scenechild.

Stop trying to get out of it. You said that breakdowns make the difference, because you don't know what they are, or you'd not have said it. Throaty screams? Black metal had that long before "metalcore". So were Will Haven, Converge and others. Downtuned guitars? Crowbar were doing that before "metalcore", so were many others, and those aren't "metalcore" bands. They're just metal bands. You don't know what you're talking about, and I've proven it, exposed it too.

There are no factual definitions between metal and "metalcore". Why? Because "metalcore" is a label that shouldn't exist, it doesn't apply to a genre, it's just a tag that kids stick onto metal bands that don't sound like what they think metal is.

I.E: You. As I have also proven.

-AC

it needs one, its just the start of a neeewwww revolution, where metal is allll leeefftt behind, and your afraid so, you try and label these new metalcore bands with metal labels, YOU LABEL TOO, you are labelling Metalcore as Metal. How ironic. It's hard to not label. I have a name, you have a name, im sure you're probably one of the 'nerds' in the debate team or something.

by the way, its not scenechild; scene KID, but im not one. i don't go to many shows.

Alpha Centauri

Originally posted by Silverstein
it needs one, its just the start of a neeewwww revolution, where metal is allll leeefftt behind, and your afraid so, you try and label these new metalcore bands with metal labels, YOU LABEL TOO, you are labelling Metalcore as Metal. How ironic. It's hard to not label. I have a name, you have a name, im sure you're probably one of the 'nerds' in the debate team or something.

by the way, its not scenechild; scene KID, but im not one. i don't go to many shows.

Afraid of what? None of the bands you label as "metalcore" are doing anything that other bands haven't done, and done better. I call them metal because they are, and I prove why. You said: "I want to label them as metalcore", then when you give your reasons, we find out that you know nothing.

-AC

Silverstein

1)you're afraid of the new metalcore revolution lol

2) just go listen to metalcore, you'll HEAR the difference.

3) you said you do not recognize them as a label = your opinion. Your Opinion has no facts. I Win, You Lose. The End, get over it.

Alpha Centauri

Originally posted by Silverstein
1)you're afraid of the new metalcore revolution lol

2) just go listen to metalcore, you'll HEAR the difference.

3) you said you do not recognize them as a label = your opinion. Your Opinion has no facts. I Win, You Lose. The End, get over it.

I hear they have these breakdown things (Haha, that was a joke, you see.). I've proven that the label is unnecessary, so you're fighting a brick wall of fact. It's just something you want to use, to make yourself feel like a fan. It's what scene kids do I guess. I'll leave you to recede into your shell.

Two down, I'll deal with Bardiel whenever he shows up.

-AC

Tptmanno1

Can I toss something out there?
Do we really NEED labels for ANY type of music? What is the purpose of lableing things becides giving people a reason for people to attempt to argue with AC, and I know from experience that it never turns out well...

Silverstein

AC:

yeah, damn, i guess i lose. oh well. whistle

Perhaps, metalcore is like slang. Like the words, Skeet, Chicken Head, Dawg? they have a different name but mean the same thing.

or are you going to debate that too?

Bardiel13

Bardiel, start quoting your posts.
Make me rolling on floor laughing

Precisely. That's the first correct answer you've given since we've been in this debate.
My answer: laughing out loud

You are clearly as into it as I am. Into it meaning that we both post and we both reply, right? Why do you assume I am more into it than you, because I called you an idiot? I called you one because I believe you are.
Heh... thinking an idiot of someone because they think Hawthorne Heights is hardcore instead of metal is kind of... idiotic.

How? By saying and proving that...? Go on, complete the puzzle.
As you wish, although I thought you were smart enough to finish the puzzle yourself. If one plays Jimi Hendrix's guitar skills to Britney Spears' it would be quite easy to figue out who what superior. If you want me to answer that for you, HENDRIX.

Finally you start to frustratingly weave insults in your posts, a sign of dwindling faith, for sure.
Making asinine claims to further the argument. Also a sign of dwindling faith.

I'm not trying hard to find the inaccuracies and inconsistency in your posts, it's glaring at me everytime you use your keyboard.
You know what else was glaring at you? My disclaimer on how RATM's genre was my impression and opinion. And what did you do? That's right, you jump all over me for it, still...

So what you are saying or proposing is; You feel you have the right to speak on how genres are specifically labelled despite not knowing about them, but just loving them? That's very, incredible silly of you, boy.
Bite me, you know what I said. You simply said that immersion is just loving something. But it's also experience.

You can love metal all you want, Bardiel, but the fact of the matter is that everytime you post, your words and expressions do not tell a similar tale. You say you know things, but you don't prove it, nor do you show it. I do, I have and I shall continue to. Which is why I'm known on this board for knowing my shit, you don't.
See above.

Now you're really getting desperate, telling me what I have and haven't listened to. Tsk tsk, you disappoint me, I expected better than this.
It doesn't matter if the majority agree with you or not, man. What part about that are you not getting? The majority says that Britney Spears is better than Metallica, is it truer? No, so stop talking from sheer desperation and start making sense. Everything you post exposes you for what you are; A know nothing scenester.
What's this, now? Of course I can't prove that Britney Spears is better than Metallica! Neither can you! You know why? It's simply about opinion and taste. And everything you post also exposes you for what you are; a poor debator. You sidestep your way past having to back yourself up by trying to pound away at one's ego with off topic teasing. It seems like either you know you're wrong or you're so drunk off your own ego that admitting defeat is not an option.

And now, I'm through with you dodging. I'm going to get to the point.
Hawthorne Heights is not metal because:
1) Simply not heavy enough. Semi-heavy, maybe, but not metal-requirement. Most metal bands tend to tune down their guitars to a heavier pitch and use different distortion than what they use. The distortion used by Hawthorn Heights is frequently used by *gasp* hardcore bands! eek!

2) Find a 1-2 minute part in a Hawthorne Heights song with no vocals, just insturmental. Then pick a band from the same genre you think Hawthorne Heights are (please tell me, all this time you've faild to mention that). Compare.
3) This may not be valid to you, I know, but it's just saying... Hawthorne Heights are not affiliated with metal. They have never performed at a metal festival (maybe hardcore & metal festival, but you'll never see these guys at WOA)

And now, why you're making a fool of yourself. You see, I'm not a vague as you. smile

1) You honestly assumed I thought Slayer and Amon Amarth sounded alike.
2) You resorted to petty name-calling early on in the debate, which portrays a poor image of your personality.
3) After my disclaimers on Bardocks request, you still bashed me, trying to get a cheap shot. Low.

Alpha Centauri

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Heh... thinking an idiot of someone because they think Hawthorne Heights is hardcore instead of metal is kind of... idiotic.

It's not even that, it's the general nature of your posts.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
As you wish, although I thought you were smart enough to finish the puzzle yourself. If one plays Jimi Hendrix's guitar skills to Britney Spears' it would be quite easy to figue out who what superior. If you want me to answer that for you, HENDRIX.

I know the answer, I wanted you to answer it to prove my point, but you still got it wrong.

We can prove it by proving the factually better guitar technician. Just as we can prove who is factually metal and who isn't, based on what they play and how.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Making asinine claims to further the argument. Also a sign of dwindling faith.

You threw the contradictory insult, not me. I could go on about music all day.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
You know what else was glaring at you? My disclaimer on how RATM's genre was my impression and opinion. And what did you do? That's right, you jump all over me for it, still...

The very fact that you even considered them anything close to "rapcore", or considered rapcore an actual genre was enough. Add to this, the fact that you didn't even know what "'core" meant, or should be attached to.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Bite me, you know what I said. You simply said that immersion is just loving something. But it's also experience.

Experience in what? Loving something enough to be exposed to it. That's what I keep saying. You have "experience" in metal because you allegedly listen to it a lot due to loving it. Why try to twist it around?

Originally posted by Bardiel13
See above.

Where's the relevance? Same applies.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
What's this, now? Of course I can't prove that Britney Spears is better than Metallica! Neither can you! You know why? It's simply about opinion and taste. And everything you post also exposes you for what you are; a poor debator. You sidestep your way past having to back yourself up by trying to pound away at one's ego with off topic teasing. It seems like either you know you're wrong or you're so drunk off your own ego that admitting defeat is not an option.

Precisely, that's exactly the answer I wanted. So therefore, it doesn't ever matter how many people are against you, majority or not, does it? No.

That said, someone who likes certain kinds of music will always have a more credible opinion (still an opinion) than those who like Britney Spears.

I'd admit defeat if it ever happened, but look at your posts. When was the last time you posted something on topic? Something to counter my arguments? You can't.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
And now, I'm through with you dodging. I'm going to get to the point.
Hawthorne Heights is not metal because:

1) Simply not heavy enough. Semi-heavy, maybe, but not metal-requirement. Most metal bands tend to tune down their guitars to a heavier pitch and use different distortion than what they use. The distortion used by Hawthorn Heights is frequently used by *gasp* hardcore bands! eek!

There is no heavy requirement to be metal, you fool. Metallica's later albums are metal albums, but they're nowhere near as heavy as Master of Puppets or ...And Justice for All, so what makes you think that it can't be metal if it's not ridiculously heavy? Oh yes, the fact that you don't have a clue what you're on about.

There is no specific distortion used that makes a different genre, that's just sheer desperation.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
2) Find a 1-2 minute part in a Hawthorne Heights song with no vocals, just insturmental. Then pick a band from the same genre you think Hawthorne Heights are (please tell me, all this time you've faild to mention that). Compare.

What are you getting at? They're not metal because they don't have a lot of moments where they are instrumental without vocals? Possibly the silliest argument I've heard. Converge are a metal band, hardly any instrumentals there, Norma Jean likewise. You are struggling so hard to define this made-up genre that you're saying things that make you look worse.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
3) This may not be valid to you, I know, but it's just saying... Hawthorne Heights are not affiliated with metal. They have never performed at a metal festival (maybe hardcore & metal festival, but you'll never see these guys at WOA)

That is the worst paragraph you have posted yet. First of all you make the factually incorrect claim of: "They have never performed at a metal festival...", then upon realising the stupidity of your claim, change it to: "(Maybe a hardcore & metal festival, but you'll never see these guys performing at WOA.)". They performed at the Kerrang! (mostly a metal magazine) XXV Anniversary tour with Bullet for My Valentine and Aiden, two metal bands. It was touted as a metal tour and contained metal bands.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
And now, why you're making a fool of yourself. You see, I'm not a vague as you. smile

See above, remember?

Originally posted by Bardiel13
1) You honestly assumed I thought Slayer and Amon Amarth sounded alike.

Because you put it across as such, and are now changing your tune. If you don't think they sound alike, then I was wrong. It wasn't exactly a massive assumption, especially considering you listed traits and then mentioned the two bands together, without failing to specify any difference that you believed to exist. Now who's vague? You.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
2) You resorted to petty name-calling early on in the debate, which portrays a poor image of your personality.

It doesn't portray anything other than my opinion of you vis-a-vis this debate.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
3) After my disclaimers on Bardocks request, you still bashed me, trying to get a cheap shot. Low.

I didn't bash you, I made a single comment about you regarding your music knowledge or lack thereof.

-AC

Bardiel13

It's not even that, it's the general nature of your posts.
Then, tell me in detail the nature of my posts. I don't see me denouncing every genre I've never head of.

I know the answer, I wanted you to answer it to prove my point, but you still got it wrong.
We can prove it by proving the factually better guitar technician. Just as we can prove who is factually metal and who isn't, based on what they play and how.
That's what I said. If you compare the two, it's quite easy to see who's better. Now, how is talent relevant with genre styles?

You threw the contradictory insult, not me. I could go on about music all day.
A contradicory insult, you say? Where is it?

The very fact that you even considered them anything close to "rapcore", or considered rapcore an actual genre was enough. Add to this, the fact that you didn't even know what "'core" meant, or should be attached to.
Once again, you go by "If I haven't heard of it, it doesn't exist!" Do you honestly think you know EVERY genre of music? That it's possible that there are legit, defined genres that you don't know about?

Experience in what? Loving something enough to be exposed to it. That's what I keep saying. You have "experience" in metal because you allegedly listen to it a lot due to loving it. Why try to twist it around?
And that's what I keep saying- leave it at that.

Precisely, that's exactly the answer I wanted. So therefore, it doesn't ever matter how many people are against you, majority or not, does it? No.
That said, someone who likes certain kinds of music will always have a more credible opinion (still an opinion) than those who like Britney Spears.
You're trying to prove that majority doesn't mean it's right? Well, why are you using an example where majority wouldn't matter to begin with?

I'd admit defeat if it ever happened, but look at your posts. When was the last time you posted something on topic? Something to counter my arguments? You can't.
I just did post something on topic laughing out loud

And the reason why it's getting hard to post on topic, is beacuse you're hell-bent on keeping me busy by having to respond to your empty criticisms. If you want to post of topic, then please stop this and let's make it civil. Instead of shouting "YOU'RE WRONG WRONG WROOONNGG!!" make some POINTS on the topic instead of claiming I know nothing.

There is no heavy requirement to be metal, you fool. Metallica's later albums are metal albums, but they're nowhere near as heavy as Master of Puppets or ...And Justice for All, so what makes you think that it can't be metal if it's not ridiculously heavy? Oh yes, the fact that you don't have a clue what you're on about.
Let's not get into this, because then we'd have an argument if later Metallica is really Hard Rock or Metal. Save it for another day.

There is no specific distortion used that makes a different genre, that's just sheer desperation.
You're not one to talk about desperation, He-Who-Does-Nothing-But-Criticise. And, it's not a SPECIFIC distortion, that'd be kind of lame. It's a certain STYLE of distortion.

What are you getting at? They're not metal because they don't have a lot of moments where they are instrumental without vocals? Possibly the silliest argument I've heard. Converge are a metal band, hardly any instrumentals there, Norma Jean likewise. You are struggling so hard to define this made-up genre that you're saying things that make you look worse.
Why must you do this? Are you really that dense? I meant for you to compare the music itself, since the vocals are in many cases similar. You shouldn't call me desperate, because you're the one trying to put my sentences in the context you want, when it's not what what I'm saying at all!

That is the worst paragraph you have posted yet. First of all you make the factually incorrect claim of: "They have never performed at a metal festival...", then upon realising the stupidity of your claim, change it to: "(Maybe a hardcore & metal festival, but you'll never see these guys performing at WOA.)". They performed at the Kerrang! (mostly a metal magazine) XXV Anniversary tour with Bullet for My Valentine and Aiden, two metal bands. It was touted as a metal tour and contained metal bands.
Like I said: hardcore and metal bands often tour together. Bullet for my Valentine and Aiden are metalcore. Metalcore bands tour with hardcore bands all the time. It's not just the genre, it's a fanbase.

See above, remember?
What, you can't simply look up to the previous paragraph? I'd say that's a lot less vague than calling me stupid with "All my posts" or answering a question with "read my other (as in dozens) posts."

Because you put it across as such, and are now changing your tune. If you don't think they sound alike, then I was wrong. It wasn't exactly a massive assumption, especially considering you listed traits and then mentioned the two bands together, without failing to specify any difference that you believed to exist. Now who's vague? You.
What trades did I list that made them sound alike? You said that Hawthorne Heights is metal. Slayer and Amon Amarth are metal, yes? Alright, then. If you reread my post (like you've had to do how many times?), you'll notice I make no mention about specific genres.

It doesn't portray anything other than my opinion of you vis-a-vis this debate.
Of course, you won't admit it, but you saying I'm an idiot and getting all fired up because you think I got the genre wrong to a band neither of us even like makes you look preeeetty immature. confused

I didn't bash you, I made a single comment about you regarding your music knowledge or lack thereof.
Even thought I stated TWICE that the bands he requested weren't in my domain (I did this to keep you off my back, but you sure love to get on my nerves), yet you tried to use that post against me, as if I said I knew everything about music and was 100% sure of their genres.

Alpha Centauri

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Then, tell me in detail the nature of my posts. I don't see me denouncing every genre I've never head of.

Neither do I, but you just make them up or adhere to them, then realise you don't even know how to apply them.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
That's what I said. If you compare the two, it's quite easy to see who's better. Now, how is talent relevant with genre styles?

It wasn't exclusively, my point was how when comparing things or looking at genres or musical subjects alone, we can judge by fact if there is a specific criteria. Hawthorne Heights are a metal band, and this has been proven, they were also on an exclusively metal tour.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
A contradicory insult, you say? Where is it?

Do you have the memory span of a goldfish or something? I'm not going to give you more ways to dodge, so I'm going to get to the on-topic parts, later I will PM you said insult.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Once again, you go by "If I haven't heard of it, it doesn't exist!" Do you honestly think you know EVERY genre of music? That it's possible that there are legit, defined genres that you don't know about?

No, I do not. I've heard of "metalcore", I've heard of "grindcore". I recognise that the music those labels are attached to, exists. What part of that do you not grasp? My problem is with the labels, literally. Not the music, the labels, and those who use them.

I'm not saying the music you label as rapcore (it's also called hip hop, not rap) doesn't exist, I'm saying the label is stupid and inapplicable. Like when you applied it to Rage, thus erasing any credibility you had.

Furthermore, didn't know "Nintendocore" had been thought up until Sceneverstein brought it up, and why should I? It's pathetic, it's non-applicable and there is absolutely no reason for it. I knew that kind of music existed, I was unware of the label, and I couldn't care less. I don't need to know that the word "Nintendocore" exists.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
And that's what I keep saying- leave it at that.

So then we come back the my original point: You claim you've studied metal just because you love it, which you denied, only to then agree with.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
You're trying to prove that majority doesn't mean it's right? Well, why are you using an example where majority wouldn't matter to begin with?

Because you are the one sitting there saying that the majority is against me, as if it's somehow reinforcing your claim. A majority of morons doesn't mean a thing.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
And the reason why it's getting hard to post on topic, is beacuse you're hell-bent on keeping me busy by having to respond to your empty criticisms.

Having to? I don't have control over you, you're responsible for yourself, buddy. You can't help but reply, and it just leaves you looking sillier. Don't reply to that which you dislike then, but you know you fill your posts up because when it comes down to it, I'm proving you wrong at every turn.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
If you want to post of topic, then please stop this and let's make it civil. Instead of shouting "YOU'RE WRONG WRONG WROOONNGG!!" make some POINTS on the topic instead of claiming I know nothing.

You don't, though. What do you want, respect? Admiration? You're posting on here with all the inconsistency and illogical argument of a 6 year old.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Let's not get into this, because then we'd have an argument if later Metallica is really Hard Rock or Metal. Save it for another day.

They're not called Hardrockica, are they? They're called Metallica because they are a metal band, world renowned and extremely famous for it. To deny that Metallica are a metal, to even question that, is despicable.

Point proven, I understand why you wouldn't want to get into it.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
You're not one to talk about desperation, He-Who-Does-Nothing-But-Criticise. And, it's not a SPECIFIC distortion, that'd be kind of lame. It's a certain STYLE of distortion.

We're in a debate, criticising is what happens. If you call Rage Against the Machine rapcore, you deserve critique. Deal with it.

It's not a certain style of distortion, you're making things up again. Hawthorne Heights and many others are simply metal bands, that's all they are. You have tried to say it relies on distortion; Bull. You've tried saying that it's not as heavy as a requirement; Bull, as I proved with the Metallica comparison, and you backed out. So what's left for you?

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Why must you do this? Are you really that dense? I meant for you to compare the music itself, since the vocals are in many cases similar. You shouldn't call me desperate, because you're the one trying to put my sentences in the context you want, when it's not what what I'm saying at all!

I know what the music sounds like, Bardiel. Regardless of whether it sounds like other metal bands or not, it's metal music. You aren't showing anything beyond "Yeah, the distortion style is different.". I've gave my evidence, you provide nothing.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Like I said: hardcore and metal bands often tour together. Bullet for my Valentine and Aiden are metalcore. Metalcore bands tour with hardcore bands all the time. It's not just the genre, it's a fanbase.

So you are now claiming you know more about metal than the journalists for a magazine that has been going since you were in pampers? Try it, please.

Bullet for My Valentine and Aiden are metal bands, they call themselves metal bands, they are known by magazines, music press and fans alike as metal bands. It was a metal band tour and Hawthorne Heights were a part of it, also touted as a metal band. Why? Because they are a metal band.

Fanbase? Who cares about a fanbase? I'm talking about the music. The music isn't called "metalcore" because the fans call themselves by that name. That's like calling Down stoner rock because their fans like to get stoned a lot, it's stupid.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
What, you can't simply look up to the previous paragraph? I'd say that's a lot less vague than calling me stupid with "All my posts" or answering a question with "read my other (as in dozens) posts."

I specifically directed you to what I said previously, you are getting desperate, man.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
What trades did I list that made them sound alike? You said that Hawthorne Heights is metal. Slayer and Amon Amarth are metal, yes? Alright, then. If you reread my post (like you've had to do how many times?), you'll notice I make no mention about specific genres.

I said you listed traits and then mentioned the two bands together, "Like Slayer and Amon Amarth.". It was a fair assumption.

I've never actually re-read your posts, because once is enough. You re-directing me doesn't make your claim any more true.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Of course, you won't admit it, but you saying I'm an idiot and getting all fired up because you think I got the genre wrong to a band neither of us even like makes you look preeeetty immature. confused

I'm not getting all fired up, that's just a tactic people use to make it seem like they're getting the best of their opponent, when infact they aren't. Second, what do you mean I won't admit it? I think you're an idiot when it comes to music, because that's all I know of you.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Even thought I stated TWICE that the bands he requested weren't in my domain (I did this to keep you off my back, but you sure love to get on my nerves), yet you tried to use that post against me, as if I said I knew everything about music and was 100% sure of their genres.

It's not my fault you're actually getting nervy and feeling like you have to reply. If you don't have a clue, then don't go around labelling bands, simple solution isn't it?

If you don't know how to classify a band, then don't do it. It's better than attempting it and getting it wrong.

So now's the time where you choose to reply to the on-topic parts, or all of it. I'm not forcing you, so don't act like I am.

-AC

P, that Dude

LOL @ THE LENGTH OF THAT SHIT!!!

AC YOU WILD'N SON!

no beef

Do you. . .

Bardiel13

Neither do I, but you just make them up or adhere to them, then realise you don't even know how to apply them.
Fine, then. You refuse to acknowledge them. Metalcore, Grindcore, and Folk Metal are all distinct, defined, recognized genres. I'm not too sure about Nintendocore.
Metalcore- The bridge between metal and hardcore. With metal-styled distortion and harsh vocals, these band play a blend of hardcore breakdowns and catchy meldoy with heavy metal solos.
Grindcore- Notorious for it's brutality, grindcore uses excessive down-tuning, rapid beatblasts, and often indecypherable vocals with a persistant thrashing sound.
Folk Metal- Folk Metal is the metal version of Folk Rock. It uses the elements of Heavy Metal, with folklore lyrics and traditional insturments of the subject.
You really can't put the bands of these genres anywhere else.

It wasn't exclusively, my point was how when comparing things or looking at genres or musical subjects alone, we can judge by fact if there is a specific criteria. Hawthorne Heights are a metal band, and this has been proven, they were also on an exclusively metal tour.
I already told you. There are few "pure metal" tours out there. Metal and hardcore go into the same fandom. And yes, metal has a certain criteria- and Hawthorne Heights doesn't follow it.

Do you have the memory span of a goldfish or something? I'm not going to give you more ways to dodge, so I'm going to get to the on-topic parts, later I will PM you said insult.
Please do. smile

No, I do not. I've heard of "metalcore", I've heard of "grindcore". I recognise that the music those labels are attached to, exists. What part of that do you not grasp? My problem is with the labels, literally. Not the music, the labels, and those who use them.
Look up at the first paragraph and you'll have your answer.

I'm not saying the music you label as rapcore (it's also called hip hop, not rap) doesn't exist, I'm saying the label is stupid and inapplicable. Like when you applied it to Rage, thus erasing any credibility you had.
Dear God, you're still using it? I told you, I wasn't credible in that area how many times now? And I didn't say RATM was JUST rapcore, I simply said I got the impression that it had some influences of it.

Furthermore, didn't know "Nintendocore" had been thought up until Sceneverstein brought it up, and why should I? It's pathetic, it's non-applicable and there is absolutely no reason for it. I knew that kind of music existed, I was unware of the label, and I couldn't care less. I don't need to know that the word "Nintendocore" exists.
Neither do I. Moving on.

So then we come back the my original point: You claim you've studied metal just because you love it, which you denied, only to then agree with.
Don't put words in my mouth. I never denied loving metal. You were making it seem like I just loved metal, but knew nothing about it. Drop it, man, you're not getting anywhere no expression

Because you are the one sitting there saying that the majority is against me, as if it's somehow reinforcing your claim. A majority of morons doesn't mean a thing.
By this, you're saying you know more about music than the entire majority of people, correct?

Having to? I don't have control over you, you're responsible for yourself, buddy. You can't help but reply, and it just leaves you looking sillier. Don't reply to that which you dislike then, but you know you fill your posts up because when it comes down to it, I'm proving you wrong at every turn.
And I'm proving you wrong right back, which then you try to prove me wrong, rinse, and repeat.

You don't, though. What do you want, respect? Admiration? You're posting on here with all the inconsistency and illogical argument of a 6 year old.
Look who's talking. You think taking obvious sarcasm makes you look smart? laughing out loud

No, seriously, do you? If I look silly in my argument, look look no better.

They're not called Hardrockica, are they? They're called Metallica because they are a metal band, world renowned and extremely famous for it. To deny that Metallica are a metal, to even question that, is despicable.
Point proven, I understand why you wouldn't want to get into it.
Stop getting ahead of youself. I never said Metallica were Hard Rock and not Metal. Hardrockica... funny, though.

We're in a debate, criticising is what happens. If you call Rage Against the Machine rapcore, you deserve critique. Deal with it.
I didn't call them rapcore. I said I got the impression that they had an element of rap or rapcore in their style. You shouldn't reply to this any further, because the more you tell me I'm an idiot for "calling RATM rapcore", the more of an imbecile you look.

It's not a certain style of distortion, you're making things up again. Hawthorne Heights and many others are simply metal bands, that's all they are. You have tried to say it relies on distortion; Bull. You've tried saying that it's not as heavy as a requirement; Bull, as I proved with the Metallica comparison, and you backed out. So what's left for you?
I've stated reasons why they are metal and you call it bull. Now it's your turn. Please be civil and list the elements of Hawthorne Height's music that makes them metal. Also state what genre they fit into.
And I didn't back out because I thought I'd lose. I just wanted to avoid another argument.

I know what the music sounds like, Bardiel. Regardless of whether it sounds like other metal bands or not, it's metal music. You aren't showing anything beyond "Yeah, the distortion style is different.". I've gave my evidence, you provide nothing.
What evidence did you give?! All you said was "They performed at a metal tour, thus they are totally metal." Not too solid, pal...

So you are now claiming you know more about metal than the journalists for a magazine that has been going since you were in pampers? Try it, please.
Once again, you get ahead of yourself. Seriously, how many times are you going to put words in my mouth? I never said they were wrong. I even stated (and you acknowledged) that hardcore and metal go together, so metal magazines also like to do articles about hardcore bands metal fans seem to be liking. They usually call them hardcore as well.

Bullet for My Valentine and Aiden are metal bands, they call themselves metal bands, they are known by magazines, music press and fans alike as metal bands. It was a metal band tour and Hawthorne Heights were a part of it, also touted as a metal band. Why? Because they are a metal band.
Fanbase? Who cares about a fanbase? I'm talking about the music. The music isn't called "metalcore" because the fans call themselves by that name. That's like calling Down stoner rock because their fans like to get stoned a lot, it's stupid.
Wait, wait, wait! Those paragraphs completly contradict each other! "Hawthorne Heights played with metal bands and people call them metal, so that's proof enough that they're metal" is the point of the first one and the next paragraph says that just because people say it's metalcore doesn't make it so. Explain this hypocrisy, AC!

I specifically directed you to what I said previously, you are getting desperate, man.
As are you, AC wink

I said you listed traits and then mentioned the two bands together, "Like Slayer and Amon Amarth.". It was a fair assumption.
What traits did I mention, besides the "headbanging, hail-to-sataing" thing? That was a joke, dude and you know it.

I've never actually re-read your posts, because once is enough. You re-directing me doesn't make your claim any more true.
Once is enough? Well this argument has shown you've had more than your share of misunderstanding or misreading my posts. Hell, you've even admitted it on some occasions.

I'm not getting all fired up, that's just a tactic people use to make it seem like they're getting the best of their opponent, when infact they aren't. Second, what do you mean I won't admit it? I think you're an idiot when it comes to music, because that's all I know of you.
I have to spell out and re-explain all of my sentences and even point out obvious sarcasm for you, yet you call me an idiot and expect me to take it as "Oh, he only think's I'm an idiot at music, not an idiot in general." BS, my friend.
Acting fired up is a tactic one uses to mask their insecurity? I do believe that means you think you're wrong. laughing out loud

It's not my fault you're actually getting nervy and feeling like you have to reply. If you don't have a clue, then don't go around labelling bands, simple solution isn't it?
If you don't know how to classify a band, then don't do it. It's better than attempting it and getting it wrong.
I'm not going around labeling bands. I know bands and their labels (at least in the metal category). I'm not tossing things around, saying Garth Brooks is Nintendocore.

So now's the time where you choose to reply to the on-topic parts, or all of it. I'm not forcing you, so don't act like I am.
Alright, I'll reply just to get things worked out. Afterward, it's a war of facts and research. No flames, no name-calling, no taking sarcasm literally, and for the love of GOD! no getting ahead of yourself!
Sound good?

Df02

Originally posted by Tptmanno1
Can I toss something out there?
Do we really NEED labels for ANY type of music? What is the purpose of lableing things becides giving people a reason for people to attempt to argue with AC, and I know from experience that it never turns out well...

feel free to disect absolutely every facet of the music you listen to so you can describe it, me, ill just use a proper genre title.

~Da Rev~

Originally posted by Bardiel13
So then we come back the my original point: You claim you've studied metal just because you love it, which you denied, only to then agree with.
Don't put words in my mouth. I never denied loving metal. You were making it seem like I just loved metal, but knew nothing about it. Drop it, man, you're not getting anywhere no expression

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Because you are the one sitting there saying that the majority is against me, as if it's somehow reinforcing your claim. A majority of morons doesn't mean a thing.
By this, you're saying you know more about music than the entire majority of people, correct?

You say he's putting words in your mouth. I see you doing the exact same thing.

Bardiel13

Originally posted by ~Da Rev~
You say he's putting words in your mouth. I see you doing the exact same thing.
I wasn't putting words in his mouth, I was asking him if that's what he really thought. Given the size of his ego, I would be surprised is he said yes laughing out loud

I put the "correct?" at the end to ask him to confirm it.

Alpha Centauri

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Fine, then. You refuse to acknowledge them. Metalcore, Grindcore, and Folk Metal are all distinct, defined, recognized genres. I'm not too sure about Nintendocore.
Metalcore- The bridge between metal and hardcore. With metal-styled distortion and harsh vocals, these band play a blend of hardcore breakdowns and catchy meldoy with heavy metal solos.

Hardcore breakdowns? There's only one definition of the musical term "Breakdown", son. It applies to any genre, there are no specific kinds of breakdown exclusive to "metalcore", as I proved to Silverstein.

You confuse the issue once more. Recognised by who? Not by me. It doesn't matter to me if everyone on MySpace recognises the word (not the music) "Metalcore", I think it's stupid and pretentious. It's metal, simply. You are just saying "It combines this, this and this.", without actually thinking if it makes sense.

Converge have the harshest vocals in music, possibly. They use distortion, they use breakdowns. Are they metalcore? No, they're a metal band.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Grindcore- Notorious for it's brutality, grindcore uses excessive down-tuning, rapid beatblasts, and often indecypherable vocals with a persistant thrashing sound.

Isis are like that, but Aaron Turner notably hates the term "Grindcore". Infact, he owns Hydrahead records, a label that pioneered the style you are referring to. They all call themselves metal bands, no "grind" in there.

Again, I suggest research.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Folk Metal is the metal version of Folk Rock. It uses the elements of Heavy Metal, with folklore lyrics and traditional insturments of the subject.

Traditional instruments of the subject? Subject meaning, what? Folk? The acoustic guitar is the traditional instrument there, Opeth use a lot of acoustic guitar, and a lot of heavy metal too. Folk Metal? No.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
You really can't put the bands of these genres anywhere else.

The bands themselves do, so who are you to argue with them over the music they create? I'd love to see you walk up to Aaron Turner and say "Hey man, you are a grindcore band!". He's laugh in your face.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
I already told you. There are few "pure metal" tours out there. Metal and hardcore go into the same fandom. And yes, metal has a certain criteria- and Hawthorne Heights doesn't follow it.

They do, by fact, but you're going to continually avoid that, so I'll move on to pressing matters.

They were on a purely metal tour, touted by a leading metal magazine as a metal tour, by the bands themselves. Who are you to tell them what isn't metal?

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Dear God, you're still using it? I told you, I wasn't credible in that area how many times now? And I didn't say RATM was JUST rapcore, I simply said I got the impression that it had some influences of it.

As long as you continue to assume you have the right to be placing labels, I will raise the fact that you attached "rapcore" to Rage, because you personally gained that impression, showing how much perception you lack.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Don't put words in my mouth. I never denied loving metal. You were making it seem like I just loved metal, but knew nothing about it. Drop it, man, you're not getting anywhere no expression

You are the one who said it, though. I said it to you simply, you said "No what I mean is etc...", tried overcomplicating it. To which I replied by simplifying it again, and you continued to complicate it.

You claim that you have experience because you have experienced metal. How have you experienced it? Immersion. What's immersion? Listening to it a lot. Which was exactly what I said.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
By this, you're saying you know more about music than the entire majority of people, correct?

No, it doesn't. It means numbers mean nothing, essentially. 10,000 wrong or incorrect opinions Vs 1 correct one doesn't make them any more right.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
And I'm proving you wrong right back, which then you try to prove me wrong, rinse, and repeat.

You're only replying because you've come too far to back out. I've got facts and knowledge on my side, you don't. The more you debate, the worse you look.

Nobody on this site questions my knowledge or credibility, nor will they, as a result of this. You will be known as the guy who simply got whooped by AC.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Look who's talking. You think taking obvious sarcasm makes you look smart? laughing out loud

No, seriously, do you? If I look silly in my argument, look look no better.

You just said the same thing back to me, at least be original/

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Stop getting ahead of youself. I never said Metallica were Hard Rock and not Metal. Hardrockica... funny, though.

You said it could be argued or that a discussion would ensue, how? They're undeniably a metal band. What's there to discuss? You are the one who mentioned them being either hard rock or metal.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
I didn't call them rapcore. I said I got the impression that they had an element of rap or rapcore in their style. You shouldn't reply to this any further, because the more you tell me I'm an idiot for "calling RATM rapcore", the more of an imbecile you look.

Firstly, stop calling it rap, it's hip hop. Do you call rock, sing? No, or maybe you do.

Secondly, rap...core? What is this "rapcore"? Metal with hip hop influence? If that's the case, then that's what you call it; Metal with hip hop influence. By calling a band "rapcore" or using that term, you are not only defacing one genre, but two.

-AC

Alpha Centauri

Originally posted by Bardiel13
I've stated reasons why they are metal and you call it bull. Now it's your turn. Please be civil and list the elements of Hawthorne Height's music that makes them metal. Also state what genre they fit into.
And I didn't back out because I thought I'd lose. I just wanted to avoid another argument.

Because it actually is bull, and anyone unbiased can see that vis-a-vis what you are basing it on. "Yeah...erm...different distortion!". What are you on about? Having a different guitar effect doesn't warrant a new genre, otherwise Tom Morello would be out there creating them everytime he plays.

I told you before that if you want to label them something other than metal, label them alternative metal. I can agree to that, really. They are admittedly different sounding metal, but not so different that it warrants a "'core" or some shit. They're just a different metal band. I can find genuine metal bands with all the qualities of Hawthorne Heights (except, you know...not shit.).

Originally posted by Bardiel13
What evidence did you give?! All you said was "They performed at a metal tour, thus they are totally metal." Not too solid, pal...

A) I didn't actually say that. I said they performed at a metal tour, with two other bands who are also metal, organised by a metal magazine for metal fans.

B) I have given evidence above and before.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Once again, you get ahead of yourself. Seriously, how many times are you going to put words in my mouth? I never said they were wrong. I even stated (and you acknowledged) that hardcore and metal go together, so metal magazines also like to do articles about hardcore bands metal fans seem to be liking. They usually call them hardcore as well.

Yes, but they don't, not this magazine, see how it works?

YOU are getting ahead of yourself, here. These people call them metal bands, you call them hardcore or "metalcore", right? That doesn't mean that they also cater for "metalcore", it means they cater for bands that you label as "metalcore". The kids are the only people calling them by that name.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Wait, wait, wait! Those paragraphs completly contradict each other! "Hawthorne Heights played with metal bands and people call them metal, so that's proof enough that they're metal" is the point of the first one and the next paragraph says that just because people say it's metalcore doesn't make it so. Explain this hypocrisy, AC!

It's not hypocricy when you change my quote. I said they were touted as a metal band by journalists and by themselves, on a metal tour, they are KNOWN as metal bands.

The difference between fans (you) and the bands/journalists is simple. One group thinks they know it all (like going around using "'Core" terms), and the others...the ones who make the music, don't do that.

So who's side is more acceptable, credible and reasonable? You telling me that a band is "metalcore", or the band themselves saying "We're metal"? The band. Yes. For example, Tool label themselves casually as hard rock, but most call them progressive metal. I have no reason to adhere to what the fans say, because the band know enough about their music to call it what they wish.

I specifically directed you to what I said previously, you are getting desperate, man.
As are you, AC wink

Originally posted by Bardiel13
What traits did I mention, besides the "headbanging, hail-to-sataing" thing? That was a joke, dude and you know it.

What reason did I have to believe it was a joke? Tell me. If the reason is "You don't think I believe that!", then I will say "You're the one calling Rage rapcore, funk metal and hard rock. How can I take anything you say seriously?".

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Once is enough? Well this argument has shown you've had more than your share of misunderstanding or misreading my posts. Hell, you've even admitted it on some occasions.

Once I admitted it, and that was the above part, you claiming it was actually a joke, but I don't believe it was, though there was no sense in arguing over it.

You keep changing your stance then acting like I misunderstand, and people here have seen it.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
I have to spell out and re-explain all of my sentences and even point out obvious sarcasm for you, yet you call me an idiot and expect me to take it as "Oh, he only think's I'm an idiot at music, not an idiot in general." BS, my friend.

I've no problem detecting sarcasm, I've interacted with more sarcastic people here than you. It was the fact that you never made mention of it being a joke, nor did you hint otherwise. I'm good, I'm not a mind-reader.

Oh, and what the hell is this hypocricy now? I call you out on the Slayer/Amarth debacle and you start throwing a fit because you claim you were joking. I clearly point out that I call you an idiot purely with regards to music, and you refuse to accept it? You can take what I say however you want, but I have the final say over what I meant.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Acting fired up is a tactic one uses to mask their insecurity? I do believe that means you think you're wrong.

Well I don't think I'm wrong, I know I'm right, that was never up for grabs. I just enjoy watching you fill your post with these little parts, because you can't resist, you can't actually debate on topic.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
I'm not going around labeling bands. I know bands and their labels (at least in the metal category). I'm not tossing things around, saying Garth Brooks is Nintendocore.

Avant-Garde alternative rock was how you described Radiohead.

Rapcore, funk-metal and hard rock was how you described Rage.

Alternative pop rock was how you described The Smiths.

You wish to tell me you're not throwing labels around? "I said I wasn't credible there." Then don't do it.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Alright, I'll reply just to get things worked out. Afterward, it's a war of facts and research. No flames, no name-calling, no taking sarcasm literally, and for the love of GOD! no getting ahead of yourself!
Sound good?

Don't get ahead of yourself? You are the one stating you can "war" with me, kid. If by war you mean Persian-Gulf, me as America, you as Iraq, then yeah.

From here on, it stays with regards to music only.

-AC

Bardiel13

Okay, I have grown sick of this agrument. It is clear that we are never going to agree. I skimmed your reply and here are the closing points I want to make:

It's not hypocricy when you change my quote. I said they were touted as a metal band by journalists and by themselves, on a metal tour, they are KNOWN as metal bands.
The difference between fans (you) and the bands/journalists is simple. One group thinks they know it all (like going around using "'Core" terms), and the others...the ones who make the music, don't do that.
So who's side is more acceptable, credible and reasonable? You telling me that a band is "metalcore", or the band themselves saying "We're metal"? The band. Yes. For example, Tool label themselves casually as hard rock, but most call them progressive metal. I have no reason to adhere to what the fans say, because the band know enough about their music to call it what they wish.
I didn't change your quote erm

You're the one calling Rage rapcore, funk metal and hard rock. How can I take anything you say seriously?
Did I call them that? No, I don't believe I did. That was the impression I got from their music. Are you saying there is NO element of rap, funk, or rock whatsoever? Tell me, since you know more than me (that's sarcasm), what would you classify their music as with your expert opinion.

I've no problem detecting sarcasm, I've interacted with more sarcastic people here than you. It was the fact that you never made mention of it being a joke, nor did you hint otherwise. I'm good, I'm not a mind-reader.
It doesn't take a mind-reader to know that a smilie that looks like this: stick out tongue

next to a sentence means that it's a joke. Don't act so dense.

Avant-Garde alternative rock was how you described Radiohead.
Rapcore, funk-metal and hard rock was how you described Rage.
Alternative pop rock was how you described The Smiths.
You wish to tell me you're not throwing labels around? "I said I wasn't credible there." Then don't do it.
Are you saying that all of my impression were 100% wrong? Then what are they?

Now, I'd like you to answer those questions and we can be done. This topic is stupid, because it's simply not going anywhere. You insult me, I insult you, that's it. Hell, why does it even matter?! We both don't even like Hawthorne Heights! We probably like tons of the same bands, yet you come off so hostile because, even though I gave a definition of emo with a list of example bands (most of which were correct, yes?) you got all over my back for naming ONE BAND.
You think little of me because we disagree, while I'm somewhat confused on why you would be so hostile toward me in this lame subject. And of course, in order to defend my pride, I have to fight back.
Let's just leave this alone and assume we're both wrong. How does that sound?

Alpha Centauri

Originally posted by Bardiel13
I didn't change your quote erm

You say the journalists and bands are the ones who call them metal, thus they are more credible. I don't know what magazines you read, but theones I do refer to such bands as hardcore. It seems no one is credible and genres are merely a concept. One side of people (fans, bands, and magazines alike) will always know hardcore as hardcore, while another side will refer to them as metal. No one is more credible than the other. You are no more credible than I am and I am not more credible than you. It's the view of the concept. Metalcore is not a myspace genre, it is recognized by magazines, websites, bands, and fans. You may not believe in it, but so many others out there do.

You misquoted me, either way, moving on.

Kerrang! has been a primary metal publication since June 1981, they've seen trends come, go and stay. Now they have far from a perfect set of writers, but they have some very good, very credible writers that have been a part of metal music through "immersion" (take that) since long before that. If they don't recognise the labels, if bands are starting to shun the labels and refer to themselves simply as rock or metal, what is that to say?

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Hrm... maybe the " :P "? laughing out loud

Hardly screams "The preceding comment is a joke.".

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Did I call them that? No, I don't believe I did. That was the impression I got from their music. Are you saying there is NO element of rap, funk, or rock whatsoever? Tell me, since you know more than me (that's sarcasm), what would you classify their music as with your expert opinion.

They're a hard rock band with hip hop influences, that's what they are. You don't need to go into saying they are funk metal, "rapcore" and shit like that. They are an instrumental 3 piece band that make hard rock music with hip hop influence that comes mostly from Zack and occasionally the rhythm section, on a few songs.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
It doesn't take a mind-reader to know that a smilie that looks like this: stick out tongue

next to a sentence means that it's a joke. Don't act so dense.

To you, maybe. Not to me, but I hold to you the same respect in THAT sense that I hold toward myself. You said it was a joke, so I will accept that it was and that I assumed wrong. My point was that it wasn't an unfair assumption.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Are you saying that all of my impression were 100% wrong? Then what are they?

Radiohead are a rock band at the very centre of things, they have a rock guitarist who can play very many styles and a vocalist who calls them such. They have other influences from electronics, but that's all they are, influences. They're still a rock band, dude.

The one I can slightly see is what you said about The Smiths. They have a great deal of pop sensabilities, but I'd hardly call them pop rock. Alternative rock maybe, when it was actually alternative, not just a cool name.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Now, I'd like you to answer those questions and we can be done. This topic is stupid, because it's simply not going anywhere. You insult me, I insult you, that's it. Hell, why does it even matter?! We both don't even like Hawthorne Heights! We probably like tons of the same bands, yet you come off so hostile because, even though I gave a definition of emo with a list of example bands (most of which were correct, yes?) you got all over my back for naming ONE BAND.
You think little of me because we disagree, while I'm somewhat confused on why you would be so hostile toward me in this lame subject. And of course, in order to defend my pride, I have to fight back.
Let's just leave this alone and assume we're both wrong. How does that sound?

You don't have to fight back, I don't think little of YOU; I think little of your musical perception, since that's all I know, and finally, no.

I'm not wrong, I don't debate unless I'm sure.

Your questions have been answered.

-AC