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Combatants: Ulic Qel-Droma, Jedi turned Sith apprentice versus Darth Malak, the "Jawless Wonder".

Setting: Coruscant, The Republic Senate Chamber of the Old Republic (where Kun/Vodo fought).

Could've been done before, but I skimmed through the searches, so whatever...

Well honestly if you guys do put Ulic>Revan, or in my opinion Revan=Ulic, that simple fact should be enough for Ulic to take this match. Not to mention Malak isn't powered by the SF.

Ulic just has this.

How do you suppose Ulic would fair against Revan?

I'd go for Ulic clearly, however, as most people regard Revan the "#1 of the era" (even though his era includes Exar Kun), I'd say Ulic is the "#2 of the era" only behind Kun. Followed then by Revan.

Yea it seems like Ulic is #2 maybe.. He was also called a lightsaber prodigy and he did stalemate Kun(obviously before Kun developed his new style). To be honest though aside from his defeat of Mandalore, he didn't impress me much. He was indeed powerful but how powerful compared to the likes of Revan? That is debateable.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
How do you suppose Ulic would fair against Revan?

I'd go for Ulic clearly, however, as most people regard Revan the "#1 of the era" (even though his era includes Exar Kun), I'd say Ulic is the "#2 of the era" only behind Kun. Followed then by Revan.

Well there are many ways of looking at the word 'era'. IMO, Vodo was better than Ulic and very close to Exar Kun. Then you get Thon, Arca and Nomi.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Yea it seems like Ulic is #2 maybe.. He was also called a lightsaber prodigy and he did stalemate Kun(obviously before Kun developed his new style). To be honest though aside from his defeat of Mandalore, he didn't impress me much. He was indeed powerful but how powerful compared to the likes of Revan? That is debateable.

He stalemated both Kun, and Sylvar (one of the most powerful knights) while out of practise and cut off from the force.

Yes I know that, but why would you consider Sylvar one of the most powerful nights? Him stalemating without the force is the only reason I would ever put him above Revan, and that's in terms of saber combat.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Yes I know that, but why would you consider Sylvar one of the most powerful nights? Him stalemating without the force is the only reason I would ever put him above Revan, and that's in terms of saber combat.

Sylvar was very powerful.
The only knight more powerful than her is Nomi imo. I mean there is even one panel where she takes out about 3 Massasi warriors without a lightsaber in seconds. She was also able to kind of challenge Kun in a saber duel when they were both students of Vodo (although Kun was clearly her superior) - she is even able to scratch him with her Cathar claws while in a saber lock. She is shown to be clearly more powerful than jedi like Tott Doneeta and Dace Diath, who were even mentioned to be some of the most exceptional students in the jedi order. She was also able to easily sneak up on Oss Wilum (another of those exceptional students) and knock him out with the hilt of her saber. She also displays great speed, strength and skill while performing a kind of ritual hunt in her homeworld. The only people in TSW and TDLOTS that I would put above her would be Vodo-Siosk Bass, Odan-Urr, Thon, Arca jeth and Ood Bnar (just), and Exar Kun, Ulic Quel-Droma and Nomi Sunrider.

By the way, it's a she.

That's a lot of people lol.

The only knight more powerful than her in that list is Nomi...

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
Well there are many ways of looking at the word 'era'.

Very true.



Yes, despite Exar Kun besting Vodo as a padawan. Then toying with and utterly destroying Vodo later on. Please, I've already provided an argument for why Ulic > Vodo.



Originally posted by Motoko Sama
So was Sylvar? Oh, you mean this Sylvar:

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/9079/sylvarfailsyv5.th.jpg

Seems a flick of the wrist from Exar Kun is all it takes to take down Sylvar. Very powerful indeed.

And Ulic being able to even defend against Sylvar for that long doesn't speak volumes for Sylvar. At all. Considering she was tapping into the Darkside and had the Force. Just so you know, the Force increases proficiency in saber dueling as well. So that only speaks well for Ulic; it doesn't work both ways.



And you're basing this off what exactly?



Please, she tapped into the Darkside during their fight. As much was made clear, right after if you notice Exar Kun is practically about to bring one of his sledgehammer swings to her head.



Oh, you mean the Tott Donetta who blocked blaster fire from ships?

http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/6609/tottblock8jsqz4.th.jpg

Yeah, I sure as hell saw Sylvar displaying some "powerful skills".



She's nothing special. She's just a Jedi Knight that's vengeful for the lose of her mate, Crado. I'd submit Cay Qel-Droma > Sylvar anyday. And Cay isn't too good either.

Ulic as a Jedi Knight > Sylvar, too.

Yea Sama is right Sylvar was nothing, but it speaks volumes for his ability if he can use a lightsaber without the force.

'Seems a flick of the wrist from Exar Kun is all it takes to take down Sylvar. Very powerful indeed.'

Do you seriously understand how idiotic that statement is? Since when does being force pushed by Exar Kun make you weak? It's not like it even injured her. I could say the same about Sidious in his battle with Yoda - 'Seems a flick of the wrist from Yoda is all it takes to take down Sidious. Very powerful indeed.' - see how silly that is?

'Please, she tapped into the Darkside during their fight. As much was made clear, right after if you notice Exar Kun is practically about to bring one of his sledgehammer swings to her head.'

It stills shows that she must have been pretty powerful. To even contend with Exar, I can't see Toot, Dace or Cay doing that. It seems Vodo must have been a great teacher (in terms of training them as warriors).

'Oh, you mean the Tott Donetta who blocked blaster fire from ships?'

That is impressive, but the fact that she was able to defeat three Massasi warriors without a saber in seconds kind of convinced me, and Tott blocking blaster bolts with his hands (while tha is impressive) isn't going to convince me otherwise.

I'm sorry but how does defeating 3 Massassi warriors with a saber make her powerful? She got curbstomped by the 4th. And what do you mean contend with Kun? She didn't contend with Kun, she wanted to fight him. Nothing even remotely suggests that she can contend with Kun. And again, Tott blocking blaster bolts with his hands is a hell of a lot more impressive than anything Sylvar did.

'Yes, despite Exar Kun besting Vodo as a padawan. Then toying with and utterly destroying Vodo later on. Please, I've already provided an argument for why Ulic > Vodo.'

Firstly, he never bested him as a padawan. Vodo had defeated him, but Kun was able to break through his stick a second time (part 2 of their first duel, not their final duel) around with the addition of two sabers and his raw physical strength. This just shows the inferiority of Vodo's staff.
Secondly, there is only a time difference of about a year between their two fights, so while Kun improved very greatly between the two fights, I just wanted to point that out.
Thirdly, I honestly don't see how you consider the fight a slaughter. The fight was pretty even imo, and Kun was only able to defeat him by breaking through his staff, and not by outdueling him which shows that he won due to the inferiority of Vodo's staff (though it does show that Kun possessed great physical strength). IMHO the difference between Kun and Vodo was the same difference between Obi-Wan and Anakin in ROTS.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I'm sorry but how does defeating 3 Massassi warriors with a saber make her powerful? She got curbstomped by the 4th. And what do you mean contend with Kun? She didn't contend with Kun, she wanted to fight him. Nothing even remotely suggests that she can contend with Kun. And again, Tott blocking blaster bolts with his hands is a hell of a lot more impressive than anything Sylvar did.

No, Sylvar did it without her saber. And she never got 'corbstomped' by another.
And you obviously haven't read DLOTS, where she and Kun spar as padawans.

Yes, I have read DLOTS, i'm looking it as we speak. You seem to think that she "contends" with Kun, while I'm telling you she just challenged him, and then was beat. How is that a testament to her power? And yes she does get curbstomped by the 4th, look at your TSW comic very closely.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
'Yes, despite Exar Kun besting Vodo as a padawan. Then toying with and utterly destroying Vodo later on. Please, I've already provided an argument for why Ulic > Vodo.'

Firstly, he never bested him as a padawan. Vodo had defeated him, but Kun was able to break through his stick a second time (part 2 of their first duel, not their final duel) around with the addition of two sabers and his raw physical strength. This just shows the inferiority of Vodo's staff.
Secondly, there is only a time difference of about a year between their two fights, so while Kun improved very greatly between the two fights, I just wanted to point that out.
Thirdly, I honestly don't see how you consider the fight a slaughter. The fight was pretty even imo, and Kun was only able to defeat him by breaking through his staff, and not by outdueling him which shows that he won due to the inferiority of Vodo's staff (though it does show that Kun possessed great physical strength). IMHO the difference between Kun and Vodo was the same difference between Obi-Wan and Anakin in ROTS.

I never considered Kun's defeat of Vodo a slaughter, but he did indeed end it rather quickly once he ignited his second blade.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
'Seems a flick of the wrist from Exar Kun is all it takes to take down Sylvar. Very powerful indeed.'

Do you seriously understand how idiotic that statement is?

That's a very funny question to be asking me.



Considering she's crying, and holding her head - she clearly felt some effect of it.



You could say that. However Yoda, we have actual evidence of being powerful. Sylvar...we have your baseless speculation with no evidence backing up her power other than getting owned on almost every occasion.



How exactly would that be? Firstly, that would be a padawan Exar Kun. Secondly, she tapped into the Darkside when Kun wasn't expecting it.



To contend with a padawan Kun - you can't see Tott Donetta do that? Or Cay for that matter. That's pretty funny. On top of the fact Sylvar used the Darkside when Kun wasn't expecting it.

Ah yes, I forgot that catching someone clearly superior to you using the Darkside means you can actually "contend" with them. As well, if you notice right after Kun pushes Sylvar's face in with apparent ease. She was simply overpowered by Kun's single hand.

Kun wasn't expecting it hence the "You've failed Master Vodo's test" text. And are you going to tell me that Sylvar can contend with Master Vodo as a padawan? Ha. That's just silly.



Sure. As good as a job Arca Jeth did on teaching Ulic, Cay, and Tott. And Vodo being a great teacher means what exactly? I seem to recall Kun developing his own style separate from Vodo, and his own lightsaber. Along with the Sith teachings making Exar Kun what he is.

Vodo did a good job of course, not taking anything away from him, but his teachings weren't the only thing that made Exar superior.



Oh yes, Sylvar giving into her pointless rage and clawing three Massassi means she is clearly superior to the other Jedi Knights of the era! Great reasoning, I guess Sidious > everyone in history of Star Wars since he decimated three Jedi Masters in seconds then.

Since when has the bar standard become killing three Massassi in an angry rage (notice she didn't have a problem when the two Massassi stopped her from attacking Kun) before you can be considering "powerful"? That's ridiculous.

You overestimate the power of every single TOTJ character (Vodo, Odan, Ood, etc.), and even submitted once that Vodo > Kun! Your "reasonings" clearly aren't based off what we see in the comic.



And this is somehow not besting Vodo? Clearly the fact that Vodo could not disarm Kun as he had done the first time is incompetance on Vodo's part.



As opposed to what exactly?



Kun was being contemptuous with him and trying to commute Vodo to the Darkside. As soon as he realizes Vodo won't falter, he casually steps back, ignites the other end of his lightsaber, gives a quick sermon, and then cleaves Vodo in two effortlessly. All with one side of his lightsaber. Add to the fact he was practically grinning the whole fight, and that's how I see it. Not to mention how well he fared as a padawan against Vodo, but now he's a Sith Lord, mastered lightsaber combat, created a new lightsaber which hasn't been seen before, received Nadd's teachings, Sadow's amulet, Sadow's scrolls, and all that stuff.

Now the simple fact that Kun used ONE SIDE of his lightsaber to break Vodo's side (not two) shows me he clearly is > Vodo.



The difference between Anakin and Obi-Wan is by a decent margin. Obi-Wan is not close to Anakin in terms of dueling whatsoever. Nor is Vodo close to Kun in terms of Force abilities.

She's got a point Nebaris.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Yes, I have read DLOTS, i'm looking it as we speak. You seem to think that she "contends" with Kun, while I'm telling you she just challenged him, and then was beat. How is that a testament to her power? And yes she does get curbstomped by the 4th, look at your TSW comic very closely.

She was still able to scratch his face while in a saber lock.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I never considered Kun's defeat of Vodo a slaughter, but he did indeed end it rather quickly once he ignited his second blade.

It's a comic, so you can't really tell how how long it took. The thing is, Exar Kun couldn't outduel him. Vodo's defences were perfect and you could see frustration on Exar Kun's face. And he only defeated him by breaking his staff and thus due to the inferiority of Vodo's weapon, though it does speak volumes for Kun's physical strength. I'd hardly call that a slaughter.

Wow, you could see frustration on his face? Funny Nebaris, I often thought that he was talking with Vodo and toying with him, and when Vodo said no(as Sama said), he got serious, ignited his second blade, and took out Vodo. And inferiority of Vodo's weapon? Perhaps you forgot the fact that Vodo made his staff more powerful than a lightsaber...

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
She was still able to scratch his face while in a saber lock.

While she was also catching Kun off gaurd and giving into her blind rage. She cannot contend with Exar, this is made apparent throughout the beginning of Crado's fight, and Vodo's fight. Hell, even right after Exar Kun pushes her face in with apparent ease. She's not "powerful", no more powerful than Tott Donetta, or Oss Willum.



Oh yes, I forget that Exar Kun (despite having a unique style not seen by Vodo, and a unique weapon not seen by Vodo) being able to contend with Vodo as a padawan cannot outduel him regardless of the fact he's now a master swordsman.



Frustration? You mean the grin that's on his face while he's talking to Vodo throughout the entire fight? Only once he realizes truly that Vodo won't turn, he ignites the other end of his blade and cleaves Vodo in half with one side of his blade.

I suppose in AOTC Windu when he has a grimace on his face, it means Jango was giving him trouble. Or when AOTC Dooku has a sneer on his face as well. Are you telling me that a scowl is proof of equality?



Yes, clearly the way you interpret the fight it isn't a slaughter. However, to the rest of the world: Kun toyed with and destroyed Vodo.

Indeed, as much as I dislike the idea of Kun tooling Vodo, that is how it appeared.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Considering she's crying, and holding her head - she clearly felt some effect of it.

lol another idiotic statement there Mokoto. She's crying because she just witnessed her master being killed and she's holding her head not in agony or physical pain, but emotional pain of seeing her master get murdered. lmao. That statement just made me lol.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
You could say that. However Yoda, we have actual evidence of being powerful. Sylvar...we have your baseless speculation with no evidence backing up her power other than getting owned on almost every occasion.

lol, idiotic statement number 3. Reading comprehension is your friend Mokoto. I suggest reading through the post again, because you clearly missed the point.

Here's what you said:'Seems a flick of the wrist from Exar Kun is all it takes to take down Sylvar. Very powerful indeed.'

And here's what I said in reply: 'Do you seriously understand how idiotic that statement is? Since when does being force pushed by Exar Kun make you weak? It's not like it even injured her. I could say the same about Sidious in his battle with Yoda - 'Seems a flick of the wrist from Yoda is all it takes to take down Sidious. Very powerful indeed.' - see how silly that is?'

My point was that you are claiming Sylvar to be weak because she got taken down by Exar in seconds (as did Odan btw, except he died) by a force push. Using your logic, Sidious sucked because he too was taken down by a force push from Yoda, who most people actually consider to be weaker than Kun.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
How exactly would that be? Firstly, that would be a padawan Exar Kun. Secondly, she tapped into the Darkside when Kun wasn't expecting it.

And Kun wasn't tapping into the darkside. He didn't seem too jedi like to me either. He was taunting her and going full out imo.



Originally posted by Motoko Sama
To contend with a padawan Kun - you can't see Tott Donetta do that? Or Cay for that matter. That's pretty funny. On top of the fact Sylvar used the Darkside when Kun wasn't expecting it. Ah yes, I forgot that catching someone clearly superior to you using the Darkside means you can actually "contend" with them. As well, if you notice right after Kun pushes Sylvar's face in with apparent ease. She was simply overpowered by Kun's single hand.

lmao, let's get something straight. Do you believe tha Tott would be able to contend with padawan Kun? And whether you believe it was fair or not, she clearly put up a fight and it was too bad that she had to resort to bad play and let her emotions get the worst of her.



Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Kun wasn't expecting it hence the "You've failed Master Vodo's test" text. And are you going to tell me that Sylvar can contend with Master Vodo as a padawan? Ha. That's just silly.

Of course not, but she did put up a fight against Kun.




Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Sure. As good as a job Arca Jeth did on teaching Ulic, Cay, and Tott. And Vodo being a great teacher means what exactly? I seem to recall Kun developing his own style separate from Vodo, and his own lightsaber. Along with the Sith teachings making Exar Kun what he is.

Exar Kun was still a very powerful padawan, and that was due to Vodo. Vodo states that he was the most gifted student he had ever had. And Vodo was a good teacher. The disciple from KOTOR2 considers his teachings one of the most valuable pieces of jedi history. It makes sense that he trained Sylvar to be one of the most promising knights.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Oh yes, Sylvar giving into her pointless rage and clawing three Massassi means she is clearly superior to the other Jedi Knights of the era! Great reasoning, I guess Sidious > everyone in history of Star Wars since he decimated three Jedi Masters in seconds then.

Wait a minute, you can't just downplay her feats by saying that she tapped into the darkside. That's just silly.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
You overestimate the power of every single TOTJ character (Vodo, Odan, Ood, etc.), and even submitted once that Vodo > Kun! Your "reasonings" clearly aren't based off what we see in the comic.

That's just logically fallacious. You say that I overrate every TOTJ character, and that the fact that I rate Vodo and Exar very closely supports that. Guess what Mokoto, Kun is a TOTJ character.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
And this is somehow not besting Vodo? Clearly the fact that Vodo could not disarm Kun as he had done the first time is incompetence on Vodo's part.

lol, incompetence on Vodo's part. So he couldn't disarm Kun, he therefor must suck. See how idiotic that is?

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Kun was being contemptuous with him and trying to commute Vodo to the Darkside. As soon as he realizes Vodo won't falter, he casually steps back, ignites the other end of his lightsaber, gives a quick sermon, and then cleaves Vodo in two effortlessly. All with one side of his lightsaber. Add to the fact he was practically grinning the whole fight, and that's how I see it. Not to mention how well he fared as a padawan against Vodo, but now he's a Sith Lord, mastered lightsaber combat, created a new lightsaber which hasn't been seen before, received Nadd's teachings, Sadow's amulet, Sadow's scrolls, and all that stuff.

Now the simple fact that Kun used ONE SIDE of his lightsaber to break Vodo's side (not two) shows me he clearly is > Vodo.

That was your interpretation of the fight. And Vodo was trying to turn Kun back to the light way more than Kun was trying to turn Vodo to the dark. That was just banter and taunting/intimidation on Kun's part, he knew that Vodo would never realistically turn to the dark side. Vodo on the other hand may have believed he could have possibly redeemed Kun. He was incredibly wise like most masters are, but also similar to most masters he was pretty naive when it came to his fallen student.
And your interpretation might be that Kun tooled with vodo. Mine is that Kun was clearly frustrated throughout the entire duel and could do nothing to break through Vodo's perfect defences.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
The difference between Anakin and Obi-Wan is by a decent margin. Obi-Wan is not close to Anakin in terms of dueling whatsoever. Nor is Vodo close to Kun in terms of Force abilities.

Actually, Anakin and Obi-Wan are very close in terms of skill.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
lol another idiotic statement there Mokoto.

Funny you mention idiocy because you can't even get my name right!



Of course, you "loling" is relevant.




And grammar is yours. Who the hell is "Mokoto" again?




Coupled along with the various facts that she's nothing special.



And? Clearly since Sylvar was the one who first failed Vodo's test - it's clear. Kun was not tapping into the Darkside during their fight. Being arrogant - sure, but so was Kenobi - "Sith Lords are our speciality" - was he "tapping into the Darkside" too?




How exactly do you come to the conclusion that Sylvar faired well against Kun? When she didn't do any more than Crado did except of course, attacking Kun with the Darkside when he wasn't expecting it. A melee attack no less, not with a lightsaber. I suppose on a realistic level TPM Kenobi can contend with Darth Maul. Never mind the fact that he only gained an advantage when tapping into the Darkside. As demonstrated throughout the entire fight prior to that Kenobi was of no consequence to him.



A fight? Yes, she put up as good of a fight as Crado did. The fight lasted less than a page (not even half!) before she gave into her emotions.



Yeah, and so did Crado then I suppose?



So because Vodo is a good teacher that means his students must be good? Clearly Crado sucked. A good teacher doesn't mean good students. Lumiya and Flint is another example.

And "most promising knights"?

http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/6782/exceptionalknightsah8.th.jpg

Yes, she's "as promising" as all the other Jedi Knights. On the next page is Qrrrl Toq, Nomi, and Ulic for reference.

Oh and Kun was good because of Vodo? That's a pretty ridiculous assertion considering you have no idea how well he'd fair under the tutelage of Arca perhaps. You seem to think Vodo bestowed all the power Exar Kun had with "his teaching".



Considering she did tap into the Darkside, and also considering she didn't seem to do anything when only two Massassi guards stopped her. Sure, it's nice to defeat a primitive race with your bare claws; however, how does that put her above everyone else? I'd like to know that really.



Who the hell is "Mokoto" again?



Did he do anything to stop Kun was the actual point. A 600 year old Jedi master that can't stop his padawan. How does that speak for Vodo's skill?



Yes, you can think as you want, but as I said: the rest of the world knows Vodo was toyed with and utterly destroyed.



Right. You mean Anakin when not thinking clearly, under more grief than Obi-Wan himself, and being arrogant. Even so, Anakin got at least six solid melee hits on the Soresu master, who I remind you, did nothing except run away and get onto obstacles.

THis is pointless Sama. Nebaris bro stop, no offense.

*ignores td*
Look Mokoto, you have lost, accept that. I quite frankly can't be bothered to get into a big debate with you, but believe me, you're wrong. The fact that you only attempted to refute half my points proves as much. Anybody looking objectively a this would know that. And believe me, if I could be bothered, I could refute anyone one those posts, and it wouldn't be difficult.

That's very mature, pull a lightsnake bro.. .Smart..

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
*ignores td*
Look Mokoto, you have lost, accept that. I quite frankly can't be bothered to get into a big debate with you, but believe me, you're wrong. The fact that you only attempted to refute half my points proves as much. Anybody looking objectively a this would know that.

How about you debate me on another subject then? One you actually would both to go into a long debate about.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
How about you debate me on another subject then? One you actually would both to go into a long debate about.

It's not about the subject. I'm just tired and I don't want to ware myself out. I'm also going on SWGalaxies in a bit, I don't really have time. And to prove that I'm not backing out, I'll let you choose any one of your points for me to refute, because believe me, I'm not stopping this debate because I can't continue, I'm doing so because I can't be bothered.

No, I was challenging you to an actual fullblown debate of something of importance.

Really you've yet to prove that Sylvar was above the other Jedi Knights of the era. You've submitted two pieces of evidence that can even be considered: Clawing Kun's face, and defeating three Massassi with her claws.

Tott's blocked blaster fire, and was actually called an "exceptional Jedi Knight". There. That basically puts Tott on Sylvar's level. You do not decide what puts someone above someone or what is "more impressive" (and I'd submit blocking continuous blaster fire from aircrafts is harder than clawing primitive Massassi or getting a cheap shot on Kun).

And then you say she actually put up a "good" fight against Exar Kun as a padawan. When there's no evidence to suggest that considering the fight lasted less than a page before she defied Vodo and scratched Exar Kun with her claws. She crossed lightsabers twice with Exar, as much as Crado did. Now I suppose Crado can contend with Exar Kun as well? No. We've seen that demonstrated already.

You're claiming she actually did good, or at least put up a fight, I'm showing you that they only crossed sabers twice (shown at least) which is the same amount that Crado and Kun had. And how can we forget...she battled Ulic while he had no connection to the Force! Yet Ulic managed to hold her off even though she was in an obsessive rage. Like I said, that only speaks well for Ulic. Not Sylvar.

And then you give a spiel about Vodo being Exar Kun's equal. When there's clearly logic to dictate that is not the case. You gave me an explaination for the fight and I gave you mine. How the hell are you going to tell me that I'm wrong and you're right? And then go further to claim people should agree with you. So, from all that I decided I want to go into a full debate with you on another subject (as I could care less about Sylvar).

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
No, I was challenging you to an actual fullblown debate of something of importance.

Really you've yet to prove that Sylvar was above the other Jedi Knights of the era. You've submitted two pieces of evidence that can even be considered: Clawing Kun's face, and defeating three Massassi with her claws.

Tott's blocked blaster fire, and was actually called an "exceptional Jedi Knight". There. That basically puts Tott on Sylvar's level. You do not decide what puts someone above someone or what is "more impressive" (and I'd submit blocking continuous blaster fire from aircrafts is harder than clawing primitive Massassi or getting a cheap shot on Kun).

And then you say she actually put up a "good" fight against Exar Kun as a padawan. When there's no evidence to suggest that considering the fight lasted less than a page before she defied Vodo and scratched Exar Kun with her claws. She crossed lightsabers twice with Exar, as much as Crado did. Now I suppose Crado can contend with Exar Kun as well? No. We've seen that demonstrated already.

You're claiming she actually did good, or at least put up a fight, I'm showing you that they only crossed sabers twice (shown at least) which is the same amount that Crado and Kun had. And how can we forget...she battled Ulic while he had no connection to the Force! Yet Ulic managed to hold her off even though she was in an obsessive rage. Like I said, that only speaks well for Ulic. Not Sylvar.

And then you give a spiel about Vodo being Exar Kun's equal. When there's clearly logic to dictate that is not the case. You gave me an explaination for the fight and I gave you mine. How the hell are you going to tell me that I'm wrong and you're right? And then go further to claim people should agree with you. So, from all that I decided I want to go into a full debate with you on another subject (as I could care less about Sylvar).

1. you don't just challenge people to debates here. The only reason you would have would be to prove something. Obviously you feel you have something to prove after losing to me in a debate. Get over it Mokoto.

2. You're being extremely unbiased towards Sylvar if you consider her defeating 3 Massasi warriors with just her claws nothing special.

3. I've already admitted that this is impressive, however imo Sylvar has displayed greater skill and power. And I'd like to remind you that Oss Wilum was included in that list of 'exceptional jedi knights', and Sylvar was able to easily sneak up behind him and knock him out, and he was almost fully consumed by the darkside by this point.

4. One point: the amount of panels of a battle in a comic doesn't entirely represent the duration of the fight, but more the significance of the fight to the story. And if Kun was so much better than her, he should have been able to disarm her at least. She was even able to stand her ground in a saber lock with Kun (who was incredibly physically strong).

5. Did I say that stalemating Ulic in his form speaks well for Sylvar? Stop putting words into my mouth. The only thing I said was that it speaks especially well for Ulic, because we already know that she was very powerful. And she did much better than Crado. It's also funny how you have no problem with Exar Kun performing a melee attack (by kicking Crado), but you clearly have a problem with Sylvar performing a melee attack (by scratching him across the face). You also seem to be misunderstanding something very vital. She failed the task not by performing a melee attack, but by giving into her anger and using her claws (which was considered very dishonourable by her race). I mean she could have just as easily punched him instead and possibly win, and there would have been no failure. She did put up a fight. Accept it. And also: Exar Kun was only able to knock her off her feet with one hand so easily because it seems she must have frozen in such shame and Kun, being as angry as he was thought he would just lash out.

6. The thing is, I'm incredibly intelligent and great a judging things such as fights (even from comics) , and so I trust my interpretation over your's. And there are others who agree with me (on other forums), and it is clear that the creators of the comic wanted the fight to be pretty even to a degree, otherwise it wouldn't be as interesting if Exar Kun just owned everyone he came across like he did Odan.

BY the wa Mokoto, you just got owned, so badly.

1.) Really now? Calvin challenged (or was challenged) to a debate here. And how exactly did I "lose to you" again? In case you didn't see my response (to which you replied with this) it pretty much proved you're putting your opinion on the matter over mine. Despite the fact that I provide instances from the comic, actual quotes, and scans.

You just say "Well, Mokoto Soma I am better than you in debating regardless of the fact I clearly have no clue what I am talking about. BUT that's not the point, the point is I am a smug, little chump so my opinion trumps yours".

Please. And you have the nerve to call Darth Sexy a sock of a banned member? That's funny because you seem more like a Numan sock.

2.) Ah yes, and I suppose Tott Donetta blocking blaster fire isn't anything special. Of course how can blocking starship fire in any way compare to Sylvar clawing three Massassi in a rage.

Please.

3.) Yes. And what exactly are all these "greater displays of power and skill"? Knocking out Oss Willum (and when the hell did that even happen) ? Getting in a shot on Exar Kun ? Or wait - clawing Massassi with her bare hands ?

These three pieces of evidence alone put her above Tott Donetta and the rest of the gang, eh? By your standards Sidious > all because he killed three Jedi Masters in seconds, and no one has duplicated the feat (aside from Traya).

And I'd like to point out exactly what the hell you're talking about. When did Oss Willum ever get knocked out by Sylvar?

4. Yes, I suppose a one slide saberlock means that Sylvar = Exar Kun. May I remind you that Yoda is capable of carrying a gatling gun the size of a house on his back? Surprisingly, he's not able to break Count Dooku's saberlock (or overcome it), but then again I guess when you have the Force to enhance your strength - your opponents physical strength isn't always the end all solution nor does it matter too much. Now you're just arguing ridiculous. Since when has a saberlock (in which isn't in live action) been proof of equality?

5.) I was simply pointing out it doesn't volumes for Sylvar's power. Exar Kun's melee attack was not fueled by aggression or the Darkside, so how does it compare really?

And yes, I love how every event supports your ideas. "She froze because she was ashamed!" - even though there's no indication of that.

6.) You'd really want to bet your intelligence over mine? I think I'll steal a quote from you: "that made me lol". And please, you didn't create TOTJ - nor play any part in the creation of anything related to Star Wars. Your interpretation is as valid as mine. You putting your opinion over mine is a logical fallacy in itself - just in-case you didn't know.

Oh, and I'd like to see this illustrious list of "other's that agree", because Sexy agreed with me on both subjects of the matter. But then again, I suspect a witty retort consisting of "etc., etc., etc. I own you".

So, going over it, your argument that Sylvar's displayed more impressive skills is just

Your. Opinion.

And so,

It. Holds. No. Power. Over. Mine.

Thus,

You. Didn't. Own. Sh*t.

And for the record - I didn't get owned. Especially not by the likes of you. If I did, I would've been forced to commit seppuku.

By the Numan, your argument sucked. Badly.

And nevermind about Sylvar knocking Oss out. I rechecked that.

1. Is that you Mokoto? You're really not debating very well.
2. Please don't accuse me of being a sock just because I'm beating you in a debate.
3. Here's where Sylvar did it:

You'll notice here that it seems that he must have been knocked out:

1.) Not debating well? Yes, because you're claiming that Sylvar's feats are somehow more impressive , and I don't often have to deal with egos; I cannot provide good enough debates to someone that thinks feat x is more impressive than feat y. And who thinks that somehow he can interpret a comic book.

2.) Beating me in a debate? Yes, I'm sure you would think so. Regardless of the fact it's up to the reader. I accused you of being a Numan sock, how is that any different from you simply "ignoring" DS?

3.) I already said nevermind about that.

And all Sylvar did was knock him down. Lightsaber whipped him if you will, because immediately after Oss is knocked on the ground he was attacked by the Thon, which can be seen here:

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/9760/thonattackossol1.th.jpg

1. There's been way more to the debate than that. You've been making rediculous assertions, and I've shooten down all of them.
2. He was being a complete troll in this thread.
3. I was already in the middle of my post while you made your's.

1.) Ridiculous assertions? I forgot, claiming Exar = Vodo is logical. I forgot saying that "While blocking blaster fire is impressive, knocking out Oss Willum is far more impressive", as well saying "Everyone agrees, Mokoto!" - when I've yet to see a single voice aside from your own host that opinion.

Yep GM, I've made a few assertions that are far from right, but don't act like you haven't done the same either, because that would be just...well, ridiculous.

2.) Personally I could care less, as it seems he's only been a negative to your side.

3.) Fair enough.

'And all Sylvar did was knock him down. Lightsaber whipped him if you will, because immediately after Oss is knocked on the ground he was attacked by the Thon, which can be seen here:'

Ok my bad, I missed that part, but it still was pretty impressive, sneaking up on him like that. She could have killed him if she had wanted. And she still sent him stumbling, but whatever.

1. Rediculous assertions, such as Sylvar must suck because Exar Kun was able to force push her. And you were also saying that it was ok for Kun to melee attack, but not ok for Sylvar to do the same. You also said that I was a TOTJ fanboy because I rate Vodo and Exar (both TOTJ characters) on around the same level.

And I haven't made any rediculous assertions in this debate.