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I searched. Didn't come up. Lightsaber only. Battle is in Korriban.

Yeah, Kun'd take these two

Nebaris, why are you comparing Palpatine to Kun in saber combat? Kun was clearly superior to Palpatine in it. Force abilities are a different matter.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Nebaris, why are you comparing Palpatine to Kun in saber combat? Kun was clearly superior to Palpatine in it. Force abilities are a different matter.

Would you care to give an explanation?
The only thing that puts Kun above the PT top dogs in my eyes is his strength in the force, access to knowledge and artifacts at his disposal.
While he was undoubtedly a great duelist, I can't imagine him being greater than Sidous. I mean all he really did with a saber was floor Crado (a very strong knight at his time) when he was a padawan, stalemate Ulic Quel-Droma and defeat his master, though with the aid of an advantage in regards to their weapons: Vodo's staff was inferior as Kun's saber was able to break through it - this doesn't indicate Kun's superiority over Vodo in regards to dueling in any way except that it shows that Kun possessed incredibly strong physical strength.

Crado is the most pathetic.....thing Star Wars has ever produced except Tomcat

Kun would probably win this one, with or without his amulet.

You can't deny that he was probably one of the most powerful knights in the series though.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
Would you care to give an explanation?
The only thing that puts Kun above the PT top dogs in my eyes is his strength in the force, access to knowledge and artifacts at his disposal.
While he was undoubtedly a great duelist, I can't imagine him being greater than Sidous. I mean all he really did with a saber was floor Crado (a very strong knight at his time) when he was a padawan, stalemate Ulic Quel-Droma and defeat his master, though with the aid of an advantage in regards to their weapons: Vodo's staff was inferior as Kun's saber was able to break through it - this doesn't indicate Kun's superiority over Vodo in regards to dueling in any way except that it shows that Kun possessed incredibly strong physical strength.


1. Sidious was not a great light saber duelist
2. Kun is superior to the PT besides Yoda
3. Vodo's staff was supposed to be more powerful than a lightsaber, as specifically stated..
4. How are you going to defend against a fighting style you've never seen?

No, Sidious was a pretty damn good saber duelist...

I dunno..I guess the same way ESB ERA LUKE defended from a style he never saw....same as Nejaa Halcyon defended against a style he'd never seen...same as Quinlan Vos defended himself from Vaapad or Yoda and dooku defended themselves from Vaapad, too...

1. He was able to defeat 3 powerful jedi masters in a matter of seconds. He was able to stalemate Yoda with a saber. He was able to trouble Mace Windu.

2. Can you please provide proof, or at least not try to pass off your opinion as fact? Remember, this is in terms of dueling ability. In my eyes, Count Dooku, Yoda, Sidious and Mace Windu were all definitely greater than Kun in regards to saber dueling.

3. And it clearly wasn't, as a lightsaber was able to break through it. Duh...

4. What fighting style would that be lol? A saber staff dueling form? I didn't know that was such an unknown form? And Palpatine did pretty well against Windu's Vaapad, a form he had never seen...

And I'd just like to make it clear, I can see Kun taking this in about 20 seconds tops, I'm not denying that, but I doubt in a matter of seconds.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
No, Sidious was a pretty damn good saber duelist...

I dunno..I guess the same way ESB ERA LUKE defended from a style he never saw....same as Nejaa Halcyon defended against a style he'd never seen...same as Quinlan Vos defended himself from Vaapad or Yoda and dooku defended themselves from Vaapad, too...

Oh yea, ESB Luke did a FANTASTIC job.. Now you're comparing apples and oranges, wonderful. Your point is moot considering Vaapad was a known technique, and Palpatine was not among the best saber duelists, so that puts him below Kun.

He only KILLED the dark jedi using said style...

And no, Vaapad was practiced by three people, all of which helped invent it. And Palpatine is able to square off with Yoda...and according to Gl, you need to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor. Oh, and Palpatine killed three Jedi masters in three seconds

Originally posted by Lightsnake
He only KILLED the dark jedi using said style...

And no, Vaapad was practiced by three people, all of which helped invent it. And Palpatine is able to square off with Yoda...and according to Gl, you need to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor. Oh, and Palpatine killed three Jedi masters in three seconds


OH yes, because those wonderful Jedi masters were truly powerful, really. And whats your point about Yoda/Mace fighting Palpatine? I'm fairly certain Anakin/Dooku could also. Doesn't really put him on par with Kun.

Umm, they're council members who survived Geonosis...id you miss Kit destroying an underwater tank all on his own? As they're on the council, yes indeed they're powerful and the ROTS novelization calls them the best masters left on Coruscant besides Mace as Yoda was gone

And you HAVE to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with Palpatine according to GL, implying they're the only two who could

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Umm, they're council members who survived Geonosis...id you miss Kit destroying an underwater tank all on his own? As they're on the council, yes indeed they're powerful and the ROTS novelization calls them the best masters left on Coruscant besides Mace as Yoda was gone

And you HAVE to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with Palpatine according to GL, implying they're the only two who could

Show me where GL says that... Because GL apparently also stated Anakin was on par with Mace, and Mace and Dooku were supposed to be on par... So that doesn't say much..

Oh, I'd love to hear your source.

And I got that from Nai and Escape, I'll ask Escape for the link and source

That's the problem lightsnake, I offer arguments and instead of you offering arguments, all you get is sources from other people, authors, quotes, etc... Horrible.

How dare I use the man who created Star Wars and provide irrefutable proof...what a terrible man I am

Nobody said you're a terrible person.. I just said that you defeat the purpose of being on this forum and instead of outdebating me with logical arguments, all you do is seek sources from other people.. Kind of like conceding before you start.

Ok, if you're arguing that the sky is blue and someone says it's not do you explain to them the numerous gasses in the atmosphere and why the sky is blue or do you drag them outside and make them look at the sky?

Wow lightsnake, perfect analogy.. No really... Except this forum is used for debating because outside of the authors, nobody knows the truth.. So your point is pretty much moot unless you state that you don't know what color the sky is supposed to be... Ridiculous post.

So why not GET the truth?

because that DEFEATS the purpose of this forum, are you not understanding? This forum exists because we do NOT know what is 100% truth but what is conclusive in the movies/books. That is why WE debate. You are sucking the life out of it because you don't want to enhance your logic and debating skills.

Enlightnment's a great thing, innit?

The hell? Care to say that in english and then explain it? At this point you have zero credibility on this forum for the simple fact that you cannot debate. We can ALL go bombard the author's emails with questions that ease our ability to sleep at night, but we choose to argue logically..

And I choose to win. So, in the end, everyone gets what they want

but you DONT win lol that's what youre failing to understand.. Everytime you have no argument and you resort to the authors, NOBODY gives you credit for that. People come here to DEBATE, so I have no clue why YOURE here..

I just debate in a different manner. Don't like it? Tough

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
You can't deny that he was probably one of the most powerful knights in the series though.

Crado now? I can understand Sylvar, but Crado? The man who doesn't even have enough will to fight Exar Kun?

http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/6868/cradokunboutle4.th.jpg

For "one of the most powerful knights", I don't see why he'd be admitting his inferiority and weak will or cowering in fear:

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/9784/sylvarconfrontsfq2.th.jpg

I'd submit Crado is probably one of the most inferior people in TOTJ. Unless, of course, you are going to explain how he gets tooled every single time he ever enters a fight. The man who is supposedly "one of the most powerful knights" certainly doesn't hold his own self in high regard, so I don't know how you do.

Crado is a spineless worm in the big picture. Hell - even Cay "I get my arm chopped off every comic" Qel-Droma, Tott "Small Fry" Donetta, and Sylvar are far ahead of him. Nomi is leagues ahead of him, and so on. He truly is nothing special other than a mindless pawn of Exar Kun. Nothing more, nothing less.

Anyways, Exar Kun takes this easily. Sith magic that neither Kit Fisto nor Saesee Tinn have seen? Check. Master lightsaber duelist and prodigy? Check. Unique style and unique lightsaber (short hilted double blade)? Check. Sadow's amulets? Check.

Yep, I sure as hell see them lasting any longer than ten seconds at most.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I just debate in a different manner. Don't like it? Tough


You don't debate, period.. That's your problem.. You have zero debating skills, which is why you turn to other people's arguments, sources, emails, authors..

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Crado now? I can understand Sylvar, but Crado? The man who doesn't even have enough will to fight Exar Kun?

http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/6868/cradokunboutle4.th.jpg

For "one of the most powerful knights", I don't see why he'd be admitting his inferiority and weak will or cowering in fear:

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/9784/sylvarconfrontsfq2.th.jpg

I'd submit Crado is probably one of the most inferior people in TOTJ. Unless, of course, you are going to explain how he gets tooled every single time he ever enters a fight. The man who is supposedly "one of the most powerful knights" certainly doesn't hold his own self in high regard, so I don't know how you do.

Crado is a spineless worm in the big picture. Hell - even Cay "I get my arm chopped off every comic" Qel-Droma, Tott "Small Fry" Donetta, and Sylvar are far ahead of him. Nomi is leagues ahead of him, and so on. He truly is nothing special other than a mindless pawn of Exar Kun. Nothing more, nothing less.

Anyways, Exar Kun takes this easily. Sith magic that neither Kit Fisto nor Saesee Tinn have seen? Check. Master lightsaber duelist and prodigy? Check. Unique style and unique lightsaber (short hilted double blade)? Check. Sadow's amulets? Check.

Yep, I sure as hell see them lasting any longer than ten seconds at most.


Well done.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Crado now? I can understand Sylvar, but Crado? The man who doesn't even have enough will to fight Exar Kun?

lol I knew you were going to question this.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/6868/cradokunboutle4.th.jpg

For "one of the most powerful knights", I don't see why he'd be admitting his inferiority and weak will or cowering in fear:

Well as he himself says, there really is no dishonour in losing to Exar Kun, or even getting tooled and humiliated like he did.


Originally posted by Motoko Sama
http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/9784/sylvarconfrontsfq2.th.jpg

I'd submit Crado is probably one of the most inferior people in TOTJ. Unless, of course, you are going to explain how he gets tooled every single time he ever enters a fight. The man who is supposedly "one of the most powerful knights" certainly doesn't hold his own self in high regard, so I don't know how you do.

Crado is a spineless worm in the big picture. Hell - even Cay "I get my arm chopped off every comic" Qel-Droma, Tott "Small Fry" Donetta, and Sylvar are far ahead of him. Nomi is leagues ahead of him, and so on. He truly is nothing special other than a mindless pawn of Exar Kun. Nothing more, nothing less.

Oh I agree with those last points, but it seems that he was in league with Oss Wilum who was claimed to be an 'exceptional' jedi knight and one of the order's most promising students. You have to remember, out of thousands of jedi knights the only one's clearly more powerful were Sylvar, Nomi, Cay and Tott. There were others such as Dace Diath and Oss Wilum who were imo around the same level as him. There were also probably more that didn't feature in the comic (possibly someone like Durron Quel-Droma), but if I were to make a rough estimate, I'd say he was in the top 20, and out of thousands that is pretty impressive. So I don't think it's crazy to consider him one of the most powerful knights at the time, and it certainly doesn't defeat the point I was originally trying to make.

Just to make my point clear, I don't think Crado was crazy powerful or completely uber or anything lol, but I consider the fact that him being in the top (roughly) 20 out of thousands, (maybe even tens of thousands) makes him one of the most powerful jedi knights.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
lol I knew you were going to question this.

Of course I'd question something that's a false claim.



Yes, and that only proves his disworth. He admires Exar Kun, hence why he considered it an honor practically.



Really now? When we haven't even seen him kill/take out anybody? Even Oss Willum at least killing one or two mercenaries puts him above Crado, who we haven't seen do a thing. Other than praise and fail Exar continuously, of course.



How is he in the top 20 when Exar only converted a handful of padawans at most? And out of those padawans, they actually did something (unlike Crado) - kill Jedi Masters.

We haven't even seen anyone else (the other thousands Jedi Knights that were around). Does this mean that because we don't see them, that they are nonexistant/aren't as good as Crado by default? Not at all.

He's the last on the list out of everyone we have seen. How does this make him "one of the most powerful"? You say out of thousands, he must be better than everyone else (assuming you're saying this because we see him). I say: Proof? You can't claim he's better than the thousands we didn't see by default, especially considering he hasn't done jack except:

1.) Fail Exar Kun.
2.) Get his ass beaten.
3.) Die.

Without reading ANY of that I can use common sense and the comics book to state that Crado was a weak, naive, tool. He had absolutely nothing to offer, he showed absolutely nothing, and I think it was Sama who said it, he is the most worthless character next to C3PO

On the contrary, C-3P0 seems to be more useful than Crado.

Information wise, C3PO is about the only SW character Crado can take in a duel.

It's heavily implied and indicated however that he was on their level. I think it's made perfectly clear at one point that he was Exar Kun's most powerful fallen jedi. He was also Vodo's student, he can't have been too bad, I mean why would Vodo train Crado if he was so terrible, when he was already training Exar Kun and Sylvar? There is also the fact that Vodo was a great teacher and it would be unlikely that he would produce such a poor student. However I will try to make a stronger argument by reading through some fo the comics again.

'Yes, and that only proves his disworth. He admires Exar Kun, hence why he considered it an honor practically.'

He admired Exar Kun for a reason.

'We haven't even seen anyone else (the other thousands Jedi Knights that were around). Does this mean that because we don't see them, that they are nonexistant/aren't as good as Crado by default? Not at all.'

I already made it perfectly clear that I have taken this into account.

'How is he in the top 20 when Exar only converted a handful of padawans at most? And out of those padawans, they actually did something (unlike Crado) - kill Jedi Masters.'

I don't get what you mean here. Could you expand?

Holy shit what?! On their level? Exar Kun's most powerful fallen Jedi? What exactly are you smoking?

It's implied in the dialogue. As I just said, I will read through some of the comics again so I can actually support what I said.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Holy shit what?! On their level? Exar Kun's most powerful fallen Jedi? What exactly are you smoking?

lol just so you know, I do not include Ulic in that category. I'm specifically referring to the jedi that Exar Kun himself turned.

It is implied in the dialogue? Ok lightsnake.. Anything else?

Terrible analogy td, in-universe dialogue and out-of-universe factual statements are two very different things.

No, the analogy was perfect, it was related to the fact where you couldn't make an argument

I ask for proof. Since this assertions begs for it.



I ask for proof. Since this assertions begs for it.



By this logic all Jedi younglings must be good because they were taught by Yoda, who taught Dooku. Ridiculous point, it's a logical fallacy. So because character X produced characters Y and Z, character Q must be good?

Again, by your logic, every student Vodo ever produced must be good. Unless you can prove that, then I will treat this point as defeat.



Logical fallacy, appeal to probability. Simply because we see Vodo produce two capable students, all his students are good? We can assume Lumiya was a good teacher because of Carnor Jax, however, her other apprentice (Flint) sucked.

There goes your logic.



Good. I'd suggest you do that.



Irrelevant. The fact that he doesn't have a strong will, or actually doubts his own talents tells me that he clearly isn't anything special, or the best of the rest (the other thousands).



As I said: Good. I'd suggest you do that.



It's pretty irrelevant at this point. But if you are going to make a claim that I think you will, it will become relevant, ergo the need for me to elaborate upon. So you can just ignore this, I suppose.

Firstly, lightsnake is a great debater.

Secondly that analogy would have been valid if we had used the same style of argument, yet we didn't. Mine was in-universe dialogue while his is out-of-universe factual statements - very different.

And honestly, I wasn't so much as making an argument than voicing an opinion. Either way my original point still remains, and is actually strengthened if my opinion about Crado was wrong. But it doesn't matter, this thread has gone completely off-topic so let's drop this pointless discussion.

'By this logic all Jedi younglings must be good because they were taught by Yoda, who taught Dooku. Ridiculous point, it's a logical fallacy. So because character X produced characters Y and Z, character Q must be good?'

Hardly a logical fallacy. In fact if anyone's showing signs of illogical thinking in this instance, it's you, because that analogy is completely invalid. There is a big difference between teaching your apprentices and devoting much of your life into their training, and teaching a group in a classroom situation.

'Again, by your logic, every student Vodo ever produced must be good. Unless you can prove that, then I will treat this point as defeat.'

My point is not defeated. It's extremely unlikely that Vodo would train a third student when he was already training two student who are 100X more powerful than the third. I mean it would be completely foolish to do so, because when teaching in very small groups like that (and this applies to anything) it is almost completely needed that all the students are roughly on the same level otherwise for instance the weaker students would be holding the stronger ones back etc. My point is that Exar Kun (goes without saying) and Sylvar were both exceptional so it would make sense that Crado was too.

'Irrelevant. The fact that he doesn't have a strong will, or actually doubts his own talents tells me that he clearly isn't anything special, or the best of the rest (the other thousands).'

Only an idiot wouldn't doubt their abilities against Exar Kun.

Anyway I just want to make clear that this is just an opinion. And it's not like there are even qualities about Crado that would attract fanboys or fonboyish views. He's actually a pretty lame character, so believe me: when I say that he was imo one of the most promising knights, it's based on things which I picked up from the comic.

Anyway I consider this debate over.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
And honestly, I wasn't so much as making an argument than voicing an opinion. Either way my original point still remains, and is actually strengthened if my opinion about Crado was wrong. But it doesn't matter, this thread has gone completely off-topic so let's drop this pointless discussion.

Over? Hardly.. Perhaps you should read Sama's points again.

I have answered every one correctly. I have just failed to provide concrete evidence, and I would put more effort into doing so if this was firstly, an argument and not just an opinion which really holds no relevance to the current topic and secondly, one which I actually cared about. There was really no need for a debate to have risen, it seems that Mokoto just holds a grudge because I defeated her in the other debate.

You defeated her where exactly? And no, the point of posting is for an argument dude.... WHy even offer an opinion? And I highly doubt Sama cares

This thread is riduculous. ROTS Sidious pwnd these 2 and Agen Kolar while fendinf off Mace Windu in nine seconds, and Kun (without the amulent) isn't to far behind ROTS Sidious so he should be able to pwn this duo in nine seconds easily, since he doesn't have to worry about Agen and Mace, too, like Sidious did. So nine seconds or less, I say he pwns them in 5.

Originally posted by darthsith19
This thread is riduculous. ROTS Sidious pwnd these 2 and Agen Kolar while fendinf off Mace Windu in nine seconds, and Kun (without the amulent) isn't to far behind ROTS Sidious so he should be able to pwn this duo in nine seconds easily, since he doesn't have to worry about Agen and Mace, too, like Sidious did. So nine seconds or less, I say he pwns them in 5.


The hell? Since when do we grade Kun without the amulet exactly? Unless you're referring to Kun as a padawan being close to ROTS Sidious, it makes no sense. Kun at his peak is superior to ROTS at LEAST in saber combat. And how are you measuring the time fram exactly? Very interesting how you came up with all of this.

Wait, when Kun fought Vodo he didn't have his amulent yet, did he?

Yes, him and Ulic received Sadow's amulet in Dark Lords of the Sith, an entire series before his confrontation with Vodo in The Sith War...his amulet can be seen clearly in this picture:

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/825/vodoconfrontyj5.th.jpg

Yes indeed

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
You didn't answer every one correctly actually (more incorrectly, hence me pointing out fallacies, etc.). And "failing to provide concrete evidence" means you have lost your case. Simple as that. And I would urge you to provide evidence if, in fact, it existed; however, it doesn't.

And the reason for the debate to actually be risen is simple: it's my job to point out false claims, and actually correct said claims. So whatever you think my reasonings behind this were, are incorrect; of course that's the par of what I expect from you.

You really didn't defeat me. Because "defeating me" would've included actually proving your point, and you (singular) *think* (not fact) you proved it.

A lie repeated often enough does not become the truth.

What you just said in that paragraph is you accusing me of a grudge, because I proved you wrong. You having an elitist attitude, of course, won't allow someone to prove you wrong, but whatever...

Listen Mokoto, you're not IKC so enough with this talk about fallacies, especially considering you have been wrong in pointing them out each time. I have already admitted that I do not have enough concrete evidence on Crado to prove my claims, it's just my opinion however I see no problem whatsoever with voicing my opinion (whether incorrect, unsupported etc.) when it really has no basis in the topic onhand, and the fact that you blew it completely out of proportion shows that you hold a grudge. This was obvious when I defeated you in the other debate. Instead of continuing, you knew you had lost and decided to challenge me to another debate as you clearly had something to prove. I declined your offer, and you clearly have been looking for any excuse to get in a debate with since. And the reason I continued posting was because a few of your rebuttals were quite frankly wrong and fallacious themselves and I was just pointing that out to you.

You wanted people (Lightsnake) to agree with you. I simply replied to what your initial post was, and corrected your claim:

You can't deny that he was probably one of the most powerful knights in the series though.

That was you making a claim that he was "probably one of the most powerful" and that "you can't deny it" - then I responded to that basically saying "How do you figure that exactly?" and showing Crado sucks and denying it (or actually disproving your theory rather). Then you took it upon yourself to reply, in which you didn't have to, and I replied to that because it was wrong (had statements/thoughts that were wrong), and so on and so forth.



Sorry, but my argument was actually sound. You say it is fallacious, but cannot point them out nor respond to them with logical reasoning. Your argument (and that's what it was an argument) was full of fallacies, and really - since when do you need to have the username "IKC" to post fallacies? Is that the standard now?

GM, you've provided your opinion and pure speculation while Sama has provided a complete argument, so how are you going to say that you've proven her wrong? Last time I checked, fact>opinion. And there are indeed a lot of logical fallacies that you are committing.

Exactly. Facts supported by the comic > GM's baseless speculation. Logic supported by the comic > GM's baseless speculation. Really the only thing he does is say "No, I proved you wrong because even though my argument is devoid of any logic, I pwned you" and claim that I committed fallacies, no logic in my claims, despite me using scans from the comic, and actually having a factual argument for my side.

Whatever. Fine, I lose. There's no dishounour in that. It was a pretty hard topic for me to argue. Anyway the score's 1-1 between us now Mokoto right ? However I really didn't go by any logical fallacies in that debate, and while the analogy that I used was quite silly, it was still valid. And there were instances where you used illogical thinking too Mokoto. I've already shown you which ones.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
Whatever. Fine, I lose. There's no dishounour in that.

You sound like Crado...

While it's true there's no dishonor losing to me, if you were to lose to someone like...Numan or Blak Fox (or even Hokage), there IS dishonor. Thankfully all of them are banned though.

And just to go back on topic: Exar Kun decimates them in about .43 seconds (time it takes to lift his hand) if he decides to use the Force. If he decides to use a lightsaber, it will take 4.6 seconds (2.5 seconds to initiate them, 2.1 seconds to kill them). Any problems?

Actually I did that on purpose.
Exar Kun can't use the force...

.........

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
.........

?

He meant offensive force powers in this fight.

That's what I meant too.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
That's the problem lightsnake, I offer arguments and instead of you offering arguments, all you get is sources from other people, authors, quotes, etc... Horrible.

The Making of Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith book confirms Lightsnake.

One of the producers asked why Mace "brought the B-team to arrest Sidious" in response to how easily the three of them died. And, Lucas responded that you have to be Yoda or Mace to compete with the Emperor.

Not Anakin, Dooku, Assaj, Depa, or anyone else.

Anyways, Kun obliterates these two.

Escape, what was your previous comment relevant to?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Escape, what was your previous comment relevant to?

You and Lightsnake were arguing on the first page about how only "Yoda and Mace" can compete with Palpatine. He confirmed it; you denied it. I just proved it.

Where did I deny it?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Show me where GL says that... Because GL apparently also stated Anakin was on par with Mace, and Mace and Dooku were supposed to be on par... So that doesn't say much..

Here.

That was a statement regarding saber combat.. We've had some of you on this forum confirm that Dooku and Anakin were on par with Sidious in saber abilities.

Big deal. Wanna argue with Lucas?

Lightsnake, it was my personal opinion, you still lost the argument as usual.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
That was a statement regarding saber combat.. We've had some of you on this forum confirm that Dooku and Anakin were on par with Sidious in saber abilities.

I want to make this absolutely clear to you. Your argument makes absolutely no sense.

Sidious is either tied for first in line with Yoda or is a close second, but is not a "good lightsaber duelist"?

Extremely poor logic.

Sidious's lightsaber abilities are vague. I will not get into the Sidious vs. Mace issue, but let me reiterate that Windu did not simply swing three times and put Sidious on his ass.

Furthermore, take into consideration that Palpatine killed Windu's three companions whilst fending him off. This one extremely vague and extremely convenient battle doesn't necessarily indicate that Windu is above and beyond Palpatine.

What logic is poor here exactly? The fact that Mace is above Sidious in saber combat, because he beat him? Or are you going to tell me that Mace used shatterpoint to defeat Sidious too?

*Reads ROTS novelization*
What was the quote...?
"This may have gone oin forever....if Vaapad was Mace's only gift."

Lightsnake, your point about Mace not using his form was defeated, please stop bothering with it.

Trying to argue against canon, again? No, you know something? I'm not gonna stop bothering with it.

Open up the ROTS novelization and find the description of the Mace vs. Palpatine fight. Now, the official LFL approved version states Mace's shatterpoint ability allowed him to overcome their stalemate

Great, yet in the movie we see him use the only form that he has been known to use, and beat Palpatine, so shut up about it. Unless of course Obiwan doesn't soresu, Dooku doesn't use Makashi, Yoda doesn't use Ataru. Your point is moot.

Oh, right, you even know what the shatterpoint IS?

I have it but I have not read it. What is your point exactly? Mace beat Sidious, period.

Mace's shatterpoint ability is finding a flaw in anything: Someone's technique, their guard, a war...and exploiting it brings it down.

In other words, until Mace used said ability, as we know from Mace's point of view in the ROTS novel, he was dead even in saber combat with Palpatine on that ground

Dead even? It didn't look dead even lightsnake? It looked like Mace had the advantage the entire time. And when does he use this awesome ability? Either way, he won, case closed.

According to Mace's POV, he was stalemating Palpatine until he took advantage of the shatterpoint ability. I trust Mace's interpretation more than yours

And I trust the movie more than I trust your interpretation, sorry.

This is just a fun example of someone saying "What I think is canon!"

Sorry! ROTS novelization says otherwise from Mace's POV

Sorry! The movie shows Mace on the offensive keeping a straight face, while Sidious is making all these wonderful gestures.. Movie>Book, you lose.. And the fact that you keep droning on about how Sidious lost is irrelevant. Mace>Sidious in saber combat.

Really now? so Sidious doesn't force Mace back? And Mace always keeps a poker face when fighting.

Book>You, you lose

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Really now? so Sidious doesn't force Mace back? And Mace always keeps a poker face when fighting.

Book>You, you lose


Yes, Mace always keeps a poker face when fighting..Again.. Logic>your opinion>your fanboyism

The Movie>the Book
Ergo, you lose yet another argument.

And the movie doesn't contradcit the book at all. Y'know, except in your head.

Oh of course, this coming from the man who thinks Mace always keeps a straight face. The movie also shows Mace using his technique, and shows nothing about "shatterpoint". So as my original point goes. Mace is superior to Sidious in saber combat.. So, pwned.

Read Shatterpoint...few had ever seen Mace's expression alter within YEARS of knowing him.

and y'know, shatterpoint is a force ability from Mace's perception...it's not something visible. What Yoda not meditate because we don't 'see' him chatting with Qui-gon?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Read Shatterpoint...few had ever seen Mace's expression alter within YEARS of knowing him.

and y'know, shatterpoint is a force ability from Mace's perception...it's not something visible. What Yoda not meditate because we don't 'see' him chatting with Qui-gon?


Are you blind? Mace>Sidious in saber combat.. The end. Why are you arguing a losing debate?

Mace>Sidious, but sidious is able to go toe to toe with Yoda?

Ever hear of the Any Given Sunday rule? A loss hardly means someone's automatically inferior...unless you're trying to claim Mace>Yoda

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Mace>Sidious, but sidious is able to go toe to toe with Yoda?

Ever hear of the Any Given Sunday rule? A loss hardly means someone's automatically inferior...unless you're trying to claim Mace>Yoda


Yes, because in the novel I believe Yoda disarmed Sidious.. So yes, Sidious is able to go toe for toe with Yoda on an unfair advantage. And it's more than like that Mace>Yoda in saber abilities. And no, you logic doesn't work just because you're a sidious fan boy. With your logic I can state that Dooku>Anakin, Maul>Obiwan, Malak>Revan, Vodo>Kun. Your logic is ridiculous and is pretty much destroyed instantly.

Um, no, that never in the novel...and even before they get on the platform, they're going at it evenly.

If Mace>Yoda in saber abilities, why is Yoda stated to be the best saber duelist and has always defeated Mace when they've dueled?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Um, no, that never in the novel...and even before they get on the platform, they're going at it evenly.

If Mace>Yoda in saber abilities, why is Yoda stated to be the best saber duelist and has always defeated Mace when they've dueled?


I said it is possible that Mace=Yoda in saber abilities. And the fact that Mace defeated Sidious, and Yoda stalemated him on even ground, is just that. Your A>B>C arguments don't work.

Just goes to show that the three are on par in abilities

Or that Mace>superior to Sidious in saber combat. We know Sidious is superior to Mace in force abilities, and we don't need a fight to tel us that. Some things are obvious, including Mace's superiority over Sidious in saber combat.

Oh right, because Mace was able to stop Sidious was killing three other Jedi and defeated him effortlessly in two seconds

LOL.. Nice logic lightsnake, but in reality, Mace beating Sidious is what makes him superior to Sidious, not his inability to stop Sidious killing the other 3 useless Jedi, because obviously he didn't die himself. Nice misdirection

So, is Desann superior to Luke? Is Kueller superior to Luke? Leia superior to Beldorian? is Jaina superior to Tsavong Lah? Is Nelani Dinn superior to Lumiya?

And 'useless' Jedi? Those were only three of the best Jedu duelists the order'd ever seen, nice try.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
So, is Desann superior to Luke? Is Kueller superior to Luke? Leia superior to Beldorian? is Jaina superior to Tsavong Lah? Is Nelani Dinn superior to Lumiya?

And 'useless' Jedi? Those were only three of the best Jedu duelists the order'd ever seen, nice try.


What exactly did you just explain? Mace overpowered Sidious, Mace clearly showed he was superior to Sidious in lightsaber combat, there is absolutely NOTHING that suggests otherwise. Obiwan defeated Anakin but we know Anakin was more powerful because he was pretty much in control, therefore Your proof is irrelevant.

No, they were even until Mace threw the kick. The fact that they were having quite the fight beforehand, suggests they're on par

No, the fact that Mace got that kick in suggests he beat him and is more than likely superior to him. So Anakin and Dooku are equal until Anakin decapitated him? Hmmm

Irrelevant misdirection. On skills alone, they were equal until Mace used his shatterpoint ability.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Irrelevant misdirection. On skills alone, they were equal until Mace used his shatterpoint ability.


Do you understand the concept of irrelevant misdirection or do you use it because you've seen me use it? My point wasn't irrelevant because it was in regards to your "any given sunday" logic. You can use all the excuses that you want, whether if was Mace's Vaapad or "shatterpoint", but he still proved to be superior to Sidious on saber combat.

The movie was inconclusive as to what exactly Mace used to eventually overcome Palpatine during the lightsaber duel. The novelization counts as a canon source - as does the LFL approval.

Therefore, DS, it is a fact that Mace required the use of the Shatterpoint ability to overcome Palpatine in his lightsaber duel. Furthermore, as you yourself apparently have little knowledge about that particular ability, stop pretending to be an expert on it.

Without that shatterpoint ability, it is inconclusive to determine who would have overcame who in that duel, especially when we have already racked up evidence that indicates that Palpatine may have been manipulating the entire scene.

a. Sidious managed to destroy the other three compatriots, who - as Lightsnake has already restlessly argued - were some of the Jedi Order's greatest swordsmen - whilst fending off Windu.

As to the ease in which they lost, the answer is very simple. As Lucas has confirmed, you need to be either Yoda or Mace Windu to compete with Palpatine. Now, DS, I want that to sink in.

b. Mace certainly did not seem to have control of the entire fight, as I recall. Palpatine put Mace on the defensive early on, forcing him out of the chamber and into the public office.

However...

I disagree with Lightsnake on one issue. The kick was a valid maneuver, as this simply wasn't a fencing match. It was a fight to the death. However, if we're having a gun fight, and I deck you with my fist, that doesn't make me the better shooter. Just the better fighter.

As for the other mini-issues:

a. Dooku vs. Anakin.

Remember a few things. Lucas, the script, the commentary, and several other sources state that Anakin was just superior - as does Palpatine himself in the movie. However, Anakin isn't leagues above him. Furthermore, what solidifies this victory is that before Anakin used physical force, he was dominating the last part of the fight.

b. Maul vs. Obi-Wan

Your point is moot because Maul did possess superior lightsaber and fighting abilities. To make it plain, he caught Maul off guard with the assistance of a bit of luck.

c. Malak vs. Revan

I assume you refer to when Malak used his ship to betray Revan. Hardly a worthy source. Malak required a ship to do it while Revan was preoccupied with the Jedi. Hardly a "duel".

And, finally -

Yoda, Sidious, and Mace are the three top dogs of the PT. Lucas's comment that "only Yoda and Mace can compete with the Emperor" suggests that all are roughly on par, and the strongest of their time.

Escape, I hope you're not actually thinking that Sidious manipulated the entire fight. It specifically states in the ROTS novel that Sidious was OVERPOWERED by Mace. This little rumor is nothing more than speculation on part of Sidious fanboys.

And I never argued about shatterpoint or whatever the hell it is, I argued that Mace won the fight clearly.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Escape, I hope you're not actually thinking that Sidious manipulated the entire fight. It specifically states in the ROTS novel that Sidious was OVERPOWERED by Mace. This little rumor is nothing more than speculation on part of Sidious fanboys.

And I never argued about shatterpoint or whatever the hell it is, I argued that Mace won the fight clearly.

I never said that I thought it. I said that there is evidence to support it. Which there is. I'll be back later.

Where is that evidence? The ROTS novel clearly states that he was overpowered? Wouldn't that disprove the 'evidence'?

About Palpatine confirming that Anakin was more powerful than Dooku, when he says 'far younger and far more powerful', he might be talking about potential.

No, it isn't stated in the novel at all...the novel offers evidence to both sides

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Where is that evidence? The ROTS novel clearly states that he was overpowered? Wouldn't that disprove the 'evidence'?

a. The RotS novel never states that.

b. If Sidious restrained himself in his fight with Mace, then - still, by literary definition - he was overpowered. If I get in a fight with Lightsnake here, but just toy with him, and he manages to knock my ass to the ground - he still overpowered me.

I'll be back later to provide the actual evidence I've collected. In the meantime, I'll be watching BloodRayne and The Matador.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
About Palpatine confirming that Anakin was more powerful than Dooku, when he says 'far younger and far more powerful', he might be talking about potential.

Yes. But he doesn't state potential.

Furthermore, Lucas himself confirmed that Sidious was making his ultimate decision based on Anakin's duel with Dooku. If Anakin lost, Sidious would maintain Dooku as an apprentice and either let Anakin die, or choose to test him at a later time.

But he won.

Uh.. Bloodrayne? Ok, well if you want to waste your time on the worst movie made ok. But I would really love to see this evidence, as the evidence so far points to the fact that Mace beat him fairly.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Uh.. Bloodrayne? Ok, well if you want to waste your time on the worst movie made ok. But I would really love to see this evidence, as the evidence so far points to the fact that Mace beat him fairly.

Big fan of the games... Gotta see the movie. Unspoken rule.

Originally posted by Escape81
I'll be back later to provide the actual evidence I've collected. In the meantime, I'll be watching BloodRayne and The Matador.

You'll have to tell me how BloodRayne is! I've never watched it, but heard it sucks, lol. Sha Po Lang is what you all should be watching. Greatest martial arts movie of this generation I tell you.

Damn, you guys all must love this martial arts, anime, bad movie deal thingy.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Damn, you guys all must love this martial arts, anime, bad movie deal thingy.

Huh? Sha Po Lang is more than just martial arts, it's freaking genius! It's the best martial arts movie of the 2000's. And anime? I'm not a avid fan of anime, at least not that big.

Back on topic: I change my answer to the topic. Exar Kun using a lightsaber decimates Saesee and Agen within .7 seconds.

You know, there really isn't that much evidence which would suggest that Exar Kun would win easily against these opponents in a pure lightsaber duel. I belive that he would win pretty easily, but much of that is my opinion. What real proof is there that Exar Kun would be able to do this in about 5 seconds?

oy