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Combatants: Ulic Qel Droma as of The Sith War (before being stripped) versus Darth Revan as seen at the end of KOTOR.

Setting: Theed Central Hanger - where Maul first engaged Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan in combat.

As I always say: skimmed through searches, could've been done before - yadayada.

Oh no you didn't Sama. Ok well in terms of saber combat, I would probably have to give it to Ulic just for the simple fact that he stalemated Kun(already a huge feat), and did the same with Sylvar while not having the force. Now in terms of force abilities, I guess Revan showed a little more(although most of it was gameplay), while Ulic didn't seem to be anything more than a saber warrior.. Tough one..Is Revan wearing his Robes or the Starforge Robes? If so Ulic is going DOWN!

What's so great about the SF robes? It's all about the Quel-Droma robes. Those are the robes that he wore when he defeated Malak.

Anyways, Ulic never really impressed me. Neither did Exar Kun. Or Vodo.

Ulic's best feat imo was stalemating Sylvar in a saber duel while cut off from the force and out of practice. imo, he was the greatest duelist of his era. However that just doesn't put him above Revan imo.

Revan just seems too powerful. Darth Sion seems to admit complete enferiority to Revan. Revan was stated to have battle precognition on the level of such Echani that could predict the outcomes of wars. He was able to progress through an entire fortress full of dark jedi, sith soldiers and advanced battle droids (granted he had help) yet was still able to defeat Darth Malak, who at the time was powered by the SF and eight jedi.

And while certain aspects of Darth Revan are unknown, it seems that he naturally must have grown extremely powerful after having studied from and excavated Malachor V and Korriban.

Ulic easily. Nebaris...I suggest you look up the old "Exar Kun vs Revan" thread.

The thing is: IKC was an incredible debator but was also a very big fanboy of Kun and Ulic, so while he may have made a very strong and convincing case, that doesn't make it so.

From looking at old threads IKC seemed to focus more on pointing on logical fallacies than anything else, not really impressive.. And Flamboyant4life, thank you for offering your argument. It was truly rich.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Oh no you didn't Sama.

Oh yes! Oh yes I did, indeed.

As for my thoughts, I'd say Ulic wins in an alright match, I suppose. I'd say Ulic's win here is definite. He did stalemate Exar Kun:

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/2698/ulickunmastersbn4.th.jpg

And this is Exar when he had already gotten his Sith Amulet by this point (as had Ulic), and had already showed us what the amulet is capable of (disintegrating Massassi, blasting through a Sith Wyrm and temple rock, and destroyed Nadd). Exar had also studied under Nadd's spirit, and taken several scrolls from his tomb. As well, he'd already gotten Sadow's teachings, and also made the sphere that trapped the Massassi and drained their life energies.

As well, he was described as master lightsaber duelist, but enough about his stalemate of Exar Kun (who, at that point, I'd put above Malak and the SF anyways).

He was also the only Jedi out of his party to withstand King Ommin's darkside energies (that consumed Arca, and disrupted Nomi):

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/7298/energyulicdh1.th.jpg

And he also killed Warb Null, who cut off Cay's arm, and apparently has powers that disrupt the Jedi train of thought or something:

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/3189/ulickillsrb8.th.jpg

As well, he also owned the Beast Riders who had weapons described twice as "very powerful", and owned the beasts of Dxun:

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/5357/morethanamatchim4.th.jpg



Ulic does have a "grasp over the Force that is great" (described as such when he battles Mandalore) though.

Either way though, Ulic wins.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
Anyways, Ulic never really impressed me. Neither did Exar Kun. Or Vodo.

No one impresses you except people who have unknown events surrounding their feats!



Nothing puts anybody over Revan in your opinion, fanboy.



Really? What has he done that's for sure absolute exactly? Oh? Nothing? Yes, I could argue like you, and say that Ulic just seems too powerful of course.



Quote? When the hell has Sion even seen Revan? Either way, doesn't matter. Fallible third party character; as well Sion was thrown around like a ragdoll by Nihilus, and walked away limping like a dog.



But couldn't see Malak pwning his ship?



Gameplay factor, doesn't matter. How many did Revan defeat? Did he just stand back and watch? You can't say for sure, so don't say it at all.



I'll correct that statement: Yet was able to defeat Darth Malak in circumstances unknown, who - at the time - was powered by the unsubstantiated, unquantified, unspecified Star Forge, and could drain life from Jedi.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
From looking at old threads IKC seemed to focus more on pointing on logical fallacies than anything else, not really impressive..

"Focus more on fallacies"? Perhaps you didn't read the 'Ulic and Exar vs Sidious and Dooku' thread? He focused on logical deductions, scans, valid proof, etc.

Sama, you do have to take into account that Kun didn't develop his new style/saber yet, so Kun didn't reach his peak in terms of saber combat. That of course somewhat diminishes Ulic's feat of stalemating. And if this is a saber battle, Ulic wins, if it's a force battle, Revan wins. If it's a mixture, I think it could go either way.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Sama, you do have to take into account that Kun didn't develop his new style/saber yet, so Kun didn't reach his peak in terms of saber combat.

And? What style was Kun using exactly when he defeated Ulic again? He'd already been training under Nadd. And within the same year apparently he was described as being a "master lightsaber duelist".



Whatever you want to think. Ulic also held off an anger prone Sylvar, who was bent on killing Ulic and Exar Kun for the loss of Crado while being cut off from the Force. Just so you know, the Force increases saber proficiency as well.



You'd, of course, have to prove that Revan > Ulic in the Force first since you made the assertion. This battle is anything goes, I'm inclined to believe Ulic's Force defenses are good enough, and he is also in possession of Sadow's amulet (which put Cay and Nomi on their ass).

Was Ulic's amulent just like Kun's?

Read through this: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=332187

I'm too tired to make my own argument.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Was Ulic's amulent just like Kun's?

Apparently so, since it was part of Sadow's twin set of amulets. Though, I don't believe Ulic has the same proficiency over the amulet as Kun does.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
Read through this: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=332187

I'm too tired to make my own argument.

What's this bullshit? Wow, Nebaris, you gave me a versus thread from over a year ago! I could be just like you, and be a moronic imbecile and say look here:

Nebaris = Fail

"I'm too tired of owning your ridiculous ass."

Please.

Nebaris, you gave me some stupid thread from ages ago, where people didn't even have their facts straight (and apparently still don't - as I can see from what you give).

Accidental double.

Wait when did Kun defeat him the first time, to prompt you to say he defeated him again.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Wait when did Kun defeat him the first time, to prompt you to say he defeated him again.

What? I'm assuming you're referring to this:

And? What style was Kun using exactly when he defeated Ulic again?

The "again" is simply a "refresh my memory" substitute.

Oh, sexy.. Ok... Well Ulic is the superior saber master, but not force user.

And I suppose you're going to prove that, yes?

Yea i'm doing something give me time.. Give me tiiiime..

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
Read through this: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=332187

I'm too tired to make my own argument.

No, the Exar Kun vs Darth Revan thread where Illustrious owns Lightsnake.

That was a good read

'Gameplay factor, doesn't matter. How many did Revan defeat? Did he just stand back and watch? You can't say for sure, so don't say it at all.'

I may not be able to say for sure, but that doesn't mean that I shouldn't say it at all. It's obvious that Revan had to at least kill dozens of dark jedi, and even more sith soldiers and advanced battle droids, and if I were to make a guess, I'd say he himself likely killed a magority of the dark jedi, advanced battle droids and sith soldiers. He then was able to fend off the attacks of Bastilla powered up by the SF to an extent and turn her to the light, and defeat a SF powered Darth Malak. That is much better than anything Ulic did imo. It shows that Revan must have been an extremely capable warrior.

'I'll correct that statement: Yet was able to defeat Darth Malak in circumstances unknown, who - at the time - was powered by the unsubstantiated, unquantified, unspecified Star Forge, and could drain life from Jedi.'

Malak actually states that perhaps if Revan had learnt how to fully control the SF, he might have become invincible. Bastilla talks about becoming much more powerful, throught the dark side and SF, and sparks from the SF fly into her and power her up. The power of the SF is in no way unsubstantiated.

No, Motoko is correct. It doesn't state specifics on how the Star Forge supposedly empowers another Force user. Furthermore, they may have been referring to the Forge's ability to create massive fleets.

I recall many Imperial commanders stating that "with the power of the Death Star", the Empire would be invincible. As well as the Emperor himself, though - in both cases - neither were born out to be the truth.

It makes more sense that they were all referring to the Forge's true ability, the one where it could create massive starfleets.

Originally posted by Escape81
No, Motoko is correct. It doesn't state specifics on how the Star Forge supposedly empowers another Force user. Furthermore, they may have been referring to the Forge's ability to create massive fleets.

I recall many Imperial commanders stating that "with the power of the Death Star", the Empire would be invincible. As well as the Emperor himself, though - in both cases - neither were born out to be the truth.

It makes more sense that they were all referring to the Forge's true ability, the one where it could create massive starfleets.

No, she was wrong because she said that it was unsubstantiated. As an 'English whizkid', I assume you know what that means.

And seriously dude, you couldn't be more wrong. Revan knew about the SF's ability to create ships back when he was the DL. That destroys your whole argument, as Malak states that perhaps if Revan were to have learnt how to fully control the SF's ability, he might have become invincible. Therefor he must be talking about something that Revan didn't know about when he was the DL, which would rule out the SF's ability to make ships.

It's also clear that Malak is talking about how the SF powers up the individual controlling it, as he makes that the TRUE power of the SF was being able to drain the life out of jedi to make you stronger...

Originally posted by Escape81
No, Motoko is correct. It doesn't state specifics on how the Star Forge supposedly empowers another Force user. Furthermore, they may have been referring to the Forge's ability to create massive fleets.

I recall many Imperial commanders stating that "with the power of the Death Star", the Empire would be invincible. As well as the Emperor himself, though - in both cases - neither were born out to be the truth.

It makes more sense that they were all referring to the Forge's true ability, the one where it could create massive starfleets.


Escape, how can you compare the death star to something that is a tool of the dark side that DOES increase your power. Unless of course Malak himself is a fallible 3rd party character too. I would need to get you specific quotes but they do range from him saying that the star forge has made him exceedingly powerful, and "I have become more powerful than you have" or "while you were dark lord".

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
No, she was wrong because she said that it was unsubstantiated.

No, she was right. How powerful does the Star Forge make you? By what margin does it increase your power?

You can't make any kind of accurate statement relating to how much power the Star Forge grants to it's users without relying on speculation or unsubstantiated assumptions.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Escape, how can you compare the death star to something that is a tool of the dark side that DOES increase your power. Unless of course Malak himself is a fallible 3rd party character too. I would need to get you specific quotes but they do range from him saying that the star forge has made him exceedingly powerful, and "I have become more powerful than you have" or "while you were dark lord".

I must replay my KotoR. I wasn't aware that the Star Forge was designed to be a tool of the dark side. I was under the assumption that it was a technological juggernaut that could be controlled by Force users.

Furthermore, if I may borrow an argument... "power" is ambiguous. The same context was used with the Death Star that was used with the Star Forge.

Lastly, you'd think that this super-Malak wouldn't require regeneration from draining the bodies from others.

Originally posted by Swirly Girl
No, she was right. How powerful does the Star Forge make you? By what margin does it increase your power?

You can't make any kind of accurate statement relating to how much power the Star Forge grants to it's users without relying on speculation or unsubstantiated assumptions.

Motoko + Swirly Girl + Cap'n Rex + Darth Sexy (when he's good) + Nai (he doesn't know it yet...) are my Dark Side adepts. Why? They love me.

Originally posted by Escape81
I must replay my KotoR. I wasn't aware that the Star Forge was designed to be a tool of the dark side. I was under the assumption that it was a technological juggernaut that could be controlled by Force users.

Furthermore, if I may borrow an argument... "power" is ambiguous. The same context was used with the Death Star that was used with the Star Forge.

Lastly, you'd think that this super-Malak wouldn't require regeneration from draining the bodies from others.


Escape, I forget what level it is, I think it's either on Kashyyk or on the planet on the star forge system where one of the Rakatans says "It is a tool of the dark side". And what do you mean "You'd think this super Malak wouldn't require draining the bodies"? That just shows how powerful Revan was, nothing more nothing less.

Originally posted by Swirly Girl
No, she was right. How powerful does the Star Forge make you? By what margin does it increase your power?

You can't make any kind of accurate statement relating to how much power the Star Forge grants to it's users without relying on speculation or unsubstantiated assumptions.

No, she was wrong because she desciribed it as being 'powered by the unsubstantiated Star Forge', which is clearly wrong because the idea that the SF is able to power up the individial using it is supported. I wasn't disputing the fact that it was unquantified or whatever.

And Sexy is right in this instance, I mean the SF is even described as living at one point; there's a lot more to it than the Death Star.

Stop calling me td, jesus christ.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Stop calling me td, jesus christ.

I didn't call you td. God, you're so paranoid.

Lol, "edited by Nebaris"..

I would say Darth Revan takes this battle.

He defeated a "Star Forge" empowered Malak in an "epic duel". To give you an idea, the Star Forge was a machine that drained the force out of an entire race that is VERY strong in the dark side This race was so powerful that their entire civilization was built upon the force. If a star station possesses that much force power, then anyone powerful enough to wield such energy would consequently become much stronger than before, by virtue of the amount of force that can be used. What more, Revan defeated such a powerful opponent twice, clearly indicating that it was not by some fluke. The Star Forge was described as destroying several other trained Sith Masters that tried to control its power.

He also possesses Echani precognition, a technique that could allow him to see the attacks of his enemies before hand, which gives him an advantage in saber combat.

His powers in the force were described by Rakatan's as "calling lightning from the sky." This is far different from the typical lightning which erupts from the wielders fingertips. His "magics" slaughtered their raiding parties.

I agree. imo, the Rakatans were on the level of the Ancient sith. I mean I know that the ancient sith did defeat the Rakatans, but it was luck imo.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
I agree. imo, the Rakatans were on the level of the Ancient sith. I mean I know that the ancient sith did defeat the Rakatans, but it was luck imo.

Perhaps the ancient Rakatans, but sure as hell not the primitive ones you meet on KOTOR.

Originally posted by zephiel7
Perhaps the ancient Rakatans, but sure as hell not the primitive ones you meet on KOTOR. exactly the primitives you meat in kotor you can wipe your ass with now the ancient rakatans like the ancient sith were FAR stronger than there succesors

Still, Revan's abilities in the force are somewhat inconclusive, and the fact that Uliq stalemated Kun and Sylvar without the force gives him the saber advantage.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Still, Revan's abilities in the force are somewhat inconclusive, and the fact that Uliq stalemated Kun and Sylvar without the force gives him the saber advantage.

Were you sleep deprived when you read Redemption? :P

I recall Sylvar chasing Ulic to a cliff... I don't think he was stalemating her.

I agree that stalemating Exar is a worthy point. But I am loathe to believe that Exar was at peak efficiency (or even trying); he did not use his double bladed style. Malak was empowered by a star station of powerful energies, and he was defeated twice by Revan.

No one gets tooled in this battle, but I still believe Revan walks away alive and well.

By the time Ulic stalemated Kun, he was still the best of the best in that era, so unless you want to argue that Revan>Kun or even equal to him then that feat alone should put Ulic above Revan in saber combat. Unless of course you forgot how he sliced up Warb Null.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
By the time Ulic stalemated Kun, he was still the best of the best in that era, so unless you want to argue that Revan>Kun or even equal to him then that feat alone should put Ulic above Revan in saber combat. Unless of course you forgot how he sliced up Warb Null.

I stated earlier that:



So was Ulic truly equal to Exar in terms of dueling skill?

Slicing Warb Null doesn't really stack up. Warb was a DS apprentice was he not? He should probably be around or a little lesser than Bandon (as Bandon was Malak's apprentice). And Ulic did that with THE force, so again, not really impressive IMO.

He did that with the force? Really? And Warb Null was giving a few jedi severe problems but Ulic "Ended the brief career of Warb Null with the slash of a lightsaber". And whether or Kun was at his peak is irrelevant, at that point he was already a DLOTS and the most powerful of the era in force abilities and saber combat.

Bandon was way better than Null.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
Bandon was way better than Null.

Are you kidding me? Is this another one of your "opinions"? PErhaps you should re-read the Freedon Nadd uprising, and then realize Bandon did absolutely nothing.

Giving a few jedi severe problems? Well again how strong are these Jedi in the grand scheme of things. Certainly not in Revan's league.

Revan defeated Bastila and Bandon, both of which were Malak's own apprentices.

What I am trying to say is defeating Warb Null does not put Ulic above Revan, because Revan replicated similar feats.



This is where the matter lies.

What is to say that Revan could not repeat the same feat the Ulic did; he defeated Malak when the DLOTS was empowered by the powers of an entire star station, (a significant amount as I explained earlier) and he did it twice. Those two were the best in their periods in terms of saber abilities as well, much like Exar was of his own period (granted not quite as strong by the end of Exar's story).

He repeated many of Ulic's feats (namely defeating Mandalore, but also Yusanis and Bandon.) Ulic does not have the echani precognition advantage that Revan had.

Warb Null was a nobody in terms of the other dark siders of his era (Nadd's relatives, Satal and Aleema etc. were all far more powerful), an era not too strong in the dark side may I add.

Bandon was one of the most powerful in an era where the dark side prospered ( a very complete order of dark jedi).

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Are you kidding me? Is this another one of your "opinions"? PErhaps you should re-read the Freedon Nadd uprising, and then realize Bandon did absolutely nothing.

Eh? Warb Null did not really do much either.