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Everyone is in their prime and the battle takes place on A Jedi temple room.

1st battle: Force Battle

2nd Battle: Lightsaber Battle

3rd Battle: FFA

Also, please remember to vote!

Yoda and Exar clean up.

Dook is the weakest link here. Naga Sadow would probably be the strongest one here. I highly doubt Sadow could kill Yoda or Kun before either one of them kill Dooku, and he's not going to chuck them to a star or anything like that. So either way Kun and Yoda do just enough to take out Sadow.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yoda and Exar definitinly clean up.

Make it Sadow and Kressh, that would be more fair, or maybe too much in favor of the ancient sith.

Exar and Yoda could probably take this. Sadow and Kun would fight and, assuming this is Kun in his prime, they would be about even. Yoda would fight Dooku and take him after a long battle. Then Yoda would go help Kun. Together they would take Sadow, I'm thinking.

If it was Naga and Ludo, though, the ancient Sith could probably take them, Ludo could probably beat Yoda and then him and Naga together would take Kun.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Exar and Yoda could probably take this. Sadow and Kun would fight and, assuming this is Kun in his prime, they would be about even. Yoda would fight Dooku and take him after a long battle. Then Yoda would go help Kun. Together they would take Sadow, I'm thinking.

If it was Naga and Ludo, though, the ancient Sith could probably take them, Ludo could probably beat Yoda and then him and Naga together would take Kun.

Yea I wouldn't go as far as to say Kun even in his prime was equal to Sadow, but I do know that most likely it would take Yoda far less time to take out Dooku than it would for Sadow to take out Kun. Either way Yoda and Kun gang up on Sadow and he goes down, or maybe he kills everybody including himself by blowing up a star, or something stupid like that.

If it was Naga and Ludo, they'd die even faster. Ludo was pathetic. Yoda'd destroy him

Originally posted by Lightsnake
If it was Naga and Ludo, they'd die even faster. Ludo was pathetic. Yoda'd destroy him

Good thing this is just your opinion/assumption.

Show me a single example of Ludo doing anything impressive in combat? kthxbai

Considering he did stalemate Sadow, and when he got angry the mountain shook, that was impressive enough. Feel like losing another argument?

Ooooh, he collapsed a statue! That's great. Yoda can cause avalnches and lift temples, your point?

And he stalemated Sadow, wow! yep, very impressive how they just stood there slicing at one another without any impressive combat manuevers whatsoever

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Considering he did stalemate Sadow, and when he got angry the mountain shook, that was impressive enough. Feel like losing another argument?



Is this what's going to put him above the likes of Kun and Yoda? Anakin when he was mad collapsed a building, still people say he is inferior to the unknown Revan....

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Ooooh, he collapsed a statue! That's great. Yoda can cause avalnches and lift temples, your point?

And he stalemated Sadow, wow! yep, very impressive how they just stood there slicing at one another without any impressive combat manuevers whatsoever


A statue? The whole Ziost thingy and the mountain shook. What's your point? Yoda collapsed a mountain, ok? So ignorance is bliss here, or absence of proof? And again it doesn't matter how he stalemated him, the fact is that he did. Explain to me how Yoda> ancient sith again?

Originally posted by kamikz
Is this what's going to put him above the likes of Kun and Yoda? Anakin when he was mad collapsed a building, still people say he is inferior to the unknown Revan....


No, but he did stalemate Sadow.. And unless you're going to say Kun>Sadow, then it's quite clear that Kressh is at least equal to Kun.

Nope, a statue collapsed. That was it. And Yoda, with just a esture, duplicated Ludo's feet to a much greater extent.

And once again: Ludo stalemating Sadow means nothing. I'm waiting, pal. Show me what Ludo's done that's so godly. He never made a mountain shake, he made a statue fall...anakin did the same thing. So have Luke and Yoda's lifted up temples

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Nope, a statue collapsed. That was it. And Yoda, with just a esture, duplicated Ludo's feet to a much greater extent.

And once again: Ludo stalemating Sadow means nothing. I'm waiting, pal. Show me what Ludo's done that's so godly. He never made a mountain shake, he made a statue fall...anakin did the same thing. So have Luke and Yoda's lifted up temples

Oh so Yoda>Kressh because he did it better? Hmm... Nice Logic.. Ludo has done nothing godly, but him stalemating Sadow means he's at least in Sadow's league. How does Yoda lifting temple help him in a versus fight exactly? Or are you back to irrelevant feats?

Thus far we have one force feat from Kressh exceeded by one of Yoda's and he wasn't even breathing heavy

And last I checked, Yoda's ability with TK helps him a LOT...y'know, being able to toss his opponent around?

You're saying Yoda had TK and the ancient sith didn't? Lol

I never said that. I'm saying what we've seen of Yoda's TK far, far exceeds that of the ancients

His TK far exceeds anybody but Luke... I'll make this ancient sith thread later.. Not in the mood to debate furiously.

So, Ludo's winning...how?

Lightsnake, Ludo isn't in this thread. Otherwise I wouldn't have said "I'll make the thread later".

Well, then, suffice to say, Exar and Yoda win in a sweeping landslide

Originally posted by kamikz
Is this what's going to put him above the likes of Kun and Yoda? Anakin when he was mad collapsed a building, still people say he is inferior to the unknown Revan....

Pwned.



You'd, of course, have to prove how Ancient Sith > Yoda first, since you made the assertion.

The fact of the matter is that Sadow's most impressive feat was helped by his ship, meditation sphere, and so on. Ludo and Sadow were "the two strongest Sith ", but what do you have that supports their power?

Oh? You have this:

http://img436.imageshack.us/img436/5346/nagaludoduelnz4.th.jpg

Yes, for the two "second strongest Sith ", they certainly display awesome Force powers. Sadow while dueling his own rival pulls three bricks out, one falls on Ludo's head and he practically collapses!

You're the only one saying they would win in a sweeping landslide lightsnake, so I don't take that seriously.

Considering the opposition has yet to prove anything, I'd say the same.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Pwned.



You'd, of course, have to prove how Ancient Sith > Yoda first, since you made the assertion.

The fact of the matter is that Sadow's most impressive feat was helped by his ship, meditation sphere, and so on. Ludo and Sadow were "the two strongest Sith ", but what do you have that supports their power?

Oh? You have this:

http://img436.imageshack.us/img436/5346/nagaludoduelnz4.th.jpg

Yes, for the two "second strongest Sith ", they certainly display awesome Force powers. Sadow while dueling his own rival pulls three bricks out, one falls on Ludo's head and he practically collapses!


Well put...

Originally posted by Motoko Sama

Yes, for the two "second strongest Sith ", they certainly display awesome Force powers. Sadow while dueling his own rival pulls three bricks out, one falls on Ludo's head and he practically collapses!

WTF, Motoko? Any of those bricks would have made your average force user's head turn into mush. Why is him collapsing to the ground after that a bad thing? Heck, it's more of a testament to his physical strength that Ludo manages to recover from that.

Obi-wan is able to recover a lot faster from having Durge which a metal bolas into his skull

Originally posted by Swirly Girl
WTF, Motoko? Any of those bricks would have made your average force user's head turn into mush. Why is him collapsing to the ground after that a bad thing? Heck, it's more of a testament to his physical strength that Ludo manages to recover from that.

Someone like Zett Jukassa of course would've collapsed, no arguing there.

http://img458.imageshack.us/img458/7063/kanosjaxduelxw5.th.jpg

I suppose Kir Kanos getting his head smashed in so hard that his helmet smashed and still managed to fight off and kill Carnor Jax is a "god among gods"? Kanos isn't even a Force user, and I doubt he actually even has close to the physical strength the Ancient Sith possess, but he was able to recover as well.

The fact of the matter is for dueling his rival, he only pulls out three small bricks? You'd think he'd want to actually, y'know, defeat him. And then Ludo, even possessing that amount of physical strength AND the Force itself, gets put flat on his ass by a single brick. It's even less impressive for Ludo when you consider Kanos doesn't even have the Force.

Originally posted by Swirly Girl
WTF, Motoko? Any of those bricks would have made your average force user's head turn into mush. Why is him collapsing to the ground after that a bad thing? Heck, it's more of a testament to his physical strength that Ludo manages to recover from that.

Well put. But again Dooku is the weakest link so Yoda and Kun would be just enough to take out Sadow..I do however see Lightsnake's point in the fact that Ludo is too stupid for strategy, at least Dooku is intelligent.

Lol. Yoda and Exar Kun are both capable of owning either one of these two on their own. So, I don't where you get "just enough".

I'm still waiting for the opposition (you), to provide something, anything really.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Lol. Yoda and Exar Kun are both capable of owning either one of these two on their own. So, I don't where you get "just enough".

I'm still waiting for the opposition (you), to provide something, anything really.

Since when is Kun able to own BOTH Sadow and Dooku by himself? Since when is Yoda? With that kind of assumption you're going to have to prove Kun>Sadow in a 1 on 1 duel and that's going to be kinda difficult. Would you like me to dig up some Sadow vs. Kun fights? Yoda had a tough time with Dooku, what makes you think he would be able to take on Dooku and a superior Sadow?

She said that they are both capable of owning either one. Not the both of them at the same time, DS.

My bad, misinterpretation. Since you guys did apparently establish Yoda>Kun, you'd have to prove Yoda>Sadow, and Kun>Sadow for that to actually be true.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
My bad, misinterpretation. Since you guys did apparently establish Yoda>Kun, you'd have to prove Yoda>Sadow, and Kun>Sadow for that to actually be true.

Which may be true.

As I have asked you before, time and time again, what has Sadow done without the assistance of his amulets or Ancient Sith artifacts? Without them, I would put him below Kun, Sidious, and Yoda.

Escape, Nai said it best. The fact that he had assistance with amulets should not do anything to diminish the character. In fact it shows that he knew the exact technique, but chose to either channel it through something or amplify it. In no way should that put him below those 4, I think that is an illogical argument. And the fact that Kun didn't do anything without Sadow's amulet or Sadow's teaching, and the fact that Kun became UBER powerful after only a year of learning Sadow's teachings, should put him below Sadow.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You're saying Yoda had TK and the ancient sith didn't? Lol

Hmm...I guess the mere fact that Yoda force pushed a C-9979 landing craft is testament for his ability to pretty much hurt with force TK.

Or...just to make it more clearly.

He force pushed this thingy here (width 370 meters):
http://starwars.wikia.com/images/2/28/C_9979.jpg

which normally carries 28 of that things here:
http://starwars.wikia.com/images/a/af/PAC.jpg

another 144 of these things here:
http://starwars.wikia.com/images/d/dc/AAT.jpg

and 11 of these nice things:
http://starwars.wikia.com/images/e/e8/MTT_Transport.jpg

with the matching number of droids of course. And (going by size of the vessel) he pushed it more than 500 meters backwards. So I guess if this kind of power hits a single person it hurts. Judging by this I'm pretty sure that Sidious did bring up some defence against Yoda's force push in ROTS - otherwise he should have technically ended up in the form of bloody stains on his own office walls / ground.

Of course this could have been a little bit exeggerated by the CW artists - but well...

Again Nai, notice how I never denied Yoda having TK, meaning I KNOW he has it and I've seen it. Read the post again before responding PLEASE.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Escape, Nai said it best. The fact that he had assistance with amulets should not do anything to diminish the character. In fact it shows that he knew the exact technique, but chose to either channel it through something or amplify it. In no way should that put him below those 4, I think that is an illogical argument. And the fact that Kun didn't do anything without Sadow's amulet or Sadow's teaching, and the fact that Kun became UBER powerful after only a year of learning Sadow's teachings, should put him below Sadow.

I just said we shouldn't seperate the "tools" of a force user from his actual "powers" in a versus fight. The point is that in this situation both Kun and Sadow have amulets which might prevent them from using amulet blasts against each other (just a theory).
This means neither of them can curpstomp the other and I doubt that Sadow will defeat Kun or Yoda before the other one of them has taken care of Dooku (if he can even do it).
Which means that this fight will always end with Yoda and Kun vs Sadow - and I doubt that Sadow has a chance here.

Yea Nai I said it would end up Yoda and Kun vs. Sadow at the end. But I was trying to make a point that you can't put Kun>Sadow just because Sadow used amulets.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Again Nai, notice how I never denied Yoda having TK, meaning I KNOW he has it and I've seen it. Read the post again before responding PLEASE.

You asked how force TK would help Yoda in a versus fight - I told you. End of story.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Yea Nai I said it would end up Yoda and Kun vs. Sadow at the end. But I was trying to make a point that you can't put Kun>Sadow just because Sadow used amulets.

They both do use the same amulets and Kun has shown us more than Sadow in "direct combat" situation. So if they use the same equipment but one of them seems to be better I have to say that this person might be indead better.

Originally posted by Borbarad
They both do use the same amulets and Kun has shown us more than Sadow in "direct combat" situation. So if they use the same equipment but one of them seems to be better I have to say that this person might be indead better.


Yes but I can also counter this by saying that since Sadow created the amulet, he would have more control over it, and would more likely know a defense for it as opposed to Kun. And about the force TK, you're saying that would win Yoda the fight, so Yoda is technically>all then right? And that's assuming Sadow doesn't have a defense for it.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
The fact that he had assistance with amulets should not do anything to diminish the character.

He didn't have assistance from his amulets, he had assistance from his ship, and meditation sphere.



So because the first person to build a gun had knowledge of how to do so, he was capable of firing bullets out of his ass?



No, it shouldn't.

Did Kun use Sadow's knowledge to become a master lightsaber duelist, and develop his own lightsaber/style? No? Okay then. His skill with a lightsaber made him uber, and considering Sadow doesn't even use one...

He learned Sith magic from Sadow, does that mean that Sadow is more powerful than him? I guess Sadow is inferior to whoever he learned Sith alchemy/magic from then, too? No.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
He didn't have assistance from his amulets, he had assistance from his ship, and meditation sphere.



So because the first person to build a gun had knowledge of how to do so, he was capable of firing bullets out of his ass?



No, it shouldn't.

Did Kun use Sadow's knowledge to become a master lightsaber duelist, and develop his own lightsaber/style? No? Okay then. His skill with a lightsaber made him uber, and considering Sadow doesn't even use one...

He learned Sith magic from Sadow, does that mean that Sadow is more powerful than him? I guess Sadow is inferior to whoever he learned Sith alchemy/magic from then, too? No.

Sama, he had assistance from his ship, and what did the ship use? Ah yes, Sadow's sith magic. The fact that Sadow has the ability to do what he did should say a lot about his knowledge. And again we are referring to the knowledge Kun used from Sadow. Obviously the saber combat had nothing to do with Sadow, therefore I didn't mention it. And yes, Sadow uses a sword, what is your point? And Kun learned sith magic for only a year, while Sadow learned it for how long? Obviously quality>quantity but what exactly puts Kun above Sadow?

Logical deduction?

Do you understand what logical deduction is or are you just repeating it to sound intelligent?

Deducing something logically?

Lightsnake, I can repeat what you just said too, does that mean I understand it? Why did you even bother to write it?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Sama, he had assistance from his ship, and what did the ship use? Ah yes, Sadow's sith magic.

What? What the hell are you talking about? Are you saying Sadow's ship was created by Sith magic, or something?



Okay, he's knowledgeable. And? I guess Kun can trap life energy without use of a sphere then?



You were basically implying that what he got from Sadow alone made him uber. This was not the case:



That's ridiculous. May I remind you that Exar Kun didn't even get Sadow's teaching when he used those amulet blasts? May I remind you Kun toyed with and destroyed Master Vodo without any knowledge from Sadow? May I remind you Exar Kun developed his lightsaber/style without any help from Sadow?

A lot of those things made him "UBER powerful", and some were without Sadow, so there goes your logic.



My point was that he didn't learn his combat abilities from Sadow, and thus it wasn't Sadow alone that made Exar "uber" as you were implying.



You were saying that because Exar Kun learned from Sadow, that Sadow must be more powerful than Kun himself. That's not the case.

No no you misunderstand. The majority(if not all) of his dark side abilities most likely would have been learned from Sadow. I specifically stated that his saber abilities had nothing to do with Sadow so there was no point in mentioning it. And no, Sadow's ship did the damage, but it was through sith magic that the core of the stars are ripped. I'm saying there's nothing to suggest Kun>Sadow.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No no you misunderstand.

No, I don't.



His Sith alchemy, and Sith magic skills - yes. And?

1.) That doesn't mean much, just because he learned them from Sadow, doesn't mean he couldn't have experimented with them, and create new abilities, and such. Either way, it doesn't matter much.

2.) You did state this:



Unless I am delusional, this means that he didn't do anything impressive before Sadow's teachings. But in reality, he did - his lightsaber abilities for one (which I'd put above his skill in the Force), and more.



And I'm saying there's nothing to suggest Sadow > Kun, or anything of the sort. And it was through the "remaining power of the ship" that caused solar flares. Yes, it used Sith magic to do such, but are you saying that Tarkin can destroy planets with a wave of his hand (without the DS)? Or that Kun can trap life energies (without the sphere)?

And, anyways, tell me - how is Sadow going to combat Kun when he's at point blank range and slices his head off a la ROTS Dooku...?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Escape, Nai said it best. The fact that he had assistance with amulets should not do anything to diminish the character. In fact it shows that he knew the exact technique, but chose to either channel it through something or amplify it. In no way should that put him below those 4, I think that is an illogical argument. And the fact that Kun didn't do anything without Sadow's amulet or Sadow's teaching, and the fact that Kun became UBER powerful after only a year of learning Sadow's teachings, should put him below Sadow.

Then I am afraid that I will have to disagree with Nai on this point.

If they had the ability to do it themselves, then they would not have created the amulets. And, before you toss the fact that they created these so-called artifacts for purely "the future", it should be made known that that isn't apparently the entire purpose of these amulets, as they used them in combat themselves.

Furthermore, I am not aware of Sadow using these nifty amulet blasts without the amulet.

So, do not presume to tell me that they performed these abilities without technological assistance.

Ok escape then I will use one of your examples. These amulets sometimes channel the force through them and sometimes augment X power to increase it. Your example was steroids. Barry Bonds could be the best player in the game or among the best of them, but by using steroids he became beyond everybody else. Are you saying he wasn't a great baseball player before that? Same goes with the amulets. The fact that you didn't see them doing anything without their amulet(absence of proof), should not diminish their abilities. The fact that they created said amulelts and poured their abilities into them speaks positively about them. YOu yourself mentioned that you've seen them do with the amulets that you've never seen anyone do without? Then that's exactly why the created the amulets, to do things others can't. But then again, you didn't see anyone after them with the ability to create amulets and with the knowledge to channel the force through them or augment them in the way of the ancient sith, so instead of telling me they are nothing without their amulets, give them the credit they deserve for having the ability to create such amulets and to create crazy force abilities through those amulets.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Ok escape then I will use one of your examples. These amulets sometimes channel the force through them and sometimes augment X power to increase it. Your example was steroids. Barry Bonds could be the best player in the game or among the best of them, but by using steroids he became beyond everybody else. Are you saying he wasn't a great baseball player before that? Same goes with the amulets. The fact that you didn't see them doing anything without their amulet(absence of proof), should not diminish their abilities. The fact that they created said amulelts and poured their abilities into them speaks positively about them. YOu yourself mentioned that you've seen them do with the amulets that you've never seen anyone do without? Then that's exactly why the created the amulets, to do things others can't. But then again, you didn't see anyone after them with the ability to create amulets and with the knowledge to channel the force through them or augment them in the way of the ancient sith, so instead of telling me they are nothing without their amulets, give them the credit they deserve for having the ability to create such amulets and to create crazy force abilities through those amulets.

Ah, and there you go. If I may:



You've underlined the entire predicament. I never denied that Sadow was one of the best. I believe that I told you that he had to possess a notable amount of energy for the amulets in question to augment - and that he was an incredibly brilliant alchemist.

But, you've just proved my point. Without the help of the steroids, Bonds was just your above-average player. Not the best. Good, but not the best.

Which is my point. Sadow, even without his amulets, is powerful. But not on Kun's level, not on Palpatine's level, and not on Yoda's level.

Originally posted by Borbarad
You asked how force TK would help Yoda in a versus fight - I told you. End of story.


Can you guys stay on topic?

What do you mean not on Kun's level? Kun was nothing more than a saber master without the amulet. With it he was the best of the best? And what makes you think Sadow was just average? What makes you think he wasn't the best? Notice how I used that example for your augmenting theory. What about the fact that these amulets were created to augment their powers, OR channel their hatred or dark side through these things, as an intermediary, as opposed to nothing? What makes you think Bonds wasn't the best player in the game or among the best before steroids? In fact he WAS among the best without roids, and he became the absolute WHILE on roids. Perhaps I should use Sammy Sosa as a better example? Regardless, there is nothing to point to Kun being superior to Sadow in anyway, and there is nothing that points Kun to being anything but a saber master.

Kun was able to finish Vodo.
Sadow couldn't finish Ludo. When he'd just dropped Ludo to the floor

Theirs nothing to really point to Sadow being godly either

We don't really see Sadow so anything uber impressive.

First fight: He uses slight TK to move some bricks, something ESB Luke was able to do, lol.

Hm...he created illusions..BUT he did it with hi sship, and you can say that he did it through the force but if he did than why would he need the ship in the first place?

He managed to blow up a star. Again, he did it with his ship, and if he just used the force than why did he need the ship in the firts place?

Sadow Naga does pretty much nothing in the ways of grand uber forceness.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Kun was able to finish Vodo.
Sadow couldn't finish Ludo. When he'd just dropped Ludo to the floor

This is why I don't argue with you anymore lightsnake. What the HELL does A have to do with B? You brought up more irrelevant misdirection that neither hurts nor helps your argument, it was just a wasted post.

Originally posted by Blaxican Hydra
Theirs nothing to really point to Sadow being godly either

We don't really see Sadow so anything uber impressive.

First fight: He uses slight TK to move some bricks, something ESB Luke was able to do, lol.

Hm...he created illusions..BUT he did it with hi sship, and you can say that he did it through the force but if he did than why would he need the ship in the first place?

He managed to blow up a star. Again, he did it with his ship, and if he just used the force than why did he need the ship in the firts place?

Sadow Naga does pretty much nothing in the ways of grand uber forceness.

Nobody did anything that was uber except DE Sidious and NJO Luke. I guess you can count Ragnos' scepter in the uber category. The rest are the likes of Sadow who blew up stars and such.

Again he blew up starts with his ship. He can't exactly jump into his sphere in the middle of the match and blow up a star, so his "blowing up stars' is rather irrelevant isn't it?

While we see Yoda force pushing entire carriers, and padawans force pushing several Stardestroyers miles away.

First of all, it took a LOT of padawans to push a star destroyer away. Secondly he blew up a star with his ship, but it was the sith magic he created which tore the core out of the sun. Obviously Sadow cannot fly to the nearest sun like superman can he? Transportation is convenient. And I don't see how all of this talk about the Ancient sith only being cool with their amulets is logical. THe majority if not ALL of the attacks you see in TOTJ and KOTOR and afterwards, were derived from the ancient sith. A great example would be Nihilus' technique which was confirmed to come from the ancient sith. Did they use amulets, or did they do it without, what does it matter? The fact of the matter it is the ancient sith knew all of these techniques that were passed down and even forgotten, but they're suddenly only above average because you use the amulet to discredit them? As far as I remember, only DE Sidious and Luke created their own techniques. So the amulet theory shouldn't be a reason to think the ancient sith are just above average.

But the point is that wether or not the Anicent Sith could do the techniques w/o the items is questionable. If not then it doesn't really count as doing their "techniques". By your logic i can say that Sideous can blow up planets because he used the death star to do it.

No, you can't use that logic, because A=/B. The ancient sith poured their sith abilities into the amulets to channel them, hence Ragnos' scepter, amulet blasts, Nihilus' technique. The death star is NOT a force based attack, therefore it is irrelevant in this argument.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No, you can't use that logic, because A=/B. The ancient sith poured their sith abilities into the amulets to channel them, hence Ragnos' scepter, amulet blasts, Nihilus' technique. The death star is NOT a force based attack, therefore it is irrelevant in this argument.

I suppose Exar Kun can trap life energy then without the sphere he built?

Short answer: Hell no.

I suppose Naga Sadow can cause solar flares without his ship?

Short answer: Hell no. If he did possess that kind of power, he could've crushed Kressh swiftly, and owned the invading Republic.

I suppose Naga Sadow can shoot Dragonball Z blasts out of his ass without his amulets?

Short answer: Hell no.

I suppose the first person to build a gun could poop out bullets then without a gun?

Short answer: Hell no.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
I suppose Exar Kun can trap life energy then without the sphere he built?

Short answer: Hell no.

I suppose Naga Sadow can cause solar flares without his ship?

Short answer: Hell no. If he did possess that kind of power, he could've crushed Kressh swiftly, and owned the invading Republic.

I suppose Naga Sadow can shoot Dragonball Z blasts out of his ass without his amulets?

Short answer: Hell no.

I suppose the first person to build a gun could poop out bullets then without a gun?

Short answer: Hell no.

I love the sig.

And that was basicly just a meaner version fo what I said

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
I suppose Exar Kun can trap life energy then without the sphere he built?

Short answer: Hell no.

I suppose Naga Sadow can cause solar flares without his ship?

Short answer: Hell no. If he did possess that kind of power, he could've crushed Kressh swiftly, and owned the invading Republic.

I suppose Naga Sadow can shoot Dragonball Z blasts out of his ass without his amulets?

Short answer: Hell no.

I suppose the first person to build a gun could poop out bullets then without a gun?

Short answer: Hell no.


Do those include abilities that were derived from the ancient sith and used later on in almost every instance from a sith lord? No, notice how the amulet abilities are the ones that AREN'T used anywhere else Sama..

Originally posted by Blaxican Hydra
I love the sig.

Thanks. Though the text isn't exactly how it's suppose to be in the actual version...I just can't find it.



True, it's just more to the point, because this argument about what they can do without them is ridiculous.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Do those include abilities that were derived from the ancient sith and used later on in almost every instance from a sith lord?

What the hell are you talking about? Nihilus' abilities is just that - his ability, he doesn't need shit like ships, and spheres to use it. As well, 'derived from the Ancient Sith'? Said by who? Kreia? The fallible third party character?



WTF are you talking about?

I clearly don't understand what either of these points were suppose to be, so if you could, explain in English or Japanese. Take your pick.

Komo sai wha?

Originally posted by Motoko Sama


What the hell are you talking about? Nihilus' abilities is just that - his ability, he doesn't need shit like ships, and spheres to use it. As well, 'derived from the Ancient Sith'? Said by who? Kreia? The fallible third party character?



WTF are you talking about?

I clearly don't understand what either of these points were suppose to be, so if you could, explain in English or Japanese. Take your pick.

If I knew Japanese I would.. Let's get something straight, you can claim that Kreia is a fallible 3rd party character when she mentions Revan, or the Exile, or who's better. But Kreia is a powerful Sith/Jedi Master who has a LOT of knowledge and history, so she is credible when discussing certain things. Unless of course by your fallible 3rd party, she's just making shit up in regards to Sadow, Ragnos Hord, and Pall, on Korriban. Now Sama, how is it that she has that knowledge, and seems to be the only one that does? Could it mean that she is more knowledgable in the history of the ancient sith? Then that would mean that she is a credible source in terms of certain things, certain abilities that derive from the ancient sith.

My other point is, you claim that ancient sith couldn't do certain things without the amulets, and I agree with you in regards to an amulet blast or blowing up the sun. But most, if not all the abilities later sith lords use, are derived from the ancient sith. So what I'm saying is, they know the techniques, otherwise they wouldn't have been able to even create them through the amulets. And if you are still convinced Kreia is a fallible 3rd party character in terms of Nihilus ability, please see Ragnos' scepter, since it does EXACTLY what Nihilus did.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
If I knew Japanese I would.. Let's get something straight, you can claim that Kreia is a fallible 3rd party character when she mentions Revan, or the Exile, or who's better.

Kreia is a known liar, I can call her a fallible third party character anytime I please. Of course, that's only since she is.



Irrelevant.



Tell me exactly how she knows Nihilus' technique came from the Ancient Sith? Tell me how she says "there is no defense" for it, but the Exile defended against it?



No, she's a historian. Now tell me, how she knows about the Ancient Sith techniques exactly? Does Odan Urr know of all the Sith techniques, too then? Does Ood?

Better question: what the hell does this have to do with anything?



Better question: what the hell does this have to do with anything?

What does Kreia knowing that Nihilus' ability was derived from the Ancient Sith mean at all? The Ancient Sith don't do what Nihilus' does, as they apparently became, y'know, extinct. I suppose for having all these great "aces", it didn't save them from getting wiped off the galaxy - now did it?



That's really all we've seen the amulet do: shoot out DBZ blasts, project messages, and destroy spirits. All we've seen the ship do is: blow up stars, and move around.

That's basically all we even see the Ancient Sith do (and we don't even see what they do with amulets) aside from getting pwned by a single brick.



So the Ancient Sith know all Darkside techniques? Hell no they don't.



That makes about 0% sense. They know techniques, and because they do they "create them through the amulets"? That sentence really doesn't make sense.

Anyways, we've only seen the amulet do three things:

1.) Produce Dragonball Z blasts

The Ancient Sith cannot produce the same blasts without the amulets, that's ridiculous. If they could, they would've owned everybody and the Republic, too.

2.) Destroy spirits

Irrelevant really, I don't see how destroying spirits even speaks for their power unless Tionne and the other apprentices who banished Exar Kun are suddenly Force gods at age twelve and under.

3.) Carry messages down to the future

Irrelevant really in this fight.

Now tell me - what the f*ck do any of those things have to do with "techniques"? Or the better question: what did that statement even mean?



What? Raise temples? If, in fact, that's the only thing that it was derived from (Ancient Sith technology) it's really irrelevant. As well, what the hell are we even arguing - we're getting off topic:

How is anything we've seen Sadow do going to stop Exar Kun's lightsaber from slicing him in half?

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Tell me exactly how she knows Nihilus' technique came from the Ancient Sith? Tell me how she says "there is no defense" for it, but the Exile defended against it?

Well gee Sama, Kreia seemed to know all about the ancient sith including Ragnos, Hord, Pall, Sadow, and Kressh, but all of a sudden when she describes a technique derived from the ancient sith(something she at LEAST has SOME knowledge on, at the very least), she's a liar? Hmmm..

No, she's a historian. Now tell me, how she knows about the Ancient Sith techniques exactly? Does Odan Urr know of all the Sith techniques, too then? Does Ood?

What? I'm guessing you're making a point that this is irrelevant, but in any case, the fact that she knows the technique and claims that it came from the ancient sith, added with the fact that Ragnos' scepter just that, means the technique derived from the ancient sith, and so did the majority(if not all) of the techniques the sith have learned, including Kun. Unless of course Kun invented his own force based stuff. My point is you sit there and say " well the ancient sith are nothing or average because they used amulets". My point is it is irrelevant that they use amulets because the abilities within those amulets are unmatched anywhere else, and the fact that all these uber techniques came from the ancient sith should say something about their power.

What does Kreia knowing that Nihilus' ability was derived from the Ancient Sith mean at all? The Ancient Sith don't do what Nihilus' does, as they apparently became, y'know, extinct. I suppose for having all these great "aces", it didn't save them from getting wiped off the galaxy - now did it?
Irrelevant, and a typical lightsnake quote. Well let me counter that one Sama. Sidious is the most uber sith lord in history, yet he got beat by a machine the first time, and by 2 1/2 people the second time? Wow... What's your point. I attribute the fall of sith not to their lack of abilities, but to their lack of intelligence and common sense, to the fact that Sadow took the majority of an unprepared sith empire, and tried to destroy the vastly superior Republic. His stupidity proved the downfall of the sith empire, not the sith's force abilities, so your comment wasn't relevant.


So the Ancient Sith know all Darkside techniques? Hell no they don't.
Can you tell me of any darkside techniques that DIDNT derive from them with the exception of the force storm which did derive from them but was perfected by Sidious? hmm..





How is anything we've seen Sadow do going to stop Exar Kun's lightsaber from slicing him in half?

You're assuming that Kun is a better duelist. How conclusive is that? I can also say that the swords weigh a great amount and the fact that Sadow can swing them as fast as he does (which does leave some traces in GAOTS), means that every swing he would be pushing Kun back, or rather Kun would be flying back, considering the ancient sith had incredible physical strength.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Well gee Sama, Kreia seemed to know all about the ancient sith including Ragnos, Hord, Pall, Sadow, and Kressh, but all of a sudden when she describes a technique derived from the ancient sith(something she at LEAST has SOME knowledge on, at the very least), she's a liar? Hmmm..

Well, Sexy, let's see: you've yet to tell me how there was a defense for it.

And anyways, as I've stated: what does this have to do with anything? We've never seen the Ancient Sith do anything like Nihilus has (without use of technology), and if, in fact, they did know it - they'd wipe themselves to extinction since it's natural, and apparently no defense other than being a wound in the Force. On top of the fact, they would've pwned the Republic. But - as I've said - they didn't, and were killed or rather wiped off the face of the galaxy. And, still this is irrelevant because Sadow doesn't possess Ragnos' sceptor.



You're so ridiculous, and ignorant. Your entire argument is based off things we:

1.) Don't know.
2.) Never see.
3.) Know are ridiculous.

And "guessing" it's irrelevant? Oh god, I contribute more to this forum than you ever have. I present more logical arguments in a single thread than you have your entire posting history, and I also can tear anything you give to me to shreds. If anyone should be claiming that an argument is irrelevant, it should be me...tell me again - what does Nihilus' technique being derived from the Ancient Sith have to do with anything?

She never says Naga Sadow knew it, she never said Ludo Kressh knew it, she never said Marka Ragnos knew it. For all we know (and that's about nothing), it could've been developed in 7,000 BBY and lost until Nihilus came around. So here, in fact, any argument you're trying to make collapses.

Which was to be demonstrated.



So Marka Ragnos knew Force lightning? He knew Force choke? No, you can't say any of those Ancient Sith have any of those abilities at all. How do you know they weren't derived from the first Dark Jedi, hm? Oh? You don't? I figured as much.

She never says Naga Sadow knew it, she never said Ludo Kressh knew it, she never said Marka Ragnos knew it. For all we know (and that's about nothing), it could've been developed in 7,000 BBY and lost until Nihilus came around. So here, in fact, any argument you're trying to make collapses!

That applies for all techniques said to be "derived" from the Ancient Sith.

And really, can you say 'irrelevant'? Simply because Marka Ragnos' sceptor does what Nihilus can do, doesn't mean Marka Ragnos can do it too (without his scepter), or any other Ancient Sith. So, basically, you're arguing irrelevant bullshit that doesn't even matter in this fight.



Okay, the Ancient Sith are above average and powerful, but they are less impressive because they used amulets/Sith technology. Sadow doesn't have his ship in this fight, Sadow has his amulets, and so does Kun? What the f*ck is your point exactly, Sexy? You haven't even proved how Exar Kun or Yoda is going to lose to Sadow.

What the f*ck does Ragnos' sceptor (not Sadow's) have to do with anything in this fight? What the f*ck does Sadow's ship have to do with anything in this fight?

Short answer: Nothing. Sadow cannot shoot beams out of his ass, and he cannot create solar manipulations without his ship. So, as I've been saying all along, how is any of this relevant?

We cannot assume Sadow has Force lightning, we cannot assume he has Force whatever, whatever because he hasn't shown us it. And it's illogical to assume such, because there could be an explanation for it.



What are you talking about? It's completely relevant.

Let me explain this to you easy,

Sadow. Is. Not. Capable. Of. Blowing. Up. A. Star. Without. His. Ship

So, you saying "z0mg h3's ub3r p0werfu1 b3caus3 h3 cr3ated it!" is stupid as hell to assume. And what the hell

"because the abilities within those amulets are unmatched anywhere else"

What exactly does this statement say? I mean, I went to a bilingual school for English and Japanese. I even know Mandarin, yet surprisingly I cannot understand gibberish.

I'll just copy and paste about the amulets only doing three things:

1.) Produce Dragonball Z blasts

The Ancient Sith cannot produce the same blasts without the amulets, that's ridiculous. If they could, they would've owned everybody and the Republic, too.

2.) Destroy spirits

Irrelevant really, I don't see how destroying spirits even speaks for their power unless Tionne and the other apprentices who banished Exar Kun are suddenly Force gods at age twelve and under.

3.) Carry messages down to the future

Irrelevant really in this fight.

They do not hold anymore "techniques", the amulets do those three things. The amulets do not produce Force lightning, they do not Force grip people. The only thing Sadow can use is the blasts, which we've only seen demonstrated by Exar anyways.

Now, I'm going to move onto my next point:

Even if "all/most" Darkside techniques are derived from the Ancient Sith (and that's bullshit anyways, but we'll work with it) that doesn't mean jack really. Simply because they created them, they are the best at those techniques? The most powerful at using them? No.

It could be the equivalent to how our world works: Someone created a single shot gun ages ago, now today you see we've produce machine guns, and automatic weapons, etc. So, actually it could be the Ancient Sith only worked at the beginnings (as it would seem since it says "derived", ergo it doesn't mean they are the most powerful at using them.

Also, I'd like you to prove that all Darkside techniques are derived from the Ancient Sith, since you seem so fond on doing it.



Irrelevant, and a typical tdtd quote. Also, it wasn't irrelevant, you dolt. If you understood the question, possibly you'd know that.



You can try, Sexy, but as usual - it will just be countered again, and slaughtered by yours truly.



LOL! That was your counter? Firstly, let me say that I wasn't aware Sidious could just walk around draining people, shoot laser beams out of his ass, and knew all Darkside techniques.

Secondly, he didn't "get beat by a machine". I guess you didn't watch ROTJ? He was busy owning Luke, while his loyal apprentice for the past twenty years betrayed him, and caught him off guard. This differs from the Ancient Sith because they were IN. A. WAR. They were prepared, and knew what was coming.

Thirdly, he was only beaten when the combined powers of Luke Skywalker (the most powerful being in Star Wars), Leia, and her fetus used their strength to shield Sidious from the Darkside or something like that, and thus he was left unable to control the storm and it owned him.

Fourth, you can quit the downplaying, and bad logic - it's not helping.



Oh god, can we say "contradiction" - if they aren't intelligent how the f*ck did they "develop all Darkside techniques"? I guess they are just a primitive race of imbeciles then, eh? It takes intelligence to develop techniques. They don't just wave their hands around, and a new technique comes to them.



Again:





I shouldn't have to tell you which didn't because we don't know. God damn this is an easy argument.

Better question: can you tell me which techniques did come from the Ancient Sith? Then also tell me which Sith knew them, and if they could've been developed 7,000 BBY and lost among the ages?

You've yet to specify which techniques came from them, so I really shouldn't have to tell you which didn't as it's up to you to do that. You sure as hell know logic, eh?

Well, you're assuming that Sadow is more powerful. How conclusive is that? Not very.

As well, I might as well point out that I'm "assuming" such based on what we have seen from both parties. Exar Kun has demonstrated more skill in melee combat than Sadow, he's also demonstrated more Force abilities than Sadow, too. I'm "assuming" my stuff based on what we see, and logical deduction. Based on those two things - Exar has shown his worth in combat ability, Sadow has not.

Which was to be demonstrated.



Okay? And I can also say that Exar Kun leaves traces with his lightsaber. As I've been trying to say throughout this entire discussion: your point?

Oh. How could I forget, you're going to say "z0mg sw0rd is heavi3r"! Yes, and I'll say - so what? A fencer using a rapier is capable of owning an opponent armed with a zweihander.



Exar Kun also increases "incredible physical strength" - crushing twice through Vodo's stick which was "more powerful than Exar Kun's lightsaber!". Granted the first time, he used two. But on the second time, he used one side of his lightsaber - as it'd be impossible to use two anyways.

Exar Kun also is capable of picking up the Chancellor of the Senate with one hand by the head, and pushing Sylvar's head in with one hand, too.

And, as usual, your argument fails.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Tell me exactly how she knows Nihilus' technique came from the Ancient Sith? Tell me how she says "there is no defense" for it, but the Exile defended against it?

Excuse me Sama. She knows that the technique comes from the Ancient Sith because Nihilus "learned" it at Malachor V - a storehouse of Ancient Sith knowledge. And the Exile resisted the effect because of his/her nature as "wound in the force" - not because he / she had a real "defence" (useable skill) against it.



The same blasts ? Maybe not. Still you can see Aleema Keto instakilling some minion with a Sith Magic attack that seems to desintegrate the victim - without using an amulet. And if some minor Sith Witch can do that I don't have any doubt that an Ancient Sith can pull that off.

Aside of this I don't even know why people are discussing if Kun is greater than Sadow. Anderson seems to think that Kun is more powerful than the Ancient Sith (as he basically indirectly stated when saying that, to find out who's the strongest Sith ever you have to put up Kun against Sidious). Also Kun did simply had a greater knowledge base then Sadow since he had all Sadow did knew + other stuff (from Nadd, from Ossus, from his own Jedi training) and possibly a greater force potential.

Hell...I don't even know why you are still debating here when - until now - basically all have agreed that (worst case for Yoda and Kun) this would end with Sadow vs Kun and Yoda which Sadow would lose. The thread is basically solved...

Well enough then, Nai.

Case closed.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Someone like Zett Jukassa of course would've collapsed, no arguing there.

http://img458.imageshack.us/img458/7063/kanosjaxduelxw5.th.jpg

I suppose Kir Kanos getting his head smashed in so hard that his helmet smashed and still managed to fight off and kill Carnor Jax is a "god among gods"? Kanos isn't even a Force user, and I doubt he actually even has close to the physical strength the Ancient Sith possess, but he was able to recover as well.

Yah, he had a helmet on. Heck (for instance), If I was riding at twenty miles per hour on my bicycle and fell off; there's a fairly good chance that I'd smash my head up. If I was wearing a helmet? I could survive.

If he didn't have his helmet on, his head would have been smashed up.

Implying that getting knocked down by a brick being thrown at you by Sadow is a bit silly to say the least.



Irrelevant. I guess in RotS, Obi-Wan and Anakin don't want to kill each other because they only force push each other? Lol, it's pretty clear that Ludo and Sadow loath each other and are out to kill each other.

And getting put on his back by a single brick? Pfft, have you ever had a brick rammed into your head at that speed?

It's not entirely the nicest of feelings, and the impetus from it is going to knock you down for certain.

Originally posted by Swirly Girl
Yah, he had a helmet on. Heck (for instance), If I was riding at twenty miles per hour on my bicycle and fell off; there's a fairly good chance that I'd smash my head up. If I was wearing a helmet? I could survive.

If he didn't have his helmet on, his head would have been smashed up.

Implying that getting knocked down by a brick being thrown at you by Sadow is a bit silly to say the least.



Irrelevant. I guess in RotS, Obi-Wan and Anakin don't want to kill each other because they only force push each other? Lol, it's pretty clear that Ludo and Sadow loath each other and are out to kill each other.

And getting put on his back by a single brick? Pfft, have you ever had a brick rammed into your head at that speed?

It's not entirely the nicest of feelings, and the impetus from it is going to knock you down for certain.


I've takena brick to the head before. Some jackass who had a grudge against for me for some reason threw a brick at me in Middle school. I bled a bit btu besides that I was fine...

i agree that throwing a brick is pretty weak, considering that if Yoda or someone was in the fight they would have just thrown a wall...

Originally posted by Borbarad
Excuse me Sama. She knows that the technique comes from the Ancient Sith because Nihilus "learned" it at Malachor V - a storehouse of Ancient Sith knowledge. And the Exile resisted the effect because of his/her nature as "wound in the force" - not because he / she had a real "defence" (useable skill) against it.



The same blasts ? Maybe not. Still you can see Aleema Keto instakilling some minion with a Sith Magic attack that seems to desintegrate the victim - without using an amulet. And if some minor Sith Witch can do that I don't have any doubt that an Ancient Sith can pull that off.

Aside of this I don't even know why people are discussing if Kun is greater than Sadow. Anderson seems to think that Kun is more powerful than the Ancient Sith (as he basically indirectly stated when saying that, to find out who's the strongest Sith ever you have to put up Kun against Sidious). Also Kun did simply had a greater knowledge base then Sadow since he had all Sadow did knew + other stuff (from Nadd, from Ossus, from his own Jedi training) and possibly a greater force potential.

Hell...I don't even know why you are still debating here when - until now - basically all have agreed that (worst case for Yoda and Kun) this would end with Sadow vs Kun and Yoda which Sadow would lose. The thread is basically solved...

Nai, I read that email as well and please me where you got "Kun>Ancients out of it". As far as I remember the ancients weren't even mentioned, that Kun was the best of his time, and that Sidious was the best of his time, that's all.

Close. Probably Exar Kun and Yoda. Yoda defeats Dooku before Sadow can defeat Kun, and together they double-team sadow and win.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Well, Sexy, let's see: you've yet to tell me how there was a defense for it.

And anyways, as I've stated: what does this have to do with anything? We've never seen the Ancient Sith do anything like Nihilus has (without use of technology), and if, in fact, they did know it - they'd wipe themselves to extinction since it's natural, and apparently no defense other than being a wound in the Force. On top of the fact, they would've pwned the Republic. But - as I've said - they didn't, and were killed or rather wiped off the face of the galaxy. And, still this is irrelevant because Sadow doesn't possess Ragnos' sceptor.



You're so ridiculous, and ignorant. Your entire argument is based off things we:

1.) Don't know.
2.) Never see.
3.) Know are ridiculous.

And "guessing" it's irrelevant? Oh god, I contribute more to this forum than you ever have. I present more logical arguments in a single thread than you have your entire posting history, and I also can tear anything you give to me to shreds. If anyone should be claiming that an argument is irrelevant, it should be me...tell me again - what does Nihilus' technique being derived from the Ancient Sith have to do with anything?

She never says Naga Sadow knew it, she never said Ludo Kressh knew it, she never said Marka Ragnos knew it. For all we know (and that's about nothing), it could've been developed in 7,000 BBY and lost until Nihilus came around. So here, in fact, any argument you're trying to make collapses.

Which was to be demonstrated.



So Marka Ragnos knew Force lightning? He knew Force choke? No, you can't say any of those Ancient Sith have any of those abilities at all. How do you know they weren't derived from the first Dark Jedi, hm? Oh? You don't? I figured as much.

She never says Naga Sadow knew it, she never said Ludo Kressh knew it, she never said Marka Ragnos knew it. For all we know (and that's about nothing), it could've been developed in 7,000 BBY and lost until Nihilus came around. So here, in fact, any argument you're trying to make collapses!

That applies for all techniques said to be "derived" from the Ancient Sith.

And really, can you say 'irrelevant'? Simply because Marka Ragnos' sceptor does what Nihilus can do, doesn't mean Marka Ragnos can do it too (without his scepter), or any other Ancient Sith. So, basically, you're arguing irrelevant bullshit that doesn't even matter in this fight.



Okay, the Ancient Sith are above average and powerful, but they are less impressive because they used amulets/Sith technology. Sadow doesn't have his ship in this fight, Sadow has his amulets, and so does Kun? What the f*ck is your point exactly, Sexy? You haven't even proved how Exar Kun or Yoda is going to lose to Sadow.

What the f*ck does Ragnos' sceptor (not Sadow's) have to do with anything in this fight? What the f*ck does Sadow's ship have to do with anything in this fight?

Short answer: Nothing. Sadow cannot shoot beams out of his ass, and he cannot create solar manipulations without his ship. So, as I've been saying all along, how is any of this relevant?

We cannot assume Sadow has Force lightning, we cannot assume he has Force whatever, whatever because he hasn't shown us it. And it's illogical to assume such, because there could be an explanation for it.



What are you talking about? It's completely relevant.

Let me explain this to you easy,

Sadow. Is. Not. Capable. Of. Blowing. Up. A. Star. Without. His. Ship

So, you saying "z0mg h3's ub3r p0werfu1 b3caus3 h3 cr3ated it!" is stupid as hell to assume. And what the hell

"because the abilities within those amulets are unmatched anywhere else"

What exactly does this statement say? I mean, I went to a bilingual school for English and Japanese. I even know Mandarin, yet surprisingly I cannot understand gibberish.

I'll just copy and paste about the amulets only doing three things:

1.) Produce Dragonball Z blasts

The Ancient Sith cannot produce the same blasts without the amulets, that's ridiculous. If they could, they would've owned everybody and the Republic, too.

2.) Destroy spirits

Irrelevant really, I don't see how destroying spirits even speaks for their power unless Tionne and the other apprentices who banished Exar Kun are suddenly Force gods at age twelve and under.

3.) Carry messages down to the future

Irrelevant really in this fight.

They do not hold anymore "techniques", the amulets do those three things. The amulets do not produce Force lightning, they do not Force grip people. The only thing Sadow can use is the blasts, which we've only seen demonstrated by Exar anyways.

Now, I'm going to move onto my next point:

Even if "all/most" Darkside techniques are derived from the Ancient Sith (and that's bullshit anyways, but we'll work with it) that doesn't mean jack really. Simply because they created them, they are the best at those techniques? The most powerful at using them? No.

It could be the equivalent to how our world works: Someone created a single shot gun ages ago, now today you see we've produce machine guns, and automatic weapons, etc. So, actually it could be the Ancient Sith only worked at the beginnings (as it would seem since it says "derived", ergo it doesn't mean they are the most powerful at using them.

Also, I'd like you to prove that all Darkside techniques are derived from the Ancient Sith, since you seem so fond on doing it.



Irrelevant, and a typical tdtd quote. Also, it wasn't irrelevant, you dolt. If you understood the question, possibly you'd know that.



You can try, Sexy, but as usual - it will just be countered again, and slaughtered by yours truly.



LOL! That was your counter? Firstly, let me say that I wasn't aware Sidious could just walk around draining people, shoot laser beams out of his ass, and knew all Darkside techniques.

Secondly, he didn't "get beat by a machine". I guess you didn't watch ROTJ? He was busy owning Luke, while his loyal apprentice for the past twenty years betrayed him, and caught him off guard. This differs from the Ancient Sith because they were IN. A. WAR. They were prepared, and knew what was coming.

Thirdly, he was only beaten when the combined powers of Luke Skywalker (the most powerful being in Star Wars), Leia, and her fetus used their strength to shield Sidious from the Darkside or something like that, and thus he was left unable to control the storm and it owned him.

Fourth, you can quit the downplaying, and bad logic - it's not helping.



Oh god, can we say "contradiction" - if they aren't intelligent how the f*ck did they "develop all Darkside techniques"? I guess they are just a primitive race of imbeciles then, eh? It takes intelligence to develop techniques. They don't just wave their hands around, and a new technique comes to them.



Again:





I shouldn't have to tell you which didn't because we don't know. God damn this is an easy argument.

Better question: can you tell me which techniques did come from the Ancient Sith? Then also tell me which Sith knew them, and if they could've been developed 7,000 BBY and lost among the ages?

You've yet to specify which techniques came from them, so I really shouldn't have to tell you which didn't as it's up to you to do that. You sure as hell know logic, eh?

I love you.

See my Antithesis of Ragnos Owns All thread in the EU section.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Well, you're assuming that Sadow is more powerful. How conclusive is that? Not very.

As well, I might as well point out that I'm "assuming" such based on what we have seen from both parties. Exar Kun has demonstrated more skill in melee combat than Sadow, he's also demonstrated more Force abilities than Sadow, too. I'm "assuming" my stuff based on what we see, and logical deduction. Based on those two things - Exar has shown his worth in combat ability, Sadow has not.

Which was to be demonstrated.



Okay? And I can also say that Exar Kun leaves traces with his lightsaber. As I've been trying to say throughout this entire discussion: your point?

Oh. How could I forget, you're going to say "z0mg sw0rd is heavi3r"! Yes, and I'll say - so what? A fencer using a rapier is capable of owning an opponent armed with a zweihander.



Exar Kun also increases "incredible physical strength" - crushing twice through Vodo's stick which was "more powerful than Exar Kun's lightsaber!". Granted the first time, he used two. But on the second time, he used one side of his lightsaber - as it'd be impossible to use two anyways.

Exar Kun also is capable of picking up the Chancellor of the Senate with one hand by the head, and pushing Sylvar's head in with one hand, too.

And, as usual, your argument fails.

Remind me how my argument here fails? Vodo isn't Naga Sadow, the ancient sith used swords because they were powerful enough to use them, you speak of logical deduction, here's one for you. Ancient Sith Species>Humans in terms of raw power. Unless of course Sadow magically puts the sword into the ground, through bricks, and Ludo Kressh DOESNT smash his sword in little pieces based on his power. Yes Sama, my argument here fails. And another thing.. Because we see Kun fight wth his saber and we only see Sadow stalemate Kressh, absence of proof and inconclusive evidence automatically means Kun>Sadow? Hmm. As to your other essay, I shall get to it when I can, give me a few hours to read it. And regarding your take on what powers came from the ancient sith? Let's start with which powers DIDNT come from the ancient sith, implying that somebody had to invent their own abilities. Who do wo we see doing that? Exactly, DE Sidious, who learned from the sith that existed not 1,000 years ago, not 2,000 years ago, but 5,000 years ago, and who's force storm was perfected. Now why is it that everybody that falls to the dark side(at least the most powerful ones), always end up learning from the ancient sith? That's an interesting thought. I highly doubt it was because they were average or "above average" or couldn't do ANYTHING without their amulets/ships.

Originally posted by Blaxican Hydra
I've takena brick to the head before. Some jackass who had a grudge against for me for some reason threw a brick at me in Middle school. I bled a bit btu besides that I was fine...

i agree that throwing a brick is pretty weak, considering that if Yoda or someone was in the fight they would have just thrown a wall...

Dude, getting a brick thrown directly at your head can kill you. I'm guessing you're either lying, or the brick hardly made any contact with your head whatsoever.

Nein, it just depends upon the force of the brick. I've had a brick drop a few feet onto my head before. It hurt, but I'm still here.

Having a brick tossed at a high speed to your head is something else.

No dude swirly girl is right. Do you understand physics? There's a difference between let's say having a brick fall off and smack you on the head, giving you a concussion at best, and having someone chuck a brick at your face at full speed, and either severely brain damaging you, or crushing your skull.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Nai, I read that email as well and please me where you got "Kun>Ancients out of it". As far as I remember the ancients weren't even mentioned, that Kun was the best of his time, and that Sidious was the best of his time, that's all.

Meh. Lightsnake did ask who's the strongest Sith Lord - Anderson replied with "Sidious and Exar Kun have to fight". So it's either Kun or Sidious from Anderson perspective.

Then we have another e-mail from Veitch stating that Ragnos is Anderson's creation. So unless you want to tell me that Sadow is stronger then Ragnos (which would make no sense at all) I guess we have to go with Kun > Ancient Sith because Anderson didn't think about Ragnos or Sadow to be the most powerful. Of course this is only Anderson's opinion.



What "raw power" are you talking about ? Physical strength ? That's very well possible - but the same would be true for Cathar and we saw Kun pushing Sylvar on her knees with one hand. Force power (throwing bricks) ? No. To be precise Ragnos and Sadow thing that the original "Jedi blood" (from the Dark Jedi that joined the Sith Empire) is more powerful than the "Sith blood".



Excuse me. Stating the oposite is equally inconclusive due to lack of proof...At least we know that Kun had everything Sadow knew + his own lightsaber skills (which were enough to defeat Vodo before) + whatever he learned in terms of Jedi powers before he joined the Dark Side. So it's indeed more likely that Kun > Sadow then vice versa.



Did you see an Ancient Sith freezing massive amounts of people ? I didn't - could be Kun's "invention".



Another illogical conclusion. People learned from the Ancient Sith because they were the "inventors" of most Dark Side knowledge. It's impossible not to learn from them but that doesn't exactly mean that they were naturally the most powerful. You can "learn" how to build Pyramids from the Ancient Egypt - doesn't mean you can't do it better than they did 5,000 years later.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No dude swirly girl is right. Do you understand physics? There's a difference between let's say having a brick fall off and smack you on the head, giving you a concussion at best, and having someone chuck a brick at your face at full speed, and either severely brain damaging you, or crushing your skull.

Are you talking to me or Blax?

A few things here. Kun perhaps DID have everything from Sadow, but unless you are saying Kun learned everything that Sadow learned in his life, in 1 year, it's safe to assume that he did in fact NOT learn everything that Sadow had to offer, no? And yes, it might have been Anderson's opinion, but I fail to see how it is relevant here. Again I'll mention it, for all you know he could have been talking about accomplishments, not actual force abilities/raw power(again I don't know). And there's nothing to suggest the freezing thing was Kun's invention, as it was called an "ancient sith spell" or "sith spell". Regardless, it MIGHT have been one of his inventions but not likely, I would assume he learned it from Sadow's notes. And your thing about the ancient sith was my point, since they were the originals and all that(could mean they were the most powerful, could mean otherwise), but the fact remains that everybody learned from them, and some of their ancient techniques were even lost within those 5,000 years, meaning just because they came 5,000 years BBY doesn't mean the dark side users got progressively better, because we actually see the opposite(with the exception of Sidious).

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
Dude, getting a brick thrown directly at your head can kill you. I'm guessing you're either lying, or the brick hardly made any contact with your head whatsoever.

Now, notice the key word.

Can. I'm lucky that it didn't.

The thing is, you're acting as if it did nothing except give you a tiny bruise.
Any damage to the head that can cause bleeding though impact almost always at least gives you a concussion.

Nebaris, I explained physics to you.

The thing is td, you're not too smart. About 90% of the time, damage that can lead to bleeding through impact (not through a scratch or anything but impact) tends to produce at least a concussion.

Well, technically those dark side techniques could've come from the Lettow or Ajunta Pall and his ilk.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
The thing is td, you're not too smart. About 90% of the time, damage that can lead to bleeding through impact (not through a scratch or anything but impact) tends to produce at least a concussion.



Gee I thought you DIDNT call me td? Or is that a defense mechanism for anger? Learn physics. The bigger the speed of a brick coming at you, the more damage it will cause.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Gee I thought you DIDNT call me td? Or is that a defense mechanism for anger? Learn physics. The bigger the speed of a brick coming at you, the more damage it will cause.

Firstly, that is basic stuff. Secondly, where did I dispute that. Thirdly, all that you showed in that particular post and the majority of your other posts is that your reading comprehension sucks.

You didn't seem to understand what swirly was saying.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
A few things here. Kun perhaps DID have everything from Sadow, but unless you are saying Kun learned everything that Sadow learned in his life, in 1 year, it's safe to assume that he did in fact NOT learn everything that Sadow had to offer, no?

There's also the fact he took scrolls from Nadd's tomb, presumably had twenty plus years of Jedi training, and also plundered Ossus, in which the narration described it as "more wealth and knowledge than Exar Kun can ever hope to use".



How is it irrelevant exactly? The man owns Ragnos, he and Veitch created TOTJ. He said Exar Kun > Ancient Sith once before I believe (Lightsnake emailed him before this), and then he says either Exar Kun or Sidious would have to fight for the title of strongest, implying Exar Kun > Ancient Sith. The man has the right authority to make the call, too, seeing as TOTJ is credited mostly to him (and Veitch).



What? He said Exar Kun and Sidious would have to fight, not stand up on a podium and talk about accomplishments. We already know who the greatest Sith Lord is - that's Sidious, that's a definite. It's illogical to assume he meant accomplishments when Sidious outweighs everyone (taking down Republic, ruling the galaxy - the true Sith goal). He was talking about them in terms of combat.



You can't assume anything, and no - it was called exactly "Exar Kun's Sith spell":

http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/8182/exarsithspell2xyb1.th.jpg

And why is it not likely? Notice he realizes what Sadow's alchemy and magic can do, so he plans on mastering it:

http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/1097/kunsithmasterzj9.th.jpg

I'd say a master of Sith magic and alchemy is very capable of creating their own spells, and the like.



They clearly weren't the most powerful as you'd like to think.



We see the opposite? I see Exar Kun raining destruction upon everything he touches. We see Nihilus draining entire worlds full of Jedi, and Kreia instakilling three Jedi Masters. We see Lord Kaan use the Thought Bomb to utterly wipe out everyone on Ruusan, save for Bane and Zannah. And of course, we see Sidious destroying entire fleets.

Originally posted by Escape81
I love you.

See my Antithesis of Ragnos Owns All thread in the EU section.

Lol.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama

There's also the fact he took scrolls from Nadd's tomb, presumably had twenty plus years of Jedi training, and also plundered Ossus, in which the narration described it as "more wealth and knowledge than Exar Kun can ever hope to use".

And for some reason there's a huge debate between how much he studied, because lightsnake claims he didn't get to study any of it, and I claimed that the only thing he had to study was the holocron, so unless you can quantify how much studied from those scrolls, then the point is irrelevant.

How is it irrelevant exactly? The man owns Ragnos, he and Veitch created TOTJ. He said Exar Kun > Ancient Sith once before I believe (Lightsnake emailed him before this), and then he says either Exar Kun or Sidious would have to fight for the title of strongest, implying Exar Kun > Ancient Sith. The man has the right authority to make the call, too, seeing as TOTJ is credited mostly to him (and Veitch).

You're going to have to show me that email again because I remember it having absoutely nothing to do with the ancient sith, infact I remember him saying we can't really character x from his time to character y from his time. Yes he did mention Exar Kun was the most powerful of his time, but what does this say for the ancient sith?


You can't assume anything, and no - it was called exactly "Exar Kun's Sith spell":

Ah yes Sama, so when in the Star Wars novels "Palpatine unleashed his force lightning", apparently he invented it by your logic right?


And why is it not likely? Notice he realizes what Sadow's alchemy and magic can do, so he plans on mastering it:

Oh ok, so you have conclusive proof or ANY proof that he mastered it?


I'd say a master of Sith magic and alchemy is very capable of creating their own spells, and the like.:

Oh, like what did he create?


They clearly weren't the most powerful as you'd like to think.

That's debateable Sama..

We see the opposite? I see Exar Kun raining destruction upon everything he touches. We see Nihilus draining entire worlds, and Kreia instakilling three Jedi Masters. We see Lord Kaan use the Thought Bomb to utterly wipe out everyone on Ruusan, save for Bane and Zannah. And of course, we see Sidious destroying entire fleets.

Ok and? What is your point? We see Ragnos' scepter instill force abilities in non force sensitives, doing what Nihilus did, etc. We see Sadow using Sith magic from his ship to tear out the core from the sun. What is your point with what Kreia does? She uses Nihilus' technique on a much smaller scale. Where do you think she learned that? Wasn't she on Malachor V, a storage for ancient sith knowledge? Hmm, it appears there's a lot of proof(not as conclusive as I would like it to be) that the ancient sith were indeed very powerful.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You didn't seem to understand what swirly was saying.

I hadn't even made a post in this thread after Swirly posted until you started 'explaining physics' to me. So dude, seriously, what are you talking about?

'Ah yes Sama, so when in the Star Wars novels "Palpatine unleashed his force lightning", apparently he invented it by your logic right?'

lol

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
And for some reason there's a huge debate between how much he studied, because lightsnake claims he didn't get to study any of it, and I claimed that the only thing he had to study was the holocron, so unless you can quantify how much studied from those scrolls, then the point is irrelevant.

http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/3365/tswopeningtd0.th.jpg

Considering Exar Kun landed on Yavin 4 before Cay even confronted Ulic, and the Jedi weren't above Kun's base before Mandalore was finished the battle on Onderon - I'm inclined to say he had a few hours actually, and with what we know Kun can do in a few months, I'd say he had time to study some of the material actually - I doubt he just threw it aside aimlessly.

As well, I guess his Jedi training, and stuff he got from Nadd is irrelevant, too then? No.



Exar Kun is in the same comic series as the Ancient Sith, and you'll have to ask Lightsnake for the email. As well, you seem to also forgot that he said Exar Kun and Palpatine would have to fight for the title, not Ragnos, not Sadow, not Kressh, but Exar friggin' Kun.



There's conclusive proof that people before Sidious knew Force lightning. This is not the case with Exar Kun, and there's actually reason to even think he did create it.

So, to answer your question: No. Next time you try and respond, at least make sure you know what you're saying, okay? Just some advice.



What? I, unlike you, have logical deduction. Exar Kun was working with this:

http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/889/kunsithalchemyye1.th.jpg

"A trove of equipment", and as well:

http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/2307/kunsithmasteryw5.th.jpg

He said that Sadow's magic and alchemy would destroy him unless he mastered it. As we can see: he wasn't destroyed.

So, let me pose the question to you: Do you have any conclusive evidence that he learned it from Sadow? No? Okay then - you see how it works both ways?



What? I said he's capable of creating his own spells, ergo it's very possible the spell he used on the Senate was his (as it says exactly "Exar Kun's (possessive) Sith spell". But, I suppose I can show you what else he did create:

http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/2248/zythmnr1qm1.th.jpg

Zythmnr - Massassi priest - turned into this:

http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/7879/zythmnrtransformedph4.th.jpg

Using Sith alchemy, he was able to transform a Massassi into what was described by narration as "monstrousity, beast of war, malformed servant of death" and "alchemy that can make a warrior into a god".



Yes, and so far any debate from your side has been led to slaughter.



Which Ancient Sith? You can't even say for sure, and you cannot assume "all" have those powers because it'd be illogical to think Sadow can instakill anybody, he cannot do what Nihilus does, as it seems - only Ragnos' sceptor (technology) has that power. And as we see in KOTOR, apparently there is no more need for an item as Nihilus does it without anything. So, perhaps later generations further develop Ancient Sith powers.

On top of that, you realize that it's likely the Legions of Lettow created some techniques, too?



How's that funny again? The point he was trying to make was rendered invalid. LOLOLO!!!>!!?!WS///ELEVNEON!@!!?E

Kun didn't have time to study the holocron or what he got from Ossus...he barely had enough time to store what he got from Ossus. His escape and Cay's death happened within minutes of eachother.

Moreover, Kun also created two-headed avians, the Golden Globe, mutant massassi, Battle Hydras...and the Terentatek

Actually, I don't think that he created the Terentatek. I think that the person in the enclave mentioned that they were creations of the ancient sith.

The NEC lists them as his I believe

I'm sure they were creations of the Ancient Sith. I don't have KotOR on hand, so if anyone could check; I'd be grateful. I could be wrong, or the NEC could have messed up.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Kun didn't have time to study the holocron or what he got from Ossus...he barely had enough time to store what he got from Ossus. His escape and Cay's death happened within minutes of eachother.

Uh, Lightsnake, you realize Kun got on his ship before Ulic and Cay even started the battle right? About five or so pages before they even started. As well, the opening narration of The Sith War states that Exar landed on Yavin 4 before Cay even confronted Ulic:

http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/5305/tswopeningqi4.th.jpg

"Kun takes his booty and escapes to his secret base on Yavin Four. After downing the Nebulon Ranger, Ulic confronts Cay in the wreckage." And also, Kun did plan on studying what he got from Ossus:

http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/289/spoilsofwarrn3.th.jpg

"Come, back to our base on Yavin Four to study the spoils of war!" - Exar Kun.

As well, the Jedi weren't even above Yavin Four until the battle on Onderon was finished.

Or Kun genetically altered them like he did with some massassi

Like I said, the confrontation between Cay and Ulic happened minutes after Kun departed the planet.
Sure, Kun planned on studying it, but he never got the opportunity.

I don't see how he could. It's not mentioned in KotOR that the Terentatek were even created, and I can remember it being implied that they were native species to Korriban.

Well, the NEC lists them as his creations. One way or another, they're sithspawn, though

Meh, I'll have to wait until I can get my hands on KotOR; but I'm pretty sure that the NEC is mistaken.

Or it's a retcon

Nah, there would be no need for it. I don't see the point of any supposed retcon on the Terentatek's origins. The NEC has been mistaken before.

I'm pretty sure Wallace listed the errors on his blog

How could KOTOR hold precedent over the NEC anyways? They are both C-canon, and the NEC came out after both KOTOR games.

But wouldn't a retcon have been announced?

Or, I could just be wrong. But I'm pretty sure that they've existed before.

Rather than overwrite things, LFL's first preference is usually to hammer out the links into a smooth line.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
How could KOTOR hold precedent over the NEC anyways? They are both C-canon, and the NEC came out after both KOTOR games.

KotOR being the source material for the matter at hand?

Or the fact that a retcon would be unecessary and hasn't been announced (to my knowledge)?

And the NEC has had minor errors relating to the KotOR era beforehand.

The NEC is written from an in-universe perceptive. So you could in a way say that the narrator is a fallible 3rd person, so it shouldn't really be able to dispute any earlier sources.

That's because Dan admitted he didn't play the game before writing it...the only one I can actually recall was 'Darth KReia'

Yeah, he claimed that there was a Darth Kreia as well as a Darth Traya.

Yeah, that was an error he admitted

The thing about the NEC is that there is an in-universe narrator, Voen Na'al who has basically uncovered a bunch of data caches and has written an entire book on them, The New Essential Chronology. Therefor, it shouldn't be able to retcon any earlier sources such as KotOR, as you can just say that the data caches were unreliable or incomplete for instance. Makes sense?

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Considering Exar Kun landed on Yavin 4 before Cay even confronted Ulic, and the Jedi weren't above Kun's base before Mandalore was finished the battle on Onderon - I'm inclined to say he had a few hours actually, and with what we know Kun can do in a few months, I'd say he had time to study some of the material actually - I doubt he just threw it aside aimlessly

As well, I guess his Jedi training, and stuff he got from Nadd is irrelevant, too then? No.

Ok Sama, so you THINK he had a few hours to study, which could be logical for sure, but can you quantify that time in terms of his power? I don't think so.



Exar Kun is in the same comic series as the Ancient Sith, and you'll have to ask Lightsnake for the email. As well, you seem to also forgot that he said Exar Kun and Palpatine would have to fight for the title, not Ragnos, not Sadow, not Kressh, but Exar friggin' Kun.

Fight for what title, there was nothing about "fighting for the most powerful sith lord". As I recall he said it would be interesting to see who would be the more powerful one. And you mention they are in the same comic series Sama, but I can counter that by saying the ancient sith were extinct by Kun's time, so that wouldn't include him obviously. I believe Freedon Nadd was the last one?



There's conclusive proof that people before Sidious knew Force lightning. This is not the case with Exar Kun, and there's actually reason to even think he did create it.

Again, it COULD be, but there's no conclusive evidence to suggest that he did. For all you know he could have studied Sadow's teachings and learned the technique from there, it's inconclusive.

So, to answer your question: No. Next time you try and respond, at least make sure you know what you're saying, okay? Just some advice.

Uh, I was responding to your exact text so I know what I was saying. Your text wasn't ambiguous, you clearly made it seem like it was his because it was described as "his sith spell", so I gave you an example of how this is invalid..

What? I, unlike you, have logical deduction. Exar Kun was working with this:

http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/889/kunsithalchemyye1.th.jpg

"A trove of equipment", and as well:

http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/2307/kunsithmasteryw5.th.jpg

Um ok? I'm glad you think you have logical deduction and I don't? You're entitled to your own opinion so don't let little old me rain on your parade.

He said that Sadow's magic and alchemy would destroy him unless he mastered it. As we can see: he wasn't destroyed.

So, let me pose the question to you: Do you have any conclusive evidence that he learned it from Sadow? No? Okay then - you see how it works both ways?

I'm sorry what? Kun's personal opinion(obviously somewhat credible but to an extent since he obviously didn't know enough about what he was getting himself into to make a conclusive statement) was that he would be destroyed if he didn't master it. Your proof that he mastered it was that he wasn't destroyed? How about the possibility that he didn't master it, nor learned everything? Hmm. And as for your next point about him creating a beast with sith alchemy, he didn't create the priest, he "improved" the priest USING Sadow's teachings, so how is that a creation?





Which Ancient Sith? You can't even say for sure, and you cannot assume "all" have those powers because it'd be illogical to think Sadow can instakill anybody, he cannot do what Nihilus does, as it seems - only Ragnos' sceptor (technology) has that power. And as we see in KOTOR, apparently there is no more need for an item as Nihilus does it without anything. So, perhaps later generations further develop Ancient Sith powers.

On top of that, you realize that it's likely the Legions of Lettow created some techniques, too?

Which ancient sith? When the ancient sith are mentioned, it would be anywhere between 6900 BBY and 5000 BBY I'm assuming? And I didn't assume ALL those powers came from them, but which powers didn't come from them Sama? I'm assuming the force lightning came from the first dark jedi, while other powers such as force drain, force storm, force crush, blasts, etc came from the ancient sith. We see nothing new created aside from Sidious' stuff. And again, Sadow might have known the technique and he might not have. Are you saying Ragnos DIDNT know the technique yet somehow put it into his scepter? That's interesting. And if Ragnos knew it, there's a chance other powerful ancient sith knew it too, but it is stated by Kreia(who is a credible source as far as a historian) that it was derived from the ancient sith.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Ok Sama, so you THINK he had a few hours to study, which could be logical for sure, but can you quantify that time in terms of his power? I don't think so.

What does it matter? We seem to have gotten off the actual subject of this response: You were saying Sadow knows more than Exar Kun. I'm saying Exar Kun has Sadow's notes, Nadd's scrolls and training, and his own Jedi training (for presumably twenty some years).



As I've said, ask Lightsnake for the email or look it up. I didn't email him.



You said it's unlikely that Exar created it himself, I'm saying that it's very likely that he did, and I gave proof as to why it is likely. We're not arguing conclusively, we're arguing possibilities. You realize that all versus matches are inconclusive really, right?



No, if you understood the difference between the things surrounding Exar Kun's spell, and Sidious' Force lightning - you'd realize your response is invalid, as I already explained.



Sexy, as much as you like to think your the "king shit" of logic, you're really not. You claim to use logic when debating Lightsnake, I really only saw fallacious ad hominem responses on your part (so did Lightsnake, but he actual provided a reasonable argument).



What the hell are you talking about? It's logical to assume he did master it, because he states that's what he is going to do. I suppose when Exar Kun says he's going to "study the spoils of war!", he's not planning on doing it?

And it would seem he did master it, seeing as he froze the Galactic Senate against their will, and "forced them to watch" - that would include most likely include thousands of beings, and the place was filled to the brim.



No, he "sought to create monstrosities, beasts of war, malformed servants of death...and so does Exar Kun" unless you want to argue with narration:

http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/4744/malformedrp9.th.jpg

You were saying?

And according to the New Essential Chronology as well, he also was "creating freakish two-headed avians and hulking terentateks that thirsted after Force-rich blood." Care to argue with the NEC, and actual source material now?



So, it's a possibility it could've been developed 7,000 BBY and lost after that?



O RLY?



In response to me saying "So the Ancient Sith know all techniques", this implies that all techniques came from the Ancient Sith aside from Sidious' storm, and we have two more, in which you seem to think "all" did derive from them:






Why are you continuously asking me to prove something you've yet to even list?



So the first Dark Jedi created Force lightning, but the rest were created by the Ancient Sith? I'm inclined to believe most of the aforementioned were created by the Legions of Lettow, or any other Dark Jedi before the Ancient Sith. So, is your assumption more valid? No, it's not.



And? Are you saying it's not possible that the Ancient Sith just got started on the beginnings of these techniques, and as they further progressed down the ages - they improved?

According to wookie on Force powers, there's about five that don't have roots from the Ancient Sith (though I'm not sure how legit. these powers since they are from wookie), most of them come from Jedi Knight: Dark Forces/II, but one comes from Rokur Gepta called "torture by chagrin". And Lord Kaan and other Sith developed the "Thought Bomb".

And also, you're assuming that because the Ancient Sith might've created some of these techniques, that they mastered them fully, and are the most powerful at doing so. This would be incorrect to assume, because looking at it in our world - it could be the equivalent to the first person who built a single shot gun, now we have machine guns and automatics for Christ's sakes.



And? Since it's an unknown, you cannot use it in any battles, so I don't even know why you try to argue it. My entire point was just that: it's unknown, ergo we can't use it at all.



Ragnos without the sceptor? I'm inclined to say yes. It's the equivalent to you acknowledging that Sadow cannot blow up stars without his ship, or Exar Kun shooting laser beams out of his ass without his amulet. Are you saying that Sadow or Kun can do either of those things without their equipment? That's interesting.



Yes, "derived". It could just be partially developed into technology, and furthered by later generations.

Motoko, you and Swirly Girl are the loves of my life. Marry me. :P

(we'll convince Rex to marry us as well).

How could I ever say no to someone like you?



Most excellent.

You couldn't. Because I turn you on, deeply. And you're madly in love with me.



If not, I'll beat him with a watermelon.

'No, he "sought to create monstrosities, beasts of war, malformed servants of death...and so does Exar Kun" unless you want to argue with narration:'

It could be argued that he created monstrosities out of these civilised beings.

'How's that funny again? The point he was trying to make was rendered invalid. LOLOLO!!!>!!?!WS///ELEVNEON!@!!?E'

Hold up, aren't you the person who's going wild with laughter at Escapes 'jokes'? Yet you're picking up on why I lold at something Sexy said? Interesting...

And the point that he was trying to make wasn't rendered invalid.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
'How's that funny again? The point he was trying to make was rendered invalid. LOLOLO!!!>!!?!WS///ELEVNEON!@!!?E'

Hold up, aren't you the person who's going wild with laughter at Escapes 'jokes'? Yet you're picking up on why I lold at something Sexy said? Interesting...

And the point that he was trying to make wasn't rendered invalid.

It's because she loves me, and I'm funny.

Because Escape's 'jokes' are just that. They are not in league with a point (at least what I think your talking about). And even so, if they are, they are at least made correctly.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
And the point that he was trying to make wasn't rendered invalid.

I said what the Sith spell was exactly described as, I didn't say "since it's possessive form, it was definitly his", so his response was rendered invalid. Also, his response was about Sidious' Force lightning, which we already know wasn't created by Sidious himself; we don't know if Exar Kun's Sith spell was already created or not - therefore what he used was invalid. You can argue because I bolded the 'apostrophe s', that it was valid, however, all I was pointing out that it wasn't called an "Ancient Sith spell" as he said.

You forgot that you find me funny simply because you love me. :P

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
What does it matter? We seem to have gotten off the actual subject of this response: You were saying Sadow knows more than Exar Kun. I'm saying Exar Kun has Sadow's notes, Nadd's scrolls and training, and his own Jedi training (for presumably twenty some years).


You said it's unlikely that Exar created it himself, I'm saying that it's very likely that he did, and I gave proof as to why it is likely. We're not arguing conclusively, we're arguing possibilities. You realize that all versus matches are inconclusive really, right?

Knowing Sadow's notes, Jedi training and Nadd's notes somehow surpasses a lifetime of training during the apex of the sith power? Unlikely, although inconclusive.



Sexy, as much as you like to think your the "king shit" of logic, you're really not. You claim to use logic when debating Lightsnake, I really only saw fallacious ad hominem responses on your part (so did Lightsnake, but he actual provided a reasonable argument).
Where the hell did this come from? I would assume an illogical assumption is a logical fallacy too, since you're pointing them out. And why are you bringing him in there, the only reason I said it was a lightsnake type of argument because your point was irrelevant. Please don't start getting angry over a star wars forum and accusing me of nonsense. Yes Sama, lightsnake provided a reasonable argument but I didn't, right.. Moving on.



What the hell are you talking about? It's logical to assume he did master it, because he states that's what he is going to do. I suppose when Exar Kun says he's going to "study the spoils of war!", he's not planning on doing it?

I'm sorry Sama how is that logical. Because he said he was going to do it? Wow, then Sadow should have conquered the Republic because "he said he was going to do it". Right.

And it would seem he did master it, seeing as he froze the Galactic Senate against their will, and "forced them to watch" - that would include most likely include thousands of beings, and the place was filled to the brim.

What? That means he mastered it, because he learned a sith spell? How in the world does that mean he mastered it, as opposed to mastering maybe an aspect of that. Was Joruus an uber force god because he did what Kun did on a grander scale? I didn't think so, thanks.


No, he "sought to create monstrosities, beasts of war, malformed servants of death...and so does Exar Kun" unless you want to argue with narration:

http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/4744/malformedrp9.th.jpg

You were saying?

Please learn the difference between "invented" and "created", no offense.

And according to the New Essential Chronology as well, he also was "creating freakish two-headed avians and hulking terentateks that thirsted after Force-rich blood." Care to argue with the NEC, and actual source material now?
No, I'm arguing with the comic that he was actually in, not the NEC, and again learn the difference between invent and create, because it just proves my point. Unless of course you think Kun "invented" all of these terrible beasts..


In response to me saying "So the Ancient Sith know all techniques", this implies that all techniques came from the Ancient Sith aside from Sidious' storm, and we have two more, in which you seem to think "all" did derive from them:

Show me where I said the ancient sith know all techniques, because I'm curious as to when I said it?




So the first Dark Jedi created Force lightning, but the rest were created by the Ancient Sith? I'm inclined to believe most of the aforementioned were created by the Legions of Lettow, or any other Dark Jedi before the Ancient Sith. So, is your assumption more valid? No, it's not.

Except we know nothing that was created by the ancient sith, but we know the certain most powerful techniques were derived from the ancient sith, so my assumption is more logical because there's backing for it, unless again you think Kreia is a fallible 3rd party character while discussing history.



And? Are you saying it's not possible that the Ancient Sith just got started on the beginnings of these techniques, and as they further progressed down the ages - they improved?

It's possible but again what does the term "derived from the ancient sith" mean?

According to wookie on Force powers, there's about five that don't have roots from the Ancient Sith (though I'm not sure how legit. these powers since they are from wookie), most of them come from Jedi Knight: Dark Forces/II, but one comes from Rokur Gepta called "torture by chagrin". And Lord Kaan and other Sith developed the "Thought Bomb".

Not sure about the origins of the thought bomb.

And also, you're assuming that because the Ancient Sith might've created some of these techniques, that they mastered them fully, and are the most powerful at doing so. This would be incorrect to assume, because looking at it in our world - it could be the equivalent to the first person who built a single shot gun, now we have machine guns and automatics for Christ's sakes.

Just as it is incorrect to assume that they're nothing without their amulets, and that they are average or above average at best.




Ragnos without the sceptor? I'm inclined to say yes. It's the equivalent to you acknowledging that Sadow cannot blow up stars without his ship, or Exar Kun shooting laser beams out of his ass without his amulet. Are you saying that Sadow or Kun can do either of those things without their equipment? That's interesting.

No, because certain techniques need the aid of amulets, but we see Nihilus and Kreia using the same technique, and since it was derived from the ancient sith, and since Kreia studied and learned from Malachor V, it is logical to assume the ancient sith knew the technique with or without the scepter.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Knowing Sadow's notes, Jedi training and Nadd's notes somehow surpasses a lifetime of training during the apex of the sith power? Unlikely, although inconclusive.

As is everything we're arguing.



Illogical assumption? Do you need to be reminded of what you said every post? Well, here it is. And everyone agrees - you commit ad hominem.



Actually, it was completely relevant. You just don't accept anything that puts a negative light on your side.



I know it's right. Again, do you need to be reminded what happened?



Sorry, there's a difference as usual. Sadow didn't conquer the Republic, there's nothing that says Exar didn't master Sith alchemy and magic. On the contrary, it would seem he did as he created avians, terentateks, "super" Massassi, and so on.



Considering the scale of which he did it, it would seem he did master it. And if you are acknowledging he mastered an "aspect" of it, why not assume he mastered everything Sadow had?



Joruus never actually performed the action. He'd only thought he'd be able to. As well, it required his active concentration as opposed to Kun was able to control the Chancellor, move about freely, and strike down Vodo while still having the Senate under his control.



Please remember what you said, and what I was directly responding to:





You originally said "how is that a creation?" - keyword: creation. So, I don't even understand what the hell you're trying to do here, but I'll just assume it's a GM tactic.



Damn, you really can't read can you:

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
O RLY?

Can you tell me of any darkside techniques that DIDNT derive from them with the exception of the force storm which did derive from them but was perfected by Sidious? hmm..

In response to me saying "So the Ancient Sith know all techniques", this implies that all techniques came from the Ancient Sith aside from Sidious' storm, and we have two more, in which you seem to think "all" did derive from them.




Sadly, there's only two techniques that are said to derive from the Ancient Sith, and you were saying that "all, if not most, come from the Ancients"...so, how does two techniques having roots from the Ancient Sith mean they created/knew them all?



"Derived" could mean simply just having stemmed from, ergo later generations could've improved on them. And there's only two that came from them definitely, so again what does that mean? It sure as hell doesn't mean they created all or even most of the techniques.



Wow, can you answer the actual point instead of skirting off in a different direction perhaps? I'd appreciate it. And, when did I say they were "nothing" without their amulets? Oh? I didn't? Okay, quit making shit up then.

Okay, the Ancient Sith are above average and powerful, but they are less impressive because they used amulets/Sith technology.

That's it. I didn't say they are nothing, or even average. I said above average and powerful.



The only one apparently is shooting beams out of your ass.



And? Are you saying it's illogical to assume they further developed upon it? It's not illogical, therefore you cannot just say 'they knew it!'. To what degree did they know it exactly?

'I'm sorry Sama how is that logical. Because he said he was going to do it? Wow, then Sadow should have conquered the Republic because "he said he was going to do it". Right.'

I agree with this point.

'No, because certain techniques need the aid of amulets, but we see Nihilus and Kreia using the same technique, and since it was derived from the ancient sith, and since Kreia studied and learned from Malachor V, it is logical to assume the ancient sith knew the technique with or without the scepter.'

However, it isn't logical to assume that they could use the technique with the same effectiveness or magnitude.

And, Sexy, I'm still waiting for your reply on this:

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Well, Sexy, let's see: you've yet to tell me how there was a defense for it.

And anyways, as I've stated: what does this have to do with anything? We've never seen the Ancient Sith do anything like Nihilus has (without use of technology), and if, in fact, they did know it - they'd wipe themselves to extinction since it's natural, and apparently no defense other than being a wound in the Force. On top of the fact, they would've pwned the Republic. But - as I've said - they didn't, and were killed or rather wiped off the face of the galaxy. And, still this is irrelevant because Sadow doesn't possess Ragnos' sceptor.



You're so ridiculous, and ignorant. Your entire argument is based off things we:

1.) Don't know.
2.) Never see.
3.) Know are ridiculous.

And "guessing" it's irrelevant? Oh god, I contribute more to this forum than you ever have. I present more logical arguments in a single thread than you have your entire posting history, and I also can tear anything you give to me to shreds. If anyone should be claiming that an argument is irrelevant, it should be me...tell me again - what does Nihilus' technique being derived from the Ancient Sith have to do with anything?

She never says Naga Sadow knew it, she never said Ludo Kressh knew it, she never said Marka Ragnos knew it. For all we know (and that's about nothing), it could've been developed in 7,000 BBY and lost until Nihilus came around. So here, in fact, any argument you're trying to make collapses.

Which was to be demonstrated.



So Marka Ragnos knew Force lightning? He knew Force choke? No, you can't say any of those Ancient Sith have any of those abilities at all. How do you know they weren't derived from the first Dark Jedi, hm? Oh? You don't? I figured as much.

She never says Naga Sadow knew it, she never said Ludo Kressh knew it, she never said Marka Ragnos knew it. For all we know (and that's about nothing), it could've been developed in 7,000 BBY and lost until Nihilus came around. So here, in fact, any argument you're trying to make collapses!

That applies for all techniques said to be "derived" from the Ancient Sith.

And really, can you say 'irrelevant'? Simply because Marka Ragnos' sceptor does what Nihilus can do, doesn't mean Marka Ragnos can do it too (without his scepter), or any other Ancient Sith. So, basically, you're arguing irrelevant bullshit that doesn't even matter in this fight.



Okay, the Ancient Sith are above average and powerful, but they are less impressive because they used amulets/Sith technology. Sadow doesn't have his ship in this fight, Sadow has his amulets, and so does Kun? What the f*ck is your point exactly, Sexy? You haven't even proved how Exar Kun or Yoda is going to lose to Sadow.

What the f*ck does Ragnos' sceptor (not Sadow's) have to do with anything in this fight? What the f*ck does Sadow's ship have to do with anything in this fight?

Short answer: Nothing. Sadow cannot shoot beams out of his ass, and he cannot create solar manipulations without his ship. So, as I've been saying all along, how is any of this relevant?

We cannot assume Sadow has Force lightning, we cannot assume he has Force whatever, whatever because he hasn't shown us it. And it's illogical to assume such, because there could be an explanation for it.



What are you talking about? It's completely relevant.

Let me explain this to you easy,

Sadow. Is. Not. Capable. Of. Blowing. Up. A. Star. Without. His. Ship

So, you saying "z0mg h3's ub3r p0werfu1 b3caus3 h3 cr3ated it!" is stupid as hell to assume. And what the hell

"because the abilities within those amulets are unmatched anywhere else"

What exactly does this statement say? I mean, I went to a bilingual school for English and Japanese. I even know Mandarin, yet surprisingly I cannot understand gibberish.

I'll just copy and paste about the amulets only doing three things:

1.) Produce Dragonball Z blasts

The Ancient Sith cannot produce the same blasts without the amulets, that's ridiculous. If they could, they would've owned everybody and the Republic, too.

2.) Destroy spirits

Irrelevant really, I don't see how destroying spirits even speaks for their power unless Tionne and the other apprentices who banished Exar Kun are suddenly Force gods at age twelve and under.

3.) Carry messages down to the future

Irrelevant really in this fight.

They do not hold anymore "techniques", the amulets do those three things. The amulets do not produce Force lightning, they do not Force grip people. The only thing Sadow can use is the blasts, which we've only seen demonstrated by Exar anyways.

Now, I'm going to move onto my next point:

Even if "all/most" Darkside techniques are derived from the Ancient Sith (and that's bullshit anyways, but we'll work with it) that doesn't mean jack really. Simply because they created them, they are the best at those techniques? The most powerful at using them? No.

It could be the equivalent to how our world works: Someone created a single shot gun ages ago, now today you see we've produce machine guns, and automatic weapons, etc. So, actually it could be the Ancient Sith only worked at the beginnings (as it would seem since it says "derived", ergo it doesn't mean they are the most powerful at using them.

Also, I'd like you to prove that all Darkside techniques are derived from the Ancient Sith, since you seem so fond on doing it.



Irrelevant, and a typical tdtd quote. Also, it wasn't irrelevant, you dolt. If you understood the question, possibly you'd know that.



You can try, Sexy, but as usual - it will just be countered again, and slaughtered by yours truly.



LOL! That was your counter? Firstly, let me say that I wasn't aware Sidious could just walk around draining people, shoot laser beams out of his ass, and knew all Darkside techniques.

Secondly, he didn't "get beat by a machine". I guess you didn't watch ROTJ? He was busy owning Luke, while his loyal apprentice for the past twenty years betrayed him, and caught him off guard. This differs from the Ancient Sith because they were IN. A. WAR. They were prepared, and knew what was coming.

Thirdly, he was only beaten when the combined powers of Luke Skywalker (the most powerful being in Star Wars), Leia, and her fetus used their strength to shield Sidious from the Darkside or something like that, and thus he was left unable to control the storm and it owned him.

Fourth, you can quit the downplaying, and bad logic - it's not helping.



Oh god, can we say "contradiction" - if they aren't intelligent how the f*ck did they "develop all Darkside techniques"? I guess they are just a primitive race of imbeciles then, eh? It takes intelligence to develop techniques. They don't just wave their hands around, and a new technique comes to them.



Again:





I shouldn't have to tell you which didn't because we don't know. God damn this is an easy argument.

Better question: can you tell me which techniques did come from the Ancient Sith? Then also tell me which Sith knew them, and if they could've been developed 7,000 BBY and lost among the ages?

You've yet to specify which techniques came from them, so I really shouldn't have to tell you which didn't as it's up to you to do that. You sure as hell know logic, eh?

'Sadow. Is. Not. Capable. Of. Blowing. Up. A. Star. Without. His. Ship'

Yes, he is. He displays this in a holocron in DLOTS. I love how people forget this fact.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
As is everything we're arguing.



Illogical assumption? Do you need to be reminded of what you said every post? Well, here it is. And everyone agrees - you commit ad hominem.

I'm not concerned with everyone, I'm not arguing with everyone, i'm arguing with you. Just because everybody says it doesn't make it true, now please show me where I am committing ad hominem here and how I think I'm the king shit? Not to mention, while we're pointing out logical fallacies, should I point out appeal to majority?

Actually, it was completely relevant. You just don't accept anything that puts a negative light on your side.

Your assumption, nothing more. I could possibly say the same thing for you.





I'm sorry, but you stated that because Kun said he was going to do something, that he did. So I'm making yet another counter argument about how any character in the SW galaxy can say he is going to do something and not do it, it is completely relevant. And do I have to explain to you that he studied Sadow's teachings, and part of sith alchemy was altering beasts and what not. So Kun reading Sadow's teachings on sith alchemy and alteration, and then creating a beast from those teachings, says absolutely nothing of it being HIS invention, sorry.

Considering the scale of which he did it, it would seem he did master it. And if you are acknowledging he mastered an "aspect" of it, why not assume he mastered everything Sadow had?

Because we don't know how much of Sadow's teachings he studied, and how much he had? So why would it be logical to assume he learned everything because he learned technique X?

Joruus never actually performed the action. He'd only thought he'd be able to. As well, it required his active concentration as opposed to Kun was able to control the Chancellor, move about freely, and strike down Vodo while still having the Senate under his control.

Excuse me? Joruus DID control an entire fleet, he did it on a much GRANDER scale. What is your point about Kun moving around freely? Notice it was a different technique, obviously Joruus' wasn't a sith spell, but the point was that someone did what Kun did on a much grander scale, and yet it's not logical to assume that he>Kun.


Damn, you really can't read can you:

Damn, you really are getting riled up. Perhaps instead of saying that I insult people and think I'm the king shit, you should take a look at your random angry comments, since I have made virtually none towards you?


Sadly, there's only two techniques that are said to derive from the Ancient Sith, and you were saying that "all, if not most, come from the Ancients"...so, how does two techniques having roots from the Ancient Sith mean they created/knew them all?

Maybe YOU should learn how to read, because I never said they created them all. But please, tell me what techniques came from elsewhere?

"Derived" could mean simply just having stemmed from, ergo later generations could've improved on them. And there's only two that came from them definitely, so again what does that mean? It sure as hell doesn't mean they created all or even most of the techniques.

You're right, I never said they created them all, AGAIN, but show me where the rest of the techniques came from. Notice in my earlier thread how the "most powerful" techniques DID originate from the ancient sith, as I have proven.


Wow, can you answer the actual point instead of skirting off in a different direction perhaps? I'd appreciate it. And, when did I say they were "nothing" without their amulets? Oh? I didn't? Okay, quit making shit up then.

Calm the **** down.

Okay, the Ancient Sith are above average and powerful, but they are less impressive because they used amulets/Sith technology.

That's your opinion on it, nothing more. Mine is they were very impressive because they created techniques that maybe 1-2 people were able to use after them, thousands of years later. You have your opinion I have mine, end of story..


The only one apparently is shooting beams out of your ass.

Truly mature.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
'Sadow. Is. Not. Capable. Of. Blowing. Up. A. Star. Without. His. Ship'

Yes, he is. He displays this in a holocron in DLOTS. I love how people forget this fact.

Sama's point is irrelevant and as lightsnake stated, they made Sadow look human too, so as much as I dislike it, he does have a point.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
'Sadow. Is. Not. Capable. Of. Blowing. Up. A. Star. Without. His. Ship'

Yes, he is. He displays this in a holocron in DLOTS. I love how people forget this fact.

Oh! How could I forget! You mean this:

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/2010/denariinovaqg7.th.jpg

The Dena rii Nova, which he used "the remaining power of the ship" on:

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/6098/setcoursecy8.th.jpg

I love how people don't know jack shit about what they are talking about.

Nebaris I suggest you reread the first page of DLOTS

The thing is, he clasps his hand and it blows up. He doesn't use the ship.

I argued that point too Nebaris but it is very clear that even though he DID create the ability using sith magic, he uses his ship as the intermediary.

So, Aleema is just as powerful as Sadow? She used the ship to destroy two suns.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
So, Aleema is just as powerful as Sadow? She used the ship to destroy two suns.

No, that's not a good example, because Sadow's ship used HIS sith magic, Aleema used HIS sith magic, so your point is moot.