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Apocalypse
Count Nefaria
Mister Sinister
Magneto

The team get 2 weeks prep for the fight. Can these Earth-based villains put up any resistance to a cosmic power?

Originally posted by nimrod009
Apocalypse
Count Nefaria
Mister Sinister
Magneto

The team get 2 weeks prep for the fight. Can these Earth-based villains put up any resistance to a cosmic power?

All four villains combined without prep easily beat the silver surfer. Considering Sinister has taken on two x teams at once, and Magneto can hold his own against the avengers. Magneto, Sinister, and Nefaria would be a more even battle for the Surfer. Since Apocalypse in a non weakened state can battle ss himself.

apocalypse has celstial enhancements but i still think nefaria would end up being the only man standing ormaybe sinister

magnto is nearly at current surfer level perhaps even beyond it in his pure electro magnetic state. sinister is nearly as smart as thanos/reed/doom and with even a day's prep can take out celestials. apocalypse though not quite so good as current magneto has held his own against high evolutionary whod pawn surfer. nefaria has slapped the surfer before i think in a team theyd kill surfer quicker than most can gasp even without prep.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
magnto is nearly at current surfer level perhaps even beyond it in his pure electro magnetic state. sinister is nearly as smart as thanos/reed/doom and with even a day's prep can take out celestials. apocalypse though not quite so good as current magneto has held his own against high evolutionary whod pawn surfer. nefaria has slapped the surfer before i think in a team theyd kill surfer quicker than most can gasp even without prep.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
magnto is nearly at current surfer level perhaps even beyond it in his pure electro magnetic state. sinister is nearly as smart as thanos/reed/doom and with even a day's prep can take out celestials. apocalypse though not quite so good as current magneto has held his own against high evolutionary whod pawn surfer. nefaria has slapped the surfer before i think in a team theyd kill surfer quicker than most can gasp even without prep. so basically all these guys can destroy planets just to teach someone a lesson, and creat a black hole, w/o even trying!!

current magneto alone might stalemate surfer given his alpha mutant status. thatd be a good fight though,

Originally posted by leonheartmm
current magneto alone might stalemate surfer given his alpha mutant status. thatd be a good fight though,
Wrong,Magneto would never be at Surfer's level.Surfer owns any omega on earth let alone a "alpha" mutant.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
current magneto alone might stalemate surfer given his alpha mutant status. thatd be a good fight though, magneto couldnt eben shine surfers ass, let alone fight him.

well, surfer should theoretically be able to do anything magneto does to an equal or higher degree with his energy and matter manipulation. sinister isnt much of a factor in the actual fight, but he would help alot in the prep department.

apocalypse could potentially augment his strength to match the surfer, but lacks the speed or any of the surfers other powers. in a prep contest he could prove to be more of a liability than a help judging by all his previous centuries of planning amounting to pretty much nothing.

count nefaria, who i admittedly know next to nothing about would be a pretty serious threat, but hes supposedly weakend by a specific type of radiation, that the surfer could potentially generate.

with prep i think they have the brains and brawn to win, without prep they might manage to overwhelm him and score a win anway, but it would be alot closer.

Magneto alone can't beat the surfer, however it's overkill if all 4 villains team up.

surfer owns omega?! WTF dude are u in the right state of mind?! omega's will replace the abstracts! u really think surfer stands an fn chance against the phoenix or kid omega, franklin richards etc?! lol. magneto always was close to him in power and with his energy transformation is a definate opponent for him, one worthy of his powers. and thats currently, potentially ALL alphas WILL kill surfer. let alone omegas who can create universes etc. u must be off ur rocker to think surfer can take on an omega.

Originally posted by Decay
well, surfer should theoretically be able to do anything magneto does to an equal or higher degree with his energy and matter manipulation. sinister isnt much of a factor in the actual fight, but he would help alot in the prep department.

apocalypse could potentially augment his strength to match the surfer, but lacks the speed or any of the surfers other powers. in a prep contest he could prove to be more of a liability than a help judging by all his previous centuries of planning amounting to pretty much nothing.

count nefaria, who i admittedly know next to nothing about would be a pretty serious threat, but hes supposedly weakend by a specific type of radiation, that the surfer could potentially generate.

with prep i think they have the brains and brawn to win, without prep they might manage to overwhelm him and score a win anway, but it would be alot closer.
I don't see how they're gonna prep for someone like Surfer.It's not like Sinister's have before in the past.Nefaria's a non-factor just look at what Surfer's done to Wonderman.Originally posted by babel10
Magneto alone can't beat the surfer, however it's overkill if all 4 villains team up.
No it's not Surfer can beat them all with one shot each.

what a DUMASS, hey fanboy magneto's shield hasnt even DENTED under direct assaults from THOR and his mystical mlijnor which is slightly greater in power than surfer's power cosmic. how do u think surfer can KILL magneto with a single shot? absolute crap

Originally posted by leonheartmm
surfer owns omega?! WTF dude are u in the right state of mind?! omega's will replace the abstracts! u really think surfer stands an fn chance against the phoenix or kid omega, franklin richards etc?! lol. magneto always was close to him in power and with his energy transformation is a definate opponent for him, one worthy of his powers. and thats currently, potentially ALL alphas WILL kill surfer. let alone omegas who can create universes etc. u must be off ur rocker to think surfer can take on an omega.

There's a reason Surfer's in space and not on earth.I wonder why reed called him to take care of an "OMEGA"...hmm
Again with the Franklin crap,please the kids all potential nothing more Surfer poops on him.
Cosmic being>>>Mutant simple.Eventually the Omegas should surpass him but that means nothing as we're talking about the present.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
what a DUMASS, hey fanboy magneto's shield hasnt even DENTED under direct assaults from THOR and his mystical mlijnor which is slightly greater in power than surfer's power cosmic. how do u think surfer can KILL magneto with a single shot? absolute crap
The name calling begins,just shows how mature you are.....
Last I checked Thor drained his shield and send him packing.Face it buddy Surfer has all his powers plus more.mags gets a board through his chest.

ur takin the piss rent u. not going into your unbeliably stupid post, just answer me this, CAN surfer beat franklin richards, phoenix or the scarlet witch with chaos wave?! if u say YES than u seriousl belong in a mental ward. franklin creates universes without even THINKING ABOUT IT ALONG WITH ALL ITS ABSTRACTS AND GALACTUS. u DO remember that surfer's powers are not even 1/1000 that of galactus dont u. well franklin created, him and even turned INTO galactus with his own power without breakin a sweat, u think surfer compares to that fanboy?!

*nods*

Oh, and the Surfer is superior to Odinson. ...sorry?

Originally posted by leonheartmm
ur takin the piss rent u. not going into your unbeliably stupid post, just answer me this, CAN surfer beat franklin richards, phoenix or the scarlet witch with chaos wave?! if u say YES than u seriousl belong in a mental ward. franklin creates universes without even THINKING ABOUT IT ALONG WITH ALL ITS ABSTRACTS AND GALACTUS. u DO remember that surfer's powers are not even 1/1000 that of galactus dont u. well franklin created, him and even turned INTO galactus with his own power without breakin a sweat, u think surfer compares to that fanboy?!
Yes,Surfer beats Franklin the kid is just that a kid Surfer blitzes his head off just like he would Scarlet witch... and Jean here you go "jgg" enough said.....
They have the power to beat him but they only have human reflexes,durability etc.(except jean ofcourse but if xorn can do it so can Surfer) franklin or the scarlet witch can't defend against a speed blitz.Scarlet witch's only hope against a speed blitz is if her powers kick in and Surfer misses or something(that's her power it's all porbability).
So I'm a fanboy because I don't agree with you.... Grow up.

nope u cant, the amount of energy inside even cable stops him from DYING and franklin has the ability to create UNIVERSES complete with their concepts like eternity death etc. u think any SHOT from a lowly cosmic like surfer can kill him? {btw skeet i KNOW for a fact that ur insane now, seeing as u just said surfer can kill the phoenix and scarlet witch with chaos wave, heck even the OMNIVERSAL guardian roma could not stop her u think a mere HERALD could?! n dont even get me started on franklin}

blitz does not work against abstract level characters. have a little common sense please.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
blitz does not work against abstract level characters. have a little common sense please. U don't even need to blitz Franklin he has been knocked out many times ........ Gladiator for example

Originally posted by leonheartmm
nope u cant, the amount of energy inside even cable stops him from DYING and franklin has the ability to create UNIVERSES complete with their concepts like eternity death etc. u think any SHOT from a lowly cosmic like surfer can kill him? {btw skeet i KNOW for a fact that ur insane now, seeing as u just said surfer can kill the phoenix and scarlet witch with chaos wave, heck even the OMNIVERSAL guardian roma could not stop her u think a mere HERALD could?! n dont even get me started on franklin} pocket universes11111
surfer is also 300x light speed. but hes still not fast enough to speedblitz...











give me a break, go back in your omega fantasy, and see that there not invincible.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
blitz does not work against abstract level characters. have a little common sense please.
Franklin's not an abstract.You have common sense he has regular human reflexes and durability.I can judo chop Franklin and he's out cold.

knocked out does not mean DEFEATED. he was a kid back then with psionic dampeners holding his power in place. surfer cant do crap to damage him.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
knocked out does not mean DEFEATED. he was a kid back then with psionic dampeners holding his power in place. surfer cant do crap to damage him. K.O means defeated

Originally posted by leonheartmm
knocked out does not mean DEFEATED. he was a kid back then with psionic dampeners holding his power in place. surfer cant do crap to damage him. Originally posted by kgkg
K.O means defeated
Exactly.

since when does ko not mean defeated??
funny guy.

thats simply not true. franklin does NOT have normal durability as his psionic powers protect his biological body. he is ABOVE abstract level. being able to create REALITIES and abstracts{universes} without even trying, u really think u can physically HURT someone who can create the very concepts of life and death. but what the hell am i debating for seeing as the opposition already said surfer would beat PHOENIX and WANDA!

Originally posted by leonheartmm
thats simply not true. franklin does NOT have normal durability as his psionic powers protect his biological body. he is ABOVE abstract level. being able to create REALITIES and abstracts{universes} without even trying, u really think u can physically HURT someone who can create the very concepts of life and death. but what the hell am i debating for seeing as the opposition already said surfer would beat PHOENIX and WANDA!
he created a pocket universe, and he revived galactus with some serious help, and now hes above abstract.

where did all the REASONABLE people go?

Originally posted by leonheartmm
u really think u can physically HURT someone who can create the very concepts of life and death. but what the hell am i debating for seeing as the opposition already said surfer would beat PHOENIX and WANDA!
You keep bring he created this and that. No one is disagreeing with you. ( we all know that)

We know he can be knocked out........... Since it's been done ( thats the key point )


you going to rely this with he created Universes again?

not really he went on a pleasure cruise across multiple universes with a couple of friends{like howard the duck} only to find out that he himself had been making all those universes without even knowing it. he ALSO assumed the form AND significance of galactus and started to KILL CELESTIALS! {YES THAT comic about galactus feedig off celestials was not galactus at ALL but franklin who out of innocence had assumed his form, as told later, " he WAS galactus for all intent and purpose as long as no1 told him who he really was as his subconcious was creating the psionic power of the world devourer" other than that that POCKET universe of his gave BIRTH to and nurtured MANY heroes INCLUDING THOR, the same thor whos kicked surfer's ass on more occasions than not and is at the very least his EQUAL in power.

2 words....



















































what-if!!!

Originally posted by leonheartmm
not really he went on a pleasure cruise across multiple universes with a couple of friends{like howard the duck} only to find out that he himself had been making all those universes without even knowing it. he ALSO assumed the form AND significance of galactus and started to KILL CELESTIALS! {YES THAT comic about galactus feedig off celestials was not galactus at ALL but franklin who out of innocence had assumed his form, as told later, " he WAS galactus for all intent and purpose as long as no1 told him who he really was as his subconcious was creating the psionic power of the world devourer" other than that that POCKET universe of his gave BIRTH to and nurtured MANY heroes INCLUDING THOR, the same thor whos kicked surfer's ass on more occasions than not and is at the very least his EQUAL in power.

All fine and dandy. That isn't the point here.

Franklin, you see, is POWERFUL. Incredibly. Possibly the most powerful person in the Marvel Universe, considering the way he just took Galactuses form. He may be an abstract on the level of the White Crown.

But that matters not. For all purposes, he is still a child. He can still be knocked out with a brick to the head. And a Surfer, speed blitzing at hundreds of times the speed of light, would impact with a bit more force than a brick.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
not really he went on a pleasure cruise across multiple universes with a couple of friends{like howard the duck} only to find out that he himself had been making all those universes without even knowing it. he ALSO assumed the form AND significance of galactus and started to KILL CELESTIALS! {YES THAT comic about galactus feedig off celestials was not galactus at ALL but franklin who out of innocence had assumed his form, as told later, " he WAS galactus for all intent and purpose as long as no1 told him who he really was as his subconcious was creating the psionic power of the world devourer" other than that that POCKET universe of his gave BIRTH to and nurtured MANY heroes INCLUDING THOR, the same thor whos kicked surfer's ass on more occasions than not and is at the very least his EQUAL in power. You still haven't proved that Franklin can't be knocked out..........

Has been done........... Stop Rambling on and on......... about non related stuff.

Speed blitz ........ = K.O if you can prove this wrong then do ... so but stop rambling

that was a chance happening. dont talk like surfer hasnt had his low showings. fact is surfer IS a herald. nohing even close to that level can come close to bothering franklin at all. hyperstorm, who wasnt even as powerful as franklin wreaked havoc in the multiverse. u cant merely say that sum1 can take on sum1 else due to lack of speed if they have MUCH greater power. for instance eternity nor death ever move much at all, u think surfer can speed blitz them?! what about thanos?

thanos is durible.
i could ko fr.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
that was a chance happening. dont talk like surfer hasnt had his low showings. fact is surfer IS a herald. nohing even close to that level can come close to bothering franklin at all. hyperstorm, who wasnt even as powerful as franklin wreaked havoc in the multiverse. u cant merely say that sum1 can take on sum1 else due to lack of speed if they have MUCH greater power. for instance eternity nor death ever move much at all, u think surfer can speed blitz them?! what about thanos?
Eternity can't be speed blitz cuz he is the universe ....... he is time, he is space..........

Franklin is a kid............


POWERFUL ? YES ......... can be knocked out? yes he can

thats bullshit dismissive non logical childish blabber kgkg. against beings like phoenix, wanda and franklin speed means NOTHING. they can do ANYTHING.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
thats bullshit dismissive non logical childish blabber kgkg. against beings like phoenix, wanda and franklin speed means NOTHING. they can do ANYTHING.
Phoenix I agree she is durable........ other ........ Provide some facts buddy.......... WE have seen both Wanda and Franklin knocked out............

you can't understand simple things.

its called PIS. just like wolverine beating hulk and batman punching superman and superman fealing it.

all topgether SS loses

though ss can easily take down nafaria him being composed of ionic energy and we all no how good ss is at manipulating energy. mister sinister goes down before anybody else its just apoc and magneto that will cause trouble

wanda WAS knocked out but curently she has the CHAOS WAVE no1 can knock her out now, n i dont know the instant of franklin being knocked out by gladiater{needless to say it is pis}. franklin even in the BEGINNING was celestial level but now hes FAR surpassed even that, even galactus and cosmic cubes have trouble taking on a celestial heck KUBIK an molecule man along with KOSMOS were AFRAID of celestials u think a HERALD could have taken on franklin even at CELESTIAL level let alone the level he is now?!

Originally posted by Skeets
I don't see how they're gonna prep for someone like Surfer.It's not like Sinister's have before in the past.Nefaria's a non-factor just look at what Surfer's done to Wonderman.
No it's not Surfer can beat them all with one shot each.

Surfer can't beat them all with one shot. Magneto can hold his own against the ss, however he wouldn't be able to ko the surfer. But, with help from sinister, and Nefaria surfer would get pounded on. Plus, Apocalypse who can ko the surfer considering how easily he dealt with Ikaris. So the surfer is outmatched in fire power and in strength considering Apocalypse and Nefaria are physical powerhouses.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
what a DUMASS, hey fanboy magneto's shield hasnt even DENTED under direct assaults from THOR and his mystical mlijnor which is slightly greater in power than surfer's power cosmic. how do u think surfer can KILL magneto with a single shot? absolute crap

I suggest you calm yourself and stick to keeping the debate civil.


Anyway, Silver Surfer turns them all into furry bunnies.

SS takes out the planet they're standing in, speedblits whoever survived that assault, then creates a blackhole.



We dont even know what SS current level, they're is not enough showing to gauge it. Pure energy would just be a big disadvantage againts SS, control on all forms of energy cept against beings way above higher than him. Ie. Abstracts, Mystics, Skyfathers.



Would you let me know what comic series would that?



Where did you get this information? unless of course this is all an assumption.



Low showing of Thor. Shield are useless if you are able to phase through it, or absorbs its energy.

I say the team takes a healthy majority here. But meh, that's just my opinion.

Originally posted by Rols
SS takes out the planet they're standing in, speedblits whoever survived that assault, then creates a blackhole.

magneto doesnt need a planet to stand on or survive. neither does sinister, nefaria or apocalypse


We dont even know what SS current level, they're is not enough showing to gauge it. Pure energy would just be a big disadvantage againts SS, control on all forms of energy cept against beings way above higher than him. Ie. Abstracts, Mystics, Skyfathers.

not enough showings?! u gotta be kiddin me dude surfer has more showings than almost ANY1 apart from spiderman. overall in the history of marvel from creation till now, spidey takes the first place in shpowings and fame followed by surfer


Would you let me know what comic series would that?
yup AOA, he creates NATE grey {most powerful mutant after franklin} cable{second only to nate and franklin} rachel summers{who later showed genetic control over phoenix} and alkso created a clone of jean herself. sinister is right up there with the smartest



Where did you get this information? unless of course this is all an assumption.
its not assumptions if u look at the latest omega theories in comics it is solidly said that humanity{omega mutants to be specific those who show humanity's true potential} will one day replace the abstracts and they will have to instead bow down to humans



Low showing of Thor. Shield are useless if you are able to phase through it, or absorbs its energy.
true but it DOES give a a measure of his power and he has been powered up greatly since then

SS currently received new upgrades from his recent mini series.. He fought a few Annihilation fleet and defeated them in mere seconds, he also fought Ravenous again which he could have easily defeat in there first encounter prior to the upgrade... So no we havent seen enough feat of this current SS.



The blast was a setup for a speed blits and then the blackhole droppings .



So your saying that Nate could defeat a Celestial??? Because that was what your saying with a day of prep he could defeat a Celestial...



I collect X-men issue since 94 cept individual Char. release and ive never come across that Omega mutant replacing abstract theories.



Yeah im not denying how strong Mags shield but I really think its uselless against energy manipulators at SS level. I know about Mags becoming energy after his body was destoryed by Plutonia and only his will kept him and Lorna's energy from being disperse.. And if you recall
Lorna died and Mags would soon follow but he was to stubborn to fall so he fought tell the end..Not the whole story but close enough..

surfer wins easily there is no way any of these guys could fend off more than one of surfers power cosmic blasts no way and hes also just to fast for any of the to see, and also magnetos powers arn't even close to being in the same leagues as the surfer and now herald and much more powerful current surfer

hey ur playing down magneto{not to mention the others} magneto can create black holes too and HAS in the recent past.

If Magneto's creating black holes... how has the Earth survived? Anyways, none of those guys are anywhere near the level of SS. He'll take them all out before they can blink if he wants to.

The team, destroy SS...

Originally posted by JOE NUNEZ
The team, destroy SS... Hard to destroy.... When someone can stop time ............ and move much faster than all those character..........

SS can K.O anyone on that list effortlessly.


Some options for SS. Stop time .... and turn them all into Gas
Speed blitz them..........
Destroy the planet ...... and kill survivors.


the only way the team can wins ....... is if Surfer doesn't use his powers wisely.........

Originally posted by leonheartmm
hey ur playing down magneto{not to mention the others} magneto can create black holes too and HAS in the recent past. whats a black hole to someone that can go 300x light speed, and surfer now has been shown to make a black hole w/o even trying.

Originally posted by The Fake Macoy
If Magneto's creating black holes... how has the Earth survived? Anyways, none of those guys are anywhere near the level of SS. He'll take them all out before they can blink if he wants to.

I agree the Surfer is powerful, since his energy manipulation powers enabled him to reverse transform Hulk back to bruce banner. However, I doubt that would work on either Sinister or Apocalypse since they have considerable controll over their molecular structure. In addition, the surfer could either focus on his energy attacks or boosting his strength. Since the surfer can't both increase his strength to Hulk levels and the intensity of energy attacks this team of four would ko the surfer.

Originally posted by bigbran
whats a black hole to someone that can go 300x light speed, and surfer now has been shown to make a black hole w/o even trying. Still, your asking a lot of the Surfer....

i dont think i am. if surfer cant defeat these chumps, then i have lost all faith in him....

Neferia, is a non factor, seeing how Surfer is so much faster...

Both Sinister and Apoc. would go down easy, They get blasted by the like of Havok and Cyke with effects but SS is by far, far higher level than the 2, they get disintegrated in a second, unless they can somehow survived or heal from being disentegrated.
Mags have not created any blackhole more like a miniatiore wormhole by manipulating EMF energy, still quite an awesome feat, but still normal human reflex and durability/ in energy form will Surfer has got a few diff. option, Ie. disperse, absorved, transmute, etc..etc..
Count Nefaria needs Ionic energy to sustain himself, drained by Surfer he would be useless.
I say how would this guy survived being blasted by a planetary blast, speedblits, transmutation, Blackhole droppings ?

Originally posted by Rols
Both Sinister and Apoc. would go down easy, They get blasted by the like of Havok and Cyke with effects but SS is by far, far higher level than the 2, they get disintegrated in a second, unless they can somehow survived or heal from being disentegrated.
Mags have not created any blackhole more like a miniatiore wormhole by manipulating EMF energy, still quite an awesome feat, but still normal human reflex and durability/ in energy form will Surfer has got a few diff. option, Ie. disperse, absorved, transmute, etc..etc..
Count Nefaria needs Ionic energy to sustain himself, drained by Surfer he would be useless.
I say how would this guy survived being blasted by a planetary blast, speedblits, transmutation, Blackhole droppings ?

Well, Sinister was never actually weak towards cyclops, that was just a ploy. As for Apocalypse, he was blasted away by Cyclops with an infant Cable and Jean Grey increasing his power. Did you see how large that optic blast was, it was way more powerful than cyclop's normal blast.
In addition, Sinister was almost seamingly destroyed but he came back as did Apocalypse after executioners's song.

Referring to the Silver Surfer, he can't make a blackhole effortlessly, and he is durable, however he still has a problem with thor. Plus if I remember correctly Thor lost to He someone both Apocalypse and Sinister made a fool out of.

Im talkin about a blast that could destoy a whole planet, Nate grey killed sinister with psionic and physical assault (AOA), which Surfer also able to do, planetary blast w/telepathic assault. I think this would take care both Apoc, and Sinister.



SS made a blackhole effortlessly, by discharging enough energy and it was quite a big one too and this is prior to his upgrade. And that Thor you were referring too is WMThor which took out the likes of SS, Dr. Strange, Warlock, Thanos, The Infinity Watch at desame time.

Originally posted by Rols
Im talkin about a blast that could destoy a whole planet, Nate grey killed sinister with psionic and physical assault (AOA), which Surfer also able to do, planetary blast w/telepathic assault. I think this would take care both Apoc, and Sinister.

Well, I remember when Nate Grey attacked sinister but, Sinister survived and came back later. In addition Surfers blast are powerful but your overrating them since if he were that powerful with planetary blast and telepathic assaults he wouldn't loose to Thor and Drax. Actually I remember surfer exerting himself and not even denting thanos. Also, AoA is ridiculous anyway since normal sinister would telepathically turn of Grey's powers. Apocalypse on the other hand could outfight Surfer physically, and defiantly would not succumb to Surfer mentally. Since Apocalypse has an intense mental block which keeps people out of his mind. Plus cosmic powered beings never bothered Apocalypse before since he dominated Ikaris, who is a cosmic powered Eternal.



Well, Adam Warlock and Dr Strange can 't provide much physical resistance against Thor since both Warlock and Strange don't even approach thing in strength. Plus Thor's powers are magical anyway so Strange in a direct fight would be no threat. SS, Thanos, and Drax would be the only resistance, but surfer can't match thor in strength either, and drax isn't durable enough to last against thor. So it was more like Thanos and Thor fighting. Besides all of the infinity watch except Thanos would loose to Ikaris anyway. So Warrior madness Thor or not He would still win.

magneto broke through phoenix's sheld, crippled phoenix and his shield took blasts frmo phoenix, tell me surfer could do that.{if u say yes than u r a hopeless fanboy}

{btw if u think surfer can even stand upto nate grey, ur retarted}

thanos is well.. thanos. dont compare thanos to surfer.
what does adam and strange not being strong have to with anything?
surfer is more powerful than apoc, in every thing, cept maybe, maybe strength. but what does strength have to planet destroying blasts? apoc isnt taking tooo many off them.
sinister gets blown up and has to reform, which would take a while.
magneto is nothing to surfer.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
{btw if u think surfer can even stand upto nate grey, ur retarted} no, maybe they just know what there talking about.
whats nate going to do to, 300x light speed? god cable coudnt stand up to surfer.

Apocalypse doesn't have to take Surfer's attacks since he can have the attacks pass through him or maneuver around them since Apocalypse can stretch his body out.

Originally posted by babel10
Apocalypse doesn't have to take Surfer's attacks since he can have the attacks pass through him or maneuver around them since Apocalypse can stretch his body out. SS can affect every cell in his body.




no one has counter the stop time thing..........

SS stops time........ then does everything else

Have you read X-man series Nate killed Sinister. SS never lose to Drax. Think about it Thanos and the rest of the guys mentioned fought WMThor, i think they were holding back but thats just me.This is the kind of power this version of Thor have lets not compare him against Apoc. cause Apoc. does not come this close in strength. We dont know the limit of SS physical prowess he does not fight that way but he is able to augment strength according to the PC at his disposal, like Apocylse. SS versatility in power is enough to take of take care of this guys. I know when SS is beaten and this guys does not have what it takes.



Yes SS can do that, and by the way Ur the retardid fanboy .
And relax buddy, were just havin a conversation, dont need to get so melodramatic. Check SS respect thread you might learn a thing or to in there.


How would he see SS speedblits after the initial assault, non of these guys have lighspeed reflex. He also has the CA, time displacing powers.

I must say the team in overtkill. Magneto does have some high feats showing he could match the SS before his current upgrade. He did create a worm hole and a worm hole is two black holes meeting at one point in space and he did beat the Phoenix. That is a feat the Surfer never even came close to. Last of course he does have a shield the Surfer should not be able to break. With the other three the team should pull off a win.

surfer created a black hole, by not even trying to.

Surfer without to much trouble. Maneto is the only one who could put up a slight fight. But not much.

Originally posted by Skeets

There's a reason Surfer's in space and not on earth.I wonder why reed called him to take care of an "OMEGA"...hmm
Again with the Franklin crap,please the kids all potential nothing more Surfer poops on him.
Cosmic being>>>Mutant simple.Eventually the Omegas should surpass him but that means nothing as we're talking about the present. Cable as strong as he is isn't an omega.

ss transmutes the air inside mags shield to acid, or gives him the legacy virus and accelerates it. or he creates a vacuum and pulls all the air out of his shield like storm did. or he just absorbs mags shield, like thor did. there are endless ways for ss to take out mags. including shrinking below the EM force threshhold and just passing through his shield like it wasn't there. oh, and stop listing feats where mag's was on kick . . . MAYBE then he was at herald level (but as heralds go ss IS the best), but that is hardly his normal state . . . recall -- mags controls ONE of the fundamental forces -- ss controls ALL of them + has the ability to operate at the quantum level, the level that underlies all the others.

SS>>mags in almost every way.

nefaria is never in this fight -- too easy to muddle with his ionic energy. ss could literally look at him and destroy him.

sinister's powers have been rather inconsistently displayed. at his peak, he seems quite powerful, but i doubt he could deal with being drawn into the ss's board . . . or withstand being blasted by a planet-destroying shot. i wonder how he'd enjoy having HIS genetic makeup completely rewritten?

apoc would be interesting, but again, he's got inconsistent showings. he appeared<loki and has been owned too many times by others that should be below him. and of course he's far far FAR too slow (as are all of them) to make it a real fight.

then of course there is nothing any of them could do if ss muddled with time or simply opened a black hole -- mags OPENED one, that does NOT mean he could survive being pulled into one . . .

now, all that said, with prep, they could do it. that's a lot of power AND brains even for ss to deal with. but they'd need a fair share of prep.

Originally posted by leonidas
ss transmutes the air inside mags shield to acid, or gives him the legacy virus and accelerates it. or he creates a vacuum and pulls all the air out of his shield like storm did. or he just absorbs mags shield, like thor did. there are endless ways for ss to take out mags. including shrinking below the EM force threshhold and just passing through his shield like it wasn't there. oh, and stop listing feats where mag's was on kick . . . MAYBE then he was at herald level (but as heralds go ss IS the best), but that is hardly his normal state . . . recall -- mags controls ONE of the fundamental forces -- ss controls ALL of them + has the ability to operate at the quantum level, the level that underlies all the others.

SS>>mags in almost every way.

nefaria is never in this fight -- too easy to muddle with his ionic energy. ss could literally look at him and destroy him.

sinister's powers have been rather inconsistently displayed. at his peak, he seems quite powerful, but i doubt he could deal with being drawn into the ss's board . . . or withstand being blasted by a planet-destroying shot. i wonder how he'd enjoy having HIS genetic makeup completely rewritten?

apoc would be interesting, but again, he's got inconsistent showings. he appeared<loki and has been owned too many times by others that should be below him. and of course he's far far FAR too slow (as are all of them) to make it a real fight.

then of course there is nothing any of them could do if ss muddled with time or simply opened a black hole -- mags OPENED one, that does NOT mean he could survive being pulled into one . . .

now, all that said, with prep, they could do it. that's a lot of power AND brains even for ss to deal with. but they'd need a fair share of prep. This coming from LEO?

Originally posted by Rols
Have you read X-man series Nate killed Sinister. SS never lose to Drax. Think about it Thanos and the rest of the guys mentioned fought WMThor, i think they were holding back but thats just me.This is the kind of power this version of Thor have lets not compare him against Apoc. cause Apoc. does not come this close in strength. We dont know the limit of SS physical prowess he does not fight that way but he is able to augment strength according to the PC at his disposal, like Apocylse. SS versatility in power is enough to take of take care of this guys. I know when SS is beaten and this guys does not have what it takes.
I have read the X-man series, but have you read the x-men AOA one shot when Sinister makes a reappearance. As for Surfer I've read his comics and he's had trouble with not only Drax, he's also had trouble with Thor, and Morg. Plus, Warrior Madness or not it doesn't make Thor a skyfather, it's just Thor in a Berserker rage. Also referring to Apocalypse I didn't compare him against thor, but when Apocalypse easily manhandled Hulk you can't deny his strength. Now versatility, you said Surfer's versatility would be enough to win, however you're downplaying Magneto, Sinister, and Apocalypse's versatility. Since Apocalypse can also alter his strength and the power of his energy attacks. In addition, Magneto can also amp his powers or strength, and Sinister also has fire power and intense telepathy.


Speedblits, Surfer can only travel that fast in space and if you read the first issue of the Evolutionary war the Evolutionary becomes invisible, but Apocalypse's sensors detect him immediately. As for CA and the Surfer's time displacing powers, they weren't a factor when he was pounded on by Morg and during that beating he took from Thor.

Here what SS is going to do 1st;
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rroldz/detail?.dir=79d8scd&.dnm=ceb6scd.jpg&.src=ph
Thats a whole planet he destroyed. Now i dont know how Mags or Apoc. shield can handle a blast like that, but lets say they survived. Hell do this next;
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rroldz/detail?.dir=79d8scd&.dnm=1934scd.jpg&.src=ph
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rroldz/detail?.dir=79d8scd&.dnm=4ed8scd.jpg&.src=ph
See the size of that blackhole, say they somehow make it out; SS could do these to them; well to both Mag. Apoc.
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rroldz/detail?.dir=79d8scd&.dnm=b635scd.jpg&.src=ph
He did this to a few 100,000 beings killing the virus to a molecular level.
he could do these to both Mag, Apoc, Sinister turning them to normal humans, by taking out what makes them mutant.. Heres another one evolving a whole planet...rich with life..
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rroldz/detail?.dir=79d8scd&.dnm=4a88scd.jpg&.src=ph
Or he could impreson them like this or bind them at a moleculat level and send them to the black hole or sun...
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rroldz/detail?.dir=79d8scd&.dnm=91descd.jpg&.src=ph
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rroldz/detail?.dir=79d8scd&.dnm=6ff2scd.jpg&.src=ph
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rroldz/detail?.dir=79d8scd&.dnm=3851scd.jpg&.src=ph
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rroldz/detail?.dir=79d8scd&.dnm=7d55scd.jpg&.src=ph
So how would this guys find a defense agains those kind of assault?




Yes i have it but the special one shot happened in an alternate AOA universe. However in the X-men series, not to sure which issue but between 5 to 10 he killed Sinister....dead, one that made him, that comes from his universe.



Do you have any idea how strong this guys are? Drax w/ power gem,
WMThor and PC/w waters of life Morg... Apoc. would run ruther than face this guys in battle if he knows what best for him.



Here is SS speedblitzing in mere seconds and destroyed a few Annihilation fleet;
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rroldz/detail?.dir=79d8scd&.dnm=c78bscd.jpg&.src=ph
Being invisible is totally diff. than going at 300x the speed of light. Apoc. cannot detect it let alone have the capacity to mount a defense going at that speed.
Time displacing feat would only be to boring to read if he uses it in a fight but there are scans to back that up, that it is in his capacity to do it.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
magneto broke through phoenix's sheld, crippled phoenix and his shield took blasts frmo phoenix, tell me surfer could do that.{if u say yes than u r a hopeless fanboy}

If Surfer wanted, yes he could, and better than Magneto. But, I guess I'm just a hopeless fanboy...

Originally posted by leonheartmm
{btw if u think surfer can even stand upto nate grey, ur retarted}

Wow, you guys have a retard for a mod.

SS is taken down

Originally posted by Tron
If Surfer wanted, yes he could, and better than Magneto. But, I guess I'm just a hopeless fanboy...



Wow, you guys have a retard for a mod.
A Retarded fanboy....shock

leon's a mod . . .

Originally posted by Skeets
A Retarded fanboy....shock

THe other face would've worked better for that comment, y'all know which one...

What Herb...herb herbjedi

Originally posted by Rols
Here what SS is going to do 1st;
Thats a whole planet he destroyed. Now i dont know how Mags or Apoc. shield can handle a blast like that, but lets say they survived. Hell do that up, that it is in his capacity to do it.

I know how powerful the silver surfer is, however the surfer destroying a planet doesn't justify a victory for him. Since both Drax and the champion of the universe have destroyed planets before and they still get beat, because If I remember correctly Champion of the Universe lost to she-hulk. In addition, even if surfer did blow up the planet Magneto and Apocalypse are both agile enough to avoid it and can survive in space.



Now the blackhole, big deal Apocalypse can teleport out since Apocalypse can do that. But, again you make it seem like producing blackholes would ensure surfer a victory, however if that were true he would have been using them in fights against Thor and the Champion when he was loosing.



That might work on Magneto since back in an old defenders issue he was turned into an Infant by Alpha, who is far stronger than the Surfer. However, both Apocalypse and Sinister have considerable control over the molecular structure so I doubt surfer could transform them to normal humans. Since if the Surfer could he would half altered altered some of the Elders of the Universe and Eternals that he's had trouble with such as the Runner and Thanos. So I doubt the surfer's powers would work on virtually immortal beings that have control over their molecular structure.



The Surfer can only imprison people considerably weaker on his board, right since if he could imprison anyone he fights he would. Next, the surfer binding them and sending them to the sun, again your downplaying this team since Magneto and Sinister are two of the most powerful mutants and Apocalypse being even Superior to these two Apocalypse could teleport away. In addition, while on the subject of binding Apocalypse might bind the surfer since he did bind the Evolutionary and captured Loki for a time. Plus, he has three diversions so he could trap the Surfer.


Well like I said before Apocalypse is no stranger to beings with cosmic powers and both Magneto and Nefaria have held their own against Thor. So even if the Surfer blew up the Planet and tried to use a blackhole to capture them Apocalypse could easily teleport them to safety. In addition, I would like to add that in this fight I disregarded prep time since these four in a direct fight would easily overwhelm the surfer. However, the team was given two weeks of prep time if Doom could easily take Surfers powers Magneto alone with prep would finish the Surfer. Considering Magneto and Sinister have technology and intelligence at least rivaling Doom, and Apocalypse has technology far ahead of Doom.

you keep refuting the methods ss has of taking down this group -- though you never said how nefaria could survive for more than a moment, being an energy being -- but you've yet to suggest a way they could take out ss. you even went so far as to say mag's could do it himself -- how exactly would he do that?

your arguments about how he would/should use this and that power were he losing is not a good one -- flash could/should use his infinite mass punch to beat everyone, but he doesn't. thor could use godforce blasts all the time when he's losing but he doesn't, or erect invincible shields. superman could always use his superspeed to dance around opponents, but he doesn't. mags himself could simply open a blackhole or wormhole to wipe out the xmen, but he doesn't. they're comics, and full, unfettered use of all powers all the time would not make them very interesting . . . that's why the forum disregards those issues and allows for full, unhindered use of ALL available powers.

fyi: when shehulk beat champ, he was depowered. when ss fought wm thor, thor was 10x as powerful and out for blood while ss et. al., were still just trying to capture him. and thor x 10 will beat almost anyone short of thanos . . .

with prep, these 4 could beat him, i agree, without it, how do you propose they win?

why is this still going on?

That blast dwarf the freakin planet how would you avoid it? I quess you can teleport in space (which i seriously doubt this guys having have lightspeed reflex to avoid such attacks) Now there fighting in space which is very much an advantage to SS as his in space fighting most of the time and i have yet to see this four fight outside an invironment. This guys have been caught off guard by the like of Havok, and SS is in the lightspeed speed category, how would this guys avoid a speedblits and energy blast in space..which they are not use to fighting at..



I dont know teleporting out of a blackhole would work, the gravitional pull would be too great for any form of energy to comeout. This is a forum everything goes as long as its within the chars. abilities, unlike the actual comics were its dependent on the writers + SS mostly hold back and a blackhole dumping , would be too extreme.




The Elders posses the (cosmic energy) primal forces of the universe, which SS PC cant compare, and Thanos is Thanos, i dont think i need to say more. Sinister and Apoc. is nowhere equall to these guys.. SS can control/manipulate most forms of energy except those people thats above SS in power level. SS>>>>Apoc/Sinister + SS goes far beyond Dna manipulation to subatomic molecular structure...



the binding to the board trick work against a herald level being, Sinister is not at that level (I think), + its just long enough for him to be send to the sun or Blackhole or being disintegrated or used matter manipulation.
Heck if i really wanna be silly SS can go back in time and kill all this 4 before they hit there prime.

Originally posted by leonidas
you keep refuting the methods ss has of taking down this group -- though you never said how nefaria could survive for more than a moment, being an energy being -- but you've yet to suggest a way they could take out ss. you even went so far as to say mag's could do it himself -- how exactly would he do that?

First, the Surfer is indeed powerful, however he couldn't just blast the whole team into submission since Magneto can definitely defend himself against the Surfer's blast. In Addition, to think the Surfer could blast and kill Apocalypse and Sinister in one shot is ridiculous. Since Apocalypse has powerful energy attacks and shields of his own, can increase size, strength, and density, alter body parts or entire body into powerful melee or firing weapons, or even mimic a vehicle. Sinister on the other hand has powerful telepathy and can mentally turn of powers of super powered beings and can take all kinds of punishment. Then Nefaria is a powerhouse in strength which could easily give Surfer trouble. Now on beating the Surfer, he has been Ko by Morg since the Surfer isn't much of a hand to hand fighter. Thats trouble for the Surfer since Apocalypse is at least as strong as Morg, but far more versatile and a better fighter, Plus Nefaria is there too. So the Surfer would either retreat or get Ko. Now as for Magneto his raw power is below the Surfer's however Magneto has technology that he has used to amp his power before. Such as his helmet that could take over any living mind that would overwhelm the surfer.




I already knew that, but thats too convenient for Surfer just to utilize his time powers or open a blackhole. Because if that were the case Sinister could enter Surfer's mind and and turn of his powers or Apocalypse turns his hand into a weapon that penetrates the Surfer's body since Apocalypse is a better fighter and could alter his atomic structure. However, I prefer to use references that have happened in actual battles since I've seen Sinister easily put down Nate Grey by affecting his powers mentally or Apocalypse turn his chest into a powerful cannon. Plus, magneto affect the Electromagnetic spectrum of the Earth, and Nefaria take a solid hit from Thor with no problem.




OK, so the Champ was depowered against She-hulk but still did fine against the Surfer. Warrior Madness Thor again is just a berserker Thor it doesn't make him classes stronger. As for Thanos Thor was pounding Thanos around, and sure Thanos is strong, but he still relies heavily on his technology since he relied heavily on it against the Champion, and the punisher's. So obviously Thanos has specific limits on his raw power and requires assistance from his technology.



For one Magneto alone would be formidable against Silver Surfer, he wouldn't be a push over. In addition, with Nefaria, Apocalypse, and Sinister the Surfer would take a terrible beating also considering Apocalypse alone would be a difficult challenge for Surfer. Plus, he has to deal with Nefaria's strength and Surfer wouldn't know what to expect from Sinister. So the Surfer goes down hard against these four with or without prep time.

apocalypse cant even beat his meat, let alone surfer.
he cant even beat the x men, but we know surfer can destroy a planet easy.

Originally posted by babel10
First, the Surfer is indeed powerful, however he couldn't just blast the whole team into submission since Magneto can definitely defend himself against the Surfer's blast. In Addition, to think the Surfer could blast and kill Apocalypse and Sinister in one shot is ridiculous. Since Apocalypse has powerful energy attacks and shields of his own, can increase size, strength, and density, alter body parts or entire body into powerful melee or firing weapons, or even mimic a vehicle. Sinister on the other hand has powerful telepathy and can mentally turn of powers of super powered beings and can take all kinds of punishment. Then Nefaria is a powerhouse in strength which could easily give Surfer trouble. Now on beating the Surfer, he has been Ko by Morg since the Surfer isn't much of a hand to hand fighter. Thats trouble for the Surfer since Apocalypse is at least as strong as Morg, but far more versatile and a better fighter, Plus Nefaria is there too. So the Surfer would either retreat or get Ko. Now as for Magneto his raw power is below the Surfer's however Magneto has technology that he has used to amp his power before. Such as his helmet that could take over any living mind that would overwhelm the surfer.

morg defeated ss one time, when ss had no real knowledge what or who he was. the next time they met, ss made certain morg understood who the most powerful herald was and beat him power for power, strength for strength and ko'd him, destroying most of a planet collaterally. ss>morg beyond question. and in some of the latest ss books, your contention that he is a poor h2h combatant is very much refuted. he is a pacifist, but ss CAN fight very well. (see ss respect thread in comic book forum if you're interested . . .)

how would mags counter having the air drawn out of his shield? storm did it and it would be even easier for ss to do so. and what makes you think mags control over EM>SS's who has near absolute control over ALL fundamental forces including quantum and time?

how does nefaria last a moment being made entirely of ionic energy and ss easily manipulated wonderman's energy in the past? not to mention his speed. how would any of them even HIT him if he was using his speed?



shehulk has punched ss and done ZERO damage -- he didn't even flinch. ironman has done the same thing. ZERO damage. hulk himself has done nothing but stagger him with HIS strength. all we know of apoc's strength is he held hulk for a short time -- and it wasn't even SAVAGE hulk. and given the fact that his body is malleable it isn't really even that big a deal. reed richards could do something similar. ss could scan his body's structure and effect his dna. he granted the skrulls the ability to shapeshift again after they had lost the ability and cleansed the cells of an entire planet's population. he could easily find the x-gene and simply turn it off. why not? or just overwhelm him with damage.

ss took a full power tp blast from moondragon WITH the mind gem and was barely knocked down. the exact same attack left prof x in a coma. he's blasted a collective alien consciousness with a power cosmic blast routed through his CONSCIOUSNESS. tp will NOT be effective on ss . . .



champ is an elder with the power primordial and has wiped out a GROUP of top tier heroes with little more than a wave of his hand. ss has defeated him. and wm thor LITERALLY is possessed of 10x his normal strength. it's on panel, thor says it. and thanos didn't have tech against odin . . .



i disagree that mags would be a challenge. you still never said what he could possibly do to harm him. if it's his helmet, it's an easy thing for ss to transmute the metal into ceramic, or gas, or acid . . . he could affect him genetically. these are all things ss HAS done to various opponents at one time or another. he changed all the obliterator's weapons into harmless light machines! if he can do that to the weapons of an elder of the universe, he sure shouldn't have trouble changing mags helmet . . .

nef is never a part of this in any way. sinister and apoc would be a little tougher, but apoc can be overcome with damage or a tp assault or a number of ss's more exotic attacks. sinister likewise. you said ss doens't show all these kinds of attacks against more powerful foes. ravenous was an equal and he trapped PARTS of him in his board! ss has battled and defeated or done very well against nearly every 'cosmic' related foe he's come against. who has sinister battled that would make you think he could hang with the ss? and just how would anyone even hit a well written ss?

Originally posted by Rols
That blast dwarf the freakin planet how would you avoid it? I quess you can teleport in space (which i seriously doubt this guys having have lightspeed reflex to avoid such attacks) Now there fighting in space which is very much an advantage to SS as his in space fighting most of the time and i have yet to see this four fight outside an invironment. This guys have been caught off guard by the like of Havok, and SS is in the lightspeed speed category, how would this guys avoid a speedblits and energy blast in space..which they are not use to fighting at..

Who isn't used to fighting in space. Magneto could fight in space and so can Apocalypse. Since I remember Apocalypse fighting the Evolutionary successfully in space and his fight with Ikaris when they both left the ship and Apocalypse was flying through space. So it seems Apocalypse is fine in any environment as Magneto is with his shields if you recall all of his remote bases. Light Speed category, whats this have to do with the Surfer beating this team since unless the Surfer's traveling on his board he doesn't even approach those speeds. Referring to being caught off guard by Havok what's that have to do with anything. Since Surfer has been beaten by people who aren't that fast such as Champion, and Thor do they move at light speed.
As for the giant blast that dwarfs a planet, sure he'll destroy the planet, but It wouldn't kill Apocalypse or Magneto since they have powerful shields and are fast. Since Apocalypse can also transform himself into a fast vehicle.



Again if you want to refer to the characters written down abilities instead of comics Surfer falls harder since that puts virtually no limits on Apocalypse and Sinister would mentally turn off Surfer powers. In addition, Magneto could just drain draining electromagnetic field of the earth and amp his power indefinitely. However, I prefer visual proof of the ability in an actual fight.



I know all about the Elders, The Champion of the universe lost to She-hulk. Yet Apocalypse effortlessly chokes the Hulk into submission and makes him a servant. The Collector gets defeated by a weak unimind, and Thanos made a fool out of them anyway. Such as the Gardner or Grandmaster, who has the power of life and death and a master of games, and can traverse time and Space, and yet he looses at his own games. As for Thanos is Thanos, without death's enhancements and the Immortality thanks to being banned from death's realm Thanos wouldn't have charged into some of the beatings he's received that some people consider feats. Referring to Surfer>>>>Apocalypse/Sinister can you prove it. Since Apocalypse with a stable body manages to dominate Ikaris and Evolutionary, and the Evolutionary knocked out Thor. Could Surfer alter the subatomic molecular structure of an Eternal, Asgardian, Olympian or other virtually immortal beings. I thought so since surfer even though he can alter molecular structure he has limits.



The binding to the board, if this were so useful why is it absent in important battles, most likely because it's not practical for the surfer to bind someone when his hands are full in a fight.



Surfer couldn't even beat that blockhead the Champion of Universe and had trouble with Drax, who is also an idiot. I mean Champion can destroy a planet and still lost to She-hulk. Also, Champion destroyed the Planet he and Thanos were on, and accomplished nothing but getting Stranded in space. Drax has destroyed planets and still looses fights. This is starting to sound like dbz! As for Apocalypse with a healthy body has never lost to the x-men. Since AOA was an alternate universe and executioners song and the twelve Saga Apocalypse didn't have a stable body.

can't speak to ikaris --where did THAT figth happen -- but you've very much overstated how apoc did against evolutionary. that fight was a draw and never really was resolved. it was a good showing for apoc who has had more bad showings than good ones. and using aoa characters in this debate is irrelevent -- alternate reality versions are not necessarily the same as their 616 counterparts and so their feats are generally disregarded unless aoa characters specifically are ebing discussed. in this case, they are not.



again, VASTLY overstated and simplified. apoc did not "MAKE" hulk do anything. he talked him into it. and he certainly didn't CHOKE hulk into submission. . . and once again, shehulk beat a champ whose power was HALVED and who couldn't use the power primordial or the gem. . . not much of a win . . .

otoh, drax has one-shotted a full power champ. with the power gem drax is damn near unstoppable.

Originally posted by leonidas
can't speak to ikaris --where did THAT figth happen -- but you've very much overstated how apoc did against evolutionary. that fight was a draw and never really was resolved. it was a good showing for apoc who has had more bad showings than good ones. and using aoa characters in this debate is irrelevent -- alternate reality versions are not necessarily the same as their 616 counterparts and so their feats are generally disregarded unless aoa characters specifically are ebing discussed. in this case, they are not.

The battle between Ikaris and Apocalypse happened in New Eternals #1 with Apocalypse easily dominating the battle. However, one of Ikaris's attacks destroyed the ship and Ikaris fell down to Earth and Apocalypse flew away. As for the fight with the Evolutionary are you sure you read it. Since the Evolutionary couldn't land one hit and got wrapped up by apocalypse and brought to watch X-factor and the Subterraneans. In addition, I specifically said AoA was ridiculous since many things contradict the normal universe.



Again, are you reading these issues because the Hulk was definitely overpowered. In addition, in that conversation Apocalypse had told the Hulk who was boss. Plus, if the Champion of the Universe is so powerful why should he need the Power Gem. Also the Champion does use the power primordial it's just that he's focused it to develop his body to have the degree of strength, durability, and stamina he has. So he can't attack with blast like the other Elders. As for drax knocking out a full power champion, it's not to surprising since even before She-hulk beat him he was still using the Power gem so that says something about the Champions real power. Considering with the Power Gem Champion never landed a finger on Thanos, that shows how pathetic the Champion is. However, Drax being nearly unstoppable with the power gem, well I agree he's stronger than Champion I don't know about nearly unstoppable.

So the team wins prep or no prep

pretty gay thread

*laughs* Surfer wins. With ease.

Show me some proof that Mags shield can take a planet destroying blast.
not speculation, actual on panel feat. Same with Apoc. he has fallen from a blast by the likes of Cykes and Havok and SS is way higher level than those guys. The only way i can think of them getting out a that blast is by porting out or Mags somehow conjuring a wormhole out of there. And SS wouldnt just do 1 blast, he can do this all night long;
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rroldz/detail?.dir=79d8scd&.dnm=82adscd.jpg&.src=ph
and SS is a lot faster than High Evo. in terms of speed. How do you know Apoc. is as strong as Morg or better fighter? Again thats speculation, I want proof. I know Apoc can Aug. strength in unknown level but if you wanna put it that way SS then can augment inf. level in strength (dont even know what that means) because he has inf. energy sources. In terms of fighting abilities check out recent issue of planet Hulk were SS single handedly battle the Green Scars, + he has battle the likes of Thanos, Champion, Adam, Thor, if he can hang out with this guys in H2H then he must not be that bad in hand to hand. Now Apoc, Sinister, Nefaria, Mags; who have they fought that makes them a master of H2h at say Champions, Thor or Thanos level.



So Sinister can undo what Great Galactus gave to SS, again show me proof that Sinisters powers>>>>>>>than PC. Even Moondragoon, a high level telepath w/ mind gem did nothing to SS in terms of Telepathic assault, how can Sinister and Apoc. compare to that + SS has fought complete psionic or telpathic beings and won. I showed you proof on how SS would fight the team, now show me how the team can defend against such assault, no what if and what not. I want on panel proof or issues ##.



Sinister made Nate of course he would somehow put a fail safe on him in order to control him. but has Sinister done the same thing to other mutants? NO, because it is not within his power to shut down other peoples power with out tech aid. specificly against mutant. SS took a barrage of hit from Savage Hulk, WM Thor, Thanos, Champion, Drax and a few other power house and survived. PC>>>>>Electromagnetic spectrum, PC>>>>>Ionic energy.



A freakin Astranaught can fight in Space, but what im referring to is fighting somebody who is at home in space, who mostly lived and fight in space + who can move 300x at lightspeed in space. How many times
have this team fought in Space you can probably count it in 1 hand, this is why im saying its SS advantage. SS would be in his board because thats how he fights. How long do you think this guys would last with a barrage of PC blast, not to mention Blackhole droppings and his more exotic powers.



Obviously you dont really read SS comics because everything ive shown you is on comic panel, and if your talking about on paper bio well SS should be downright unbeatable, cause there is no limit to what PC can do. Cosmic beings>>>>>>>>Mutants.



1st because sometimes SS forget how his powers work (actually writters at fault not SS)
2nd because before SS cant make more than 1 Board now he can apparently make more than 1.

Originally posted by Rols
Show me some proof that Mags shield can take a planet destroying blast.
not speculation, actual on panel feat. Same with Apoc. he has fallen from a blast by the likes of Cykes and Havok and SS is way higher level than those guys. The only way i can think of them getting out a that blast is by porting out or Mags somehow conjuring a wormhole out of there. And SS wouldnt just do 1 blast, he can do this all night long;
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rroldz/detail?.dir=79d8scd&.dnm=82adscd.jpg&.src=ph

Well, as for Planet destroying attacks since when have the Surfer's planet destroying attacks been successful in an important battle for him. Since Thanos disregards Surfer's most intense blast by not even putting up his shields. However, against Thor, and the Champion's physical assault Thanos kept the shields up until they were broken through. So the Surfer's blast and powers which are indeed powerful, but have their limits. Since he was caught off guard by Dracula, lost to Champion of the Universe and beat around by Thor. In addition, the Surfer had trouble with the Earth Eternals, during the Evolutionary War. So during all these situations the Surfer being able to blow up a planet meant nothing. As for Apocalypse, he lost to Cyclops's optic beam, which was being amplified by both Jean Grey and infant Cable. Did you read the issue, because that by far dwarfed any of Cyclops's other blast.
Now, referring to Magneto and the durability of his shields, well Magneto shields have stood up to the combined powers of Xmen, or even Avengers teams. Which have consisted of Thor or Hercules, and Magneto shields still provide enough resistance.



Silver Surfer is fast, however he only approaches the speeds you're referring to in hyperspace, he doesn't casually in normal space move beyond light speed. This also true when he's fighting, because if he were so fast during fighting as well he wouldn't have had problems with Dracula, Morg, and the Champion. In addition, the Surfer's speed didn't keep him from being caught by the Eternals so he could be turned over to the Evolutionary. As for Surfer having potentially infinite strength, okay, why didn't he overcome the Champion. Since the Champion without the power gem couldn't beat She-hulk. Okay, so Surfer fights with Thor, Adam, and Champion, yet She-hulk beat Champion in a fair battle. In addition, Thor is knocked unconscious by the Evolutionary, and during the Evolutionary War the Evolutionary couldn't land one hit on Apocalypse. As for Surfer fighting Thanos, those are more one sided beatings for the Surfer. In addition, Magneto has held his own against Thor and Hercules, so what Adam without the soul orb won't make much difference.


Well, have you read on Sinister since he has a history on being able to turn off other mutants powers. It has nothing to do with Sinster's powers surpassing the power cosmic. Since Doom doesn't have abilities that surpass the power cosmic or technology that is beyond Galactus's, but he still took Surfer's powers. So Surfer's powers would be in danger since Sinister has turned many powerful mutants powers off.
Well, for proof on how the team can win your should read New Eternals #1 to see how powerless Ikaris is to Apocalypse and X-factor # 50 how with one diversion Loki got temporarily trapped. In addition, in the Evolutionary War Apocalypse captured the Evolutionary, but let him go to have a discussion. Plus, Apocalypse's body is so versatile that there are too many ways he could trap the Surfer if he wanted to. That also goes for Magneto, who could at least trap the Surfer temporarily since he can uses his magnetic powers to trap people in a metal covering that is skin tight. This also gives Magneto full control of the captives body. That was in X-men #2, and Also Thor # 473, when the Evolutionary clearly shows he's above Thor. As for Sinister I suggest you read Inferno to see how powerful he is both hand to hand and with his telepathic powers.


PC>>>>>Electromagnetic spectrum, sure in general, however, the power Surfer personally has isn't that great. Since Surfer's personal power has shown to have many limits. Actually Sinister just shut off Nate's powers in the X-man series, and Sinister didn't need a fail safe against him. In addition, Sinister has affected other mutants such as Cable. As for Hulk, War Hulk was one of Apocalypse's servants and Surpassed Savage Hulk. So Surfer can take a barrage of hits from a powered down ex servant of Apocalypse, well Imagine a barrage from the Apocalypse himself. Since in Hulk # 456 Apocalypse showed himself to easily be the Hulk's superior in Strength. In addition, Surfer getting beat up by Warrior Madness Thor doesn't mean much since Hulk could take a beating from WM Thor. Plus, Champion's beatings aren't much since even with the Power Gem in Thanos Quest he didn't touch Thanos once, and he calls himself the Champion of the Universe. Now, Drax he's lost to the Champion, given the Surfer some hard times, and is a mere annoyance to Thanos, so Drax also isn't that impressive. Considering He would make a servant out of Drax, and he beat Thor, and Ikaris is Prime Eternal, who is above all other Eternals except Thanos. Yet, these two couldn't put a dent in Apocalypse.



Surfer can't move 300x lightspeed in space, but he can in hyper space. In addition, Apocalypse throughout in X-factor had Ship and the pyramid ship in New Eternals #1 so Apocalypse is no stranger to space. Also an Astronaut can't adjust their molecular structure to adjust to any situation like Apocalypse or adjustable shields that Magneto has, which allows them to fight in virtually any environment.



Actually I have read many Silver Surfer comics, however a lot of the feats you showed such as Surfer blasting planets or rearranging matter of beings were on beings that were significantly weaker than him. Such as the Skrulls, or even Super Skrull, Magneto is way above Super Skrull.
There may be no limit on what the PC can do in the Hands of Galactus, however in the Surfer's hands it's shown he has many limits. In addition Cosmic Beings aren't always stronger than mutants since are all Eternals more powerful than mutants. Look at Starfox, some of the Earth Eternals, or even the Champion of the Universe they're Cosmic beings, yet there are more powerful mutants.



Well, I guess the writers aren't doing the Surfer justice. In addition, even if the Surfer could make more boards he would only manage to bind Nefaria or maybe Sinister. But, That still leaves at leaves him with trouble to fight in both Apocalypse and Magneto.

First off. Surfer has jobbed. A lot. He jobs so other characters can look powerful. In the recent annihilation comics it was shown that Galactus had put a type of self restraint on surfer so that surfer would not go all out. Now surfer is blowing up planets cause he fights harder. Current Annihilation Surfer is not Jobber Surfer.

Champion couldn't beat shehulk, but shehulk almost broke her fist punching surfer...

Surfer has shown, through Gladiator, that he can detect your weakness and create that exact radiation/energy, to weaken/hurt you.

Through Hulk, Surfer has shown he can remove the gamma radiation, to effectively depower you.

In the GL/Surfer crossover, Surfer's body contained the energies of the entire planet of OA.

As for Champion not touching Thanos once. In Thanos Quest, Thanos said if Champion landed one more hit, he'd break Thanos's shields, Thanos was actually relieved when Champion changed tactics and went into the planet breaker attack.

Silver Surfer has trapped people within his surfboard before.. and in the case of daredevil and spiderman, created energy cocoons they couldn't escape from.

In the case of the mutants, apocalypse, magneto, sinister. Surfer fought godlike cable, and at the end wasn't winded, or wounded. He stood there.

Also as far as mutants go. Mutants can have their powers deactivated. Why can't surfer use the power cosmic to simulate that energy and deactivate the mutants.

Surfer should win. 8/10

How about his recent fight with Ravenous and lets not forget Infinity crusades when he blew that 1st defense planet that allowed the rest of the heroes to go in or the Morg battle were they blew up the planet. And Thanos is not in this fights. What does this have to do with the fight against SS and the team?



Diff. writers write Chars. diff. And Since then SS has shown more better abilities and upgrades. Surfer has shown more greater feats than the past, its called Char. growth, he grew more powerfull because of that. And you seemed to understimate what a planetary blast could do, have you seen or read any of this 4 withstanding a blast at that magnitude? And SS can do not just 1 but a lot more.



Is the combined assault enough to destroy a planet? This is a question i need answer from you. You keep giving me diff. scenarios. I want to know any of this guys surviving an assault that have enough force to destroy a planet.



Have you heard of hit and run tactics, he can use that to his advantage. and he doesnt have to use that much speed against this Char. because by comparison they are very slow to him.



As i said before diff. writers write chars. diff. What does this have to do with this fight? SS is not fighting Champion, Evolutionary, the Eternals, etc.. His fighting against Apoc., Sinister, Magneto, Count Nefaria. Show me feats of this guys, not the others.



Again Doom is not Sinister, for goodness sake Doom manage to take not only the power of Beyonder but also, Galactus and the likes, this 2 are totally diff. Characters. And would you gave me at least an issue where Sinister has turned of a powers from a mutant not on his charged? You have to remember Heralds and Mutants are too completely diff. beings.



Okay i dont know what SS comics your reading but he has shown this abilities against Herald level opponenets and CB's. I need proof that this guys could handle SS that is being presented in this forum NO PIS OR CIS.

Originally posted by Rols
How about his recent fight with Ravenous and lets not forget Infinity crusades when he blew that 1st defense planet that allowed the rest of the heroes to go in or the Morg battle were they blew up the planet. And Thanos is not in this fights. What does this have to do with the fight against SS and the team?

In Annihilation Surfer beat Ravenous, however Surfer was definitely stronger than him. As for his battle with Morg its no secret they can blow up planets. However, many power beings in the Marvel Universe can survive after the explosion of a planet. Also referring to Thanos was a response that Surfer's speed and planet destroying blast were too much for this fight. Yet, Surfers superior speed never factors in against him or other slower foes.


Well, Magneto's shields allow him passage through lava, have protected him from nuclear weapons, and against atmospheric reentry. In addition, Magneto could probably absorb off some of the energy instead of taking all the force at once. Apocalypse on the other hand doesn't have to be hit since he could transform to easily avoid the attack. So the Surfer firing huge attack would be a disadvantage since Apocalypse could be fast in space if he wants. So the Surfer firing planet destroying blast might only get rid of Nefaria and Sinister. Which still leaves Apocalypse adapting to anything the Surfer does and Magneto, who could absorbing power off the attacks.


For guys who could survive an assault that has enough force to destroy a plane most it would be Apocalypse and Magneto for this team of four. Considering Magneto and Apocalypse have the most options to the Surfers planet destroying attacks. As for taking the blast directly Magneto has also shielded successfully against phoenix, however most likely Magneto just absorbed off some power to decrease the impact, which is something he could do against the Surfer. As for Apocalypse, he would simply avoid the attack.




Well, if the Surfer stays out of hyper space how much faster is he going to be than the other four. Since Magneto travels fast considering he's had multiple bases in space that he's attended to. In addition, Apocalypse aside from telekinesis for transportation could transform body parts into rockets, engines, or even transform into a high speed vehicle. In addition, Apocalypse could also transform into a deadly weapon, a large one to since he can alter his size. Plus, Apocalypse can also vary the power.




As for feats, Magneto shields held up against Phoenix, Avengers teams, X teams, and also Nuclear Weapons. Apocalypse stabbed Ikaris through the chest and outfought him entirely. In addition, Apocalypse split his body apart which caused all of Ikaris's attacks to go through him, and transforming into a fast flying vehicle and capturing and releasing the High Evolutionary. Also overpowered the Hulk and made him a servant. Sinister on the other hand in Inferno disregarded the Xmen's direct attack since they couldn't harm him. In addition, Sinister was inside Jeans mind destroying a memories, but several xmen kicked him out. Then Count Nefaria in Avengers # 166 shows that he's far superior to the like of Wonder Man.



Doom during the Secret war knew that Galactus had the power cosmic and constructed a machine to transfer Galactus's power into his being. Doom also did it to the Surfer. However, for one Galactus doesn't pay attention to many far lesser beings so Galactus could be a target to anyone that could build a similar machine. As for the beyonder, not being from this Universe was overly curious and naive, which led to Doom being able to absorb his power. In xfactor# 39 Sinister easily stops Cyclops from attacking him by mentally blocking his powers. Heralds and Mutanats are different however, mutants aren't all the same either. Since mutants range from the lower end all the way into mutants as powerful as Apocalypse and the Twelve.



Actually I have read much of the Silver Surfer series and seen him put down the Champion and various other powerful beings. So I understand the Surfer being presented. However, the Surfer presented wouldn't beat this team of four. Considering the Apocalypse presented alone would be a challenge for the Surfer. In addition, the Surfer has to deal with Magneto, Nefaria, and Sinister, and the Surfer probably doesn't know much about Sinister or Apocalypse so thats another disadvantage for the Surfer.

I still don't understand why you keep on bringing up Thanos, who is FAR more powerful than anyone on that team, in order to defend your view that the Team can win. How is the team even going to hurt Surfer? Surfer can shrink to the size of an atom if he wants. Also, how's Magneto supposed to survive in space for long? He needs air! His bases in space are in Earth orbit, while Surfer travels across the universe.

Exactly!!!!

So Magneto shield can now absorbs cosmic energy blast? When did this happens.

So Apoc. now posses Godlike reflex even dough his been assaulted by the likes of Cable, Wolverine, Shiro, etc, etc whos not even close to the speed of Quicksilver which pales in comparison to the speed in which SS fights.

A lot faster, Think about it, he could speed blits in the speed of lights (above it if he needs to) + This guys wouldnt know where he would be if he hits then run lightyears away since none of the four can see or sense that far.

He still cant move at the speed at which SS function. Its like comparing speed between a 18 wheeler against a Shiar starcruiser.

Ikaris; http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/i/ikaris.htm
http://www.geocities.com/brenni_au/I.html?200629#Ike
SS; http://marvelite.prohosting.com/surfer/profiles/surfer.html
http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/s/silversurfer.htm
2 completly different chars w/ diff. set of powers. + SS>>>>>Ikaris.

Well, the Surfer can be hurt a number of ways considering Nefaria and Apocalypse can both physically harm the Surfer with their strength. In addition, Magneto can mount an intense assault on Surfer with his Magnetic powers. Also, Magneto has used his powers to also mount mental attacks as well. Sinister has powerful telepathy and could attack the Surfer's mind or even reinforce Magneto's mental attacks to put a mental block on the Surfer. Plus, Apocalypse can adjust to the Surfer and counter attack.



In Secret Wars # 5 Magneto's shields hold up against Galactus's cosmic energy blasts. Also in Xmen 112 Magneto's shield also manages against Phoenix. So I see no reason why Magneto's shield's won't hold up against the Silver Surfers cosmic blast.



What does Apocalypse fighting Cable, Wolverine, and Sunfire have to do with this fight. Considering Apocalypse can adjust his power and body to deal with his current challenge. As for reflexes he out maneuverer the Evolutionary in space, so Apocalypse can react to the Surfer. Considering Thor, and Champion don't have the fastest reflexes and that doesn't hinder them against the Surfer. In addition, while on the subject of lower powered beings Spiderman has assaulted Surfer, and so has Dracula. They don't have Godlike reflexes.



Apocalypse has sensors that could easily pick up the Surfer. Also without being in hyper space the Surfer's speed is limited, although he is still fast. In addition, morg with a pound from his axe left Surfer knocked out in space. So another situation where Surfer's speed does nothing. Plus, Surfer knew what to expect from another herald, but not from this team.


Can you prove it, considering Apocalypse can generate various types of energy which could serve as a propellant for him, whether he's a transformed vehicle or not. Also, again your referring to the Surfer's travel speed in hyper space if he's going light speed and beyond. Since the surfer has limits on his speed in normal space, and even more so if he's fighting.


How did you come to the conclusion that SS>>>>>Ikaris since they both have cosmic power and can both Increase their strength to Hulk levels. In addition, Ikaris is the most Powerful Eternal on Earth. So judging by that comment I not sure if you read the Evolutionary War. Since the Eternals easily captured Silver Surfer and were going to deliver him to the He. So I don't see how the Surfer is Superior to Ikaris. In addition, if the Surfer is so far above the Top Earth Eternal why can't he scratch Thanos.

First, there is NO WAY that Sinister can touch Surfer telepathically. If Moondragon with the MIND GEM can't do it, what chance does Sinister have?
Second, Magneto's shields survived when Galactus GLANCED at their base, it wasn't him actually attempting to kill them.
Third, so Apocalypse can adjust his body? If he can take on the Surfer... why didn't he just do that when he was fighting all the other people who were beating him up?
Also, Morg has incredible speed as well as all of the rest of Galactus' heralds.
I don't see how Apocalypse knowing where the Surfer is will help, since all it tells him is exactly what direction death is coming from.

Again Evolutionary does not function at the speed in which SS fights, he moves at human peak. SS is one of the most fastest and agile fighter in space. Apoc. is nowhere as agile in space fights against WM Thor, Runner, or Quazar who has manage to land blows against SS. Apoc. wouldnt last long against SS in space, He needs machine to sense people at far distance and he wouldnt have time to operate it.

Thor possess near godlike reflex, and is in the light speed speed department. Spiderman is one of the fastest combatant out there, alot more faster than Apoc. SS has low and high feats... like anyother superheroes in comics.


Apoc. wouldnt have time to play w/ his sensor equipment cause SS would be all over them. Again Morg is a herald being meant to function in space, he is quite fast, SS beat the crap out of Morg and could have killed him. This team have never faced opponent at SS level of speed.

Where do you get this information Apoc. being able to generate various types of energy, you are making this up as you go. Again SS has been shown to function at the speed of light, godlike reflex, i dont have time to put all his speed feat. so just check the respect tread.

Ikaris is in the 40 ton department, while SS is over 100 and can amp. greater, Ikaris can fly at 1.1 x at the speed of sound, SS choose to fly at mach 8 fear of causing damage invironmentally, SS matter manipulation is way above that of Ikaris, Which means SS>>>>>>>>Ikaris. And Thanos well read about him..
Again nothing that you have showed me can even come close to hurting SS, plain and simple. While we have shown you feats of how SS can beat the four.

Originally posted by Rols
Again Evolutionary does not function at the speed in which SS fights, he moves at human peak. SS is one of the most fastest and agile fighter in space. Apoc. is nowhere as agile in space fights against WM Thor, Runner, or Quazar who has manage to land blows against SS. Apoc. wouldnt last long against SS in space, He needs machine to sense people at far distance and he wouldnt have time to operate it.

Actually if you read the Evolutionary War the Evolutionary is defiantly fighting at a high speed. Have you read The Xfactor annual during the Evolutionary war since both Apocalypse and the Evolutionary are shown to be very agile in space when they fight. In addition, in Thor 473 the Evolutionary is seen flying at high speeds through space. So, High Evolutionary is definitely faster than peak human. In addition, Apocalypse has sensors on his body which can pick up people from far distances.



What is this in the light speed department , since Thor can't fight at light speed. In addition, neither does Thor fly that fast, but could probably reach escape velocity. As for Spiderman being a fast combatant, he is but faster than Apocalypse since when. Considering in the early xfactor issues Apocalypse easily out fought the team with his quickness and ability to elongate and by making his arms weapons. Plus, Apocalypse was quick enough to counter Beast and Quicksilver, showing how he can adapt to agility and speed.


Again, Apocalypse has sensors on his body, which would pick up the Surfer. So Apocalypse won't need an outside machine. Since when has Surfer fought at speeds equivalent to speeds he travels at in hyper space. Considering I've read Surfer comics and Surfer has fought Thor, who doesn't fight at light speed, and Champion,who also doesn't fight at light speed, and has had trouble. So obviously the Surfer doesn't fight at the speeds he travels, but still is very fast. However, so are Magneto and Apocalypse, since they can both move quickly through space.



Well, first in the Xfactor annual in the Evolutionary War Apocalypse transforms his chest into a cannon, and later makes rockets at his feet while fighting the Evolutionary. But, nearing the end of the fight transforms into a high speed vehicle with different propellant than the rockets. Which shows he can transform into complex vehicles or weapons and produce complex molecular reactions inside his body to produce various forms of energy. Also in Uncanny xmen 295 Apocalypse's energy focuses directly on increasing his strength, which shows that Apocalypse can either tap or generate various types of energy to serve different needs. So, I'm not making this up, just referring to issues that I've read.




In terms of strength the Surfer can reach class 100 and surpass it, however only after using his power cosmic. Since the Surfer's base strength is below class 100. As for Ikaris, he has cosmic power, so he could also increase his strength into that class. Considering even Olympians and Asgardian Gods who aren't class 100 also use their powers to amplify their strength to class 100. Also referring to Ikaris's speed, he easily reached Apocalypse's ship in orbit, so he's much faster. Plus, I have read about Thanos over the years and seen his feats.



Actually Apocalypse and Magneto could harm the Surfer, since even the Surfer can be harmed if hit with enough force. Considering Apocalypse is strong enough, and versatile enough to hit the Surfer, In addition, Magneto could then assault the Surfer, which will also harm the Surfer if he can't avoid the attacks while dealing with Apocalypse. Also, in Silver Surfer 71 it's shown with enough physical force the Surfer can be ko, since he was by Morg. As for the feats shown on how Surfer could beat the four, I citied issues where Magneto shielded against Galactus and Phoenix, so Magneto's shields would also hold up against the Surfer's attacks. In addition, I explained how Surfer's powerful attacks wouldn't hit Apocalypse, since he was able to evade all of the Evolutionary's attacks.

post some scans that says they're fighting at above super human speed in space, considering this chars. in bio, does not posses super human speed. Quit referring to the Apoc. and Evolutionary fight well you, it is well known that those 2 does not function at said speed. Again show some feats of him fighting someone who is a lot faster than him or show that he possess lightspeed reflexes. Ie(example). Cable fighting lightmaster(travel at the speed of taught) show me Apoc. fighting somebody like that. or close to it.

Thor is a lot faster than Apoc. He can fly at the speed of light, Godlike reflex, absorbes all forms of energy via Mjonir, this is why he is match to Surfer. Apoc. has never been shown to have this kind of feat. He has mostly fought and is defeated by the X-men<<<<<<<<Surfer.

Do you read Spiderman, are you saying Apoc. is as agile and fast as that. Would you read Apoc. bio, nothing is said about him being, able to track meteors, at 100 lightyears away or having sensors in his body, If you have scans post it.

Post some scans of Apoc. using his sensors. Surfer has fought at said speed, avoided meteor storms being hurled while going as fast as he could, fought the Runner, there is a lot of feat in his respect thread regarding his speed, Also checked Thor respect thread, you'll find out that his not Apoc. . Again show me scans where Magneto and Apoc. fought so fast in space that they can nearly match SS speed in battle cuase as far as i know, they are peak human in speed and reflex.

Scans!!! Is that what was Narrated? Does it actually says that he used Ie. EM energy to fuel his strength or Gamma for his shield. Post some scans to prove it, or direct as to site where it says it. I have most X-men issues and the Apoc. your describing am not too familiar with.

I dont know where your getting all this info.. I've shown you proff of what he is capable of, yet just disregard it and make your own assumption. Again if you have proof or Scans to prove your point then ill gladly accept it. But right now your making a moot point. Okay you know about Thanos so quit comparing him to any of this team or the rest of the Eternals.

You have no proof of both mastering strength equal to that of Morg. Apoc. have never been shown to punch and destroy a planet, or move at such speed that could caugth SS unaware and be hit. Again Morg is not 1 of this 2 or both have never shown to have feat that Morg has done. Show me some scans of Magneto defending against blast from Phoenix and Galactus, because ive diff. versions of it.

Originally posted by Rols
post some scans that says they're fighting at above super human speed in space, considering this chars. in bio, does not posses super human speed. Quit referring to the Apoc. and Evolutionary fight well you, it is well known that those 2 does not function at said speed. Again show some feats of him fighting someone who is a lot faster than him or show that he possess lightspeed reflexes. Ie(example). Cable fighting lightmaster(travel at the speed of taught) show me Apoc. fighting somebody like that. or close to it.

First, I referred to how Apocalypse very low on power easily managed to hit Quicksilver. Then, I also cited when the Evolutionary ko Thor and flew at high speeds through space. In addition, Sinister, Apocalypse, and Nefaria have reflexes way above peak human. Plus, Magneto with his magnetic powers can react quickly to many super fast beings. Also, whats Cable have to do with this fight, considering anyone on the team can outfight him. Also Lightmaster wasn't moving that fast ,and Spiderman has dealt with him before. So Cable beating Lightmaster doesn't mean Cable has lightspeed reflexes. I mean Living Laser can travel at lightspeed, however thats not the speed he fights, considering Ironman can fight him. So the Surfer can travel at lightspeed and several times faster statement means nothing for the Surfer since he doesn't fight at those speeds.


Since when could Thor fly at the speed of light. Considering I've read Thor comics, and he never flies that fast. In addition, as for Thor's reflexes both Magneto and Nefaria have fought Thor before. Thor's reflexes and power didn't present a problem. As for Apocalypse fighting and loosing to the Xmen, when has he lost when he has a stable body. Considering in X-cutioners song Apocalypse, with his body breaking down easily ko six xmen in sixty seconds. However, Apocalypse didn't finish them meaning he obviously has never planned to defeat the Xmen. So when under normal conditions he could easily beat the Xmen, so X-men<<<<<<<<Surfer has means nothing to Apocalypse or the rest of the teams power. In addition, you've shown nothing to prove Thor has faster reflexes than Apocalypse, considering Apocalypse could also elongate.
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Yes, I read spiderman, however Apocalypse was shown to be very agile and quick back in Xfactor. I also posted some scans, which show Apocalypse has sensors in his body. As for 100 lighyears away whats the have to do with this fight since the Surfer isn't going to be 100 light years away, since he would have to enter hyperspace to go that far.



I've read plenty of Thor to know he can't fight a lightspeed. Also both Magneto and Nefaria have fared well against Thor in fights before. Again, Apocalypse is not peak human in speed and reflex, neither is Sinister or Nefaria. Since Nefaria is way above superhuman, and Sinister has superhuman reflexes, and Apocalypse can adjust his.



Read the issue! Since I have cited issues showing his strength against powerful opponents. As for Apocalypse in Xmen a lot of his abilities, which were displayed in his fights against He, Loki, and Ikaris weren't used when he fought against the Xmen.



The references to Thanos were about your statements that Surfer fights at lightspeed and the power of his blast. However, I've read issues when Surfer directly attacks Thanos with his blast, which had no affect on Thanos. But, Magus managed beat around Thanos and overwhelmed him. Proving class 100 strength hits work on Surfer and even Thanos, yet the Surfer couldn't harm Thanos. So, considering the Team has Nefaria, who is easily class 100, and Apocalypse, who is also class 100, and variable in both size and density means Surfer has to deal with two powerhouses.In addition, Magneto has a lot of power behind his attacks and can lift object way over 100 tons. Not sure about Sinister's strength limits, but he has superhuman strength and reflexes.



I've already cited issues, about Nefaria, Magneto, and Apocalypse. Also Nefaria's strength was enough to handle an Avengers team. In addition, Nefaria has durability that stood up with a direct shot from Thor's hammers, and Apocalypse easily manhandled Hulk. So, Their strength is enough for the Surfer, since the Surfer's base strength isn't class 100. Plus, I cited Magneto's shield feats against Galactus and phoenix in a previous post.

What issue was that when he hit Quicksilver? Quicksilver is no SS and dont forget they're fighting in Space. Thor has grown a lot more powerfull over the years, Evo. has lost to Hulk and Hulk lost to Thor, So how do you Explain that? When did Thor KO'd by Evo? You are seriously understamation SS here, in terms of speed. Okay i admit this guys are a bit faster than normal human, But seriously SS is way faster than this guys. I know his been hit by the likes of Champion, Hulk, Namor, but he fights them H2h which he really does not have to considering his has other abilities.

I mentioned cable as an example cause you are always referring to the fight between Apoc. and Evo which both possess peak human speed as said in there bio. Lightmaster was using his lightspeed when fighting but stop to talk and Cable took advantage of that, the 1st few panel shows Cable being ass kicked, after he beat him. Since when did Spiderman dealt with Lightmaster?

Mjonir allows him to flight at SofL. You havent read many Thor comics, his been shown on comic panel to traverse lightspeed. Again Thor has grown powerfull since you last read it.

Are you freaking kidding me? Apoc. has never won any battle against the X-men and your excuse is because he doesnt wanna win, thats bull. He couldnt even put down Wolverine and Havok in Wolvering/Havok mini, and he was not weakend in any sort. In execuitoner he lost to his Dark riders and could have been killed by Archangel if wanted to. X-men>>Apoc.<<SS. Thor has been shown on comics to be quite fast, Apoc. has never been shown to move fast at all, just because he can elongate does not mean his got quick reflex.
Your scans are quite small and most doesnt work.

Again thats freakin Thanos. Thanos>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Apoc.
Again no proof to prove your point. However SS easily took hits from the likes of Champion w/ and witout Wristbands/or power gem and Hulk to no injuries.
SS mostlikely jobb to Thanos.

What makes you say that? http://www.knightmare6.com/faq/cosmic_entities_marvel/silver_surfer.html it says 100 class and then more.

Show the scans buddy.

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rroldz/detail?.dir=79d8scd&.dnm=311ascd.jpg&.src=ph
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rroldz/detail?.dir=79d8scd&.dnm=6ae1scd.jpg&.src=ph
That could have easily been a punch or a blast, and thats a speedblits.
Being able to retreat 100 lightyear to stay out of Apoc. sensor then speedblits like above scan at that speed.

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rroldz/detail?.dir=79d8scd&.dnm=495escd.jpg&.src=ph
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rroldz/detail?.dir=79d8scd&.dnm=f280scd.jpg&.src=ph
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rroldz/detail?.dir=79d8scd&.dnm=7e3escd.jpg&.src=ph
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rroldz/detail?.dir=79d8scd&.dnm=89cascd.jpg&.src=ph
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rroldz/detail?.dir=79d8scd&.dnm=bc3cscd.jpg&.src=ph
It does'nt show him fighting but its kinda similar, controlled meteorshower, avoiding meteors at near lightspeed.

This is whats going to happen to Nefaria if he somehow survived the first assault :http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rroldz/detail?.dir=79d8scd&.dnm=a5d5scd.jpg&.src=ph
This one shows he can control energy beings with use of there own energies:
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rroldz/detail?.dir=79d8scd&.dnm=5b03scd.jpg&.src=ph
Here another type of attack, Warping the matter of space through the used of SofL:
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rroldz/detail?.dir=79d8scd&.dnm=f4aescd.jpg&.src=ph
Heres His board Bomb + he can make a few of this:
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rroldz/detail?.dir=79d8scd&.dnm=fb8bscd.jpg&.src=ph
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rroldz/detail?.dir=79d8scd&.dnm=2acbscd.jpg&.src=ph
Transforms All matter to energy including Psychic(Psionic):
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rroldz/detail?.dir=79d8scd&.dnm=5355scd.jpg&.src=ph

Heres some of his defensive abilities:
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rroldz/detail?.dir=79d8scd&.dnm=5202scd.jpg&.src=ph his is desame girl that attack Tyrant.
Heres his shield: + he can make it so big to dwarf a whole Island.
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rroldz/detail?.dir=79d8scd&.dnm=2b3escd.jpg&.src=ph
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rroldz/detail?.dir=79d8scd&.dnm=3b19scd.jpg&.src=ph
Absorbing psionic energy and throw it back:
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rroldz/detail?.dir=79d8scd&.dnm=e905scd.jpg&.src=ph
Another psionic defensive/offensive attack against Pure psionic Cosmic Entities:
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rroldz/detail?.dir=79d8scd&.dnm=ec60scd.jpg&.src=ph
Absorbes energy attack and limitless red giant star energy:
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rroldz/detail?.dir=79d8scd&.dnm=801dscd.jpg&.src=ph
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rroldz/detail?.dir=79d8scd&.dnm=2ce1scd.jpg&.src=ph
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rroldz/detail?.dir=79d8scd&.dnm=9341scd.jpg&.src=ph
Here SS withstanding Full assault w/ Mind gem from Moondragoon:
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rroldz/detail?.dir=79d8scd&.dnm=c0a0scd.jpg&.src=ph
Here withstanding AstroBlast like nothing:
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rroldz/detail?.dir=79d8scd&.dnm=7412scd.jpg&.src=ph
Surviving and fighting inside Blackhole:
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rroldz/detail?.dir=79d8scd&.dnm=d453scd.jpg&.src=ph
Went through Sun, and felt great afterwards, not many heroes can do that :
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rroldz/detail?.dir=79d8scd&.dnm=f906scd.jpg&.src=ph
Seing past/present/future very handy in battle: How can you battle someone who knows whats your next move?
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rroldz/detail?.dir=79d8scd&.dnm=fb93scd.jpg&.src=ph
How can you fight somebody, who can become intangible or can shrink smaller than an atom?
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rroldz/detail?.dir=79d8scd&.dnm=96f9scd.jpg&.src=ph
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rroldz/detail?.dir=79d8scd&.dnm=6ad3scd.jpg&.src=ph
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rroldz/detail?.dir=79d8scd&.dnm=c9adscd.jpg&.src=ph

If you still think, this 4 can beat SS? Post some scans of this 4 having higher feat than this?

wow, i knew surfer would whoop these fools, but after seeing those scans, well he does the same thing as i thought.
and rols do you have the scans of him absorbing the star, in a bigger format?
that would help me.

Which one? The one in Infinity Crusade? Most of this scan i got from the respect thread.

the one where he absorbed the star, unless there were more of them, nah, ill just check out his respect, you just keep owning this fool.

there's a few, him absorbing star.. I mean.. It should be on respect thread dough or just google it.

Don't worry everyone... I finally found this thread.

Surfer shit on them.

Surfer wins with embarrassing ease.

team would put up a great fight imo w/2 weeks prep,its not like there all dumb asses.
still that being said surfer would still win.