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Combatants:

a. Exar Kun, Dark Lord of the Sith, warlord and conquerer.
b. DE Palpatine, Dark Lord of the Sith, Emperor of the galaxy.
c. Naga Sadow, Dark Lord of the Sith (?), Sith Alchemist.
d. Marka Ragnos, Dark Lord of the Sith, Dark Side tyrant.

Setting: The Grand Convocation Chamber of the Galactic Senate (the Senate Rotunda); thus allowing these four Dark Lords to use the environment to their advantage.

Weapons: Each Sith Lord possesses a lightsaber (no Sith swords), and all of their Force attacks.

Round One: Lightsabers only.
Round Two: Force powers only.
Round Three: Anything Goes (except for amulets)
Round Four: Anything Goes (amulets allowed)

Synopsis: The two most powerful post-Ancient Sith and the two most powerful Ancient Sith battle one another for total supremecy.

lol dude why are you copying Mokoto?

Anyways,

1. Kun and Sids.
2. Kun and Sids.
3. Kun and Sids.
4. Kun and Sids. It would be close.

'Synopsis: The two most powerful post-Ancient Sith and the two most powerful Ancient Sith battle one another for total supremecy.'

That would be Tulak Hord and Ajunta Pall versus Darth Sion and Darth revan.

How am I copying Motoko?



We (debators) are fond of doing something on KMC that you're going to have to learn to perform. Want to know what that is? Justification. You have to back up what you say, and I know that that is going to be a completely difficult concept to you, but work on it, please.



Um... no. No, it wouldn't.

Amazing. If a character is mentioned on KotoR, they must be god. However, that taboo - I'm afraid - is vastly incorrect. Each of these combatants are superior to the ones you mentioned.

Originally posted by Escape81
How am I copying Motoko?

You're not, lol. Just because I don't like my versus threads to look like shit ("l0l ex4r kun vS lud0 kr355h!!!// lol wh0 w1ns?!", and neither does Escape (and he made a better detailing than me), doesn't mean he's copying me. In fact, I might just copy his format next time I make a thread, lol.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
You're not, lol. Just because I don't like my versus threads to look like shit ("l0l ex4r kun vS lud0 kr355h!!!// lol wh0 w1ns?!", and neither does Escape (and he made a better detailing than me), doesn't mean he's copying me. In fact, I might just copy his format next time I make a thread, lol.

Oh. Well, lol, I don't think I ever have. I don't simply make a thread that says "who wins?" in the first post. But thanks for the compliments. I love you.

PS - what do you think?

'How am I copying Motoko?'

The fancy thread openers. Dude you know it.

'We (debators) are fond of doing something on KMC that you're going to have to learn to perform. Want to know what that is? Justification. You have to back up what you say, and I know that that is going to be a completely difficult concept to you, but work on it, please.'



'Um... no. No, it wouldn't.

Amazing. If a character is mentioned on KotoR, they must be god. However, that taboo - I'm afraid - is vastly incorrect. Each of these combatants are superior to the ones you mentioned.'

That's right my friend.

Originally posted by Escape81
Combatants:

a. Exar Kun, Dark Lord of the Sith, warlord and conquerer.
b. DE Palpatine, Dark Lord of the Sith, Emperor of the galaxy.
c. Naga Sadow, Dark Lord of the Sith (?), Sith Alchemist.
d. Marka Ragnos, Dark Lord of the Sith, Dark Side tyrant.

Setting: The Grand Convocation Chamber of the Galactic Senate (the Senate Rotunda); thus allowing these four Dark Lords to use the environment to their advantage.

Weapons: Each Sith Lord possesses a lightsaber (no Sith swords), and all of their Force attacks.

Round One: Lightsabers only.
Round Two: Force powers only.
Round Three: Anything Goes (except for amulets)
Round Four: Anything Goes (amulets allowed)

Synopsis: The two most powerful post-Ancient Sith and the two most powerful Ancient Sith battle one another for total supremecy.

Round 1: This is a tough one because we know very little about the abilities of the ancient sith in saber combat, especially since they carried swords. We know they are powerful and quick but its not conclusive.
On this forum I guess since it's inconclusive about the ancient sith, even though Ragnos is a "Champion warrior with tremendous strength", i'd have to give it to the post ancient sith due to principle.

Advantage: Post- Ancient Sith

Round 2: Scenerio A. I'd say the two most powerful ones here would be Ragnos and Sidious, so this is also a tough one. We do not know conclusively if Ragnos can use the drain ability without the scepter, but we do know that Sadow has the amulet and the ancient sith most likely have a defense for it. Since this isn't Yoda, there is less evidence to support Kun or DE Sidious blocking it, as opposed to the ancient sith who created these things. So in this case
Advantage: Ancient Sith

Scenerio B. Sidious gets off his force storm. The problem with this is despite what some people say, he DOES need room to operate it, so the best case scenario is him being able to release it while Kun dies at the hands of the ancient sith, and then he comes out the victor. Worst case scenario is Sidious cannot get it off before Ragnos does something sexy, like use his scepter. However since I don't know if he knows the technique without it, which I think he does, it's inconclusive.
Advantage: Inconclusive

Round 3: Pretty much the same as round 2 except no amulets, meaning the only conclusive thing is Palpatine's Force storm.
Advantage: Post-Ancient Sith

Round 4: With anything goes, I believe this goes to the ancient sith, as Ragnos would drain the two before Sidious has the ability to create his force storm. The amulets would technically cancel each other out, except for the fact that Sadow most likely knows a technique to defend against it as opposed to Kun.
Advantage: Ancient Sith

Please. Go back and see some earlier threads that I've made. Thanks.



Here's the problem: I wasn't kidding.



Oh, okay. Then you've just agreed with me, then.

The amulets were excluded from all but the first round. And, as I told you, Ragnos wouldn't have created the scepter if he didn't need it for its energy.



Ragnos, Sidious, Kun, and Sadow can not use artifacts outside of their weapons.

Ah. Okay. Edited.

Originally posted by Escape81
The amulets were excluded from all but the first round. And, as I told you, Ragnos wouldn't have created the scepter if he didn't need it for its energy.



Ragnos, Sidious, Kun, and Sadow can not use artifacts outside of their weapons.

Ah. Okay. Edited.


Escape we can have this debate all day long about whether they needed their amulets or not. But you should read Nai's argument about the fact that he knew the technique otherwise he wouldn't have put it into his scepter. But that's really irrelevant, I think I made a pretty accurate post.

Exar can probably hold off Ragnos long enough for Sidious to finish Sadow...together, Sidious and Exar can finish Ragnos, even if not seperately. And sadow and Ragnos would likely...not handle sabers too well.

Sidious and Exar can comfortably take most of this. As swordsmen, DE Sidious is likely superior to Naga.

Force only? Tougher. It depends on who falls First. If Sidious pulls off something on Sadow with one of his instakills or uses a smaller force storm-he can control size, probably Exar and Palpatine.

Anything goes without artifacts: Probably a repeat of one of the above two fights. With artifacts? That one's trickier, since Kun can balance Sadow out...or Sidious can use him as a sacrificial lamb as he deals with Marka or uses a smaller version of a force storm...Sidious is likely capable of modifying destructive power as he can use it as a transport engine.

Round 1: Exar Kun and Darth Sidious win.

I think Exar Kun has demonstrated his worth enough with the lightsaber, on top of the fact he is armed with a double bladed lightsaber never seen before by either of these Ancient Sith. Sidious, while I don't think he's kept up with his saber skills, is still a formidable opponent defeating three Jedi Masters in seconds, and they were all described as "four of the Order's finest swordsbeings".

Sadow has never demonstrated any impressive dueling abilities, and neither has Ragnos. And so, based of what we see, and is logical - Exar Kun and DE Sidious take this.

Round 2: Exar Kun and DE Sidious

Since this is Force powers only, I'm assuming it's not including their technology (amulets, sceptor, etc.), so Sidious' Force storm clearly would own Ragnos and Sadow - among his other techniques (Morichro, etc.), As well, Sadow and Exar Kun both know Sith magic and alchemy, but Exar Kun also killed Odan Urr with the swipe of a hand, so I'm inclined to say that Exar Kun and DE Sidious win anyways.

Round 3: Exar Kun and DE Sidious

Clearly, since Exar Kun and DE Sidious won both Force powers and the lightsaber battle - they should win this. Again, it's just adding up all we know about Sidious, who seems to be the most superior in the Force here, and Exar Kun, who seems to be the most superior in dueling abilities.

Round 4: Exar Kun and DE Sidious

I assume this isn't including Ragnos' sceptor? Either way, Kun has shown us more abilities with Sadow's amulet than Sadow himself (doesn't necessarily mean he's the superior in using it though), and I'm going to say that Exar can hold off Sadow with his own amulet anyways, so I'd say Exar and Sidious win, though this battle will be more difficult than the others likely.

Originally posted by Escape81
Here's the problem: I wasn't kidding.

LOL.



Nai was saying he'd have to know how to use the technique for him to put it in his sceptor, right (I only skimmed through it)? How does that make sense? Can Sadow cause solar manipulations without his ship? Can he shoot beams out of his ass? Can Exar Kun trap life energy without the sphere he made?

Sounds like escape made a great thread, I'll be back later with my rebuttal Sama, Escape.

Good points gentlemen (and the lovely lady... ).

Why thank you.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
Why thank you.

Erm... excluding you.

ORYL?

Hrm....


LS pretty much proved thay DE Palps is the most powerful sith of all time. And I would guess that Exar Kun is more powerful than Naga Sadow, because Ragnos chose Kun, not Sadow, to lead the sith to a new golden age.

Ragnos is at this point, completely unknown as far as his abilities go. However we have reason to believe that Sidious is more powerful, therefore IMHO Sidious + Kun take this.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Escape we can have this debate all day long about whether they needed their amulets or not. But you should read Nai's argument about the fact that he knew the technique otherwise he wouldn't have put it into his scepter. But that's really irrelevant, I think I made a pretty accurate post.

No, you cannot.

I'm afraid that you have nothing but an assumption and an opinion on your side, whereas my side possesses proof that Sadow and Kun did not use these blasts without the assistance of an amulet. Furthermore, we have already proven that Sadow required his ship to perform his other feat - so why wouldn't the same apply here?

I don't operate on just ironclad proof, but what proof I have overrules your opinion. I tried to explain this concept to GM Nebaris. Just because he has an opinion and so-called "logical deduction" does not mean that either of those things overrules evidence.

Evidence > "logical deduction" - especially when the one performing the 'logical deduction' is illogical. (ie: Lumiya being superior to Sidious; Revan owning all; Sion owning all).

Evidence > "opinion".

So, Motoko, Lightsnake, and myself have proof - whereas you and GM Nebaris do not.

Until such a time that you can prove that Sadow didn't require the amulet blasts or that Ragnos didn't require his scepter, then logical deduction indicates that they required these two artifacts to perform the feats in question. Why else would they need them?

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Nai was saying he'd have to know how to use the technique for him to put it in his sceptor, right (I only skimmed through it)? How does that make sense? Can Sadow cause solar manipulations without his ship? Can he shoot beams out of his ass? Can Exar Kun trap life energy without the sphere he made?

What people commonly ignore regarding this topic is, that we're talking about force powers here and not some physical powers and "tools" able to use them.

So...to create an artifact that is capable of performing a force drain - you must know the "force drain" before. And once you know the technique the "scale" in which it's used is irrelevant. It makes much more sense then simply stating he doesn't know a certain technique but still manages to create a tool which is capable of performing it.

And please.
If some weakass freak like Brakiss can create Solar flares with almost no training, I guess a century old Sith Lord can pull it of.
If Aleema Keto can shoot some energy beams out of her hands that desintegrate flesh - I'm pretty sure that Sadow can do that too.
And if Sidious without any artifacts used can "trap" and "use" the life-energy of the people on Byss, I don't see any reason why Kun shouldn't be able to do the same.

Originally posted by Borbarad
What people commonly ignore regarding this topic is, that we're talking about force powers here and not some physical powers and "tools" able to use them.

So...to create an artifact that is capable of performing a force drain - you must know the "force drain" before. And once you know the technique the "scale" in which it's used is irrelevant. It makes much more sense then simply stating he doesn't know a certain technique but still manages to create a tool which is capable of performing it.

And please.
If some weakass freak like Brakiss can create Solar flares with almost no training, I guess a century old Sith Lord can pull it of.
If Aleema Keto can shoot some energy beams out of her hands that desintegrate flesh - I'm pretty sure that Sadow can do that too.
And if Sidious without any artifacts used can "trap" and "use" the life-energy of the people on Byss, I don't see any reason why Kun shouldn't be able to do the same.


Good points.

Originally posted by Escape81
No, you cannot.

I'm afraid that you have nothing but an assumption and an opinion on your side, whereas my side possesses proof that Sadow and Kun did not use these blasts without the assistance of an amulet. Furthermore, we have already proven that Sadow required his ship to perform his other feat - so why wouldn't the same apply here?

What do you mean I have opinion and assumption? I have an opinion based on logical deduction, which could say a lot more for your apparent absence of proof is proof of absence. And as Nai said, they would have to know certain techniques to be able to put them into the tools, especially the force drain. Things like the amulet blasts are obviously inconclusive and less logical in terms of known abilities, but it is VERY logical to state Sadow likely had a defense for it while Kun did not, so I don't get what's wrong here.

I don't operate on just ironclad proof, but what proof I have overrules your opinion. I tried to explain this concept to GM Nebaris. Just because he has an opinion and so-called "logical deduction" does not mean that either of those things overrules evidence.

And what is your ironclad proof? Absence of proof?



So, Motoko, Lightsnake, and myself have proof - whereas you and GM Nebaris do not.

I resent that comment because I think I provided a more than interesting first post on this topic. Do not compare me to Nebaris and do not tell me you have logical arguments and I do not. "Because they didn't show they could use their abilities without amulets means they can't, is NOT proof.

Until such a time that you can prove that Sadow didn't require the amulet blasts or that Ragnos didn't require his scepter, then logical deduction indicates that they required these two artifacts to perform the feats in question. Why else would they need them?
While you asking me to prove a negative is a logical fallacy, the fact that you're asking me to prove something we know nothing about also doesn't work in this argument. And again as Nai said, these guys HAD to know certain techniques to put into the scepter. I keep explaining to you that the amulets and talismans were multipurpose tools, that channeled force attacks AND recorded history through them. I would like for you to tell me how that is illogical right there, while that is VERY likely why they used amulets and talismans. I think your absence of proof as your focal point is ridiculous, especially when you tell me I have no argument, just opinions.

Know certain techniques? I never denied that they would. Indeed, they would have to. But that does not mean that they themselves knew the exact technique without the amulets!

You keep bringing up on how "well, they were used to record history". If that were just the case, then Sadow nor Ragnos would never have needed to use them in single combat. Wouldn't you agree?

Especially if, as you say, they could do it all on their own.



The absence of proof is not proof of absence crap is getting very annoying. Furthermore, quit using it as some sort of shield. It may be very well that I am right, which is why they were never seen using these feats without the amulets.

Think about it like that.



Nor is the "absence of proof is not proof of absence" maneuver that you are fond of using! In fact, I can use that same little excuse to say that DE Sidious possessed the ability to drain the Force on Ragnos's level - as we've proven that he has more knowledge than Ragnos did. I can also say that he could perform Nihilius's feats - or Traya's.

You can't disprove it. "absence of proof is not proof of absence".



I never denied that they didn't know something of these techniques. But that they could do it themselves makes absolutely no sense!

If Sadow used these amulets for just "recording history", they would not be needed in single combat. Especially when that would make him dependant on the amulet itself.

Furthermore, if they have to "channel" their abilities - it only speaks to prove that they could not replicate the same feats themselves.

No offense Nai, but I'd like for you to explain to me why, then, they'd require these tools in the first place. If I possess the ability to cut diamond without any help - I wouldn't use a laser. If I possess the ability to fly - I wouldn't require an airplane. If I had my perfect vision - I wouldn't require contact lenses.

I never denied that Ragnos didn't know Force drain, and it is equally illogical to state that he knew the exact technique, but then created a tool for it.

So, I'd say he knew the Force drain, but nothing near that magnitude.

Especially when that tool could be taken and used against him. Especially when that would make him dependant on that tool. Especially when, otherwise, he'd have zero motivation to build it.

Originally posted by Escape81
Know certain techniques? I never denied that they would. Indeed, they would have to. But that does not mean that they themselves knew the exact technique without the amulets!

It is possible but you're saying that your specific opinion is more logical than mine, I fail to see how.

You keep bringing up on how "well, they were used to record history". If that were just the case, then Sadow nor Ragnos would never have needed to use them in single combat. Wouldn't you agree?

What do you think is the goal of multipurpose tools? Convenience? Anyhow that is just an assumption. Could be logical could be not, depends on how you see it.


The absence of proof is not proof of absence crap is getting very annoying. Furthermore, quit using it as some sort of shield. It may be very well that I am right, which is why they were never seen using these feats without the amulets.

Stop using it as a shield? I'll stop using it when you stop telling me that "Because they used amulets, etc, means they couldn't do things without their amulets otherwise they wouldn't need them".


Nor is the "absence of proof is not proof of absence" maneuver that you are fond of using! In fact, I can use that same little excuse to say that DE Sidious possessed the ability to drain the Force on Ragnos's level - as we've proven that he has more knowledge than Ragnos did. I can also say that he could perform Nihilius's feats - or Traya's.

You can't disprove it. "absence of proof is not proof of absence".

Uh disprove what? We know DE Sidious had the force drain and did possess it on the level of Ragnos because his scepter and Sidious do the EXACT same thing. But course you're going to say Ragnos didn't know it at that level when it's clear he did otherwise he wouldn't be able to create that scepter. Not to mention it's also a sword, hence my Multipurpose convenience theory.



If Sadow used these amulets for just "recording history", they would not be needed in single combat. Especially when that would make him dependant on the amulet itself.

Who said they were just for recording history? I said MULTIPURPOSE dude, it is logical to assume they used it to channel the force, record history, decorative garments, etc. It does seem convenient.

Furthermore, if they have to "channel" their abilities - it only speaks to prove that they could not replicate the same feats themselves.

Is that right? And what do you mean they HAVE to channel their abilities, I said they could, and creating the amulet is a good way of doing so. Like I said, I am not arguing the likes of the amulet blasts or the tearing the core from the sun, but you show me someone else that had an ability on that level. The fact of the matter is that they KNEW these techniques(some may not be on that level and some may be, we don't really know for sure).

Originally posted by Escape81
No offense Nai, but I'd like for you to explain to me why, then, they'd require these tools in the first place. If I possess the ability to cut diamond without any help - I wouldn't use a laser. If I possess the ability to fly - I wouldn't require an airplane. If I had my perfect vision - I wouldn't require contact lenses.

Like a said, they could be multipurpose tools for convenience, or for the simple fact that they were sith alchemists and they practiced sith magic, and this is the way they did it. Does it mean they didn't know the techniques? Hardly. But my assumption in this matter is as good as yours.

I never denied that Ragnos didn't know Force drain, and it is equally illogical to state that he knew the exact technique, but then created a tool for it.

Why is it equally illogical to state that he knew that force drain? Nihilus and Traya were both on Malachor V before they learned it, but somehow it's illogical to assume Ragnos who possessed a frightening grasp of the darkside(which is somewhat ambiguous but would make sense if you consider certain force abilities) could know the technique? And again his scepter turns into a sword, so I find that very convenient if anything.


Especially when that tool could be taken and used against him. Especially when that would make him dependant on that tool. Especially when, otherwise, he'd have zero motivation to build it.
Tool can be taken and used against him? Where did we see this exactly? And who cares if he becomes dependant on the tool, that doesn't mean he doesn't know the technique, that means he just grew complacent with using the tool, what does it matter?

I actually just thought of something: what Nai says makes sense, so do you not think it's possible that they just used their amulets and items so that they could save time and energy? Maybe through the amulets, they could instantly use the technique rather then having to take time and prepare. And maybe while they could have performed these techniques without the amulets, maybe it required a lot of energy and was very tiring to perform, thus they used the amulets so the technique would not ware them down. Does this make sense?

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
I actually just thought of something: what Nai says makes sense, so do you not think it's possible that they just used their amulets and items so that they could save time and energy? Maybe through the amulets, they could instantly use the technique rather then having to take time and prepare. And maybe while they could have performed these techniques without the amulets, maybe it required a lot of energy and was very tiring to perform, thus they used the amulets so the technique would not ware them down. Does this make sense?


Wow Nebaris, surprisingly that makes perfect sense, especially in the case of sith illusions. We know Sadow could create a whole fleet, now whether or not he needed the meditation sphere is inconclusive(most likely he didn't since it was only a meditation sphere). We see DN Luke I think in the Black Fleet Crisis do the exact same thing but with 1 ship, and afterwards he looked like he aged trying to do what Sadow did rather easily. This is your first useful post since I've been here.

What the hell?

You're making absolutely zero sense.

Originally posted by Escape81
What the hell?

You're making absolutely zero sense.

Me?

I'm just arguing that maybe they just made the amulets out of convenience.

ragnos and sadow take this.........
ragnos has a difficult time with palps (assuming he doesn't use the cleverness that brought him to power and bow down) but eventuallydefeatshim
sadow owns kun by making him fight illusions then decapitatin him while kun aint looking

While I would love to use the illusions bit for Sadow's advantage, I doubt he's going to be able to create them and fight either Kun or Palpatine at the same time. Anyways Escape you should reread my theory as to why they use the amulet. For once GM makes sense in terms of convenience.

EDIT

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
While I would love to use the illusions bit for Sadow's advantage, I doubt he's going to be able to create them and fight either Kun or Palpatine at the same time. Anyways Escape you should reread my theory as to why they use the amulet. For once GM makes sense in terms of convenience.

lol dude stop saying for once. When I want to, I can make perfectly valid points.

EDIT

Conveniance?

Okay. I'd love to see this theory. Hope you have something to back it up.

EDIT

Originally posted by Darth Ownage


Read the first post, please. There are "rules" and "guidelines" to this thread, as well as four rounds. Furthermore, back up what you say, please.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Wow Nebaris, surprisingly that makes perfect sense, especially in the case of sith illusions. We know Sadow could create a whole fleet, now whether or not he needed the meditation sphere is inconclusive(most likely he didn't since it was only a meditation sphere). We see DN Luke I think in the Black Fleet Crisis do the exact same thing but with 1 ship, and afterwards he looked like he aged trying to do what Sadow did rather easily. This is your first useful post since I've been here.

This is getting ridiculous. DS, I would strongly suggest that you think about what you say. As I recall, you confessed that the amulets "channeled" and "augmented" Sadow's and Kun's latent powers to create the amulet blasts. That in itself just adds more ammunition to my argument.

Think about what the meditation sphere did. It, like the amulets and Sadow's ship - focused and augmented Sadow's energy in order to perform the feat required. In the case of Luke, he had no artifacts to assist him - which is why such a usage of the Force seemed to age him exponentially.

Now, unless you're going to argue that Sadow > Luke (in essence, committing virtual suicide as far as credibility is concerned), how are you going to explain that?

It's rather simple. Sadow had access to technology which augmented and focused his power and allowed him to do the feats responsible.

Originally posted by Escape81
This is getting ridiculous. DS, I would strongly suggest that you think about what you say. As I recall, you confessed that the amulets "channeled" and "augmented" Sadow's and Kun's latent powers to create the amulet blasts. That in itself just adds more ammunition to my argument.

Think about what the meditation sphere did. It, like the amulets and Sadow's ship - focused and augmented Sadow's energy in order to perform the feat required. In the case of Luke, he had no artifacts to assist him - which is why such a usage of the Force seemed to age him exponentially.

Now, unless you're going to argue that Sadow > Luke (in essence, committing virtual suicide as far as credibility is concerned), how are you going to explain that?

It's rather simple. Sadow had access to technology which augmented and focused his power and allowed him to do the feats responsible.


You're right, because Sadow created whole fleets with an amulet. And his meditation sphere? It was nothing more than that, unless of course he should be on the battlefield creating monstrosities instead of sitting quietly in his chambers and doing it.

And because character X created a greater feat or a certain feat on a greater scale does not make him better than character Y

If people wanna play the illusions game, Palpatine's a feaking master of quey'tek and doppleganger...meaning he's damn, damn good at illusions. and he can cut himself off from the other's senses and give them multiple targets

Originally posted by Lightsnake
If people wanna play the illusions game, Palpatine's a feaking master of quey'tek and doppleganger...meaning he's damn, damn good at illusions. and he can cut himself off from the other's senses and give them multiple targets yeah we know but hentai plus raging darkside/horny want-it-can't-have-it-as-jedi-do-whatever-as-sith manlyman and palps is out one Exar Kun

Well lightsnake that's all good but I'm saying Sadow is the god of illusions, and I already made it clear that it's unlikely he'll be able to use them while in a constant battle with either Kun or Sidious.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You're right, because Sadow created whole fleets with an amulet. And his meditation sphere? It was nothing more than that, unless of course he should be on the battlefield creating monstrosities instead of sitting quietly in his chambers and doing it.

And because character X created a greater feat or a certain feat on a greater scale does not make him better than character Y

He only performed that certain feat with the assistance of an amulet.

Originally posted by Escape81
Conveniance?

Okay. I'd love to see this theory. Hope you have something to back it up.

Dude, the thing is, in your thread in the EU section, you claimed that the only explanation for Sadow and Ragnos creating and using those amulets is because they couldn't cause as much destruction without them. that is very illogical, as there are a number of other plausible explanations, such as the convenience factor.

Originally posted by Escape81
He only performed that certain feat with the assistance of an amulet.

He created an army of illusions with the amulet? Interesting. I didn't know that from his "I must concentrate and use the forbidden sith ways" dialogue. And I've provided a lot of reasons as to why they needed the amulets while you've provided the "they use them so theres no reason to think they can go without them" logic.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
Dude, the thing is, in your thread in the EU section, you claimed that the only explanation for Sadow and Ragnos creating and using those amulets is because they couldn't cause as much destruction without them. that is very illogical, as there are a number of other plausible explanations, such as the convenience factor.

No. What is illogical is your unsupported assumption that Ragnos and Sadow could do all of the same feats themselves, without any help or assistance from these artifacts.

What did they carry them around for, then? Fashion trend? Which Sith Lord had the bigger bling?

Random Sith Lord X: Dude, why the hell are you carrying around that crap if you can perform these uber powers without them? I mean, especially when they could possibly be taken from you and used against you. Kind've illogical, don't you think?

Sadow: Nah. The reason I carry this weapon that could be uber powerful in someone else's hands - and even though I've never been seen using these powers without the amulets - I just carry them around for a fashion statement.

Ragnos: Hell... I haven't ever been witnessed using any Force power, and yet everyone assumes I can do the same thing that my scepter can myself.

Cool.

Sorry, DS. But if you think your theory that "they could perform these tricks without any help from the amulets, even though they've never been seen doing it without them, and even though Kun never used an amulet blast before he got ahold of Sadow's amulets" is logical, then you're dreaming.

Originally posted by Escape81
No. What is illogical is your unsupported assumption that Ragnos and Sadow could do all of the same feats themselves, without any help or assistance from these artifacts.

What did they carry them around for, then? Fashion trend? Which Sith Lord had the bigger bling?

Random Sith Lord X: Dude, why the hell are you carrying around that crap if you can perform these uber powers without them? I mean, especially when they could possibly be taken from you and used against you. Kind've illogical, don't you think?

Sadow: Nah. The reason I carry this weapon that could be uber powerful in someone else's hands - and even though I've never been seen using these powers without the amulets - I just carry them around for a fashion statement.

Ragnos: Hell... I haven't ever been witnessed using any Force power, and yet everyone assumes I can do the same thing that my scepter can myself.

Cool.

Sorry, DS. But if you think your theory that "they could perform these tricks without any help from the amulets, even though they've never been seen doing it without them, and even though Kun never used an amulet blast before he got ahold of Sadow's amulets" is logical, then you're dreaming.

Here's is what is logical escape. Certain abilities like blowing up the sun and amulet blasts require the amulets. HOWEVER, we see Nihilus and Traya using a technique DERIVED from the ancient sith, so it is LOGICAL to assume that if Traya and Nihilus can learn the technique, then the Ancient Sith knew it regardless of amulets. You're telling me that they studied ancient sith knowledge and in that knowledge the ancient sith said "We do not know this technique without the amulets so if you want to use this you must create an amulet"? Come on Escape.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Here's is what is logical escape. Certain abilities like blowing up the sun and amulet blasts require the amulets. HOWEVER, we see Nihilus and Traya using a technique DERIVED from the ancient sith, so it is LOGICAL to assume that if Traya and Nihilus can learn the technique, then the Ancient Sith knew it regardless of amulets. You're telling me that they studied ancient sith knowledge and in that knowledge the ancient sith said "We do not know this technique without the amulets so if you want to use this you must create an amulet"? Come on Escape.

Nihilius took his ability to new heights, performing feats without the assistance of any Ancient Sith artifact. Most of DE Sidious's information and knowledge derived from the Ancient Sith. However, his Force Storm blows theirs to hell and back, not to mention that - when all's said and done - he has more knowledge than they do.

Point being, the Ancient Sith possess the basics as far as the draining, blasts, and so forth. But not on the magnitude at which the amulets, scepter, and artifacts gave them.

That makes the most sense.

Originally posted by Escape81
Nihilius took his ability to new heights, performing feats without the assistance of any Ancient Sith artifact. Most of DE Sidious's information and knowledge derived from the Ancient Sith. However, his Force Storm blows theirs to hell and back, not to mention that - when all's said and done - he has more knowledge than they do.

Point being, the Ancient Sith possess the basics as far as the draining, blasts, and so forth. But not on the magnitude at which the amulets, scepter, and artifacts gave them.

That makes the most sense.


That makes the most sense to YOU. Because again, you are saying they have only the basics, and that is nothing but an assumption. Again I'm telling you that because both Traya and Nihilus were able to come up with the same technique, although one is on a greater scale as a result of becoming a wound in the force, while studying on the same planet with ancient sith knowledge, then it is obvious that certain techniques created by the ancient sith did not require artifacts. Unless of course, Traya and Nihilus>Ancient Sith. And again maybe his force storm blows them to hell and back, but some of their techniques blow him away too. As for him knowing more than them, not sure if that's quite accurate considering that he got EVERYTHING from them and created more. Then again that might mean he knows more.

Do you recall, earlier, when I advised you to be careful of what you say? You would do well to adhere to it; because all of what you have claimed is classified as an "assumption" as well.

Your double-standards won't work with me, DS. I suggest that you think very clearly and plot another route in this debate.



Traya's version of the Force drain maneuver is considerable. One of the strongest we've seen. Nihilius's, even moreso. He could raze planets. As could Palpatine. Unaided, undaunted, without the assistance of any artifact. Unlike Naga Sadow and Marka Ragnos. In that attack alone, yes, he is naturally superior to both Sadow and Ragnos. As Traya herself may be.

Furthermore, as to the Traya and Nihilius > Ancient Sith, it is arguable. Yes, I would put Nihilius on par with the likes of Luke, Exar, and Palpatine - if only for his single assault. Other than that, he is a virtual unknown. He may be a mere amateur with one single gifted attack.



Hmm... really? Oh, yes. I forgot. Their techniques - which may only be harnessed with the assistance of technology. Hmm. I wonder what terrifying visage of power that Palpatine would become if we gave him Sadow's artifacts.



Yes... I suggest you take the advice above in and adhere to it. Think about what you state, before you state it. But to answer your question, no.

He got everything of what they knew, which is only most of what he knew. He, as we have proven, created and discovered new knowledge, which puts his base of knowledge above the Ancient Sith's.

I'm going to erase everything you just said to prove a point. You think my assumption is illogical and yours is logical. Why? What I base my assumptions are the likes of Malachor V that gave both parties spiffy powers, but all of a sudden the ancient sith DONT know the abilities without the artifacts and Traya and Nihilus both magically learned them. Also we have seen Sadow create illusions on a massive scale proving that the ancient sith only REALLY need the amulets to do somethng insane like amulet blasts and tearing the core from the sun. Unless of course youre going to say they need them to use force lightning and grip, push, etc. I'm going to stick with my assumption because I'm at least backing it up to some extent. You're saying "Well we don't see them NOT using their amulets so that must mean they can't do most things without them!"

I'm glad that you've realized that that is all you have. An assumption. An unsupported one, I might add. Yours is suddenly "logical deduction", but mine is just an "opinion"? Think carefully.

Furthermore, don't erase it. Refute it. If you can.



Ah, need I go back and quote myself on what I said on this subject? I told you that both Ragnos possessed the knowledge of Force drain - but apparently not on that magnitude. I also believe that I said that Sadow possessed the latent ability to perform the amulet blasts - but could not do it at will or that easily without the assistance of an amulet, thus rendering him unable to activate the feat without it.

I never said that they lacked the knowledge. Just the power to harness it. Ragnos may be the most powerful of his time. But that doesn't mean that he possessed the power to raze entire planets of the Force by himself.

Nihilius did. Which is why, if we knew more about him, I'd rank him - easily - as one of the Top Five most powerful Force users that we've seen. Alas, we don't, and I won't base Nihilius's "position of power" due to one ability that - apparently - wasn't always effective.

Try not to twist my words.



Creating "massive illusions" and performing commonplace Force abilities are to fundamentally different things. I said that the Ancient Sith required technology to augment and focus power to perform these spectacular feats.



Really?

"Oh no. Sadow needed the amulets to augment and channel his abilities, but that doesn't mean that he couldn't have done it without them. In fact, it makes more logical sense, as if he did it all the time without the amulets. Oh, wait... they were never seen doing it. And, yet, some how, I'm going to put this guy on par with Exar Kun? Who performed nifty abilities without assistance of technology - save for Sadow's very amulets which he used to create blasts? Or, better yet, Emperor Palpatine - who did all the crap that Ragnos did, possessed more knowledge then any of the Ancient Sith, and pulled off a devastatingly powerful whacky feat! Oh yes, and he did all of it without technology. Wow. Oh, and then I will admit that Sadow needed the amulets a post later, and then deny it in the post after that! Woo-hoo!"



Mm-hmm. And you'd think that that may be a clue...

Oy, long story. This is a nice debate, we'll continue this tomorrow, I'm watching A Walk to Remember.. I mean The Rock. I'll see you tomorrow.

'I also believe that I said that Sadow possessed the latent ability to perform the amulet blasts - but could not do it at will or that easily without the assistance of an amulet, thus rendering him unable to activate the feat without it.'

I basically said the exact same thing, and you called it illogical.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
'I also believe that I said that Sadow possessed the latent ability to perform the amulet blasts - but could not do it at will or that easily without the assistance of an amulet, thus rendering him unable to activate the feat without it.'

I basically said the exact same thing, and you called it illogical.

No. You said that they could do it without the amulet, and merely used it for conveniance. I said that without the amulet, they are unable to activate those feats.

Originally posted by Escape81
I said that without the amulet, they are unable to activate those feats.

Sorry Escape, but these were your exact words - 'but could not do it at will or that easily without the assistance of an amulet' - note the 'or that easily'.

While I'm going to write a novel in a few hours on this as a rebuttal for escape I need to understand something. Escape, Nebaris for once makes sense, but are you trying to tell me that everybody that got techniques from the ancient sith could do it without the use of amulets but the creators of said techniques need their amulets because that's nearly all we've seen?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
While I'm going to write a novel in a few hours on this as a rebuttal for escape I need to understand something. Escape, Nebaris for once makes sense, but are you trying to tell me that everybody that got techniques from the ancient sith could do it without the use of amulets but the creators of said techniques need their amulets because that's nearly all we've seen?

Hold up with the 'for once' stuff.

Originally posted by Escape81
Traya's version of the Force drain maneuver is considerable. One of the strongest we've seen. Nihilius's, even moreso. He could raze planets. As could Palpatine. Unaided, undaunted, without the assistance of any artifact. Unlike Naga Sadow and Marka Ragnos. In that attack alone, yes, he is naturally superior to both Sadow and Ragnos. As Traya herself may be.


Lmao. This is considerable funny, Escape. You are really going to tell us that somebody that descriped Ragnos grasp on the Dark Side as "frightening" comes anywhere close to his force abilities ? The same person that descriped herself as a "child" compared to the Ancients. The same person that said that "there is no strength" in Nihilus ability because he can't really controle it since it works like "hunger" ? That Traya ?

And let's also ingore the fact that some minor female Sith was able to destroy all life on Ambria with a single force pulse. Maybe she pulled that ability out of her ass instead of learning it from the Ancient Sith to whose Empire the planet belonged before...



Except you totally fail to give me proof that this "technology" did give any "assistance" to them. Is it somewhere mentioned that any of this artifacts made a force user more powerful or multiplied his force powers ? No ? I love it how Aleema Keto can desintegrate flesh with a Sith Magic attack but Sadow shouldn't be able to do that. I love how some female Sith can destroy the entire life on Ambria, but some of the Ancients wouldn't be able to do so.

Not that this dumb discussion does make any sense because it's stupid to exclude artifacts that people always wore from their actual power base in the context of versus fights.

ok well that saves me my novel, well said.

One question Sexy: Why do you always call long replies 'novels'? Did you know that td did the same thing?

No? What would you prefer. Stories? Books? Essays?

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
Sorry Escape, but these were your exact words - 'but could not do it at will or that easily without the assistance of an amulet' - note the 'or that easily'.

Don't take that out of context, Nebaris. Read the sentence again and fit it together. "could not do it at will or that easily". The amulets provided the ease that they could activate these powers.

@DS:



DS, re-read what I said. I said that Nihilius is naturally stronger in that Force ability. I never said that they all were. Nor that he was in all abilities.

@Nebaris:



Excuse me, but perhaps DS sees what I do:

- You saying that Revan > Luke.
- You saying that Revan > Ancient Sith
- You saying that Revan > Palpatine and Sion > Palpatine.
- You saying that Lumiya > Palpatine and Vader.
- You saying that Mace > Yoda and Palpatine.

Lastly, aren't you just saying that PT Vader is superior to Palpatine?

'Excuse me, but perhaps DS sees what I do:

- You saying that Revan > Luke.
- You saying that Revan > Ancient Sith
- You saying that Revan > Palpatine and Sion > Palpatine.
- You saying that Lumiya > Palpatine and Vader.
- You saying that Mace > Yoda and Palpatine.

Lastly, aren't you just saying that PT Vader is superior to Palpatine?'




'Don't take that out of context, Nebaris. Read the sentence again and fit it together. "could not do it at will or that easily". The amulets provided the ease that they could activate these powers.'


Sorry dude, but you were contradicting yourself. That's why nobody take you seriously.

Originally posted by Escape81
Don't take that out of context, Nebaris. Read the sentence again and fit it together. "could not do it at will or that easily". The amulets provided the ease that they could activate these powers.

@DS:



DS, re-read what I said. I said that Nihilius is naturally stronger in that Force ability. I never said that they all were. Nor that he was in all abilities.

@Nebaris:



Excuse me, but perhaps DS sees what I do:

- You saying that Revan > Luke.
- You saying that Revan > Ancient Sith
- You saying that Revan > Palpatine and Sion > Palpatine.
- You saying that Lumiya > Palpatine and Vader.
- You saying that Mace > Yoda and Palpatine.

Lastly, aren't you just saying that PT Vader is superior to Palpatine? thanx

You know, Nebaris, I consider myself one of the more modest debators on here. Certainly not on par with some of the debators who consider themselves "logic gods".

See, you and I have different philosophies on debating. I back what I say, you post your rather pathetic opinion. My philosophy is effective, and yours is not.

As for people "not taking me seriously", Nai Fohl aside, I believe I am considered by many to be, frankly, a good debator. Whereas you're not.

Originally posted by Escape81
You know, Nebaris, I consider myself one of the more modest debators on here. Certainly not on par with some of the debators who consider themselves "logic gods".

See, you and I have different philosophies on debating. I back what I say, you post your rather pathetic opinion. My philosophy is effective, and yours is not.

As for people "not taking me seriously", Nai Fohl aside, I believe I am considered by many to be, frankly, a good debator. Whereas you're not.

Oh believe me, I am recognised. And I agree, you are extremely modest. I consider myself on your level in debating, but I don't have your patience.

Cute, Nai. However, notice that I said that Traya may be superior in that one ability. I believe that myself and a few others have already proven that the Ancient Sith don't own everyone, contrary to the former "KMC" unspoken taboo here.



Hmm. Your point? I never denied that they possessed ungodly knowledge. But how will that help them against an opponent who possesses more knowledge than they do?



Motoko and Lightsnake have already proven that Sadow required the ship to have that disasterous effect on those stars. We've never seen Sadow perform amulet blasts without the amulet - unless of course I'm mistaken.

Gee, Nai. Going to pull DS's strategy of "absence of proof isn't proof of absence"?



Rofl. Dumb discussion. Cute Nai. Or does it make you angry that the situation I've placed them in gives both sides a sporting chance? Where Sidious can't get "WTFpwned" like you'd prefer.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
Oh believe me, I am recognised. And I agree, you are extremely modest. I consider myself on your level in debating, but I don't have your patience.

You may think what you will. You put yourself on my level is fine. But does everyone else?

Originally posted by Escape81
You may think what you will. You put yourself on my level is fine. But does everyone else?

Oh yes. I'll show you.


REX - Yeah, right.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
Oh yes. I'll show you.

Erm... like I said. Quit trying to log me out.

Originally posted by Escape81
You may think what you will. You put yourself on my level is fine. But does everyone else?


I don't....

Nebaris, Escape is one of the top 3 debators on this forum, so your stupidity isn't going to work, especially on him. I suggest you quit trolling and unless you have something to contribute, keep your childish antics in the "off topic" forums.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Nebaris, Escape is one of the top 3 debators on this forum, so your stupidity isn't going to work, especially on him. I suggest you quit trolling and unless you have something to contribute, keep your childish antics in the "off topic" forums.

Oh the irony...

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/6797/sign7bz.png

Originally posted by Escape81
Cute, Nai. However, notice that I said that Traya may be superior in that one ability. I believe that myself and a few others have already proven that the Ancient Sith don't own everyone, contrary to the former "KMC" unspoken taboo here.



Hmm. Your point? I never denied that they possessed ungodly knowledge. But how will that help them against an opponent who possesses more knowledge than they do?



Motoko and Lightsnake have already proven that Sadow required the ship to have that disasterous effect on those stars. We've never seen Sadow perform amulet blasts without the amulet - unless of course I'm mistaken.

Gee, Nai. Going to pull DS's strategy of "absence of proof isn't proof of absence"?



Rofl. Dumb discussion. Cute Nai. Or does it make you angry that the situation I've placed them in gives both sides a sporting chance? Where Sidious can't get "WTFpwned" like you'd prefer.

Escape, why are you so adamant about the "Absence of proof" theory. After all, this was your theory from the very beginning. I called you out of it, and so did Nai(who is a much better debator than myself on anything SW related). It doesn't necessarily mean you are wrong but it does show that there's a certain pattern developing..

About Sidious having more knowledge then all th ancient sith. Let me ask you a question and I would like a clear response if possible. If Sidious was so powerful and so much more knowledgable than the ancient sith, why did he have to go to the ancient sith to stop his body from decaying. Why did he believe or know that they could stop it and why did he know that he couldn't? Or in your defense, since he knew everything, why couldn't he have done it himself? If you are going to say he knew more than the ancient sith, and you are going to use the ridiculous "Sidious knows all quote", this is an interesting point you should consider, because apparently Sidious doesn't know all, and he needs to consult the ancient sith for anything he DOESNT know.

Originally posted by Deus Venèficus
Oh the irony...

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/6797/sign7bz.png


Except for the fact that no active credible debator calls me a troll who can't debate, now if I want your opinion I'll ask lightsnake for it. Stop trolling.

Originally posted by Escape81
Cute, Nai. However, notice that I said that Traya may be superior in that one ability. I believe that myself and a few others have already proven that the Ancient Sith don't own everyone, contrary to the former "KMC" unspoken taboo here.


How would Traya be superior in that ability ? She said herself that this can only be mastered to a certain extend (the female Sith on Ambria as well as the thought bomb and Sidious own use of the ability hint that said "extend" is "planatary level" and that Nihilus had gone "beyond" that. So I'm sorry but I have to say that Kreia did only have some years to study the knowledge stored on Malachor while people like Ragnos / Sadow had decades / centuries adding the fact that she herself descripes herself as a child compared to the Ancients and specifically Ragnos as "frightening" - I doubt that she is superior in any department, including the "force drain" attack.



The point is that "more knowledge" doesn't equal victory especially not when the combatants are very close to being equals in terms of force powers - effectively lessen the chance that one of them will take another out by force use.



Meh. This is getting boring. What was "proven" is that Sadow always used his ship / amulet not that he required to do so. And given the fact that minor force users with much less actual training and a far lesser knowledge base were equal to reproduce said feats, I'm inclined to say that Sadow could do it without his "tools".



No. It simply doesn't make sense. We could also turn this entire match into a fist fight. And I like the "sporting" chance of equipping people with weapons (lightsabers) they never used before and require excessive training to put them against one master (Sidious) and one prodigy (Kun) of using said weapons. Really "sporting" chance.

Well, wouldn't Sith swords be an unfair advantage? Or do they function the same as lightsabers? I read somewhere on KMC that a Sith sword could shatter a lightsaber.

Which would hardly give them an equitable fight.

Sith swords can shatter lightsabers? Since when?

Sith Swords and sabers are pretty much the same thing. What I mean is, the ancient sith preferred the sith swords so they can feel themselves stabbing into the flash of their enemies(this is a fact I read it somewhere will get it if I can find it). Also, their swords have sith alchemy and cortosis and all that in/on them to resist lightsabers. THe only advantage they have is that they are said to swing their swords(which are heavy), as fast as jedi swing their sabers. That would definitely give them the advantage of knocking their opponents down.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Sith Swords and sabers are pretty much the same thing. What I mean is, the ancient sith preferred the sith swords so they can feel themselves stabbing into the flash of their enemies(this is a fact I read it somewhere will get it if I can find it). Also, their swords have sith alchemy and cortosis and all that in/on them to resist lightsabers. THe only advantage they have is that they are said to swing their swords(which are heavy), as fast as jedi swing their sabers. That would definitely give them the advantage of knocking their opponents down.

Ah, okay. Well, I have no problem with that. Especially when Kun and Sidious have an apparent advantage of their own.

Give 'em the swords.

They definitely can't swing their swords as fast as sabers. The ancient sith weren't that strong. I mean have you seen how big and heavy the swords look?

yes, they were said to swing them as fast as sabers. But back on topic.

Sith swords didn't have a speck of cortosis...cortosis wasn't discovered until later on by one of Exar Kun's former adept

I'm not sure about that lightsnake I am pretty sure cortosis existed even before the ancient sith of the golden age. And if it wasn't cortosis it was sith magic that could withstand a lightsaber.

Existed? sure. Discovered? No. Sith Alchemy was what they used in the creation, there was no cortosis.

I'll look that up, in the meantime find me somewhere that states that cortosis was discovered by Kun's adepts.

Evil Never Dies: The Sith dynasties

ok I only have a wikipedia source since I have nowhere else to look it up. I dont know what E.V.D is.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
yes, they were said to swing them as fast as sabers. But back on topic.

By who? Janus?

I don't know. I wasn't aware someone on this forum said it also, I just remember reading it in a source.

It's not in any of the comics, or essential guides or anything like that. I read a thread in which people stated it, but not because it was stated by a credible source but because the swords left blurs and after images. While this clearly indicates speed, I can't see how you can deduce from that that they could swng their swords as fast as lightsabers.

And can you deduce that they are slower than lightsabers, or lightsabers are faster than them?

Nevermind.

Well logic dictates otherwise, as the Ancient sith were hardly physically stronger than other species, yet their swords were much heavier than lightsabers. Yeah, I think it's pretty safe to say that they couldn't swing them as fast as lightsabers

What do you mean hardly physically stronger? They WERE physically superior to humans at the very least.. Hi Sama

I don't agree. Judging by their looks they may have been physically stronger, but not strong enough to be able to swing swords of their kind as fast as jedi can swing sabers.

Again, you see the scans, which would mean they swing them impressively fast. Whether it's faster than a saber or not is inconclusive.

I doubt it anyway. And it seems as if the sith were more interested with sith magic and alchemy, I doubt that they were good duelists.

really, because Kreia stated that her generation were like children playing with toys compared to the ancient masters, dealing with dueling/sith knowledge.

Actually she was talking about Tulak Hord, who used a lightsaber and seemed to be much more of a dueler anyway. And how really would Kreia know just how great the sith were at dueling?

because she's a historian? Same way she knew everything about Ragnos, Pall, Hord, Sadow, Kressh, etc..

The thing is, she would actually have to see them in action to determine their dueling ability.

Why? She had no problem verbally fellating Ragnos, why would she have to see things for herself? She also saw the fall of the republic in her mind, what's your point?

The thing is, she actually was able to study sith magic (such as the teachings on Malachor V and Korriban, and holocrons etc.) and likely knew of their conquests, such as Sadow making a star go nova. Through these ways, she would be able to get an accurate indication of their power. However with dueling ability, the only way she would know is threw their conquests, and seeing as she can't compare their era to her's in regards to dueling ability, it means jack.

It would kind of be like researching into the past, and finding out that Mr. X was able to defeat Mr. Y and Mr. Z in a sword battle. You would still have no idea how skilled Mr. X was, because you would have no clue as to how skilled Mr. Y or Mr. Z were. Makes sense?