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Ok, i wanted to make a thread clarifying all this.

A lot of people have recently made comments in threads about Israel committing horrible atrocities randomly over the years, including murder , systematic rape, etc.

I'd don't think any of these claims are credible in terms of government sancitoned activities, but if they did happen, I'm sure that Kachanists are responsibe.

for those who don't know, Kachanists are basically a terrorist sect of Judaism started by Rabbi Meir Kachane. They believe in Jewish dominionism and are virulently antimuslim. Groups affiliated with Kachanism include the Jewish Defense League (JDL), the Koch, and the Kachane Chai.

Over the years, Kachanists have enjoyed some degree of popularity among Jewish settlers in the West Bank but their actions have been deplorable. These have included attacks on innocent Palastinians and other Arabs, a shooting in a Mosque which killed 40 people, the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin, and repeatedly foiled plans to launch nerve gas attacks on Tel Aviv to provoke all out war with Palestine or Lebanon.
Your hardly hear about them in the mainstream media at all, but the Israeli Mossad has been combatting them for years. I would not be surprised if they were responsible for committing attrocities against arab communities in any of Israels neighbors or Israel itself (not to mention against christians and reform or secular jews).

Just wanted to point out that these guys are batshit crazy terrorists and do not represent Jews or Israel. Oh, and when Al Qaida assassintaed Meir Kachane as their first big attack, that was probably the only good thing Al Qaida has ever done or will ever do.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
A lot of people have recently made comments in threads about Israel committing horrible atrocities randomly over the years, including murder , systematic rape, etc.

Just to clarify my opinion on this matter.

I strongly condemn the United States' unilateral support for all things Israel. Much of this support comes from the religious activists in this countrys population and government. However, I don't understand the Christian view that the Jews are gods "chosen" people because it says so in the old testament, which is a direct contradiction to the christian belief that christians are gods chosen people.

That aside I do believe that the state of Israel has done a lot to contribute to the violence and political unrest in the middle east. However, they are a nation in the middle east and these tactics have been employeed there for thousands of years, so it's a matter of sink or swim.

My issue is that my country has supported one state over all others to it's own detriment. I'd say that 60 percent of the issues the fundamental Muslims have with us is our support for Israel. If Israel can survive in the middle east without the support of the US, then I think it's time they start.

And to address the topic, there are fanatics in every religion. That's why I consider mass religions a poison of the mind.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Just to clarify my opinion on this matter.

I strongly condemn the United States' unilateral support for all things Israel. Much of this support comes from the religious activists in this countrys population and government. However, I don't understand the Christian view that the Jews are gods "chosen" people because it says so in the old testament, which is a direct contradiction to the christian belief that christians are gods chosen people.

That aside I do believe that the state of Israel has done a lot to contribute to the violence and political unrest in the middle east. However, they are a nation in the middle east and these tactics have been employeed there for thousands of years, so it's a matter of sink or swim.

My issue is that my country has supported one state over all others to it's own detriment. I'd say that 60 percent of the issues the fundamental Muslims have with us is our support for Israel. If Israel can survive in the middle east without the support of the US, then I think it's time they start.

And to address the topic, there are fanatics in every religion. That's why I consider mass religions a poison of the mind.

Violence in the Middle East is primarily the result of Arab/Muslim-state hatred for Jews and Israel. The religious history of the region is debatable: the fact is, if Israel is not attacked, it does not attack. And when not defending itself, it transforms the desert into a paradise, something the Muslims have not done for all the centuries they have been in the middle east. Arabs hold the final responsibility for their quality of life, not the Jews, not the Americans.

And considering that the Arabs outnumber the Jews in the region by 100 to 1, the US's support is quite fair.

As for the fanatics: generally speaking, everyone who is not with them is an enemy. Regarding the Islamofacists specifically: now their enemies are Jews and Americans. If - IF - they ever "defeat" that demographic, next on the list (actually, already on their list) are the moderate Arab states. After that will be the rest of the world. Facism doesn't settle for a piece of the pie: it wants the whole pie.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Just to clarify my opinion on this matter.

I strongly condemn the United States' unilateral support for all things Israel. Much of this support comes from the religious activists in this countrys population and government. However, I don't understand the Christian view that the Jews are gods "chosen" people because it says so in the old testament, which is a direct contradiction to the christian belief that christians are gods chosen people.


The Christan belief is NOT that they are Gods chosen people, they are the people who follow Christ and as such will have eternal life, but, Christ himself was a Jew. and Jesus never said that the people who follow him where Gods chosen people, in fact,

God never chooses and Christan's in the New testament, unlike in the Old where he chose Moses, Abraham and David etc etc...

You could argue that Jesus chose the deciples but they where all Jewish, with the exception of Luke...

However clearly your opinion on religion is biased and you will no doubt see it aas doing more harm than good, BUT considering that your vaunted peace to all man morality and morality in general stems from religion means, you are also poisoned.

Originally posted by Mindship
Arabs hold the final responsibility for their quality of life, not the Jews, not the Americans.

From the Dumb American thread, on the standard of living in Palestine:

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Not to mention that they don't have those comforts because of the people in charge of their country. Not because of selfish, ignorant Americans.


Originally posted by Mindship
And considering that the Arabs outnumber the Jews in the region by 100 to 1, the US's support is quite fair.

So, where is our support of all the other outnumbered nations or populations in the different regions of the world? Again, when you've provided weapons and UN support (after you've shot the UN the middle finger on every other issue) I think you could kill a few muslims with a nuclear weapon. So, let them use it. Let them bomb Lebannon or Iran and let the chips fall where they may. You think US bolstering of Israel is fair, but you seem to miss the point that they will strike back first and then ask questions or negotiate later. That's how things work in the rest of the middle east, so why not Israel too?




Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
The Christan belief is NOT that they are Gods chosen people, they are the people who follow Christ and as such will have eternal life, but, Christ himself was a Jew. and Jesus never said that the people who follow him where Gods chosen people, in fact,

God never chooses and Christan's in the New testament, unlike in the Old where he chose Moses, Abraham and David etc etc...

You could argue that Jesus chose the deciples but they where all Jewish, with the exception of Luke...

However clearly your opinion on religion is biased and you will no doubt see it aas doing more harm than good, BUT considering that your vaunted peace to all man morality and morality in general stems from religion means, you are also poisoned.

You can't come at me with factual interpretations of the bible, because the people who read the bible and understand the contradictions are one thing. I don't know what country you're from, but you should spend a little more time listening to Pat Robertson, even Tom Delay, and any number of neoconservative right wing christians. They certainly DO think that the Jews are still the original chosen people of god. He just amended the rule to let the followers of Christ in too. These public figures have said they were, the CHOSEN people of god. There are no less that two dozen christian channels on my cable package...and I spend more time than I'd like to admit watching it. (Especially late at night when the REAL nuts are on)

For instance, today I saw a man dressed like Liberace hand an elderly black woman a little bottle of water, she drank it, tossed her crutches down and danced up and down the aisle. Then, across the bottom of the screen it said: CALL NOW FOR YOUR FREE VILE OF MAGIC WATER! Magic? They couldn't call it blessed or holy water? They call it magic water!?

These are not people who operate from a logical perspective. But I appreciate anything I might have learned from your knowledge of the bible I might not have picked up in my 13 years of catholic school education.

And I'm not against religion at all. I'm against any religion that tells you how to interpret your personal relationship with god, that tells you what to think and feel in matters of relationships with other humans and politics is a poision.

I never said they didn't, I said that it is not the Christain belief that they are God's chosen people, the bible, in both testiments say that the Jews are the people of God, and that is why extreme Right wing Christines support the Jews, I never said they didn't...lol

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
I never said they didn't, I said that it is not the Christain belief that they are God's chosen people, the bible, in both testiments say that the Jews are the people of God, and that is why extreme Right wing Christines support the Jews, I never said they didn't...lol

And I didn't argue that you argued that they aren't supported by American christians. My point is that it's easy for rational people to read the bible and realize that jews and christians are both people of the same god. But the new and old testament contradict each other. Hell, the new testament contradicts itself many times.

It's amazing how few christians actually read and interpret the bible..opting out for the angle provided them by their church leaders.

Which is the way the Church likes it, but yes Eye for an Eye one day, love the neigbour the next, amazing...ofcourse, God himself is a very hypocritical character, but then, he's very much, do as I say, not what I do...

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
1. So, where is our support of all the other outnumbered nations or populations in the different regions of the world?

2. Again, when you've provided weapons and UN support (after you've shot the UN the middle finger on every other issue) I think you could kill a few muslims with a nuclear weapon. So, let them use it. Let them bomb Lebannon or Iran and let the chips fall where they may.

3. You think US bolstering of Israel is fair, but you seem to miss the point that they will strike back first and then ask questions or negotiate later. That's how things work in the rest of the middle east, so why not Israel too?

1. It would be easier to respond to specifics than a generality. Which other countries? How are they outnumbered and by whom? Also by enemies swearing to their god to destroy them (as well as us)? That aside, Israel shares many of our democratic values; it is the country most like us in that part of the world. At the very least, it is a strategic military and political ally. Plus, the reality of Israel has strong religious/biblical connections to Americans.
And if we're gonna w/draw support from Israel, then why not from all the countries we Do give support to? And how well would that isolationist policy work in a global-village world? America is Not That much of a superpower to go it alone.

2. Nukes are crossing the line. Then we truly unleash destruction on a level that will likely cast all reason, all restraint out the window. Plus, the country that uses them (especially first!) will very much lose the moral high ground.

3. Israel has always sought diplomacy as a first course of action. Israel strikes back when hit first. This makes Israel different from the rest of the middle east, that and the reasons stated in #1 above.

Oh, by the way, I think it is very wrong to say that Kachanists are not real Jews, They are they just have different views from other jews, this doesn't mean they are not jewish.

It's like, when people say that Terrorists involved in 9/11 are not muslims, they are,

and it doesn't help matters when rather than facing the problem people try to wash their hands of those who cause problems...

Originally posted by Mindship
1. It would be easier to respond to specifics than a generality. Which other countries? How are they outnumbered and by whom? Also by enemies swearing to their god to destroy them (as well as us)? That aside, Israel shares many of our democratic values; it is the country most like us in that part of the world. At the very least, it is a strategic military and political ally. Plus, the reality of Israel has strong religious/biblical connections to Americans.
And if we're gonna w/draw support from Israel, then why not from all the countries we Do give support to? And how well would that isolationist policy work in a global-village world? America is Not That much of a superpower to go it alone.

2. Nukes are crossing the line. Then we truly unleash destruction on a level that will likely cast all reason, all restraint out the window. Plus, the country that uses them (especially first!) will very much lose the moral high ground.

3. Israel has always sought diplomacy as a first course of action. Israel strikes back when hit first. This makes Israel different from the rest of the middle east, that and the reasons stated in #1 above.

Oh, yawn. I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I'm not trying to hijack this thread. Nor am I trying to justify my views on Israel or the United States' stance on it. I believe the way I do, and no amount of debate is going to change that. If the atrocities in Darfur were happening in the middle east against Israelites WW3 would have broken out already. There is also plenty of evidence of over kill on the part of Israel. I understand that Hezbollah takes cowardly action against Israel, like bombing non-military establishments. But, for all their high and mighty stance, Israel is doing exactly the same...with missles and massing troops on the border. Sure, the enemy, Hezbollah, looks just like any other Lebonnese citizen. That doesn't make bombing residential areas with missles right.

And you mention that Israel shares a lot of the goals and freedom-loving disposition of the United States. And look at what we've done. If our brand of spreading freedom is anything to judge by, it's no wonder 99 percent of the middle east hates Israel. If all this unrest in the middle east is a sign of the end times, then that can only be a good thing for christianity.

They aren't Jews in any sense, they violate all the fundamentals of Judaism and are willing to commit mass murder of Jews in order to implicate Muslims.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
They aren't Jews in any sense, they violate all the fundamentals of Judaism and are willing to commit mass murder of Jews in order to implicate Muslims.

God did that didn't he,

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
I believe the way I do, and no amount of debate is going to change that.
That's cool.

And you mention that Israel shares a lot of the goals and freedom-loving disposition of the United States. And look at what we've done. If our brand of spreading freedom is anything to judge by, it's no wonder 99 percent of the middle east hates Israel.
We are far from perfect, but overall, we're still the best game in town. And they hate because they choose to hate.
Regardless, I respect your choice to believe as you do.

Originally posted by Mindship
That's cool.

I'm pretty open-minded about a lot of things. But, this case isn't one of them. From what I've seen, Israel is a direct cause for much of the middle eastern muslim nations' animosity towards us.


Originally posted by Mindship
We are far from perfect, but overall, we're still the best game in town. And they hate because they choose to hate.
Regardless, I respect your choice to believe as you do.

Do you live in Israel, or are you referring to the US?

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
I'm pretty open-minded about a lot of things.
I know. I've read other posts of yours in other threads.


Do you live in Israel, or are you referring to the US?
I live in New York City

As for "best game," basically democracy. I'm sure you're familiar with Churchill's statement.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
And you mention that Israel shares a lot of the goals and freedom-loving disposition of the United States. And look at what we've done. If our brand of spreading freedom is anything to judge by, it's no wonder 99 percent of the middle east hates Israel. If all this unrest in the middle east is a sign of the end times, then that can only be a good thing for christianity.

http://www.bettybowers.com/graphics/peaceplan1.jpghttp://www.bettybowers.com/graphics/peaceplan2.jpg

Ok, Kachanists are bad guys and terrorists,
but many inocent people in palestine die everyday by the hands of Israel
army(including children and women), and that is not better than attacks
of arabs in respone.

'cuz jews have been dispersed 2 times in diaspora 2,000 years ago and held in bondage. Common sense sez their new owners bred with fertile fecund healthy jewish females, just like slave owners bred with their female african slaves in North, Central, South America and modern matrilineal mitochondrial dna testing can screen for this interbreeding. My point is, folk who don't think they are a jew are and folk who think they are a jew may not be. To say all the turmoil is a question of jew versus arab really miss the ultimate point.
Revelations mentions 144,000 born again jews will arrive in Israel during the time Antichrist is in power during the tribulation period. Who are these 144,000 jews you may ask, they are whoever Jesus sez they are, their job is to convert folk living in Isreal who may or not be real jews, only God knows who they are.
My next, what is the point-for history to unfold to get to Armageddon things have to be they way they are. For those trying to sneak out the backdoor by way of Rapture are in for a big surprise 'cuz everyone alive at the time of Armageddon will be separated like wheat from chaff, sheep from goats. So for folks who write these e-mail and want to split ultra fine hairs and tell God what to do. well, I sure don't want to be in your shoes when its your turn to be judged.
Question, of is Rabbi Kahane a jew or not is not for us to decide, but to reflect on his legacy...did Kahane bring folk closer to God's bosom. Does slaughtering civilians in Lebanon really mean anything in a religiously significant way. I see it as God bringing home who He wants and send to hell the folk He wants to send. My assessment may sound cold-hearted and sanguine, but I go by the 1st Commandment. I don't worship America first, Israel first, I only worship Jesus.
Here in Europe, folk be incredibly brainwashed with socialistic ways of thinking. Religion only gets lip service here. My point you may ask- why are we here on the planet? to keep coca cola; Mc Donalds and Wal-Wart in existence? If yer a hide bound materialist only concerned with dinosaurs in the bible, yer in a world of hurt.
Some writers sort of get the overall jist of things but can't resist putting their cutsey 1-up-manship spin on things to tag them with their personal stamp of approval. Hope that makes points for ya when ya stand before Jesus to be judged for eternity.

Originally posted by jake abf
Common sense

Originally posted by jake abf
Revelations

Originally posted by jake abf
Antichrist

Originally posted by jake abf
the tribulation period.

Originally posted by jake abf
they are whoever Jesus sez they are,

Originally posted by jake abf
Armageddon

Originally posted by jake abf
Rapture

Originally posted by jake abf
God's bosom.

Originally posted by jake abf
dinosaurs in the bible

Originally posted by jake abf
judged for eternity.

One of these things is not like the others, not like the others, not like the others