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All right for those who have been in the big debate on the other thread I am going to solve it using an essay.

First using all the theories and posting them here so that you people actually read them instead of getting into another argument.


1) The compass theory (IF you havent read it go back and read it on the other threads)
2) The hat theory (See number 9 too)
3) The fact that Jack is always there to rescue Liz but Will is not
4) When she clings to his leg at the end
5) The sexual conversations (Like curiosity and when he says he can preform a marriage on the boat)
6) The curiosity scene when Jack pulls away because of the black spot... everyone KNOWS that Jack wouldnt have pulled away if he didnt see it like we said go back and read more on this)
7) How Jack is always trying to get rid of Will, IE: When he knocks him out with the paddle ,
8) If you watch any of the Jack and Liz music videos on Youtube you will see how much of a jelous look Jack has when he watches Will kiss Liz
9) Liz's outfit as a pirate looks a lot like Jack's, normally people dress as who they want to be like. And when she has the same hat as Jacks it is the missing piece of Jack's costume that he needs and when he sees her for the first time she is wearing it.
10) Will sees Liz before the wedding- Bad luck (More is explained by others in the other thread)
11) Liz was facinated by pirates since she was a child, why else is she with Will in the beginning? Because she thought he was a pirate. Jack is a REAL pirate and is always rescuing her but Will is never there to save her.
12) Norrington and Dalma can obviously tell in many scenes that Liz really wants to be with Jack but is not admiting it (See other threads for the pictures posted)
13) The kiss before she leaves Jack chained to the boat... why else does she leave him there except the fact she is an Honorable lady and doesnt want to admit to herself that she has feelings for him even though she is with Will. She left him there as a sacrifice to save the others yes, but she also did it because she doesnt want to admit her true feelings for him and what would have happened if she let him go with them? This way she has no other choice but to stay with Will.

There are probably more but I put down as many as I remembered.

Here is a part of my essay explaining why Film Studies students think this way deeper into films then most people do:

IF you havent seen Sunset Boulevard and wish to see it do not read this, But if you dont give a crap then go ahead lol.

*****

Norma desperately tries to stop Joe from leaving. When she does this it proves how much she wants to be with a part of society. She needs Joe to be there for her and to run her errands. She would probably have him write more with her and control him the rest of his life. Norma kills Joe because she wanted to stop him, and she did not want anyone else to have him.

IE: Liz leaves Jack chained to the boat because she doesnt want to admit who she really is JACK: "Pirate" And that she really has feelings for him.

This is how film Study students examine films. SO this is why a large amount of people see the deeper meaning behind Jack and Liz, end of story lol.

i agree

this is random but does anyone know where i can find like the link to youtube or something that shows wen there at the beach and liz runs and kisses will and like jack looks kinda jealous.

I agree with everything you said except the last...I think thats a pretty debatable one.

but it is an interesting way to look at it and it makes alot of sense.

It really did seem as if she was trying to pretend she was doing it for an honorable cause .. but then there is a little glimpse of what she really wants. Where she leans in as if to kiss him again and then says something that sounds more like a pirate "I'm not sorry"

.. If that whole betrayal of hers was just another burst of denial it would make alot of sense with the rest of the movie. which is every time she gets close to jack..theres the denial..and then the glimpse of her true feelings..happenes every time between the two.

That could explain that hateful look..its like kiss..then her trying to tell him with such an angry face "not a chance" trying to prove to herself and him that the kiss meant nothing....but then we see her slip again before the scene ends. She did that EVERY time jack got close to her.

Edited that post of mine^^^

Originally posted by brokenxxheart14
this is random but does anyone know where i can find like the link to youtube or something that shows wen there at the beach and liz runs and kisses will and like jack looks kinda jealous.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj32JPpN5ns

Towards the time of 4:30 she runs to Will and...yeah.But the whole thing is pretty good.All about Jack and Lizzie.

I definetly agree with you Sweet Kat - I have said that before that I think she chains him there because she is scared of what she feels for him and this way she doens't have to hurt Will. That look she gives Jack is almost as if she's saying - this is for all the times you have lied to me and tricked me - I think it's all about her. But then she looks like she's about to kiss him again because she just can't resist him, "I'm not sorry" - but he's smiling and looking so cocky even after she has outfoxed him because she has just proven everything he has ever told her "you will come over to my side. you want to know why? one word, Curiosity. You won't to do what you want to do, because you want to..One day you will give into a selfish impulse, you won't be able to resist" that's his argument to her about why they are alike -why they could possibly be a couple (you and I, I-you, us) - go watch curiosity scene on Youtube.com - why she is a pirate like him - that's why he growls at her, "PIRATE". Check-mate.

I don't know about you all, but I cannot wait to see what will Happen in Pirates 3 when jack and Liz see other again after that last scene - I think it's going to be tension filled and full of sparks. Or at least I hope so......it would make no sense if it's not.

Originally posted by lovethemtigers
I definetly agree with you Sweet Kat - I have said that before that I think she chains him there because she is scared of what she feels for him and this way she doens't have to hurt Will. That look she gives Jack is almost as if she's saying - this is for all the times you have lied to me and tricked me - I think it's all about her. But then she looks like she's about to kiss him again because she just can't resist him, "I'm not sorry" - but he's smiling and looking so cocky even after she has outfoxed him because she has just proven everything he has ever told her "you will come over to my side. you want to know why? one word, Curiosity. You won't to do what you want to do, because you want to..One day you will give into a selfish impulse, you won't be able to resist" that's his argument to her about why they are alike -why they could possibly be a couple (you and I, I-you, us) - go watch curiosity scene on Youtube.com - why she is a pirate like him - that's why he growls at her, "PIRATE". Check-mate.


I honestly dont think its becuase she feels a hatred towards him If she felt a hatred towards him then in no way would she be falling for him throughout the movie...its just a denial of her feelings..she can see that they are developing more and she wants to put an end to it before it comes out in the open. I honestly DONT think that she hates himfor all the times he got her in trouble..she might be annoyed by the fact he is getting under her skin..she would probably see that as his fault.

Actually..that last moment where he comes back for her and she hugs his leg probably meant so much to her and at that point she realises "SHIT I cant let this continue, I have to cut him off or who knows what I might do.."

I think that look is not of hatred..it is her saying "not a chance jack the kiss means nothing" but then you clearly see her slip and go to kiss him again...something she does repeatedly throughout the movie...its: get close then "not a chance Jack" then a slip..then denial again...its like a cycle..

eh I thought you were on our side lovely one lol

Originally posted by LovelyOne
I honestly dont think its becuase she feels a hatred towards him If she felt a hatred towards him then in no way would she be falling for him throughout the movie...its just a denial of her feelings..she can see that they are developing more and she wants to put an end to it before it comes out in the open. I honestly DONT think that she hates himfor all the times he got her in trouble..she might be annoyed by the fact he is getting under her skin..she would probably see that as his fault.

Actually..that last moment where he comes back for her and she hugs his leg probably meant so much to her and at that point she realises "SHIT I cant let this continue, I have to cut him off or who knows what I might do.."

I think that look is not of hatred..it is her saying "not a chance jack the kiss means nothing" but then you clearly see her slip and go to kiss him again...something she does repeatedly throughout the movie...its get close then"not a chance Jack" then a slip..then denial again...its like a cycle..

Yeah I get what you are saying. I didn't mean that she hated him...it's more like you said -it's almost like she's mostly frustrated with herself for having these feelings for him. The scene where she hugs his leg is a symbolism of how much she has come to depend on him - Jack is her hero. (refer to Sweet Kat's - Jack is always there to rescue her, never Will. Without Jack, Will would never have saved Liz from Barboorsa)Yeah maybe she does give him that look to say "although I kissed you it doesn't mean anything" - but it really does. Everyone who agrees that she is in love with Jack knows what we are trying to say here - she loves him - but she doesn't want to admit it, she fights it - and chaining him to the ship is her desperate, impulsive move to prove to herself and him that she is not hooked on him. That's why she is crying so much in the end - she did something so horrible because of her intense desire for Jack - now she has done something stupid all because she is afraid of what she feels for him - Oh I'm going on and on too much, sorry.

Originally posted by sweet_kat22
eh I thought you were on our side lovely one lol

She is I think what Lovely One means - it's Liz trying desperately to hide what she secretly desires - it's that whole forbidden love thing, ya know.

Originally posted by lovethemtigers
Yeah I get what you are saying. I didn't mean that she hated him...it's more like you said -it's almost like she's mostly frustrated with herself for having these feelings for him. The scene where she hugs his leg is a symbolism of how much she has come to depend on him - Jack is her hero. (refer to Sweet Kat's - Jack is always there to rescue her, never Will. Without Jack, Will would never have saved Liz from Barboorsa)Yeah maybe she does give him that look to say "although I kissed you it doesn't mean anything" - but it really does. Everyone who agrees that she is in love with Jack knows what we are trying to say here - she loves him - but she doesn't want to admit it, she fights it - and chaining him to the ship is her desperate, impulsive move to prove to herself and him that she is not hooked on him. That's why she is crying so much in the end - she did something so horrible because of her intense desire for Jack - now she has done something stupid all because she is afraid of what she feels for him - Oh I'm going on and on too much, sorry.

No no no you totally make 100% sense. And the fact she did that for herself was the selfish act. I think I was wrong about the whole knowing he could escape thing.It was more about her trying to prove a point to herself..thus doing it for selfish reasons Or maybe she did know they could escape but her wanting to put a stop to the whole thing between them overruled that possibility..

I didnt actually notice it before.. I didnt pick up on it until you and sweetkat brought more attention t it thanks

Jack saw right through her though lol.

^^ Yea, I think that's what she means.....

Originally posted by LovelyOne
its like a cycle.

Yes......a vicious one.....even the TRAILORS for POTC 3 are going to be a SUPER big deal to us LOL.....again I say.......at least we don't have to wait long for those..........being on the DVD for 2 and all......

Even the kiss could have been that its like her telling herself: "yes I wanted to try it" then "not a chance means nothing" then "ohh I want it again" then "no i'm leaving!" then "damn I want him back"..

friggin up and down like a yo yo man..

^^ exactly, all that is going to be resolved in the next movie..........

YAY ^^^^ I hope it turns out like star wars lol.

Sweetkat and katelovespirate you just gave me a whole new level of understanding with that last scene. For some reason it was just flying right past my head.

Its like at the end Jack just satisfied her again by saying pirate and she tried to make it look like it didn't. He keeps getting under her skin and she hates herself for allowing him to get to her like that..

Yep, this is why I made this post to prove why we think the way we do about Jack and Liz. And everything we pointed out is true behind the creation of film. Directors like to hide bits and pieces that only those who have been through film studies will notice. No one really understands the deep meaning of films until they learn more about them.

Originally posted by LovelyOne
Even the kiss could have been that its like her telling herself: "yes I wanted to try it" then "not a chance means nothing" then "ohh I want it again" then "no i'm leaving!" then "damn I want him back"..

friggin up and down like a yo yo man..

OMG - I've just had a new insight based on all these new discussions. I just got through watching the Kiss - LIz's last words to Jack "this is the only way, don't you see." The way they are looking into each other eyes. It's her way of telling him although they both want each other they can never be together because of Will - with you out of the picture neither one of us has to hurt Will - so I'm sacrificing you to the Kraken - because it is after you anyways and Davy Jones will not give up trying to collect his debt - Jack's Soul.

Originally posted by LovelyOne
Even the kiss could have been that its like her telling herself: "yes I wanted to try it" then "not a chance means nothing" then "ohh I want it again" then "no i'm leaving!" then "damn I want him back"..

friggin up and down like a yo yo man..

It's like Jack is a Drug for her - she knows she shouldn't want him, but she does. It's so damn sexy the whole theory.....Forbidden Love.
To break the "bad" habit - she will leave him to die.

^^ Yea.......she wants him SOOO BAD........but she knows she shouldn't......but she can't help herself.......and she's turning into a pirate....something they both like.....

Originally posted by lovethemtigers
It's like Jack is a Drug for her - she knows she shouldn't want him, but she does. It's so damn sexy the whole theory.....Forbidden Love.
To break the "bad" habit - she will leave him to die.

OMG I know! Its so SOOOO interesting to watch..so much more that Liz will...its so forbidden which makes it all the more tempting to her. She had a taste of the forbidden fruit (selfish act), became dirty and was kicked out of the garden of Eden forever.. ( honorable life to pirate, no turning back now) trying to quote the bible..

and yeh the post above is a good insight too

Originally posted by lovethemtigers
OMG - I've just had a new insight based on all these new discussions. I just got through watching the Kiss - LIz's last words to Jack "this is the only way, don't you see." The way they are looking into each other eyes. It's her way of telling him although they both want each other they can never be together because of Will - with you out of the picture neither one of us has to hurt Will - so I'm sacrificing you to the Kraken - because it is after you anyways and Davy Jones will not give up trying to collect his debt - Jack's Soul.

Wow, this is really good insite on this. Great job glad you came up with this because now I know why she said all that at the end This is why she chained him because she knew they couldnt be together.

IE: Back to my sunset boulevard comparrison with my essay, this is how us Film studies students know these things.

She chained him up to stop the possibility though didn't she?....if she definitely knew that they could never be together then she wouldn't have felt the need to get rid of the temptation in the first place ..She obviously feels as if she's not strong enough to fight it..so she wants to just take the easy way out and get rid of the possibility before she allowes her self to accept it. Which was the selfish act...the pirates way out of things. Honorable people would try to be brave and fight it..but the pirate takes the easy way out. which is what she did.

I think the "this is the only way dont you see" was liz trying to convince him and herself that it was the only way to get out of it when it really wasn't She could have been brave and let him try and escape too., and the "I'm not sorry" was her trying to convince herself yet again that what she feels for jack is not real..right after she nearly kisses him again she says that..Jack can see that her actions in the scene speak louder than her words..She's saying she means one thing..but her facial expressions and the very act she just committed speaks louder. Its showing him that She really does want him and that she IS a pirate..but she is trying very feebly to fight it with words. Thats why he's smiling..and thats why he basically called her pirate..he can see through you Liz.

LOL^^ I agree......................

^^ thanks

sweet_kat..her knowing that there isn't a chance with him cant be right ..She's in so much denial over what her heart really wants that she felt she had to MAKE there be no chance after she got that big wakeup call (when he came back).. If she knew in her heart that they could never be together then she wouldn't even bother chaining him up....there would be no need.

You can tell that her attempt to "erase the problem" didnt make her feelings for him go away.. ..she still wanted him thats why she was crying..

that whole scene is just so full of emotion. I definetly think she chains him to avoid temptation in the future. Cuz you are right. She cannot resist Jack....He's a drug -he's everything Will's not - her "sexual" pull is toward Jack and that's what frightens her.

Even in the end, honorable Will is asking Elizabeth would you be willing to bring him back if we could - even after having witnessed the kiss. At this point he doesn't know that she chained Jack to the ship. You would think he would be angry and be like "I don't care if that bastard rots in Hell" especially since Jack is the one who sent him to visit Davy Jones' ship. But no, poor old Will is still being honorable.

Even though we know Jack sent Will to the Flying Dutchman - which is really very selfish of him, it is the very thing that makes Jack so sexy, so edgy. Even when we know he's lying through all his gold teeth to Elizabeth (or not actually lying, just not telling the whole truth), we are still like OMG this man is soooo irresistable.

Another note on the Norrington thing - I love the way they added that element to the story. You know he's watching them cuz he's listening to
the whole persuade me conversation when they mention the letters of pardon...That's why he notices Elizabeth is all goo-goo and smiling. He knows she is thinking about Jack - I love that whole exchange. IT's so obvious that Norrington can see right through her and he's amuzed that she cannot realize that her undieing faith in Jack is a sure sign that she really wants him....I love the beach scene when the compass points to Jack and she throws a little tantrum and throws the compass down and says that it doesnt work and it definetly doesn't show what you want most (but we know it does), the look on Norrington's face is priceless, cuz he knows the compass pointed at Jack and he knows she is still not facing the fact that she wants Jack.

Ok I understand now I guess

You guess LOL.....

Originally posted by lovethemtigers
that whole scene is just so full of emotion. I definetly think she chains him to avoid temptation in the future. Cuz you are right. She cannot resist Jack....He's a drug -he's everything Will's not - her "sexual" pull is toward Jack and that's what frightens her.

Its like when he was finally gone..she was having withdrawl symptoms..he made her feel so alive..and now he's gone. thanks to HER..its going to be interesting to watch her try and go cold turkey in the next movie.



To me there is something very..deceiving about Will's constant good nature...Its like no one can be that perfect all the time..you have to crack at some point..Liz already has *waits for Will to crack* possibly in the 3rd movie.



LOL although He keeps lying to Liz. I still dont buy the fact that she is really angry at him for doing it After All she keeps lying to herself and everyone around her throughout the entire movie lol...its like another thing they have in common. You know she just admires him so much, lies and all..he is the epitome of all pirates to her. He's a lovable scamp. He's a pirate but he's also a good man..and thats what makes him different to her.

Also Back to will and Jack..you can see that the way he behaves around Will in this one bares all the trademarks of someone who is jealous. He may not realise/admit it but he is jealous of Will for having Liz. Its obvious..Smacking Will round the head...repeatedly trying to get rid of him. Jack wants to be what Liz wants of him..which is what she finds attractive in Will.. he proved to Liz that he did have the goodness in him at the end. This made him all the more suited to Liz's needs (she wants someone who is good..but she also wants to be a pirate=not Will) and I believe this to be the reason for her to "try and erase" the "problem" at the end because that moment where he came back was the one moment where Liz realised that she can get everything she wants from a man in Jack it confirmed it for her...but she still doesn't want to accept it.



LOL i KNOW!! I love it!! look:
http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/6847/potc239du1.jpg

hey guys, im new at this whole thing but i read a couple of your threads, but they're hard to keep up lol. anyways i agree with you guys 100%. jack and elizabeth will end up together hopefully. there's a lot of clues that point to it. i never even realized them until you guys pointed them out. except ive only seen it once (the day it came out) because my family thinks its a waste of money to see it again. pshh w/e i wanna see it again!! lol. but you guys are good at this stuff. theres alot of good points.

also, where can i read that hat theroy?? im curious now as to what its about

Originally posted by random21
hey guys, im new at this whole thing but i read a couple of your threads, but they're hard to keep up lol. anyways i agree with you guys 100%. jack and elizabeth will end up together hopefully. there's a lot of clues that point to it. i never even realized them until you guys pointed them out. except ive only seen it once (the day it came out) because my family thinks its a waste of money to see it again. pshh w/e i wanna see it again!! lol. but you guys are good at this stuff. theres alot of good points.

also, where can i read that hat theroy?? im curious now as to what its about

Hello heres my hat theory:

http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/1663/potc2trailer80wy9.jpg

The loss of his hat is significant..and the fact Liz keeps wearing a similar one to him from the moment he first sees her is also significant..her character didn't need that particular hat at all so it could symbolise something else. the hat stands out when she wears it..its meant to catch the audiences eye. In my opinion its no coincidence that Jack's character is missing his hat throughout the movie and Liz's charcter is basically wearing it.its like a puzzle piece thats meant to fit together.

So basically to start with he's loses his beloved hat and it makes him feel incomplete. He wants it back to make him feel complete

The part in Tortuga where he didn't feel right trying on all the hats has a double meaning. Its also the point in the movie where his character is in a great state of confusion over what the compass is telling him he wants..he thinks its saying lots of different things (when its actually pointing to liz) He leaves with no hat..he didn't find the right one.

Then hello hello... Liz turning up looking like him but wearing a hat similar to his missing one symbolises that SHE is the missing part of him.

notice he stops worring about the compass not showing him what he wants, Liz just came and resembled the end to all his troubles, meaning she takes charge of the compass. but she's ALSO the thing he wants..the missing part. double meanings

At the end after he gets what he wants from Liz strangley enough his hat comes back symbolises that he's finally found the missing part of himeslf "coincidently" when LIZ just came down to his level..his equal.

And before you say "the hat was to hide from the men on the ship", thats not true..she ditches that hat which is made of straw and all of a sudden with no explanation she sports one that looks exactly like Jack's missing one. She has it on as as soon as she meets him and never removes it.

Jacks hat resembles a huge part of his character..its missing..so part of him is missing. Liz turns up looking just like him but wearing his beloved hat..Liz is the missing part of him. Its there throughout th entire movie..she never takes it off until the end..just before Jack gets his back

Is everyone here a film studies major? It certainly seems like it...hehe Good to see that all the film majors are putting their education to good use by over-analyzing our favorite pirate/(pirate) princess.

I have to say, though, LovelyOne's deconstruction of the final kiss scene as a metaphor for sex, complete with the yonic/orgasm imagery, made me laugh. As a humble English/comp lit major, I know what it is to have to over-analyze everything for phallic symbols, climax-driven patterns and sexual imagery in landscape-- and the moment I saw that Kraken's "mouth" and what it spit out, I only thought of one thing. hahahah. I dunno what that says about our higher education system... but nice to know that I'm not the only one strangely seeing all these "clues" in films.

Or who knows, maybe school is frying our brains

Originally posted by vegaofthelyre
Is everyone here a film studies major? It certainly seems like it...hehe Good to see that all the film majors are putting their education to good use by over-analyzing our favorite pirate/(pirate) princess.

I have to say, though, LovelyOne's deconstruction of the final kiss scene as a metaphor for sex, complete with the yonic/orgasm imagery, made me laugh. As a humble English/comp lit major, I know what it is to have to over-analyze everything for phallic symbols, climax-driven patterns and sexual imagery in landscape-- and the moment I saw that Kraken's "mouth" and what it spit out, I only thought of one thing. hahahah. I dunno what that says about our higher education system... but nice to know that I'm not the only one strangely seeing all these "clues" in films.

Or who knows, maybe school is frying our brains

LMFAO! it was Disney's way of sneaking a sex scene into a PG13 movie

Its just the fact that its spits out the hat..which means Liz in the movie... that what made me think of that theory

I used to hate having to talk for ages over sexual meanings in movies...and symbolisms..my GOD

^^ Ha, Yea........I agree with the hat theory.......and I do agree it was Disney's way of sneaking a sex scene in a PG-13 movie LOL....
We'll probably find out the rating for the next movie on the trailors on the 2nd movie's DVD.....but if they do have a "real" sex scene in the next movie....it will def. be the classic fade in fade out LOL.

thanks

whoa. that makes sense. and you know the hat was important to him because he makes several comments about it in the first movie like when he threatens elizabeth hes like "Commodore Norrington, my effects, please. And my hat. Commodore." so yeah its important to him and so is elizabeth. sry to change subjects.

anyways i liked how they added how norrington and tia, i think her name is, know that elizabeth wants jack. its pretty funny

haha and im not a flim study person. im only gunna be a freshman =P but i see the clues when you guys point them out.

^^ LOL!!

LOL also Beckett seems to see it too, when she gets overly defensive after he mentions that its Jack she's looking for. she's like "NO WILL NOT JACK!"

and yeh blackpearl..it will be the classic fade out and fade in to naked under covers kinda thing if its disney..

Originally posted by lovethemtigers
that whole scene is just so full of emotion. I definetly think she chains him to avoid temptation in the future. Cuz you are right. She cannot resist Jack....He's a drug -he's everything Will's not - her "sexual" pull is toward Jack and that's what frightens her.

Even in the end, honorable Will is asking Elizabeth would you be willing to bring him back if we could - even after having witnessed the kiss. At this point he doesn't know that she chained Jack to the ship. You would think he would be angry and be like "I don't care if that bastard rots in Hell" especially since Jack is the one who sent him to visit Davy Jones' ship. But no, poor old Will is still being honorable.

Even though we know Jack sent Will to the Flying Dutchman - which is really very selfish of him, it is the very thing that makes Jack so sexy, so edgy. Even when we know he's lying through all his gold teeth to Elizabeth (or not actually lying, just not telling the whole truth), we are still like OMG this man is soooo irresistable.

Another note on the Norrington thing - I love the way they added that element to the story. You know he's watching them cuz he's listening to
the whole persuade me conversation when they mention the letters of pardon...That's why he notices Elizabeth is all goo-goo and smiling. He knows she is thinking about Jack - I love that whole exchange. IT's so obvious that Norrington can see right through her and he's amuzed that she cannot realize that her undieing faith in Jack is a sure sign that she really wants him....I love the beach scene when the compass points to Jack and she throws a little tantrum and throws the compass down and says that it doesnt work and it definetly doesn't show what you want most (but we know it does), the look on Norrington's face is priceless, cuz he knows the compass pointed at Jack and he knows she is still not facing the fact that she wants Jack.

I agree with 100% of this. YAY!

I think we should get a Liz/Will swordfight in the next one. Or even a Liz/Jack/Will swordfight or something. that would be HOTT>

I do think Jack really wants Liz. I think a precarious lifestyle is what he has always wanted, but there is a part of the human heart that wants to be known and loved, ya know? I can imagine Jack getting lonely sometimes, not the way other people do, but in his own way. But for him, he doesnt want someone clingy or needy-- he wants someone who is self-reliant, devious, mysterious, and attractive. AKA: Liz.

PS i wonder how many more threads we can start for this topic.. hehehe

Here's something I gotta ask. You know when Jack is sitting in his cabin and he has a map in front of him. The compass points somewhere and he looks at the map and is like "NO!" then got up to get the rum.. was it pointing to port Royal there on the map?

.thats where Liz' current location was when he was looking at it I think. But I didnt get a close look to where the compass was pointing on the map.

Anyone know?

Originally posted by LovelyOne
LOL also Beckett seems to see it too, when she gets overly defensive after he mentions that its Jack she's looking for. she's like "NO WILL NOT JACK!"

and yeh blackpearl..it will be the classic fade out and fade in to naked under covers kinda thing if its disney..


Yeah the classics.... love it.
I dont know though. How could they work that in? I dont think they will. They have crossed lines, but i think that is almost cliche. I can see them doing something else wierd- like having them get intimate in another way---- more island sleepover conversations--- etc.... i dont know. as long as they get to stare into each other's eyes, have a kiss or two, and sail away together, i will be fine....

Maybe they will have an argument..and then..LOL

Look at this pic is it me or does Liz's/Will's body language here show us that she's kinda pulling away but is being held into a kiss that she might not "really" want? also it kinda shows that Will is in control of her..its HIM kissing her and not the other way around.

where as with Jack she was all for it and in control

symbolizes what each man is going to mean for her later..Will= Restriction..control

Jack: lets her be in control. Freedom.

http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/9262/potc290xn8.jpg

IDK that pic is hott lol

about the compass, i need to watch it again! that is a good point!

You know what I love about that "Persuade Me" scene?

Jack looks at the Letters from Beckett and says scornfully, "As if I could be bought for such a low price".... but takes them anyway!! hahahaha I dont' know why but that's just such a crack-up to me. Such a Jack Sparrow moment.....

HMM i just realized something else. Jack asks Liz how she got the letters and she says it was "Persuasion", indicating that she pretty much coerced or used force to get them out of Beckett. Jack comments that "Will strikes a deal with these and upholds it with honour, yet you're standing here with the prize"-- suggesting that she is becoming piratey and using "unfriendly persuasion" to get what she wants while Will is still the boring, honourable Will. And then Jack starts tempting her to continue using even more morally questionable methods of "persuasion" to get what she wants out of him, saying "Persuade Me" HMMMMMM. When you really think about it, this film is just laden with subtext for Lizzie becoming a full-fledged pirate bride for Jack. hahaha

YES!!!
AND its funny how Jack asks whether the persuasion was friendly or not--- as though, he wants to know if Jack slept with him for the letters.... like, almost he is jealous....

LOL i know^^ and katelovespirate did you mean LIZ slept with him? and yeh it was a twang of jealousy...

The way she looks when Jack mentions that about her having the letters in a dishonest way whilst Will set off with honor is so funny, she's like "well I never!"

and its so true..Will goes and does the honorable thing ALWAYS.

and it's really funny how he takes them anyway..

something else makes me laugh about that after she says to jack "yes beckett did mention something about a chest" jack turns and looks at her right in the face..she sort of flinches

That whole "Will told you I know how to handle a sword?" then the "like I said....PERSUADE ME" thats SOOOO hot! and the way she ..doesn't know what to do or how to respond and just storms off makes me crack up.

then smiles bless her

SERIOUSLY SO HOTT> that whole scene is brilliant.
AND after the Jack-persuasion-jealous of HOW liz persuaded him moment, i love how both Jack and Gibbs see the fact that Will was working for the EITC as more offensive than anything piraty they do...

You mean this scene.
Persuade Me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ibs1ox65DrQ

Originally posted by LovelyOne

where as with Jack she was all for it and in control

symbolizes what each man is going to mean for her later..Will= Restriction..control

Jack: lets her be in control. Freedom.


So true..............

Thanks^^

The EITC resemble the empire in the starwars films............and Will was working for them..they are not goodies in the movie..although to Will they probably are...which is giving me flashbacks of anikin in star wars deciding to turn to evil and work with the empire..

hahaha SO TRUE. oh geee- and you remember, Anikin only did that in order to save Padme. Will only did it to save Lizzie. But who knows if that will continue????

I think one of the reasons some people still have a hard time seeing the Liz/Jack paring is becuase the evidence for them is all really subtle and confusing (playful banter, metaphors, compasses, attraction, etc) while the evidence for her and Will is pretty obvious (they are engaged). But i dont think the fact that the evidence for Liz and Jack is subtle should make it less important...

Please, Ted and Terry, give us more of this kind of delicious dialogue!
Don't let us down.. I'm really looking forward to the scene when Liz and Jack meet again in the 3rd movie. AWKWARD.

Elizabeth: hello, remember me, I'm the one who sent you to to your violent and premature death-- but not before I tricked you with the hottest kiss of your life. Do you think you can forgive me?

Jack: Persuade Me.

^^ LOL.....actually tried to send him to his violent and premature death......but yea that's what it'll pretty much be like.......

lol yea its gonna be akward or it should be

Originally posted by katelovespirate
hahaha SO TRUE. oh geee- and you remember, Anikin only did that in order to save Padme. Will only did it to save Lizzie. But who knows if that will continue????

I think one of the reasons some people still have a hard time seeing the Liz/Jack paring is becuase the evidence for them is all really subtle and confusing (playful banter, metaphors, compasses, attraction, etc) while the evidence for her and Will is pretty obvious (they are engaged). But i dont think the fact that the evidence for Liz and Jack is subtle should make it less important...

Yes thats so true. It's usually the things that are below face value that are the most important to a story. Otherwise they wouldnt be there for you to try and figure out.

and yes thats really kinda similar to the davy/Will thing. Davy is working for the empire where beckett (the emperor) is pulling the strings of Davy(darth vadar)? and he might be able to persuade Will to cut his heart out like him at the Loss of Elizabeth and his own father. I can picture it now "learn to forget everything that is important to you become like ME!"

INTRIGUING... I can SO see Davy saying that. And Davy's already bitter about his gal so he'll really understand Will and sympathize with him so as to get him to his side. Wow, if Disney decides to go with this kinda storyline, it will be a lot darker than most ppl are anticipating. I can definitely see Will changing alliances though, disillusioned by his broken love affair. I read somwhere that the Pirates 3 was going to have most of the protagonists mistrustful of each other, almost every allegiance divided as they fight (each other?)

Originally posted by vegaofthelyre
Please, Ted and Terry, give us more of this kind of delicious dialogue!
Don't let us down.. I'm really looking forward to the scene when Liz and Jack meet again in the 3rd movie. AWKWARD.

Elizabeth: hello, remember me, I'm the one who sent you to to your violent and premature death-- but not before I tricked you with the hottest kiss of your life. Do you think you can forgive me?

Jack: Persuade Me.

THAT is probably my FAVORITE post ever made in this forum. i am speechless with delight. gave me the laugh of my life. I LOVE IT beyond anything ever, wow. hehehehe. Can I use as my sig? thanks.

Also what i find interesting is how that site said Jack uses his drunken movements to keep his enemies off gaurd around him (which he seems to do in the movies)..notice how he seems to be so comfortable around Liz he hardly EVER does it? That must be a mark of deep trust in her.

And another theory..even though the compass points to Jack 3 times as she holds it..it must have also been pointing to the location of the chest..Do you think that she was really finding the way because she wanted to mke JACK happy in finding the chest? Was she really thinking of Jack instead of Will when the compass was showing her the right way to the chest? The fact it points at Jack a 3 times would suggest more of a significance towards her caring more for Jack when finding the chest compared with Will.

ERK!! also seems as if Will is the person who tought her how to use a sword...so he cant be restricting her too much

That wikipedia. it knows everything. HAHAHAHA. oh gee....

Yeah I wouldnt mark Will down as restricting.... I think its more that she's already GOT Will, he isnt a mystery any more. she knows what he tastes like. she knows how he is going to respond to everything. she is probably afraid that he is too good for her in the sense of too honorable--- that she would be restricted by morals, ya know? He fought for her, and continues to fight for her, but she is changing so much. I recently had this discussion with myself about a guy, really caring about him and loving who he was, but knowing that I would end up hurting him soooo much because I am just wild and manipulative and unpredicatble, even to myself.... so thats probably similar to what Liz is feeling---

she cares for him, but the restriction in her own mind about who she would have to be if she stayed with will makes her question her relationship to him.
And then she has Jack there, trusting her, allowing and even encouraging her to let loose and take off the corset, heck, go naked if she pleases. Plus she is attracted to him and he is to her. That flatters her.
I had a lovely dream last night, most of which i dont remember, but in the end i remember being wounded and there was this person that i trusted absolutely right by me, and i just held his hand and fell asleep on his chest, and i woke up with such a sense of well-being. I think in many ways Liz and Jack have that connection... seeing as Jack is a bit older (though probably only about 10 years) and wiser, and seems to know everything, she feels a sense of safety with him... a sense of protection. If she were truly in danger, I think she would run to him, like when she clings to his leg in that moment of hotness.
Jack's line "we're not through this yet love," is so beautiful because it is HONEST... he could put on a goofy grin and make a hopeful remark, but instead of trying to appease her or confuse her (as he does with everyone else, including Gibbs) he just states the truth. Its very emotional, they have an IN that no one else shares. Even when Liz is tricking him, there is this aura of trust and friendship. She wouldnt have done that sort of thing to anyone else. And of course she regretted it later, because she had lost her trusted friend, her hero, that person who could comfort her better than other people could, because he understood her. Now, she feels, no one truly understands who she is, or who she has become.

awww thank you katelovespirate-- of course you can put it in your sig! I'm glad you liked it.

And it's very true that Jack is rarely serious with anyone except Elizabeth. He's always putting on that wild man facade with everyone else, keeping them at a distance. In a lot of ways, Lizzie is the only one that Jack has ACTUAL conversations with. Gibbs might come in a good second.

WOW you are so great with words.

I agree with you so much.

One thing i notice with that site is that they dont really explain what the deeper meanings could be in the film..they just speak about the face value of it all. Have to remember that they are in the dark about whats going to happen next just like we are So what they are saying is still only an opinion.

I wonder if in the next one. There will be a moment where there is a huge danger..I wonder if she will run to Jack for protection instead of Will? Jack might question her over the decision..and it might bring out some home truths between the two..they might just drop the denial and talk about their feelings. If will continues to be hunting for his Dad then Liz is going to feel more and more disconnected from him.

She realised at the end that Jack resembles everything she really wants in a man. Which is a good willed, yet free willed, piratelike person. I think that moment where Jack came back pretty much confirmed for her what she was fearing...That Jack IS what she wants in a man. He has shown her both the qualities she admires...where as Will only shows one..that was it for her..she still wasnt ready to accept it so she tried to just brush the "problem" under the rug again...but on a drastic level..

You dont understand how sold out I will feel if Disney pair Will up with Liz in the next..I'm not kidding I will probably walk out of there cursing at the screen! It would be a HUGE mistake to do that. The majotity audience would leave feeling unsatisfied..I'm sure of it. It wont go down as a great ending to an amazing franchise..it will go down as just your normal average ending..

I mean Jack lose out to WILL? come on!

And even if they try to explain away all the sexual tension between Liz/Jack in the next one... the audience are STILL going to be unhappy..EVEN if will begins to change for her..people are still not going to be satisfied..If Jack shows he doesn't want her people wont like it

they cant dangle this whole amazing possibility infront of everyone and then say ha ha no you cant have it!...gonna piss alot of people off..

As usual, I agree in a big way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I will feel cheated if they explain things away. I mean, I dont know what will happen, and I still think it likely that she will end up with that Will, but i suppose i will generally like the movie.... as long as they dont pretend there isnt or hasnt been anything between Jack and Liz. This is a tough call. If she does have to end up with stupid Will, at least leave things open with Jack-- at least they could make it clear they both care for each other and are still attracted to each other, and just couldnt end up together for now. I will be royally pissed off and feel extremely cheated if they act like nothing is between them, or if they use something dumb to explain it all away.

Or they could do the smart thing and explain away Liz and Will, which seems to be easier to do. hehehehe.

Maybe Lizzie will get preggers...

Oh........I hope not.....

hahaha no because then she couldnt wear exciting pirate clothes!!!!! lol

Originally posted by LovelyOne
WOW you are so great with words.

I agree with you so much.

One thing i notice with that site is that they dont really explain what the deeper meanings could be in the film..they just speak about the face value of it all. Have to remember that they are in the dark about whats going to happen next just like we are So what they are saying is still only an opinion.

I wonder if in the next one. There will be a moment where there is a huge danger..I wonder if she will run to Jack for protection instead of Will? Jack might question her over the decision..and it might bring out some home truths between the two..they might just drop the denial and talk about their feelings. If will continues to be hunting for his Dad then Liz is going to feel more and more disconnected from him.

She realised at the end that Jack resembles everything she really wants in a man. Which is a good willed, yet free willed, piratelike person. I think that moment where Jack came back pretty much confirmed for her what she was fearing...That Jack IS what she wants in a man. He has shown her both the qualities she admires...where as Will only shows one..that was it for her..she still wasnt ready to accept it so she tried to just brush the "problem" under the rug again...but on a drastic level..

You dont understand how sold out I will feel if Disney pair Will up with Liz in the next..I'm not kidding I will probably walk out of there cursing at the screen! It would be a HUGE mistake to do that. The majotity audience would leave feeling unsatisfied..I'm sure of it. It wont go down as a great ending to an amazing franchise..it will go down as just your normal average ending..

I mean Jack lose out to WILL? come on!

And even if they try to explain away all the sexual tension between Liz/Jack in the next one... the audience are STILL going to be unhappy..EVEN if will begins to change for her..people are still not going to be satisfied..If Jack shows he doesn't want her people wont like it

they cant dangle this whole amazing possibility infront of everyone and then say ha ha no you cant have it!...gonna piss alot of people off..

Yes.......if that script for the POTC 3 trailor is real........then Will throws Liz's hands of him sometime in the film.....

gosh maybe it will be liz cutting her heart out. lol

Originally posted by random21
thanks

whoa. that makes sense. and you know the hat was important to him because he makes several comments about it in the first movie like when he threatens elizabeth hes like "Commodore Norrington, my effects, please. And my hat. Commodore." so yeah its important to him and so is elizabeth. sry to change subjects.

anyways i liked how they added how norrington and tia, i think her name is, know that elizabeth wants jack. its pretty funny

haha and im not a flim study person. im only gunna be a freshman =P but i see the clues when you guys point them out.

And don't forget Lord Beckett - he knows too. When she holds him at gunpoint while he is signing the letters of pardon....did you read that thread....

Sometime I wonder if her father secretly worries about Elizabeth having a thing for Jack - notice every time she mentions Jack he gets all uptight - and when Beckett has him handcuffed his hench man tells him that he last saw Elizabeth in Tortuga hooking up with Jack Sparrow, and the Gov's like "oh no" - course I guess it just mean he thinks Sparrow is bad news and nothing but trouble - especially she is being sentenced to death for helping him escape at the end of POTC 1

^^ Yea.......another example of how Jack can cheat death....

Originally posted by katelovespirate
about the compass, i need to watch it again! that is a good point!

the last time I saw it I tried to see if there was some clue - but couldn't see any. But I did wonder if maybe he got frustrated cuz it was pointing to Port Royal. No way to really tell.

LOL, i just remember the scene when they escape from the cannibal island and they are on the Black Pearl-- Will tells Jack he has to help him save Elizabeth and he tells Will he really should keep that girl locked up - like she's wild. Then Will tells him she is locked up for her help in saving him. LOL his response: There comes a time in everyone's live that one must pay for one's mistakes. LOL Classic Jack.

YES CLASSIC JACK!!! thats beautiful. I love that part.

I think when Jack is suggesting lock her up, he is hinting that Will is not man enough to control his woman. Like, c'mon Will, cant you handle her? Cause if you can't, I WILL.... muah hahahaha....

Originally posted by katelovespirate
YES CLASSIC JACK!!! thats beautiful. I love that part.

I think when Jack is suggesting lock her up, he is hinting that Will is not man enough to control his woman. Like, c'mon Will, cant you handle her? Cause if you can't, I WILL.... muah hahahaha....

Oh yes I agree...

You know it's funny how the Liz/Will fans think that when the compass points to Jack it just means she needs to get through Jack to get to Will.
If that were true why does she get that look, Like "this can't be true. I don't want him!" bUT YET AT THE SAME TIME AFTER THE LITTLE PERSUADE ME SCENE - SHE CAN'T HELP SMILE AND FILL ALL GIGGLY ABOUT JACK....TELL ME LADIES YOU DO KNOW WHAT IT'S LIKE TO HAVE SOMEONE YOU HAVE A CRUSH ON FLIRT WITH YOU AND THEN WHEN HE'S GONE YOU HAVE THAT SAME LOOK ELIZABETH HAS ON HER FACE.

Why would they put that part she throws the tantrum on the beach cuz it's pointed to jack once again and Norrington has that look, "Like Oh Please can you stop playing games and just admit you want the guy...."

ahaha i agree

I know I may repeat myself but it's just so funny how Jack has affected all these people's lives and turned them all upside down ever since he sailed into Port Royal....Will was just a blacksmith, but then turned semi-Pirate (because Will still tries to put honor before selfish impulse) at the lead of Our Dear Captain, Elizabeth was just a young lady enjoying the life of a governor's prim daughter - yet now she has turned into a Pirate --- even trading a Man's life to save her own....Poor old Commodore Norrington - he went from upstanding snoot who lived to serve others to a full-fledge snooty pirate - gruby and drunk on rum, then out-foxing them all and running off with Davy Jones' treasure and the letters of pardon for his own selfish reason - reinstatement into the British Ranks.

Jack also has very nasty enemies out to ruin him -Captain Barboorsa, Davy Jones and Cutler Beckett.....

Gosh, he is such a dominant charcter with such charisma
Jack has stolen my heart......

And as I've said before - the hottest Jack Sparrow has ever looked is when he grabs the gun, Elizabeth clinging to his leg as he shoots the rifle, then as his back is turned to Lizzie while he takes what he thinks will be his last look-over the Black Pearl (who he has finally decided to give up - he has essentially chosen Elizabeth over the Black Pearl). He just looks so handsome, manly in that Coat - then when he turns to Elizabeth and softly, enduringly says, "We're not free yet, love" the way he is looking at her just makes you want to melt -and then the witch tricks him - she finally gives into that selfish impulse and turns full-fledged Pirate - but that just makes him admire her all the more - she's a pirate now - just like him -they are alike - two peas in a pod.

When Jack is in the long boat - he starts having doubts about abandoning ship, he turns to look at the land, then his "good nature" finally gets the best of him and pulls out the magical compass -which was not pointing to the Black Pearl....because he tells Gibbs and the crew to abandon ship and Gibbs is like, "Captian, the Black Pearl?" Jack responds, "It's only a ship, mate." Meaning he has realized that people (his friends,Elizabeth) are more important than material objects.....

Jack Sparrow forever.

I just realized I may hay have one of the biggest let down of my life if they don't put Lizzie and Jack together.. Just can't wait to see how Disney has handled the reunion of these two...the first time they face each other since the infamous scene....will just seems like an afterthought in POTC 2, whereas Jack and Elizabeth took the front burner. I know Will had a storyline - but it was actually kind of boring. In fact, the parts on the Flying Dutchman are like the most boring parts of the entire movie...I guess because, maybe it's just me, but I'm just not into Will, he's boring. Jack is so much more appealing. He's wild and untameable. He's a challenge. He's freespirited and oh so sexy. He's crazy, comical, yet can be serious and caring.....He seems more like the hero - and Lizz is the lead lady....Doesn't Disney usaully hook the lead man with the lead lady?

Just repeating myself, but again, I wonder why they would have Elizabeth cling to Jack's leg as he shoots the gun.. IT would have been much more POTC 1 for her to smile at jack and then turn and run down the stairs to Will's side as he drops from the cargo net just before Jack shoots.....and saying "Oh, Will" however, she is wrapped up in Jack - she crawls up the to the platform and grabs on to him in that "oh My Hero" type pose....and he looks so masculine shooting the Gun...yo ho..yummmmmmm - I sure wish they would have showed how they got out of that pose after he shot the gun...

Originally posted by lovethemtigers
the last time I saw it I tried to see if there was some clue - but couldn't see any. But I did wonder if maybe he got frustrated cuz it was pointing to Port Royal. No way to really tell.

LOL, i just remember the scene when they escape from the cannibal island and they are on the Black Pearl-- Will tells Jack he has to help him save Elizabeth and he tells Will he really should keep that girl locked up - like she's wild. Then Will tells him she is locked up for her help in saving him. LOL his response: There comes a time in everyone's live that one must pay for one's mistakes. LOL Classic Jack.

LOL when it comes out on DVD we can use super zoom.

lol you think that Jack was secretly quite moved that Liz was in there for him?

Also notice the double meaning "keep her locked up she's becoming uncontrollable" which is just like Davy Jones and his Calypso.

Originally posted by lovethemtigers
Just repeating myself, but again, I wonder why they would have Elizabeth cling to Jack's leg as he shoots the gun.. IT would have been much more POTC 1 for her to smile at jack and then turn and run down the stairs to Will's side as he drops from the cargo net just before Jack shoots.....and saying "Oh, Will" however, she is wrapped up in Jack - she crawls up the to the platform and grabs on to him in that "oh My Hero" type pose....and he looks so masculine shooting the Gun...yo ho..yummmmmmm - I sure wish they would have showed how they got out of that pose after he shot the gun...

She was completley smitten with him by that point..I think thats when she decides she cant let it go on because there is a real threat that it can in the future, she still is in denial and she doesn't think she wants to accept the possibility.

Originally posted by lovethemtigers
I just realized I may hay have one of the biggest let down of my life if they don't put Lizzie and Jack together.. Just can't wait to see how Disney has handled the reunion of these two...the first time they face each other since the infamous scene....will just seems like an afterthought in POTC 2, whereas Jack and Elizabeth took the front burner. I know Will had a storyline - but it was actually kind of boring. In fact, the parts on the Flying Dutchman are like the most boring parts of the entire movie...I guess because, maybe it's just me, but I'm just not into Will, he's boring. Jack is so much more appealing. He's wild and untameable. He's a challenge. He's freespirited and oh so sexy. He's crazy, comical, yet can be serious and caring.....He seems more like the hero - and Lizz is the lead lady....Doesn't Disney usaully hook the lead man with the lead lady?

pretty much you hit it on the nail will all three posts. i think we are all arriving at that special place of really wanting to see Jack and Liz together.

we will all have to comfort one another big time if it doesnt happen.

i love capn jack too---- best character ever, seriously. whats not to love?!?!

Originally posted by blackpearl44
Oh........I hope not.....

Most Assuredly, un-disney like. We know this won't happen....we can be sure

Originally posted by katelovespirate
pretty much you hit it on the nail will all three posts. i think we are all arriving at that special place of really wanting to see Jack and Liz together.

we will all have to comfort one another big time if it doesnt happen.

i love capn jack too---- best character ever, seriously. whats not to love?!?!

LOL - yes we can all cry over our computers - but I may be so disappointed I will not want to talk about it.....ARRRRGGGH It just doesn't make sense anymore. (Will and Liz, it's so past tense...)

Originally posted by lovethemtigers
.

When Jack is in the long boat - he starts having doubts about abandoning ship, he turns to look at the land, then his "good nature" finally gets the best of him and pulls out the magical compass -which was not pointing to the Black Pearl....because he tells Gibbs and the crew to abandon ship and Gibbs is like, "Captian, the Black Pearl?" Jack responds, "It's only a ship, mate." Meaning he has realized that people (his friends,Elizabeth) are more important than material objects.....

Jack Sparrow forever.

I agree with you.

I think the compass was REALLY pointing at Elizabeth though..because it pointed to her before too when he looked at it. If it suddenly works in those two moments then how could it have been broken throughout the entire movie? It was pointing to Liz the whole time IMO.

He would have gone back any way to save them all even without looking at the compass The fact that Liz is the first person he see's and protects clearly symbolizes what the compass was poining to just moments before.

Also i find this very interesting. I just got my "Pirates of the Caribbean: Curse of the Black Pearl - Lost disc edition" DVD and on the "lost disc" there is a feature involving Johnny talking about his character.. I'll quote:

"To me, my favorite part, the most revealing part of Jack Sparrow is when he's on the island with Elizabeth and she's burnt all the rum. Jack Sparrow who's perversely a master of words and who is truly eloquent is reduced to "NO!" "Not good!" "STOP" "NOT GOOD!". Thats probably the most satisfying moment for me...the most REVEALING for the character"

So its as if Liz is the one who manages to see the real him.

Also that he clings onto material things for comfort..and when its gone his confidence seems to go.

I personally think she's only in lust with him; everyone always wants what they know they can't have. Jack Sparrow is the embodiment of everything Elizabeth has always been denied. She truly loves Will, but Jack brings out the 'bad side' of her, excites her in ways Will doesn't. If you study the body language between Will and Elizabeth it's easy to see how in love they are, for real. Everything between Jack and Elizabeth is heady and exciting but it's not ever-lasting. I think that if we give Will a chance he may prove that he's pirate material through and through and add that to the fact that he absolutely adores Elizabeth, what more could she ask for? Given more time to accept who he truly is, Will should be able to prove that he is a combination of both outlandish pirateer material and honest, respectable husband material. Not a bad choice to make imo.

Originally posted by Syren
I personally think she's only in lust with him; everyone always wants what they know they can't have. Jack Sparrow is the embodiment of everything Elizabeth has always been denied. She truly loves Will, but Jack brings out the 'bad side' of her, excites her in ways Will doesn't. If you study the body language between Will and Elizabeth it's easy to see how in love they are, for real. Everything between Jack and Elizabeth is heady and exciting but it's not ever-lasting. I think that if we give Will a chance he may prove that he's pirate material through and through and add that to the fact that he absolutely adores Elizabeth, what more could she ask for? Given more time to accept who he truly is, Will should be able to prove that he is a combination of both outlandish pirateer material and honest, respectable husband material. Not a bad choice to make imo.

I would disagree. That whole last scene was about him coming back for her..he cares about her alot. It was to save the others too but there is a bond between the two in this scene. I think that Jack see's Liz as more of an equal..She's different to him. Also read the hat theory...

Will in this movie seems to be going off of Liz a tad..he gets distracted a lot. He has changed his priorities around..it was more about his father in this one. Not Liz. But with Jack it was ALL about Liz at the end..he was there for her when Will wasn't. She depends on him and he's always there when she needs it most..(think back to the begining od PotC1)

Also read my post above^^ it suggests that Jack lets his gaurd down when Liz is around..which is something he hardly ever does with anyone..As a matter of fact..its ONLY her who he seems to let his gaurd slip with..he must trust her alot to allow her to see that part of him in the latest movie..

She seems to be the only one who can ever get to the core of who he really is..

Originally posted by LovelyOne
Also i find this very interesting. I just got my "Pirates of the Caribbean: Curse of the Black Pearl - Lost disc edition" DVD and on the "lost disc" there is a feature involving Johnny talking about his character.. I'll quote:

"To me, my favorite part, the most revealing part of Jack Sparrow is when he's on the island with Elizabeth and she's burnt all the rum. Jack Sparrow who's perversley a master of words and who is truly eloquent is reduced to "NO!" "Not good!" "STOP" "NOT GOOD!". Thats probably the most satisfying moment for me...the most REVEALING for the character"

So its as if Liz is the one who manages to see the real him.

Also that he clings onto material things for comfort..and when its gone his confidence seems to go.

But it's not Liz who's brought him to a vocal standstill, it's the loss of the rum. She burned it but he's not fumbling his words because she makes him feel weak at the knees, it's because the rum has gone. She just happens to be the one who was there when he became vulnerable, not necessarily emotionally vulnerable either. Just an alcoholic who can't see a way to save the blessed rum.

Jack and Liz are HOTT.

i know i know, i am known around these parts for my extremely diverse conversation and eloquent statements... HAHAHAHA. sorry guys, thats about all i can say this morning!

Originally posted by Syren
But it's not Liz who's brought him to a vocal standstill, it's the loss of the rum. She burned it but he's not fumbling his words because she makes him feel weak at the knees, it's because the rum has gone. She just happens to be the one who was there when he became vulnerable, not necessarily emotionally vulnerable either. Just an alcoholic who can't see a way to save the blessed rum.

It is Liz..she beat him at his own game. He is usually the one who wins one over on people..especially women..but Liz..She just totally got him back..which makes her different. She has also seen that he is a man who clings onto possesions for comfort..but if you take them away..then his confidence dissapears. Which hints that he needs something more in life than just rum and his hat..(read the hat theory)

Liz totally wins one over on him at the end of this one too..and you can see how turned on and how even.."proud" of her he is in that scene He's smiling at her. She has just beat him at his own game..which makes her different to pretty much every other woman he has been with.

Also Jack has a deal of respect for Tia too..even though he slept with her he hasn't abandoned her, she didnt slap his face when she met him..It seems as if he has respect/more of a friendship with the woman who can show him a thing or two about himself...and Liz has just totally stepped it up to a higher level, more so than Tia.

Liz is also showing signs in this movie that she's not one for a married and resticted life..She has changed alot since Will last saw her. He left her like a bird in a cage (prison/marriage to him) comes back and sees her as a bird that has broken free and embraced the life of freedom (pirate clothes, fighting)

You know... you're really bringing me around to your way of thinking. I guess I just really appreciate the sweet, true love thing they've built between Will and Liz. But I can also see how Will could be the next Davy Jones, especially if he ends up falling for 'Calypso'/Tia

Boy I had to go back and read like 3 pages of stuff can you guys like tone it down while Im at work so I can keep up lol.

Anyway, in many studies in college I learned through reading stories and watching Film Noir that the average HOUSE woman does not want to be locked up and bound to her husband serving him the rest of her life. Most women would rather be FREE of this and be able to make their own choices through life. Most of us LONG to be like the person we admire if that person HAS what we want the most. Lets say for example, I have a friend who I admire A LOT because he can stand up for himself, he has been through college and done the programs I Wanted to be in. He is able to be who he really is without any regrets or without feeling put down by others. Without a care in the world about what others think.
Suddenly I found myself attracted to him I still WANT to be with him but he doesnt want to be with me. I want to be with him because he has everything that I want to accomplish.

I am comparing this to the way Liz feels about Jack, Jack has everything she wants like you guys said before. In that picture of Liz and Will kissing that is just her way of saying to herself "Do I really want to be locked up serving a husband the rest of my life?" Now when she kisses Jack like you guys said, He lets her have control. Most women would rather not be controlled and would rather have control themselves which is why she feels this way for him because he lets her have what she wants most.

Most of us want our happy little fairy tales to come true. We all want to be with the person who has everything that we want the most. We are attracted to the complete OPPOSITE (in personality) Because that is who we really want to be but we are afraid to sometimes.

Anyway thats better explaining why Liz is attracted to Jack that way and why the compass is always pointing at him. Even though Disney MAY NOT make them happen, they may just explain that the compass was pointing at Jack because Liz just wants everything that he has , His freedom his heroicness ect.

Agreed^^

But Jack is showing signs that he wants more in life than just his hat or his rum or his pearl.

As Johnny said:
"To me, my favorite part, the most revealing part of Jack Sparrow is when he's on the island with Elizabeth and she's burnt all the rum. Jack Sparrow who's perversely a master of words and who is truly eloquent is reduced to "NO!" "Not good!" "STOP" "NOT GOOD!". Thats probably the most satisfying moment for me...the most REVEALING for the character"

Jack clings onto material things because he feels they make him what he is..they give him a sense of false confidence..But when you take them away he loses his confidence. This shows us that even though he portrays this fearless and confident character you take away one material thing and he loses the confident aura....The material possesions in his life are just not enough to make him feel whole..He needs something else..which brings my liz/hat theory into play again..

Its also like a wall he puts up..he deliberatly clings to material/inanimate objects as if they are the most important thing in the world to him because he is afraid to let anyone in and get close to him. But Liz is breaking through..and notice how he slowly lets go of material possesions such as the pearl.

"Jack sparrow does not know what he WANTS!" - Tia knows..he wants someone to get close, he wants to care for someone other than himself, thats why the compass wasn't showing him what he thought he wanted..which was a means to save his own skin. Along comes liz..Miss "hat" Miss answer to all his troubles..

He's learning empathy, consideration for others, through Liz?

Originally posted by Syren
He's learning empathy, consideration for others, through Liz?

I some what think so yes.. but he has always had a tendancey to put other people before himself though even in the first movie..but never cared to admit it..he seems to have always been a caring person..but tries hard to pretend he's not.

He never lets anyone get close enough to the soft hearted man hidden behind the material objects which make him feel secure.

its kinda just a mask he wears..Liz helped him realise that the man underneath is brave even without the mask..he no longer needs it. He can let his material possesions go and start to care for people.. like her. He can let people in..and still be this brave, fearless man.

Yep I agree, all I can say is he is hot and if I was in the movie I would fight Liz for him lol Eh check out this picture I found its kinda funny Sorry being random right now lol.

http://www.81x.com/Authors/potccostume/cuddly_eww.JPG

OMG I just found this one too, Looks like Jack wants to Kill Will lol

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v129/daftanddemented/cjs/gallery1/JackSparrowPotC1_50.jpg

LOL funny pictures^^

I dont know if Jack actually realises that his priorities are changing..even by the end of the second movie..its still not resolved..Its probably going to carry on into the next where he finally realises..

It ended on a cliff hanger..where the characters are still all confused as to what they truley want.

Liz: Jack or will, the pirate life or the boring life?

Jack: material possesions or Liz?, to pretend to still not care or to let someone in?

Will: Liz or his father? Pirate or good man?

Eh guys I just drew this on Macromedia Flash think of some captions

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/8152/jacklizij2.png

(If you dont believe its mine go to Newgrounds and search my user name I do animation).

Augh stupid Imageshack someone tell me how to post my picture IN the post instead of the link?

Nevermind I fixed it lol .

Originally posted by LovelyOne
LOL i know^^ and katelovespirate did you mean LIZ slept with him? and yeh it was a twang of jealousy...

The way she looks when Jack mentions that about her having the letters in a dishonest way whilst Will set off with honor is so funny, she's like "well I never!"

and its so true..Will goes and does the honorable thing ALWAYS.

and it's really funny how he takes them anyway..

something else makes me laugh about that after she says to jack "yes beckett did mention something about a chest" jack turns and looks at her right in the face..she sort of flinches

That whole "Will told you I know how to handle a sword?" then the "like I said....PERSUADE ME" thats SOOOO hot! and the way she ..doesn't know what to do or how to respond and just storms off makes me crack up.

then smiles bless her

Oh yes, the persuade me scene is really very HOTT. I love that when he says, "As I said, Persuade Me." She knows what he's implying that's why she is smiling when Norrington approaches her - she's imaging having to persuade Jack...I love Jack's face - remember his backs to her when she whispers to him, "Did Will tell you he taught me how to handle a sword?. His facial expression is awesome. That's what makes Johnny so great in this role - it's all about his expressions and mannerisms, man he's awesome. Still can't he's never won an oscar.

The part about the chest - that is hysterical. She gives him the weirdest facial expression - Gosh, just love it, love it.....can't get enough of it.

Originally posted by LovelyOne
I agree with you.

I think the compass was REALLY pointing at Elizabeth though..because it pointed to her before too when he looked at it. If it suddenly works in those two moments then how could it have been broken throughout the entire movie? It was pointing to Liz the whole time IMO.

He would have gone back any way to save them all even without looking at the compass The fact that Liz is the first person he see's and protects clearly symbolizes what the compass was poining to just moments before.

Very True - I hadn't thought of it that way, although you have said that before it finally clicks. It can be just coincidence that all of sudden he's there - and it's her he sees, Not Gibbs, Not Will ---Liz...I love the way the hallow of light is around him - when she looks up at him - and that angle shot - pure heroism....

Originally posted by Syren
But it's not Liz who's brought him to a vocal standstill, it's the loss of the rum. She burned it but he's not fumbling his words because she makes him feel weak at the knees, it's because the rum has gone. She just happens to be the one who was there when he became vulnerable, not necessarily emotionally vulnerable either. Just an alcoholic who can't see a way to save the blessed rum.

But if you read the biography of Jack Sparrow - he is not really a drunk - that's an act he puts on to keep others around him off guard. (But he does love his rum, but it doesn't mean he's a chronic drunk) He never wants anyone to see his true self. However, Elizabeth has witnessed some of his more vunerable moments. He's usually a clown around most people - I've never even seen him be totally serious with his dear old friend, Mr. Gibbs.

I really believe Jack was deeply hurt at some point in his past and he puts on all these cherades and carries on the way he does to hide that pain....I think he truly yearns to be loved - someone who can accept him as he is, long hair, bad breath and all - and that person is Elizabeth. She has an unshakeable confidence in Jack. He is never more vunerable than in that last scene of POTC2 - that's a side of Jack Sparrow we have never seen before - his only lines in this scene "It's only a ship, mate"......"We're not free yet, love" and then of course, "Pirate" to Elizabeth....I just love the kiss scene - after she's already had her kiss and manuevered him over to the mast and chained his hand - she could have easily just backed away and said "Jack, this is goodbye - the Kraken wants you not us...." but instead she stays right up in his face and almost gives him another kiss - she wants to really bad but if she does she may change her mind - plus you can tell despite the fact that she has just sentenced him to his certain death - he definetly would've kissed her back again. It's so great how he is just smiling at her in that whole seen. Wow.

Originally posted by lovethemtigers
But if you read the biography of Jack Sparrow - he is not really a drunk - that's an act he puts on to keep others around him off guard. (But he does love his rum, but it doesn't mean he's a chronic drunk) He never wants anyone to see his true self. However, Elizabeth has witnessed some of his more vunerable moments. He's usually a clown around most people - I've never even seen him be totally serious with his dear old friend, Mr. Gibbs.

I really believe Jack was deeply hurt at some point in his past and he puts on all these cherades and carries on the way he does to hide that pain....I think he truly yearns to be loved - someone who can accept him as he is, long hair, bad breath and all - and that person is Elizabeth. She has an unshakeable confidence in Jack. He is never more vunerable than in that last scene of POTC2 - that's a side of Jack Sparrow we have never seen before - his only lines in this scene "It's only a ship, mate"......"We're not free yet, love" and then of course, "Pirate" to Elizabeth....I just love the kiss scene - after she's already had her kiss and manuevered him over to the mast and chained his hand - she could have easily just backed away and said "Jack, this is goodbye - the Kraken wants you not us...." but instead she stays right up in his face and almost gives him another kiss - she wants to really bad but if she does she may change her mind - plus you can tell despite the fact that she has just sentenced him to his certain death - he definetly would've kissed her back again. It's so great how he is just smiling at her in that whole seen. Wow.

YEH! I agree

and you are right.. if she did kiss him again she would have probably changed her mind..so she quickly says "no" in her mind and pulls back again..then the "I'm not sorry" was her trying to persuade herself that she doesn't care for him..but she dooooeeesss ..LOL and Jack laughed because he could see right through the lies..that whole scene was about her trying to convince herself that she's not in love with him. "oh i'm doing it for the others!" "I'm not sorry" Jack's just silent..he knows exactly why she did it..

Yep yep I cant really think of much more to add lol.

I also agree with the fact that Jack has once been really hurt so he now tries to not let anyone in and thats probably why he also claims he only loves inanimate objects..

Its like all the stuff, rum, hat, ship, sea, sword, pistol..its like thats him saying LOOK im a pirate ..as if he feels he has to prove it to people..and if you take it away from him it seems as if he cant bare to let anyone see whats underneath..He feels as if it questions his status as pirate..

You know I'm beginning to wonder how much more we can analyze, fantasize and ponder.....Captain Jack Sparrow is such a complex character -I doubt Johnny even knows all of Jack's secret. But it sure is fun chatting about it, isn't it....it'll be really interesting to read all of this after POTC 3 is released and see if we had it right or not.....

Isn't Johnny on David Letterman tonight - July 27th??? I think I saw someone post that just the other day.

Yeh I agree with you. It will be funny if we all are wrong with our theories..we would never hear the end of it I'm sure

Yes I think he is on. I dont live over there so I cant see

Eh do you guys think I should Animate my Pirates 3 script when I rewrite it? I posted a picture a bit further back that I drew with macromedia flash.

Oh yeh LOL that would be awsome!! and I forgot to say that the pic was really cool good job!

I was about to comment on it but then I got distracted with a post and i jumped into responding to it.

Thanks and Thats ok heh. It would probably take me ages though.

you know, i still think Jack is an alcoholic. I just dont think he is always drunk. But as shown in the map scene before he meets bootstrap, he does drink quite often. but i DO think it is less a part of his character than other things.


looks like you guys have been having quite a discussion! yay! yeah i totally love that vulnerable side of Captn. Jack, which i honestly have only ever seen when he is around Lizzie. Coincidence? Maybe. But i think not.
Plus Jack takes great care to stay on good terms with her... as in the first one in that deleted scene "Is there a problem with us Ms. Swann?" he is frustrated that she is angry, when he hasnt done anything. He wants to be on good terms with her, whereas with Will he doesnt give a care whether Will hates him or not (though Will is too honorable to do that).

Sweetkat- Do that animation!!!! that would be AMAZING. if you have the time, of course...

I've been thinking about something that I will have to post later when i have more time....

THAT^^ is so true lol. Its like Liz..just means something different to him..I think he was pretty taken with her the first moment he saw her..after saving her life.

People keep saying to me that Jack only went and saved her to get away from the two guards but thats just complete BS because he dragged her right back to where they where.

Also he must have known it would draw more attention to himself.

He's such a good man at heart lol.

Was it you who picked up on that whole scene where everything he says seems to have happened in the next movie or is going to happen in movie 3 (Singapore) that was a really good observation.

In an interview johnny said that his character walks like that on land because he has developed sea legs

Also..I don't think that swaying thing he does is a drunk thing..because in the curiosity scene he does that at first and then when Liz comes and stands next to him he lets his guard down and he actually looks pretty calm and composed compared to a few seconds earlier. Its when she starts talking about who she thinks he really is "a good man, I have faith in you" he looks so calm there..

Yeah I noticed through the second movie that he didnt 'sway' as much as he did in the first movie which sort of confused me I was wondering why they got rid of that. Maybe it's because they made his character more serious when he is around Liz, and stuff.

yeah its so true!! I love when he gets calm. thats hott. plus the stakes were a lot higher in this one--- he had to work harder to get time for his shenagins.

yeah i totally think that scene explains the whole trilogy. hahaha.

im watching letterman, then i will finish my thoughts...

So i was just watching that scene when Liz first shows up to find Will at Tortuga, and she meets up with Capn Jack outside the pearl....

when he realizes its her, and says Elizabeth---- there is some DEPTH in the way he says that. people can go off on how i am over-exagerating or whatever, but seriously, if you really look at him and listen to him carefully, he is not just showing surprise.

He's totally showing this odd mixture of delight/surprise/fear/nervousness. Its sort of this growly question like, Wow funny you should show up I've been thinking about you a lot lately..... something like that. And then he instantly goes into his goofy self with the "no dress" bit to cover that up...

this is true/ I've kind of thought that too- that it was more like, ah Elizabeth...I've gotten rid of Will, maybe I can make my moves on her now....

He constantly is trying to get rid of Will -he sends him to the Flying Dutchman to retrieve the Key from Davy Jones, he knocks him over the head with the paddle, but this is funniest of all:

When they are fighting on the Will and Norrington knocks the sword out of Jack's hands,
Norrington says to Will, "Do excuse me while I kill the man who ruined my life.
Will - Be my guest
Jack - (as norrington raises his sword at him) Let's us examine that claim, former Commodore Norrington, shall we? Who was it that at the very moment you had a notorious pirate safely behind bars saw fit to free said Pirate and take your dearly beloved all to his self, eh? So, who's fault is it really that you've ended up a rum-pot deckhand what takes orders from Pirates (What a classic Jack Sparrow argument)
Norrington - Enough!......Unfortunately Mr. Turner, he's right.
Jack - STill rooting for you, mate."
Love how he puts the key necklace over his neck and starts walking off so non-chalantly then falls into that grave hole, then says, OH

It's so funny how Jack is always referencing to Will not being a "real man." In POTC in the blacksmith shop when he says, "You need to find yourself a girl, mate.....or, perhaps you have found said strumpet and are unable to persue her, you're not a eunich, or YOU?" and glances down at Will's front - so funny. Then on Cannibal Island when he is dressed as their King and Poor Will is hanging from the pole, Jack tells the natives, "Lam, lam picky, picky...lam, lam Insy, Winsy, Lam, Lam Say, Say Eunichy, Eunicy, snipy, snipy.....And then to Davy Jones, when speaking to him of Will : "Have you met Will Turner. He's noble, heroic, terrific soprano (LOL), worth at least 4, maybe 3 and a half....."

I agree with what both of you say

Its true about the tortuga scene..and the way he reacts as if "ah I've found you" links back to the hat theory where just seconds earlier he was in confusion about finding the right hat..then along it comes in the form of Liz..wearing the hat and all

LOL that no dress thing..I love they way Liz looks when he says it..its like."annnyy way jack where's Will?" its funny how with every scene between the two she slowly starts to fall for Jack and her denial gets greater and greater..In that first flirt with her..you can see that she's not really disgusted with what he just said..she kinda smirks as if to say "ohh Jack" ..."thats my good old Jack"..

I KNOW lovethemtigers!! he's soooo sooo jealous of Will in this movie!! Like when Tia starts flirting with Will Jack hurries and puts a stop to it its like "no..no getting to know here!!..anyway I thought I knew you?" "stay away from my women Will you are NOT the alpha male!"

lol and he always tries to put a downer on Will and his sexual abilities like you said with the tribe scene..Embarassed him infront of all the natives!!

I also just realised that I was wrong about where Jack was standing on the beach with the compass scene..It did point towards the water where Jack was standing but that was not the direction Will emerged the sea....

"that's my good old Jack"-- LovelyOne, i love that. So charming. Its funny how both Liz and Will seem sooooo happy to have Jack back in their lives, for better or worse, i bet they were pretty bored without him.

And it's interesting that Liz goes to Jack when she is lookin for Will... i mean, logically she should have stayed where she was in case Will was already on his way home, but instead she goes straight for Tortuga. And while she's there, she doesnt seem to be looking for Will at all. IMO. And the way she says "I know Will came to find you, where is he?" sounds a bit strange. it just doesnt seem like she IS too excited about finding him.

But as usual, i could be blowing things way out of proportion.

LOL^^ its like.."let me join you on your sea adventure Jack??..PLEASEEE???"

yeah I agree with you on what you say

I also notice that Jack could have told her the truth about what he did to Will..but he didn't because he obviously didn't want to make her upset with him..if he didnt care that he might lose her friendship in the future then he would have said what he really did to him..but no..he wants her to be there in his life..

Originally posted by katelovespirate
"that's my good old Jack"-- LovelyOne, i love that. So charming. Its funny how both Liz and Will seem sooooo happy to have Jack back in their lives, for better or worse, i bet they were pretty bored without him.

And it's interesting that Liz goes to Jack when she is lookin for Will... i mean, logically she should have stayed where she was in case Will was already on his way home, but instead she goes straight for Tortuga. And while she's there, she doesnt seem to be looking for Will at all. IMO. And the way she says "I know Will came to find you, where is he?" sounds a bit strange. it just doesnt seem like she IS too excited about finding him.

But as usual, i could be blowing things way out of proportion.

I'm am like the biggest Jack/Liz fan but I don't think that this true. She leaves because she longs for adventure and freedom...she couldn't stay, her father had already sprung her - she may have faced death before Will even returned. She goes to Jack, cuz Will told her that's where he was going....to find Jack. But I love it how when Will tells her he's leaving to find Jack to get the compass, she's like "i believe in both of you." I think she is intrigued with the idea that she might run into dear old Captain Jack, when she sets out on her adventure. Remember that look on her face at the end of POTC when Jack says: I'm sorry, Elizabeth, it would never have worked between us, darling." As she turns back around it's kind of like, "OMG I never thought he was even interested in me and now he's saying that like there was something between us." It gets her thinking. "What would it be like If Jack and I were a couple. After all, he is a dashing pirate, something i've always fantasised about. " Jack and Liz's very first scene togther - she looks at him like she can't take her eyes off of him, she is so intrigued by him....and the fact that he holds her at gunpoint gets her even more excited (secretly).....remember she tells the handmaidened, "Oh, frightening" - but not really you can tell by the look on her face and slight smile. She secretly found it very exciting.

Yeah Jack is very "in the moment" which i love. Lizzie is more that way. Will is the planner of them. Not to say Jack doesnt make plans, but the way he carries them out is pretty go-with-the-flow (well, it has to be, as people are always screwing up his plans because they dont trust him.)

I think When Jack is first rowing away from the Pearl during the kraken attack, that is HIS attempt to deny his feelings for Liz and convince himself that he is a true pirate and his only love is the sea. I know we've been over this a thousand times, but he really doesnt want to row away at all. He just cant believe he actually fell for her. He cant believe he is putting other people's lives before his own, he cant believe how un-piraty he is acting. But going back is all worth it... lol.

If Liz is anything like me, when she calls Jack coward, it is more of frustration and sense of abandonment than actual anger toward Jack... Liz knows he is a pirate, but she has been seeing more and more humanity, depth, and good from him. She feels sudden loss because she is thinking that he left HER, not just the crew. He isnt there for HER, when she wants him to be. She really doesnt think or ever has thought he was a real coward, but rather, was really upset he didnt care about her enough to stay.
Because obviously when he comes back, she isnt mad in the slightest. She's so glad to have someone to cling to and let handle the battle. lol.
i love that between them. I love that hero shot of Jack picking up the gun. so hott. such good storytelling.

There's also another theory about Jack and Liz's growing intimacy and friendship and possibly romance: the way he says her name. In the beginning it starts out "Ms. Swann" and Liz seems adamant about keeping it at that... cold and proper. Like, she is wanting to never have contact with him again. Then, by the end of the film, it is down to Elizabeth, and she doesnt seem to mind... and in the 2nd film we get to "lizzie".... a pet name you would only call someone you were extremely close to. Jack is always taking chances with her, seeing if he can take things a step furthur.

How many more threads can be started for this topic???? i am confused on threads right now. Its like we have to post our theories on a billion different threads, LOL.

Originally posted by lovethemtigers
I'm am like the biggest Jack/Liz fan but I don't think that this true. She leaves because she longs for adventure and freedom...she couldn't stay, her father had already sprung her - she may have faced death before Will even returned. She goes to Jack, cuz Will told her that's where he was going....to find Jack. But I love it how when Will tells her he's leaving to find Jack to get the compass, she's like "i believe in both of you." I think she is intrigued with the idea that she might run into dear old Captain Jack, when she sets out on her adventure. Remember that look on her face at the end of POTC when Jack says: I'm sorry, Elizabeth, it would never have worked between us, darling." As she turns back around it's kind of like, "OMG I never thought he was even interested in me and now he's saying that like there was something between us." It gets her thinking. "What would it be like If Jack and I were a couple. After all, he is a dashing pirate, something i've always fantasised about. " Jack and Liz's very first scene togther - she looks at him like she can't take her eyes off of him, she is so intrigued by him....and the fact that he holds her at gunpoint gets her even more excited (secretly).....remember she tells the handmaidened, "Oh, frightening" - but not really you can tell by the look on her face and slight smile. She secretly found it very exciting.

absolutely. beautifully put. i have been meaning to bring up that moment at the end of the 1st one, but you covered it perfectly. That is EXACTLY what she is thinking! lol.
She totally found it exciting. She is obsessed with pirates, and here is her fantasy come to life. Of course, she doesnt really know who she is yet (she is young) and so goes with the tamer version of her fantasy (Will- a pirate, but not really). But now, she doesnt want the tame version anymore...

Originally posted by katelovespirate
Yeah Jack is very "in the moment" which i love. Lizzie is more that way. Will is the planner of them. Not to say Jack doesnt make plans, but the way he carries them out is pretty go-with-the-flow (well, it has to be, as people are always screwing up his plans because they dont trust him.)

I think When Jack is first rowing away from the Pearl during the kraken attack, that is HIS attempt to deny his feelings for Liz and convince himself that he is a true pirate and his only love is the sea. I know we've been over this a thousand times, but he really doesnt want to row away at all. He just cant believe he actually fell for her. He cant believe he is putting other people's lives before his own, he cant believe how un-piraty he is acting. But going back is all worth it... lol.

If Liz is anything like me, when she calls Jack coward, it is more of frustration and sense of abandonment than actual anger toward Jack... Liz knows he is a pirate, but she has been seeing more and more humanity, depth, and good from him. She feels sudden loss because she is thinking that he left HER, not just the crew. He isnt there for HER, when she wants him to be. She really doesnt think or ever has thought he was a real coward, but rather, was really upset he didnt care about her enough to stay.
Because obviously when he comes back, she isnt mad in the slightest. She's so glad to have someone to cling to and let handle the battle. lol.
i love that between them. I love that hero shot of Jack picking up the gun. so hott. such good storytelling.

There's also another theory about Jack and Liz's growing intimacy and friendship and possibly romance: the way he says her name. In the beginning it starts out "Ms. Swann" and Liz seems adamant about keeping it at that... cold and proper. Like, she is wanting to never have contact with him again. Then, by the end of the film, it is down to Elizabeth, and she doesnt seem to mind... and in the 2nd film we get to "lizzie".... a pet name you would only call someone you were extremely close to. Jack is always taking chances with her, seeing if he can take things a step furthur.

How many more threads can be started for this topic???? i am confused on threads right now. Its like we have to post our theories on a billion different threads, LOL.

OH MY!! you are so right..seriously you are amazing with words.

I agree with you on the whole him trying to be in denial over her thing and sailing away. If that scene wasnt REALLY about him going back for her then that leg clinging part didn't need to be in there at all. That one moment is where we truly see what Jack means to her. Him stepping on the gun looking down at her is basically: "I'm here for you liz" and the way she's staring up at him completley in awe "you came back for ME"..he picks up the gun and she has such a confidence in her face like she knows Jack could pull it off without a doubt all the fear is gone from her face. Then she clings to his leg like he is her ultimate protection..her hero..aww..

She didnt show that confidence in Will when he handed her the gun and said he was going to go up there with the gun powder..she had a uncertain look on her face as if she was trying to convince herself that everything was going to be ok and that Will would pull it off...which he didnt really did he? He got stuck.

Exactly! i could go on and on about this scene. seriously. its masterful. She sees Jack as something that is strong and will protect her. She has had a pretty rough time of it without him- trying to kill the kraken, but she cant because of poor bumbling will getting stuck, then she gets dragged by the kraken and gets save by- guess who- pirates.... so she is pretty battered by the time Jack shows up. and then she just lets him handle everything from there, which he does, beautifully. its like, when worse comes to worse, Jack can make things right.

Will is constantly putting pressure on Liz--- pressure to act a certain way, pressure to get everything right, pressure to trust him without really giving her reasons to. Like at the end when he hands her the gun-- thats putting a LOT of pressure on her to back him up, asking her to shoot the gun after he gets it all together...
With Jack things always seem a bit more playful and experimental... which IMO is the way life should be... you cant always get everything right the first time. you have to learn stuff and grow through mistakes. Jack is there to pick up the pieces when she is slumming it: picks up the gun and takes care of that for her, helps her find a way to Will even though he probably guesses she and will are in an unstable place... and so makes sure there is time before she reaches Will to think about what she wants, etc... its him thats always encouraging her to give up the expected and be who she is.
I am not making this very clear, but basically the point I am getting at is:
Will tends to make her rely on HIMSELF a lot, while Jack is teaching her to rely on HERSELF, to be strong in that. But he is always ready to step in when she needs him.

Yes, he doesn't tell her the truth about Will because he doens't want her to know that he's done something selfish to Will. He does want to be "admired" by her. Yeah I love that look on her face after he makes the "no dress" comment. She looks a little shy, then is like "come on Jack, where's will..."

You are so right - from that scene all the way up to the kiss - each time they are together the flirting increases, she falls deeper and deeper under his spell. First we start with the "no dress", very next scene when he is explaining how the compass works, she's getting that little smile and giddy look on her face - I bet her stomach has butterflies when he's holding her hands around the compass.

Next is the persuade me conversation - Jack takes the flirting a step further, besides just suggesting he'd like to see her without clothes on, now he's suggesting something even more sexual, "Persuade Me."

Then she is daydreaming about him and what "Persuade Me" means, as witnessed by former commodore Norrington (who, by the way, I just love - he is a great character.)

Next is the "mar-ri-age" "I'm so ready to be married" the look on Jack's face is priceless - he suggests that he could perform a marriage so that she can "be married". I just love it when he says "Why Not..." this progresses into the "Curiosity" conversation and we all know how sexual this one becomes and almosts ends in a kiss. And she so wants Jack to kiss her - and the disappointment is so obvious in the fake, "I'm proud of you, Jack."

The beach scene - you can tell how hurt she is when she found out Jack was lying about Will. "What!"

Then it's the hanging on the leg sequence when "Hero" jack fires the shot, looking oh say Alpha Male. Ooo-la-la.
Finally, the kiss of death. Both of them wanted that kiss -bad. I just think every scene that Jack is wearing his coat is when he looks the sexiest... I don't know what it is about that coat - but he is soo HOTTTT when he is wearing it.....

I love rehasing these scenes - it's like seeing the movie all over again in my mind. I think I will go crazy waiting for it to come out on DVD>...

Originally posted by lovethemtigers
Yes, he doesn't tell her the truth about Will because he doens't want her to know that he's done something selfish to Will. He does want to be "admired" by her. Yeah I love that look on her face after he makes the "no dress" comment. She looks a little shy, then is like "come on Jack, where's will..."

You are so right - from that scene all the way up to the kiss - each time they are together the flirting increases, she falls deeper and deeper under his spell. First we start with the "no dress", very next scene when he is explaining how the compass works, she's getting that little smile and giddy look on her face - I bet her stomach has butterflies when he's holding her hands around the compass.

Next is the persuade me conversation - Jack takes the flirting a step further, besides just suggesting he'd like to see her without clothes on, now he's suggesting something even more sexual, "Persuade Me."

Then she is daydreaming about him and what "Persuade Me" means, as witnessed by former commodore Norrington (who, by the way, I just love - he is a great character.)

Next is the "mar-ri-age" "I'm so ready to be married" the look on Jack's face is priceless - he suggests that he could perform a marriage so that she can "be married". I just love it when he says "Why Not..." this progresses into the "Curiosity" conversation and we all know how sexual this one becomes and almosts ends in a kiss. And she so wants Jack to kiss her - and the disappointment is so obvious in the fake, "I'm proud of you, Jack."

The beach scene - you can tell how hurt she is when she found out Jack was lying about Will. "What!"

Then it's the hanging on the leg sequence when "Hero" jack fires the shot, looking oh say Alpha Male. Ooo-la-la.
Finally, the kiss of death. Both of them wanted that kiss -bad. I just think every scene that Jack is wearing his coat is when he looks the sexiest... I don't know what it is about that coat - but he is soo HOTTTT when he is wearing it.....

I love rehasing these scenes - it's like seeing the movie all over again in my mind. I think I will go crazy waiting for it to come out on DVD>...


Speaking of Giddy, I AM getting giddy thinking about all this. SOOOO true all around. yay.
I love the marriage bit.... I think Liz is shocked he brought it up. She has never looked at him as the marrying kind (actually he probably hasnt looked at himself that way either...) and what he brings up as sort of a flirtatious joke he actually refuses to drop:
"Why not? We are very much alike you and I... I and you... US."
SO HOTT moment. One of my fav. lines from the film. I mean, this is Jack SParrow! In his mind, what starts out as a joke, suddenly makes sense to him. Why shouldnt they just get married? Heck, they are a lot alike, which Liz even ascertains after offering the perfunctory argument about hygeine or whatever, which Jack easily brushes aside, getting to heart of the matter.

Then, when they hit the island, and Jack agrees that everything he said to Liz was a lie, i think they both dont really care what he said about Will, but she is wondering if all his flirting was a lie. Now, typical Jack moment, he has just seen WIll and Liz kiss, is feeling jealous and surly, and so he gives her a little slap in the face with his yeah, it was pretty much all a lie.

But then of course, they both realize it wasnt a lie in the scene when Jack comes back to the pearl...

Originally posted by katelovespirate
Will is the planner of them. Not to say Jack doesnt make plans, but the way he carries them out is pretty go-with-the-flow (well, it has to be, as people are always screwing up his plans because they dont trust him.)

Great - this is so true. Jack really does have underlying plans -everything has a purpose, they all think he's being devious -just out for himself- and they don't trust him so they do it their way and his well-intended plans are screwed up.


I think When Jack is first rowing away from the Pearl during the kraken attack, that is HIS attempt to deny his feelings for Liz and convince himself that he is a true pirate and his only love is the sea.

I LOVE THIS THEORY. THAT IS EXACTLY WHY HE IS ROWING AWAY IN THE BOAT. HIS FACE IS FULL OF PAIN WHILE HE IS ROWING AWAY BUT THEN HE STOPS, LOOKS AT THE COMPASS AND IS LIKE "OKAY I CAN'T DO THIS TO SOMEONE I REALLY CARE ABOUT - I MUST GO BACK AND SAVE HER AND THEM -

Because obviously when he comes back, she isnt mad in the slightest. She's so glad to have someone to cling to and let handle the battle. lol.
i love that between them. I love that hero shot of Jack picking up the gun. so hott. such good storytelling.

Yes, indeed. This is one of my favorite scenes - because without words, this scene more than any other that takes place shows what is between jack and Elizabeth. I really think this is the most significant scene in the movie. The general public will not pick up on this.


There's also another theory about Jack and Liz's growing intimacy and friendship and possibly romance: the way he says her name. In the beginning it starts out "Ms. Swann" and Liz seems adamant about keeping it at that... cold and proper. Like, she is wanting to never have contact with him again. Then, by the end of the film, it is down to Elizabeth, and she doesnt seem to mind... and in the 2nd film we get to "lizzie".... a pet name you would only call someone you were extremely close to. Jack is always taking chances with her, seeing if he can take things a step furthur.

Well, he does in fact call her "Lizzie" when he is having the mar-ri-age conversation. Liz says, "I'm so ready to be married". Jack gets closer and says "You know" clears his throat "Lizzie. I am captain of a ship and being captain of a ship I could in fact perform a mar-ri-age right here, right on this deck, right now."

^^^^^

Aka: Lizzie, i can give you what you want, when you want it.... you wont ever have to wait around in a prison for me...

Katelovespirate I agree with you so much. Will didn't save her once! and yes its true about pirates being the ones that save her when she really needs it lol

And lovethemtigers I agree with you

The fact he came back for her is what made her realise JACK IS WHAT SHE WANTS..but she's still not willing to accept it. I dont see that ending as her saying to jack "NO! its never going to happen, not a chance in the future" its actually saying "NO!..I can't LET this happen..because there IS a chance in the future" If she was so confident that there was never a chance with Jack then there would be no need for her to "get rid of him". She's forcing herself to go with Will because her mind is still split between what she wants and what she thinks she SHOULD be wanting which is Will..chaining Jack up is basically saying "see he means nothing to you Liz, You're happy with Will" but thats obviously not the case..you can SEE that she's having a hard time making herself believe that during the actual scene AND afterwards..

Also the very fact that she agrees to go and get Jack back again shows us that what she did wasn't REALLY for the others at all. Getting Jack back again would STILL mean davy Jones coming after them.

Because Jack just showed her that he can save the day when they are in trouble.. To make herself feel less guilty she probably kept that at the back of her mind when she chained him up.. She might have been trying to persuade herself that Jack could pop straight up again..

Originally posted by katelovespirate
Speaking of Giddy, I AM getting giddy thinking about all this. SOOOO true all around. yay.
I love the marriage bit.... I think Liz is shocked he brought it up. She has never looked at him as the marrying kind (actually he probably hasnt looked at himself that way either...) and what he brings up as sort of a flirtatious joke he actually refuses to drop:
"Why not? We are very much alike you and I... I and you... US."
SO HOTT moment. One of my fav. lines from the film. I mean, this is Jack SParrow! In his mind, what starts out as a joke, suddenly makes sense to him. Why shouldnt they just get married? Heck, they are a lot alike, which Liz even ascertains after offering the perfunctory argument about hygeine or whatever, which Jack easily brushes aside, getting to heart of the matter.

Then, when they hit the island, and Jack agrees that everything he said to Liz was a lie, i think they both dont really care what he said about Will, but she is wondering if all his flirting was a lie. Now, typical Jack moment, he has just seen WIll and Liz kiss, is feeling jealous and surly, and so he gives her a little slap in the face with his yeah, it was pretty much all a lie.

But then of course, they both realize it wasnt a lie in the scene when Jack comes back to the pearl...

Wow this is great. The more we talk about this the more I truly believe we are picking up on what the Writers of this movie has intended. As said before, the general public that only watches it one time will never pick up on all the true meanings surrounding each scene.

You are so right...what starts out as a joke - he's like, wait a minute, maybe it's not such a bad idea.

Awesome.....I'm getting more and more excited about what lies ahead in Pirates 3.

OOOOOOOOHhhhh geeee..... ^^^^^ totally agree as usual.

If Disney doesnt get all this, that will be really dumb.

PS i was thinking about that hott scene (no i am not a sadist) when Will gets lashed, and it seems to me to bode similar happenings in the future. Like, his father gave him some pain to prevent someone else from giving him more pain.
So maybe in the next one, he will urge Will to drop Liz and give up piracy forever, giving him pain, but preventing others from giving him even more pain...

Originally posted by LovelyOne
Katelovespirate I agree with you so much. Will didn't save her once! and yes its true about pirates being the ones that save her when she really needs it lol

And lovethemtigers I agree with you

The fact he came back for her is what made her realise JACK IS WHAT SHE WANTS..but she's still not willing to accept it. I dont see that ending as her saying to jack "NO! its never going to happen, not a chance in the future" its actually saying "NO!..I can't LET this happen..because there IS a chance in the future" If she was so confident that there was never a chance with Jack then there would be no need for her to "get rid of him". She's forcing herself to go with Will because her mind is still split between what she wants and what she thinks she SHOULD be wanting which is Will..chaining Jack up is basically saying "see he means nothing to you Liz, You're happy with Will" but thats obviously not the case..you can SEE that she's having a hard time making herself believe that during the actual scene AND afterwards..

Also the very fact that she agrees to go and get Jack back again shows us that what she did wasn't REALLY for the others at all. Getting Jack back again would STILL mean davy Jones coming after them.

Because Jack just showed her that he can save the day when they are in trouble..I think Liz had a sort of feeling that Jack could pull it off again so she made him stay there in order to save her again.. She might have been thinking Jack would pop straight up again..


i think i am renaming the film "Beautiful complications".... LOL.... its like the more we uncover and hash out, the more there is to discuss. But there is this tangled feeling to all of it---- first we have this beautiful strong bond between Jack and Liz that has grown and developed, only checked by the boring old typical childhood sweetheart/fiance type thing.

I dont think Will would have ever turned even part-pirate if not for Liz. He grew up hating pirates and stood in the way what Jack wanted- (cough cough, as he does later) in the first one where he wont let him leave.
Liz always had the pirate fantasy and tried to make Will fit her fantasy... which he doesnt. But she tries to make it work anyways. Only it doesnt and it wont.

Liz has more faith in Jack than she even does in herself, IMO. And like you guys said earlier, "i have faith in both of you...." i agree that is secretly hoping to re-encounter Capn Jack. It makes her excited.

I love that Jack can read Lizzie like a book.

I edited my above post a bit

Yeh I agree about the lashing scene. It seemed as if it wasn't really needed..but its probably going to echo something else later on..most likely what you say^^ It might be where someone is trying to persuade Will to cut his heart out but his dad steps in and does something to stop it.

His father is a constant reminder of what can happen to you if you are a pirate..thats going to put Will off of the lifestyle for good...

^^^ we can only hope. LOL>

yeah i totally agree what you said about Liz trying to convince herself Jack would escape.

good thing his father is around. he is a very good excuse for liz and will not to be with each other.

Originally posted by katelovespirate
i think i am renaming the film "Beautiful complications".... LOL.... its like the more we uncover and hash out, the more there is to discuss. But there is this tangled feeling to all of it---- first we have this beautiful strong bond between Jack and Liz that has grown and developed, only checked by the boring old typical childhood sweetheart/fiance type thing.

I dont think Will would have ever turned even part-pirate if not for Liz. He grew up hating pirates and stood in the way what Jack wanted- (cough cough, as he does later) in the first one where he wont let him leave.
Liz always had the pirate fantasy and tried to make Will fit her fantasy... which he doesnt. But she tries to make it work anyways. Only it doesnt and it wont.

Liz has more faith in Jack than she even does in herself, IMO. And like you guys said earlier, "i have faith in both of you...." i agree that is secretly hoping to re-encounter Capn Jack. It makes her excited.

I love that Jack can read Lizzie like a book.

I agree with you there. You can see Will really hates the pirate lifestyle..its just not his bag. I mean he tries to do it but its obviously not enough for Liz. His dad says to him "the life of a pirate is not the life I want for you" and Will says something like "You had the choice not to do it too" So Will clearly dislikes the whole pirate lifestyle..he doesn't even get a thrill from it does he?..the only thrill he got from it was the fact that liz liked it. I cant see a relationship working where one person has to keep the other happy all the time by doing something they dont really want.

Liz - trying to be less piratey for Will

Will - reluctantly trying to be a pirate for Liz but just not enough of one

I cant see how that could continue for a long time.

I think that because they cant add in the "brother/sister" aspect like star wars..its going to be the "we are two different people" thing..

I can seriously see it in the next one. Will and Liz having an argument and realising that they are in no way right for eachother..but then the whole Will/Davy aspect could also be the thing that breaks them up.

It might just be Liz who realises it and leaves him..which would make the davy/will thing happen

^^^ yes totally.

building on all that, we can just compare Liz and Will to Liz and Jack.

What about Will interests Liz? the fact that he may be a pirate and was discovered lost at sea. pretty romantic and mysterious, but Will's interest ends there. In that scene in the first movie when Will drops off the sword, he wont even call he Elizabeth, when she is telling him to. She gets mad at him for being proper.

Jack? He calles her Elizabeth from the moment he meets her, something Will hasnt been able to do for 8 years. He isnt a little boy with stars in his eyes, he is a man who knows who he is. (which is pretty much exactly what Liz wants, she just doesnt know it yet .)

Liz doesnt want to be the one always leading in the relationship. She wants to get swept off her feet once in a while, to not know what is going to happen next. With Will its all extremely logical. By the time he finally gets around to telling her he likes her, he has already made it very difficult for her because she is engaged to Norrington (in some ways, his fault. if he had spoken sooner, she wouldnt have gotten engaged to n.) So they kiss, get engaged, and are going to get married and live happily ever after. thats it???! boring.

With Jack... who knows how things would go forward... it would be an adventure from day 1.

oh and PS: yeah, i can see Liz breaking it off before Will, since she always has to take charge and figure things out for him.

AND ANOTHER THING:

lets just call this what is it: and it is IVANHOE for PIRATES> In Ivanhoe, he picks the proper girl at the end, and regrets it forever. So please Disney, put Ivanhoe and Rebecca together this time around.

I agree with everything you are saying..cept the ivanhoe thing..I dont know whatthe heck you are talking about

and exactly..Liz depends on Jack when she needs it but Will just cant do it...poor old William.
Its true she seems to have thought he was a pirate and thats what was exciting to her..then we can see that he's not..once she gets the taste of the REAL pirate life she cant get enough of it.

What I also find interesting is in an interview Johnny said that each little trinket in his hair is a trinket from a really important moment in his life..Wouldnt it be so cute if Liz realises that he as put something in his dread locks that belongs to her?

yes. LOL>

The Ivanhoe thing: ivanhoe is this novel where this guy has this childhood sweetheart (rowena) and goes out and has all these adventures where he meets this beautiful forbidden Jewess (Rebecca) and they fall in love, and he saves her and she saves him multiple times, and they hang out with Robin Hood and other cool people, but then at the end Ivanhoe stays honorable and marries Rowena, and Rebecca leaves forever... Ivanhoe reminds me of Liz.
Anyways, i just thought it was a neat parallel, and hopefully this story will end with the right relationship. lol.

exaclty, Jack is the REAL pirate here.

There are going to be some INTENSE scenes in the next film... lots of emotional intensity going on. AHHHHH i cant wait!!!!

Like when Liz is wearing the medallion at the beginning of the 1st one--- thinking it is a trinket of Will's, but actually, thats all Jack Sparrow too. From the beginning that's who she wants.

Lizzy interupted his lifestyle and he interrupted hers--- that first day they met. They used each other, saved each other, and grew together. they have both tricked each other many times, but that doesnt seem to damage their friendship in the slightest. if anything, it makes it stronger.
If jack doesnt go with Lizzy, you get the feeling he will be single forever, because no one is as good for him as Lizzy. Same with her. they are SOOO ALIKE. Jack sees it. Liz sees it at the end of the 2nd one. I cant wait to see their reunion. seriously.

I totally agree with everything you say, Katelovespirates. It is so strange - I was just about to write something similar to your passage about comparing Liz/Jack to Liz/Will when I got back online and saw you beat me to it. I watched Pirates 1 last night. I was taking into consideration everything we've been discussing. I was thinking how proper Will is when, yes he's known her for 8 years and is suppose to be in love with her, but yet refuses to call her Elizabeth, insists on calling her Miss Swann. Not until she is out of ear-shot is he man enough to call her by her name. In Jack's scene it's funny - he calls her Elizabeth and she instantly tells him, "it's Miss Swann". HA.

You are so right about him not liking the pirate life. How about in Potc 1 when they are in the blacksmith shop. Will says, "I practice three hours a day so that when I meet a Pirate, I can kill it." "Ah" says Jack.
Will: "You threatened Miss Swann", Jack responds, "Only a Little."
Love that whole sword fighting scene. It was so entertaining and funny.

Toward the end in the cave, Will and Elizabeth are staring at each other and he reminds her that she should get back to her fiance, Commodore Norrington.....She gets huffy and leaves - Jack says, "If you were looking for the opportune moment, mate, that was it." Poor Will can't even woo said strumpet without getting advice from our dear Jack.

Yes, Poor Will does become more of man by the end of the movie, but pretty much everything he's learned about Pirating he has learned from Jack. But he doesn't want to be a Pirate. Like Katelovespirate points out, all the conversations between him and his Dad are based around not wanting to be a pirate. He's just too boring to be a real pirate.

Jack is very sexy in POTC 1 when he and Will are comandeering the Interceptor. The way he pulls that off just shows how smart he is - how clever. I love when Poor Will says, "here they come" and Jack is looking over his shoulder and gives that sexy smile- and of course he has the sexy coat on. Another very sexy shot of Johnny - when jack is in Prison and he smiles as he pulls the hat down over his forehead. Ooo-la-la.

In POTC 1, opening scene - When Elizabeth is holding the aztec gold and she sees the black pearl for the first time - this could also be a sign of her own destiny to come. Little does she know at that time how much of a role that ship is going to play in her adult life.

I pointed that discussion between Will and his dad out^^

...I think I did first anyway..



Oh yes those sexy shots of Jack..where he smiles in the prison...he seems to show a huge confidence..

Its seriously as if he feels that his possesions are what makes him more confident, like his hat, his rum and stuff..Seriously this encounter he has had with Liz has changed him quite alot he showed tremendous confidence when ever he was around her without his hat, (although she had it on) his compass..he was lost until he found her....he's beginning to let go of the material things in his life..and its as soon as Liz shows up in the second one.

Towards the end I think liz helped him realise that yeh, he puts on this mask that proves to himself that he's brave..but even without the mask he still came back for her and did something brave. So he's beginning to realise that theres more to life than material possesions..So there is a chance in the next that he will let someone in, closer to him more so than he did in this one.

I'm not making much sense lol..I'm really sleepy.

It seems as if Tia knew he needed something to cling onto to make himself feel safe in the latest one when he was in a state of worry (Jar of Dirt) its what his character is like..he feels like he needs something there to prove to him that everything is fine and dandy..Liz could be the long term answer to it..which I think the hat thing was symbolizing..he lost his beloved possesion that makes him feel confident..then along comes liz wearing it and his confidence returns to him. Liz is the answer Jack..its right in your face...quite literally...MORE than once

LOL i was just watching the moment when Barbossa comes back..do you think Liz looked as if she was secretly thinking "Jack?" as he was walking down the stairs

i know i was.....idunno but i thought it was gonna be jack

Same here^^

Katelovespirate you know the similarity thing with the first scene in Potc1 and what happened in the next movie..

I was just thinking of another thing. He says to her "I saved your life, You saved mine, now we are square" that could be hinting that in the next one..the fact that Liz comes back to get him out of purgatory means that they are "even" and that there are no hard feelings..and then of course "my lady"

Also Norrington in that whole scene could resemble Will in PotC2..He doesn't save her when she really needs it Jack does. He also cant protect her again when Jack takes her with the chains..meaning will cant get her back when Jack comes along..

The very first time Jack touches her...he frees her too. She's held down by the dress..he pulls it off..She cant breathe..he cuts of the corset and she can. In comparison with the second move..he cuts off all her ties to the old life..and she's finally free to breathe and do her own thing.

She also gets thrown back(once freed from all her clothes)..quite reluctantly into the arms of Norrington.

Originally posted by LovelyOne
Same here^^

Katelovespirate you know the similarity thing with the first scene in Potc1 and what happened in the next movie..

I was just thinking of another thing. He says to her "I saved your life, You saved mine, now we are square" that could be hinting that in the next one..the fact that Liz comes back to get him out of purgatory means that they are "even" and that there are no hard feelings..and then of course "my lady"

Also Norrington in that whole scene could resemble Will in PotC2..He doesn't save her when she really needs it Jack does. He also cant protect her again when Jack takes her with the chains..meaning will cant get her back when Jack comes along..

The very first time Jack touches her...he frees her too. She's held down by the dress..he pulls it off..She cant breathe..he cuts of the corset and she can. In comparison with the second move..he cuts off all her ties to the old life..and she's finally free to breathe and do her own thing.

She also gets thrown back(once freed from all her clothes)..quite reluctantly into the arms of Norrington.

thats seriously SOOOOOOO beautiful. So true. He frees her. He saves her by cutting off the restrictions around her.

You are so smart.

LOL I know..He just resembles freedom from the offset to her..I love how she cant take her eyes off of him in that scene. Everyone else is looking at Norrington speaking and she's just staring at Jack. The others do look at him but not as intensely as she does.

I think you and lovethemtigers are the best at finding things out lol..the only real thing I figured out was the hat thing..and I might be completely wrong with that

Oh and the Will/davy thing i kinda figured out...