Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

who takes this?

Interesting. Flash.

I would say stalemate. What can one do to the other?

where are the world famous KMC, debaters?

Flash by a mile. he goes back to his childhood (before puberty) and snaps his neck. game over.

Originally posted by Whittdawg92
Flash by a mile. he goes back to his childhood (before puberty) and snaps his neck. game over. thats a cop out, dude you can do better...

fine, flash speed blitzes him before he can even try to "Ice up"

Originally posted by Whittdawg92
fine, flash speed blitzes him before he can even try to "Ice up" thats better..

Too bad it says "ICE" man instead of Bobby Drake

therefore for the purpose of this thread he is already "ICED" up

Originally posted by Blair Wind


Too bad it says "ICE" man instead of Bobby Drake

therefore for the purpose of this thread he is already "ICED" up

Then shouldnt the thread say he starts iced up before

it isnt even stated in this thread that hes an omega.

Originally posted by bigbran
it isnt even stated in this thread that hes an omega.

Iceman is always an Omega.

There was some uncertainty after House of M, but nope, he's still Omega level.

so classic iceman was an omega too.

Omega determines their potential. Iceman was an omega mutant from birth, even before his abilities manifested. Depending upon when during development the mutant gene develops, he was an omega mutant at some point between his conception, and birth.

Flash, this is an easy win.

Originally posted by Soljer
Omega determines their potential. Iceman was an omega mutant from birth, even before his abilities manifested. Depending upon when during development the mutant gene develops, he was an omega mutant at some point between his conception, and birth.

Technicly Iceman isnt anywhere near his potential

Flash.

people give iceman way too much credit for things he's able to do, but never does. he has POTENTIAL to do things, but doesn't mean he can. Flash for the win.

Originally posted by Whittdawg92
people give iceman way too much credit for things he's able to do, but never does. he has POTENTIAL to do things, but doesn't mean he can. Flash for the win.

Everything we claim he can do, he HAS done. Check the iceman respect thread for examples of spreading his consciousness everywhere, freezing molecules down to null kinetic energy, moisture inversion, and travelling through water faster than sound.

ehhh...no. if you ever see him in a fight, he rarely pulls off feats like that regularly. jus cuz he CAN do it doesn't mean he will.

ehhh yes. He HAS done them. So disqualifying them because you dont like it and because he is written like an idiot five seconds after he gains "understanding" doesnt mean he CANT do them.

like arguing with a brick wall. w/e I dont' care anymore.

co-sign........In all reality this battle should be a stalemate, with the odds leaning more heavily on Iceman

Originally posted by Whittdawg92
like arguing with a brick wall. w/e I dont' care anymore.

Thats what me and Soljer say

Flash dumps him in the Speed Force.

As soon as Flash grabs him, Iceman is instantly protected by an invisible layer of energy provided by the SF. It protects its user from his/her environment when moving at extreme speeds. Basically, a bubble around Iceman. Meaning, that Iceman couldn't just leave his body and spread his consciousness elsewhere. And ESPECIALLY in drastically miniscule amount of time he'll even have to do such a thing. Before he realizes it, he would already be in the Speed Force. Stuck.

Flash for the win.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Flash dumps him in the Speed Force.

As soon as Flash grabs him, Iceman is instantly protected by an invisible layer of energy provided by the SF. It protects its user from his/her environment when moving at extreme speeds. Basically, a bubble around Iceman. Meaning, that Iceman couldn't just leave his body and spread his consciousness elsewhere. And ESPECIALLY in drastically miniscule amount of time he'll even have to do such a thing. Before he realizes it, he would already be in the Speed Force. Stuck.

Flash for the win.

Problem is, we don't know EXACTLY how the speedforce works. Or at least I don't. Enlighten me: has it ever held a consciousness prisoner?

I mean, stopping something from affecting the environment is cool, however, Iceman can...kinda 'teleport' out of it. He doesn't have to pass through it, or travel through it. He can just instantly move to some other water on the planet.

Though I don't know if he is fast enough, considering the Flash's speed. If we assume that Iceman even has the opportunity for a single THOUGHT throughout the entire fight, I think the odds are in his favor.

It is assumed that both combatants have a basic knowledge of their competition, a smart iceman would, almost certainly, not want to be in a physically manipulatable form.

That's assuming he doesn't even START out in a favorable form. Why does he HAVE to be starting in a 'construct' of ice. Why not just start in his vapor form? Or his dispersed form? Hm....

Either way, if he has to start in a physical form, and has no time for a single, simple, thought, then flash wins.

However, if he can start in a favorable position, OR has time for one thought, then I see the odds in Iceman's favor.

Did you know Flash doesn't even require a physical form? Flash can transform into a being entirely comprised of Speed Force energy.

Here's a quick win:

Flash states the Speed Formula. Time freezes. Iceman is time-frozen lump of gas. Flash kills each molecule one by one per picosecond.

Iceman cannot win against a fully non PIS/CIS equipped Flash. He's just got to many damn powers. Hell, the guy even make vibrational contructs made of hyperdimensional gels....

Originally posted by Draco69
Did you know Flash doesn't even require a physical form? Flash can transform into a being entirely comprised of Speed Force energy.

Here's a quick win:

Flash states the Speed Formula. Time freezes. Iceman is time-frozen lump of gas. Flash kills each molecule one by one per picosecond.

Iceman cannot win against a fully non PIS/CIS equipped Flash. He's just got to many damn powers. Hell, the guy even make vibrational contructs made of hyperdimensional gels....

Thank you. I've been waiting for some other Flash fan with in-depth knowledge to help me out here.

Originally posted by Soljer
Problem is, we don't know EXACTLY how the speedforce works. Or at least I don't. Enlighten me: has it ever held a consciousness prisoner?

I mean, stopping something from affecting the environment is cool, however, Iceman can...kinda 'teleport' out of it. He doesn't have to pass through it, or travel through it. He can just instantly move to some other water on the planet.

Though I don't know if he is fast enough, considering the Flash's speed. If we assume that Iceman even has the opportunity for a single THOUGHT throughout the entire fight, I think the odds are in his favor.

It is assumed that both combatants have a basic knowledge of their competition, a smart iceman would, almost certainly, not want to be in a physically manipulatable form.

That's assuming he doesn't even START out in a favorable form. Why does he HAVE to be starting in a 'construct' of ice. Why not just start in his vapor form? Or his dispersed form? Hm....

Either way, if he has to start in a physical form, and has no time for a single, simple, thought, then flash wins.

However, if he can start in a favorable position, OR has time for one thought, then I see the odds in Iceman's favor.

So now Iceman gets prep? Already being in another form different from his usual starting form (without the thread-starter's say-so) is considered prep.

Anyway. Iceman can't just teleport his consciousness without any sort of water between his path. The reason he can do it through air is because moisture is in the air. Ambient moisture. If he is cut off from ambient moisture, he has no means of transporting his consciousness.

Originally posted by Draco69
Did you know Flash doesn't even require a physical form? Flash can transform into a being entirely comprised of Speed Force energy.

Here's a quick win:

Flash states the Speed Formula. Time freezes. Iceman is time-frozen lump of gas. Flash kills each molecule one by one per picosecond.

Iceman cannot win against a fully non PIS/CIS equipped Flash. He's just got to many damn powers. Hell, the guy even make vibrational contructs made of hyperdimensional gels....

Shhhh, you are inhibiting my ability to effectively debate. :-P.

Is iceman not allowed to do ANYTHING while the Flash is stating the speed formula? I know flash could even SPEAK at incredible speeds, but still. All it takes is a whim, and Iceman exists everywhere.

The Flash would then have to destroy every molecule of water in the WORLD (and you never mentioned how the Flash will destroy matter...unless you just mean speed force dumps. Can the flash somehow generate anti-matter now? Matter can't be created or destroyed, after all....), including the molecules residing inside the Flash's own body (Yeah, he could just turn to energy, no more water, fine), and all the water in the innocent human's bodies, AND the water inside all of his loved ones' bodies. If flash was blood lusted, and willing to do ANYTHING, then yeah....he would be able to dump every single molecule of water, and every single person into the speed force.

But, following this, the entire world is destroyed, having no more water in the atmosphere, or in the biosphere. The earth is dead. Not a single human remains alive, and even if the Flash could be sustained by speed force energy, he is going to live a sad life till he dies.

:-P.

Seriously, though, I'm gonna admit it; I'm really reaching. I doubt this strategy would work, as I believe that the Flash is too fast for it to. Meh. Not going to stop me from at least trying.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
So now Iceman gets prep? Already being in another form different from his usual starting form (without the thread-starter's say-so) is considered prep.

Anyway. Iceman can't just teleport his consciousness without any sort of water between his path. The reason he can do it through air is because moisture is in the air. Ambient moisture. If he is cut off from ambient moisture, he has no means of transporting his consciousness.

It's because of ambient moisture? Or so you assume. Got a scan saying that?

Anyways, read my above post. I'm reaching, and I know it. You know it. Draco knows it. Regardless, debating is fun, interesting, and it isn't going to stop me from TRYING to present an argument. I often debate for the under-dog.

Originally posted by Soljer
It's because of ambient moisture? Or so you assume. Got a scan saying that?

Anyways, read my above post. I'm reaching, and I know it. You know it. Draco knows it. Regardless, debating is fun, interesting, and it isn't going to stop me from TRYING to present an argument. I often debate for the under-dog.

Woah, I think we may have gotten the wrong impressions here. I'm not angry or anything like that. If I come off as a dick at times, I'm really not trying. I greatly enjoy debating and I very much enjoy debating with people like you, people who know what they're talking about and explain their points thoroughly.

I don't have a scan saying it. But think about it? If he didn't need moisture to transport his consciousness, why did he need to use a river to travel some vast distance (I forgot exactly where he was going, but it was far away)? If he didn't need moisture in contact with other moisture in order to teleport, then he wouldn't have needed he river. Know what I'm saying?

And I usually go for the underdog, too.

I didn't mean to seem like I was offended, I didn't think your posts came off as angry, or dickish. Don't sweat it, man.

Anywho, maybe he does need ambient moisture, but maybe not. He may need a river to travel a vast distance, because he doesn't have automatic cosmic awareness of all moisture in the universe. However, perhaps if something is in the line of sight, it would be trivial to just make himself....be that moisture. We can't really be for certain, though...so I guess me arguing the point has no basis, .

Damn.

.

Originally posted by Soljer
I didn't mean to seem like I was offended, I didn't think your posts came off as angry, or dickish. Don't sweat it, man.

Anywho, maybe he does need ambient moisture, but maybe not. He may need a river to travel a vast distance, because he doesn't have automatic cosmic awareness of all moisture in the universe. However, perhaps if something is in the line of sight, it would be trivial to just make himself....be that moisture. We can't really be for certain, though...so I guess me arguing the point has no basis, .

Damn.

.



I just hope you're understanding what I mean is all.

It's kinda like a trail of gunpowder. The spark needs to get from one side of the trail to the end of it. It can't just jump over the gunpowder, but rather it has to travel through it in order to reach its destination. Even if it's just the tiniest amount, as long all of it is touching.

Poor analogy I know, but it was the best I could come up with on such short notice.

Yes, I know EXACTLY what you mean. You are arguing he needs a medium to travel through, much like sound.

However, I am arguing that 'magical' mutant powers (magical by our standards, not comic standards) may not necessarily follow perfect logic, and may NOT need a medium. Obviously, though, it's kinda like nightcrawler. If he doesn't know exactly where a piece of moisture is, he can't 'teleport' there. But, if some is in the line of sight, it is trivial to do so.

Originally posted by Draco69
Did you know Flash doesn't even require a physical form? Flash can transform into a being entirely comprised of Speed Force energy.

Here's a quick win:

Flash states the Speed Formula. Time freezes. Iceman is time-frozen lump of gas. Flash kills each molecule one by one per picosecond.

Iceman cannot win against a fully non PIS/CIS equipped Flash. He's just got to many damn powers. Hell, the guy even make vibrational contructs made of hyperdimensional gels....

Iceman doesnt require a physical form either.

If Flash states the speed formula to where time stops for him, how does he kill every molecule one by one? Why is Iceman now a lump of gas? Im confused.

Just as Flash fully non PIS'd/CIS'd out, Bobby can do many things as well. He can create dupes of himself to fight Wally while his conscious is elsewhere(Like Black Tom's tree from). Bobby can also actually effect the flow of Wallys blood. Flash may have limited control over his blood level as well, but i dont think it would override Bobby's control.

In this fight, after Flash destroys Icemans form which would most likely happen, Flash isnt aware of Bobbys abilities while shatered and would be open of a counter attack.

Originally posted by jrodslam
Iceman doesnt require a physical form either.

Somehow a physical form entirely comprised of Speed Force energy just rings as more dangerous.

Originally posted by jrodslam
If Flash states the speed formula to where time stops for him, how does he kill every molecule one by one? Why is Iceman now a lump of gas? Im confused.

Vibrational explosions. It's basically a wave of vibrations that rips molecules apart. He can also alter the molecular frequency of Bobby's molecular form causing it to literally fall apart into sparse atoms. Firestorm isn't the only one who can alter matter.

Originally posted by jrodslam
Just as Flash fully non PIS'd/CIS'd out, Bobby can do many things as well.

Yeah. But while Bobby is limited to his abilities over water, a truely all-out Flash is much more damn powerful and has gajillion amount of powers that don't make sense, either has the word "Force" or "vibrations" in it and breaks every law of physics there is...

Originally posted by jrodslam
He can create dupes of himself to fight Wally while his conscious is elsewhere(Like Black Tom's tree from).

Flash will destroy them all in the first picosecond...


Originally posted by jrodslam
Bobby can also actually effect the flow of Wallys blood. Flash may have limited control over his blood level as well, but i dont think it would override Bobby's control.

Again, you're assuming that Flash will slow down enough for Bobby to do anything to Flash much less control his blood flow. THINK. How is Bobby gonna know where the Flash is? Flash will literally be invisible. Bobby won't know what the hell is hitting him or destroying his dupes. Flash's bodily functions are all moving at the same speed he runs. That's lightspeed heartbeats and lightspeed blood flow.

Bobby won't be able to stop Flash's blood flow because:

A) Flash is too damn fast. He'll be Tahiti, China, Japan and Iceland. At the same time.

B) Bobby can't think faster than the Flash. The thought of controlling Flash's blood will take as long as the extended versions of the LOTRS back to back to the Flash.

C) You can't freeze something moving at lightspeed. His mass will be intolerable...

Originally posted by jrodslam
In this fight, after Flash destroys Icemans form which would most likely happen,

In the first picosecond of a picosecond...

Originally posted by jrodslam
Flash isnt aware of Bobbys abilities while shatered and would be open of a counter attack.

Common knowledge rule.

Flash isn't allowed to know that Iceman can do but you also think Bobby can perceive a living ray of light moving around the planet. Or when time is frozen?

Nope.

Originally posted by Draco69
Somehow a physical form entirely comprised of Speed Force energy just rings as more dangerous.



Vibrational explosions. It's basically a wave of vibrations that rips molecules apart. He can also alter the molecular frequency of Bobby's molecular form causing it to literally fall apart into sparse atoms. Firestorm isn't the only one who can alter matter.



Yeah. But while Bobby is limited to his abilities over water, a truely all-out Flash is much more damn powerful and has gajillion amount of powers that don't make sense, either has the word "Force" or "vibrations" in it and breaks every law of physics there is...



Flash will destroy them all in the first picosecond...




Again, you're assuming that Flash will slow down enough for Bobby to do anything to Flash much less control his blood flow. THINK. How is Bobby gonna know where the Flash is? Flash will literally be invisible. Bobby won't know what the hell is hitting him or destroying his dupes. Flash's bodily functions are all moving at the same speed he runs. That's lightspeed heartbeats and lightspeed blood flow.

Bobby won't be able to stop Flash's blood flow because:

A) Flash is too damn fast. He'll be Tahiti, China, Japan and Iceland. At the same time.

B) Bobby can't think faster than the Flash. The thought of controlling Flash's blood will take as long as the extended versions of the LOTRS back to back to the Flash.

C) You can't freeze something moving at lightspeed. His mass will be intolerable...



In the first picosecond of a picosecond...



Common knowledge rule.

Flash isn't allowed to know that Iceman can do but you also think Bobby can perceive a living ray of light moving around the planet. Or when time is frozen?

Nope.

Dammnit, Draco. Where have you been?

Could you go ahead and post that again the Flash/Aquaman vs. Iceman/Storm thread?

Originally posted by Draco69
Somehow a physical form entirely comprised of Speed Force energy just rings as more dangerous.

A physical form of energy seems more dangerous than a non-physical form whos conscious can be anywhere in the air even at other distant locations? To each their own i guess.

Originally posted by Draco69
Vibrational explosions. It's basically a wave of vibrations that rips molecules apart. He can also alter the molecular frequency of Bobby's molecular form causing it to literally fall apart into sparse atoms. Firestorm isn't the only one who can alter matter.

Bobby was once disintegrated and reforemed back. Who has Flash made fall apart into atoms? Icemans body can be totaly destroyed but Flash cannot effect his mind.

Originally posted by Draco69
Flash will destroy them all in the first picosecond...

And they get formed instantly. Something Flash has trouble keeping up with unless he gets a running start or help.

Originally posted by Draco69
Again, you're assuming that Flash will slow down enough for Bobby to do anything to Flash much less control his blood flow. THINK. How is Bobby gonna know where the Flash is? Flash will literally be invisible. Bobby won't know what the hell is hitting him or destroying his dupes. Flash's bodily functions are all moving at the same speed he runs. That's lightspeed heartbeats and lightspeed blood flow.

Bobby won't be able to stop Flash's blood flow because:

A) Flash is too damn fast. He'll be Tahiti, China, Japan and Iceland. At the same time.

B) Bobby can't think faster than the Flash. The thought of controlling Flash's blood will take as long as the extended versions of the LOTRS back to back to the Flash.

C) You can't freeze something moving at lightspeed. His mass will be intolerable...

Flash would slow doen considering hed think the fight was over after the firsat shater. Its a highly probable fact unstead of an assumption. Why would Flash be invisible after he thinks hes defeated his foe? Youre assuming Flash will continue to run around and be a blur which isnt likely. Flash saying Quick formula and going lightspeed isnt in character for him at the beginning of a fight. Especially against a non-speedster.

A.) Flash would be in Tahiti, China, Japan and Iceland at the same time doing what? Hes not fighting, so it that self battle field removal? Are you saying that between each punch hes going to another country to get ready to throw another and hed be to fast for Iceman to even form an attack? Since when does Flash move at lightspeed instantly?

B.) Bobby freezing Flash's bloodflow doesnt take much concentration. All thats applied is the intensity of the cold. He slowly froze it in Emmas brain to get the answers he wanted from her. She didnt even sense it coming from him. If Iceman want s FLash laid out, it would be flash-freezed which is much quicker than what he didn to Emma.

C.) True you probably couldnt freeze something moving at lightspeed. Although IF Flash is moving that fast he risks going into the speedforce and being trapped there. And once again, the initial hit and after the initial hit, you make it seem as if Flash is still running at 99.9% the speed of light? Thats certainly not the case unless he says Quicks formula which would probably take as much time as a flash-freeze.

Originally posted by Draco69
In the first picosecond of a picosecond...

And then what? Flash freeze. Shattering Bobby's form isnt the end of the fight.

Originally posted by Draco69
Common knowledge rule.

Flash isn't allowed to know that Iceman can do but you also think Bobby can perceive a living ray of light moving around the planet. Or when time is frozen?

Nope.

Yes common knowledge rule, but they are also fighting in character without PIC/CIS i assume.

Im not saying Bobby can percieve a living ray of light moving around the planet, but do you think Flash is starting the fight as a living ray of light that runs around the planet to make a first attack? Naw. Flash-freeze appears to be instant as well ya know.

so whos winning?

Originally posted by JOE NUNEZ
so whos winning?

Well, Iceman WAS, till Draco had to bring all those damn 'FACTS' into play. That dick.

Anyways, now its a toss up. Ask Jrodslam who wins, and you'll get a different answer from if you ask Draco.

flash ftw

Originally posted by jrodslam
A physical form of energy seems more dangerous than a non-physical form whos conscious can be anywhere in the air even at other distant locations? To each their own i guess.

A form of energy that's one and the same with the source of all motion in the DCU. When morphing into his Speed Force form, he IS the Speed Force. He's one with all kinetic energy and any form of motion in the DCU. Anything from an eyeblink to a chemical reaction to the rotation of an electron around an atom.

So yes, I consider a being who can quite literally morph into a law of physic regarding kinetics and motion more dangerous and much more powerful than a being who can control moisture....


Originally posted by jrodslam
Bobby was once disintegrated and reforemed back.

And Flash'll keep destroying the SOB until he gives up. Flash is the ultimate in patience. A man who can think at lightspeed as an average day of 5 years. Things take forever to him to happen unless he concentrates to slow down his perception.

Once he had to crack 19-digit alpha/numerical computer code, he spent roughly months (in his perception) to crack it. He's got all the time in the world.

Originally posted by jrodslam
Who has Flash made fall apart into atoms?


Post-Crisis Anti-Monitor. Dr. Alchemy. The Strange One. Etc.


Originally posted by jrodslam
Icemans body can be totaly destroyed but Flash cannot effect his mind.

Originally posted by jrodslam
And they get formed instantly.

Oh yes. I forgot. According to you, Iceman also has lightspeed perceptions and can think faster than Flash. NOT.

The picosecond it takes to destroy the dupes...Iceman will not realize it's been destroyed. Cause ya know, he's still has human reflexes and all...

Originally posted by jrodslam
Something Flash has trouble keeping up with unless he gets a running start or help.

I'm sorry, did you say the Flash, a man who's walking pace is Mach 15 would have a difficult time keeping with Iceman, a being with human reflexes...?


Originally posted by jrodslam
Flash would slow doen considering hed think the fight was over after the firsat shater.

This is a probable assumption...if you want to completely ignore the forum rules. Iceman is allowed to know about Flash's superspeed tricks...but Flash isn't allowed to know that Iceman can be a disembodied consciousness? Huh?

Flash will be well aware that the battle is not over (You said, Iceman would likely create multiple dupes...don'tcha think that Flash would be smart enough to realize that maybe Iceman can just reform another dupe...?)

Originally posted by jrodslam
Its a highly probable fact unstead of an assumption. Why would Flash be invisible after he thinks hes defeated his foe? Youre assuming Flash will continue to run around and be a blur which isnt likely.

Hardly. You're purposely giving Iceman god-like intelligence and some sort of deeping cunning I've never seen displayed in his character while Flash is dumbass who's just gonna punch everything he sees...

Riiiight.

I got news for you. Flash is much, much, much smarter than Iceman with his powers than Iceman is of HIS powers.

Iceman's inability to use his powers correctly is not a result of PIS or CIS (this refers to a case where a character KNOWINGLY performs stupid acts because of some moral code or rule he abides by; i.e. Superman and his lack of superspeed). He's just not that bright enough to use it that way. I've heard ridiculous theories that Iceman will cunningly freeze the ozone layer and some nonsense or infiltrate the Speed Force (not possible...) and...um freeze it. Flash has displayed the ability to his powers on high end feats smartly and creatively. Iceman? With the exception of less than a dozen feats, most them in a alternate timeline in another dimension, Iceman hasn't displayed to be A) smart enough or B) creative enough to use his powers as described. In fact he has no indication he IS that smart to use it that way. Blairwind and you certainly are. But Iceman. Nope. He's still gonna throw icebeams and surf around....


Originally posted by jrodslam
Flash saying Quick formula and going lightspeed isnt in character for him at the beginning of a fight. Especially against a non-speedster.

And Iceman becoming one with all moisture on Earth is? Or transforming into a fog of ice shards?

Please curb the bias. Everything you've described previously and below is COMPLETELY out of character for Iceman.

What's in character for Iceman? Iceslides and Icebeams. And the occassional snowball. That's it.


Originally posted by jrodslam
Flash would be in Tahiti, China, Japan and Iceland at the same time doing what? Hes not fighting, so it that self battle field removal?

It's merely an analogy to prove my point that Iceman cannot perceive the Flash. Much less attack him...


Originally posted by jrodslam
Are you saying that between each punch hes going to another country to get ready to throw another and hed be to fast for Iceman to even form an attack?

Actually, that's happened...against Colbalt Blue (twin brother of Barry Allen.) Granted it was a couple of countries over but it happened nonetheless...


Originally posted by jrodslam
Since when does Flash move at lightspeed instantly?

Since Mark Waid started writing his book. Again, you don't understand Flash's powers. He has LITERALLY no limit to his speed. He can be as damn fast as he wants to be provided channels the Speed Force. Which doesn't take long, in fact most of his comics if you read them show the Flash doing impossible things while everyone else in the world is frozen. Like when he outran Death to the end of time.

Originally posted by jrodslam
Bobby freezing Flash's bloodflow doesnt take much concentration.

Once again, you seem to just ignore that fact that:

A) Flash will be moving too damn fast to perceive much less concentrate on. Iceman's concentration to launch an attack is equivalent to a day to the Flash.

B) Iceman cannot think faster than the Flash. Let's say in a far-off happyland, Iceman manages to start to freeze Flash's blood. There are several reasons why it wouldn't work:

1) His metabolism and bodily functions are at superspeed to. Can Iceman freeze a normal person's blood? Yep. Can he freeze the bloodflow of a person that moves at the speed of sound? No. It would be like trying to freeze a tsunami with the mass of a small moon with an icecube during the 1978 heatwave. Captain Cold once shot the Flash pointblank at his face. The icegun can freeze anything it touches to absolute ZERO. And it did. His face, his skull, his brain and his blood. Did it last? Nope. One panel later, the ice shattered and melted and the Flash put on his Flash costume to kick some ass.

2) Flash as stated above as foe that squarely shows that freezing in any at all forms does not work AT ALL on the Flash for less than second. His metabolism just melts the ice. His connection to the Speed Force causes his bodily molecules to generate hyperkinectivity, speeding up his cells to the point where it is impossible to freeze him. Or his Speed Force armour (his costume is actually an armour) simply prevents it from happening.

Originally posted by jrodslam
All thats applied is the intensity of the cold.

Cold. Flash can run in space unprotected as shown in the Imperiux saga AND he regularly gets shot with a icegun projecting absolute zero temperatures. Flash never gets cold...

Originally posted by jrodslam
He slowly froze it in Emmas brain to get the answers he wanted from her. She didnt even sense it coming from him.

Yep. A mutant with normal human perceptions without access to a source of power that pretty much nullifies any temperature attacks is an excellent example....

Originally posted by jrodslam
If Iceman want s FLash laid out, it would be flash-freezed which is much quicker than what he didn to Emma.

I'm sorry. You did it again. Did you just say that Iceman will attack the Flash before the Flash can even realize he's being attacked? And did you just say Iceman's "flash" (Hah!) freeze is so instanteneous that the Flash won't perceive it coming much less out run it? Did you also say that Iceman will somehow pinpoint where the speed demon is? And finally, no you did not just say that any sort of freezing attack will work on the Flash when Captain Cold and the the DC1million Captain Cold have all tried and failed...?

Originally posted by jrodslam
True you probably couldnt freeze something moving at lightspeed.

And this should tell you something....


Originally posted by jrodslam
Although IF Flash is moving that fast he risks going into the speedforce and being trapped there.

What is this? 1994? That's. Not. True. Anymore. Wally got over that at the end of Waid's run. Your info's outdated by at least 10 years...


Originally posted by jrodslam
And once again, the initial hit and after the initial hit, you make it seem as if Flash is still running at 99.9% the speed of light?

And why not? What? Is the first blow going to be so exhausting that he'll suddenly go as fast as an Asian grandmother?

Originally posted by jrodslam
Thats certainly not the case unless he says Quicks formula which would probably take as much time as a flash-freeze.

......Okay. THINK. Iceman (somehow by a miracle) has to get an idea where Flash is. Than he has to concentrate his powers to unleash the attack. Than he actually has to go through with the attack.

Flash? The Speed Formula is a seven-syllable word. You REALLY believe that a man who can think, react and TALK at lightspeed will take as much time as Iceman takes to concentrate to say a seven-syllable word? NO. Everytime he's said the equation, everybody else around him except his foe and his allies were stock-stone statues. The time it will take to say the damn equation is so fast it's literally unquiantifiable....

Originally posted by jrodslam
And then what? Flash freeze. Shattering Bobby's form isnt the end of the fight.


Freezing Wally isn't the end of the battle either...

He's been frozen or attempted to be frozen since he was a teenager. He's been popsicled more than any other comic book character in comics.

How can Flash destroy or at least disperse Iceman.

Simple. He states the Speed Formula. Time freezes. He uses his molecular control powers via Speed Force vibrational techniques to attune his eyesight to perceive water molecules (he uses this power regularly against Dr. Alchemy) and disrupts their molecular structure until collapses. Or he can just kinetic bomb everything until molecule is destroyed (air isn't required; he can breath when time is frozen right?) Iceman will likely die? Why. Well, when Iceman inhabits a body of water or moisture, he resides in that said body. What if every water molecule i the are he resides in his instantly destroyed? Poor Bobby is a consciousness without a body, and that usually means he's dead....

Or he can just absorb the kinetic energy of the entire planet again and make all molecular motion freeze. Bobby can't manipulate water moleclues if the water molecules are as good as rocks...


Originally posted by jrodslam
Yes common knowledge rule, but they are also fighting in character without PIC/CIS i assume.

Yes, because Iceman becomes one with all moisture and flashfreezes people's bloodflow is so in character for him....

In character Iceman is going to lose this fight very badly, if you want to go by "in character" Iceslides and icebeams. That's it...


Originally posted by jrodslam
Im not saying Bobby can percieve a living ray of light moving around the planet, but do you think Flash is starting the fight as a living ray of light that runs around the planet to make a first attack?

For the benefit of a doubt, let's say no. Let's say a bloodlusted Flash is going pretty damn near the speed of light instanteneously. You're kidding yourself. You're more or less saying that Flash will attack first...but Iceman will attack right after and actually manage to hit the Flash. Bull. He couldn't react that fast even if Wally was going at Mach 10...

Accleration with the Flash is not 0 to 60 in five seconds like you would have us believe...

Originally posted by jrodslam
Naw. Flash-freeze appears to be instant as well ya know.


Iceman's freeze attacks are faster than the Flash or nearly as fast.

"Naw."

Originally posted by Soljer
Well, Iceman WAS, till Draco had to bring all those damn 'FACTS' into play. That dick.

Anyways, now its a toss up. Ask Jrodslam who wins, and you'll get a different answer from if you ask Draco.

It's not a tossup if you REALLY think about it.

Logically.

LOGICALLY, I said!

Good.

Now who wins?

Seriously though, Flash is just on another level altogether. I think he could beat Silver Surfer if he tried hard enough

I mean:

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/3456/flashv2136238nl.jpg


http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/2307/flash138p173ex.jpg

http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/9849/flash138p186lh.jpg

Flash was literally on one side of the galaxy, RAN back to Earth, set up the frequency all around the world, circling the globe a million times and BEAT A BEING WHO CAN TELEPORT INSTANTENEOUSLY. Insanteneouly. Hell, the Cosmic Gambler had ALREADY teleported when Flash began to run....

I mean, Jesus!

Originally posted by Draco69
It's not a tossup if you REALLY think about it.

Logically.

LOGICALLY, I said!

Good.

Now who wins?


Insulting me with an implication that I do not think of things from a logical standpoint isn't going to get you anywhere, friend. If you couldn't read the humor in my print, I was joking. I was pretending to be bitter about it, because I root for the under dog. Calm yourself, jesus.

Originally posted by Soljer
Insulting me with an implication that I do not think of things from a logical standpoint isn't going to get you anywhere, friend. If you couldn't read the humor in my print, I was joking. I was pretending to be bitter about it, because I root for the under dog. Calm yourself, jesus.

Actually, I was referring to everyone. More specifically Jrodslam. Kinda like addressing the audience but really addressing that kid who won't stop fake farting in the audience, ya know?

Sorry if I offended you!

Originally posted by Draco69
Actually, I was referring to everyone. More specifically Jrodslam. Kinda like addressing the audience but really addressing that kid who won't stop fake farting in the audience, ya know?

Sorry if I offended you!

Oh...heh...
Sorry, I seem to have over-reacted.

Heh....my bad! .

I feel like a complete idiot now, .

No hard feelings, Draco!

I agree with ya Draco....Im with Soljer in that Im rooting for the underdog and the only way I can see him winning is through a cop out:

almost no one knows that Iceman can moiusture inversion himself. Therefore its not common knowledge therefore Flash wouldnt know about it at the start of the fight. He punches, shatters and stops.

after that I have no idea what could happen

damn, i read some of this shit, and y'all just went nuts with the long ass posts.

cant Flash go back in time, and kill Icemans mother..

Originally posted by JOE NUNEZ
cant Flash go back in time, and kill Icemans mother.. I'm pretty sure that wouldn't kill Bobby.As strange as it sounds this has happened to Iceman before.Way back in the 1st Iceman limited series an Abtsract called Oblivion sent his minions back in time to kill Bobby's parents and actually killed his father and he somehow lived through it only to come back and kick Oblivions asseek.Oblivion by the way is to Death as Infinity is to Eternity.

Originally posted by Draco69
A form of energy that's one and the same with the source of all motion in the DCU. When morphing into his Speed Force form, he IS the Speed Force. He's one with all kinetic energy and any form of motion in the DCU. Anything from an eyeblink to a chemical reaction to the rotation of an electron around an atom.

Sounds cool. Where was this stated?

Originally posted by Draco69
And Flash'll keep destroying the SOB until he gives up. Flash is the ultimate in patience. A man who can think at lightspeed as an average day of 5 years. Things take forever to him to happen unless he concentrates to slow down his perception.

Indeed Flash could keep destroying the decoys. Iceman may not even reform or make a decoy right away. He may wait for Flash to stop and take the moisture from within Flash. Flash's patience goes both ways. Yes things dont move at a fast enough pace for him, but then again he also hates it. As patient as he is at times, hes also quick to get impatient and wrecless.

Originally posted by Draco69
Post-Crisis Anti-Monitor. Dr. Alchemy. The Strange One. Etc.

Id like to see those. Sounds interesting. Scans?

Originally posted by Draco69
Oh yes. I forgot. According to you, Iceman also has lightspeed perceptions and can think faster than Flash. NOT. The picosecond it takes to destroy the dupes...Iceman will not realize it's been destroyed. Cause ya know, he's still has human reflexes and all...

According to me, Iceman has lightspeed perceptions? I never stated that or implied it. Dont put words in my mouth. I merely stated that when Iceman makes his clones, its instant. Its not the typical sculpting most would be used to. When he flash-freezes, it happens with a blink of an eye. I also stated that in the past Flash has had issues adapting to something that moves instantly or almost instantly. It seems that according to you, Flash starts off a fight moving at 99% lightspeed. I never denied Flash is a slow thinker nor have i implied Bobby thinks faster.

Originally posted by Draco69
I'm sorry, did you say the Flash, a man who's walking pace is Mach 15 would have a difficult time keeping with Iceman, a being with human reflexes...?

Read above. Iceman flash-freezing something will indeed throw Flash off balance. Especially considering theres not much Iceman has to do to apply a flash-freeze.

Originally posted by Draco69
This is a probable assumption...if you want to completely ignore the forum rules. Iceman is allowed to know about Flash's superspeed tricks...but Flash isn't allowed to know that Iceman can be a disembodied consciousness? Huh? Flash will be well aware that the battle is not over (You said, Iceman would likely create multiple dupes...don'tcha think that Flash would be smart enough to realize that maybe Iceman can just reform another dupe..?)

I never stated Iceman would know about Flash's superspeed tricks while Flash knows nothing about Icemans abilities.

After the intitial shatter, whats Flash's next move. If ICeman were to create a dupe or multiple and Flash destroys them, then what? I dont doubt Flash would be smart enough to know Bobby can create another dupe, but youmake is seem as if Flash already knows Bobbys gonna do it. When shattered, Bobby has even more options to attack than while in regular form. Attacks that wouldnt be expected nor seen.

Originally posted by Draco69
Hardly. You're purposely giving Iceman god-like intelligence and some sort of deeping cunning I've never seen displayed in his character while Flash is dumbass who's just gonna punch everything he sees.. Riiight. I got news for you. Flash is much, much, much smarter than Iceman with his powers than Iceman is of HIS powers.

Iceman's inability to use his powers correctly is not a result of PIS or CIS (this refers to a case where a character KNOWINGLY performs stupid acts because of some moral code or rule he abides by; i.e. Superman and his lack of superspeed). He's just not that bright enough to use it that way. I've heard ridiculous theories that Iceman will cunningly freeze the ozone layer and some nonsense or infiltrate the Speed Force (not possible...) and...um freeze it. Flash has displayed the ability to his powers on high end feats smartly and creatively. Iceman? With the exception of less than a dozen feats, most them in a alternate timeline in another dimension, Iceman hasn't displayed to be A) smart enough or B) creative enough to use his powers as described. In fact he has no indication he IS that smart to use it that way. Blairwind and you certainly are. But Iceman. Nope. He's still gonna throw icebeams and surf around..

In alot of Iceman's solo fights, he does fight with some smarts. Once again youre making my statements out to be something they arent. Im not giving Iceman god-like intelligence in the slightest. Hes has shown to be cunning and creative on occasions though. However when he is fighting with a team, he does fight moreso like an idiot and clown. You also make it seem like Flash is some type of strategic combatant off the bat. Many of the time he does punch everything he sees if he feels that all thats needed. Alot of the time that doesnt work and then as a result he is forced to using his "Flash facts" or other means of defeat. Im as much of a Flash supporter as anyone else, but dont make him out to be some quick to the point scholar when it comes to battle when thats certainly not the case alot of the time until the end of battles.

I do agree with you in saying that Flash is alot smarter in his use of powers than Iceman is. Thats a fact nobody can deny. Is just too bad Iceman doesnt have a mantle/legacy to carry. I reckon hed be much better, but its still no excuse. Hes an underachiever.

Originally posted by Draco69
And Iceman becoming one with all moisture on Earth is? Or transforming into a fog of ice shards? Please curb the bias. Everything you've described previously and below is COMPLETELY out of character for Iceman. What's in character for Iceman? Iceslides and Icebeams. And the occassional snowball. That's it.

I never mentioned Iceman becoming one with all the moisute on Earth as a start-off tactic in a 1on1 battle. Youre the one who stated Flash would be invisible moving at lightspeed and such. I mention Icemans other forms as a result of being shattered of evaporated. You mentioned Flash doesnt require a physical form. I merely stated Iceman doesnt require one either. Im not being bias at all. I just try to mention logical abilities Iceman can display at a start of the fight. You mention Flash abilities that he normally dont do till a last resort(most of the time).

I wont argue that a typical Iceman fight would be ice-beams, ice-blocks or ice-slide. Just like a typical Flash fight would be fast punches, use some props and maybe a kinetic energy steal. Thats it for Flash for the most part as well. Or does he usualy start off fights going lightspeed and turning into energy?

Originally posted by Draco69
It's merely an analogy to prove my point that Iceman cannot perceive the Flash. Much less attack him...

That would only prove to be more valid in the beginning of the fight.

Originally posted by Draco69
Actually, that's happened...against Colbalt Blue (twin brother of Barry Allen.) Granted it was a couple of countries over but it happened nonetheless...

Aganst Cobalt, he grabbed him and ran with him to those Countries. I believe he also has a running start from after saving Barry, correct? I wonder if hed be able to carry Iceman without freezing to him with a touch?

Originally posted by Draco69
Since Mark Waid started writing his book. Again, you don't understand Flash's powers. He has LITERALLY no limit to his speed. He can be as damn fast as he wants to be provided channels the Speed Force. Which doesn't take long, in fact most of his comics if you read them show the Flash doing impossible things while everyone else in the world is frozen. Like when he outran Death to the end of time.

Can you show an example of Flash going lightspeed instantly? Id like to see it. Flash doesnt have to go lightspeed just for everyone else around him to appear to be frozen. When he outran Death to the end of time, i dont think he was going light speed. He was merely time traveling. You dont have to be going lightspeed to time travel.

Originally posted by Draco69
A) Flash will be moving too damn fast to perceive much less concentrate on. Iceman's concentration to launch an attack is equivalent to a day to the Flash.

It woud seem like a day to the Flash if momentum is built up or hes moving at near lightspeeds.

Originally posted by Draco69
B) Iceman cannot think faster than the Flash.

I never stated Iceman thinks faster than Flash.

Originally posted by Draco69
1) His metabolism and bodily functions are at superspeed to. Can Iceman freeze a normal person's blood? Yep. Can he freeze the bloodflow of a person that moves at the speed of sound? No. It would be like trying to freeze a tsunami with the mass of a small moon with an icecube during the 1978 heatwave. Captain Cold once shot the Flash pointblank at his face. The icegun can freeze anything it touches to absolute ZERO. And it did. His face, his skull, his brain and his blood. Did it last? Nope. One panel later, the ice shattered and melted and the Flash put on his Flash costume to kick some ass.

You say Iceman cant freeze the blood of someone who moves at the speed of sound. That an assumption on your part. Flash has been shot with a clone gun of Captain Cold and was frozen solid. Colds words were "Encased in ice sure, but not even close to absolute zero. Woulda shattered with a touch. He actually stayed frozen long enough for Cold to relocate him and allow him to thaw. Got frozen twice actually.

Originally posted by Draco69
Cold. Flash can run in space unprotected as shown in the Imperiux saga AND he regularly gets shot with a icegun projecting absolute zero temperatures. Flash never gets cold...

Flash stays warm by vibrating his body. If he didnt, hed get cold. Hes not immune to it. Hes felt the chill before.

Originally posted by Draco69
Yep. A mutant with normal human perceptions without access to a source of power that pretty much nullifies any temperature attacks is an excellent example....

Yep. A mutant who can read others thoughts and know what they are planning. A mutant who also has a familiarity with the other because of being in control of their body for some time. And Emma does have the ability to nullify most temperature attacks as well. Youre saying Flash's powers nullify any temperature attack? Hes been burned, hes felt the chill of cold beofore. His powers CAN nullify temperature attacks. Just like Emmas can nullify temperature attacks.

Originally posted by Draco69
I'm sorry. You did it again. Did you just say that Iceman will attack the Flash before the Flash can even realize he's being attacked? And did you just say Iceman's "flash" (Hah!) freeze is so instanteneous that the Flash won't perceive it coming much less out run it? Did you also say that Iceman will somehow pinpoint where the speed demon is? And finally, no you did not just say that any sort of freezing attack will work on the Flash when Captain Cold and the the DC1million Captain Cold have all tried and failed...?

If Iceman freezes the blood in Flashs body, or drains it from him, its no guarentee Flash can instantly run away to avoid it. Tell me, how can Flash percieve a flas-freeze coming? If Iceman is shattered and nothing but a conciousness floating around, he may very well use all the moisture in Flash body directly. It seems to me that youre implying that Cold or anyone else has never froze Flash for longer than 2 panels.

Originally posted by Draco69
And this should tell you something....

It tells me that it isnt likely Flash will be running at lightspeed at the start of this fight.

Originally posted by Draco69
What is this? 1994? That's. Not. True. Anymore. Wally got over that at the end of Waid's run. Your info's outdated by at least 10 years..

As i stated above somewhere, can you show where Flash went lightspeed and didnt start to get drawn in by the speedforce? I guess i may be outdated. A scan or 2 would help.

Originally posted by Draco69
And why not? What? Is the first blow going to be so exhausting that he'll suddenly go as fast as an Asian grandmother?

I guess Flash is gonna be doing victory laps around the globe after starting the fight going 99% the speed of light.

Originally posted by Draco69
It's not a tossup if you REALLY think about it.

Logically.

LOGICALLY, I said!

Good.

Now who wins?

Seriously though, Flash is just on another level altogether. I think he could beat Silver Surfer if he tried hard enough

I mean:

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/3456/flashv2136238nl.jpg


http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/2307/flash138p173ex.jpg

http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/9849/flash138p186lh.jpg

Flash was literally on one side of the galaxy, RAN back to Earth, set up the frequency all around the world, circling the globe a million times and BEAT A BEING WHO CAN TELEPORT INSTANTENEOUSLY. Insanteneouly. Hell, the Cosmic Gambler had ALREADY teleported when Flash began to run....

I mean, Jesus!

Nice scans. Especially considering Flash was getting borrowed speed from the fastest beings on the planest as well as speed from Krakkl and the entire planet?

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/3849/flash138p128atwn0.th.jpg
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/8506/flash138p134stuu0.th.jpg

After a shattered Bobby appears to be defeated i guess Flash is gonna keep running huh? Maybe even wait for Iceman to reform somewhere?

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/4609/uncannyxmen434pyrate15ub4.th.jpg
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/6918/uncannyxmen434pyrate16qk5.th.jpg

I was wondering about the date on that "trapped in the speedforce" thing too.

Couldn't Flash just disassemble every water molecule on the planet?

something everyone seems to be forgetting: flash's reaction times aren't lightspeed at default--he has to tap into the speedforce. that is to say, his human brain must make the decision to tap into the speedforce.

in KMC rules, each combatant starts the fight mostly unawares, with only a basic knowledge of the opponent.

so flash may make the human-speed decision to go speedforce, but iceman can make the equally human-speed decision to become part of every water molecule on earth (hey, if we're going by top-end here...)

from there it's a mostly uphill battle for ole bobby drake...i'm just saying it's not as cut-and-dry as "flash is faster".

Originally posted by manorastroman
something everyone seems to be forgetting: flash's reaction times aren't lightspeed at default--he has to tap into the speedforce. that is to say, his human brain must make the decision to tap into the speedforce.

in KMC rules, each combatant starts the fight mostly unawares, with only a basic knowledge of the opponent.

so flash may make the human-speed decision to go speedforce, but iceman can make the equally human-speed decision to become part of every water molecule on earth (hey, if we're going by top-end here...)

from there it's a mostly uphill battle for ole bobby drake...i'm just saying it's not as cut-and-dry as "flash is faster".
From Draco's account, it sounds like he does have supersped thought processes by default and has to manually slow down to meet human speeds.