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Marka has his bastard sword and scepter.

Shimrra has his staff.

Who would win?

Been done before...

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/6797/sign7bz.png

Ragnos hurls an astroid at him...pwnage
Ragnos hacks him in half...pwnage
the duel and Ragnos out maneuver him...pwnage
look any way you want to look at it Shimmra is pwnd

I wouldn't go that far. Shimrra was known to be able to take many jedi at once, so in terms of physical strength they are not that far apart. Although Ragnos is still the stronger of the two, he will not curbstomp Shimrra.

He still wins and besides Marka Ragnos>>>1000 average Jedi

Like I said, in terms of physical combat it wouldn't be a curbstomp but he will win.

Shimrra's advantage with Luke was that

1. Luke was tired after queering his way through the Vong army.

2. Luke was not quite as physically strong, a lightsaber has practically no mass, hence no momentum-

2 -A giant bastard sword empowered by the darkside however does. Marka Ragnos's strength was described by his contemporaries as being "legendary." He could, if anything, knock out Shimrra.

He could also hurl boulders or other rather large painful objects at his foe, to distract him.

It would be an interesting match, but I would still say the DLOTS wins.

*P.S Ownage you dumbass, look what you did to the page

*stealthily edits Ownage's stupidity*

hahaha

Where is proof that Marka is stronger physically than Shimrra, who himself was far stronger than anyone in his race, where the weakest in their race matches the strongest human in strenght. Plus that he has been enhanced with strenght.

Originally posted by kamikz
Where is proof that Marka is stronger physically than Shimrra, who himself was far stronger than anyone in his race, where the weakest in their race matches the strongest human in strenght. Plus that he has been enhanced with strenght.

Ragnos was stated as having "tremendous physical strength". And nowhere does it say that the weakest Vong matches the strongest human, that's retarded.

Originally posted by kamikz
Where is proof that Marka is stronger physically than Shimrra, who himself was far stronger than anyone in his race, where the weakest in their race matches the strongest human in strenght. Plus that he has been enhanced with strenght.

Being an ancient Sith, a race renowned for their physical strength helps...

Not to mention that Ragnos has the force to augment his strength. Shimrra does not.

Originally posted by zephiel7
Being an ancient Sith, a race renowned for their physical strength helps...

Not to mention that Ragnos has the force to augment his strength. Shimrra does not.

Piss poor logic.

Emperor Palpatine was both physically stronger than Yoda and had an equal grasp of the Force, but was unable to overcome Yoda himself in any of their saber locks.

Ragnos is an unknown. While he is physically powerful, you have no proof to indicate that he is physically stronger than Shimmra.

But the fact that the force does augment his strength is most likely true, while Shimrra doesn't have that luxury.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
But the fact that the force does augment his strength is most likely true, while Shimrra doesn't have that luxury.

That's inconsistent. Consider that in RotS, Dooku is able to block an overhand assault from Obi-Wan and Anakin simultaneously, and either of them are physically beyond Dooku. And yet, at the end of the duel, Anakin just easily overpowers him.

I'm not saying that Ragnos won't win, as I believe that he should, but not for just that reason. I don't see him cold-cocking Shimmra.

I never said he would cold cock Ragnos. Now how is what I said inconsistent? Dooku possibly augmented his strength with the force, while Anakin did it on a greater level while tapping into the dark side.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Ragnos was stated as having "tremendous physical strength". And nowhere does it say that the weakest Vong matches the strongest human, that's retarded.


I meant to say the average human....



And how much does the force really improve his physical strenght?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I never said he would cold cock Ragnos. Now how is what I said inconsistent? Dooku possibly augmented his strength with the force, while Anakin did it on a greater level while tapping into the dark side.

Ironic how Dooku is a Dark Lord of the Sith. I'm pretty sure that he's got some strength in the Dark Side himself.

I never said that what you said is inconsistent. I said that the feat itself is.

Since when is Dooku a DLOTS? I'm confused. He's a sith lord, where does it ever state him being a DLOTS? That's as ridiculous as calling Maul a DLOTS

Maul was a DLOTS.

No, Maul was a sith lord. According to Bane's new sith order, there is the master(DLOTS), and the apprentice(Sith Lord).

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Since when is Dooku a DLOTS? I'm confused. He's a sith lord, where does it ever state him being a DLOTS? That's as ridiculous as calling Maul a DLOTS

It's the "Order of the Dark Lords of the Sith". Both are referred to as "Sith Lords" and "Dark Lords of the Sith".

Show me where. I've never seen this crap, the movies called him and Maul Sith Lords. I forgot that after Exar Kun, any fool can declare himself a DLOTS

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Show me where. I've never seen this crap, the movies called him and Maul Sith Lords. I forgot that after Exar Kun, any fool can declare himself a DLOTS

RotS novelization, Palpatine refers to Bane's sect as "the Order of the Dark Lords of the Sith." And they are both referred as Sith Lords.

So how the hell can you have 2 DLOTS escape? That's retarded. And not that I'm saying the novel contradicts the movie, but there's nothing in the movies that suggests that Dooku and Maul were DLOTS. Obviously Vader is different. But I don't understand how bane's sect would mean Dooku and Maul were DLOTS

It's moreso of a nod to Kaan's "Brotherhood of Dark Lords".

Both of the reigning Sith hold the title; "Dark Lord of the Sith".

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
So how the hell can you have 2 DLOTS escape? That's retarded. And not that I'm saying the novel contradicts the movie, but there's nothing in the movies that suggests that Dooku and Maul were DLOTS. Obviously Vader is different. But I don't understand how bane's sect would mean Dooku and Maul were DLOTS

Dude, Vader held the same position that Maul and Dooku did. Sidious just personally preferred Vader to the others. They are the same.

Well like I said, apparently anybody with a pulse can call himself a DLOTS, so it kinda sucks out the beauty, power, and creativity out of that title don't you think?

Erm, WTF? If that person is self-appointed; yes. But Maul, Dooku and the other apprentices in Bane's order weren't self-appointed, bizarrely enough.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Well like I said, apparently anybody with a pulse can call himself a DLOTS, so it kinda sucks out the beauty, power, and creativity out of that title don't you think?

What the hell are you talking about?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Well like I said, apparently anybody with a pulse can call himself a DLOTS, so it kinda sucks out the beauty, power, and creativity out of that title don't you think?

In the same token, it's kinda sad when people claim that some long dead Sith Lord possesses more power than the guy who was called "the revenge of the Sith" and "the one powerful enough to bring about their return". The same man who was destined to take over the galaxy, create the largest military Force known to man, had thousands and thousands of years of knowledge to consume, exterminated the Jedi Order, built more Dark Side knowledge, and required the entire long dead spirits of the Jedi Order to obliterate him.

Wouldn't you think?

Kind've takes the beauty out of Star Wars' major villain, doesn't it?

Well I'm saying in my mind the title meant something when the likes of Kun was appointed, Ragnos, Sadow, etc.. After that you had Revan and Malak and the rest since Sidious appoint themselves or what not.

Originally posted by Escape81
In the same token, it's kinda sad when people claim that some long dead Sith Lord possesses more power than the guy who was called "the revenge of the Sith" and "the one powerful enough to bring about their return". The same man who was destined to take over the galaxy, create the largest military Force known to man, had thousands and thousands of years of knowledge to consume, exterminated the Jedi Order, built more Dark Side knowledge, and required the entire long dead spirits of the Jedi Order to obliterate him.

Wouldn't you think?

Kind've takes the beauty out of Star Wars' major villain, doesn't it?

Meh, Sidious was a benefactor of circumstance. He was a damn good manipulator who adapted to his situation, but he was a benefactor of circumstance nontheless.

Originally posted by Swirly Girl
Meh, Sidious was a benefactor of circumstance. He was a damn good manipulator who adapted to his situation, but he was a benefactor of circumstance nontheless.

I disagree.

Benefactor of circumstance? Are you implying that what he did was practically handed to him?

Originally posted by Escape81
In the same token, it's kinda sad when people claim that some long dead Sith Lord possesses more power than the guy who was called "the revenge of the Sith" and "the one powerful enough to bring about their return". The same man who was destined to take over the galaxy, create the largest military Force known to man, had thousands and thousands of years of knowledge to consume, exterminated the Jedi Order, built more Dark Side knowledge, and required the entire long dead spirits of the Jedi Order to obliterate him.

Wouldn't you think?

Kind've takes the beauty out of Star Wars' major villain, doesn't it?


Gee, the same thing was said about Kun. You can call it what you want, I don't have to sit here and verbally fellate my favorite character with irrelevant feats. I think it's sad to consider ROTS Sidious more powerful than the originals, the ones Sidious went to for learning. Also, please stop saying it required long dead spirits to obliterate him, because that wasn't the case. Perhaps you should read Empire's end again. And your moot is moot because political maneuvering=/personal power. Not sure why you even posted all of that nonsense.

No, and I reiterate "He was a damn good manipulator who adapted to his situation".

But ultimately, he's not the "z0mg t3h u83r C14eus!"

Originally posted by Swirly Girl
Meh, Sidious was a benefactor of circumstance. He was a damn good manipulator who adapted to his situation, but he was a benefactor of circumstance nontheless.


I think she's saying that his political maneuvering and his personal power are two different things, and a benefactor of circumstance could mean the fact that Anakin saved his ass, and then his size and Yoda's disadvantage saved his ass again.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Gee, the same thing was said about Kun. You can call it what you want, I don't have to sit here and verbally fellate my favorite character with irrelevant feats. I think it's sad to consider ROTS Sidious more powerful than the originals, the ones Sidious went to for learning. Also, please stop saying it required long dead spirits to obliterate him, because that wasn't the case. Perhaps you should read Empire's end again. And your moot is moot because political maneuvering=/personal power. Not sure why you even posted all of that nonsense.

Rofl. If we want to go by favorites, you'd see me given a "verbal fellatio" to Gilad Pellaeon and General Grievous.

I could easily say that Ragnos is your favorite because you say the same thing that I do about Palpatine. Double standards? Rofl. Won't work.

Gee, go back and re-read what Brand said when he died.

Ragnos is my favorite, but I don't use stupidity like "Well people that think Sidious is the shit are sad". I respect other people's opinions, you obviously don't. And I did re-read the quote. Please don't try to embellish it more than you already have. He said how many jedi he would use to make sure that Palpatine stays dead. Nowhere did it say how many it would take to stop Palpatine, so your point is moot.

'and required the entire long dead spirits of the Jedi Order to obliterate him'

This is not true. You do not know what was required, only that the entire order would make sure. It could have taken less.

Yea I just said that

Well while I was typing, your post didn't appear until I had posted, dumbo.

Sorry, flexing nuts here.

Thanks for the ammunition. I'd be careful before labeling someone else as 'teh f4nb0y'.



We know about Palpatine. We don't know a quarter of that about Ragnos. So, essentially, what you're going by is your own personal opinion which is equal to the grand sum of zero in the grand scheme of things.



I respect opinions when they are presented as opinions. But you and GM Nebaris seem to think that your "opinions" amount to the same thing as fact.



"Palpatine will never return. The Force and the Jedi before us will see to that."

Wow.



"The Jedi before us."

Oh, lemme guess. He was referring to Ysanna, right?

I'm sorry, but there's a difference between what you said, and what the comic said. There's a difference between how many jedi it will take, and how many they used. I'm glad you understand this..

And no, contrary to your opinion, most of my opinions are based on logical deduction as I have proven time and time again(not always).. So I disagree with your "opinion".

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
'and required the entire long dead spirits of the Jedi Order to obliterate him'

This is not true. You do not know what was required, only that the entire order would make sure. It could have taken less.

Rofl!

It could have taken less, but they all made sure. Hmm... suppose that be that he posed one hell of a risk, wouldn't it?

LMAO. Yes, because (how many they needed) is the same thing as (how many it would take)? Which one failed you here, reading comprehension or logical deduction?

'We know about Palpatine. We don't know a quarter of that about Ragnos. So, essentially, what you're going by is your own personal opinion which is equal to the grand sum of zero in the grand scheme of things.'

Actually we know that he was the strongest of his time, which includes people like Sadow, who we know a lot about.

'I respect opinions when they are presented as opinions. But you and GM Nebaris seem to think that your "opinions" amount to the same thing as fact.'

That's because GM = God. I think it's pretty reasonable of me to present my opinion over facts kthnx.

'"Palpatine will never return. The Force and the Jedi before us will see to that."'

Where does it say that it would require all of the jedi?

It doesn't is my point, obviously escape fails to see this.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
LMAO. Yes, because (how many they needed) is the same thing as (how many it would take)? Which one failed you here, reading comprehension or logical deduction?

Logical deduction makes me wonder why the hell they'd use more if they didn't need to.

You tell me.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
'We know about Palpatine. We don't know a quarter of that about Ragnos. So, essentially, what you're going by is your own personal opinion which is equal to the grand sum of zero in the grand scheme of things.'

Actually we know that he was the strongest of his time, which includes people like Sadow, who we know a lot about.

'I respect opinions when they are presented as opinions. But you and GM Nebaris seem to think that your "opinions" amount to the same thing as fact.'

That's because GM = God. I think it's pretty reasonable of me to present my opinion over facts kthnx.

'"Palpatine will never return. The Force and the Jedi before us will see to that."'

Where does it say that it would require all of the jedi?

I can't imagine why people don't take you seriously...

Originally posted by Escape81
Logical deduction makes me wonder why the hell they'd use more if they didn't need to.

You tell me.

That's not logical deduction at all, sorry Escape , so let me explain to you how.

#1. Brand has no idea how many Jedi it will take
#2. Since he knows and we all know DE Sidious is uber powerful, why not use them all, better to be safe than sorry.

It's the same with how I argued for Exar Kun, and I understood the fact that they rallied all the Jedi against him, but it didn't necessarily take ALL the jedi to defeat him. Understanding yet?

Agreed. Kind of like how Luke said it would take the whole jedi order to stop Ragnos, yet it only took Jaden.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
Agreed. Kind of like how Luke said it would take the whole jedi order to stop Ragnos, yet it only took Jaden.


No Gebaris, that's quite different. Luke said it would take the whole order to even contend with a living Ragnos. He didn't say how many he was going to use, he said how many it will take. On the other hand(and I hate arguing against Ragnos), it is likely that Luke knew very little about Ragnos, and if if he knew about Ragnos it would be very limited knowledge, so it would have been Luke's assumption more than anything.

Luke said right before that comment that his power was unknown, so it is exactly like the other thing. Better to be safe then to be sorry.

Originally posted by kamikz
Luke said right before that comment that his power was unknown, so it is exactly like the other thing. Better to be safe then to be sorry.

Kamikz it isn't exactly like the other thing. It is an unknown yes, but a different one, because he is specifically stating how many it would take, rather how many he was going to use. It's a technicality but in essence they're both unknown.

edit

In that way they are similiar yes.

Notice how I said kind of like sexy, and not exactly like.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Kamikz it isn't exactly like the other thing. It is an unknown yes, but a different one, because he is specifically stating how many it would take, rather how many he was going to use. It's a technicality but in essence they're both unknown.


Well figuring that he didn't know anything about Ragnos, means that it must have been a guess when he said it required the whole academy, meaning that is how many he would use....

Ah, I am glad to know that only you can deem what is logical deduction. I see that you've come down with the same disease that plagues many debators these days: logic-god syndrome. The condition in which one thinks that one's opinion or one's verdict supercedes another's. Especially when that person (unlike GM Nebaris) has not been shown to defy canon or defy authority.



Considering how Brand is a surviver of Order 66 and that DE Sidious was the one who mortally wounded him, he would be in a position to accurately judge how powerful Palpatine is. Say, unlike Luke, when he made the "judgment" regarding Marka Ragnos.



Mm-hmm. Brand says: "The Force and the Jedi before us will see to that."

I believe that The Force - being omnipresent and omnipotent - would have a fair assessment of one of it's prime users (Palpatine). So quit trying to undermine Palpatine here. And, furthermore, say you're right. Let's say that they all did it "just in case". Consider then that they wouldn't want to take the chance.



It's moreso illogical to assume that it would take only a handful.

Another factor: Brand was literally able to see into the Emperor's soul at that point...he could see exactly how powerful he was and how evil

Is it? Really... Double-standards strike again!



Amazing. As we know that Luke is such an Ancient Sith expert! I mean, lol, he has so much information to work with on them...



Who are you, Ron White?

If it's going to take all of them, he's going to use all of them. Furthermore, as I said. Luke knows next to nothing about Ragnos. Point moot.



Aww... you hate arguing against Ragnos? Rofl. And you want to accuse me of giving Palpatine a "verbal fellatio"? Cute. Ask anyone here. I've argued against Palpatine before. On many occasions. Hell, I even recall doing it recently against Traya... curious...

It is likely that he knew little about Ragnos???

Considering how Emperor Palpatine destroyed almost all of the Jedi's Archives and information, I'd guess so.

So, we have Brand (who's experienced Palpatine first hand) and The Force deciding how to keep Palpatine in check versus Luke (who never had any contact with Ragnos) passing judgment?

Rofl... oh yeah. Real logical.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Another factor: Brand was literally able to see into the Emperor's soul at that point...he could see exactly how powerful he was and how evil

Yup.

Lol, read the post above this. DS's double standards strike again!

#1. Yes I'm Ron White
#2. I corrected myself after I made that statement, perhaps you should read further.

If you're Ron White, that's quite disgusting. The man is a slob!

Originally posted by Escape81
Ah, I am glad to know that only you can deem what is logical deduction. I see that you've come down with the same disease that plagues many debators these days: logic-god syndrome. The condition in which one thinks that one's opinion or one's verdict supercedes another's. Especially when that person (unlike GM Nebaris) has not been shown to defy canon or defy authority.



Considering how Brand is a surviver of Order 66 and that DE Sidious was the one who mortally wounded him, he would be in a position to accurately judge how powerful Palpatine is. Say, unlike Luke, when he made the "judgment" regarding Marka Ragnos.



Mm-hmm. Brand says: "The Force and the Jedi before us will see to that."

I believe that The Force - being omnipresent and omnipotent - would have a fair assessment of one of it's prime users (Palpatine). So quit trying to undermine Palpatine here. And, furthermore, say you're right. Let's say that they all did it "just in case". Consider then that they wouldn't want to take the chance.



It's moreso illogical to assume that it would take only a handful.

And again, your example is equivalent to the Exar Kun example, it was never directly stated how many Jedi were needed, but how many they were going to use. You specifically said that the text said how many they needed to stop Palpatine, so you would be arguing with the text, in which case you are wrong. Now if you want to call it a logical assumption, then maybe you have something, or maybe not.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
If you're Ron White, that's quite disgusting. The man is a slob!


Funniest storyteller in the world today.. All man all the time?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
And again, your example is equivalent to the Exar Kun example, it was never directly stated how many Jedi were needed, but how many they were going to use. You specifically said that the text said how many they needed to stop Palpatine, so you would be arguing with the text, in which case you are wrong. Now if you want to call it a logical assumption, then maybe you have something, or maybe not.

No, my example holds far more weight than yours. We've already proven that Luke's assessment of Ragnos is without any base, as he never - not even in the end - ever came into contact with Ragnos.

Whereas Brand did with Palpatine, and The Force is "omnipresent".

Brand's assessment > Luke's assessment.

The Force > Brand's assessment.

The Force > Luke's assessment.

Luke says how many it would take.
Brand says how many he's going to use. NOWHERE does that say how many are needed, as you claimed earlier that was stated in the text. So your example isn't relevant because you were specifically arguing with the text. Now if this your logical deduction(Which it should be considering the fact that you won't argue with text), how are you going to say that you Brand knows how many were required, when he specifically stated how many he was going to use, as in better safe than sorry which is MORE logical than your example? And if you stick with that, the same example would go for the defeat of Exar Kun. They rallied ALL the Jedi against him knowing the threat they're facing. Does that mean it would take ALL the Jedi to defeat him? Not necessarily, but better safe than sorry.

Aww... but I'm sorry... Luke has no basis for his assessment...



Erm... how is your "better safe than sorry" example more logical? Brand, unlike Luke, confronted his enemy - and was even possessed by his spirit at one point. Luke never had any confrontation with Ragnos.

Thus it is logical to deduce that Luke, in the end, knew jack about Ragnos.

Thus it is logical to deduce that Brand knew how best to assess Palpatine's abilities, as would the Force itself.

I'm sorry escape, you are arguing against text. But let me try this out since you're adamant about this.

Brand said he will use ALL the Jedi to make sure Palpatine stays gone, NOT stop them. Now, why did he NOT say how much was needed? Oh, that's because he couldn't possibly quantify the power of ALL the jedi. Could you? I didn't think so. Therefore it's more logical to assume that it's more safe than sorry, because he couldn't quantify the power of ALL the Jedi, and because it's more convenient to get EVERYBODY, ensuring the death of Palpatine. Luke didn't know anything about Ragnos, but he stated it would take the entire academy to destroy him. Again, better safe than sorry. The Jedi rallied everybody again Exar Kun because they have SEEN his power, yet they do not know how many it would take, so they gathered everybody to ensure his death. AGAIN, better safe than sorry. So I'm afraid your little example that conveniently boosts Sidious doesn't work. The end.

Originally posted by Escape81
Piss poor logic.

Emperor Palpatine was both physically stronger than Yoda and had an equal grasp of the Force, but was unable to overcome Yoda himself in any of their saber locks.

Ragnos is an unknown. While he is physically powerful, you have no proof to indicate that he is physically stronger than Shimmra.


Never once did I mention Ragnos was physically stronger than Shimrra. I merely stated that a conclusion cannot be made about how strong Shimrra is relative to Ragnos. It is a variable, since Ragnos himself also possessed great strength.

Shimrra does not have the advantage of fighting a tired force user. Also he was resistant against a lightsaber.

Ragnos' bastard sword on the other hand can generate enough momentum (a lot more than a near massless lightsaber) to at least knock out Shimra.

I also stated that Ragnos has the advantage of hurling objects at his enemy. A couple of massive boulders and a bastard sword wound to the head is most likely going to give Shimrra a run for his money.

Overall Shimrra is a strange one, whether he wins or loses depends almost completely on the opponents skill with the lightsaber, not the force.

The Vong's regeneration is based on the power and speed of the lightsaber hit. We know Ragnos is VERY powerful so it's also unlikely Shimrra is going to regenerate after every blow. Not to mention he's not immune to certain manifestations of the force.

Just everything Ragnos can throw at him

very heavy boulders

Originally posted by zephiel7
very heavy boulders

Ragnos, as I said, would most likely win. But he'd have to use indirect Force attacks.

Originally posted by zephiel7
very heavy boulders

While Ragnos may not directly be able to do jack to him, he could possibly chuck stuff at him via the force or just crush the floor underneath Shimmra for instance.

Look, if DE Sidious started launching a force storm, or Exar Kun started blasting at him with his energy beams, I doubt that either of them could affect Shimrra. They do however have other (I agree) have other indirect ways of killing Shimrra.

A lightsaber in the case of Shimra (who is resistant to such a weapon) just would not do the job. You need a good old fashioned greatsword, to knock the bastard out.

Originally posted by zephiel7
Look, if DE Sidious started launching a force storm, or Exar Kun started blasting at him with his energy beams, I doubt that either of them could affect Shimrra. They do however have other (I agree) have other indirect ways of killing Shimrra.

A lightsaber in the case of Shimra (who is resistant to such a weapon) just would not do the job. You need a good old fashioned greatsword, to knock the bastard out.

No, it isn't likely that they would effect Shimmra.

But, Exar Kun could blast debris that would fall on Shimmra or Sidious could use the Force Storm to also cause debris to fall.

Ragnos would just have to use indirect Force attacks. And he'd win.

Hence the term "manifestations of the force".

It really all depends if Ragnos even gets the chance to do so. Luke barely had the opprotunity to strike Shimmra. Both are strong, yes, but I think the only way for these two to win are by using tactics. And as far as tactics IMO Shimmra has much more in his arsenal than Ragnos does.

BTW where the is fight located?

More Arsenal? You are forgetting that Ragnos was a champion warrior with tremendous strength. If he doesn't slice up Shimrra, he'll drop something on the overlord.

It being your opinion does not necessarily make it true...

Tell me, how exactly is Shimrra more tactical in close quarter combat than Ragnos?

There's literally nothing force oriented that Ragnos can produce that would work in close quarters and a normal Vong warrior can survive being buried, Shimrra?

And you'll have to show how Ragnos is a better fighter than someone who can just toss a blast bug at him right off.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
More Arsenal? You are forgetting that Ragnos was a champion warrior with tremendous strength. If he doesn't slice up Shimrra, he'll drop something on the overlord.

Umm..Thats all he can do? Oh yeah...thats right.

You also seem to forget that the Vong are different than everyone in the SW universe. I doubt the first thing that comes to Rags mind would be to drop something on his head. And even then Shimmra would move out of the way. It would take some time for Ragnos to figure out what to do with him in order to beat him.
Shimmra's staff can do 3 or 4 different things alone. Not to mention he has things such as blast bugs and other toxins. Their brute strength will not win them the fight, and if this arena has no debris or any objects to throw then Ragnos would lose. If the arena has objects then Ragnos has a better chance of winning.

Originally posted by zephiel7
It being your opinion does not necessarily make it true...

Tell me, how exactly is Shimrra more tactical in close quarter combat than Ragnos?

Do you have a better suggestion?

Well, Ragnos coming to close to Shimmra wouldent be such a great idea. Vong have the capabilities of using Plaeryin Bol, Thud bugs, Coufee ect...

Originally posted by Admiral Akbar

Well, Ragnos coming to close to Shimmra wouldent be such a great idea. Vong have the capabilities of using Plaeryin Bol, Thud bugs, Coufee ect...

Well the ancient Sith were extremely strong and highly skilled swordsman who empowered their weaponry with the darkside. I would not say Shimrra has anything OVER Ragnos in terms of close quarter combat.

Who is to say that Ragnos would even have to engage his opponents in close quarters? He could just indirectly use the force to weaken, or even finish Shimrra.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
There's literally nothing force oriented that Ragnos can produce that would work in close quarters and a normal Vong warrior can survive being buried, Shimrra?

And you'll have to show how Ragnos is a better fighter than someone who can just toss a blast bug at him right off.

Ah, but remember... Ragnos > all...

Personally, yeah, I think Ragnos would win. But you've got nothing to say that he'd overcome Shimmra in close quarters, so prove it. The reason that Ragnos would win is that he'd be able to use indirect Force attacks - and even then - Shimmra still has a chance.

If this guy can threaten Luke Skywalker, then he can threaten Ragnos.

Originally posted by Escape81
If this guy can threaten Luke Skywalker, then he can threaten Ragnos.

The only reasons why Shimrra could threaten Luke were that:

a) Luke was tired because he fought through an army before
b) They were fighting in the Vong HQ (no "neutral" enviroment)
c) the plot

We've seen Luke instakilling a Vong slayer before. Technically he should have been able to do the same to Shimrra. Given the supernatural speed of Jedi which is beyond everything you can reach with some biomechanical implants, Shimrra shouldn't even have been able to hit Luke. In universe this can be just explained by the fact that Luke was indeed tired after fighting all the other Vong.

Now put a fresh Ragnos with more physical strength then Luke in the arena who, unlike Luke, wears a nice set of armor and has a weapon with almost the cutting abilities of a lightsaber + some nice kinetical energy added through the swings which a lightsaber doesn't have. Then let them fight in a "neutral" enviroment where Ragnos can basically throw everything at the Supreme Overlord. I really don't see Shimrra surviving this.

Ok, then Shimrra can toss things at Shimrra that he's never seen before and he can't affect with the force.

And Shimrra IS fast enough to keep up with Luke...Shimrra's been bio-enhanced to hell and back by the shapers of the Vong. Oh, and armor's really gonna help Ragnos as much as it did the Sith Lords butchered by Massassi when he's hit by a blastbug. And last I checked, normal amphistaffs part top kinds of armor like butter

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Ok, then Shimrra can toss things at Shimrra that he's never seen before and he can't affect with the force.

Shimrra can toss things at Ragnos ? Nice. Because we've seen that most Jedi / Sith can dissipate energy to a certain extend and Ragnos is one of the most powerful he will totally have problems with any sort of energy weapon (e.g. Blast Bugs) that Shimrra would be able to use. This is of course ignoring the fact that we've seen Jedi Padawans moving faster then blaster bolts, meaning that Ragnos will most likely be able to dodge any kind of ranged attack.



Excuse me: How would bio-enchancement even come close to force based boosts of speed, dexterity and strength ? And you're ignoring the fact that Luke basically tooled an entire army of Vong + Shimrra's slayers before almost on his own (if we can thrust Jacen and Jaina's words) so he might have been tired. Otherwise: Why didn't he simply toast Shimrra with "Emerald Lightning" ?



Did we see the Massassi cutting through the armor ? I'm pretty sure if Sith Alchemy can produce weapons that can resist lightsaber hits and virtually cut through everything, an armor created with Sith Alchemy would be almost equal to cortosis weave. And if normal people can survive blast bug hits (yes...has been done) I wonder how this is gonna kill somebody who can:

a) dissipate energy
b) dodge range attacks
c) wears an armour that possibly exceeds most other armor types

Not to mention that I'd like to see Shimrra using ranged weapons when Ragnos comes in with full speed (force boosted) and kicks Shimrra's sorry ass across the place with a two metre long Sith Sword or f***s up the enviroment with his force powers / his sceptre.

Are you kidding me? Ragnos has nothing on Shimrra in melee combat. What will Ragnos do to Shimrra with the force? Really?

Yes, something Ragnos is incapable of sensing, let alone affecting? And given that most Jedi have been hit by the projectiles, which are so small and fast that most force users don't even SEE them and given how fast Vong can toss things...

Of course Luke was tired. And how do shapers come close to matching force based boosts? Considring many elite Vong have been able to match Jedi in tests of skill and speed...Shedao Shai vs. Corran anyone?

When's Sith alchemy produced armor that can resist sabers? Alright, let's add that to small projectiles Ragnos can't even SEE, let alone sense or react to...and where's Sith alchemy 'cut through basically anything?'

Oh, and great assumption that Ragnos is going to hurl himself in force boosted right off the bat. In the time it takes to run in, Shimrra could easily lob a plasma grenade his way and unless Ragnos knows how to sense Vong-unlikely given that Dark Siders are beyond the Unifying Force abilitoes, Ragnosis going to have to deal with Shimrra on even ground and given that Shimrra's strength is tip top of a race whose POLITICIANS are twice as powerful as a full grown, healthy human...and speed? An average Vong subaltern was able to flick several daggers out of the air, thrown by a noghri-one of the top assassin races in the galaxy- cover the distance to the Noghri, sweep his legs out and impaled him...before the daggers had hit the round.

And gee, considering while Ragnos stops to concentrate, I'd love to see Ragnos take a razor bug in the face. What would happen? Gee, I'll go with the guy wearing nearly totally impenetrable vonduum crab armor that has managed to withstand bladed weapons and sabers. Why not

How about more likely Ragnos panics when he finds out all his godly force powers don't mean a thing to Shimrra and takes a plasma eel full in the face when he tries to stop it with the force and can't? Seems just as likely. Or that Shimrra is able to at least match him with skill and power.

Correct me if im wrong, but aren't the blast bugs, thud bugs ect..all integrated within the Vongs body/armor? So wouldent he not need to pull it out and throw it like a grenade?

Question..will his armor help him if a snake wraps around his body and breaks every bone in his body? I forgot what else Shimmra did. I believe he poisened Luke.

They can be integreated, but don't have to be

I thought so...So if Ragnos came to close to Shimmra would the bugs attack him as an act of defence?

I don't think so, but if Ragnos dodged one, it would fly at him from behind and most likely split his skull, seeing as how he can't sense them.

Yeah, like I said... I don't think that even "super-human" Ragnos can defeat Shimmra in close-quarters combat. There's nothing really to support it.

Ragnos has a good chance of winning if he keeps his distance and uses indirect Force assaults.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
I don't think so, but if Ragnos dodged one, it would fly at him from behind and most likely split his skull, seeing as how he can't sense them.

Oh, thats right I totally forgot about that.

If Illustrious or IKC saw this thread they would probably have a heart attack. I am not so inclined to worship Ragnos, but I doubt Shimmra has a chance. Sith magic includes illusions, alchemy etc. etc. Shimmra will have no defense against these abilities.

Are you kidding me? He has a defence against every other force attack, though. Illusions and the like might not even effect him, seeing as how he is a Vong. Even if Marka did make illusions, then what? Shimrra attacks them, and realizes it, until Mark jumps out from hiding, yells "Booga booga!" and chops at him with all of his strength. Shimrra says "Ow," and proceeds to waste him in melee combat.

BOOGA BOOGA

Nope didnt win

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Are you kidding me? He has a defence against every other force attack, though. Illusions and the like might not even effect him, seeing as how he is a Vong. Even if Marka did make illusions, then what? Shimrra attacks them, and realizes it, until Mark jumps out from hiding, yells "Booga booga!" and chops at him with all of his strength. Shimrra says "Ow," and proceeds to waste him in melee combat.

Why would Ragnos reveal himself? He would attack Shimmra with dozens of illusions at the same time, then when he is completely distracted Ragnos stabs him in the heart.

And he's getting through his armor... how?

Originally posted by jollyjim311
And he's getting through his armor... how?

With his big ass, dark-side empowered sword.

Like Ludo's? 'Cause, that one kind of breaks against a table...

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=244&page=27

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Like Ludo's? 'Cause, that one kind of breaks against a table...

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=244&page=27

Erm, he meant to break his sword, to show his frustration.

Then Shimrra would mean to break Marka's sword, to show him an ass-kicking.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Then Shimrra would mean to break Marka's sword, to show him an ass-kicking.

Your being a bit ridiculous. Even if Shimmras' armor was capable of deflecting Ragnos' sword(which is inconclusive), Ragnos would just WTFpwn Shimmra with indirect force attacks. There is no way that Shimmra would be able kill Ragnos, because Ragnos could have himself cloaked within mass numbers of illusions.

1. Then we give Shimrra the basics of the yammosk technology which would see right through illusions-as most Vong artificial eyes have-

And then there's the detail most illusions require concentration

That, plus, Shimrra could just have a razor bug fly through all the illusions until it hit something. Without concentrating, Ragnos' illusions would be gone. Then he gets a beat down.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Then we give Shimrra the basics of the yammosk technology which would see right through illusions-as most Vong artificial eyes have-

And then there's the detail most illusions require concentration

Erm, proof that this 'yammosk technology' would be capable of seeing through illusions, which are the product of sith magic(something the Vong have never encountered before).

And yes it required Naga Sadows full concentration to create armies, however a couple dozen illusions wouldnt be that difficult at all. Not to mention that Ragnos is more powerful than Sadow.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
That, plus, Shimrra could just have a razor bug fly through all the illusions until it hit something. Without concentrating, Ragnos' illusions would be gone. Then he gets a beat down.

Shimmras weapons can be stopped, through the force.

*insert "O RLY Owl" here*

Well Ragnos has a lot of options. He could raise a barrier using indirect force techniques in order to protect himself from Shimrra's weaponry.

Exar Kun did blast through temple walls with his magics. Ragnos could blast anything Shimrra throws at him with the same type of energy. He was stated to have possessed greater strength in the force than Sadow, and Sadow was the one that made the amulets Kun himself used.



Tell me what happened and detail Corran's skill and speed with a lightsaber.




In Jedi academy Sith swords were demonstrated as resisting straight on saber attacks.

If Ragnos can empower his armour with such magics, I do not think Shimrra can affect him.




Didn't take much time:

http://www.swtimeline.ru/comics/oldrepublic/oldrepublic_03_14.jpg



Even if what you say is true and Ragnos CANNOT sense Shimrra's weaponry, he can rely on indirect means to protect himself, ex., creating barrier around himself.



The ancient Sith were also renknowned for their great strength, and thus were able to generate enough muscular force to move a giant bastard sword at great speeds. Being able to change the momentum and direction of such heavy objects at such correspondingly small amounts of time means that the ancient Sith must have been tremendously strong.



Sadow empowered himself in less than 2 seconds. Why woudln't Ragnos, a Sith Lord who Sadow clearly respected and feared, be able to do so as well?



Ragnos has his own equipment, ie., amulets and can generate means to defend himself against Shimrra's attacks, ie ripping the ground from underneath Shimrra's feat, hurling boulders to deter Shimrra.

Originally posted by zephiel7
Ragnos has his own equipment, ie., amulets and can generate means to defend himself against Shimrra's attacks, ie ripping the ground from underneath Shimrra's feat, hurling boulders to deter Shimrra.

Haha, he can do those things all of a sudden?
1) Ragnos has demonstrated the ability to do none of that.
2) Shimrra could easily move out of the way, he's fast as all hell.
3) Sadow, someone we can agree is at least in the same group as Ragnos, when in a duel, managed to throw a single brick with the force as an attack, nothing impressive at all.
4) Amulet blasts, uber or not, are direct force attacks. They'll effect Vong, along with their technology to no degree. This means thud bugs, blast bugs, and plasma eels would all hit Ragnos... yup, in the face. Also:
- Ragnos has never shown us any use of force powers... at all.
- Ragnos has never shown to have this type of amulet.

OH, yes, it'll REALLY occur to Ragnos to do that in /2 seconds. A 'barrier'...you've got this from WHERE? Oh, there's proof Ragnos could do the same thing as Exar. None? Ok then. Oh, and considering that's force enrgy, how can it work on Vong tech?

Oh, wow! Vong armor and weapons are resistant to sabers, too. And none of that'll save Ragnos from being constricted or having something tossed at his unprotected face.

Shedao was matching Corran Horn, who's only one of the best Jedi of the order. Nuff said.


And no, Vengeance. Vong tech is unaffected by the force. period. And it still requires concentration to create illusions, so sorry. And yeah, yammosks see through illusions. Period. As the force can't affect them, they see right through it.


Proof Ragnos can create a barrier and that it'd block something Yuuzhan Vong as NOTHING of theirs is affected by a dark sider?

Oh, two seconds, wow! One more than it'd take for a razor bug to slice his head in two.

And yes, in the time it takes for Ragnos to focus for those attacks-which'll occur to him immediately how? He'll have an amphistaff through his face.

No offense Lightsnake, but, I like my rebuttle more than yours. Hmph.

Ragnos was feared by Sadow. Sadow was able to carry a 200lbs + worth of bricks using the force and hurl it effortlessly at Kressh. Oh lets not forget that this is the same Sadow that was able to cause a star to go Supernova as well as develop techniques that can blast through the armour of ancient Sith Worms and tear through temple walls.




And so is a force enhanced Sith Lord who has defeated a master sith magician and ruled a civilization where only the strong thrive.



He was able to cause a star go Supernova as well as develop techniques that can blast through the armour of ancient Sith Worms and tear through temple walls.



So you assume that a race that had the power to develop techniques that include giant blasts of highly volatile force energy and capability of destroying stars could not erect a simple barrier? That is illogical. It is basically a more complicated version of force telekinesis, but it can be done considering all things the ancient sith were capable of.



We have seen techniques used by Exar Kun and Naga Sadow, both of whom were weaker than Ragnos.



He did, and even if he did not that only proves my point even more that Ragnos would win. Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh, even with their gizmos, still desperately feared him.

I'd LOVE to see where you got that number...he tossed a brick, wow! NOTHING we haven't seen basic force users do!

LOVE to see where you got that 'master magician' BS from. I also want to know how Ragnos won.

Ooooh, no, sorry, his SHIP made the star go supernova...its 'electrical weapon'...and no, Exar first used that blast. Irrelevant as it wouldn't work on Shimrra.

Prove this barrier existed or drop the argument. Prove it could affect something force users are incapable of affecting. Ok? Ok.

Erm, according to ragnos's creator, Exar>Ragnos. Why do people keep ignoring this?

Prove Ludo feared Ragnos. Naga didn't seem to care as he was too busy with his experiments and Ludo adored him. There was no fear from Ludo. Prove Ragnos had that kind of amulet and that that blast wasn't unique to Exar

Ragnos isn't the God you think he is, got it? Tom Veitch confirmed Palpatine's knowledge>The Ancients. Marka is an overrated, overhyped enigma and hardly the godly fighter/force user you think he is.

Lord Simus was a master sith alchemist and magician. Ragnos still leveled him and reduced him to a head.

Nonetheless Simus managed to sustain himself. Really, you would argue that Ragnos defeating a figure that possessed such power is not an accomplishment?




Proof that it was his ship, considering it was his eyes and amulets glowing with the power of the darkside when he generated the electrical energy required to cause a STAR to go supernova.

http://www.swtimeline.ru/comics/oldrepublic/oldrepublic_11_18.jpg



And you are missing the point. If Sadow could use this ability to destroy stars and Kun could use his ability to create giant blasts of volatile force energy, then do you think that indirectly erecting a simple barrier is a lot of hard work?



Use the force to indirectly create a barrier.... Raise the eart beneath him to cover him from fire. Ragnos did not remain a Sith Lord in an age where the strong ruled because because he was slow.



I wan't to see the proof. No offense, but I have seen plenty of evidence to support that desperate debators will resort the little white lie or twisting the truth.



Let us see, even when Ragnos was sick from old age, Ludo and Sadow still refused to defeat Ragnos. Yes this is considering an age where defeating a Sith Lord would bring untold renokwn to any capable of doing so.

If Sadow was able to kill Kressh, he would do it to establish his worthiness.

Also how do you come to the conclusion that Kressh adored Ragnos? In a civilization where hatred and fear are the primary forces of existance, why would Kressh love?



Analyze the facts. Sadow made the amulets that Kun used. Ragnos was superiour to Sadow, as the latter was too scared to kill Ragnos even while the DLOTS was unwell.



I would like to see Tom come to the forums, and tell it to me directly, then I'll believe you. Like I said, I wan't to see the proof. "No offense snake, but I have seen plenty of evidence to support how desperate debators will resort to the little white lie or twisting the truth."

Prove Simus was a master anything? No? Ok.
A random priestess was sustained as a head, too...point being?

Proof it was his ship> Chronology, weapons and technology, DS Sourcebook...and oh yeah, barriers that've never been shown before and wouldn't work with Vong tech anyways are so connected, wow!

This is just getting SAD...proof he can raise earth as a barrier BEFORE this projectile hits him? It'll take time...and a force barrier wouldn't work....you know, THE FORCE DOESN'T WORK ON THE YUUZHAN VONG.

Oh, give me a ****ing break...I posted the emails here several times. Nai's seen them, Escape's seen them, Traya's seen them...this is just a case of...what's the word....denial?

Right, prove Ragnos was sick with old age. And look at Ludo's dialogue, kay?He idoloizes Ragnos, even when he's dead he praises his name. And prove Sadow could kill Kressh, a more politically powerful Sith Lord with full support and patronage from Marka? mmmhmm, I thought so.

Prove Ragnos was unwell. Prove he died of old age. Prove his death was expected. Right, more BS

http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?image=image3ix7.jpg

HM!
I've shot Ragnos to hell and back, he's not all that and ninety nine percent of the bullshit about him is based on outright falsehoods

Originally posted by Lightsnake



And no, Vengeance. Vong tech is unaffected by the force. period. And it still requires concentration to create illusions, so sorry. And yeah, yammosks see through illusions. Period. As the force can't affect them, they see right through it.



Sith magic is an unknown property, that doesnt work like normal force attacks. Like I said before, it would require little concentration to make only a few dozen illusions. It seems you just completely ignored my argument.

Oh great, Yammosk technology can see through illusions simply because you say it does. Great argument.

He was a dlots who existed in a time where only the strongest lived. He used his powers in the force to sustain himself as a head.



Explain why other more powerful force users such as Darth Vader, darth maul, and Dooku could not use their powers to sustain themselves, unless this random sith witch possesses greater strength than all of Palpatine's apprentices. Oh I guess the technique is not as easy to replicate as you initially assumed.



Which contradicts with the two sources of information that have been shown to us as well! I have first hand evidence to support the truth behind my claims. The scan I showed where Sadow was generating the energy required to destroy the star via himself and in tales of the Jedi comic strip where Sadow was shown to have destroyed the star by himself as well. You cannot come to the conclusion that it was his ship, since according first hand from the comics, it was not so.



Of course, because if he was able evoke fear in people who could generate beams of energy and destroy stars, he could not create a barrier from the ground underneath him. Nor is he able to dodge simple projectiles . Right lightsnake, please friend, don't be daft.




Why would he not be able to dodge the projectile? How did Luke dodge all these things? How did Luke manage to pull out of it alive. Ohhh it becomes clear now! He used the force!



You mentioned that Palpatine was the most powerful by ROTS, which was flat out untrue. Why should I believe this?



Ludo praised Ragnos because he was afraid of him. You're deductions are far from being logical. Are you saying DLOTS Ludo Kressh valued love and kindness? Oh look everyone, Lightsnake is saying in an age of hatred and fear, Ludo was driven by kindness. Ludo is driven by hatred, ambition and fear. His honeyed words are if anything, a result of his desperate fear of Ragnos, even after death!

Please argue with the picture. They are both frightened of Ragnos, even while the Sith Lord is all but a phantom

http://www.swtimeline.ru/comics/oldrepublic/oldrepublic_03_18.jpg




Let's see... Being feared by both Sadow and Kressh while they were fighting, and also said to have ruled for over a century. They were both bowing to Ragnos when he appeared as a ghost, and Ludo was scared enough to observe the proper burial rights.





Only in YOUR mind Lighsnake.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Prove Simus was a master anything? No? Ok.
A random priestess was sustained as a head, too...point being?

Proof it was his ship> Chronology, weapons and technology, DS Sourcebook...and oh yeah, barriers that've never been shown before and wouldn't work with Vong tech anyways are so connected, wow!

This is just getting SAD...proof he can raise earth as a barrier BEFORE this projectile hits him? It'll take time...and a force barrier wouldn't work....you know, THE FORCE DOESN'T WORK ON THE YUUZHAN VONG.

Oh, give me a ****ing break...I posted the emails here several times. Nai's seen them, Escape's seen them, Traya's seen them...this is just a case of...what's the word....denial?

Right, prove Ragnos was sick with old age. And look at Ludo's dialogue, kay?He idoloizes Ragnos, even when he's dead he praises his name. And prove Sadow could kill Kressh, a more politically powerful Sith Lord with full support and patronage from Marka? mmmhmm, I thought so.

Prove Ragnos was unwell. Prove he died of old age. Prove his death was expected. Right, more BS

http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?image=image3ix7.jpg

HM!
I've shot Ragnos to hell and back, he's not all that and ninety nine percent of the bullshit about him is based on outright falsehoods

Is that email supposed to mean anything? Lol. Tom Veitch thinks it was Lucas' intention ?

And your arguments are getting ridiculous. Your asking us to prove that Ragnos is capable of a simple force barrier? When his inferior Sadow was capable of creating vast armies from his imagination, and blowing up stars?

Not like this is hard. Big deal, we see weakling Sith Lords a lot and a minor priestess sustains herself as a head. Next feat! And proof it wasn't Sith biology. Now.

It contradicts nothing, sorry! Electrical weapon, that's canon and you have NO defense except what you believe so give it up. The canon has spoken and you, sir, are wrong. States it was an electrical weapon and Sith technology and you've got your interpretation, END OF STORY.

Prove barriers exist. Now.

Because Luke's much stronger than Marka, probably faster and better period. Oh, and Luke thought he could've gone farther if he used the Force to push himself.

Actually the New Essential Chronology states that by ROTS, Sidious WAS the strongest Dark Lord. I posted the email for you, so right now, you have nothing.

Proof Ludo was afraid of him. Ludo berates Naga for disrespecting Ragnos and shows nothing but praise and worship of him, Nothing approaching fear. Oh, and Naga badmouths Ragnos when he's a ghost, yeah, THAT'S fear!

I'm sorry, I think I asked you to prove Ludo was scared and how Ragnos died. You've failed in both respects. Ludo never shows any fear. Even when Ragnos is long buried he continues to praise him. Where's the fear? That's RIGHT, it doesn't exist! And afraid? sadow tells him to go away and let them solve their own problems and when he's gone says it takes more than a ghost to make him forget emnities....that's reeeeal fear.

And nope, sorry, your god's not all you've made him out to be and HIS CREATORS are siding against you...sorry.

and Lol, shut your fanboy mouth, Vengeance. tom also said Yoda is definitely on top next to Exar and the Ancients. I think I'll trust him, especially as he worked with Lucas. And Yammosks are stated to see through illusions and the force. They can even detect force sensitives. Wait...could this mean your gods of the Ancients just AREN'T all that?

and time to prove this force barrier exists and can affect the Vong, kids!

Originally posted by Lightsnake


and Lol, shut your fanboy mouth, Vengeance. tom also said Yoda is definitely on top next to Exar and the Ancients. I think I'll trust him, especially as he worked with Lucas. And Yammosks are stated to see through illusions and the force. They can even detect force sensitives. Wait...could this mean your gods of the Ancients just AREN'T all that?



Im no fanboy, I dont even like the ancients. But when you guys start saying that Shimmra would defeat Ragnos, thats where I draw the line.

"Is that email supposed to mean anything? Lol. Tom Veitch thinks it was Lucas' intention ?"

Its specifically stated that Yammosks can see through sith magic and illusions? RLY? Give us the proof if you have it.

Umm, they see through force illusions. Crack open the guide to alien species. They also detect force sensitives. Pretty sure they do this a few times in the Luceno books, too.
More to the point, why would Ragnos be able to do this? It takes time to call out illusions, which is where Quey'Tek comes in...you need to affect an opponent's mind with the force

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Umm, they see through force illusions. Crack open the guide to alien species. They also detect force sensitives. Pretty sure they do this a few times in the Luceno books, too.
More to the point, why would Ragnos be able to do this? It takes time to call out illusions, which is where Quey'Tek comes in...you need to affect an opponent's mind with the force

WTF?



Quey'Tek is force concealment. It has nothing to do with illusions. I dont see why getting into Shimmras mind would be necessary, because the illusions arent just illusions, Sadow made them real.

Umm, no he didn't. You can't make illusions real...they're just illusions.
And illusions tend to take time. Shimrra isn't going to be watching politely

It's funny how you fail to mention that if the ability is so easy, why wouldn't other powerful Sith Lords (all of whom I am certain are stronger than this priestess) replicate the feat?

Hold on, you are making an assumption that it was Sith Biology, and now you are asking me to prove it! No no no no Lightsnake, you have got it all wrong. You prove to ME.

Even if it is sith biology, *bling bling Ragnos* you win! You are able to survive wounds that would easily have felled Skywalker or Sidious.



Right Lightsnake, deny the fact that the comic strips are also canon... Of course, whatever Lightsnake pulls out must be official canon! Sadow glows with the dakside and energy is generated to destroy a star. Other holocrons further prove that it was by Sadow, not his ship.



You want me to prove whether Jedi cannot re-arrange materials with telekenisis. I reccommend you go out and watch a movie called "Star Wars "



Asserted AND unproven.



Convienient that Kevin J Anderson states that it was not a direct reference to force abilities.



Lightsnake, you are not talking logically. I have asked before and I ask again: why would Kressh value love?

I love how you haven't addressed my point

Are you saying DLOTS Ludo Kressh valued love and kindness? . Ludo is driven by hatred, ambition and fear. His honeyed words are if anything, a result of his desperate fear of Ragnos, even after death!





I have but it seems you did not understand. If I repeat it enough, maybe you will decide to read it.

Let's see... Being feared by both Sadow and Kressh while they were fighting, and also said to have ruled for over a century. They were both bowing to Ragnos when he appeared as a ghost, and Ludo was scared enough to observe the proper burial rights.

Not to mention evidence by Traya on the matter, a Jedi historian who actually lived 1000 years after the events of the great hyperspace war (and Ragnos). Show me proof that Ragnos was actually killed by someone. Otherwise, address my point on why the two stopped dueling when Ragnos appeared, and also why they were bowing.




Right so he was driven by love... I suppose the entire basis behind the Sith is wrong because lightsnake wants to win an argument.



He puts away his sword, and bows down. Furthermore he appears frightened. Afterwards he shuts up and listens to Ragnos.



LOL you are calling me a Ragnos fanboy when you are clearly in love with Sidious? Keep it up Snake.





I love how this guy does not seem to listen to the fact that I said Ragnos can create an indirect barrier. Vengeance brings up a point about illusions, tell me exactly how would Shimrra be able to see through it?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Umm, no he didn't. You can't make illusions real...they're just illusions.
And illusions tend to take time. Shimrra isn't going to be watching politely

http://www.swtimeline.ru/comics/oldrepublic/oldrepublic_10_07.jpg

The material begs to differ. And like I said before, a few dozen illusions wont take very much concentration at all.

OH, right...mmhmm. Once again, this's been done before. And possibly because Simus had time to set it up before he died. Like Dathka Graush.

Noone claimed the comic wasn't canon. There's no contradiction. Your interpretation is wrong and the canon says what happened. so end of story.

Prove barriers exist

Oh, right...you mean I was just talking to TV about power, I ask him how Yoda stacks up and he says Yoda is definitely on top, two sources call Palpatine the strongest sith in history by ROTS (DE sbk and NEC_ You have,...what exactly? When asked who the STORNGEST Sith Lord is, KJA said Palpatine and Exar would have to fight....hmmm

Y'know, prove to me NOW that love was alien to the ancients. Ragnos was described as being admired, Simus clearly cared for Naga and Ludo WORSHIPPED Ragnos. Simus's first concern after a big attack? "Naga Sadow, old friend! Are you hurt?"
The Sith MOURN Simus's death, did you miss that? Maybe you miss how Ludo, when having no reason to be fearful of Marka when he's DEAD respects and honors him, furiously rebuking Naga for defiling his memory...or how the Sith race worshipped and loved King Adas...

Gimmie a break, fear? Prove it was fear. Now.

And when Ragnos is gone, Sadow basically says he WON'T listen to him, Wow, THAT'S fear, especially when Naga pretty much tells
Marka to go away and let them fight. And when'd I say Ludo was driven by love? I just said he worshipped, admired and loved MArka and NOTHING shows he was scared of Marka. Everytime he mentions Marka, it's with admiration.
"Great Marka Ragnos, wear this helmet during your battles in the afterlife!"
Yep, real fearful.
"You'd destroy everything Marka Ragnos built! YOU SHAME HIS MEMORY!"

Oh, I only have evidence, author opinions and official sources on my side...as opposed to the king of conjecture.

Lesse, we give Shimrra yammosk tech through Onimi's mentality, he'll see through force illusions. Marka'll create them in the middle of a fight how? How would a barrier affect vong weapons that go through solid stone? Thud and razor bugs?

OH, right...which is why Sadow needs concentration. Sadow;s illusions aren;t real, they're just illusions. Notice how they vanish?
Sadow's clearly saying he's able to manifest what he sees as illusions...remember? A massive bulk of the fleet was composed of illusions.

Great Sith

Originally posted by Lightsnake


OH, right...which is why Sadow needs concentration. Sadow;s illusions aren;t real, they're just illusions. Notice how they vanish?
Sadow's clearly saying he's able to manifest what he sees as illusions...remember? A massive bulk of the fleet was composed of illusions.

Great Sith

Oh yeah LS, they are illusions simply because you say they are, nevermind the actual material. And they vanish because the illusions are only real while Sadow wills it to be so, but that doesnt make them any less real.

Ok, we're gonna have to back this bullshit up! Because every source says they were illusions and Aleema using the same kinda of 'real' illusions are just enough to drive people into shock! Sorry! Real things don't vanish!
Nevermind they're called 'illusions; everywhere else, the Jedi declare the enemy isn't as numerous as they thought, they're called 'fake illusions' everywhere else, Aleema's illusions are called real..

Next!

LS is getting pwned lalalalalalala...........

A moron's contributing nothing, what a shock.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Ok, we're gonna have to back this bullshit up! Because every source says they were illusions and Aleema using the same kinda of 'real' illusions are just enough to drive people into shock! Sorry! Real things don't vanish!
Nevermind they're called 'illusions; everywhere else, the Jedi declare the enemy isn't as numerous as they thought, they're called 'fake illusions' everywhere else, Aleema's illusions are called real..

Next!

Did you completely ignore the comic strip I posted? Let me highlight the important quote, Sadow: " I can visualize vast armies, powerful fleets, invincible warriors...and with my sith arts, my imagination can make them real !"

And again you ignore my arguments, I already explained why illusions vanish.

If his head was severed from his body, in combat against Marka Ragnos, the fact that he could survive after his disembodied state clearly indicates he is stronger than Vader, Dooku, Maul, and several other DLOTS.

Explain why the three afore mentioned Sith Lords, as well as several other great sith lords did not replicate this feat if it were as easy as you say. I am waiting, yet you have never given me a reply.



His arms and eyes were glowing red with energy, afterwards, ligthning erupted outward towards the star. The only purpose of the ship it seems was to bring him near to the star.

You claim that it is my opinion yet it has been shown in another comic with Sadow moving his hands and immediately a star blowing up.



WTF?! I just told you that Ragnos could raise it from the earth... reading comprehension my friend.



KJA explicitly stated that Palpatine was NOT the strongest by ROTS, which you seemed to assert he was. Again, why should I believe your claims that Ragnos was not as strong as he is considered, despite the overwhelming evidence supporting he was (Sadow destroying a star, and also devising techniques to channel volatile blasts of energy)



It is fear. Sweet Jebus, why would a race that worshiped hatred resort to love for figures that held power. Let me guess, Palpatine loved Plageuis as well. It seems to make sense with your logic.



And tell me how this statement even remotely refers to love? I recall Palpatine calling Vader "my friend" on multiple occasions. Also when Anakin was burning to death, Palpatine went through the effort recover his body. Did he love him? HELLS NO.


More like a loss of an asset than actual sorrow. But wait, the ancient Sith valued love above all else. Sorry Snake, I guess you're right



Yet at one point you stated Ludo loved him, and now you state it was respect. Kressh respected Ragnos because he was afraid of him.



Yawn. Kressh, like always, wants to point blame on Sadow.



They respected him for his power, not love. I reccomend you start from block one if you can't understand the simple fact that Sith DESPISE love.



I detect ignorance in this life form. Hmmm, I have repeated it a hundred times but you still do not wish to listen I see. They both stop what they are doing, they STFU, and listen to what Ragnos has to say. They bow down in fear:

http://www.swtimeline.ru/comics/oldrepublic/oldrepublic_03_21.jpg

Neither of them were willing to kill Ragnos at a time where such things were common (Ragnos killed Simus)



Wow, now that is a lie if I ever heard one. He asks why Ragnos has appeared, and then he bows. He never tells Ragnos to go away.

Ragnos tells them to "fight the proper battles." That is interpreted by Sadow in different way than kressh. When does he tell Ragnos to go away?



If he admired and feared Ragnos, then it proves my point that he was afraid of battling him. This the Sith we are talking about, you know the same belief where strong overcomes wea



He was observing the proper burial rites so that he could build enough repute to become the new grand DLOTS. It states that he wants to become DLOTS.



This is getting ridiculous lightsnake. You are not accounting for the fact that Kressh was a conservative Sith who was by the book. If he had a chance to point blame at Sadow, he WOULD have.





Right, how about you bring all the authors here instead of giving your biased interpretations on what they say. I have supplied proof given from the actual comics whereas you state vaguely "Well the authors said this... trust me"



Name an instance where the Vong see through actual sith magic made illusions.




A being feared and respected by two powerful INCREDIBLY powerful Dark Lords, would not be able to create a big enough barrier... Again, your logic never ceases to astound me Snake.



WTF? The illusions are meant to serve as distractions if that is what you mean... They don't really attack...




Once again I ask, WTF? I don't see where you are going with this.

That's fascinating. real as in tanginble can kill people real or 'real as in people can see them real?'
Aleema's illusions are described as real too and has no tangible effect in the real world, big deal!
And if they're 'real', they shouldn't need Sadow's mental control...unless they're just illusions that can't affect the real world as Sadow just created them to give the appearance of his army being bigger than it was.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
That's fascinating. real as in tanginble can kill people real or 'real as in people can see them real?'
Aleema's illusions are described as real too and has no tangible effect in the real world, big deal!
And if they're 'real', they shouldn't need Sadow's mental control...unless they're just illusions that can't affect the real world as Sadow just created them to give the appearance of his army being bigger than it was.

They are tangible, and can affect people in the real world. Where is it stated that Aleema's illusions are real? You lie so much that its hard to take anything you say for granted. And do I have to say again, that Sadow himself said his illusions are real? And do you really think that the mass slaughter on coruscant was the product of a few troops cloaked in a mass of non-tangible illusions?

Oh, give me a break...Why is it that the illusions vanish then? I recall Aleema's 'real' snakes crushing people...
And what 'mass slaughter?' You're gonna have to back this up! Because all Naga is saying is that he can manifest what he sees! As, y'know, illusions!
Proof they're tangible? Oh, that's right! THEY'RE DESCRIBED AS ILLUSIONS! which IN ITSELF, shoots your ****ing argument to hell.

If they were real, they wouldn't vanish. If they were real, the Jedi wouldn't realize the Sith fleet was much smaller than they thought. The Chronology says they were just images to give the impression Sadow's army was bolstered.

Lying? No. You're just clinging to a pathetic argument and you've been ripped to shreds. Leave the Ancient Sith worship to people who're better at it than you.

Find me one instance of an illusion killing someone. Now

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, give me a break...Why is it that the illusions vanish then? I recall Aleema's 'real' snakes crushing people...
And what 'mass slaughter?' You're gonna have to back this up! Because all Naga is saying is that he can manifest what he sees! As, y'know, illusions!
Proof they're tangible? Oh, that's right! THEY'RE DESCRIBED AS ILLUSIONS! which IN ITSELF, shoots your ****ing argument to hell.

If they were real, they wouldn't vanish. If they were real, the Jedi wouldn't realize the Sith fleet was much smaller than they thought. The Chronology says they were just images to give the impression Sadow's army was bolstered.

Lying? No. You're just clinging to a pathetic argument and you've been ripped to shreds. Leave the Ancient Sith worship to people who're better at it than you.

Find me one instance of an illusion killing someone. Now

http://www.swtimeline.ru/comics/oldrepublic/oldrepublic_09_11.jpg


This army is mostly non-tangible, right LS?

You have a point here? Many of the ships were illusions, too. We see some fading when Sadow's concentration is broken.

And I'm sure the people are noticing which ones spawn how many troops and which ones stir up dust

Originally posted by Lightsnake
You have a point here? Many of the ships were illusions, too. We see some fading when Sadow's concentration is broken.

And I'm sure the people are noticing which ones spawn how many troops and which ones stir up dust

Give me a break, do we ever see any troops that are fighting, but have no tangible affect?

Do you remember what happened with Aleema's illusions? The mind tricked the soldiers...most went into catatonic shock from being 'strangled'

And I'm really sure, with probably enough real Massassi in the front, the Coruscant forces had time to figure it out

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Do you remember what happened with Aleema's illusions? The mind tricked the soldiers...most went into catatonic shock from being 'strangled'

And I'm really sure, with probably enough real Massassi in the front, the Coruscant forces had time to figure it out

They never figure it out, until Sadows concentration is broken and the illusions actually start disappearing. On the battlefield, for all intents and purposes, they were real. And it would be the same situation if Ragnos was fighting Shimmra.

They were real for all intents and purposes when Aleema used them, too, big deal.

Prove Ragnos can and would use them. Nothing a plasma eel wouldn't deal with. Let alone be dispelled with a yammosk