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Which would win?

Hmmm. Traya can wield three sabers at once which will give her a significant advantage. Quite possibly enough to overwhelm the Count. But I dont know enough about her to make an accurate decision.

*Waits for Traya Fanboys*

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Hmmm. Traya can wield three sabers at once which will give her a significant advantage. Quite possibly enough to overwhelm the Count. But I dont know enough about her to make an accurate decision.



Well seeing as the Exile defeated them I think the Count will as well. He could sap them with lightning or sweep them with the force or something....

Traya has shown a remarkable mastery of the force(defeating jedi masters like nothing). I would give this to Traya, IMHO, though there is no basis for an accurate conclusion.

I would also tend to go for Traya. She seems to have a better command of the force, having thrown away three Jedi masters with no difficulty. Her instantkill as well could work to her advantage.

The count is no pushover though, but I would say Traya.

I think Dooku could easily contend with - and possibly defeat - Traya in a lightsaber duel. But, she tops him in the Force by a large degree, so I'd give it to her.

Well then, it depends where the battle takes place. If it is in a small area and Dooku can force a lightsaber fight then he has a good chance of victory. However if they started a fair distance apart, Traya could use her superior force abilities to defeat the Count.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Well then, it depends where the battle takes place. If it is in a small area and Dooku can force a lightsaber fight then he has a good chance of victory. However if they started a fair distance apart, Traya could use her superior force abilities to defeat the Count.

hey I agree with that.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Well then, it depends where the battle takes place. If it is in a small area and Dooku can force a lightsaber fight then he has a good chance of victory. However if they started a fair distance apart, Traya could use her superior force abilities to defeat the Count.

Erm... no.

Dooku is perhaps equal to Traya in lightsaber ability... but she can wave her hand, drain the Force from him to such a degree, and leave him for dead.

Originally posted by Escape81
Erm... no.

Dooku is perhaps equal to Traya in lightsaber ability... but she can wave her hand, drain the Force from him to such a degree, and leave him for dead.

Thats what I mean. If they were forced to duel with sabers then Dooku has a fairly good chance at winning. He would keep the pressure on her so that she couldnt use the force. However if they started a long way apart from each other then Traya could just force drain Dooku and win.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Thats what I mean. If they were forced to duel with sabers then Dooku has a fairly good chance at winning. He would keep the pressure on her so that she couldnt use the force. However if they started a long way apart from each other then Traya could just force drain Dooku and win.

It requires a lot of room for one to wave one's hand?

Nah.

If it were just a lightsaber duel, I'd say that Dooku has a 50 - 65% chance of winning. A Force duel? 03%. An all out fight? 30-40%.

I say Traya takes this. She can wield three lightsabers at once using the Force to make them float in the air. If her lightsabers arn't enough to take Tyranus out then her Force Drain will do the job.

Originally posted by Escape81


If it were just a lightsaber duel, I'd say that Dooku has a 50 - 65% chance of winning. A Force duel? 03%. An all out fight? 30-40%.

I agree with these odds. But I would probably give Dooku a 60 - 70% chance of victory with a saber. I mean he is the self proclaimed Makashi master after all...

Wait her instakill always works?

Doesn't she need the exile for it to work, or not?

If she can just use her drain thing, then, no crap she would win, but, in a lightsaber fight, the count would beat her down, and, in a force battle, I don't see Traya having a significant advantage if any at all. She couldn't kill Dooku with the force, and, Dooku would enter lightsaber combat and kill her.

Personally I would give it to Lord Tyranus

Yes Traya was a lord of the Sith, and a very powerful one, but she was not nearly as strong as the Exile. (ANd since the exile had force bonds, is it not possible that a lot of her power came from there. Sion and Nihilus took her out pretty easily remember)

Tyranus was a Lord of the Sith almost as cunning and manipulative as his Mentor Sidious.

Tyranus learned under Yoda who had an extra 1000 years or so of knowledge on Kreia as a Jedi, and Sidious who had the same on Traya.

Remember, Anakin was still a very powerful Jedi in AOTC and so was Obi Wan and Tyranus pwned them both. Only Yoda (and I hesitate to say this as it ended in standoff, but probably in the long run) defeated Tyranus.

Personally, Yoda would have Pwned Traya without a doubt, as that was the kind of Sith that the Jedi remembered. Sidious trained and learned and evolved the Sith, the Jedi stagnated.

Tyranus owns Traya

Tyranus doesn't really have a weak spot, he's good all around.

He was trained by both Yoda and Sidious, has mastered Makashi, and shown us some decent force powers.

Traya... well... one time she got me stuck in a wall, and then outside the map on Telos...

If Yoda could say to Tyranus, Much to learn you still have even after Tyranus has been educated by the ultimate Jedi and the Ultimate Sith (canon) then Traya would be far behind.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Traya has shown a remarkable mastery of the force(defeating jedi masters like nothing). I would give this to Traya, IMHO, though there is no basis for an accurate conclusion.

Yes Traya showed a remarkable mastery of the force

But as stated, how much power was her and how much was a result of the force bond that she shared with the Exile

Originally posted by Archangelysses
Yes Traya showed a remarkable mastery of the force

But as stated, how much power was her and how much was a result of the force bond that she shared with the Exile

Why assume this? Why would Traya's power with the force be linked to the Exile?

Not an assumption

We know they had a force bond, we also know from on game conversations that the exiles bonds strengthened those around her

My only question is how much of Traya's Power can be attributed to this bond

Originally posted by Archangelysses
Not an assumption

We know they had a force bond, we also know from on game conversations that the exiles bonds strengthened those around her

My only question is how much of Traya's Power can be attributed to this bond

Really, I read that the Exile's bond inspired others and forced them to follow him/her. When the Exile did something, others had to follow.

Traya was able to tear down thirteen well trained dark Jedi without moving (after being lightyears away from the Exile...)

Hmmm. Im going to have to agree with Archangelysses. Ill try not to have a biased opinion when I argue this though...

If Traya can pull off instakill then Dooku loses. Its as simple as that. But, if Dooku can get into a lightsaber duel he would win with relative ease. Dooku has mastered, perfected and modified Makashi - the style that is bred for duelling. On top of this he has been trained by both Yoda and Sidious - two of the greatest force wielders of all time. He has also fought Yoda on two occasions and met him blow for blow and managed to esape with his life both times.

Force power is harder to compare. What we do know is that Dooku has extensive knowledge of both sides of the force and again has been trained by Yoda and Sidious, two of the greatest force wielders of all time. He can not only shoot lightning with his hands but block it with his hands also. He has effortlessly ripped down solid concrete rooves, metal generators and steel balconies - and that is only from the movies. And on top of all this, his fighting style leaves one hand free at all times. So while fighting he always has an available hand to use the force.

With all this in mind Dooku will win as long as Traya doesnt pull of her instakill ability. But I think Dooku is smart enough to force a lightsaber duel before she will be able to do that.

Everyone is making a big deal of Traya's Instakill ability, which considering she was part of the Sith prior to Sidious, then it is very probable and extremely likely that Sidious knew all about this power, Considering that Sidious was the end game of the Sith plan for revenge since Darth Bane.

If Sidious knew about it, then it is quite probable that Tyranus would know about it. I personally believe that since that power existed then and was knew, by the time it comes to ROTS both the Jedi and the Sith are more than aware of it and would have prepared a defence against it.

Tyranus would Pwn Traya, in lightsaber combat and also in force power.

People please remember that "Dooku" is a Dark Lord of the Sith and therefore should be called by his proper name LORD TYRANUS. We don't see anyone calling Vader Anakin now do we

Originally posted by Archangelysses
Everyone is making a big deal of Traya's Instakill ability, which considering she was part of the Sith prior to Sidious, then it is very probable and extremely likely that Sidious knew all about this power, Considering that Sidious was the end game of the Sith plan for revenge since Darth Bane.

No, that speculation. Traya's attack doesn't seem to be a conventional force drain insamuch as she gives an entire speech on how she's going to make them see Malachor V through the eyes of the Exile.

Coupled with the entire fact that Traya makes it clear that the technique that they learned at Malachor cannot be learnt, and the fact that she states that it's a technique "from which there is no defence"; I don't think Sidious would have known how to have utilised it.



^

As above. It's made clear that you can't learn it.



Speculation, non? We don't have any canonical information on the extent of Kreia's lightsabre abilities.

It's also fairly silly to go state that Tyranus will take down Traya in force combat, when we've seen Traya demonstrate quite potent abilities.

I'm not downplaying Dooku, far from it. He was a beast in the force, and a very potent force user. But we've seen Kreia demonstrate quite potent powers too. The technique that she uses on the Jedi Council? Considering that Traya makes it clear that there's no defense against the technique, I'm doubtful as to whether or not he could survive it.

Then we have the fact that she's demonstrated fairly powerful force pushes, as seen at the rebuilt enclave, where she effectively demolishes the three Jedi Masters. We've got Vrook, the de facto leader of the order, Kavar; the weapon master and Zez Kai-Ell. She floors them without the least sign of exertion, and then floor Vrook again!

All in all, it'll be a nice and furious fight. I can see Traya coming out victorious eventually.

Originally posted by Swirly Girl
No, that speculation. Traya's attack doesn't seem to be a conventional force drain insamuch as she gives an entire speech on how she's going to make them see Malachor V through the eyes of the Exile.

Coupled with the entire fact that Traya makes it clear that the technique that they learned at Malachor cannot be learnt, and the fact that she states that it's a technique "from which there is no defence"; I don't think Sidious would have known how to have utilised it.

Yes, she learned the power due to the destruction of Malachor V, however since using this attack, which at the time was new and unheard of, which is fair for her to say then that there is no defence, would it not be reasonable to suggest that the Jedi would have then spent time researching the cause, ability, and how to defend against this.

We are talking the passage of 1000 years or so, science and tech and force understanding would have undergone radical changes in that period. Things previously thought impossible would/could have been realised.

I honestly don't think that the Jedi would have not researched this more fully to protect themselves from it happening again. (IF they ever give us a KOTOR III we may get more info on this)

Also considering that Sidious was a major history buff when it came to Sith artefact, technology, alchemy and events, it is more than reasonable to believe that he would have researched into this. Sidious figured out how to create force storms, then it's feasible (but not proveable) that he may also have come to understand the ability and how to manage it.

Apart from really this one unstoppable power (At the time only - as we have no definitive proof that KOTOR II and ROTS that a defence was not realised) Kreia/Traya did not display any other uber force power.

Originally posted by Archangelysses
Yes, she learned the power due to the destruction of Malachor V, however since using this attack, which at the time was new and unheard of, which is fair for her to say then that there is no defence, would it not be reasonable to suggest that the Jedi would have then spent time researching the cause, ability, and how to defend against this.

It's a fair idea, but it's still speculation. There's no elaboration on the idea in canon sources, and it's effectively your opinion on the matter; which no matter how well informed or sound, doesn't count.



^

Again, speculation.



Again, speculation. Indeed, whilst KotOR III might elaborate on it; until then, we're in the dark.



I shouldn't think so. Just because he worked out how to use force storms, doesn't mean that he'll be able to find out about the abilities ins and outs. It is - regrettably - speculation.



Not uber? Did my eyes decieve me when I saw her floor, Kavar, Vrook - someone who was essentially the de facto leader (!) -, and Zez Ki-Ell?

Or did my mind play tricks on me when Kreia effectively clouded the mind of Micel to the point where he didn't know that Kreia was on board the Ebon Hawk? Did you miss those cutscenes where she toyed with him?

Or perhaps we can look to the cut content? Where she positively butchers Visas, Mical - or Brianna -, Mira and Atton? Perhaps I lost my sight when I saw fourteen Sith drop to the ground *dead* around her after a brief hiatus of a few seconds and a blackout?

She has displayed quite admirable ability with the force, and she is capable of going head to head with Tyranus.

Agreed it is speculation, which is what quite a lot of the debates are.

Yes she dropped sith assassins, and force swept 3 jedi masters prior to the life/force/instakill. We know that Tyranus also eliminated several Jedi during the clone wars. One of them was Master Sifo Dyas. But that is beside the point.

The sith assassins (I don't recall there being any definitive proof of how powerful they were) could have been a pushover or not - again I know Speculation (Saving you the time of pointing it out)

Clouding the minds of the companions, for her age and experience should not have been too difficult - we know when she was Kreia that she had access to the Jedi Library at the time to learn the techniques.

But as always this entire thread is speculation. IMO Traya would beat Darth Maul, but and it is only my deduction based on the information available that Tyranus would have won the fight with her. Albeit not without difficulty

Originally posted by Archangelysses
Agreed it is speculation, which is what quite a lot of the debates are.

But to establish a position on whether or not character x is superior to character y, we need to back our opinions up with facts.

If we don't have facts - or canonical observations in the SW mythos - we can't make informed and correct decisions on the power held by the characters in question.



Indeed. But that is besides the point. Whilst Tyranus may have defeated Jedi Masters before - he did pretty much K.O Sora Bulq with a single lightning strain -, will he be able to take down Traya; who has done the same?



That's a good point. We don't know how powerful they were, so I'll leave that out of my arguments from now on.



That's non sequitur. Coleman Trebor had access to the libraries, but he was gunned down by Jango Fett.

Whether or not she had access to the archives is a moot point. The fact is, she learnt the power and used it to a fair degree of adeptness.

That's like somehow trying to diminish Sidious or Yoda because they had access to collective Sith (or Jedi) knowledge.

It's not so much as where you get the power from, as how you use it. And Traya used it fairly effectively.



No, the thread is based on providing factual basis for statements.



^

Statements like that neither provide proof for why Dooku would defeat Traya, let alone pwn her.

Please, lay down some reasons that have factual grounding; or there's no purpose in debating whatsoever.

I haven't read the terms of this fight and perhaps I should.. In lightsaber combat the most Traya has shown was the 3 sabers against the exile. She does not however, specialize in saber combat, so in that area Dooku has her. On the other hand, she is superior to Dooku in force knowledge. This has been proven from her dropping sith assassins(again, obviously push overs or not), to dropping Jedi Masters. Her knowledge in the force far exceeds that of Dooku's. Yes I realize Dooku had Adas' holocron I believe, but I have yet to see him possess superior force skills/ancient sith techniques.

'Yes I realize Dooku had Adas' holocron I believe'

It wasn't Adas', it was some other sith lords'.

Andeddu's, I believe.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I haven't read the terms of this fight and perhaps I should.. In lightsaber combat the most Traya has shown was the 3 sabers against the exile. She does not however, specialize in saber combat, so in that area Dooku has her. On the other hand, she is superior to Dooku in force knowledge. This has been proven from her dropping sith assassins(again, obviously push overs or not), to dropping Jedi Masters. Her knowledge in the force far exceeds that of Dooku's. Yes I realize Dooku had Adas' holocron I believe, but I have yet to see him possess superior force skills/ancient sith techniques.

We know nothing about her lightsabre abilities. It's pretty silly to make remarks on how powerful she is in combat with a lightsabre, considering that we have no canon information on her skills with the weapon.

That's my point. We know nothing about her saber abilities, we know about Dooku's. We know she was a superior force user, so you're just going to say that because we know nothing about Traya we can't use logical deduction to see who's superior?

Like I said, before.

I believe that Traya's super-Force drain and her considerable Force powers would be enough to overcome Count Dooku in an all-out fight. However, on the subject of their respective lightsaber skills, I'd put Dooku above her in that area alone.

He's got 70+ years of Makashi dueling experience and is a considerable Force user himself.

No, I'm saying that considering the fact that Kreia currently has no sources for her combat abilities, it's silly to speculate on how good she'll be in combat.

Which is why sentences like "z0mg d00kU w1ll pWn Kr31a!!111 1n c0m8at!" just don't make sense.

Not to mention she's a historian, etc. We don't notice Odan Urr having superior saber abilities as that isn't his speciality.

Originally posted by Escape81
Like I said, before.

I believe that Traya's super-Force drain and her considerable Force powers would be enough to overcome Count Dooku in an all-out fight. However, on the subject of their respective lightsaber skills, I'd put Dooku above her in that area alone.

He's got 70+ years of Makashi dueling experience and is a considerable Force user himself.

But how can you make any decision about her lightsabre abilities when we don't have any information whatsoever on them?

The only thing we know about her which would pertain to the combat would be her fairly prodigious force powers, as you've roughly said before.

Well, in all fairness, we have few sources for any KotoR character, and yet several of us argue that most of them are superior to the PT Jedi (which is the "golden age" for lightsaber skills, according to George Lucas).

If we wanted to go on just sheer sources, then we could not accurately put Darth Revan on par with any of the PT boys, though I believe he's on their level (at least).

Originally posted by Escape81
Well, in all fairness, we have few sources for any KotoR character, and yet several of us argue that most of them are superior to the PT Jedi (which is the "golden age" for lightsaber skills, according to George Lucas).

If we wanted to go on just sheer sources, then we could not accurately put Darth Revan on par with any of the PT boys, though I believe he's on their level (at least).

Which is why I don't hold much stock for using people like Revan or Bandon in debates.

You can't determine a character's power - or skill with a lightsabre - if you don't have any sources on the subject, or knowledge, or any kind of indication of their strength with a blade.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Not to mention she's a historian, etc. We don't notice Odan Urr having superior saber abilities as that isn't his speciality.

Yes, but Odan-Urr isn't Kreia. It's a fair statement, but it's not backed up by anything.

Originally posted by Swirly Girl
Which is why I don't hold much stock for using people like Revan or Bandon in debates.

You can't determine a character's power - or skill with a lightsabre - if you don't have any sources on the subject, or knowledge, or any kind of indication of their strength with a blade.

I try to avoid topics regarding Revan, Bandon, Malak, Nihilius, Sion, or any of the Kotor Sith/Jedi, because you're right. Aside from the various in-game comments, you have absolutely nothing to go on.

But in the same token, for all we know, Traya would bite the big one from Dooku - even though I believe otherwise.

Originally posted by Escape81
I try to avoid topics regarding Revan, Bandon, Malak, Nihilius, Sion, or any of the Kotor Sith/Jedi, because you're right. Aside from the various in-game comments, you have absolutely nothing to go on.

But in the same token, for all we know, Traya would bite the big one from Dooku - even though I believe otherwise.

I do somewhat disagree with the last statement. It's entirely possible that Traya is inferior to Dooku in lightsabre combat; and indeed, vice versa.

But we do have accounts of Traya using the force, which indicate that she's fairly powerful. We've got enough information on her force abilities to make an opinion on whether or not she'd best Tyranus.

Hence why I said in the same token.



As I said, it's her Force powers which would most likely give her the ultimate victory.

Originally posted by Escape81
Hence why I said in the same token.



As I said, it's her Force powers which would most likely give her the ultimate victory.

Ah, apologies for my reading comprehension.

As I have said before, if this is just a saber battle, we have nothing on Traya, but we know Dooku is among the best of all time. And by among I mean one of the best. You're right that Traya isn't Odan Urr but at the same time as a historian, it's somewhat logical to assume that she's done nothing but study ancient sith techniques and at the same time does NOT need to be proficient with, nor rely on a lightsaber, because of her superior force powers. Hence the 3 sabers.. If you can do what she did, why even bother learning to master the saber?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
As I have said before, if this is just a saber battle, we have nothing on Traya, but we know Dooku is among the best of all time. And by among I mean one of the best. You're right that Traya isn't Odan Urr but at the same time as a historian, it's somewhat logical to assume that she's done nothing but study ancient sith techniques and at the same time does NOT need to be proficient with, nor rely on a lightsaber, because of her superior force powers. Hence the 3 sabers.. If you can do what she did, why even bother learning to master the saber?

Erm, did you listen to Kreia? Her entire point was that relying on the force too much was folly, hence why she said what she did on Telos to Atton.

Either way, there's no proof either way. So we'll have to really put this into a force match.

Eh I suppose but at the same time, wouldn't you call 3 sabers against the exile relying too much on the force, as opposed to a 1 on 1 battle. And I know that bit she said but my point was, if you do rely too much on the force and if you're very proficient in the force, you don't really need to learn to be a lightsaber master.

agreed, this could only be debated upon force prowess, until we have some form of canon/non-canon information regarding her ability with the saber.

However, her knowledge of the fighting styles and thier uses could be attributed to her academic studies, yet (I Know Speculation) I feel from the choice of words used in her answers to your questions regarding the styles that she has more than a passing ability in each.

Indeed. She does rely on the force too much. At the Trayus Core, she says:

"Or perhaps these are just the ramblings of an old women who has come to rely too much on the thing she despises."

I'd still imagine that she's keep proficiency with a lightsabre.

Originally posted by Archangelysses
agreed, this could only be debated upon force prowess, until we have some form of canon/non-canon information regarding her ability with the saber.

However, her knowledge of the fighting styles and thier uses could be attributed to her academic studies, yet (I Know Speculation) I feel from the choice of words used in her answers to your questions regarding the styles that she has more than a passing ability in each.

I wouldn't say that she had a complete grounding in them, but she does speak of them with a degree of familiarity. It could just be academic grounding.

All of that makes sense and lets say she is somewhat proficient with a saber. Would it equal the skill of 70 years of lightsaber training? I would doubt that.

Well, Kreia has been around for a while too. It's possible that she perfected a sabre form, but it's just speculation. We really need another source on her combat abilities before we can debate a lightsabre fight any further.

How old would she be in KOTOR II? 60-65? She was a young jedi knight during the Sith War so she's pretty old..

It depends whether or not you believe in the Arren Kae = Traya argument. With her hood up, she doesn't look too old. She could be anything from sixety - seventy +. I'd say she's in her sixties.