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Naga Sadow vs. Kyle Katarn & Mara Jade. Both are in their current forms. Who takes this?

Another thread?

Anyways, I'd say if it comes down to a duel, Sadow will probably go down, I mean Katarn alone would be able to do it easily imo. However, with the force Sadow might be able to prevent that.

Originally posted by Sith'ari
Anyways, I'd say if it comes down to a duel, Sadow will probably go down, I mean Katarn alone would be able to do it easily imo. However, with the force Sadow might be able to prevent that.
I agree

Kyle alone could defeat Sadow? LOL...Sadow would curbstomp these two like sorority sluts during initiation.

In a duel, Kyle alone would defeat him, yes.

Thank god you're not a credible source on this forum, that's one of the dumbest things I've heard since being here.

The difference between you and me, DS, is that you consider him intelligent when he's arguing with you, but stupid when he's arguing against you.

My opinion of him is the same, universally.

Now, while Katarn stands a good chance against Sadow in a duel, neither he nor Mara Jade (even together) can defeat Sadow in an all out fight.

Just a question. What does Sadow have to make him good in a force duel against other force users?

Originally posted by kamikz
Just a question. What does Sadow have to make him good in a force duel against other force users?

While Naga Sadow is hardly the most powerful Sith Lord, he is a brilliant Sith alchemist. His nifty inventions make him a force to be reckoned with, and he stalemated Ludo Kressh.

So, while I consider Kun, Palpatine, and Ragnos to be above Sadow, I'm sure he'd win this duel.

Possibly. It may come down to a pure sword fight, and Kyle and Mara are two of the best Jedi duelists around

The NJO is probably the best order of duelists ever, I'd say the second best in that regards would be able to take down Sadow in a pure duel.

Originally posted by Sith'ari
The NJO is probably the best order of duelists ever, I'd say the second best in that regards would be able to take down Sadow in a pure duel.

George Lucas: "the PT is the golden age of the Jedi regarding lightsaber combat". There are many inconsistencies, but Lucas = canon authority.

Well you see, he doesn't say that. He states 'Golden Age of the Jedi', no 'regarding lightsaber combat' added.

Originally posted by Sith'ari
Well you see, he doesn't say that. He states 'Golden Age of the Jedi', no 'regarding lightsaber combat' added.

Well, you see, he does. Ask Motoko.

The reason I would say the NJO was, is because their war against the Vong meant that their use of the force was severey diminished and that they naturally had to rely on saber combat. The fact that they were able to contend with the Vong in blade combat also makes me think that the NJO was impressive in that way.

Originally posted by Escape81
Well, you see, he does. Ask Motoko.

I think you are reffering to 'Prime of the Jedi'.

Originally posted by Escape81
George Lucas: "the PT is the golden age of the Jedi regarding lightsaber combat". There are many inconsistencies, but Lucas = canon authority.

I disagree with your way of looking at the quote. If Jedi are opposed to violence then a time with as little violence as there had ever been would be their golden age. The golden age of the Sith is very different from the golden age of the Jedi. Most NJO- Jedi would stop most PT Jedi.

Exactly.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I disagree with your way of looking at the quote. If Jedi are opposed to violence then a time with as little violence as there had ever been would be their golden age. The golden age of the Sith is very different from the golden age of the Jedi. Most NJO- Jedi would stop most PT Jedi.


You've all seen my theory on the difference between the Golden Age of the Jedi and Golden Age of the sith, so I don't have to repeat that. Now, most NJO Jedi can beat most PT Jedi? If I recall the only one that would take anyone down is NJO Luke. None of the NJO Jedi except Kyp Durron come close to the likes of Windu, Yoda, and Dooku, so I don't agree with that statement..

Oh and Escape, what the hell are you talking about? When did I ever have respect for him and when was he arguing for me? My opinion of people doesn't change, but it's nice to see some hopeless ones have some kind of common sense.

Erm.. Thanks?

No offense to you but you make absolutely make no sense comparing Kyle to an ancient sith.

Why not?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I disagree with your way of looking at the quote. If Jedi are opposed to violence then a time with as little violence as there had ever been would be their golden age. The golden age of the Sith is very different from the golden age of the Jedi. Most NJO- Jedi would stop most PT Jedi.

How the hell can you disagree with how I'm looking at the quote? He said 'in lightsaber ability'. That means that the PT was the strongest point of the Jedi as far as lightsaber ability is concerned. You wanna argue it? Take it up with Lucas.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No offense to you but you make absolutely make no sense comparing Kyle to an ancient sith.

In dueling abilities. How does that make no sense? We all know that the ancient sith relied and worked on their sith magic and alchemy rather than dueling, whereas the NJO mostly relied on their dueling ability because their use of the force was severly diminished by the Vong.
Kyle Katurn was at least the second best duelist in that order. There's not even proof that Sadow was one of the top duelists in his order, especially considering that it seems he spent too much time with sith magic and alchemy (especially), even for a sith.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No offense to you but you make absolutely make no sense comparing Kyle to an ancient sith.

Look, DS, I'd agree that Sadow would win - but I doubt that he would pwn them just a straight up "saber to sword" duel, given Sadow's primary occupation as an "alchemist".

Furthermore, we've already disproven the Ancient > Everyone else theory, as LotF Luke is above any of the Ancient Sith.

In an all out fight, I agree. He could take them. But Katarn and Jade are damn good in lightsaber ability.

The GA of the Jedi was the PT and that was their strongest time until Luke's NJO came around pretty much.

Originally posted by Escape81
How the hell can you disagree with how I'm looking at the quote? He said 'in lightsaber ability'. That means that the PT was the strongest point of the Jedi as far as lightsaber ability is concerned. You wanna argue it? Take it up with Lucas.

Again, he didn't say in regards to saber combat.

"See the Jedi fighting in the Prime of the Jedi."

Originally posted by Lightsnake
The GA of the Jedi was the PT and that was their strongest time until Luke's NJO came around pretty much.

Yes, and with the exception of a few (Luke, Kyp), I'd still put the PT higher.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
"See the Jedi fighting in the Prime of the Jedi."

Well imo that article and video was disregarding the entire EU, as Lucas was basically speaking in a coreographic point of view, which would mean just the films.

Too freaking bad. He doesn't need to give 'regard' to the EU...he says it. It goes

Originally posted by Sith'ari
Well imo that article and video was disregarding the entire EU, as Lucas was basically speaking in a coreographic point of view, which would mean just the films.

No one cares about your opinion. Lucas said that about the PT. Not the NJO. Not KotoR. The Prequel Trilogy. Don't argue canon. Get over it.

The whole article and video was talking about coreography and comparing the OT to the PT in that way. When Lucas stated it, it was also very vague and ambiguous.

Now I'm sorry to say this Escape, but you are turning into Sorgo. I used to look at you as a member similar to someone such as Faunus or Dipsit, but it seems that being a top dog of this forum has gotten to your head.

Originally posted by Escape81
Look, DS, I'd agree that Sadow would win - but I doubt that he would pwn them just a straight up "saber to sword" duel, given Sadow's primary occupation as an "alchemist".

Furthermore, we've already disproven the Ancient > Everyone else theory, as LotF Luke is above any of the Ancient Sith.

In an all out fight, I agree. He could take them. But Katarn and Jade are damn good in lightsaber ability.


Perhaps he wouldn't PWN them in a straight up saber duel considering we know very little about his dueling capabilities. However in terms of overall power he was second to Ragnos, not to mention his physical power was impressive.. And I already said by NJO or probably DN, Luke>All.

Originally posted by Sith'ari
The whole article and video was talking about coreography and comparing the OT to the PT in that way. When Lucas stated it, it was also very vague and ambiguous.

Omg!

Is everything that doesn't support the Ancient Sith or KotoR vague and ambiguous to you? Lucas said that the PT is the prime of the Jedi where lightsaber skills are concerned. He's canon, he's the Star Wars law. He sure as hell blows your opinion out of the water.

Originally posted by Sith'ari
Now I'm sorry to say this Escape, but you are turning into Sorgo. I used to look at you as a member similar to someone such as Faunus or Dipsit, but it seems that being a top dog of this forum has gotten to your head.


If it talks about the Prime of Jedi fighting then it is so. Notice how in TOTJ there were only a few lightsaber prodigies compared to the PT, where there were 5-6.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
If it talks about the Prime of Jedi fighting then it is so. Notice how in TOTJ there were only a few lightsaber prodigies compared to the PT, where there were 5-6.

Thank you.

Originally posted by Sith'ari
The whole article and video was talking about coreography and comparing the OT to the PT in that way. When Lucas stated it, it was also very vague and ambiguous.

Originally posted by Advent
Nebaris, I'm getting quite tired of continuously disproving your ridiculous theories, but for the sake of humanity, I can not allow your lack of capable reasoning to go unanswered to.

He's discussing the choreography for the entire movies, unless you're going to argue that he only wanted the lightsaber duels (and there was only one in TPM) to be "more energized version and a more faster version" in TPM alone, then I suggest you get a grip of reality. You can also use the dialogue he uses to describe the OT, and infer that he means the entire prequel trilogy because of his description of how the PT will differ from the OT.



Yes, to you the following statements are correct, however, to the rest of the world they are wrong.



1.) "Relative peace"? There wasn't even relative peace in TPM itself! Queen Amidala was in danger of getting assassinated, the Trade Federation wanted to seize Naboo, and a huge battle erupted.

2.) How exactly would it make sense for the fights to be "more energized/faster/extravagant/spectacular/etc" if it's in a time of "relative peace"?

3.) You're arguing with the Lucas, logic, and everything in between. As I said before, I suggest you stop.

4.) Instead of me posting the six definitions of "prime" from the dictionary, I'll give it to you from the thesaurus (quick def.):

Main Entry: prime
Part of Speech: noun 1
Definition: best

Since Lucas was referring to the entire PT era (and he was, it's stupidity on your part to argue it), your points are defeated.



Again (in case you missed it the first time): He's discussing the choreography for the entire movies, unless you're going to argue that he only wanted the lightsaber duels (and there was only one in TPM) to be "more energized version and a more faster version" in TPM alone, then I suggest you get a grip on reality. You can also use the dialogue he uses to describe the OT, and infer that he means the entire prequel trilogy because of his description of how the PT will differ from the OT.



Maybe because AOTC and ROTS weren't released yet (though that's not to say Lucas didn't know what he wanted for them)? Lucas makes clear that it's his vision for the entire PT (being the "Prime of the Jedi" that he wants all the lightsaber duels to differ from what we saw in the OT ("old men, crippled half droid/half men, young boys", not just in TPM alone where we only see one freaking duel.



So, sadly, because "The Prime of the Jedi" says everything about the Jedi of the era, and because you're illogical (and can't accept being wrong, I mean really - making up shit like "Lucas looked tired"? lol) your theories are disproved, and my facts stand.



Only unlucky that I have to deal with your bull, Nebaris.



And...

Originally posted by Advent
How exactly was he "vague"? Quit making shit up, GM.

'Lucas said that the PT is the prime of the Jedi where lightsaber skills are concerned'

Stop making stuff up. He stated that the PT is the prime of the jedi in an article that was behind the scenes for episode 1, and was discussing choreography with Nick Gillard and comparing the OT to the PT.

Originally posted by Sith'ari
'Lucas said that the PT is the prime of the Jedi where lightsaber skills are concerned'

Stop making stuff up. He stated that the PT is the prime of the jedi in an article that was behind the scenes for episode 1, and was discussing choreography with Nick Gillard and comparing the OT to the PT.

Motoko's proof above says it all, Nebaris.

Indeed it is, or you could just go to the Anakin and Obi-Wan vs. Revan and Malak thread for further Adventpwnage.

No it doesn't. Lucas said it in a very casual way. You can't just take such an ambiguous statement and rely on them in debates.

Originally posted by Sith'ari
No it doesn't. Lucas said it in a very casual way. You can't just take such an ambiguous statement and rely on them in debates.

How is it "ambiguous"? Quit making shit up, GM.

Sith'ari: It can be interpreted differently!!!
Motoko: Uh, no.
Lucas: "...to see Jedi fighting in the Prime of the Jedi".
Motoko: You were saying?

The statement is dissected like so, "to see Jedi" means the Jedi Order as a whole, and "Prime of the Jedi" means simply "best". So, you put it all together, and the conclusion is: The PT era is the best Order of Jedi we've seen. The highest quality, excellence. And I don't see how it's a stretch considering almost everyone is either a "prodigy", "strong in the Force", "one of the best swordsbeings", etc. And, there's a lot more than five or six.

The thing is, the entire article is discussing choreography and comparing the OT to the PT, so maybe Lucas considered that he didn't have to be clear and add on 'in comparison to the movies' at the end. Either way, you have failed to convince me.

'How exactly was he "vague"? Quit making shit up, GM.'

He didn't put any emphasis onto it whatsoever. I mean he even looked kind of sleepy at the time - it was very vague.

wow... lol

Originally posted by Sith'ari
The thing is, the entire article is discussing choreography and comparing the OT to the PT,so maybe Lucas considered that he didn't have to be clear and add on 'in comparison to the movies' at the end.

"...to see Jedi fighting in the Prime of the Jedi I wanted it to be a more energized version and a more faster version."- what Lucas is saying is that he wants the duels to be extravagant because of the era.



And? It's not like convincing an elitist Star Wars fan is something important. Especially when you consider your bias, horrible reasonings, and the fact you hardly accept it when you're wrong.



WTH? He said "...to see Jedi (Jedi Order as a whole) fighting in the Prime of the Jedi (best)" - it's perfectly clear, and after gave that as a reason as to why he wanted the duels to be more extravagant.



ROFL! This is what I'm talking about. Horrible reasonings, get real. I could just as easily say George Lucas' words are invalid because he has no chin.

Absurd logic.

'"...to see Jedi fighting in the Prime of the Jedi I wanted it to be a more energized version and a more faster version."- what Lucas is saying is that he wants the duels to be extravagant because of the era.'

Didn't realise you were aware of Lucas' hidden thoughts. Impressive...

'ROFL! This is what I'm talking about. Horrible reasonings, get real. I could just as easily say George Lucas' words are invalid because he has no chin.

Absurd logic.'

Invalid analogy. His fatigue adds to the ambiguity of the statement. His physical appearance doesn't.

Originally posted by Sith'ari
Invalid analogy. His fatigue adds to the ambiguity of the statement. His physical appearance doesn't.

The similarity is absurdity. He looked tired, therefore his words are invalid/weren't thought out clearly? What bullshit. As I said, get real. It doesn't matter if he hadn't slept for three days, or for ten - he was on camera, on documented film, and better yet; he published it on the website, ergo his words are valid, and because of such, your ridiculous reasonings are the only thing that is invalid.

'He looked tired, therefore his words are invalid/weren't thought out clearly?'

Well you see, that's not what I said, so quit putting words into my mouth Mokoto. I just stated that his fatigue added to how unclear and vague the statement was.

Originally posted by Sith'ari
Well you see, that's not what I said, so quit putting words into my mouth Mokoto. I just stated that his fatigue added to how unclear and vague the statement was.

Even worse than what I said for you. What in the world does him looking (keyword) tired have to do with his statement? First of all, it's clear - you just don't accept it, and secondly, it's not vague, GM, so quit making shit up.

"...to see Jedi fighting..." - Jedi Order as a whole.
"...in the Prime of the Jedi..." - PotJ meaning "best".
"...I wanted it to be a more energized version and a faster version" - Describing how he wants the PT because of the above.

Originally posted by Advent
Even worse than what I said for you. What in the world does him looking (keyword) tired have to do with his statement? First of all, it's clear - you just don't accept it, and secondly, it's not vague, GM, so quit making shit up.

"...to see Jedi fighting..." - Jedi Order as a whole.
"...in the Prime of the Jedi..." - PotJ meaning "best".
"...I wanted it to be a more energized version and a faster version" - Describing how he wants the PT because of the above.

It is vague Mokoto. He doesn't add any emphasis onto the statement, and he states it in a monotonous and very unclear way.

Originally posted by Sith'ari
It is vague Mokoto. He doesn't add any emphasis onto the statement, and he states it in a monotonous and very unclear way.

GM, that's only your opinion. And monotone? Seriously, since when does GL have to have a specific sound in his voice? He always sounds that way, and how is it unclear? I just broke the entire thing down for you. The Jedi Order in the PT is the highest quality, or "best" Order we've seen, that is clear:

Main Entry: prime
Part of Speech: noun 1
Definition: best

How is "Prime of the Jedi" vague? PotJ = Best of the Jedi. Buddha damn, you really don't have a clue.

As I said before: quit making shit up, GM, you're not gaining any support by doing it.

I'm not saying that the words are unclear or vague, only the way he said it.

Sadow would get his arse handed to him in a duel, and, quite frankly, I don't see why he's so great in the force. Correct me if I'm wrong, but, the most powerful force attack we've seen from him is him throwing a single brick, correct?

No! The most devastating Force power he's used (without equipment) is taking out two bricks, and throwing one on Ludo's head. He's a Force god, I tell you, maybe even the Force god:

http://img336.imageshack.us/img336/1630/nagaludoduel1in8.th.jpg

So far, from what he's demonstrated there - he's on par with OT Luke (without his ship, that is).

No way!






Luke managed to lift up C-3P0.

Oh yes! Because we don't know exactly how good he was with his sword, he automatically sucks! Wonderful logic from the KMC regulars here. Lets just assume the ancient sith suck at sword fighting because they were never at war with each other, it ISNT in their nature right? Oh wait.. And while we're at it lets diminish their force abilities too. "Omg he must really suck without his amulet". Please, more retardation. I expect more from you Sama.

Kyle's going to beat Sadow, lol. Ain't that a laugh. The downplaying of characters on this forum is hysterical.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Oh yes! Because we don't know exactly how good he was with his sword, he automatically sucks! Wonderful logic from the KMC regulars here. Lets just assume the ancient sith suck at sword fighting because they were never at war with each other, it ISNT in their nature right? Oh wait.. And while we're at it lets diminish their force abilities too. "Omg he must really suck without his amulet". Please, more retardation. I expect more from you Sama.

Kyle's going to beat Sadow, lol. Ain't that a laugh. The downplaying of characters on this forum is hysterical.

No, it's simply the truth. Logical deduction and on panel evidence indicate that Sadow required his toys to do anything special. Other than that, he's just an above average Ancient Sith Lord.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Oh yes! Because we don't know exactly how good he was with his sword, he automatically sucks! Wonderful logic from the KMC regulars here.

Are you referring to me? Because regulars is plural. Anyways, I don't recall anyone saying he sucks. I do, however, remember that jim said he would get his ass (or 'arse') kicked in a duel. There's nothing to support that Sadow would actually be able to beat Katarn in a duel (Mara he'd beat probably), and you can't deduct much from what we see of him fighting anyways.



Okay, we'll assume they suck - that is what you just said, right?

Seriously, no one even said they suck, they said he'd lose in a duel. And, it "isn't" in their nature to do what? War with each other? Your point? Does it mean all the Ancient Sith were involved...? I don't see what you're getting at.



"More retardation"? How did I dimish his Force abilities?

I said he was on par with OT Luke from what we have actually seen him do without his ship (and that's the only equipment he used in the actual source material). We cannot assume he'll pwn Kyle or Mara with Force lightning, Force grip, etc. because we:

a) Have never seen him use it.
b) Don't know jack about their actual Force powers.

Expect more? Like what? Why would I defend a character that we can only speculate on for most of his actual power?



You come in her with a nice, little response that proved absolutely jack for your case. Ain't that a guffaw.

Oh wow, I didn't know this thread was "omgz Sadow without his amulet!" And you're only speculating Sadow would lose, unless of course you have definitive proof or even logical deduction that somehow the likes of Sadow and Kressh, who were 2nd in the apex of Sith power, are below the likes of Kyle? Come on..

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Oh wow, I didn't know this thread was "omgz Sadow without his amulet!"

Oh wow, I didn't know I said that! Oh wait...I didn't z0mg!

I'm saying that while Sadow probably has the Force advantage, we haven't seen him use any Sith magic in a fight, and I'm not saying that he doesn't know it because he obviously does, but we don't know the Sith spells that he actually has. We have not seen him demonstrate any power of even with his amulets, and the only real display of power we saw him doing without his ship (which he doesn't have here obviously) was throwing a brick at Ludo's head.

I'm sure he can do what Aleema can do, but I doubt that's enough to actually defeat Kyle and Mara. Plus, Kyle could always use Mara as a sacrificial lamb for one of Sadow's force attacks, and then engage him in combat anyways.



Lmfao. A versus fight is basically entirely speculation. None of these fights' victors are cold, hard fact. Anyways, Kyle has done far more impressive things than Sadow. "Apex of Sith power"? Is that why they were wiped off of the face of the galaxy?

Please, you have no proof other than "l0l s4d0\_l_/ Dwn5 4ll! sauphcxuxncsd89 ANC1ent 51th ph4llu5!!///!ONEOIDH!".

Apparently this is DN Kyle Katarn, so what makes me think he would win? Har. I should be asking you how Sadow can stop him in direct combat. We know Kyle has at least nine years of battle experience compared to Sadow's...uh, defeat in the same year of going into war? He was in the GCW, and the YZ War. Experience does matter (case in point: Obi-Wan vs. Anakin), though it's not the end all, be all; it still accounts for something.

And really, Kyle is simply a lightsaber prodigy and master (like Ulic and Kun were). He defeated Desann, where Luke didn't (well, there was a reason for that though), and numerous other Dark Jedi. I mean, seriously, he defeated seven Dark Jedi in combat, including Jerec (who was a fully trained Jedi as well), without much training at all actually. And keep in mind that Jerec was trained by Sidious himself, and Vader. Kyle was the Battlemaster as well of the era. He was able to defeat Boba when working as a mercenary, and numerous other Imperial troopers. And also challenged Mara herself without any training still. I'd say he has far more combat experience than Sadow.

We've seen Sadow battle Ludo Kressh, that's about it. We know Kyle has defeated fully trained opponents while having little training, and now he's a lightsaber master, a Battlemaster at that with a lot of experience. I'd say he can defeat Sadow.

Not to mention, he's also got Mara Jade to help out. While I don't think she's much of a match for Sadow, she's a nice icing on the cake.

I'd give it to Kyle and Mara from what we know about them, and from what little we know about Sadow's actual power. Of course, now I'll just have to wait for your "etc, etc, etc" reply.

"If they were so great why were they wiped out"?
THanks for your incredible logic lightsnake. Well then, if Palpatine was so powerful, why did he get curbstomped by a machine? See how ridiculous that sounds? Their personal power has nothing to do with the outcome of certain events. Lets see how Sadow was wiped out.. Oh yes, arrogance.. Palpatine, arrogance. Kun, arrogance. But of course if Sadow was all powerful he would have lived forever, like the highlander.. That is ridiculous logic and a poor attempt to discredit Sadow and the ancient sith, as lightsnake always tries to do.
And another thing, where was it said that Kyle was a saber prodigy?

Pretty much anywhere where the name Katarn is mentioned... You obviously know very little about him.

Anyway. It's safe to assume that Sadow was good, right? Now why in Hell is he ahead of the likes of Kyle, though? It begs for more proof than just: "'Cuz he's teh Ancient Sith!!1!!11!"

Look, if Sadow had uber force attacks, he would have used them. Maybe his amulet has no effect on force sensitives, maybe it takes some time to use, I don't know. The case and point is, that, if he could have used it, he would have. Now, if it's anything like when Kun used it, then, it would be more useful than throwing a single brick, right? And, Ludo couldn't block the brick, as we saw, so, why not use the amulet? There has to be a catch. Proof? Well, logic, but, if you want a little more, then:

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=243&page=17 Okay. See how it says the battle will go until one of them is dead? That means they're trying to kill each other. Do you understand what I'm getting at? I mean, they want each other dead... there's even an exclamation point in there.

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=243&page=16 Okay. See how Sadow threw one stinking brick? Yeah, that's lame. He even uses a hand with the amulet on it. So? Couldn't he just point his hand and blow Ludo away instead of throwing one crappy brick? Apparently not. Now, until you provide proof of him doing something like that, I don't see why he can.

Gee did you ever think that Ludo had a defense for it? THat two powerful ancient sith lords COULDNT just blow each other away? Things would have been a lot more simpler if they could. And please don't say "If he could have he would", because we very well see his powers from Exar Kun, who could blow anyone away at will considering there was no defense for it from the Jedi. So to answer your question, no, he couldn't blow anyone away because the ancient sith had defenses for stuff like this, otherwise he could have just blown away Ragnos.

Okay, well, he couldn't block a single brick, so I doubt he would be able to get his defences up in time to block an amulet blast. There's a reason Sadow didn't use his amulet. You tell me what it is.

It could be argued that Ludo's amulet made him immune from any effect that Sadow's amulet could give.

It could also be argued that it has no effect on force sensitives. It could also be argued that it would take Sadow a long time to use it. It could also be argued that Sadow wasn't powerful enough to use it. It could also be argued that it would also kill Sadow to use it...

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Okay, well, he couldn't block a single brick, so I doubt he would be able to get his defences up in time to block an amulet blast. There's a reason Sadow didn't use his amulet. You tell me what it is.

Uh same reason Yoda didn't block Sidious' lightning at first? Same reason Sidious didn't block Yoda's force push? Simple force attacks can be blocked, especially by the ancient sith. And why didn't he use his amulet? Probably because Kressh had a defense for it?

Originally posted by jollyjim311
It could also be argued that it has no effect on force sensitives. It could also be argued that it would take Sadow a long time to use it. It could also be argued that Sadow wasn't powerful enough to use it. It could also be argued that it would also kill Sadow to use it...

No it can't be argued that it has no effect on force sensitives, since the only "force based" part of the attack is the channeling through the amulet, after that it the beam isn't a force based attack. Not to mention it not working on force sensitives is speculation at best. Now, why would it take Kun no time at all and Sadow a long time to use his own invention? Hmm. Now, Sadow wasn't powerful to use his OWN CREATED AMULET? Come on jollyjim, you have to do better than that post.

Look, if Ludo had a defence for it, it wouldn't really matter. He didn't have the time to get his defences up (seeing as how he was hit in the head with a brick). Now, seeing as how Naga has never used his amulet in a fight, and the best force attack he has demonstrated is throwing a single brick, why is he so uber?

About all those "It could also be argued..." things, yeah, they're all speculation, but, so is your theory of Ludo being able to block it. Mine are just as good, only... Ludo wouldn't have time to block it anyway, so... that one flops now doesn't it?

Naga Sadow was also able to produce extremely impressive illusions.

And skilled Jedi are able to dispel illusions easilym and disrupting Sadow's concentration ruins that. Moreover? Illusions aren't helping him at all

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And skilled Jedi are able to dispel illusions easilym and disrupting Sadow's concentration ruins that. Moreover? Illusions aren't helping him at all

Skilled Jedi could dispelle illusions such as Aleema. Sadow's illusions were on an entirely different level and it took a blast to his ship to stop them. And JollyJim I've already said this before, the ancient sith had defenses for the techniques they created, so it's logical to assume Kressh had a defense for Sadow, which is why they didn't blast each other.

Oh okay.








Where exactly does it say that?

It has to say that? It has to say that they created defenses for their own techniques? Why? They created the techniques JollyJim, and if they didn't create defenses for it, you'd have certain sith running around blasting everything and killng everything. When the freemasons build buildings, first thing they do is create a secondary entrance for air and all that jazz.

So, Sadow created this amulet, and then told everyone how to block its attacks? Gotcha.

Also, other Sith Magic doesn't affect force sensitives (such as Kun's freezing the senate), so, why should the Amulet blast? Especially seeing as how when people had the opportunity to use the amulets in fights, they didn't.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Also, other Sith Magic doesn't affect force sensitives (such as Kun's freezing the senate), so, why should the Amulet blast? Especially seeing as how when people had the opportunity to use the amulets in fights, they didn't.

I just told you, the only force based part of the amulet blast is the channeling of anger. The beam itself is not a force attack, so it's not going to sway away from a force user. And you're right, Kun's sith spell didn't..How about Ragnos' scepter? That's sith Magic and it certainly affects everybody.

Sadow created the amulet, not necessarily the amulet blast. As masters of sith alchemy they created tools into which to channel and augment their darkside power/anger exponentially, meaning Sadow most likely wasn't the only one with the blast capabilities.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
"If they were so great why were they wiped out"?
THanks for your incredible logic lightsnake.

You seem to think the Ancient Sith are the "l337 St4r W4r5 M4ast3rs 0f t3h Un1v3rse", and you really don't support them with anything concrete, and then you also skirt my actual post, and rant about one line. Great way to avoid the post, tdtd.



Curbstomped by a machine? Lmfao. As I can see, you're still making shit up. He was caught off guard by Vader while he was in the middle of pwning Luke. His apprentice for twenty some years turned on him, he didn't expect it. On top of that, he killed Vader anyways.



I see how ridiculous the comparison was. Palpatine was killed by a sneak attack, and had no clue what was going on. I mean, Dor-Gal-Ram was pwned by his own Massassi crew. Sylvar managed to own two of them with her bare hands. Real powerful, Ancient Sith.



Kun was wiped out by arrogance? No. As a living Kun released his own spirit, betrayed by his apprentice, and a spirit Kun was attacked by like twelve different apprentices, who already knew how to defend against him. And Palpatine - arrogance? Only arrogant to think his loyal apprentice for the past twenty years wouldn't turn on him. And in DE, he was killed by his own powers, because Luke and Leia used the power of the Lightside against him.



Apparently, you didn't read my post, as I figured. Read my post, it's clear from what he's done that he is a lightsaber prodigy, it's ridiculous to assume otherwise, given what we know.

Originally posted by Advent
Apparently this is DN Kyle Katarn, so what makes me think he would win? Har. I should be asking you how Sadow can stop him in direct combat. We know Kyle has at least nine years of battle experience compared to Sadow's...uh, defeat in the same year of going into war? He was in the GCW, and the YZ War. Experience does matter (case in point: Obi-Wan vs. Anakin), though it's not the end all, be all; it still accounts for something.

And really, Kyle is simply a lightsaber prodigy and master (like Ulic and Kun were). He defeated Desann, where Luke didn't (well, there was a reason for that though), and numerous other Dark Jedi. I mean, seriously, he defeated seven Dark Jedi in combat, including Jerec (who was a fully trained Jedi as well), without much training at all actually. And keep in mind that Jerec was trained by Sidious himself, and Vader. Kyle was the Battlemaster as well of the era. He was able to defeat Boba when working as a mercenary, and numerous other Imperial troopers. And also challenged Mara herself without any training still. I'd say he has far more combat experience than Sadow.

We've seen Sadow battle Ludo Kressh, that's about it. We know Kyle has defeated fully trained opponents while having little training, and now he's a lightsaber master, a Battlemaster at that with a lot of experience. I'd say he can defeat Sadow.

Not to mention, he's also got Mara Jade to help out. While I don't think she's much of a match for Sadow, she's a nice icing on the cake.

I'd give it to Kyle and Mara from what we know about them, and from what little we know about Sadow's actual power.

On top of that, I must be a psychic:

Originally posted by Advent
Of course, now I'll just have to wait for your "etc, etc, etc" reply.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I just told you, the only force based part of the amulet blast is the channeling of anger. The beam itself is not a force attack, so it's not going to sway away from a force user. And you're right, Kun's sith spell didn't..How about Ragnos' scepter? That's sith Magic and it certainly affects everybody.

Oh? Ragnos' scepter? The one that Jaden failed to kill Kyle with, and actually got pwned in the DS ending? Now, it's not necessarily the canon ending, but that doesn't mean he still can't do it if the situation arises.

Kyle is also stated in one book to be the best saber dueler in the entire NJO, and he is outrught stated to be a prodigy many times.

A blast to his ship? It was as simple as disrupting his battle meditation. And where was it stated the Ancients had these incredible defenses?

Originally posted by Advent
You seem to think the Ancient Sith are the "l337 St4r W4r5 M4ast3rs 0f t3h Un1v3rse", and you really don't support them with anything concrete, and then you also skirt my actual post, and rant about one line. Great way to avoid the post, tdtd.

Oh how cute, the kmc mentality is when one gets angry at me, refer to calling me tdtd. Way to go Sama, your anger is transparent. But I guess I'm "tdtd" when anybody is heated, that's nice.
I don't support anything I've ever said about the ancient sith? Interesting, so I guess next thing you'll say is I haven't made 1 argument my entire time being here. A humorous defense mechanism for anger. And yes, I skirt your actual post because it is 100% evident that by saying "Oh if theyre so cool how come they died", you're diminishing their abilities. Which is why I responded with an equally irrelevant and ridiculous post about Sidious(which coincidentally is very relevant in response to your ridiculous statement). No need to get angry Sama.



Curbstomped by a machine? Lmfao. As I can see, you're still making shit up. He was caught off guard by Vader while he was in the middle of pwning Luke. His apprentice for twenty some years turned on him, he didn't expect it. On top of that, he killed Vader anyways.

Yes I'm full of shit. Because I didn't state that the sith's only real weakness is arrogance. But apparently you can diminish the ancient sith's abilities and powers but when I do the EXACT same thing in the EXACT same context, I'm making shit up? Nice one Sama, you're on the ball today. So let me explain this again so you understand. Sadow and his crew were wiped out because of his arrogance, does that make him any less powerful? Sidious was wiped out because of his arrogance(twice), but do we diminish his abilities? Heavens no!


I see how ridiculous the comparison was. Palpatine was killed by a sneak attack, and had no clue what was going on. I mean, Dor-Gal-Ram was pwned by his own Massassi crew. Sylvar managed to own two of them with her bare hands. Real powerful, Ancient Sith.

oh but Sama, if Sidious was so powerful, he would have seen it coming!
In case you don't notice it, I'm doing exactly what you did to my statements, back to you. Yes, making excuses for certain characters and diminishing others. Except I'm doing it to prove a point while you're diminishing the ancient sith and making excuses for Sidious. A work of art.




Apparently, you didn't read my post, as I figured. Read my post, it's clear from what he's done that he is a lightsaber prodigy, it's ridiculous to assume otherwise, given what we know.

oh, so he was a lightsaber prodigy, that's nice.. Now you're going to quantify that how? Kun and Ulic were lightsaber prodigies too, so is Kyle=Kun or Ulic? And because we know very little about the ancient sith dueling abilities, they're automatically weaker? I suppose Tulak Hord was also a nobody just because he was mentioned as the "best", yet we know very little about him.




Oh? Ragnos' scepter? The one that Jaden failed to kill Kyle with, and actually got pwned in the DS ending? Now, it's not necessarily the canon ending, but that doesn't mean he still can't do it if the situation arises.

Gee Sama, I didn't know that what Tavion was using it for and what Jaden did to Kyle were the exact attacks! And I highly doubt non canon endings can be used in a debate. Now Kyle must be superior to all the planets Tavion drained if you believe Tavion and Jacen used the same exactly blasts. Then again, as you said it, DS endings mean nothing.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
A blast to his ship? It was as simple as disrupting his battle meditation. And where was it stated the Ancients had these incredible defenses?

It doesn't have to be stated lightsnake, I gave you an example of what the Freemasons do. If the ancient sith created techniques without defenses, they would be blowing each other up randomly.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Oh how cute, the kmc mentality is when one gets angry at me, refer to calling me tdtd.

No, the "KMC mentality", as you call it, is when someone acts like a sock of a banned member, refer to them as said banned member.



Thanks for the evaluation, Doc.



With concrete evidence? No. More or less, you only make assumptions on their power. The only thing concrete is:

1.) Ragnos is the most powerful.
2.) Sadow and Kressh are the two most powerful under Ragnos.
3.) They were Sith magicians (however, we don't even know what they have).
4.) Some misc. things.

For this match, you haven't laid much down that can be applied. I, however, have; which you still are avoiding.



Defense mechanism? What am I getting angry about? It's just Star Wars, amigo. You're not making any good rebuttals, so I fail to see why I'd be mad.



Wow, td. If you noticed my entire post didn't even say that, other than one sentence. The rest was what you asked me to do, which was:

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
And you're only speculating Sadow would lose, unless of course you have definitive proof or even logical deduction that somehow the likes of Sadow and Kressh, who were 2nd in the apex of Sith power, are below the likes of Kyle? Come on..



Equally irrelevant? Do you need to check your glasses?

Originally posted by Advent
Oh wow, I didn't know I said that! Oh wait...I didn't z0mg!

I'm saying that while Sadow probably has the Force advantage, we haven't seen him use any Sith magic in a fight, and I'm not saying that he doesn't know it because he obviously does, but we don't know the Sith spells that he actually has. We have not seen him demonstrate any power of even with his amulets, and the only real display of power we saw him doing without his ship (which he doesn't have here obviously) was throwing a brick at Ludo's head.

I'm sure he can do what Aleema can do, but I doubt that's enough to actually defeat Kyle and Mara. Plus, Kyle could always use Mara as a sacrificial lamb for one of Sadow's force attacks, and then engage him in combat anyways.



Lmfao. A versus fight is basically entirely speculation. None of these fights' victors are cold, hard fact. Anyways, Kyle has done far more impressive things than Sadow. "Apex of Sith power"? Is that why they were wiped off of the face of the galaxy?

Please, you have no proof other than "l0l s4d0\_l_/ Dwn5 4ll! sauphcxuxncsd89 ANC1ent 51th ph4llu5!!///!ONEOIDH!".

Apparently this is DN Kyle Katarn, so what makes me think he would win? Har. I should be asking you how Sadow can stop him in direct combat. We know Kyle has at least nine years of battle experience compared to Sadow's...uh, defeat in the same year of going into war? He was in the GCW, and the YZ War. Experience does matter (case in point: Obi-Wan vs. Anakin), though it's not the end all, be all; it still accounts for something.

And really, Kyle is simply a lightsaber prodigy and master (like Ulic and Kun were). He defeated Desann, where Luke didn't (well, there was a reason for that though), and numerous other Dark Jedi. I mean, seriously, he defeated seven Dark Jedi in combat, including Jerec (who was a fully trained Jedi as well), without much training at all actually. And keep in mind that Jerec was trained by Sidious himself, and Vader. Kyle was the Battlemaster as well of the era. He was able to defeat Boba when working as a mercenary, and numerous other Imperial troopers. And also challenged Mara herself without any training still. I'd say he has far more combat experience than Sadow.

We've seen Sadow battle Ludo Kressh, that's about it. We know Kyle has defeated fully trained opponents while having little training, and now he's a lightsaber master, a Battlemaster at that with a lot of experience. I'd say he can defeat Sadow.

Not to mention, he's also got Mara Jade to help out. While I don't think she's much of a match for Sadow, she's a nice icing on the cake.

I'd give it to Kyle and Mara from what we know about them, and from what little we know about Sadow's actual power. Of course, now I'll just have to wait for your "etc, etc, etc" reply.

Your post was pretty much aimless bullshit, mine actually laid down things about Kyle. You were just too stuck on one line to see that, which is what I predicted your post to be "etc, etc, etc".



I know.



How can I diminish their abilities? What abilities are you even talking about? We have only seen Sadow drop a brick on Ludo's head, and stalemate him. And please, the Ancient Sith were wiped out in combat as well. Dor-Gal-Ram by simple Massassi. At Kirrek, etc.



Go ahead.



Except you've yet to actually tell me how he was "wiped out by his arrogance"? If thinking your loyal apprentice for the past twenty years is arrogant, that's pretty absurd. There wasn't any real reason to suspect Vader would do that.



When did I say that? When did I even say Sidious was powerful?

I actually haven't noticed you were doing the same thing, because when I type it - it actually means something. You are saying the Ancient Sith are Masters of the Universe, I'm saying that's bullshit, and Kyle will hand Sadow his ass.



How is it an excuse...? That's exactly what happened, you dolt.



Actually, given what we know about Kyle's history with a lightsaber, he probably is on par with Ulic. WTH do you mean "quantify"? Can you quantify Ulic being a prodigy? Nomi? No, you can't. Why don't you actually read my post about what Kyle has done, and maybe then you will understand. Until then, learn to read.



Hm, let me see here: because we don't know a lot about their dueling abilities, how in Buddha's name can we put them above Kyle? He's demonstrated far more skills even without any training, he's demonstrated skills with training, it's logical to assume he has more direct combat experience. So, how can we put Sadow above Kyle in terms of dueling when we know jack about his skills? Logic, the bane of the fanboy.



He probably was somebody, but he's a virtual unknown so we can't say that he'd beat anybody, or put him above anybody save for a Jedi youngling. There's nothing to dictate that he could beat someone, a little different with Sadow, who we actually have seen in work, and saw other Ancient Sith at work, too. We cannot use Tulak in a match, we can and do use Sadow, so we can decide the victor. Here, the victor is Kyle and Mara.



I guess The Exile is incapable of killing the Jedi Masters in KOTOR 2 simply because the Lightside ending is canon?

And still, I noticed your skirting the actual point. Will you actually make an argument for Sadow, instead of arguing against one line over and over?

Originally posted by Advent
No, the "KMC mentality", as you call it, is when someone acts like a sock of a banned member, refer to them as said banned member.

Just because you get angry at ANY and ALL rebuttals does not mean I'm acting like a "sock". Thanks for your opinion though I'll take it into consideration.




With concrete evidence? No. More or less, you only make assumptions on their power. The only thing concrete is:

1.) Ragnos is the most powerful.
2.) Sadow and Kressh are the two most powerful under Ragnos.
3.) They were Sith magicians (however, we don't even know what they have).
4.) Some misc. things.

For this match, you haven't laid much down that can be applied. I, however, have; which you still are avoiding.

Notice how this doesn't say "DN Kyle vs. Naga Sadow in a saber duel". It obviously means an all out duel, in which case there's not much I need to say except Sadow has his amulet and heavy sword. "But you have no proof that he can use this on a force user lol". Please... Unless Kyle is Yoda or Luke, he doesn't have much chance against a superior force user. "But we haven't seen him do anything LOL". Yes, he was 2nd only to Ragnos because he was good looking.



Defense mechanism? What am I getting angry about? It's just Star Wars, amigo. You're not making any good rebuttals, so I fail to see why I'd be mad.

The pattern on this forum is, if anyone gets angry with me, "i'm tdtd". So far the only person that hasn't taken the ridiculously immature and unsubstantiated route is Escape.




Your post was pretty much aimless bullshit, mine actually laid down things about Kyle. You were just too stuck on one line to see that, which is what I predicted your post to be "etc, etc, etc".
"But omg tdtd, I mean DS, Kyle beat 7 dark Jedi at once LOL". Yes Sama, because you can quantify the power of those 7 dark jedi in comparison to Naga Sadow, and because that's going to help Kyle "I was defeated by my student in an arbitrary DS ending" Katarn win an ALL OUT battle against the 2nd most powerful Ancient Sith.. Right..


How can I diminish their abilities? What abilities are you even talking about? We have only seen Sadow drop a brick on Ludo's head, and stalemate him. And please, the Ancient Sith were wiped out in combat as well. Dor-Gal-Ram by simple Massassi. At Kirrek, etc.

You seem to have a retarded assumptions that I think:
1. The Ancient Sith pwn all.
2. ALL the ancient sith pwn all.

When in fact I never "thought" that and I never "said that". In fact I stated that the likes of DN Luke would win over all of the ancient sith, and Yoda perhaps would also, so that would contradict your theory of my theory on #1.
In response to #2, I have always said that the most powerful sith were Simus, Ragnos, Sadow, Kressh, Hord, and Pall, in terms of "sith" or "ancient sith", because we know nothing about anybody else. They could have been better than the average jedi or they could have been purely incompetent. But thanks for putting words into my mouth, since you clearly are Cleo the psychic.


Except you've yet to actually tell me how he was "wiped out by his arrogance"? If thinking your loyal apprentice for the past twenty years is arrogant, that's pretty absurd. There wasn't any real reason to suspect Vader would do that.

How was Sadow defeated by his arrogance? Hmm.. Well I would say taking an outmanned, unready sith army, ALL of them rather, against a bigger, more dominant Republic. If that's not arrogance, then it's suicide, which stems from arrogance and incompetence.



I actually haven't noticed you were doing the same thing, because when I type it - it actually means something. You are saying the Ancient Sith are Masters of the Universe, I'm saying that's bullshit, and Kyle will hand Sadow his ass.

Never said the Ancient Sith are the masters of the universe, you're saying that I did, which means absolutely nothing because you can't show me where I've "said" it. And I'm saying Sadow is superior to Kyle in an all out battle, unless of course Kyle is uber leet and can throw an avalanche at Sadow and/or block his amulet.

How is it an excuse...? That's exactly what happened, you dolt.
Temper temper, psycho.



Actually, given what we know about Kyle's history with a lightsaber, he probably is on par with Ulic. WTH do you mean "quantify"? Can you quantify Ulic being a prodigy? Nomi? No, you can't. Why don't you actually read my post about what Kyle has done, and maybe then you will understand. Until then, learn to read.
"omgz I'm angry and i'm going to insult him to the best of my abilities to get my point across". Please Sama, your insults are humorous. Oh yes, Kyle is on par with Ulic.. Let me guess, Kyle is on par with Kun too? Or maybe Yoda? And I don't have to quantify Ulic being a prodigy in comparison to some others, because we have the one simple fact that he stalemated Kun, and did the same with Sylvar without the force.



Hm, let me see here: because we don't know a lot about their dueling abilities, how in Buddha's name can we put them above Kyle? He's demonstrated far more skills even without any training, he's demonstrated skills with training, it's logical to assume he has more direct combat experience. So, how can we put Sadow above Kyle in terms of dueling when we know jack about his skills? Logic, the bane of the fanboy.

Ah yes the fanboy personal attack. "OMg you don't agree with me youre a fanboy!". That's adorable Sama. I never said Sadow was about Kyle, but how is Kyle automatically about Sadow just because we know very little about his dueling abilities? Oh yes I forgot, if it's not directly stated, he must suck! Beautiful logic of the angry female. And notice how this thread again, isn't "Sabers only".



He probably was somebody, but he's a virtual unknown so we can't say that he'd beat anybody, or put him above anybody save for a Jedi youngling. There's nothing to dictate that he could beat someone, a little different with Sadow, who we actually have seen in work, and saw other Ancient Sith at work, too. We cannot use Tulak in a match, we can and do use Sadow, so we can decide the victor. Here, the victor is Kyle and Mara.

Kyle and Mara, in an ALL out fight? As in everything? Please..



I guess The Exile is incapable of killing the Jedi Masters in KOTOR 2 simply because the Lightside ending is canon?
Actually no, because what he did in the DS endings to all the Jedi, he did in the LS ending to Nihilus, which means he obviously has that ability, which means your point is moot.

One thing DS, Kyle didn't loose against Jaden, he was clearly superior even though he was not trying. You can see Jaden stand there, his saber is not activated anymore, and he is breathing heavily, yet Kyle doesn't do shit against him. Then he picks up the scepter and flees....

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Just because you get angry at ANY and ALL rebuttals does not mean I'm acting like a "sock". Thanks for your opinion though I'll take it into consideration.

Show me where I've exerted anger. And, I suggest you should take it into consideration; although there's nothing to consider.



I did notice that, and I've also noticed you've yet to actually prove how Sadow will defeat either one of these two, even with the Force.



That's your argument? Okay then, here's mine:

Originally posted by Advent
Oh wow, I didn't know I said that! Oh wait...I didn't z0mg!

I'm saying that while Sadow probably has the Force advantage, we haven't seen him use any Sith magic in a fight, and I'm not saying that he doesn't know it because he obviously does, but we don't know the Sith spells that he actually has. We have not seen him demonstrate any power of even with his amulets, and the only real display of power we saw him doing without his ship (which he doesn't have here obviously) was throwing a brick at Ludo's head.

I'm sure he can do what Aleema can do, but I doubt that's enough to actually defeat Kyle and Mara. Plus, Kyle could always use Mara as a sacrificial lamb for one of Sadow's force attacks, and then engage him in combat anyways.



Lmfao. A versus fight is basically entirely speculation. None of these fights' victors are cold, hard fact. Anyways, Kyle has done far more impressive things than Sadow. "Apex of Sith power"? Is that why they were wiped off of the face of the galaxy?

Please, you have no proof other than "l0l s4d0\_l_/ Dwn5 4ll! sauphcxuxncsd89 ANC1ent 51th ph4llu5!!///!ONEOIDH!".

Apparently this is DN Kyle Katarn, so what makes me think he would win? Har. I should be asking you how Sadow can stop him in direct combat. We know Kyle has at least nine years of battle experience compared to Sadow's...uh, defeat in the same year of going into war? He was in the GCW, and the YZ War. Experience does matter (case in point: Obi-Wan vs. Anakin), though it's not the end all, be all; it still accounts for something.

And really, Kyle is simply a lightsaber prodigy and master (like Ulic and Kun were). He defeated Desann, where Luke didn't (well, there was a reason for that though), and numerous other Dark Jedi. I mean, seriously, he defeated seven Dark Jedi in combat, including Jerec (who was a fully trained Jedi as well), without much training at all actually. And keep in mind that Jerec was trained by Sidious himself, and Vader. Kyle was the Battlemaster as well of the era. He was able to defeat Boba when working as a mercenary, and numerous other Imperial troopers. And also challenged Mara herself without any training still. I'd say he has far more combat experience than Sadow.

We've seen Sadow battle Ludo Kressh, that's about it. We know Kyle has defeated fully trained opponents while having little training, and now he's a lightsaber master, a Battlemaster at that with a lot of experience. I'd say he can defeat Sadow.

Not to mention, he's also got Mara Jade to help out. While I don't think she's much of a match for Sadow, she's a nice icing on the cake.

I'd give it to Kyle and Mara from what we know about them, and from what little we know about Sadow's actual power. Of course, now I'll just have to wait for your "etc, etc, etc" reply.

Seriously, Sexy, get real, is this how you earned your Ph.D in Fanboyology?



When did I say that he couldn't use it on a Force user? Glad to know you're already jumping the gun, and making shit up. So you're telling me that you have to be either Luke or Yoda to defend against his amulet? That's funny, where was that stated to be a prerequisite exactly? What magnitude can Sadow even produce the blasts?



Probably. As well, we haven't seen him use any Sith magic, so we can't assume he uses unknown Sith spell x and y at Mara and Kyle, because we don't even know what x and y are.



Show me where I've exerted anger.



Loving the Straw man arguments.



One of those Dark Jedi was Jerec, who was trained by Sidious and Vader, they all were fully trained and Kyle and no training. He also took down Desann as well, where Luke hadn't. WTH do you mean "quantify"? The man plowed through seven elite Dark Jedi with little training. Can you quantify Sadow's power at all? Since you seem to absolutely love throwing the term out.



Given that you think Sadow > Kun, and given you seem to think Sadow will curbstomp everyone in their path - yes. Didn't you just say "amulet and heavy sword, all that's needed to be said".



Contradictory? Hm, I forgot you had a huge argument with Lightsnake that Exar Kun would beat Yoda, and think Sadow > Kun. And really, you're argument consists of this:

"amulet and heavy sword all that's needed to be said"
"He was second under Ragnos in THE apex of Sith power"
"Amulet"
"Amulet"
"etc, etc, etc"

That's really all the argument you've made so far, and I'm being serious. That implies you think he'd pwn Kyle and Mara with ease (as you say "Kyle beat Sadow in all out fight? Right". Kyle is a formidable opponent, and please you know I was exaggerating.



Thanks for making shit up again, when did I say that you think all the Ancient Sith own everyone? When I say "Ancient Sith", I'm only referring to the ones you listed, and Dor-Gal-Ram. So, I suppose when you say "the ancient sith created most, if not all, techniques used" - you're only referring to the ones listed? But when I say "Ancient Sith", it instantely means all of them? Get real, it's commonly accepted to say "Ancient Sith" and mean the aforementioned.



Okay, Sadow's incompetent then.



You imply that from your words. Do you understand that? "Amulet and heavy sword, that's all I need to say". That implies you think they are the king shit of the galaxy.



And I'm saying you:

You. Haven't. Proved. A. Damn. Thing.

So, cough up your argument.



Temper? Because I called you a dolt, I'm mad? Wow, you are a dolt. And psycho? Yes, because I'm a crazed lunatic. And still, didn't respond to my answer. That was what happpened.



When did I say that? Oh? More bullshit? I insult you with like ten words at most, and you say I'm insulting you to get my point across. I should be the one saying "please". I insult after I lay down my points. Something wrong with that?

Wow, that makes a helluva' lotta' sense. Congratulations, tdtd, you've proven jack shit as usual! I could say that I don't have to quantify Kyle being a prodigy in comparison to others, because we have the simple fact he defeated seven fully trained Dark Jedi, one trained by Sidious and Vader, being able to cut people off from the Force, and Jerec got a boost from the Valley of the Jedi while Kyle still defeated him with no real Jedi training at all. Or the fact he took down Desann. Glad, you still skirt the point, and have no clue what you're talking about.



Why thank you. I said "logic, the bane of the fanboy". Logic is your bane. I never said because you don't agree with me, you're a fanboy. I'm saying that since you say things like "amulet and heavy sword, all that's needed to be said" that you show common properties to a fanboy.




We've seen Kyle do more impressive things, and demonstrate his abilities without training, now he's fully trained, and still is a prodigy and now master. He's above Sadow for what he has done, you cannot say Sadow is above him, because he hasn't demonstrated jack, and you cannot "deduct" that Sadow is better, and because of that: Kyle is above Sadow. Since there is nothing you can do (logical deduction, quote, etc.) to prove that Sadow > Kyle, it stands.



When did I ever say it was "sabers only"? When did I say "he must suck"? I didn't? I would say quit making shit up, but it's the expected par when I debate with you. I could, of course, just say the same thing to you "notice how this thread isn't 'Force only'".



Sweet argument. Like, that's so solid. "Everything"? Yes, as in everything. Hell, you don't even know what magnitude Sadow can produce the blasts.

For Buddha's sake, just make a viable argument already.



That made no sense. In the DS ending, he kills them - I'm talking about him killing the Jedi Masters, not him draining their stuff.

Kyle: Defeated seven dark Jedi at one time with very little training. The NJO's Lightsaber instructor and Battlemaster. Fought in both the Galactic Civil War and Yuzzahn Vong War. Defeated Jerec.

Naga: Best force attack was throwing a brick.

Simply put, but effective lol.

Originally posted by Advent
Show me where I've exerted anger. And, I suggest you should take it into consideration; although there's nothing to consider.
The ridiculous insults, claims, etc.


Seriously, Sexy, get real, is this how you earned your Ph.D in Fanboyology?

uh ok, how old are you again?



When did I say that he couldn't use it on a Force user? Glad to know you're already jumping the gun, and making shit up. So you're telling me that you have to be either Luke or Yoda to defend against his amulet? That's funny, where was that stated to be a prerequisite exactly? What magnitude can Sadow even produce the blasts?

Its amazing how all of a sudden I'm a "fanboy who's making shit up". Let me ask this simple. Is there ANY proof whatsoever that Kyle can block his amulet blasts? I didn't think so. You're right, I can't determine what magnitude he can produce his blasts. However you can't argue that his blasts would be weak enough to do nothing to Kyle, nor could Kyle block them. Unless you're going to say that the creator of the amulet has no idea how to use the amulet, channel his rage into his own amulet, especially since he didn't exactly have to call upon the dark side for the amulet to work(natural selection part of Nai's explanation of the ancient sith).



because we don't even know what x and y are.

I never said Sadow is going to use a random sith spell. But also take into account that in DLOTS it was stated that "Sadow knew techniques beyond the Jedi". Take that for what it's worth.

Loving the Straw man arguments.
I'm glad you're loving the strawman arguments.. Really, I am.



One of those Dark Jedi was Jerec, who was trained by Sidious and Vader, they all were fully trained and Kyle and no training. He also took down Desann as well, where Luke hadn't. WTH do you mean "quantify"? The man plowed through seven elite Dark Jedi with little training. Can you quantify Sadow's power at all? Since you seem to absolutely love throwing the term out.

Ah I see, so these elite dark Jedi were powerful in comparsion to whom? So Kyle>Luke? I can use that term when you are fully incapatable of doing what I ask, and that is quantify the power of somebody in comparison to somebody else. Can I quantify Sadow's power? No, but you don't see me listing feat wars like "omgz Sadow blew up a sun", which is completely irrelevant. Sadow also created illusions that kill people, what is your point? Kyle defeated Jerec, Desann, and 7 dark Jedi who's powers are unknown when compared to somebody else, and he's all of a sudden >all the ancient sith except Ragnos? Lets also forget the scans in which Sadow and Kressh were fighting, where it was shown they were using incredible speed. Lets also forget Kressh breaking his sword in little pieces, so obviously the sith have no combat abilities and no strength right?



just say "amulet and heavy sword, all that's needed to be said".

Yet another lovely assumption. Let me the phrase you love to use so much. "Quit making shit up". And yes I think Sadow would be able to use his amulet against somebody with no defense, and again you can't show me a shred of proof of Kyle having any defense for it.



Contradictory? Hm, I forgot you had a huge argument with Lightsnake that Exar Kun would beat Yoda, and think Sadow > Kun. And really, you're argument consists of this:

"amulet and heavy sword all that's needed to be said"
"He was second under Ragnos in THE apex of Sith power"
"Amulet"
"Amulet"
"etc, etc, etc"

You're right Sama, being #2 in the greatest era of sith knowledge means nothing.. No really. Nor does having the ability and skill to channel and augment your force abilities to insane proportions.. Right? Lol. I would say it's a little better than "Omgz Kyle defeated 7 Dark Jedi, and Desann, he would totally pwn Sadow in saber and force abilities omgz".

That's really all the argument you've made so far, and I'm being serious. That implies you think he'd pwn Kyle and Mara with ease (as you say "Kyle beat Sadow in all out fight? Right". Kyle is a formidable opponent, and please you know I was exaggerating.

No, I simply stated that your logic of "well we haven't seen Sadow fight and Kyle did all of these cool things so he'll own Sadow", isn't necessarily accurate. I never said anything about ease, so stop making shit up. What I said however that Sadow would beat Kyle in an all out battle, involving saber combat, the force, etc.



Thanks for making shit up again, when did I say that you think all the Ancient Sith own everyone? When I say "Ancient Sith", I'm only referring to the ones you listed, and Dor-Gal-Ram. So, I suppose when you say "the ancient sith created most, if not all, techniques used" - you're only referring to the ones listed? But when I say "Ancient Sith", it instantely means all of them? Get real, it's commonly accepted to say "Ancient Sith" and mean the aforementioned.

I believe it was the "You think the Ancient Sith are the masters of the Universe" post. And if the ancient sith means only the 4 powerful ones, why are you listing useless characters such as Dor Gal Ram, hell why not include Shar Dakhan while you're at it.

Okay, Sadow's incompetent then.

Obviously.



You imply that from your words. Do you understand that? "Amulet and heavy sword, that's all I need to say". That implies you think they are the king shit of the galaxy.
But I thought I didn't say the Ancient sith pwn all? Isn't that what "king shit of the galaxy" means? Which is it Sama.




Temper? Because I called you a dolt, I'm mad? Wow, you are a dolt. And psycho? Yes, because I'm a crazed lunatic. And still, didn't respond to my answer. That was what happpened.
So far Sama, you have shown Kyle's lightsaber feats.. Congratulations. And this is going to help him win an ALL out battle huh? What exactly do you want me to prove? Sadow uses incredible power and speed with his saber, or he created an artifact that would possibly blow a hole through Kyle if he used it?



after I lay down my points. Something wrong with that?

No, nothing wrong with that. I do that all the time on this forum too, to get my point across. Pointing out the shortcomings of others is thrilling isn't it? Yet at the very end you have still yet to prove how Kyle would win in an ALL OUT battle.

Originally posted by Advent
Wow, that makes a helluva' lotta' sense. Congratulations, tdtd, you've proven jack shit as usual! I could say that I don't have to quantify Kyle being a prodigy in comparison to others, because we have the simple fact he defeated seven fully trained Dark Jedi, one trained by Sidious and Vader, being able to cut people off from the Force, and Jerec got a boost from the Valley of the Jedi while Kyle still defeated him with no real Jedi training at all. Or the fact he took down Desann. Glad, you still skirt the point, and have no clue what you're talking about.

Uh ok "lightsnake"? Yet in fact you do have to quantify the 7 fully trained dark Jedi. Could they all take out Sidious, Vader, Kun, Yoda? Oh that's right, him defeating 7 dark Jedi says he is most likely quite good with a saber. Jacen Korr defeated a shitload of Dark Jedi or was it reborn, Tavion, Rosh, etc, so he>kyle or he>Sadow now? Interesting.. Oh wait, I think I got that point across. Unless of course 7 dark Jedi>a shitload of reborns, Tavion, etc?
Ah yes, the typical "Youre wrong Im right you have no idea what you're talking about" defense mechanism. So wait, Kyle>Luke now since he defeated Desann? Glad you know what you're talking about Sama.



Why thank you. I said "logic, the bane of the fanboy". Logic is your bane. I never said because you don't agree with me, you're a fanboy. I'm saying that since you say things like "amulet and heavy sword, all that's needed to be said" that you show common properties to a fanboy.

When in fact me saying he can blast Kyle away with the amulet, and that Kyle is unlikely to have a defense against it, is quite logical, not fanboyish, so just because you think it is, doesn't say anything.




We've seen Kyle do more impressive things, and demonstrate his abilities without training, now he's fully trained, and still is a prodigy and now master. He's above Sadow for what he has done, you cannot say Sadow is above him, because he hasn't demonstrated jack, and you cannot "deduct" that Sadow is better, and because of that: Kyle is above Sadow. Since there is nothing you can do (logical deduction, quote, etc.) to prove that Sadow > Kyle, it stands.

Well golly gosh Sama, let me guess. Because Kyle did X, Y, Z without training, he's going to be automatically doiny X x 100, Y x 100, Z x 100, with training? His feats are indeed above Sadow, but the only thing this will help him in is possible saber combat. Unless of course you're going to sit there and tell me I don't know what i'm talking about while spouting out crap such as "Kyle is superior to Sadow in the force". Notice how I didn't say you said that, but I'm going to assume you're going to say that, so I'm saving you the trouble of your "making shit up" ramble.



When did I ever say it was "sabers only"? When did I say "he must suck"? I didn't? I would say quit making shit up, but it's the expected par when I debate with you. I could, of course, just say the same thing to you "notice how this thread isn't 'Force only'".

Oh yes Sama, I make shit up when I argue. But of course you don't right? Why not quit living in your little fantasy world and accept the fact that we both assume things that are different than reality. It doesn't get funnier than reading hypocritical statements. And guess what Sama, there's only SO much you can do with a saber, the force is limitless. Unless of course, Kyle>Sadow in force abilities.


Sweet argument. Like, that's so solid. "Everything"? Yes, as in everything. Hell, you don't even know what magnitude Sadow can produce the blasts.

For Buddha's sake, just make a viable argument already.

I could say the same thing to you. "Omg Kyle defeated 7 dark jedi of unknown power and Desann, he would so own a powerful ancient sith in saber AND force combat".



That made no sense. In the DS ending, he kills them - I'm talking about him killing the Jedi Masters, not him draining their stuff.

Then why are you bringing up the dark side ending? He obviously doesn't kill the jedi masters so you're pretty much wasting text to prove nothing?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
The ridiculous insults, claims, etc.

Again, I ask for specifics where I am angry. When I'm angry it goes like this: "Shut the f*ck up", usually vulgar language. So far, only I've said' quit making shit up", which may be vulgar, but doesn't display my anger.



Twenty. How exactly was that a childish insult? I doubt an eleven year old even knows what a Ph.D is, or even stands for.



Is there any proof Sadow can even make a blast on par with Kun's?



I didn't think so.



And here you are arguing about the blasts. It's possible the blasts are as strong as what Kun used on Aleema, which only knocked her down.



What? We don't even know what magnitude the blast is, it could be the same Kun used on Aleema as I've said.



Worth nothing, since we don't even know what they are. Sure, he's powerful, no denying that, but as you seem so fond to say to me "this isn't a 'Force only' match", and Kyle also tossed Jaden through an entire room with the Force, if I recall correctly.



So you're glad your committing a fallacy?



Incapable? You're asking me to do something virtually impossible. How the f*ck can I quantify their power?



Uh, feat wars? It's called combat experience, and reason to believe Kyle > Sadow. Sadow causing solar manipulations on the Dena rii Nova is irrelevant, because he used his ship. And, on top of all that, Kyle did this with little to no real Jedi training.



WTF is your point?



Well, let's see: considering Jerec was trained by Sidious himself and Vader, was a fully trained Jedi, considered to be one of the galaxy's biggest threats, and had a boost from the Valley of the Jedi and Kyle managed to defeat him with no real Jedi training, I'd say yes. He's not "all of the sudden greater", I don't see where anyone has said Sadow > Kyle in any past debates. And you've yet to actually prove how Sadow would beat Kyle in a swordfight, given what we know - Kyle would win.



Lol. Because there was motion blurs, they have greater speed than Kyle? Yes, Jedi also use a thing called "Force speed".

But wait, how could I forget? General Grievous killed Obi-Wa...oh no, he didn't despite Grievous slinging his lightsabers around like buzzsaws. WTF does them swinging a damn sword have to do with anything? Given that Jedi can use the Force to speed up their movements.



I forget. What does breaking his sword have to do with fighting? Oh, here it is - just came back to me - nothing. Who said they didn't have strength or combat abilities? Making shit up still?

They haven't shown us anything to compete with the likes of Katarn, and you can't deduct shit from their fights.



You see, the phrase only works when it's true. How am I making shit up? You did say "amulet and sword, all that's needed to be said". That is fanboyism, so quit making shit up about me making shit up.

Lying will not save you.



Against what? If you tell me the magnitude, I'll give you an answer. First of all, it's possible it could be the same size blast Kun used on Aleema, which only knocked her down. And second of all, I'll be you: "Lightsaber is all that needs to be said", how is Sadow going to beat Kyle? Jesus christ, you haven't given me a shred of proof for anything other than "bl4sts = d3ad ka4tarn". You forget Mara Jade is also here.



And? What the hell does that have to do with anything? Can you show me anything for Sadow defeating Kyle and Mara?



Given what else we know, and this:

Originally posted by Advent
Apparently this is DN Kyle Katarn, so what makes me think he would win? Har. I should be asking you how Sadow can stop him in direct combat. We know Kyle has at least nine years of battle experience compared to Sadow's...uh, defeat in the same year of going into war? He was in the GCW, and the YZ War. Experience does matter (case in point: Obi-Wan vs. Anakin), though it's not the end all, be all; it still accounts for something.

And really, Kyle is simply a lightsaber prodigy and master (like Ulic and Kun were). He defeated Desann, where Luke didn't (well, there was a reason for that though), and numerous other Dark Jedi. I mean, seriously, he defeated seven Dark Jedi in combat, including Jerec (who was a fully trained Jedi as well), without much training at all actually. And keep in mind that Jerec was trained by Sidious himself, and Vader. Kyle was the Battlemaster as well of the era. He was able to defeat Boba when working as a mercenary, and numerous other Imperial troopers. And also challenged Mara herself without any training still. I'd say he has far more combat experience than Sadow.

We've seen Sadow battle Ludo Kressh, that's about it. We know Kyle has defeated fully trained opponents while having little training, and now he's a lightsaber master, a Battlemaster at that with a lot of experience. I'd say he can defeat Sadow.

Not to mention, he's also got Mara Jade to help out. While I don't think she's much of a match for Sadow, she's a nice icing on the cake.

I'd say, it's not. You have one thing you parade around "amulet blasts", what the hell? To what power can he even use it? And also some advice: quit making a straw man argument.



Actually, it is. My logic is simple: facts. You're logic is simple, too: assumptions. Do you know which one wins? Facts.



Really now?




Those things imply that in an "all out battle" Sadow will definitely win. And seriously, Kyle > Sadow in saber combat. There's also Mara Jade, too for a sacrificial lamb. Unless, you're going to actually make a viable argument as to why Sadow is superior to Katarn in a swordfight, stop parading around saying "quantify, compare, O RLY, l0l, pwnage, heavy sword". Wow, heavy sword is all you need to say? All I have to say is "Kyle and a lightsaber pwns Sadow and a broadsword". Plus, the simple fact the amulet blasts could only be comparable to the one Kun used on Aleema.



Because Dor-Gal-Ram helped Kressh? And he was actually named?

Oh, I'm sorry. You imply it, despite you claiming they wouldn't own all, you still imply it heavily. Sadow > Kun? Lawls.



So far, Sexy, you haven't shown anything. Congratulations. You do though, like to say one word "amulet", so how is this going to help him in an ALL out battle, huh, where it's not just the Force?



How Sadow could ever dream to stop Katarn in a swordfight, and the magnitude of the blasts that Sadow can produce.



Or not even singe him (Aleema blast). I want you to prove the above, and specifically how Sadow could ever even dream of beating Kyle in a swordfight.



Hm, let's see. Say Sadow uses an amulet blast, Mara takes the sacrifice, Kyle engages Sadow in direct combat, and kills him. Kyle is - from what we know and can't deduct - Sadow's superior in a swordfight. Then again, there's still the matter of magnitude. If it's like the Aleema blast, or what Cay did to Nomi and Cay - how the hell will that stop Katarn? And yes, it is a possibility that's the most he can do.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Uh ok "lightsnake"? Yet in fact you do have to quantify the 7 fully trained dark Jedi. Could they all take out Sidious, Vader, Kun, Yoda? Oh that's right, him defeating 7 dark Jedi says he is most likely quite good with a saber.

With little to no training while they were all fully trained Jedi. One trained by Sidious and Vader himself. Quantify the power of Vodo, quantify the power of Sadow compared to Ragnos, quantify the power of x, y, and z. Jesus christ, they are formidable opponents and Jerec is one of the galaxy's biggest threats. And yet Kyle slew them all with no training.



Glad, you're comparisons make no sense. Jaden Korr didn't fight the seven Dark Jedi, he fought the pawns. Jerec, Yun, Sariss, Boc, Pic and Gorc, and Maw are the seven Dark Jedi, they aren't just "some group of average DJs". They all were above the Dark Jedi that Jaden defeated, on top of that. If you want to use the gameplay (since you say "defeated a shitload" Kyle defeated half an army of Dark Jedi himself without any real training. Your comparisons aren't correct, and plus Jaden was pwned through an entire room by Kyle anyways.



Defense mechanism? What the hell? You are the psycho here, Sexy, what are you talking about? You really didn't even know what you were talking about, and I showed you why, and yet you still say "defense mechanism". Good tactic I must say, using what you really are doing, and saying it's me.



Did I say that? z0mg!? No, I didn't! I never said Kyle > Luke. Glad to know you're still making shit up, Sexy. Hell, even in my original post I said there was a reason as to why Luke didn't defeat Desann. Also glad to know you can read, comprehend, and know what the hell you're talking about. Plus, just because he defeated Desann and Luke didn't, doesn't mean Kyle > Luke anyways. So, quit:

a.) Committing straw man argument.
b.) Making shit up.
c.) Talking out of your ass.



How is it logical? So, when I say Kyle engages him in saber combat - it's not logical? You clearly are mistaken. What magnitude is the blast again? Oh? You don't know? Well, "golly gosh", isn't that a surprise.



Wow, good job on being a psychic and still trying to weaken my argument. What he did without training was incredible, to assume he hasn't grown expotentially more powerful is ludacris. Plus the fact I never said "100x" more powerful, you dolt.

Quit. Making. Shit. Up. And. Trying. To. Weaken. My Argument. By. Doing. Such



But you still said it, and you still are pulling stuff from your ass. Why would you assume I'll say it? In my first post, I even said Sadow > Kyle in the Force probably.



I know.



Show me what I "made up" and tried to use as fact?



What? How is the Force "limitless"? We don't know if Sadow can use Force grip, lightning, and so on. We know he can drop a brick on someone's head. And WTF is the point of this really? If you're referring to the blasts,we don't know the magnitude. They could be comparable to the blast Kun used on Aleema. Furthermore, nothings definite, so stop treating it like such (i.e. "leave a hole in his chest"



Except I didn't say that, so stop trying to reformat my argument, and get a clue. Also, I've made an argument for Kyle being superior in saber combat, you haven't made a viable argument as to the:

a.) Magnitude of the blasts.
b.) How Sadow will even win.
c.) How Sadow could be close to Kyle in a swordfight.

That is the difference between my argument and yours.



Do you not understand? Are you saying that the Exile can't kill the Jedi Masters for sure, just because it was in the Darkside ending? That's what I'm trying to say, we've seen Katarn do it already, even though the ending isn't canon, it's ridiculous to assume just because the ending changed that he wouldn't be able to do it if the situation were to arise.

And really, here's the thing: you're acting like whoever has the superior power in the Force will win. That's not the case, and more often than not - they always engage in a sword battle anyways.

'Is there any proof Sadow can even make a blast on par with Kun's?'

It's extremely likely that Sadow's blasts would be at least as powerful as Kun's because he firstly created the amulets and would thus know them inside out and secondly, he had decades to learn and master them. Kun's learning of them was clearly rushed (which has its pros and cons) and there's no actual evidence that he was even stronger in the force than Sadow.

Kun:Froze entire Senate of millions of beings with minimal effort.Made Amulet blast so powerful,it destoryed/disintigrated one of Sadow's most deadliest and powerful Sithspawn,as well as dozens of Massassi Warriors.PWNed Vodo Siosk Baas,almost instantly.Was able to recover/learn a lot of Sith Alchemy in a very short amount of time.Destoryed the Spirit of Freedon Nadd with minimal effort.

Sadow:Chucked a brick at Ludo Kressh.

Yeah,I'd say Kun's a hell of a lot better than Sadow, given what we've seen.

And when the f**k are you going to answer my question in the 'Sion Force Storm' thread,Nebaris?

Originally posted by Sith'ari
'Is there any proof Sadow can even make a blast on par with Kun's?'

It's extremely likely that Sadow's blasts would be at least as powerful as Kun's because he firstly created the amulets and would thus know them inside out and secondly, he had decades to learn and master them. Kun's learning of them was clearly rushed (which has its pros and cons) and there's no actual evidence that he was even stronger in the force than Sadow.

Just because he built them , doesn't mean he would be able to produce a blast of the same size, since they are only meant to do three things apparently:

1.) Blasts.
2.) Destroy spirits.
3.) Project messages.

How would Sadow having a greater knowledge of the weapon mean he can produce the blast of the same size? Especially when it's only meant to do three things. Plus, just because a blacksmith built a sword, doesn't mean the smith is actually a good swordsman.

What question?

@ Advent, true but he still likely had more time to learn t master them. Kun had less than a year.

Wait... What just happened? Your post is different, but there's no 'edited by Advent' underneath it. Hmm...

I originally posted this:

Originally posted by Borbarad
Talking about Kun's situation: Sadow possibly needed years to figure out how to create his amulets. Kun figured out how to use them in the matter of seconds. So Sadow probably had a greater "theoretical" knowledge about the amulets but still he can't use them "better" as Kun because they just do what they do. That somebody has the know-how to build a rifle doesn't mean he's an excellent shooter.

And then changed it to my own version.

Originally posted by Advent
Just because he built them , doesn't mean he would be able to produce a blast of the same size, since they are only meant to do three things apparently:

1.) Blasts.
2.) Destroy spirits.
3.) Project messages.

How would Sadow having a greater knowledge of the weapon mean he can produce the blast of the same size? Especially when it's only meant to do three things. Plus, just because a blacksmith built a sword, doesn't mean the smith is actually a good swordsman.

Much of that is true, but the amulets clearly have multiple functions and are pretty complex (the way they act as a gauge for the user to channel their hate and anger and strength in the force and then amplify it), much more so than a simple blacksmith's sword, so it would be logical that the creator would know it a little bit better than someone who has learnt it in less than a year in such a rushed way as Kun did, no matter how great his affinity was.

Originally posted by Sith'ari
Much of that is true, but the amulets clearly have multiple functions and are pretty complex (the way they act as a gauge for the user to channel their hate and anger and strength in the force and then amplify it), much more so than a simple blacksmith's sword, so it would be logical that the creator would know it a little bit better than someone who has learnt it in less than a year in such a rushed way as Kun did, no matter how great his affinity was.

Yeah, though, it's not a definite. Nothing is really, it could be as big as the blast he used on Aleema, or it could be the size of the one that destroyed the Sith Wyrm. Thing is, Sadow needed years to perfect the amulets, and develop them, and such. Exar Kun already had all of Sadow' teachings, so he doesn't need to go through the works of actually figuring it out, since he already has what Sadow has laid down.

True. There's no real definite way of knowing.

Is there any proof Sadow can even make a blast on par with Kun's?
I didn't think so.

You're right Sama, it's more logical to assume Kun, who had a year to study Sadow's knowledge, is more capable of using a powerful blast than Sadow, who created the amulet and had his whole life to study sith magic/sith alchemy/force channeling.. Yes.... Right..


And here you are arguing about the blasts. It's possible the blasts are as strong as what Kun used on Aleema, which only knocked her down.

It is quite possible, even likely that the blast Kun used on the sith wyrm was different than the one used on Aleema. If you recall, Ulic had another amulet that created the same kind of non lethal blast.



Worth nothing, since we don't even know what they are. Sure, he's powerful, no denying that, but as you seem so fond to say to me "this isn't a 'Force only' match", and Kyle also tossed Jaden through an entire room with the Force, if I recall correctly.

Yes and Kyle>Jaden, we already know this, what's your point. I know this isn't a force only match, I'm stating that Sadow has the superior force knowledge.


Incapable? You're asking me to do something virtually impossible. How the f*ck can I quantify their power?

My point exactly. Those dark jedi could have have been powerful, or not powerful at all. The fact that you're basing Kyle's superiority over Sadow on mainly this fact, is the reason I brought this up.

Uh, feat wars? It's called combat experience, and reason to believe Kyle > Sadow. Sadow causing solar manipulations on the Dena rii Nova is irrelevant, because he used his ship. And, on top of all that, Kyle did this with little to no real Jedi training.

Kyle did what with little real training, blow up a star? What are you talking about? And combat experience means only so much. I could for example, the likes of Odan Urr or Vodo had more combat experience than Yoda, yet Yoda was more powerful. So my point again was, combat experience means only so much in an all out fight.


Well, let's see: considering Jerec was trained by Sidious himself and Vader, was a fully trained Jedi, considered to be one of the galaxy's biggest threats, and had a boost from the Valley of the Jedi and Kyle managed to defeat him with no real Jedi training, I'd say yes. He's not "all of the sudden greater", I don't see where anyone has said Sadow > Kyle in any past debates. And you've yet to actually prove how Sadow would beat Kyle in a swordfight, given what we know - Kyle would win.

I've yet to see anyone put Kyle above Sadow too. And I never argued that Sadow>Kyle in saber combat, I simply stated that you can't say Kyle>Sadow because of the lack of evidence on Sadow's saber fighting abilities.





No Sama if you read what I said you would quit making shit up. I said he showed great speed, PERIOD, not that it was greater than Kyle's. Talk about reading comprehension.

But wait, how could I forget? General Grievous killed Obi-Wa...oh no, he didn't despite Grievous slinging his lightsabers around like buzzsaws. WTF does them swinging a damn sword have to do with anything? Given that Jedi can use the Force to speed up their movements.

This probably goes into the earlier paragraph, but tell me something Sama. How many people have you seen use force speed in a lightsaber fight? I can only recall Luke and Sidious, who both were trained enough to use it without slicing themselves into little bitty pieces. Otherwise EVERYBODY would be using it no?



They haven't shown us anything to compete with the likes of Katarn, and you can't deduct shit from their fights.

In a saber fight? Perhaps not. If you're referring to overall, I guess them creating the massive force drain technique as one of their many abilities, means they couldn't compete with the likes of Kyle. In other words, you're full of ****. Like I said, it's a little different with saber combat because we DONT KNOW THEIR CAPABILITIES..



You see, the phrase only works when it's true. How am I making shit up? You did say "amulet and sword, all that's needed to be said". That is fanboyism, so quit making shit up about me making shit up.

Lying will not save you.

Neither will your lack of reading comprehension. Notice how I said that pertaining to this thread, meaning Sadow could possibly use his amulet and Kyle would most likely not be able to stop it.


Against what? If you tell me the magnitude, I'll give you an answer. First of all, it's possible it could be the same size blast Kun used on Aleema, which only knocked her down. And second of all, I'll be you: "Lightsaber is all that needs to be said", how is Sadow going to beat Kyle? Jesus christ, you haven't given me a shred of proof for anything other than "bl4sts = d3ad ka4tarn". You forget Mara Jade is also here.

Yes, I haven't given you a shred of proof in terms of lightsaber combat, and you haven't given me a shred of proof in force abilities.




Actually, it is. My logic is simple: facts. You're logic is simple, too: assumptions. Do you know which one wins? Facts.

Your logic is facts? Oh really Sama? Denial much? Kyle>Sadow=logical possibility. Sadow>Kyle in force abilities=logical possibility. I'm sorry to tell you that you don't have facts Sama, just assumptions, either logical or not. Unless you need me to look up the definition of fact for you. Kyle>Sadow=/cold hard irrefutable facts..Same goes with Sadow>Kyle. But please, if you wish to convince yourself that your logic=fact, go ahead.




Those things imply that in an "all out battle" Sadow will definitely win. And seriously, Kyle > Sadow in saber combat. There's also Mara Jade, too for a sacrificial lamb. Unless, you're going to actually make a viable argument as to why Sadow is superior to Katarn in a swordfight, stop parading around saying "quantify, compare, O RLY, l0l, pwnage, heavy sword". Wow, heavy sword is all you need to say? All I have to say is "Kyle and a lightsaber pwns Sadow and a broadsword". Plus, the simple fact the amulet blasts could only be comparable to the one Kun used on Aleema.

Reading comprehension fails you again. I never said Sadow>Kyle in saber combat, quit making shit up again. And you can say those amulet blasts could be comparable to the ones used on Aleema, or they could be on the quantity of the sith wyrm. Yet it's all speculation. Not to mention it's possible that Kun's blast on aleema was different than Kun's blast on the sith wyrm.

Originally posted by Advent
Oh, I'm sorry. You imply it, despite you claiming they wouldn't own all, you still imply it heavily. Sadow > Kun? Lawls.

I fail to see how this is an implication of "Ancient sith pwn all" or "Ancient sith are the masters of the universe". "lawls"



So far, Sexy, you haven't shown anything. Congratulations. You do though, like to say one word "amulet", so how is this going to help him in an ALL out battle, huh, where it's not just the Force?

As opposed to "omgz he beat 7 DJ and desann, he must own sadow in EVERYTHING!



How Sadow could ever dream to stop Katarn in a swordfight, and the magnitude of the blasts that Sadow can produce.

I never said he would, I'm saying your "we know nothing about him so he must suck at saber fighting" logic is fallible.



Or not even singe him (Aleema blast). I want you to prove the above, and specifically how Sadow could ever even dream of beating Kyle in a swordfight.

You're assuming again that Sadow sucks because we haven't seen him. And I never said Sadow was superior to anybody in saber combat. I'm saying it' I-N-C-O-N-C-L-U-S-I-V-E. You automatically turn that into "kyle pwns". Kun never defeated 7 DJ at once, so Kyle>Kun?



Hm, let's see. Say Sadow uses an amulet blast, Mara takes the sacrifice, Kyle engages Sadow in direct combat, and kills him. Kyle is - from what we know and can't deduct - Sadow's superior in a swordfight. Then again, there's still the matter of magnitude. If it's like the Aleema blast, or what Cay did to Nomi and Cay - how the hell will that stop Katarn? And yes, it is a possibility that's the most he can do.

And yet we know that Sadow's own creation is triggered upon one's anger, so it is VERY LOGICAL to assume the angrier Sadow is, the more powerful the blast. Now unless Sadow is as angry as a cute little puppy dog, it's more than likely that his blast is more powerful than the one used on Aleema, at the very LEAST.

The thing is, we know that Kyle was an exceptional duelist, and while it's possible that Sadow was leagues above Kyle in terms of swordsmanship (very very very unlikely), there is no proof that he is even close and logic dictates otherwise.

And again I was not arguing Sadow>Kyle in saber combat. We know nothing about Sadow's fighting abilities and we know a lot about Kyle's. So it's logical deduction+lack of evidence that points to this possibility. It's not a cold hard irrefutable fact.

'And again I was not arguing Sadow>Kyle in saber combat. We know nothing about Sadow's fighting abilities and we know a lot about Kyle's. So it's logical deduction+lack of evidence that points to this possibility.'

Well why did you state that me saying that Kyle would likely beat him in a saber duel was the dumbest thing you've ever heard then?

I misread your statement, in a saber duel it is likely, in a force battle it is not.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You're right Sama, it's more logical to assume Kun, who had a year to study Sadow's knowledge, is more capable of using a powerful blast than Sadow, who created the amulet and had his whole life to study sith magic/sith alchemy/force channeling.. Yes.... Right..

Originally posted by Advent
Just because he built them , doesn't mean he would be able to produce a blast of the same size, since they are only meant to do three things apparently:

1.) Blasts.
2.) Destroy spirits.
3.) Project messages.

How would Sadow having a greater knowledge of the weapon mean he can produce the blast of the same size? Especially when it's only meant to do three things. Plus, just because a blacksmith built a sword, doesn't mean the smith is actually a good swordsman.



It created a lethal blast, I doubt it was the same blast though:

http://img350.imageshack.us/img350/9600/ulicamuletmz1.th.jpg

The one Kun used on Aleema was similiar in color to the one he used on the Wyrm, and was also shot like a projectile:

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/1195/kunaleemablastca6.th.jpg



Didn't I already explain the seven Dark Jedi were powerful? They are not the "average" Dark Jedi, or Reborns. They are the Seven Dark Jedi. Jerec was trained by Lord Vader, Jocasta Nu, and Sidious himself. He was also capable of cutting people off from the Force ("Jerec has the uncanny power to absorb and overshadow one’s connection to The Force", was a fully trained Jedi, he had a boost from the Valley of the Jedi when he fought Kyle, and Qu Rahn had said this:

"If Jerec captures this power, he will be a creature such as the universe has never seen. A supernova of stars in a fleeting thought. The eradication of life from a star system in a whisper will be within his power."

And Jerec did get a boost from the Valley of the Jedi when fighting Kyle, yet Kyle still defeated him even with no real training. And, Jerec was also viewed as one of the galaxy's biggest threats.

He also defeated six other fully trained Jedi. Boc, who used dual lightsabers, and used an unorthodox style. Pic and Gorc, who were described as: "Pic is the energy and Gorc, the counter. They are the clashing balance of opposites: one, the voice; the other, the body. This combination is deadly."

Sariss, who was also a master in lightsaber combat, "Out of all the Dark Jedi I have met, Sariss is the one I can say I fear. Powerful, strong in both the physical and mental arenas of the Force, she is a master, a perfectionist, quiet and reserved. This makes her a very dangerous foe."

Yun, who was young and somewhat inexperienced, but nonetheless powerful, "These elements make him a dangerous and unpredictable foe." Then you have Maw, who's only half a body anyways, lol, but is still described as a "strong and formidable foe".

So, it would seem that the seven Dark Jedi Kyle faced weren't average, and were all described as being powerful. We know Jerec is the most powerful out of all of them, and still Kyle beat him.



I meant for that to go in front of Sadow blowing up a star. As to say Kyle beat Jerec and the others with little training.



There's a difference. I'm talking about direct combat experience, i.e. fighting with a sword. And Odan Urr, apparently, only fought with the Force (stripping people of it, BM, etc.), and Vodo trained students for 600 some years. Yoda trained students as well, but probably had more sparring matches than Odan.

Anyways, the point was: I doubt Sadow has taken on as many opponents in a duel as Kyle has, while you're right, it doesn't account for everything, it does mean something. Kyle also has experience dealing with unorthodox fighting, and the like. Either way though, it does give him an edge, even if it's little.



So, because I misread it - we should talk about reading comprehension? Well, if that's the case, we need to get you immediate help.



Actuall