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There was a thread in the OTF that caused many of us to believe a certian new member will/has commited suicide. I brought up the thing that suicide isn't justifiable. But my question is "Is suicide justifiable?"

In the end, it is your own life. Spend it as you will.

Originally posted by TheKingofKINGS!
There was a thread in the OTF that caused many of us to believe a certian new member will/has commited suicide. I brought up the thing that suicide isn't justifiable. But my question is "Is suicide justifiable?"

It's definately understandable in some cases. But it's still a very selfish thing to do.

Understandable, yes, but in very few circumstances is suicide justifiable, in my opinion. For example, if someone was in extreme physical pain and was terminally ill, I believe suicide would be justified...

Everything can be justified...

I think it is. I personally could justify it at least.

Originally posted by DeVi| D0do
Understandable, yes, but in very few circumstances is suicide justifiable, in my opinion. For example, if someone was in extreme physical pain and was terminally ill, I believe suicide would be justified...
In my opinion that's not really suicide. That's just giving up. Unless they slit their throat for that reason, I don't think it's suicide. Telling people to take her off life support is another story, but, whatever.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I think it is. I personally could justify it at least.

As could i...

Originally posted by pr1983
As could i...
How can a moral person justify suicide? There's really no reason other than some terminal illness that causes mass suffering that can justify suicide. Depression can be dealt with, and a lot of people commit suicide for stupid reasons.

Originally posted by TheKingofKINGS!
How can a moral person justify suicide? There's really no reason other than some terminal illness that causes mass suffering that can justify suicide. Depression can be dealt with, and a lot of people commit suicide for stupid reasons.

Because everyone that lives should (imo) certainly have the right to decide when to end it?

Originally posted by TheKingofKINGS!
a lot of people commit suicide for stupid reasons.

Stupid reasons? What would be a stupid reason? I can't think of any reason that would be stupid. I mean even if it is because you didn't get marmalade on your bread...whatever finds your lost remote, ya know what I mean?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Stupid reasons? What would be a stupid reason? I can't think of any reason that would be stupid.

You can't? How about if you caught your woman cheating on you?

Rash = stupid.

Ever heard the song "Everybody Plays the Fool" by The Main Ingredient?

I believe its the easy way out.

Originally posted by Devalion
I believe its the easy way out.

So do I.

Originally posted by Devalion
I believe its the easy way out.

The easy way out that's the right of every living human?

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
You can't? How about if you caught your woman cheating on you?

Rash = stupid.

Ever heard the song "Everybody Plays the Fool" by The Main Ingredient?

If you want to kill yourself afterwards, cool...I probably wouldn't...but it's your right to end your life at any given point.

A life wasted is a life in need of help

Originally posted by TheKingofKINGS!
How can a moral person justify suicide? There's really no reason other than some terminal illness that causes mass suffering that can justify suicide. Depression can be dealt with, and a lot of people commit suicide for stupid reasons.

You'd be surprised what a human mind can justify under certain circumstances...

Originally posted by Devalion
I believe its the easy way out.

That's a tad insulting don't you think? It's their life, if they don't like it, then its their choice what to do with it...

Originally posted by pr1983
That's a tad insulting don't you think? It's their life, if they don't like it, then its their choice what to do with it...
That's a tad insulting to life itself isn't it?

Originally posted by DeVi| D0do
That's a tad insulting to life itself isn't it?

Life can't be insulted, people can be. then again they are dead now, so who cares...insult away.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Life can't be insulted, people can be. then again they are dead now, so who cares...insult away.
Life can be insulted... it just wont take any offense.

Originally posted by DeVi| D0do
Life can be insulted... it just wont take any offense.

True.

Originally posted by DeVi| D0do
That's a tad insulting to life itself isn't it?

it's their life... their choice... if they don't like it, then they're free to do with it as they please...

i can't believe anyone would actually say its the easy way out... imagine actually killing yourself... imagine physically going through with it... that can't be easy...

Originally posted by pr1983
it's their life... their choice... if they don't like it, then they're free to do with it as they please...

i can't believe anyone would actually say its the easy way out... imagine actually killing yourself... imagine physically going through with it... that can't be easy... Well, it certainly is the easiest way for them...or they wouldn't do it. For me it would be really, reallly hard, so I don't do it.

Nobody can justify it beside the person doing it, and since they are dead, it's left to those who are around to analyse it.

Yes, it's selfish and very unnecessary, but I do believe it's understandable. I don't think murder is excuseable, but if a man murders another man to save his child, as wrong as it is, I understand that action.

Same with suicide. Unless of course I feel the reason for doing it was pathetic, but then again, they obviously didn't.

As a friend said the other day, I don't get all this "Cry for help" stuff. If you genuinely do want to die, you can do it in ways that guarantee death.

-AC

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, it certainly is the easiest way for them...or they wouldn't do it. For me it would be really, reallly hard, so I don't do it.

Maybe it is that hard, but they choose that over the alternative, which to them may be much worse...

Originally posted by pr1983
Maybe it is that hard, but they choose that over the alternative, which to them may be much worse...

So the alternatives would be harder, see the general connection?

Originally posted by Bardock42
So the alternatives would be harder, see the general connection?

I said the alternative would be worse, not harder...

their life may suck, but its physically easier to go on with the same shit over and over... at least to me...

Originally posted by pr1983
I said the alternative would be worse, not harder...

their life may suck, but its physically easier to go on with the same shit over and over... at least to me...

I said it would be harder if it was worse...

And yeah, it might be physically easier..but I think we are talking about mentally here.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I said it would be harder if it was worse...

And yeah, it might be physically easier..but I think we are talking about mentally here.

K...

and mentally, sure... but what i mean is... imagine standing with a razor blade in one hand and a bare wrist in the other (so to speak), i think it takes an awful lot to actually go through with something like that... that one action alone probably stops people from killing themselves because they decide that its too hard and maybe they should give life another chance...

Originally posted by pr1983
K...

and mentally, sure... but what i mean is... imagine standing with a razor blade in one hand and a bare wrist in the other (so to speak), i think it takes an awful lot to actually go through with something like that... that one action alone probably stops people from killing themselves because they decide that its too hard and maybe they should give life another chance...

Yeah in that case living their life would be easier, wouldn't it?

I think there's nothing wrong with suicide...I also don't think it is something great or extraordinary that necessarily has to be respected.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Yeah in that case living their life would be easier, wouldn't it?

I think there's nothing wrong with suicide...I also don't think it is something great or extraordinary that necessarily has to be respected.

I'd tend to agree with you there... i just get a bit steamed when people speak badly of people who've done it, thats all...

I didn't mean you in particular, just to be clear...

Hmmm. Theoretically I can't condemn a persons choice to commit suicide, though I wish they didn't have to feel like that, as so often there is no need for it to end in such a way. Problems can be overcome, things can get better. It is their choice, but it is unfortunate especially when it is particularly pointless.

The hardest part I see of it, is the result a suicide has on those who cared for the suicide "victim" - however it seems, in many cases, that the victim sometimes is in such a state of mind that they believe what they are doing is the best for all concerned - and I couldn't be mad at such a person. I have heard suicide described as a selfish act, and there are plenty of reasons why that might be true, but still it is surprising sometimes the number whose actions, in different circumstances, might be considered almost "noble" in conceptual terms



Depends on the means to the end. For people beyond their teens it is more common for alcohol of other substances the remove inhibition to be involved - one theory put forward that a teen or younger is less understanding, less fearful, while an adult has more difficulty facing death in a brutally sober fashion - to much thought, to much routine in life. Likewise the predominance of methods that prevent going back, that remove all choice once put into effect is more common the older the person is.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Depends on the means to the end. For people beyond their teens it is more common for alcohol of other substances the remove inhibition to be involved - one theory put forward that a teen or younger is less understanding, less fearful, while an adult has more difficulty facing death in a brutally sober fashion - to much thought, to much routine in life. Likewise the predominance of methods that prevent going back, that remove all choice once put into effect is more common the older the person is.

that can be true, but a teen is more likely to find a justification easily than an adult... when your a teen your priorities are different... things that seem so important when your 16 really don't matter by the time you hit your twenties...

Originally posted by pr1983
that can be true, but a teen is more likely to find a justification easily than an adult... when your a teen your priorities are different... things that seem so important when your 16 really don't matter by the time you hit your twenties...

To a degree that is true. Which can make it all the more saddening, as rarely is a problem so great that it can not be overcome.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
To a degree that is true. Which can make it all the more saddening, as rarely is a problem so great that it can not be overcome.

yeah...

Indeed, so while I am unable to say "No, it is wrong and evil etc" - I would urge any person contemplating it to seek advice and think very, very carefully before choosing such a course - as often when we take a good step back and look at ourselves, things are rarely truly and insurmountably dire.

In my view, the only time I could see myself taking my own life would be something like the people at masada. When you know that you're going to die anyways, and killing yourself keeps the enemy from getting what they want.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Indeed, so while I am unable to say "No, it is wrong and evil etc" - I would urge any person contemplating it to seek advice and think very, very carefully before choosing such a course - as often when we take a good step back and look at ourselves, things are rarely truly and insurmountably dire.

I agree...

is suicide justifiable? justifiable is a matter of opinion. however i have often pondered whether or not the human race would blink out of existance if it operated on pure logic. if we had the logic to see our uselessness to everything besides ourselves, and we had no passion or delusion, the passion which drives us and the delusion which assures us that we all have a greater purpose....would we all just end up saying "**** it"? not out of depression, mind you, but sheer logic alone.

Bottom line is, people who are opposed to the pro-suicidal shouldn't argue or retaliate. They should just say, "Go Ahead."

I don't follow on that one. The should just ignore their conscience? I agree that force shouldn't be used but if they can talk someone out of it, then I say go for it.

Translation: Hasta La Vista...I've got better things to do than argue with someone who's not going to change anyone in this world's mind.

Originally posted by TheKingofKINGS!
There was a thread in the OTF that caused many of us to believe a certian new member will/has commited suicide. I brought up the thing that suicide isn't justifiable. But my question is "Is suicide justifiable?"

maybe

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Nobody can justify it beside the person doing it, and since they are dead, it's left to those who are around to analyse it.

Yes, it's selfish and very unnecessary, but I do believe it's understandable. I don't think murder is excuseable, but if a man murders another man to save his child, as wrong as it is, I understand that action.

Same with suicide. Unless of course I feel the reason for doing it was pathetic, but then again, they obviously didn't.

-AC

It's a permanant solution to what is usually a temporary problem.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Nobody can justify it beside the person doing it, and since they are dead, it's left to those who are around to analyse it.

Yes, it's selfish and very unnecessary, but I do believe it's understandable. I don't think murder is excuseable, but if a man murders another man to save his child, as wrong as it is, I understand that action.

Same with suicide. Unless of course I feel the reason for doing it was pathetic, but then again, they obviously didn't.

As a friend said the other day, I don't get all this "Cry for help" stuff. If you genuinely do want to die, you can do it in ways that guarantee death.

-AC

If someone kills somebody else in defense of his child, that's not murder. I believe the legal term is "justifiable homicide".

I'm likewise, it there are times when giving your life to save another could be considered a heroic sacrifice rather than a pathetic suicide. The whole jumping if front of a bullet meant for someone else comes to mind.

I would say yes. I know just how cruel and hard life can be and when it reaches that threshold death seems like the best medication.
I always thought however this is only justifyable if one is ill to the point where living is painful. Also if you are not ill then it is justifyable if and ONLY if you have NO-ONE who loves you or would mind if they never saw you again or had NO-ONE who relied on you in an emotional way. In other words if you have nothing to lose. In THAT case suicide is NOT what I call selfish - its your own life then and you can spend it as you will

Originally posted by TheKingofKINGS!
There was a thread in the OTF that caused many of us to believe a certian new member will/has commited suicide. I brought up the thing that suicide isn't justifiable. But my question is "Is suicide justifiable?" I say no because rarely is suicide done in an honorable fashion. Rituals like the captain going down with the ship are outdated, and people do commit suicide for the most idiotic of reasons, like not getting a job you want or finding out your crush is going out with someone else.

Mostly, I say no because suicide is devastating to friends and family. The pain that is caused by say, a son commiting suicide to his mother and father is never justifiable, and anyone who does commit suicide is thinking of themselves instead of the ones who love them

So no more seppukku?

suicide

normally justifiable to the victim but not justifiable to the loved ones{and not blood reletives but people who reeally do love the victim}