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Ten

Brutal but true.

3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.
fear

I liked the list.

Although the full title "Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian" is more appropriate than dropping the term fundamentalist.

That is a brillient list. It is always good to see how satire really cuts away all the fat leaving nothingb but cold hard, reality.

But I guess Regret is right, fundamentalist is the most accurate, but then again they are the loudest, and thus are often seen as the image of Christianity.

Sad, but true true true !

Yes, and taking over the TV and radio, and lets not forget "chick" tracks....

4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."


My favorite one

Hmmmm. Interesting.

Originally posted by Soleran
4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."


My favorite one Hear yeah..........they are not done in the name of love at all!! But FEAR.......NOTHING HAS CHANGED FROM THE first few centuries..........not at all...only tactics..


CHICK CHICK CHICK CHICK..........AND WHAT IS IT WITH THE NAME CHICK????

hens??

Most of these points applied to ignorant and loudest Christians. However, none of these applied to the Christians God wants us to be. I find it sad that so many Christians do not realize God's purpose and will in their lives.

Originally posted by Soleran
4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."


My favorite one

Fundamentalist? Sure.

But I have to step back and play devil's advocate for a second (pun intended). I've spoken to "Christians" who don't believe in hell, or plenty of other things we readily attribute to them.

Does that mean they aren't Christian? It probably depends on who you ask. But it's important to remember not to label them quite so much.

Ok, sermon's over (intended again). So yeah, the list was funny.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Most of these points applied to ignorant and loudest Christians. However, none of these applied to the Christians God wants us to be. I find it sad that so many Christians do not realize God's purpose and will in their lives.

Ah, kinda what he said ^^^^ ...except without all the God's will stuff.

I could have sworn i've seen this list before here but nevertheless its still fun to read.

My fave:

5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.

Well the word "Christian" means Christ Like.......NOT Paul like, otherwise it would be Paulian.....and most Christians are not Christ like.......Jesus didn't judge....He taught love....

What was that list doing on craigslist.com????

I love that pic at the bottom

http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/phx/167335230.jpg

I'M GOD B*TCH!!!!

Originally posted by debbiejo
3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.
fear

No one speaks in tongues anymore through Christ because everything that needs to be said has been said. And further more people have been attacking the Bible to 2000+ years now and no one has succeeded in defeating it because the Bible is true.

Thats supurb logic.

Actually the only reason its survived is that poeple who didn't like it were executed.

Originally posted by Alliance
Thats supurb logic.

Actually the only reason its survived is that poeple who didn't like it were executed.

Didn't? try again. People who believed in Christ were killed. 11 of the 12 Disciples were killed because of their faith. Many people have tried to destroy the Christian fate and none has succeeded.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
No one speaks in tongues anymore through Christ because everything that needs to be said has been said. And further more people have been attacking the Bible to 2000+ years now and no one has succeeded in defeating it because the Bible is true. *claps*

Originally posted by Black Rob
*claps* not really btw

Originally posted by ESB -1138
Didn't? try again. People who believed in Christ were killed. 11 of the 12 Disciples were killed because of their faith. Many people have tried to destroy the Christian fate and none has succeeded.

and Christians responded with 2000 years of unreigned persecution.

Originally posted by Black Rob
not really btw

I don't care what you say. I am here to tell people about Christ. Whether you expect him or not is up to you. But one day every knee will bow and every tongue will confess the name of Christ...in heaven or in hell.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
I don't care what you say. I am here to tell people about Christ. Whether you expect him or not is up to you. But one day every knee will bow and every tongue will confess the name of Christ...in heaven or in hell.
Exactly your problem.

THIS FORUM IS FOR DISCUSSION.

This is not, a come preach your faith forum. Honestly most poeple could care less what you have to preach. Its a place to share ideas not to say who is righter.

Originally posted by Alliance
Exactly your problem.

THIS FORUM IS FOR DISCUSSION.

This is not, a come preach your faith forum. Honestly most poeple could care less what you have to preach. Its a place to share ideas not to say who is righter.

This is a RELIGION form. I have all the right to come and declare the name of Jesus.

ESB, no one in the Christian Faith supports your beliefs, in this century at least, not even Catholics, mainly due to Pope John Paul, he rocked, it's kindive like the Inquisition days

Originally posted by ESB -1138
This is a RELIGION form. I have all the right to come and declare the name of Jesus.

No more than you have the right to spam or advertise in imo.

What youre doing is way beyond declaration imo.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
I don't care what you say. Dont have to hurt my feelings....

coke

Originally posted by Alliance
coke coke will not make me feel better

Originally posted by Alliance
Now you're talking!

The list is not what a "true" Christian should be, but it's what people who call themselves "fundamental" think.

Thats correct, but tis still funny.

Well yeah, I agree, it's hilarious, I mean most Christians are such hypocrites (when it comes to religion).

Most atheists are as well.

A: "...that is why you as an atheist will burn in hell."
B: "Stupid Christian, you blindly believe that? Where is the proof?"
A: "Well... there is the bible..."
B: "Huh... Thought so."
A: "Well where is the proof there is no god?"
B: "Well... there is the LACK of proof."

To think there is no god is one thing, to state there is no God is as stupid as to state there is a God.

Originally posted by Eis
Most atheists are as well.

A: "...that is why you as an atheist will burn in hell."
B: "Stupid Christian, you blindly believe that? Where is the proof?"
A: "Well... there is the bible..."
B: "Huh... Thought so."
A: "Well where is the proof there is no god?"
B: "Well... there is the LACK of proof."

To think there is no god is one thing, to state there is no God is as stupid as to state there is a God. true thats why i'm an agnostic the ultimate middle of the road p*ssy! (according to my minister)

Originally posted by Black Rob
true thats why i'm an agnostic the ultimate middle of the road p*ssy! (according to my minister)
The most rational and logical position.

Originally posted by Eis
The most rational and logical position. yeah thats what i say but most religious and atheists believe you must define life by either by religion or lack thereof. I should just "decide"

Originally posted by Black Rob
true thats why i'm an agnostic the ultimate middle of the road p*ssy! (according to my minister)

Same here, and I didn't mean atheists weren't hypocrites, it's just the "Christian" views are publicized.

Originally posted by Eis
Most atheists are as well.

A: "...that is why you as an atheist will burn in hell."
B: "Stupid Christian, you blindly believe that? Where is the proof?"
A: "Well... there is the bible..."
B: "Huh... Thought so."
A: "Well where is the proof there is no god?"
B: "Well... there is the LACK of proof."

To think there is no god is one thing, to state there is no God is as stupid as to state there is a God.

I believe you can decide. Supernatural beings are stupid cockamanie ideas that were made up my humans. There never has been any evidence, ther isnt eveidence now, there wont be any. For som, including me that is a distinction without a difference.

I coucld be the worlds richest man. An athiest would say: "no you dumbf*ck you're not." An agnostic would say "Well I guess there is the possibility."

There comes a point when the possibility is so small that its stupidly insignificant.

Originally posted by Alliance
There comes a point when the possibility is so small that its stupidly insignificant.

Thats an incorrect analogy. Good trybuddy, but the population divided by the total number of planets is the AVERAGE population per planet.

Since most planets are unihabited...and the average population is 0...its correct.

It also assumes that the universe is infinate, which it likely is not.

In additon to that, its a false measurement because you haven't confirmed that the universe if infinate (you never can). Therefore its likely not accurate.

If you take the average population of KNOWN worlds then you get a number...one that tells you that you will be able to meet people, no matter how small a chance it may be.

You can also better pass judgements because you've OBSERVED people, as opposed to just randomly guessing that something callled "people" that have certain charateristics exist in the universe.

Originally posted by Alliance
In additon to that, its a false measurement because you haven't confirmed that the universe if infinate (you never can). Therefore its likely not accurate.

If you take the average population of KNOWN worlds then you get a number...one that tells you that you will be able to meet people, no matter how small a chance it may be.

You can also better pass judgements because you've OBSERVED people, as opposed to just randomly guessing that something callled "people" that have certain charateristics exist in the universe.

Since I may be insane, and create "people" in my mind, I may not have observed these "people", but only assume I have because I do not have evidence otherwise, my brain is unable to adequately judge whether "people" exist or not.

But then, I believe in what I experience through the sensations relayed into my brain, and I do not believe I am insane. But then, insane people seldom do.



Sorry, I'm just playing with you Alliance. Same with that earlier quote

I know, but the agnostic issue is a valid point. In my mind you could not know in the most absolute terms. But atheism and relgiousism are VERY different. And I don't believe agnosticism is the "moral high ground"

Originally posted by Alliance
I know, but the agnostic issue is a valid point. In my mind you could not know in the most absolute terms. But atheism and relgiousism are VERY different. And I don't believe agnosticism is the "moral high ground" elaborate

People say that Athiests and Religious people are both d*ckheads because they feel they can make a claim about whether god/higher power exists or not.

I say this is not so. I say that while yes, while the possibility that a god could possibly in the wildest of dreams and contrary to all evidence exist...exists, I can still be atheist and be logically superior to everyone.

(of course, Agnostics have no problem saying they're superior, which is what this whole arguemtn is about)

I think that many people are raised on god and have secret desires to keep him around, or at least tolerate what is an absolutely rediculous idea. I think agnostics who claim this argument give an absured amount of weight to the possibility that a god exists.

Originally posted by Alliance
People say that Athiests and Religious people are both d*ckheads because they feel they can make a claim about whether god/higher power exists or not.

I say this is not so. I say that while yes, while the possibility that a god could possibly in the wildest of dreams and contrary to all evidence exist...exists, I can still be atheist and be logically superior to everyone.

(of course, Agnostics have no problem saying they're superior, which is what this whole arguemtn is about)

I think that many people are raised on god and have secret desires to keep him around, or at least tolerate what is an absolutely rediculous idea. I think agnostics who claim this argument give an absured amount of weight to the possibility that a god exists. see your point but i i feel that you shouldnt restrict yourself by just "deciding" what to believe in. I admit i was raised in God and have a mostly christian upbringing,but i dont find myself leaning toward any specific religious idea. If i was to lean towards an ideal it would be karma or something like that. I think no theory is completely outside the realm of possibility but i really dont put faith in anything that outlandish.And in the way i look at it the existence of god might not mean anything anyway given the state of the world,so i guess i'm kind of an apathetic agnostic. I accept my own ignorance and just move on basically.

I don't accept any religious philosophies either. I lean towads intellectualism, trancendentalism, existentialism, liberalism and so on. I reject conservatism and literalism. But I keep an open mind.

Ignorance is a fact of life. Any god that exists has no active effect on the current world, given the evidence.

It's sad that that's the image many people have of Christians. But unfortunately, in some cases, that image isn't far away from the truth. That's the kind of image that Christians like me try very hard to avoid. Ask me anything...I won't judge you. Different opinions and beliefs make the world go round.

exactly the point. Only a Christian would ask a question that everybody learned in 4th grade is a non-question in attempt to save face in their faith. Ofcourse you can't prove a negative. For something to be proven, there must be testable tangible evidence or collected data.......if something does not exist it cannot leave tangible evidence or data to collect. They somehow believe this will save face.......when it only makes them seem even more unintelligent for not knowing this before speaking the words.

actually it's fairly safe to say there is no god precisely because there is no evidence for it. The person making the POSITIVE claim bares the burden of proof. If you say god exists, prove it. You've had 4,000 years.....we're all still waiting. If I tell you I have a pink unicorn in my basement which I frequently mate with my purple dragon......the statement is false until I provide evidence to back it up. Then and only then can my statement be considered not false.

Originally posted by Darth_Erebus
Ten

Christian = one believing in Jesus Christ. Not the stereotype described in your little article.

Originally posted by Alliance
I believe you can decide. Supernatural beings are stupid cockamanie ideas that were made up my humans. There never has been any evidence, ther isnt eveidence now, there wont be any. For som, including me that is a distinction without a difference.

I coucld be the worlds richest man. An athiest would say: "no you dumbf*ck you're not." An agnostic would say "Well I guess there is the possibility."

There comes a point when the possibility is so small that its stupidly insignificant.
Your arguments are always the same and redundant when you argue about atheism. But it's ironic that an individual who claims he leans to intellectualism is an atheist, a belief that there is no god based on opinion rather than facts.

If you think there is no god, that's okay but to claim there is no god because you think there is no god is just ignorant. And furthermore the reason why you believe there is no god is because there is no proof that there is indeed a god but how about matters like... homosexuality, do you believe it's psychological because there is no proof that it's genetic?

Atheists completely believe there is no deity, agnostics might think there is no god but accept the possibility there might be one. Atheists have no proof to back up their claims, agnostics don't need proof to back up their claims.

Agnosticism is definitely on logical higher ground.

Question: Does God exist?
Theist: "Yes"
Atheist: "No"
Agnostic: "I dont know for sure which is why i dont want to answer."

. . . . so avoiding the question/issue ENTIRELY puts agnostics on a HIGHER LOGICAL GROUND than either theists and atheists who give an answer?! Methinks, NOT.

Most agnostics that i know off are atheists who STILL vestigially BELIEVE, hence, AFRAID of Divine Retribution in the afterlife. But since there is NO PROOF that there is a state of afterlife after dying, why FEAR and expect Divine Retribution? Lets not forget that "the Divine" itself ie. God. is itself unproven.

Some proof that there is NO God?

Unanswered prayers.
Unfulfilled prophecies from "divinely inspired" written accounts.

Theists and apparently some agnostics, dont NOTICE and/or RECOGNIZE these as proofs simply because theyre still immersed on certain (cheap and hollow) "catch all" dogmatic interpretations, such as "God works in mysterious ways".

you've got it backwards. People do not proclaim there is no go because they don't believe there's a god. People proclaim there is no god because there is not now nor has ever been evidence of a god. Christians on the other hand are the ones proclaiming there is a god, yet offering no evidence at all to back up this mighty bold statement. You seem to not realize that the burden of proof lies on those making a positive assertion. If you say something exists, as Christians do, it is your job to provide proof to back up your mighty bold claim. People who proclaim no god need not provide anything, as they are not making a bold claim. They are merely pointing out the obvious non-existence of a phenomena. Until there is evidence suggesting something exists, it does not exist. It's just some random idea made up by some cave man, passed down the generation and still believed.

as for your homsexual question, why you are bringing this up here and now.....I don't know......it's irrelevant to the topic at hand. I'm not trying to attack your lifestyle or anything but to be honest, your assumption was correct. Until there is evidence supporting the fact that homosexuality is in fact a trait determined by genes, it is a psychological phenomena. Genes actually do exist, physically. Anything physical can be proven. Until there is evidence supporting this hypothesis that can be physically proven, it is not true. All facts must have irrefutable physical evidence or testable data to support them.

You seem to have gotten it wrong, there was no homosexual question, it was an example. And the reason I used homosexuality as the example to compare it to atheism was simply because it was the first thing that came to mind, many other examples would've explained my point too.


Not bold? Hmm... Someone flat-out saying 1 billion people's belief of a deity is completely wrong and untrue is indeed bold. And one shouldn't make such a statement unless he has something to back it up with. Same goes for Christians (and all religions) obviously but that's not what we're discussing.
And just for my curiousity why the **** is it so obvious there is no deity? Because we can't see it?

People denying Holocaust are often asked for proof to back it up, why shouldn't we do the same to people who deny the existence of a deity?

(the bold portion).......not true. The very word BELIEF, implies it is not fact or truth. If it were recognized as trueh it would be a KNOWN FACT, not a BELIEF. It's obvious that the claim of "there's a diety" is not obvious because we can't see it, it's obvious because there is no evidence or any kind supporting the assertion. We've been begging you Christians for 2000 years......and the Jews longer for evidence of your diety, still none. What's taking you guys so long? Nothing......I repeat nothing in this universe is truth or fact until there is evidence to support it, therefore it is obvious your diety (or anyone elses) is not truth or fact as there is no evidence at all to support it. Put forth some evidence and that all changes..........it is entirely possible a diety could be truth or fact, if one were to ever produce the evidence supporting the assertion. They haven't so it's not. pretty simple.

I really don't see the big problem. You've stated it yourself.....1 billion people......all making the same wild assertion of invisible person/people living in the sky..........why is it not one of those billion can produce any kind of evidence at all to back up this claim? Before I go out and preach to the world about my pink unicorn, I'm damn sure going to have concrete evidence of it's existence in hand to back me up.....as to not be thought a nutjob........

Originally posted by Templares
Question: Does God exist?
Theist: "Yes"
Atheist: "No"
Agnostic: "I dont know for sure which is why i dont want to answer."



Actually it's more like this:

Theist: "Yes"
Athiest: "No"
Agnostic: "Maybe"

Originally posted by Templares
. . . . so avoiding the question/issue ENTIRELY puts agnostics on a HIGHER LOGICAL GROUND than either theists and atheists who give an answer?! Methinks, NOT.


Nope. Agnostics are on the much higher logical ground, because they accept the reality that they do not know for sure. Athiests and Religious people SWEAR that what they beleive is true, even when they have no proof to validify thier claims.

A truly intelligent person is one who realizes that he or she does not know everything. Only an Fool thinks he knows everything.



Originally posted by Templares
Most agnostics that i know off are atheists who STILL vestigially BELIEVE, hence, AFRAID of Divine Retribution in the afterlife. But since there is NO PROOF that there is a state of afterlife after dying, why FEAR and expect Divine Retribution? Lets not forget that "the Divine" itself ie. God. is itself unproven.


They are both unproven.

Originally posted by Templares
Some proof that there is NO God?

Unanswered prayers.
Unfulfilled prophecies from "divinely inspired" written accounts.


This is evidense, but not proof. The "Christian" God may not exist, but that does not erase the possibility of a Superior Force.

Originally posted by Templares
Theists and apparently some agnostics, dont NOTICE and/or RECOGNIZE these as proofs simply because theyre still immersed on certain (cheap and hollow) "catch all" dogmatic interpretations, such as "God works in mysterious ways".


"God works in mysterious ways" is a possibility, but when you analyze all the claims, all the scripture, and all the matter on the subject, you will discover many contradictions, much irrationality, and no clarity.

That claim that God works in mysterious ways seems more like a cop-out than an actual solution.

Originally posted by Evil Dead
(the bold portion).......not true. The very word BELIEF, implies it is not fact or truth. If it were recognized as trueh it would be a KNOWN FACT, not a BELIEF. It's obvious that the claim of "there's a diety" is not obvious because we can't see it, it's obvious because there is no evidence or any kind supporting the assertion. We've been begging you Christians for 2000 years......and the Jews longer for evidence of your diety, still none. What's taking you guys so long? Nothing......I repeat nothing in this universe is truth or fact until there is evidence to support it, therefore it is obvious your diety (or anyone elses) is not truth or fact as there is no evidence at all to support it. Put forth some evidence and that all changes..........it is entirely possible a diety could be truth or fact, if one were to ever produce the evidence supporting the assertion. They haven't so it's not. pretty simple.
Well as you can clearly see in the first post I made you quoted, I am referring to atheists who go further than believing there is no god to state as if it were a fact that there isn't a deity.

And I agree, Christians, Jews, and all religions should prove the existence of their god... But not because they are naive enough to believe in their religions does it mean some atheists should be naive as well and pretend it's somehow obvious and an unwritten law that there is no supernatural being.


Why do you argue with me as if I were a Christian? I agree organized religions should have proof behind their claims. But the fact that they haven't been able to provide proof does not mean in any way that there is no deity.

If there is no evidence, it does not exist. Once evidence is put forth......it shall exist.

Is there any evidence I have that you exist? So does that mean you don't exist?

you need not have evidence that I exist. Truth and fact are not based on what Eis knows. I'm sure there are Encyclopedias full of facts that you do not know.

I exist. I am physical matter that can be tested over and over again, all ending in the same result. I produce many chemicals that can be tested over and over again, all with the same conclusions. I am fact. There is direct physical evidence as well as recordable data that prove my existence. what you know or do not know has no baring on the subject of truth or fact.

Originally posted by Evil Dead
you need not have evidence that I exist. Truth and fact are not based on what Eis knows. I'm sure there are Encyclopedias full of facts that you do not know.

I exist. I am physical matter that can be tested over and over again, all ending in the same result. I produce many chemicals that can be tested over and over again, all with the same conclusions. I am fact. There is direct physical evidence as well as recordable data that prove my existence. what you know or do not know has no baring on the subject of truth or fact.
But how do I know for sure you exist? I certainly can't test your existence myself even though you might claim you indeed do exist. Some people claim they saw god... You claim you exist.

I personally can't prove either of them but I accept they are both possible, one more so than the other of course.

you might want to turn back upon this path you are going down. It's beginning to make you look as though you have a complete lack of knowledge or even what the very definitions of "truth" and "fact" are. That is something none of your previous posts have done. It's better for you to just walk away from the topic altogether and save face than to enter into a debate with me using fallacy laden, illogical posts which show lack of knowledge on the very subject we are conversing about. When one starts doing so, it makes them appear so desperate to proveil that they will say anything, regardless of it's truth......... it's the path of the troll, the darkside.

That said...



you certainly can. that is the great thing about all facts, all truths. They are always there for any person who wishes to test their validity. If you want to test my existence being factual, it's just as easy for you as anyone else in the world. All you must do is come meet me. I will let you take home copies of not only my physical matter (hair, finger nail...your preference). I will let you record data of how I affect the world around me. You can record my body temperature as ice melts on my skin surface......anything you wish (nothing anally, though please).

see....any fact or truth can be tested at any time by anyone. All it takes is the desire to test such facts by the person. If you wish to verify that the andromeda galaxy exists.....go to school....become an astronomer....use your access of great telescopes to view anything in the heavens you wish.

Originally posted by Templares
Question: Does God exist?
Theist: "Yes"
Atheist: "No"
Agnostic: "I dont know for sure which is why i dont want to answer."

. . . . so avoiding the question/issue ENTIRELY puts agnostics on a HIGHER LOGICAL GROUND than either theists and atheists who give an answer?! Methinks, NOT.

Most agnostics that i know off are atheists who STILL vestigially BELIEVE, hence, AFRAID of Divine Retribution in the afterlife. But since there is NO PROOF that there is a state of afterlife after dying, why FEAR and expect Divine Retribution? Lets not forget that "the Divine" itself ie. God. is itself unproven.

Some proof that there is NO God?

Unanswered prayers.
Unfulfilled prophecies from "divinely inspired" written accounts.

Theists and apparently some agnostics, dont NOTICE and/or RECOGNIZE these as proofs simply because theyre still immersed on certain (cheap and hollow) "catch all" dogmatic interpretations, such as "God works in mysterious ways".

God gave us choice, and most prayers interfere with Human choice. Why would he renege on that? One man's garbage is another's man's jewel... but just because one man wants his jewel doesn't mean he'll get it if it'll kill everyone that ocnsiders it garbage. If a terrorist prayed for a Nuclear Weapon, you think he is going to get it overnight?

Why would god answer the billions of selfish prayers out there, and upon those selfish ones, the extremely trivial and pointless ones?

I don't think you are understanding where I'm coming from.

You are saying that it doesn't exist until there's proof, which is somewhat odd considering nothing might exist. There is nothing we can know for certain with no space for doubt. I might meet you, check your passport and do a DNA test but there's a chance it might all be a fraction of my imagination... Nothing has absolute certainty. There is always room for doubt...

I'm not exactly sure how I got there though...

So, no proof, it doesn't exist? What if there is proof? That is yet to be discovered... Or what if "He" simply chose not to leave phisical proof?

I don't know... All I'm trying to say is that since there is always a possibility that a deity exists or that a deity doesn't exist agnosticism is the most logical belief.

this isn't the philosophy forum......we don't deal with abstract thought. The real world, even if one mass illusion as you allude to, is here for all 6 billion people on this planet currently to intract with. Within this world we have a standard. The standard of facts and truths are that they have to be supported by some sort of physical evidence or testable recorded data. It does not matter if this is all one big illusion......if we're in the Matrix.....whatever.......we all share the same reality, therefore it's standard.



there is no such thing as proof that has yet to be discovered. If it hasn't been discoverd, we do not know it exists.......therefore we can not give it a label like "proof" or "evidence". It is simply "something" unknown to man. Once man knows of it, he can label it "evidence", "proof" or whatever.

Your last line, I'm striking from the record as it brings down the total value of your post. Everything in this universe leaves physical evidence or recordable data. There is no reason to think otherwise as not one thing known to man is in contradiction to this. Nothing in this universe has a "choice" whether to do so or not. If it is in our space-time....it has physical properties that can be tested or alters the space-time around it.....allowing this data to be recorded.

But that last line is exactly what I'm arguing for here, all the rest are ways of explaining there are possibilities.


What I meant by "Him" not wanting to leave proof is that he might have not wanted us to find some sort of evidence that proves his existence but still leaving a trace of "His" doing. (Even if we can't scientifically link it to "Him"


Exactly, some people might have thought the earth was moving around the sun in the middle ages but they had no way to prove it. It doesn't mean the earth didn't circle the sun back then though. So yeah, as far as we know we have no way of proving God exists at this time, doesn't mean he doesn't exist though nor does it mean he does.


You're right, that was rather unnecessary.

irrelevant. you are speaking of a past idea we now to to be correct through evidence collected to support it. When speaking on any subject, idea or hypothesis......you must keep it in context, the exact time it was put forth. When the idea first came about of a heliocentric solar system....it was not fact. Even the commonly held assertion of a geocentric solar system was not fact. There were no facts on the subject at all......all ideas were speculation as there was no evidence to support one claim over any other. You do not get the luxury of looking back centuries later and saying, "it was fact"......as any theory or idea must be put in the context of the time it is stated.

The earth revolves around the sun. We know this to be fact today. We have much evidence to support this claim. Was this a fact in 1000AD? No. It was not a fact that the earth revolved around the sun, there were no facts at all on this topic.

In much the same way, does god exist? As of 2006......no. There are no facts to support this claim. If you come back 50 years from now with evidence to support the claim that there is a god, okay......it'll be fact in 2056. This in no way will change the fact that 50 years ago......way back in '06, the existence of god was not a fact.

Originally posted by Evil Dead
irrelevant. you are speaking of a past idea we now to to be correct through evidence collected to support it. When speaking on any subject, idea or hypothesis......you must keep it in context, the exact time it was put forth. When the idea first came about of a heliocentric solar system....it was not fact. Even the commonly held assertion of a geocentric solar system was not fact. There were no facts on the subject at all......all ideas were speculation as there was no evidence to support one claim over any other. You do not get the luxury of looking back centuries later and saying, "it was fact"......as any theory or idea must be put in the context of the time it is stated.

The earth revolves around the sun. We know this to be fact today. We have much evidence to support this claim. Was this a fact in 1000AD? No. It was not a fact that the earth revolved around the sun, there were no facts at all on this topic.

In much the same way, does god exist? As of 2006......no. There are no facts to support this claim. If you come back 50 years from now with evidence to support the claim that there is a god, okay......it'll be fact in 2056. This in no way will change the fact that 50 years ago......way back in '06, the existence of god was not a fact.
Yeah, I agree. It wasn't a fact back then but it was the truth, the people were right. There was no proof to support their theory but it was true.

I'm not saying it's a fact god exists right now, I'm saying there's a chance he does exist. The lack of proof doesn't mean shit, it simply tells us we can't prove there is a god. Nothing more.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Actually it's more like this:

Theist: "Yes"
Athiest: "No"
Agnostic: "Maybe"


It doesnt matter. It still means agnostics, instead of answering the question, AVOIDS it.


Originally posted by Lord Urizen

Nope. Agnostics are on the much higher logical ground, because they accept the reality that they do not know for sure. Athiests and Religious people SWEAR that what they beleive is true, even when they have no proof to validify thier claims.

A truly intelligent person is one who realizes that he or she does not know everything. Only an Fool thinks he knows everything.


And when pray tell are we GOING TO KNOW EVERYTHING or to be more specific, when will we know EXACTLY that god EXISTS?

When we are dead?

I for one am not going to wait until im dead or dying - hell i doubt that that the debate about god's existence will be resolved in my lifetime - to make a decision. Neither will his empty threat of eternal damnation in the afterlife if im WRONG, will dissuade me from making my decision right now. The BULK of evidence -unanswered prayers, unfulfilled prophecies, he/she/it could not be observed - suggest that he DOESNT EXIST and im willing to bet my soul on that (oops sorry i dont believe in a soul).

If God CONCLUSIVELY proves his power and himself to exist that is when im going to admit my mistake and embrace religion again. I mean who wants to suffer eternal damnation if you could do something about it?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen

They are both unproven.



True. Which is why we should not fear god and eternal damnation.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen

This is evidense, but not proof. The "Christian" God may not exist, but that does not erase the possibility of a Superior Force.


And is this "Superior Force" supposed to be WORTHY worshipping like a god? Even if there was something/someone who claims to be this Superior Force (the Creator of the universe, blah,blah,bla), a REAL ATHEIST AND AGNOSTIC would still NOT drop to his knees and go religious on this Superior Force RIGHT AWAY. He has to give us a convincing reason, hopefully peaceful . . . .

Of course, if this "Superior Force" threaten us with Eternal Damnation (in the afterlife or not) and he/she/it is actually CAPABLE of doing it and we ACTUALLY get to OBSERVE it happening, then only then, we would and SHOULD REPENT and turn away from from our godless way of life.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen

"God works in mysterious ways" is a possibility, but when you analyze all the claims, all the scripture, and all the matter on the subject, you will discover many contradictions, much irrationality, and no clarity.

That claim that God works in mysterious ways seems more like a cop-out than an actual solution.

Yes it is a copout dogmatic solution. Theists and apparently some agnostics believe in this which is why they fail to recognize unanswered prayers and unfulfilled prophecies as evidence of God's NONE EXISTENCE.

Where do you get this bullshit? Agnostics accept the simple fact that we can't know, period.

Originally posted by Templares
It doesnt matter. It still means agnostics, instead of answering the question, AVOIDS it.


Maybe is an answer. Is the Universe infinite? Maybe...

You cannot give an Absolute Answer to something you know nothing about. You know nothing about God, neither do religious people...you both only know what you see and are told.

Listen buddy...we only have 5 senses, which don't always work right. We only see the world as we want 2, not as it is. And we all see it differently.

Nobody knows absolute truth, and nobody knows if God really exists or not.

Athiesm and Religion are permanent solutions to an unsolvable problem.


Originally posted by Templares
And when pray tell are we GOING TO KNOW EVERYTHING or to be more specific, when will we know EXACTLY that god EXISTS?


When we know exactly that God doesn't exist?

Both questions have the same answer.....Never.

Originally posted by Templares
When we are dead?

That's the point. We have know way of knowing either possibility, and therefore have no Conclusive answer.



Originally posted by Templares
I for one am not going to wait until im dead or dying - hell i doubt that that the debate about god's existence will be resolved in my lifetime - to make a decision. Neither will his empty threat of eternal damnation in the afterlife if im WRONG, will dissuade me from making my decision right now. The BULK of evidence -unanswered prayers, unfulfilled prophecies, he/she/it could not be observed - suggest that he DOESNT EXIST and im willing to bet my soul on that (oops sorry i dont believe in a soul).


Do what you want...I don't care what you beleive. But when you beleive something that you have no proof of, and then claim it as fact....your logic is flawed.

You are no better than a Religious Zealot on this matter. You share the common decision of claiming something you don't know anything about as Fact. You know nothing about God, no one does. You know almost nothing about this Universe as none of us do.

How the hell can you claim your beleif in God's non existance as Fact, when you have no fkn proof of that whatsoever ?



Originally posted by Templares
If God CONCLUSIVELY proves his power and himself to exist that is when im going to admit my mistake and embrace religion again. I mean who wants to suffer eternal damnation if you could do something about it?


And until then you will CONCLUDE that God does not exist ? Have you any conclusive evidense that God, or any superior force, for that matter do not exist ?



Originally posted by Templares
True. Which is why we should not fear god and eternal damnation.


We can fear whatever we want....

Personally, I don't beleive in any of it. It's all fairy tales to me...but that is JUST my beleif based on much evidense and observation, but not enough for me to claim my beleif as fact.

But hey, if a person wants to be a coward thier entire life, and suppress thier own dreams for the sake of not ending up in Hell...I could care less.

It's when they compell the rest of us to follow that absurd lifestyle that I get mad.


Originally posted by Templares
And is this "Superior Force" supposed to be WORTHY worshipping like a god? Even if there was something/someone who claims to be this Superior Force (the Creator of the universe, blah,blah,bla), a REAL ATHEIST AND AGNOSTIC would still NOT drop to his knees and go religious on this Superior Force RIGHT AWAY. He has to give us a convincing reason, hopefully peaceful . . . .


I worship Life. I worship the fact that I exist, I worship those I love, and I worship Love itself. Is there something wrong with that ?

If someone much stronger than me threatened me with death or torment, than yeah, I'd fkn go way down on my knees...and kiss the fkn ground that they walk on just to keep me safe.

Unfortunately, most Christians do that ANYWAY even without threat of immediate death or torment.



Originally posted by Templares
Of course, if this "Superior Force" threaten us with Eternal Damnation (in the afterlife or not) and he/she/it is actually CAPABLE of doing it and we ACTUALLY get to OBSERVE it happening, then only then, we would and SHOULD REPENT and turn away from from our godless way of life.

Oh yeah, I totally agree lol

Originally posted by Templares
Yes it is a copout dogmatic solution. Theists and apparently some agnostics believe in this which is why they fail to recognize unanswered prayers and unfulfilled prophecies as evidence of God's NONE EXISTENCE.


It's evidence...but not proof.

Answered Prayers and Nastradomous's coincidental predictions are evidense of God's existance, but not proof as well.

Neither side has proof. That's my point.

Originally posted by Eis
Where do you get this bullshit? Agnostics accept the simple fact that we can't know, period. His ass.

Originally posted by Darth_Erebus
Ten Nice. thumbsup

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Maybe is an answer. Is the Universe infinite? Maybe...

You cannot give an Absolute Answer to something you know nothing about. You know nothing about God, neither do religious people...you both only know what you see and are told.

Listen buddy...we only have 5 senses, which don't always work right. We only see the world as we want 2, not as it is. And we all see it differently.

Nobody knows absolute truth, and nobody knows if God really exists or not.

Athiesm and Religion are permanent solutions to an unsolvable problem.


Neither does agnosticism.

The phrase "Nobody knows absolute truth, and nobody knows if God really exists or not." is itself PURE DOGMATIC SPECULATION.

"Oh! You say that we cannot 'know' anything about God's existance?"
"O RLY? How do you know that for SURE? Where's your proof?"

Originally posted by Lord Urizen

Do what you want...I don't care what you beleive. But when you beleive something that you have no proof of, and then claim it as fact....your logic is flawed.

You are no better than a Religious Zealot on this matter. You share the common decision of claiming something you don't know anything about as Fact. You know nothing about God, no one does. You know almost nothing about this Universe as none of us do.

How the hell can you claim your beleif in God's non existance as Fact, when you have no fkn proof of that whatsoever ?


And until then you will CONCLUDE that God does not exist ? Have you any conclusive evidense that God, or any superior force, for that matter do not exist ?




First off, for an atheist, god or a Superior force is none existant until proven otherwise. If a god-claimant proves his godhood under close scientific scrutiny, I doubt there is an atheist who will stay an atheist.

Second, it depends on what you want to COUNT as CONCRETE proof. Most atheists count scientific advancements which dispels the notion of a supernatural being operating in the background as concrete proof that god does not exists. I also count logical and theological refutations of theistic claims for God's existence as concrete proof (after all theists have the burden of proof). Of course, agnostics WILL NOT accept these as PROOFS only insufficient "evidence" (whats the difference?) "because man is simply INCAPABLE of ATTAINING KNOWLEDGE about god's existence."

This stinks like the theistic stance that god is beyond comprehension for us mere mortals.

Bonus quote (and which is why agnosticism for me should not even be a third option between theism and atheism) :

I forgot whos' the agnostic who said that "An Agnostic may think the Christian God as improbable as the Olympians; in that case, he is, for practical purposes, at one with the atheists."

Originally posted by ESB -1138
I don't care what you say. I am here to tell people about Christ. Whether you expect him or not is up to you. But one day every knee will bow and every tongue will confess the name of Christ...in heaven or in hell.

Just because you believe it does not make it true.

Originally posted by Templares
It doesnt matter. It still means agnostics, instead of answering the question, AVOIDS it.


Do you also give answers to complicated and abstract mathematical thoughts you don't know shit about? I mean, I don't. Of course I could always say the answer is 42..what would it help, I would have answered a question and have no clue if I am wrong or not. To not rule out the possibility of something is a logical thought. And though atheism is also logical since there is not one shred of evidence otherwise, agnosticism is the more honest and more true thought.

Originally posted by Darth_Erebus
Ten good likst

Originally posted by Evil Dead
If there is no evidence, it does not exist. Once evidence is put forth......it shall exist.

Not true. In the beginning black holes where just theory. It took some time before we found evidence that they really do exist.

erm....we haven't yet....

Its now just widely accepted.

Originally posted by Alliance
erm....we haven't yet....

Its now just widely accepted.

But there is something in existence in the location we believe a black hole exists, and given the mathematics surrounding observed astrological events and objects, there is little doubt as to the existence of black holes.

Yes. They are extremely probable, but we don't yet have direct observational evidence.

Weren't there observed spouts on a few though?

spouts as in radiation?

Direct observational evidence is impossible because light cannot escape a black hole(ironically proving them to exist). We just see an invisible 'hole' in spacetime.

http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/gr/public/bh_obsv.html

Originally posted by Mr. Sandman
Direct observational evidence is impossible because light cannot escape a black hole(ironically proving them to exist). We just see an invisible 'hole' in spacetime.

http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/gr/public/bh_obsv.html


We can see the matter that is falling into a black hole. They are called quasars.

Originally posted by Alliance
spouts as in radiation?

Dunno, Black holes are donut shape in "appearance" with spouts of material being ejected from the points where the center would be. I believe these have been observed, but I don't remember for sure.

Not to my knowledge.

This one's the truest of them all.