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Chancellor Palpatine reveals himself as Darth Sidious to Anakin, and instead of going to Mace Windu, he strikes at Palpatine, and they engage in a duel...

And yes, I realize I misspelled Sidious in the poll...

Sidious would transfer his spirit to his clones even if Anakin does kill him.

no

True, but who do you think would win the duel?

Anakin is among the best-of-the-best in terms of lightsaber ability. In that alone, he can compete and possibly defeat Sidious. However, in an all out fight, Anakin would lose, due to Sidious's superior Force powers.

Originally posted by Escape81
Anakin is among the best-of-the-best in terms of lightsaber ability. In that alone, he can compete and possibly defeat Sidious. However, in an all out fight, Anakin would lose, due to Sidious's superior Force powers.

I would say the best of the best is Yoda and Anakin doesn't quite get there. But yea he is good enough to beat Sidious in a saber duel.

Why? Sidious was able to defeat 3 jedi masters in a matter of seconds and then almost defeated Mace. He was able to stalemate Yoda in their saber battle.

Mace, Yoda and Sidious are the best of the best. I don't think Anakin is quite in their league.

Originally posted by Sith'ari
Why? Sidious was able to defeat 3 jedi masters in a matter of seconds and then almost defeated Mace. He was able to stalemate Yoda in their saber battle.


Actually almost defeating Mace doesn't count. He was beaten by Mace, and stalemated Yoda while having higher ground, and was disarmed by Yoda.

Originally posted by Sith'ari
Mace, Yoda and Sidious are the best of the best. I don't think Anakin is quite in their league.

Funny, I seem to remember Anakin killing 2 of those three with one hand if I might add.

2 of the 3 with 1 hand? Are you referring to him catching Windu and Sidious off guard? Yea, what a man.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I would say the best of the best is Yoda and Anakin doesn't quite get there. But yea he is good enough to beat Sidious in a saber duel.

Go back and re-read, when I said that Anakin is among the best of the best.

Furthermore:

a. Anakin is a level 9 in terms of lightsaber ability; as is Yoda, Sidious, Mace, and Dooku. They are the only level 9s that have been identified. So, he is on par with all four.

b. This is not just a lightsaber duel. I said that, if it were, Anakin has a good shot of beating Sidious. But this is an all out fight, and Sidious's Force powers in the movies are second to none, including Anakin's own.

c. Anakin is a hot-tempered young man, whereas Sidious is a master manipulator. The mental dominance of the fight would be more in Sidious's favor than it would even be in Obi-Wan's.

d. Yoda and Sidious are virtual equals. Anakin is on par with these two in lightsaber ability. Just not in experience or Force powers, which is why he'd lose in a fight against them.

Originally posted by Escape81
Go back and re-read, when I said that Anakin is among the best of the best.

Furthermore:

a. Anakin is a level 9 in terms of lightsaber ability; as is Yoda, Sidious, Mace, and Dooku. They are the only level 9s that have been identified. So, he is on par with all four.

b. This is not just a lightsaber duel. I said that, if it were, Anakin has a good shot of beating Sidious. But this is an all out fight, and Sidious's Force powers in the movies are second to none, including Anakin's own.

c. Anakin is a hot-tempered young man, whereas Sidious is a master manipulator. The mental dominance of the fight would be more in Sidious's favor than it would even be in Obi-Wan's.

d. Yoda and Sidious are virtual equals. Anakin is on par with these two in lightsaber ability. Just not in experience or Force powers, which is why he'd lose in a fight against them.

What the hell is a level 9? Is that like a level 20 magical paladin? Hmm, you can't base him being on par on pure numbers, because that is wrong. He is NOT on par with Yoda or Sidious overall, he might be on par with Windu in saber combat. I don't see how you base his "on par saber abilities" just on arbitrary numbers..

Originally posted by Escape81
Go back and re-read, when I said that Anakin is among the best of the best.

Furthermore:

a. Anakin is a level 9 in terms of lightsaber ability; as is Yoda, Sidious, Mace, and Dooku. They are the only level 9s that have been identified. So, he is on par with all four.


Eh, Escape? You're using Nick Gillard as a source?

Nick Gillard is hardly reliable.

Well, it's more than what you guys have against it.

Originally posted by Swirly Girl
Eh, Escape? You're using Nick Gillard as a source?

Considering how Nick Gillard was responsible for all of the fight scenes and the lightsaber forms, why, yes I am. Not that he's a canon source, but he is a source.

Nick Gillard, the guy responsible for coordinating and planning the fight scenes and responsible for the implementation of the "Jedi lightsaber forms", has ranked Sidious, Yoda, Dooku, Mace, and Anakin as level nine out of ten in terms of dueling ability.



Hey dumbass, considering how Anakin floored Dooku, was heralded for his lightsaber prowess, and was only one of three people who could contend with Sidious in the PT, yeah, I'd say he's pretty damn good.



DS, try to read sometime. Where did I say that he was on par with them overall?

Now, quit acting like a jackass who knows it all when, apparently, you have a hard time comprehending what I state.



Go back and re-read, smartass, and then think before you type.

'and was only one of three people who could contend with Sidious in the PT'

?

Originally posted by Sith'ari
'and was only one of three people who could contend with Sidious in the PT'

?

Essentially, some of the producers were questioning as to why Mace Windu's companions got their asses hand to them that quick and with such little effort. Why he brought the so-called "B Team".

Lucas said: "You need to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor. If Anakin hadn't been injured on Mustafar, he could've beaten the Emperor."

Oh right.

Originally posted by Escape81
Considering how Nick Gillard was responsible for all of the fight scenes and the lightsaber forms, why, yes I am. Not that he's a canon source, but he is a source.

He's not responsible for the lightsaber forms...He once even denied the existance of Vaapad. So please...

Aside of this Anakin is clearly not able to beat Sidious in a full-out fight. He doesn't have the force powers needed to match Sidious although he might have a chance in a sheer lightsaber fight but even this is debateable.

His force powers and lightsaber abilities weren't enough to defeat Obi-Wan. Sidious would simply outmanouver him (like Obi-Wan finally did) or take him down with his force powers.

In a saber duel Anakin's got a chance, but in an all out fight Anakin gets WTFpwned.

Sidious wins. Seriously, he bested Yoda and took out 3 powerful jedi Masters in 6 seconds while fending off Mace who I would say is more powerful than Anakin, if only just. In pure saber combat I see Anakin maybe beaing able to beat Sidious, maybe, but when you add the Force in Skywalker's a goner.

Anakin would never be able to fight hard against Sidious unless he was in his hot headed idiot state that he was in at Mustafar when he was fighting Obi-wan. If he fights like he did there, Sidious kills him.

Sidious would transfer his spirit to his clones even if Anakin does kill him.

I don't think SIdious even had clone bodies at this point.

I can't see Anakin loosing in a situation like that, after all, he's got to reach his destiny, and the Force wouldn't let him die now would it?

I don't think the force would really care to much if Anakin died because he was actually made by Darth Plagueis according to NEGtC, nlt by the force.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I don't think the force would really care to much if Anakin died because he was actually made by Darth Plagueis according to NEGtC, nlt by the force.

Yet is it not his destiny to destroy the Sith? Albeit, its only arguably him, but its obvious he is Lucas' choice.

But all that kinda stuff makes all these arguments void, so to make it fair game for you guys to argue about, I'll retract my statement about all that philosophical B.S Lucas calls the force

My cousin says in the alternate ending of Revenge of The Sith, Anakin kills Obi-Wan, takes Obi-Wan's lightsaber, goes up to Sidious, and says, "here's your weapon." or something of the sort, and stabs Palpatine. So he wins.

That is the alternative ending in the game. After he kills Obi-Wan he walks up to Sidious. It is Sidious who grants him his new weapon, which is a red lightsaber. Anakin tosses it up in the air and stabbs Palpatine in the stomache, not a pure battle at all. So no, Anakin loses....

I really think that Anakin has a shot at this. Dooku has force powers, and even lightning! I dont really know why he didnt use it, but he beat dooku. And Dooku is almost equal to Sidious.

No he's not. Saber combat Dooku is, but force power, not even close.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
No he's not. Saber combat Dooku is, but force power, not even close.

I would go as far as to say that Dooku is a better sword fighter than Sidious. But you are right, Dooku was nowhere near the level of Sidious in terms of the force which is why he was the apprentice.

Also I would say that Sidious wins this battle. In terms of the force he is superior and in terms of saber skill they are probably about equal. I cant be bothered writing some big argument but read Escapes post - he has pretty much summed it up.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
I would go as far as to say that Dooku is a better sword fighter than Sidious. But you are right, Dooku was nowhere near the level of Sidious in terms of the force which is why he was the apprentice.

Also I would say that Sidious wins this battle. In terms of the force he is superior and in terms of saber skill they are probably about equal. I cant be bothered writing some big argument but read Escapes post - he has pretty much summed it up.

How does that make any sense? Dooku's a better sword duelist than Sidious, but Anakin is on par with Sidious in terms of saber combat? Anakin beat Dooku, amigo - with just a lightsaber.

May I remind you what happened to Dooku in an all out lightsaber duel against Anakin:

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/5808/dookurb2.jpg

And I'm sure you're going to be the one to argue with the seven pieces of evidence that support that Anakin > Dooku. But oh well.

Originally posted by Advent
How does that make any sense? Dooku's a better sword duelist than Sidious, but Anakin is on par with Sidious in terms of saber combat? Anakin beat Dooku, amigo - with just a lightsaber.

So many factors in that fight I dont know where to begin. Two on one, 80 year old vs two young men, the fact Dooku thought that Sids would help, the fact that Dooku wasnt there to kill Anakin but Anakin wanted Dookus head (literally), Dooku didnt use any force powers on Anakin like sith lightning when we know he was capable.



I dont want to turn this into another Dooku vs Anakin thread so im not going to argue the point. I just provided sufficient evidence on the matter, and also you cant determine the strength of two competitors on one duel. Otherwise it would be confirmed that Dooku is better than Mace, that Mace is better than Sidious, that Obi-Wan is better that Anakin etc

Originally posted by Rampant ox
So many factors in that fight I dont know where to begin.

So much bullshit fanboyism, I don't even want to begin.



He was defeated in one on one combat, you dolt. And don't play that "f4tigu3" bullshit:

"He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away. "

Seems Dooku was completely revitalized before he faced Anakin one on one.



HOLD ON HERE.

Dude, you really are a fanboy. You say he's "80 years old" when it comes to Anakin beating him, but when he's up against someone in the SWVF - you say "Oh, it doesn't matter".

You want proof you are a hypocrite?

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Dooku is 80+ but is said to have the strength of a 40 year old. He was easily able to take on the wonder duo in AOTC, and damn near bet them again in ROTS. He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away.. One of my favourite descriptions in the ROTS novel which shows how Dookus age was a no factor.

There you go, you hypocritical guy, you! Have fun with it.



Oh please. Yoda's 900 years old, he fought a man not even close to his age. Anyways, he was bested in one on one combat, when he was revitalized so this point is defeated. Adding to the fact if you just look above, you virtually pwned yourself.



Wrong again. He never thought Sidious would actually help him win the fight or anything. He thought that if he were to be bested, then Sidious would help. Now, it doesn't say that Dooku won't fight to the best of his ability, and it doesn't say he'll go easy. On the contrary actually, if you look below. Sidious only said that he'd manipulate it, so Dooku doesn't die, but Dooku had to fight as best as he could anyways.



He was there to give it his all against Anakin, LOE makes that clear.

"You will duel them," Sidious had said. "Kill Kenobi. His only purpose is to die and, in so doing, ignite young Skywalker to tap the depths of his fear and rage. Should you defeat Skywalker easily, then we will know that he is not prepared to serve us. Perhaps he never will be prepared. Should he by some fluke best you, however, I will control the outcome to spare you any unnecessary embarrassment, and we will have gained a powerful ally. But above all you must make the contest appear real, Lord Tyranus." "I will treat it as if it were my crowning achievement," Dooku had promised."

--Labryinth of Evil, Last Chapter.

Clearly Dooku was told to give it his all, and he himself promised he would "treat it as his crowning acheivement" in other words - "fight like he was dying".

And once Dooku realized that Anakin was about to kill him, and that Dooku couldn't contain him - he literally "fought for his life":

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/6108/foughtforlifecc1.jpg

From my copy of the NEC, scanned just for you. The ROTS novelization also backs up the fact that Anakin was stronger than Dooku:

"Dooku's decades of combat experience are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay is useless. His vast wealth, his political influence, impeccable breeding, immaculate manners, exquisite taste-the pursuits and points of pride to which he has devoted so much of his time and attention over the long, long years of his life-are now chains hung upon his spirit, bending his neck
before the ax. Even his knowledge of the Force has become a joke."

This is stated directly after it says that Anakin realizes he can use his "fear as a weapon", and it says this because "It is that simple, and that complex. And it is final. Dooku is dead already. The rest is mere detail." Meaning that once Anakin realizes this, everything else is trivial because Dooku cannot win now. And note that this is said far before Dooku is actually dead.

"And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step, Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread. "

The one holding himself back is Anakin, btw, just so you don't try to pull some bullshit.

"in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell.
In that pristine clarity, there is only one thing he must do.
Decide.
So he does.
He decides to win."

Anakin just decides to win, and he does. Oh, and Sidious himself admits that Anakin is stronger than Dooku, from the ROTS script/movie:

"DARTH SIDIOUS: His death was a necessary loss, which will ensure our victory. Soon I will have a new apprentice . . . one far younger and more powerful than Lord Tyranus."



Sorry, but that is bullshit. Anakin wasn't there to kill Dooku. He was there to capture him, that was made clear to the Jedi. Adding to the fact that if Anakin wanted Dooku dead, apparently all he has to is "decide":

"He decides that Dooku should lose the same hand he took. Decision is reality, here"

He decided to take Dooku's hand, not his life. And the ROTS novel elaborates that he wouldn't have killed Dooku had Palpatine not gave him "permission" (that's exactly how it's described) to do such.



We're not talking about Force powers, we're talking about saber abilities. Nice way to misdirect attention from the fact Anakin beat Dooku in saber combat, which is what we're debating about.



Well, too bad. I don't care if you don't want to or not. You make so much stuff up, and you're so much of a fanboy that you actually go as far as to contradict yourself when it's dealing with Dooku's win. For example, here you said "he's 80!!!" and acted as if he's weak because of that. In the Yoda & Mace vs. Sidious & Dooku, you claim "age is no factor".



Don't even act like you accomplished anything, Rampant. You just proved (well I just proved) you're a hypocrite. And your "evidence", which in reality was bullshit, was trumped by my evidence - which included actual quotes, logic, and even a scan from the NEC.



Yes, you can. We're talking about lightsaber abilities for ROTS Dooku and ROTS Anakin. Dooku and Anakin fought with lightsabers in ROTS. Now, since we're discussing lightsaber skills - we can use ROTS as our evidence. Why? Because we're talking about the ROTS versions of these guys. You can't save Dooku, sorry.



When Dooku beat Mace, he was better than him. We would say that. If we pit ROTS Dooku against ROTS Mace - it's completely different time, therefore because their duel happened in the past, we cannot use that as evidence. However, comparing ROTS Anakin to ROTS Dooku would stand because Anakin beat Dooku in ROTS.



In saber dueling I'm sure he is.



Anakin was under immense amounts of grief, and not thinking clearly. Plus the fact that Obi-Wan had to gain an advantage of terrain, and run around like a dog, whereas Anakin beat Dooku in a flat-out duel. No terrain advantages, both warriors thinking clearly, etc. It was plainly a fight. Just like a versus fight we'd have here.

Try again, Rampant. You fail as usual.

"And so it is..."

Wow. You posted all that to try and convince me of something pointless which is irrelevant to the debate at hand. You also posted it when you knew (because I specifically stated) that I wouldnt argue back because I couldnt care less. You must have alot of time on your hands.

I respect you and your debating skills and I would argue the point (again) on an appropriate thread. Im hoping someone doesnt create one though because it has been argued to the death so many times already that most of the people on these boards cringe when they see it.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Wow. You posted all that to try and convince me of something pointless which is irrelevant to the debate at hand.

No, I posted all that because:

1.) I'm bored.
2.) I love to debate, and even more love to prove people wrong.
3.) It helps me with my college courses (using evidence, debating, etc.)

And it's not pointless to this thread, I'm arguing a point that you made in the thread. So, in essence, it actually does have to do with this thread.



It's late, it's a weekday. What else is there to do? I'm already in for the night, so there's not much else to do besides research and pwn fanboys, m i rite?



You can't argue the point because I just buried any chance you have. If you did go on to argue it, you'd be a fanboy, and still get virtually pwned.



It's only been argued to death because fanboys like to think it was a fluke, and still argue like idiots - when people such as Escape, and I have already beaten down any arguments supporting Dooku.

Originally posted by Advent
No, I posted all that because:

1.) I'm bored.
2.) I love to debate, and even more love to prove people wrong.
3.) It helps me with my college courses (using evidence, debating, etc.)

And it's not pointless to this thread, I'm arguing a point that you made in the thread. So, in essence, it actually does have to do with this thread.

It's late, it's a weekday. What else is there to do? I'm already in for the night, so there's not much else to do besides research and pwn fanboys, m i rite?

Fair enough.



No. I used to be a fanboy. They argue against blatant facts with no evidence to back themselves up. I have a fair amount of evidence - enough to form a realistic argument on Dooku beating Anakin. I largely prefer Dooku yes, but I know when he will lose.



It was a fluke. And there were so many factors in that fight its would be nearly impossible to say A is better than B.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
No. I used to be a fanboy. They argue against blatant facts with no evidence to back themselves up. I have a fair amount of evidence - enough to form a realistic argument on Dooku beating Anakin. I largely prefer Dooku yes, but I know when he will lose.

You have nothing new, Rampant, I've seen what you posted a thousand times, and you've posted nothing that hasn't already been destroyed. And if you read my post, your so called "evidence" was virtually destroyed. You have no case. I also proved you're a hypocrite who parades around Dooku's age is "no factor", but when it comes down to Dooku getting beaten by Anakin, it suddenly amounts to something. QED. I pwned your argument, give it up.



There was not, now you're making more shit up. It was a straight out fight. Dooku said he'd fight to the best of his abilities, he even fought for his life. Anything else has already been dealt with, so seriously just stop before you bury yourself. You are arguing with about what? Ten or so solid peices of evidence that all add up to equate Anakin > Dooku. There was not "many factors". Anakin vs. Obi-Wan was many factors, Dooku vs. Anakin was not.

Originally posted by Advent
There was not, now you're making more shit up. It was a straight out fight.

What a load of sh*t. A straight up fight would be a neutral setting with just Anakin vs Dooku and they were both out to kill. But in ROTS we had two against one with Dooku not intending to kill Anakin. We also had Dooku not use any use of the force against Anakin when we know that he is capable of doing so. Oh, and then there is the fact that Dooku decided to taunt Anakin a large amount of the duel, enough to put him in a uncontrollable rage.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
What a load of sh*t.

Only from you. We know you're a fanboy. I just proved you were by being a hypocrite, so I doubt anyone really believes what you say.



The Invisible Hand chambers was a "neutral setting". How exactly was there anything wrong with it?

Both combatants had room, the ground was even, and there was no terrain to claim advantage. They fought on even ground, too. So more bullshit.



Dooku was out to fight his best, this is made clear as I already posted. So, try again. Anakin, at a point, was even holding himself back. And then Anakin went all out, and won. Try again.



Two on one? Oh, shut the f*ck up, Rampant. I already addressed this. Dooku completely revitalized himself before his one on one. Your point collapses, and you even conceded to this once before. Do you want me to dig up the quote to prove it?



Irrelevant. How does that matter? You should ask why Dooku doesn't use Force lightning every chance he gets. You should ask why Traya doesn't instakill every chance she can. You should ask why Sidious doesn't instakill everyone. You should ask why Exar Kun didn't use any Force powers against Ulic, and against Vodo.

Anyways, this is completely irrelevant, buddy. We're talking about saber dueling, they chose to saber duel, and Anakin won. Therefore Anakin > Dooku in lightsaber combat and ability.



Actually, that taunt made Skywalker lose his edge. ROTS novelization:

"but Skywalker had lost his edge: a simple taunt was all that had been required to shift the focus of his attention from winning the fight to controlling his own emotions."

Until Anakin realizes he can use his emotions as a weapon, in which point he wasn't "in a rage", because:

" in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell.
In that pristine clarity, there is only one thing he must do. "

QED, noob. Anakin in an "uncontrollable rage" is when he battles Obi-Wan. Thinking clear as crystal isn't being in a rage. Before that point, Anakin was holding back. And Dooku "fought for his life", and gave it his all. He lost - you lose. Good night.

Also, if you just would've read my post I addressed all of these points, and put you to shame. Sorry, Fanboy, my arguments beats the shit out of yours. And I thought you "could care less" and weren't going to respond? LOL. Hypocritical statement #2.

For good measure, don't post anything about the fight until you address this, because I know what you're doing. You're trying to avoid my mega pwnage, and act as if it doesn't exist. Well, guess what:

Originally posted by Advent
So much bullshit fanboyism, I don't even want to begin.



He was defeated in one on one combat, you dolt. And don't play that "f4tigu3" bullshit:

"He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away. "

Seems Dooku was completely revitalized before he faced Anakin one on one.



HOLD ON HERE.

Dude, you really are a fanboy. You say he's "80 years old" when it comes to Anakin beating him, but when he's up against someone in the SWVF - you say "Oh, it doesn't matter".

You want proof you are a hypocrite?



There you go, you hypocritical guy, you! Have fun with it.



Oh please. Yoda's 900 years old, he fought a man not even close to his age. Anyways, he was bested in one on one combat, when he was revitalized so this point is defeated. Adding to the fact if you just look above, you virtually pwned yourself.



Wrong again. He never thought Sidious would actually help him win the fight or anything. He thought that if he were to be bested, then Sidious would help. Now, it doesn't say that Dooku won't fight to the best of his ability, and it doesn't say he'll go easy. On the contrary actually, if you look below. Sidious only said that he'd manipulate it, so Dooku doesn't die, but Dooku had to fight as best as he could anyways.



He was there to give it his all against Anakin, LOE makes that clear.

"You will duel them," Sidious had said. "Kill Kenobi. His only purpose is to die and, in so doing, ignite young Skywalker to tap the depths of his fear and rage. Should you defeat Skywalker easily, then we will know that he is not prepared to serve us. Perhaps he never will be prepared. Should he by some fluke best you, however, I will control the outcome to spare you any unnecessary embarrassment, and we will have gained a powerful ally. But above all you must make the contest appear real, Lord Tyranus." "I will treat it as if it were my crowning achievement," Dooku had promised."

--Labryinth of Evil, Last Chapter.

Clearly Dooku was told to give it his all, and he himself promised he would "treat it as his crowning acheivement" in other words - "fight like he was dying".

And once Dooku realized that Anakin was about to kill him, and that Dooku couldn't contain him - he literally "fought for his life":

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/6108/foughtforlifecc1.jpg

From my copy of the NEC, scanned just for you. The ROTS novelization also backs up the fact that Anakin was stronger than Dooku:

"Dooku's decades of combat experience are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay is useless. His vast wealth, his political influence, impeccable breeding, immaculate manners, exquisite taste-the pursuits and points of pride to which he has devoted so much of his time and attention over the long, long years of his life-are now chains hung upon his spirit, bending his neck
before the ax. Even his knowledge of the Force has become a joke."

This is stated directly after it says that Anakin realizes he can use his "fear as a weapon", and it says this because "It is that simple, and that complex. And it is final. Dooku is dead already. The rest is mere detail." Meaning that once Anakin realizes this, everything else is trivial because Dooku cannot win now. And note that this is said far before Dooku is actually dead.

"And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step, Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread. "

The one holding himself back is Anakin, btw, just so you don't try to pull some bullshit.

"in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell.
In that pristine clarity, there is only one thing he must do.
Decide.
So he does.
He decides to win."

Anakin just decides to win, and he does. Oh, and Sidious himself admits that Anakin is stronger than Dooku, from the ROTS script/movie:

"DARTH SIDIOUS: His death was a necessary loss, which will ensure our victory. Soon I will have a new apprentice . . . one far younger and more powerful than Lord Tyranus."



Sorry, but that is bullshit. Anakin wasn't there to kill Dooku. He was there to capture him, that was made clear to the Jedi. Adding to the fact that if Anakin wanted Dooku dead, apparently all he has to is "decide":

"He decides that Dooku should lose the same hand he took. Decision is reality, here"

He decided to take Dooku's hand, not his life. And the ROTS novel elaborates that he wouldn't have killed Dooku had Palpatine not gave him "permission" (that's exactly how it's described) to do such.



We're not talking about Force powers, we're talking about saber abilities. Nice way to misdirect attention from the fact Anakin beat Dooku in saber combat, which is what we're debating about.



Well, too bad. I don't care if you don't want to or not. You make so much stuff up, and you're so much of a fanboy that you actually go as far as to contradict yourself when it's dealing with Dooku's win. For example, here you said "he's 80!!!" and acted as if he's weak because of that. In the Yoda & Mace vs. Sidious & Dooku, you claim "age is no factor".



Don't even act like you accomplished anything, Rampant. You just proved (well I just proved) you're a hypocrite. And your "evidence", which in reality was bullshit, was trumped by my evidence - which included actual quotes, logic, and even a scan from the NEC.



Yes, you can. We're talking about lightsaber abilities for ROTS Dooku and ROTS Anakin. Dooku and Anakin fought with lightsabers in ROTS. Now, since we're discussing lightsaber skills - we can use ROTS as our evidence. Why? Because we're talking about the ROTS versions of these guys. You can't save Dooku, sorry.



When Dooku beat Mace, he was better than him. We would say that. If we pit ROTS Dooku against ROTS Mace - it's completely different time, therefore because their duel happened in the past, we cannot use that as evidence. However, comparing ROTS Anakin to ROTS Dooku would stand because Anakin beat Dooku in ROTS.



In saber dueling I'm sure he is.



Anakin was under immense amounts of grief, and not thinking clearly. Plus the fact that Obi-Wan had to gain an advantage of terrain, and run around like a dog, whereas Anakin beat Dooku in a flat-out duel. No terrain advantages, both warriors thinking clearly, etc. It was plainly a fight. Just like a versus fight we'd have here.

Try again, Rampant. You fail as usual.

"And so it is..."

It does.

Do you really want me to go through that post and argue it? I will if you insist, but it really is irrelevant to the point at hand and that is Anakin vs Sidious.

Whatever, Rampant. Go ahead, go through that post if you please. It doesn't bother me. We can either save it for another thread that I will make in the near future to put an end to this bullshit, or we can settle it here. It's really your choice. I'm not going to force you to respond to anything.

Oh, and here's even more proof you're a hypocrite. You said this:

Originally posted by Rampant ox
A straight up fight would be a neutral setting

Saying that the Invisible Hand isn't a "neutral setting" (which is bullshit, but anyways), but here in this thread, you claim it's actually an advantage for Dooku:

Originally posted by Rampant ox
But, the setting is on the Invisible Hand. This is a ship that Dooku has great knowledge of. He could use this to his advantage like GG did (obviously not in exactly the same way but you get my point) thus giving the sith a very slight advantage.
Originally posted by Rampant ox
Dooku will have the edge because it is his ship, thus knowing more about it than any of the other combatants.

So, how exactly does the Invisible Hand equate to not nuetral? As I said, there's no terrain to gain an advantage, plenty of room (not that Dooku needs it), and they fought on even ground the whole one on one duel. Anyways, the point of this post was just to say that you contradict yourself at every turn, and even claim something is an advantage for Dooku in one fight, but it's not in another.

Hypocritical statement #3. You're racking 'em up. But really, it's your choice, my friend. Now or later?

What are you talking about now? I said that the Invisible Hand was not a neutral setting now and I said it also in a previos thread. How is that being hypocritical?

Originally posted by Rampant ox
What are you talking about now? I said that the Invisible Hand was not a neutral setting now and I said it also in a previos thread. How is that being hypocritical?

Explain to me how it's not "neutral" setting? How does it put Dooku at a disadvantage? It doesn't. If anything, like you said, it's a slighy advantage for Dooku, which gives even more reason to support Anakin > Dooku.

If Anakin beat Dooku, while Dooku had an ever-so slight advantage, how is that anything to consider for Anakin versus Dooku in an open field? And one could easily argue it holds no real water, given Dooku didn't use the terrain to his advantage, and no mention was ever given. They were simply fighting. It'd be no more of an advantage than Darth Maul would get fighting against...say Mace Windu in a desert plain on Tatooine. Which is basically none.

When you said "fight in a neutral setting" - you made it seem like it was a factor that lead to Dooku's loss, which is what you were arguing about. They did fight in a basically neutral setting. It was hardly an advantage for either, but if it was it'd go to Dooku. That is, though, if it was.

And yes, I know what "neutral" means, but like I said - you made it seem like it lead to Dooku's loss.

Geez, you two are quite at it. Anyway, without risking advent's anger, I am going to quickly say Sidious and run for another thread.

EDIT due to annoying factor

i'm going to back anakin on this, reason being he's the chosen one, the prophecy says he can't die, so thats cheating i know but screw it :P

EDIT due to annoying factor

Please don't type in caps, it's an eyesore.

Ok. This is what I think would happen. Anakin would've lost it and went berserk on Palpatine like a cow in a piranha tank, lost his focus and would've gotten fried by Sideous' force lightning.

Random pics, ramdom pics.....

Sidious beats Anakin with Force and with Force + Saber.

If it's a saber duel, I would say Sidious has a much harder time, but I think he'll pull it off.

Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
Sidious beats Anakin with Force and with Force + Saber.

If it's a saber duel, I would say Sidious has a much harder time, but I think he'll pull it off.

I pretty much agree with this.

Force battle = Anakin WTFpwned
Force + saber battle = Anakin Pwned
Saber duel = Anakin and Sidious pretty well matched, even with Anakin possibly winning. But Sidious winning more times then not.

Advent, I think you might also post an excerpt from ROTS novel about how Yoda knows he's inferior to Sidious when it comes to dueling. Also, considering that Sidious is a mastermind, he purposely "lost" to Mace Windu because he felt Anakin's presence. I think we don't give Sidious enough credit for all the gambles he took, which all paid off in the end (i.e. the "loss" to Windu, revealing his identity to Anakin and turning his back to him, etc.). The fact of the matter is that Palpatine is a trickster figure and a mastermind. Keep in mind that "insidious" means treacherous, deceitful, beguiling... With that in mind, we know that everything is a set up: Dooku v. Anakin, Luke v. Vader, etc.

In the end, Sidious knew that Vader would be twice as powerful, and that's why he had to neutralize him from the jump. For that reason, I think he knew that Kenobi would fight him at Mustafar and defeat him. I think we should specify which "Vader" / Anakin we have going against Sidious... thanks!

(I'm a newb.. I know... lol my first post on this forum...)

Originally posted by Nupe Kill Droma
Still, the original post was about Maul v. Vader, a fight which I think Vader would win and say, afterwards, "All too easy."

?

lol damn, i didn't even have time to edit before you got me! lmao I was looking at two forums! lmao good catch on that one!

Lol

At the beginning I put "Chancellor Palpatine reveals himself as Darth Sidious to Anakin, and instead of going to Mace Windu, he strikes at Palpatine, and they engage in a duel..."

So this is Anakin before the Mustafar duel.

ahhh! that you did! good stuff, but I think I'm going to take Sidious... I'd probably take pre-suit Vader if the scenario were different... but, yeah, I'll go with Sidious... but not by much, especially if we're just talking sabres.

Anything goes, but considering the emptiness of the hall in which Sidious reveals himself, there would be nothing more than simple force pushes.

how bout this? Had Anakin attacked Palps, Papls might have used it as an opportunity to test Anakin himself, being that he is better than Dooku, and maybe, just maybe might underestimate Anakin himself, which Anakin could capitalize on. We dont know if Palps would have used the force in the duel. He could prefer lightsabers until he deemed force powers necessary. If so, Anakin could win, although not easily, otherwise, at THAT point in the movie, Sidious takes him, but not easily either.

Also as far as the Dooku/Anakin thing, this just kinda came to me. Dooku did have an advantage...it was more or less his ship which he knew the layout of (as stated), he KNEW he was going to fight the Jedi and had time to prepare, whereas Anakin didnt know he was going to be fighting Dooku. Also, if you want to take Dooku's word itself...he apparently reveres lighsaber skill as more pertinent than knowledge of the force, kinda like a tie breaker.

"It's obvious this contest can not be settled with our knowledge of the force, but with our skills with a lightsaber."

Or something close to that. Im sure if I messed up even one word, Rampant will be quick to correct me, but to me that means he holds lightsaber combat "in such high esteem".

Anyway, just wanted to add that to further PROVE that Anakin>Dooku...

Sidious. Dooku would have won agaisn't anakin if he hadn't been angry. Sidious is above dooku and also isn't weak to strength attacks and is much faster than anakin and greater in the force by this time. So yes I'd say Sidious.

Originally posted by Gideon
Anakin is among the best-of-the-best in terms of lightsaber ability. In that alone, he can compete and possibly defeat Sidious. However, in an all out fight, Anakin would lose, due to Sidious's superior Force powers.

Agreed.

It's too soon for Anakin to fight Sidious.

Originally posted by McP
It's too soon for Anakin to fight Sidious.
It's always too soon.

Mortis!Anakin, tho.

Yeah. Unless this fight takes place on Mortis, Sidious can take his erstwhile apprentice. Even if Anakin goes Invisible Hand on him, Sidious still has it.

Originally posted by Gideon
Anakin is among the best-of-the-best in terms of lightsaber ability. In that alone, he can compete and possibly defeat Sidious. However, in an all out fight, Anakin would lose, due to Sidious's superior Force powers.

LMAO

Gideon continues to astound

He has actually underrated Sidious' dueling skills in several occasions.