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In the Throne Room of the Invisible Hand...

My take on it would be that Yoda and Palpatine engage in a duel that lasts for a considerable amount of time, with both opponents stalemating one another. Mace and Dooku engage in a battle, which ultimately ends in Mace's victory. Then he hops over and helps Yoda pwn Palpatine.

Hasnt this been done before. Im sure it has because I made a few enemies thanks to my blatant fanboyism of Count Dooku. Ill try not to argue biased this time.

I think that the sith lords would win, however it would be an extremely long battle and an extremely difficult one. Mace and Dooku are completely on par and so are Sidious and Yoda. So this really doesnt give either team any advantage at all. But, the setting is on the Invisible Hand. This is a ship that Dooku has great knowledge of. He could use this to his advantage like GG did (obviously not in exactly the same way but you get my point) thus giving the sith a very slight advantage.

In terms of lightsaber ability I would say that Dooku is ever so slightly ahead of Mace. He has mastered, perfected and modified Makashi - the lightsaber form that ws bred for duelling. He has also had far more experience with a saber thanks to his age. I would also like to add that Dooku has beaten Mace before - but that was many years ago and we dont know how much either has progressed.
Mace however is very powerful in his own right. He has created and mastered Vapaad - arguably the most difficult form to learn and has not crossed to the dark side because of it. He holds a seat on the jedi council and is regarded as the second best duellist in the order (although we dont know if this includes Dooku or not). He is also very fit and physically strong. But I dont think that this will work to his advantage very much. Dooku is 80+ but is said to have the strength of a 40 year old. He was easily able to take on the wonder duo in AOTC, and damn near bet them again in ROTS. He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away.. One of my favourite descriptions in the ROTS novel which shows how Dookus age was a no factor. So with this info in hand I would say that Dooku has the advantage, however slight, in duelling alone.

Force powers is difficult to determine. What we know is that Dooku has knowledge of both the light and dark side of the force - and has been taught by arguably the best users of the two sides of force up to that time. We have seen him effortlessly destroy rooves and shoot force lightning which he can also block with his hands. He can easily throw around generators, balconies, Obi-Wan Kenobi and GG. He was also able to go toe to toe with Yoda and survive - twice
Mace has shown pretty impressive feats as well, like crippling GG with a massive force crush and moving objects that weigh hundreds of tonnes. He is also able to channel his anger into his form without turning to the darkside. He too has been trained by Yoda, but for not as long as Dooku. With this in mind I would again give the slight advantage to the Count.

Sids and Yoda are completely even so they will rely on their respective apprentice to tip the scales imo. This means tha after a very long struggle the Count will defeat Mace and together they will eventually overpower Yoda. Then the Count will sit down and have a martinni like I am about to do now

Originally posted by Rampant ox
But, the setting is on the Invisible Hand. This is a ship that Dooku has great knowledge of. He could use this to his advantage like GG did (obviously not in exactly the same way but you get my point) thus giving the sith a very slight advantage.

It didn't give him an advantage against Anakin, so I fail to see how it will "give him in a edge" in this fight. If you're referring to Grievous on Utapau, that's completely different circumstances. The throne room of the Invisible Hand is a shut arena, with no where to run or do anything fancy.



Damn near beat them? He beat Obi-Wan, and got his ass handed to him by Anakin.



Yes, because he distracted Yoda, and ran away. I could say the same thing, except Mace was able to go one on one with Sidious, and beat him.



There's also the fact Mace Windu has his Shatterpoint ability, which turned a stalemate of lightsaber dueling against Sidious, into a victory.



And then Mace Windu and Yoda will sit down, and have some disgusting and vile dry gin, like I'm about to do now.

Originally posted by Advent
It didn't give him an advantage against Anakin, so I fail to see how it will "give him in a edge" in this fight. If you're referring to Grievous on Utapau, that's completely different circumstances. The throne room of the Invisible Hand is a shut arena, with no where to run or do anything fancy.

No I was referring to GG destroying the glass on the invisible hand and launching the escape pods. Dooku will have the edge because it is his ship, thus knowing more about it than any of the other combatants. However it is only a very very slight advantage and certainly not enough to sway the outcome of the fight.



He pwned Obi-Wan. I highly disagree that the Count got pwned by Anakin though. They were still meeting each other blow for blow and Anakin only won by physically overpowering an older man. However that is a completely different battle and irrelevant to this discussion.



Im not arguing that Dooku would have lost. And yes he did run away - or as I like to put it strategically retreating . My point is that Dooku had the skill to duel Yoda and not be killed on more than one occasion.



Absolutely true. Sorry I forgot to mention it.



Personally I think gin tastes like sh*t but hey, thats just me...

Originally posted by Rampant ox
No I was referring to GG destroying the glass on the invisible hand and launching the escape pods. Dooku will have the edge because it is his ship, thus knowing more about it than any of the other combatants. However it is only a very very slight advantage and certainly not enough to sway the outcome of the fight.

How is an advantage at all? Would Darth Maul have an advantage over Count Dooku if the two fought in a desert plain on Tatooine? No. It's a meaningless advantage really, but whatever Dooku now has a .019% advantage because of this.



You'll probably be overjoyed to know that the Revenge of the Sith novel disagrees with you:

His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head.

Skywalker was all over him.
The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half

And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step

The only time Dooku is even able to match Skywalker is when he taunts him. And even then, after Anakin realizes he can use his fear and anger as a weapon, Dooku does not have a chance in the world:

starburst of clarity blossoms within Anakin Skywalker's mind, when he says to himself Oh. I get it, now and discovers that the fear within his heart can be a weapon, too.
It is that simple, and that complex.
And it is final.
Dooku is dead already. The rest is mere detail.

This was before Anakin cut off Dooku's head, as it says - Dooku was already dead, even though the match had not even ended.



Rampant, contradicting yourself much? Didn't you just post this:

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Dooku is 80+ but is said to have the strength of a 40 year old. He was easily able to take on the wonder duo in AOTC, and damn near bet them again in ROTS. He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away.. One of my favourite descriptions in the ROTS novel which shows how Dookus age was a no factor.



Okay...? And my point is: who cares? Mace had the skill to duel Sidious, and actually best him in lightsaber combat.



No, it's not just you, lol. I hate the taste, and I feel like puking everytime I take a shot, or even a sip, lol. I just don't have anything else in my apartment, and I'm about to watch a movie that I hear is better to be watching it while drunk.

Originally posted by Advent
It's a meaningless advantage really, but whatever Dooku now has a .019% advantage because of this.

Hahaha thats still an advantage is it not.




Fair enough. Im not going to argue it because it is irrelevant to this conversation. But well done for digging up the information. Kudos to you...




Whoa!! Check and mate. Well done, you win that round



Fair enough. But I also recall Mace being thrown out the window with one less arm. But hey, Dooku can duel with yoda and not be killed. Only 1 other people would have a chance at this - Sidious.

Mace being thrown out the window with one less arm? Ah yes, the part where Anakin caught him by surprise, and and Sidious shot him with force lightning. Damn that Mace guy must really suck huh?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Mace being thrown out the window with one less arm? Ah yes, the part where Anakin caught him by surprise, and and Sidious shot him with force lightning. Damn that Mace guy must really suck huh?

The way I see it is that he has an unarmed prisoner on the ground. Mace was also under the impression that Sids was eshausted - meaning he was absolutely no threat. However to his right he had the powerful Anakin, emotions brimming and talking about sparing Palps life. Mace knew about their close friendship with each other yet still didnt suspect anything. He went to attack the unarmed prisoner instead of dealing with Anakin. A very foolish decision on Mace's part if I do say so myself...

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Hahaha thats still an advantage is it not.

I suppose, lol.



I believe my colleague, Darth Sexy, already addressed this ridiculous point quite nicely actually, ol' chap.

Plus, there's also the fact that it was asked "Why Mace went in there with the 'B Team'?" or something, to which the reply was "You have to be either Yoda or Mace to compete with Sidious". Ask Escape for the exact quote, but that's basically the gist of it.

Originally posted by Advent I suppose, lol.






I adressed the point just before...



Hey, you learn something new every day. Thanks for the info, I must now go and ponder it and restructure my argument lol...

Originally posted by Rampant ox
The way I see it is that he has an unarmed prisoner on the ground. Mace was also under the impression that Sids was eshausted - meaning he was absolutely no threat. However to his right he had the powerful Anakin, emotions brimming and talking about sparing Palps life. Mace knew about their close friendship with each other yet still didnt suspect anything.

Why would he suspect Anakin to attack and cut off his hand? Anakin was a fellow Jedi, mind you. And Windu really doesn't care for Anakin's thoughts much anyways.



What? That "unarmed prisoner" was blasting Mace with Force lightning. He wasn't like a precious baby kitten now, he was very dangerous; plus, Mace had (as in necessity) to kill Sidious. And what do you mean "deal with Anakin"? I already explained he could care less, and didn't think he'd betray his vows, and really - what was Mace going to do? Tell Anakin to get to bed? Maybe if Anakin would've drawn his saber out and said "You must fight me first", and instead tried to kill Sidious - then yes, it'd be foolish, if I do say so myself.

I guess Sidious is a fool, too? I mean, he'd rather kill an unarmed prisoner (Luke) than deal with Vader (because Luke was practically screaming "I can feel the conflict within you" throughout the entire fight).

Nope, doesn't work like that. Especially for Windu's case.

Originally posted by Advent
Why would he suspect Anakin to attack and cut off his hand? Anakin was a fellow Jedi, mind you. And Windu really doesn't care for Anakin's thoughts much anyways.

Because Anakin had been gaining a unique friendship with Palpatine. One that Mace didnt like at all and one that Mace was very wary of. I think at the point where Anakin said "I need him" Mace should have suspected something...




Not at that point. Palpatine had supposedly and very convincingly used up all of his energy reserves. He was backed into the corner and appeared completely helpless.



I agree. but im not sating that Mace shouldnt have killed Sids - merely spent more attention on the clearly turmoiled Anakin.



Lol, that would have been awesome.



Well Anakin was clearly on the brink of igniting his saber, especially when he yelled "I need him". At that point a person of Maces wisdom should have knownbetter.



Hmmm. True, but it is a different scenario and different circumstances. Also the Emperor at that point was extremely cocky - just like all sith lords.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Because Anakin had been gaining a unique friendship with Palpatine. One that Mace didnt like at all and one that Mace was very wary of. I think at the point where Anakin said "I need him" Mace should have suspected something...

You're still misunderstanding. Mace had no reason to actually think that Anakin would cut off his hand out of nowhere. Seriously, Anakin was a Jedi, and he expected it to be nothing more than when he was whining about not getting the rank of Jedi Master.



And...? "He's too dangerous to be left alive!". Seems Mace Windu disagrees, it was necessity to kill Sidious; it was not necessity to deal with Anakin's whining.



Why? He was dealing with a very dangerous man. I mean really, why pay attention to a whiny Jedi's ramblings instead of deal with a Sith friggin' Lord right in front of you that just killed three of your fellow Council members? It's completely irrational to just stop in the middle of dealing with Sidious, and focus on Anakin.



Uh, no. He pulled out his lightsaber only when Mace cocked back his arm ready to slash Sidious back to the depths of Hell. How was he expecting it? Who in their right mind would expect it? I guess he should've listened to Anakin because he said "I need him"? He said "I need the rank of Master", too, should Mace have listened to him then? Would Anakin slice Mace's hand off then?



Actually, it is completely the same. The only difference it was Jedi and Jedi instead of Sith and Sith.

Here's why they are similar:

1.) You say Mace should've listened when he said "I need him", well then Sidious should've listened to a measly Luke Skywalker when he said "I can feel the conflict within you", "your thoughts betray you, father".
2.) Both were betrayed by people who had been completely loyal, and had vowed their allegiance to the respective Orders.
3.) They both had no reason to suspect either one, just because two morons said something, doesn't mean jack when he's been loyal, and vowed his life (especially for Windu, since Anakin only said "I need him".
4.) Both wanted to kill their unarmed opponent, because they were the actual necessity to deal with. I.e. Palpatine being a Sith Lord, who just killed three other Jedi, and Luke being a Jedi, who just pwned his apprentice.

The situations are pretty similar, actually.

Again Rampart Ox, what reason would Windu have to suspect Anakin's eventual betrayal?

The argument is pointless. But ill continue it because im bored lol.

Mace had an unarmed prisoner. He has apparently lost all his energy reserve, been disarmed and was backed into a corner. He had also been blasted by a large amount of his own force lightning. Now yes, Mace was right to consider him a very high risk person. But Anakin was also their - the same Anakin who had become very close to the Chancellor, the same Anakin who was strong enough to beat the Count, the same Anakin wh had been specifically told to stay behind and the same Anakin who was yelling things like "You cant kill him" and "I need him". At that point it should be fairly obvious who the bigger threat was. Yet Mace still raised his lightsaber (in a foolishly dramatic way) while Anakin was yelling "NO" and went to deliver the killing blow on Sids - the unarmed and weak (supposedly) prisoner. Now this imo is a very foolish thing to do. Dont talk about how Anakin moans all the time and how he was a jedi so he wouldnt do something like that. Mace was probably the most wary of wary jedi of Anakin out of everyone, and was opposed to Anakin from day one. He of all people should have known what Anakin was thinking and/or about to do...

There, I balanced out the poll.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Mace had an unarmed prisoner.

Oh? The same unarmed prisoner who was using Force lightning moments before?



What the hell does that have to do with anything? You'll have to explain how it is even rational for Mace to consider what Anakin was talking about instead of dealing with a Sith friggin' Lord. Though, you'll have a hard time explaining it, since it is completely irrational.



So what? So, he should deal with Anakin, a fellow Jedi, who pledged his life to the Jedi Order, and was a simpleton in his mind, instead of dealing with the Sith friggin' Lord right in front of him, who just blasted him with lightning moments ago?

That's what you seem to be missing, Anakin is a Jedi, Palpatine was a Sith Lord. You need to realize that it is completely, and 100% irrational to consider a fellow Jedi, who has been loyal over your natural enemy, who blasted you with lightning moments ago, and killed three of your fellow Councilmen.

How rational would it be if I were actually American (lol) and was fighting in the Iraq War (or whatever it is called) and was about to execute an Iraqi prisoner, who was just shooting at me, and consider a fellow soldier saying "But we need him", despite him just killing three compadres, and shooting me?

It really wouldn't be at all.



So? Why would Mace think that Anakin would betray the Jedi Order just because he's buddy-buddy with Palpatine? You know, Anakin did vow his allegiance to the Jedi, right?



What does that have to do with anything? Should he be viewed as a "threat" then, despite being a Jedi? I guess TPM Kenobi is a threat to the Jedi Order as well, since he killed Maul.



To which he was saying it in the heat of the moment.

"I need him alive!" Skywalker shouted. "I need him to save Padme!"
Mace thought blankly, Why? And moved his lightsaber toward the fallen Chancellor.

Keyword: Blankly.

Mace doesn't even know WTF Anakin is talking about as you can see. I don't know who actually would aside from Sidious and Anakin himself. Why would Mace stop killing a natural and dangerous enemy to deal with some punk, who is yelling things Mace has no damn clue about?




Yeah, it was Sidious. Sith Lord or Jedi? Why the f*ck would he even view Anakin as a "threat"?

He. Was. A. Jedi. Palpatine. Was. A. Sith. Friggin. Lord



Wrong. Anakin yelled "NO!" when Mace was about to kill Sidious, when he already had his arm cocked back. Not Mace raising his sword, while Anakin was in the middle of screaming.



Actually, I will, since it is completely relevant. And again, is Sidious a fool because he didn't see his loyal apprentice for the past twenty years about to betray him, despite Luke saying "I can feel the conflict", "your thoughts betray you, father", etc.?



Considering he would have no reason to actually think Anakin would do that, and considering there was a Sith Lord in his face, and considering he had no damn clue what Anakin was even talking about - you're wrong.

Well, I guess it is a matter of opinion on what Mace should have done. But anyway it is irrelevant. Can we please get back on topic...

Overnight this has gone from a "vs." thread to a "What Should Mace Windu Have Done, Kill Sidious or Fight Anakin First" thread Woohoo! clap

Actually, I'd dispute the idea that Yoda somehow bested Dooku in that duel. Yoda spends most of the time performing elaborate spins and aimless jumping and accomplishes . . . what?

Originally posted by Swirly Girl
Actually, I'd dispute the idea that Yoda somehow bested Dooku in that duel. Yoda spends most of the time performing elaborate spins and aimless jumping and accomplishes . . . what?

I actually agree, but the script seems to say otherwise.

I disagree, Rampant.

Count Dooku is a powerful Force user and an exceptional duelist, and would give Mace one hell of a fight, and, if the conditions were favorable, defeat him.

However, given Mace's use of Vaapad, which has shown to be, perhaps, the best lightsaber form to use against Dark Siders, plus his nifty Shatterpoint ability, I am of a mind to believe that Mace would eventually overcome him.

Similarly, Yoda and Sidious are virtual equals. Sidious opts for self preservation rather than to go headlong into a fight (unless he's prepared for it). I could honestly see the fight go either way, considering that he fought smarter than Yoda did in RotS, and used the terrain to his advantage when he could.

However, Yoda is a hair or two superior to Sidious in sheer lightsaber combat, which also gives him an advantage.

As for the entire fight:

a. Mace overcomes Dooku after a lengthly duel, and assists Yoda in killing Sidious, if he is not already dead.

b. Dooku overcomes Mace after a lengthly duel, and assists Sidious in killing Yoda, if he is not already dead.

c. Mace overcomes Dooku after a lengthly duel, and engages Sidious in combat (if he killed Yoda), which I see Sidious taking an all out fight, given his superior Force powers and battle tactics.

d. Dooku overcomes Mace and engages Yoda in combat (if he killed Sidious) and dies against his former master.

Either way, I see the Dooku vs. Mace match finishing before Yoda vs. Sidious, in which case I see Mace winning. Then he rushes over and pwns Sidious with Yoda's help.

Oh, and the quote is:

"One has to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor."

And so it begins...



I agree 100% And the same thing with Mace. If the conditions were favorable he would probably take out the Count. But the point is the conditions are not favorable - we are aboard the Counts vessel which gives him the advantage, however slight. Probably not enough to win the fight though. But then again the throne room is not that big (if what im thinking of is the throne room lol) so Mace wouldnt be able to properly utilise Vappad, especially with Mace and Yoda duelling there as well, both of whom use a large amount of space with there forms.



Vapaad is great all round, Makashi is perfect at duelling. I personally think that in terms of their respective forms Dooku has the slight advantage. He has mastered Makashi to the highest degree. And we all know that Makashi was made for duelling. And yes, shatterpoint is extremely effective. Easily enough to give Mace a slight advantage. But the care word being slight. Not enough to win him the fight straight up.



I agree. I would say thatthey are both so even that they are going to rely on their respective ally to win them the fight.



Yes, but Sids is a hair or two above Yoda in terms of the force. This evens it out. Again, I think that they are too close in terms of power to determine a straight out winner.

Sorry im not going to debate each individual point because they are just some of thopusands of possible outcomes. I will say this.
Dooku has:
-80+ years of training in both the light and dark side of the force
-80+ years perfecting Makashi, the lightsaber form
-trained under both Sids and Yoda, arguably the two best force users of the era
-proven he has beaten Mace before (although this is a long time ago and difficult to use as evidence)
-Was able to duel with Yoda and meat him blow for blow twice
-Wtf pwned AOTC Obi-Wan and Anakin
-Wtf pwned ROTS Obi-Wan
-Can block force lightning with his hands
-trained an array of extremely powerful dark acolytes
Wtf pwned GG

The list goes on. But the point is that Dooku has more accomplishments and shown us greater feats than Mace. The duel will be far from close, but eventually the Count will win. He will the help Sids defeat Yoda.



Hahaha thanks.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
And so it begins...

And so the bullshit continues...



Rampant, it's really not an advantage at all. I said .019%, and that was the wrong figure. It doesn't even give him enough to have as much of an advantage as this line I'm about to draw below:

-

Out of 1,000,000 miles - that little dash is even more of an advantage it gives Dooku. Stop treating it like the Count actually will win just because of this (and don't say you aren't, "the conditions are favorable"? Lawls, no).



There is no "probably", it's a definite.



Let's see here, he dueled Sidious in a far more contained area than the throne room, and he actually beat Sidious in that area, so what are you talking about, hm?



Doesn't Sidious use Ataru as well? And when was it ever said Vaapad requires a lot of space? Making more things up, Rampant?



First off, where do you get "great all round"? Source please, and quote. Secondly, read this:

From the Insider 62 article: "Form VII employs bold, direct movements, more open and kinetic than Form V" - that's on Vaapad.

From the Revenge of the Sith novelization: "His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head." - that's when Anakin and Dooku dueled.

So, seeing as Dooku's Makashi couldn't meet Djem So, and Vaapad uses even more kinetic energy, I'm inclined to say that will work for Mace Windu.



Lawlipops. First of all, it gives Windu a vastly superior advantage compared to Dooku's "knowing the terrain" crap.

And, really - "slight"? Let's see here, if I'm not mistaken Mace Windu's Shatterpoint ability allowed him to overcome Sidious:

"Which might have gone on forever, if Vaapad were Mace's only gift."

That'd be a one Darth Sidious, who is Dooku's superior. So you say slight? Ha. No.



Completely irrelevant. Dooku beat Anakin in AOTC, but what happened in ROTS? He got his head lopped off.



No, he didn't meet him "blow for blow", that may be your perspective, but the AOTC script and novelization disagrees with you:

COUNT DOOKU charges across the space at YODA. He rains down blows upon the tiny figure. YODA doesn't budge an inch. For the first part of the contest, he parries every cut and thrust that Dooku aims. Nothing the great swordsman tries gets through. His energy drains. His strokes become feebler, slower.

parrying each blow and offering cunning counters that had Dooku skipping backward desperately.

Dooku's flurry began to slow, and the Count, recognizing the Futility of this attempt to overwhelm, stepped back fast.

Sure, he had his good points, but ultimately Yoda was going to win. And I could counter this with the good ol', Mace went "blow for blow" with Sidious, who is Dooku's superior, and beat him. So what is your point?



Who gives? They are weaklings.



And you left out: 'got pwned by ROTS Anakin in a straight up lightsaber fight.'



Yeah, and so did Mace. Your point?



Yes, they were just irrelevant Feat Wars. Put them into context, what does Dooku pwning Grievous have to do with Mace Windu? Mace Windu did the same thing. What does training Dark Acolytes have to do with this fight/how will it stop Windu?



You mean the duel will be far from a landslide? And, don't say "eventually the Count will win" as if it were fact, because I'd say Mace Windu would beat him.

Proving points that MAce will win? I think Sama and Escape already did that. The fact that Mace is a master of Vaapad, and has his cute little shatterpoint ability, means that only the likes of Yoda would most likely best him.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Proving points that MAce will win? I think Sama and Escape already did that. The fact that Mace is a master of Vaapad, and has his cute little shatterpoint ability, means that only the likes of Yoda would most likely best him.

Wtf. Mace knows Vaapad. Whoopdi doo. Dooku knows Makashi. Mace has shatterpoint. Whoopdi doo, Dooku has extensive knowledge in both sides of the force. And no, if i recall Mace lost to Sidious and I also recall Starwars.com saying that Dooku has beaten Mace before.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
From your side, yes.

No, you seriously do spew a lot of bullshit. I called you on a lot earlier, and you admitted defeat.



No, you say this "But the point is the conditions are not favorable - we are aboard the Counts vessel which gives him the advantage, however slight. " You said that is a favorable condition, along with the fact he uses Makashi. That implies you seem to think it will help, if it's a considerably stupid point, why mention it?



You don't understand, you imply that it's enough, you stated that single point along with one other, Makashi. You act as if it really is a great advantage. But whatever, I could care less.



Yet surprisingly, he fought in a smaller area, and won. Vaapad wasn't effective when dueling against Sidious? Oh, is that why he beat Sidious in a tighter area? Yeah, keep making stuff up, Rampant, so your butt buddy wins.



If I used some common knowledge? Lmfao. You're an idiot. Mace fought Sidious in a smaller environment, and won. Clearly, from what we saw and "common sense", Mace doesn't need that much room to be effective. Adding to the fact the throne room is far larger, and provides much more space, it's not a disadvantage at all like you said.



How is it lessening my argument? When you say "all around great" that implies all categories of lightsaber usage, and I'm saying it's not the greatest at deflecting blaster bolts; it's more focused on lightsaber to lightsaber battles, and single opponents. That's all.

So, tell me, how does Vaapad not being great at blocking blaster fire (but not horrible either) take away from my argument? Yeah, you call me a fool? Get a friggin' clue.



First of all, Anakin's lightsaber form was an advantage over Dooku's. Mace's form draws from Anakin's form, except uses the power to a higher degree. And second of all, do you even know what kinetic energy is?



And that bullshit description is thrown out the window by the fact ROTS Anakin killed Dooku using Djem So.



And where was this? In Obsession? No, the fight went unfinished if you remember.



Yeah, considering he could do it to Palpatine, there's no reason he can't do it to Dooku, you moron, especially given how close they are in terms of power. Might not be able to see it? Are you serious? He already did once before (and same ethics don't apply for besting an opponent years before).



See above.



I did read it, again, I'll ask: why do you even mention these dumb f*cking things if you can't argue them? I simply just shot it down before you even tried to argue it, or even tried to use it as evidence. Something wrong with that?



You see, when people say "blow for blow" they usually mean they were completely even with no one side gaining an advantage. Maybe if you were older than. . .14? 15 at most? You'd have heard about it.

"Blow for blow" basically means they were even, that's what the term actually means, you moron, sure "technically" it would be described as such, but informally that is what it means, and is usually meant to be.



In comparison to Mace Windu? Hell no. How is that even relevant to the fight? How is Dooku defeating Obi-Wan and a padawan, headstrong Anakin going to help him beat Mace Windu? Quit delving into Feat Wars unless you're going to put them into context.



And where did I say he didn't? Where did I go into Feat Wars? Oh? I didn't? Adding to the fact Dooku was killed in a...

Straight up lightsaber fight,

...and Mace...

Already beat Sidious in the lightsaber duel, moron,

...and the reason Mace died was because Anakin...

Surprised Mace out of nowhere, and attacked at the last second.

How about you include the entire story next time you try to diminish a character? Good thing for us, there's actually a copy of ROTS available so you can't make up bullshit like this statement.

The difference was Dooku was killed straight up, Mace was killed after he beat Sidious (Dooku's superior, you dolt), and was surprised at the last second. So, why should I mention it?



Read Escape's post, there you go.



Lawlz. Mace beat Sidious in the actual fight. Sidious killed Mace in a surprise attack thanks to Anakin. Mace beat Sidious, sorry that it weakens your argument, but it is true.

Tyranus is the weak link here - he's no quite in the other's league.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
OMG!!! Did it ever cross your mind that Sidious was at a disadvantage with his use of Ataru?!

z0mg! Like wow, did it ever cross your mind that you're an idiot? A disadvantage? Lmfao. He killed three Jedi masters in seconds. Yeah, that sure is easy to do. And you said Mace Windu is at a disadvantage in a small area, so if Sidious was, then Mace was too (even though it is bullshit).

Thought so, double standards.



Why do you have practically an entire paragraph italicized? And, you're still an idiot. Qui-Gon doesn't use Ataru in the way Yoda does, Sidious does not use Ataru in the way Yoda does. Or are you going to explain how Qui-Gon was described as:

"Attacking with a ferociousness never seen before" (TPM novelization), when he started to assault Maul after the doors opened. How the hell can Qui-Gon attacked more viciously, and more effectively if Ataru's supposed weakness is the space? Obi-Wan didn't seem to have a problem in TPM when he sliced Maul's blade in half, now did he?

Oh, and by the way, you just owned yourself. If Windu is at a disadvantage in small areas (which was bullshit, but I'll play along for a sec) then so was Maul during TPM because he uses Juyo, and Vaapad is only an extension of Juyo.

Anyways, Ataru's weakness is their defense, dumbass.



Sadly, it's bullshit.



Let me tell you: you're a liar. How can Sidious manage to kill three Jedi masters in seconds, but not be able to achieve his maximum potential?

How is that you said Mace Windu is less effective in smaller areas, but it lessens his defeat of Sidious because Sidious was at a disadvantage? Nice double standards, Rampant.



And what happens when Mace Windu attacks Dooku head on?



LMFAO! Wookiepedia is a fallible, third party source. Show me some real evidence. If we go by Wookiepedia, Mace Windu would beat the shit out of Dooku.



Is that why he met Anakin and Obi-Wan head on. . .?



More Wookiepedia bullshit. Give me the actual source, and the actual quote. Not some fallible, third party non official site. Prove up.



So, explain how the likelihood (not "likelyhood", you idiot) is slim when:

1.) Sidious is more talented with a lightsaber.
2.) Mace sensed Sidious' shatterpoint while fighting.

Also, given the fact the ROTS novel says this:

"The fighting was effortless for him now; he let his body handle it without the intervention of his mind. While his blade spun and crackled, while his feet slid and his weight shifted and his shoulders turned in precise curves of their own direction, his mind slid along the circuit of dark power, tracing it back to its limitless source.
Feeling for its shatterpoint. "

What's that? Seems the ROTS novelization says Mace Windu doesn't necessarily have to worry about Dooku's attacks. He lets his body take over, and feels for the Shatterpoint. Very effective I must say, given he was still dueling Sidious, who is Dooku's superior, and given he f*cking owned Sidious right after.



Yoda didn't have enough time to take him down because the "great" Count ran the f*ck away is what I'm getting at. AOTC script says the following:

He flies forward. COUNT DOOKU is forced to retreat.

My point to counter that is, Darth Sidious, the strongest Sith of the era, Dooku's superior, was unable to take down Mace Windu without a surprise attack, and he was actually beaten by Windu. Do you understand this? My god.



You're clearly an idiot. You said "l0lz f0rg0t t0 m3nt1i0n m4c3 w45 pwn3d by f0rc3 l1`ghtn1n6!!1//!", and I replied with:

Originally posted by Advent
And where did I say he didn't? Where did I go into Feat Wars? Oh? I didn't? Adding to the fact Dooku was killed in a...

Straight up lightsaber fight,

...and Mace...

Already beat Sidious in the lightsaber duel, moron,

...and the reason Mace died was because Anakin...

Surprised Mace out of nowhere, and attacked at the last second.

How about you include the entire story next time you try to diminish a character? Good thing for us, there's actually a copy of ROTS available so you can't make up bullshit like this statement.

The difference was Dooku was killed straight up, Mace was killed after he beat Sidious (Dooku's superior, you dolt), and was surprised at the last second. So, why should I mention it?


Quit skirting the actual point, you were lying, I called you out on said lie, and you change the subject.



Okay:

1.) Mace Windu's shatterpoint ability was enough to turn a stalemate against Sidious into a victory.
2.) Windu actually beat Sidious, Dooku's superior.
3.) "You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with Sidious" (No Dooku).
4.) An aggressive and offensive form (Djem So) has been shown to counter Makashi, and render it less effective, and eventually overcome Dooku. And it just so happens Mace Windu uses an aggressive and offensive form that even draws from Djem So.

Along with everything Escape said, I agreed with Escape's points, so how can I state my reasons when they are basically the same?



Lol! Hypocrite much, Rampant?



Yeah, I defeated this absurd point already, dumbass. Dooku defeated Anakin in AOTC, but got his ass - head rather - handed to him in ROTS. Try again.

The same can't be said for Sidious/Mace since Mace beat Sidious in ROTS, and this is ROTS Sidious and ROTS Dooku, so if you are going to try to say it - don't bother.

And quit using Wookiepedia as if it is an official source. News flash, a--hole: it's not. Give me the actual source, and the actual quote instead of a third party source.

Finally some solid points to argue!! Im sorry but I had to cut the rest of your argument because I dont have time to argue such pointless bullsh*t. I might get to it later.



Yes, Mace did use Shatterpoint to defeat Sids. But who says there is going top be a shatterpoint in this battle? And even if there was, how do we know that Mace will see it? And finally how do we know Mace will capitalise on it? I mean, the Count is one of the best swordsman ever. He isnt going to give Mace a chance to stop and use the shatterpoint. And the shatterpoint is only there very briefly, Dooku can just keep Mace occupies while the shatterpoint passes them by.

Now before you have another hernia ill say this. The shatterpoint could be a significant help to Mace. But the chances of him being able to use one is slim for the reasons I stated above.



So. This doesnt mean that Mace will be able to beat Dooku. One battle proves nothing. And I can counter what you just said by saying that Dooku has beaten Mace before. But ill admit this means nothing because one battle doesnt prove the strength of the competitors.



See my above points. And also why would Dooku be on the list. Dooku doesnt want to compete with Sidious. He is Sids apprentice. Apart from his comments in AOTC (which meant nothing and led nowhere) Dooku has always respected his master.



And like I said before, Makashi lessens the kinetic energy created by parrying a technique, instead of meeting it head on. Dooku is smart, he knows his form is weak in that area and he will make sure Mace cant capitalise from it.



Fair enough.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Finally some solid points to argue!! Im sorry but I had to cut the rest of your argument because I dont have time to argue such pointless bullsh*t. I might get to it later.

Wow Rampant. You mean you don't want to admit defeat because I handed you your f*cking ass in a debate again? Thought so, I called you on bullshit numerous times, and whooped your ass. Try again, dumbass.



Are you freaking kidding me? Look below, and below again.



Are you f*cking kidding me? Look below.



Another stupid point by an equally stupid person. If you'd actually bother to read and reply to my entire post, you'd realize this was already addressed:

Originally posted by Advent
So, explain how the likelihood (not "likelyhood", you idiot) is slim when:

1.) Sidious is more talented with a lightsaber.
2.) Mace sensed Sidious' shatterpoint while fighting.

Also, given the fact the ROTS novel says this:

"The fighting was effortless for him now; he let his body handle it without the intervention of his mind. While his blade spun and crackled, while his feet slid and his weight shifted and his shoulders turned in precise curves of their own direction, his mind slid along the circuit of dark power, tracing it back to its limitless source.
Feeling for its shatterpoint. "

What's that? Seems the ROTS novelization says Mace Windu doesn't necessarily have to worry about Dooku's attacks. He lets his body take over, and feels for the Shatterpoint. Very effective I must say, given he was still dueling Sidious, who is Dooku's superior, and given he f*cking owned Sidious right after.

Again, Mace lets his body do the work, and feels for the shatterpoint. And as I said, he was defending against Sidious, who is Dooku's superior, while doing it - so there's definitely reason to believe he can do the same for Dooku. And adding to the fact that no one has ever even said to not have a shatterpoint, and adding to the fact Mace had already sensed Dooku's shatterpoint before ; it's reasonable to assume he can and will find Dooku's shatterpoint, and use it as seen against Sidious.

Do you realize how stupid you sound? "I'll get to the BS later"? Lmfao. This supposed bullshit just trampled your point, pal, but as always: you're welcome to try again.



Yet again you show your stupidity, Rampant. Dooku beat Mace years ago, key phrase: Years ago. Mace beat Sidious in the now (ROTS). Key phrase: "in the now", so there is no reason to believe Mace won't be able to do it again in a lightsaber fight, and overcome Dooku anyways.



Rofl. So, I guess we can't use the fact Mace already put Sidious on his ass in this fight? We can't use canon evidence that happened in the current (not ten some years ago or whatever) in a fight? What the hell?



I did, they were idiotic like I'm *guessing* the below points will be, too.



*Ding, ding!* I was right. Idiotic statement #236. When it means compete, it means just that. People who can keep up with Sidious. Dooku, apparently, cannot. It doesn't say people who "want to", it means people who actually can.



Then explain why he met Anakin and Obi-Wan's attacks head on in ROTS? And again, I ask, do you even know what kinetic energy is?

I ignored the rest of your argument because it was irrelevant to the conversation. The points I responded to were good points, and the only ones that would have continued the argument. And keep the bashing down. If you are trying to scare me out of the argument it wont work - but it does show me you are running out of ways to argue with me. Im going to bed. Ill debate the rest of your points tomorrow.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
I ignored the rest of your argument because it was irrelevant to the conversation.

Wow, that's some more bull, Rampant! Keep on spewing it.

I mean really, I even used one of the points you failed to respond to against one of your rebuttals. Irrelevant? I just proved otherwise. As usual, try again.



It's friggin' 4:54 AM. At night, I get pissy, and bored. I apologize, but really - who cares? It's an internet forum, and it's not like I truly mean it.



Or possibly trying to show you that you make stuff up, make points contrary to the fact, and demonstrated inability to forumlate a good argument.



And you failing to respond to them, calling the points irrelevant when one was even used in your rebuttal to the supposed "good points", shows me you haven't a clue what you're talking about.

And I'm just tired of you making ridiculous points, me shooting them down, and you making more. It's as if you have a clone army of ridiculous assertions, and I just can't shoot all of them down at once. So I'm sorry for that.

On another note: good night, and try not to have any wet dreams of your lover-boy, Chrissy Lee...

(Just kidding. Good night.)

BURN!!!

Adv......you on the move again, it was a delight to read!
I understand why you got so irritated eventually.
Rampent>>>Good night!

'and adding to the fact Mace had already sensed Dooku's shatterpoint before ; it's reasonable to assume he can and will find Dooku's shatterpoint, and use it as seen against Sidious.'

Are you sure about this? Mace did sense that Dooku was the war's shatterpoint, but I don't recall him ever sensing his actually shatterpoint. He certainly didn't when they fought in Obsession.

Originally posted by Sith'ari
'and adding to the fact Mace had already sensed Dooku's shatterpoint before ; it's reasonable to assume he can and will find Dooku's shatterpoint, and use it as seen against Sidious.'

Are you sure about this? Mace did sense that Dooku was the war's shatterpoint, but I don't recall him ever sensing his actually shatterpoint. He certainly didn't when they fought in Obsession.

Honestly, I don't even have a clue as to what happened, lol. Hence, the "supposedly/proof/Wookie" sentence; I'd even asked when the hell he did it, and I was given the answer of "Wookiepedia", haha.

Rampant said previously that Mace Windu had "sensed Dooku's shatterpoint before, and walked away", so I was just going on what he said, which, of course, was given no official source title, or no official quote other than some crap from Wookiepedia.

Rampant Ox, your argument died the minute you said Mace lost to Sidious.

Good morning all Now back to the fight...

Shatterpoint. You make it sound like this will be the deciding factor in the fight. If there is one, if Mace can find it, if Mace can capitalise on it before it disappears and if shatterpoint leads to Mace's victory then yes, there is a good chance Windu will win. But the chances of it all working in Mace's favor are slim - especially when you have a first class fighter like Dooku pummeling at your defences.

The Mace vs Sidious fight is hardly relevant. But ill say this. Mace won (or at least thought he won) the first part of the fight. Sidious was on the ground defenceless. However when Anakin sneak attacked him he got wtf pwned by Sidious' lightning. Meaning that Sidious wasnt as defenseless as Mace was led to beleive, meaning that Sidious was manipulating him to get too Anakin. However that is my theory and it is irrelevant to Dooku vs Mace. Now lets continue...

Lightsaber forms. Dooku is a master of Makashi and Mace Vaapad. They both know it to the highest degree. But Makashi is a form specifically created to duel. The same cannot be said about Vaapad. So straight away Dooku has the upperhand. Now yes, Makashi is said to be disadvantaged to Vaapad becauseof the kinetic energy. Makashi doesnt generate enought to compete with Vaapad head on. However this is fine, because Makashi isnt made to compete head on. It uses parrys and thrusts to defeat the opponent. This means it does not have to compete with the full kinetic energy Vaapad generates. Vaapad is a great form, im not arguing that. But in this specific fight I dont think it is enough to overwhelm Makashi, especially when it is in the hands of a master like Count Dooku.

I have more but I dont have time to state them. Ill get to it later. I look forwrd to your rebuttal Advent, im sure it will be compelling. And please, lets keep the converstion civil today.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Shatterpoint. You make it sound like this will be the deciding factor in the fight.

Uh, let's see here. It turned a stalemate against Sidious into a victory. It was the deciding factor against someone who is superior to Dooku.



Holy shit, you really are that dense. I addressed this, and quit saying "Dooku pummeling at your defenses", because Mace found Sidious' when he was beating the shit out of Sidious, adding to the fact Sidious is superior to Dooku...

Originally posted by Advent
So, explain how the likelihood (not "likelyhood", you idiot) is slim when:

1.) Sidious is more talented with a lightsaber.
2.) Mace sensed Sidious' shatterpoint while fighting.

Also, given the fact the ROTS novel says this:

"The fighting was effortless for him now; he let his body handle it without the intervention of his mind. While his blade spun and crackled, while his feet slid and his weight shifted and his shoulders turned in precise curves of their own direction, his mind slid along the circuit of dark power, tracing it back to its limitless source.
Feeling for its shatterpoint. "

What's that? Seems the ROTS novelization says Mace Windu doesn't necessarily have to worry about Dooku's attacks. He lets his body take over, and feels for the Shatterpoint. Very effective I must say, given he was still dueling Sidious, who is Dooku's superior, and given he f*cking owned Sidious right after.

Originally posted by Advent
Again, Mace lets his body do the work, and feels for the shatterpoint. And as I said, he was defending against Sidious, who is Dooku's superior, while doing it - so there's definitely reason to believe he can do the same for Dooku. And adding to the fact that no one has ever even said to not have a shatterpoint, and adding to the fact Mace had already sensed Dooku's shatterpoint before ; it's reasonable to assume he can and will find Dooku's shatterpoint, and use it as seen against Sidious.

Ever plan on actually reading before you post?



Go ahead then, you explain to me how it is "hardly relevant". Better yet, I'll just tell you why it is relevant - Mace beat Sidious in ROTS. This is ROTS Sidious and ROTS Mace, you dolt. Their fight is completely relevant here, and to assume otherwise:

a.) Is ludicrous (but I expect it from you, because you don't know what you're talking about).
b.) Calls for an explanation that you always seem to "fail to give" after I call you out on things.

I'm noticing a pattern.



The first part of the fight? Uh, he beat Sidious fair and square in a lightsaber duel. It's that simple, quit trying to diminish the feat as you're going to do below, because I countered this bullshit already.



Yeah? Your point? Sneak attack by Anakin, which unarmed Mace as well.



Yes, Sidious wasn't as defenseless when he was using the lightning, that's clear and obvious. He was defending, and trying to kill Mace Windu when they fought in the lightsaber fight, but Mace beat him. Now, since your theories are ridiculous, and are contradictory to the point, let's continue...

(Btw, Mace beating Sidious is relevant).



Your point? Djem So isn't created for "specifically" for dueling, but it was able to beat the shit out of the Count. Ataru isn't made "specifically" for dueling, but it would've beat the shit out of the Count.



Bullshit. Revenge of the Sith anyone?



Really? How is that Form V (Djem So) was able to overwhelm Makashi, while it was in the hands of "a master like Count Dooku", hm? Oh? You forgot, did you? Djem So > Makashi:

"His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head. "

As you think you've already addressed this point correctly, this is just a supporting factor, given that Vaapad is described as "more kinetic"...

"Skywalker was all over him.
The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and "

Oh, but I thought Dooku doesn't "meet the attacks"? Seems he does, and if he didn't he'd probably be cut in half. Also, given it says he needs to use a lot of his Force energy just to block them says a lot. And given Vaapad is way more aggressive, and draws upon more strength than Djem So, I'm inclined to say Mace's Vaapad gives him an advantage.

"Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade. "

Wow, Djem So's attacks were costing Dooku that much power? Aging him a decade? Looks like Makashi isn't the great advantage you think. Given that Vaapad draws from Anakin's form, and Yoda's form - both of which were overwhelming Dooku.

"And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step,"

Dooku was getting driven back, his defenses were faltering, and all from a form that Mace draws upon.

^
Don't want to believe it? Believe it.



Or you just don't want them to get torn apart.



It's a new day, but still the same old bullshit, Rampant, but of course I'll keep it toned down for ya', buddy boy.

Amen

Originally posted by Advent
Uh, let's see here. It turned a stalemate against Sidious into a victory. It was the deciding factor against someone who is superior to Dooku.

Fair enough. Im not arguing that if Mace manages to capitalise of the shatterpoint then he has a good chance at winning. But because of the factors I stated before, the chances of Mace doing it again are slim.



Yes, but Dooku is a totally different opponent that Sidious, they are fighting in a totally different environment and they know each others skill and ability to a certain extent. We cant assume that because Mace did it too Sidious then he can do it to Dooku.




It is irrelevant because we are discussing Mace vs Dooku, not Mace vs Sidious. If you are going to argue that then I will argue the fact that it is proven Dooku has bested Mace before. you cant have it both ways. And ones power can not be attained from just one battle.







Any questions you ask I will answer then. I usually dont answer them because they are irrelevant or undermining my intelligence.



Im noticing a bird flying outside. Who really gives a f*ck.



Ok. This was a simple miscommunication. Yes, Mace won the saber duel - the clash of the sabers is what I meant by the first part of the fight.



Well, if im not mistaking when someone gets hit with a lightsaber they usually arent expecting. Im sure Dooku wasnt expecting his hands to be removed, and im quite certain that Anakin wasnt expecting 3 of his limbs to be removed.




Yoda is simply better than the Count. Any form that Yoda uses would probably beat the Count. It is not always the form that wins, but the experience of the user. And I dont know wtf the Count was doing in ROTS, because it certainly didnt look like Makashi. Ill say it again, Djem So builds up alot of Kinetic Energy - but Makashi can neutralise that because it uses parrys instead of head on blocks. Meaning that Dooku doesnt have to absorb the full force of the attack. I dont know why he was not parrying in ROTS, perhaps his arrogance blinded him....




See above. Dooku should have parryed the attacks instead of meeting them head on. I dont know why he didnt - but we can assume that he would parry any attack that Mace threw at him.



Im inclined to disagree. As soon as Dooku parrys Mace instead of blocking head on then Mace's advantage goes out the window. And again I dont know why the Count didnt parry in ROTS - but we cant assume he wont parry against Mace seeing thats what his form is built to do.

The thing with Makashi is that it can be the best dueling form of them all, however it requires extreme concentration to be able to fight at its best. That's why it can't contend with overwhelming forms (such as Ataru, Vaapad, Schien) but can destroy when up against Soresu for example.

Originally posted by Sith'ari
The thing with Makashi is that it can be the best dueling form of them all, however it requires extreme concentration to be able to fight at its best. That's why it can't contend with overwhelming forms (such as Ataru, Vaapad, Schien) but can destroy when up against Soresu for example.

Fair enough, I see your point. But its not like Dooku doesnt have extreme concentration. He isnt some riff raff picked up from the slums of Coruscant and taught Makashi by some drug addict. He is the one of the top duellist of the era, easily able to take down most of the jedi council in a fight. He has the desire to win and would accept nothing less and to top it off he has been taught by arguably the two greatest force users of the era.

Sorry, Makashi... Dooku's going down in this, just as hard as Sidious is, the way I see it.

1, Dooku fights Mace while Yoda fights Sidious. Mace beats Dooku first and then he and Yoda together manage to beat Sidious. So the Jedi win.

2. Mace fights Sidious while Yoda fights Dooku. Mace is besting Sidious in saber combat but then Sidious attacks and kills Mace with the Force. Yoda kills Dooku and then fights Sidious but is to worn out to defeat the powerful Sith Lord. This time the Sith win.

So really I guess it could go either way.

I see Yoda finishing Dooku sooner than Sidious finishes Mace.

Dooku goes down first either way imo.

Maybe.

Possibly. Dooku is the weak link in terms of force powers. However I would rank him above both Mace and Sids in terms of saber skill (my opinion though, i cant be bothered with a huge argument about it ). It depends on who gets killed first - Dooku or Mace. Then the person who wins will go over and help defeat the enemy.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Possibly. Dooku is the weak link in terms of force powers. However I would rank him above both Mace and Sids in terms of saber skill (my opinion though, i cant be bothered with a huge argument about it ). It depends on who gets killed first - Dooku or Mace. Then the person who wins will go over and help defeat the enemy.

No, actually, I'd put Mace above Dooku in both. Not by a lot, but by enough. Sidious and Yoda are equals in the Force, but Yoda has superior lightsaber skills and Sidious is the smarter, more efficient fighter.

Dooku dies, then Mace and Yoda pwn Sidious.

He tried that already. He failed.

edit

Originally posted by Generic Hero
He tried that already. He failed.
No, he didn't, when he said he was to weak he was faking it, according to Lucas, meaning he still had much more fight left in him. Sidious unarmed beat Yoda while he was armed and most people think Yoda > Mace so that means Sidious would probably be able to take Mace out, too, if he wasn't pretending to be to weak.

Originally posted by darthsith19
No, he didn't, when he said he was to weak he was faking it, according to Lucas, meaning he still had much more fight left in him.Yes,he did.He may have had more energy,but Mace deflected most of it back at him.Anakin was the one who saved Palpatine's ass from being killed in the end,so your point is a moot one. Yeah,how much time did Yoda have his saber before Sidious disarmed him of it?Atleast 3-4 minutes,from what I saw in the movie.There goes your argument.

No, it isn't. Windu defeated an out-of-practice Palpatine in a lightsaber confrontation. Palpatine then tried to turn the tide by using his superior Force powers (unless you or Generic Hero would like to argue that Mace > Sidious in Force powers) from an inferior position.

Then we know that Mace barely held that assault at bay, and, according to Lucas, Palpatine was pretending to be weak, meaning that he had more fight and more power left in him, where it was apparent that Mace didn't.

Though, yes, in the end, it was Palpatine manipulating Anakin into acting that ultimately saved him.



Yes, because Palpatine switched to long-range assaults to try to take Yoda out. The next time that Palpatine used lightning, Yoda's lightsaber went bye-bye.

Sorry that the guy can't aim a fricken Senate pod to disarm someone.

Originally posted by Escape81
No, it isn't. Windu defeated an out-of-practice Palpatine in a lightsaber confrontation. Palpatine then tried to turn the tide by using his superior Force powers (unless you or Generic Hero would like to argue that Mace > Sidious in Force powers) from an inferior position.

Then we know that Mace barely held that assault at bay, and, according to Lucas, Palpatine was pretending to be weak, meaning that he had more fight and more power left in him, where it was apparent that Mace didn't.

Though, yes, in the end, it was Palpatine manipulating Anakin into acting that ultimately saved him.



Yes, because Palpatine switched to long-range assaults to try to take Yoda out. The next time that Palpatine used lightning, Yoda's lightsaber went bye-bye.

Sorry that the guy can't aim a fricken Senate pod to disarm someone.

I'll admit that I haven't read this thread but this post made me want to comment. Escape I know you can say that Sidious was out of practice but the bottom line is, he underestimated Windu and Windu is the superior of the two in saber combat, however Sidious>Windu in force abilities is a given.

And no, I don't know where you are getting your information from, but according to Lucas, Sidious started faking after his initial lightning attempt failed. I guess you can say Windu barely blocked it but he blocked or rather deflected it, so no need to think that Sidious had this all planned out, because it is clearly stated that Windu overpowered him. You cannot sit there and say Sidious had it all planned out because he did NOT know which way Anakin was going to turn.

Perhaps you should read carefully. Then, read this thread. And then read where I have said before, time again, that Mace was superior to Sidious in lightsaber combat. Recall where I said before that Sidious hadn't touched his saber in thirteen years.

Once again, DS, do not assume. You know what it makes out of you and me.



Did I say that he planned it all out? When you show me where I did, we'll continue.

You did say that he faked being weak, and weren't specific. I've heard the Sidious fanboy rumors before about Sidious planning the entire thing out.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You did say that he faked being weak, and weren't specific. I've heard the Sidious fanboy rumors before about Sidious planning the entire thing out.

a. Lucas specifically stated that Palpatine was pretending to be weak.

b. If I were a Sidious fanboy, then you'd never see the words "Sidious would die" or "Sidious would get pwnt" pass from me. And, yet they do. Be careful before you label or imply that I am one.

c. There is a case to be made that Sidious could have planned it all (i.e: Palpatine allowing Anakin to tell the Jedi and not caring; Palpatine's voice-over in the Council chambers to Anakin; the impeccable timing of Palpatine's disarming; Palpatine being a master manipulator who toyed with Yoda and Mace for a decade, so it would certainly be in his capability). And, if one wanted to argue semantics, the definition of overpowered, being that, if Palpatine were holding back, he was still - by literary definition - overpowered.

However, it is also just as logical to believe that Palpatine, who hadn't touched his lightsaber in thirteen years, was simply - in the end - defeated due to Mace's shatterpoint ability and his own arrogance.

Also, DS, the official novelization said that it was the shatterpoint that gave Mace his victory over Palpatine. Not superior saber skills.

ok, so at BEST Sidious is equal to Windu in saber combat.. At BEST.. And it was ALSO stated that he pretended being weak after his initial force lightning attempt failed.

Well i think mace and yoda would be able to take this since when yoda and dooku fought yoda would have beat him if not for dooku using the distraction on havin the pillar fall on him. I also believe mace could hold off palpitine until yoda gets to them and then togather they would be able to take palpitine.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
ok, so at BEST Sidious is equal to Windu in saber combat.. At BEST.. And it was ALSO stated that he pretended being weak after his initial force lightning attempt failed.

Dude, I never said that Lucas confirmed that Palpatine was faking the entire duel. I simply said that Generic Hero made it seem as if the part where Palpatine failed his Force assault on Mace actually counted for something, given that Palpatine was in an inferior position, and that Mace was unable to last any longer according to the novelization - but Palpatine had energy left.

As for the saber skills, my point on Palpatine is this. This man was the Supreme Chancellor of the Galactic Republic. The essential uber politician. The one with the most press, the most scrutiny. He hasn't practiced in lightsaber dueling for thirteen years. Maul gave testimony to how skilled Palpatine was, during Maul's training. My point is that Palpatine is an incredibly gifted duelist to be able to do what he did, when he was thirteen years out of practice, against opponents who had been training for longer and who had actually seen frontline action.

I wouldn't doubt that he'd be the best duelist in the PT, had he been in practice.

So, yes, I'm sure he could take Mace in an all out fight. The only thing that would prove particularly hazardous for Palpatine is Mace's shatterpoint ability.

Yeah, Sidious probably managed to keep up with his force powers and studying at night (instead of sleeping), but, I doubt that he really did much if anything with his saber.

I don't know, you can't quantify his power with those 13 years. You don't know how much better he would have been. I wouldn't put him above Yoda in saber combat at all regardless of those 13 years, and not until DE.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I don't know, you can't quantify his power with those 13 years. You don't know how much better he would have been. I wouldn't put him above Yoda in saber combat at all regardless of those 13 years, and not until DE.

Given Maul's descriptions of Sidious's skill, and the fact that he put them both to the test despite being thirteen years out of practice, I would say that it is highly possible that Sidious could have been the best. But that's neither here nor there.

And, once again, I fail to see how your opinion matters, due to the fact that you weren't even aware of his skills before RotS. And, I am not trying to be rude, but - quite frankly - what would you know?