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Although you people have been debating his power endlessly.

I believe its time to put an end to this debate.

I agree with those such as Escape81, although Ragnos is described to having tremendous power and phyiscal strength, we just do not have enough proof.

However saying DE Sidious, Yoda and the Jedi/Sith that have solid evidence on their power can defeat Ragnos is entirely absurd.

Lightsnake, you cannot definitely prove that DE Sidious was the most powerful of the most powerful. Yes he was described in various sources as that powerful, however you cannot compare him to Ragnos, why? Because everything we have on Ragnos is pure speculation.

For all you know, Ragnos could have some power that could blow up the galaxy or he may just be a fraud having no amazing powers.

Although you are an excellent debator, you have very biased opinions, you assume the best for Sidious and the worse for Ragnos, such as Nihilus, you so its "probable" that he has a blocking technique for Nihilus's drain attack, and im not denying that he doesnt. Just notice how you've assumed that he DOES, and not that he DOESNT, you evidently favour him over although characters.

After rereading the old debates and reading the new ones, everything that surrounds the Ancient Sith is speculation and a debate involving any of them against any Jedi/Sith that we have evidence on, will never end, simply because you cannot prove without launching feat wars, which obviously means that someone such as JA Kyle Katarn would surpass them in power.

By all means continue arguing who's more powerful, you'll never succeed in solidly establishing DE Sidious/DN Luke > Ragnos nor Ragnos > DN Luke/DE Sidious.

There will always be people on both sides..

Cyz

Originally posted by Deception
Although you people have been debating his power endlessly.

I believe its time to put an end to this debate.

I agree with those such as Escape81, although Ragnos is described to having tremendous power and phyiscal strength, we just do not have enough proof.

However saying DE Sidious, Yoda and the Jedi/Sith that have solid evidence on their power can defeat Ragnos is entirely absurd.

Lightsnake, you cannot definitely prove that DE Sidious was the most powerful of the most powerful. Yes he was described in various sources as that powerful, however you cannot compare him to Ragnos, why? Because everything we have on Ragnos is pure speculation.

For all you know, Ragnos could have some power that could blow up the galaxy or he may just be a fraud having no amazing powers.

Although you are an excellent debator, you have very biased opinions, you assume the best for Sidious and the worse for Ragnos, such as Nihilus, you so its "probable" that he has a blocking technique for Nihilus's drain attack, and im not denying that he doesnt. Just notice how you've assumed that he DOES, and not that he DOESNT, you evidently favour him over although characters.

After rereading the old debates and reading the new ones, everything that surrounds the Ancient Sith is speculation and a debate involving any of them against any Jedi/Sith that we have evidence on, will never end, simply because you cannot prove without launching feat wars, which obviously means that someone such as JA Kyle Katarn would surpass them in power.

By all means continue arguing who's more powerful, you'll never succeed in solidly establishing DE Sidious/DN Luke > Ragnos nor Ragnos > DN Luke/DE Sidious.

There will always be people on both sides..

Cyz aye, but tisnt it fun to have a freindly arguement?

Originally posted by D-Paper Weight
aye, but tisnt it fun to have a freindly arguement?

Ha. The arguments never turn out friendly, amigo.

Sure they do. I mean, take you for example Motoko, you've never ONCE insulted anyone, or shown any frusteration or anger.


:P

How true. I guess I'm the "KMC Angel". Ha, yeah right.

For all you know, Ragnos could have some power that could blow up the galaxy or he may just be a fraud having no amazing powers

Okay...

Originally posted by Deception
Although you people have been debating his power endlessly.

I believe its time to put an end to this debate.

I agree with those such as Escape81, although Ragnos is described to having tremendous power and phyiscal strength, we just do not have enough proof.

However saying DE Sidious, Yoda and the Jedi/Sith that have solid evidence on their power can defeat Ragnos is entirely absurd.

Lightsnake, you cannot definitely prove that DE Sidious was the most powerful of the most powerful. Yes he was described in various sources as that powerful, however you cannot compare him to Ragnos, why? Because everything we have on Ragnos is pure speculation.

For all you know, Ragnos could have some power that could blow up the galaxy or he may just be a fraud having no amazing powers.

Although you are an excellent debator, you have very biased opinions, you assume the best for Sidious and the worse for Ragnos, such as Nihilus, you so its "probable" that he has a blocking technique for Nihilus's drain attack, and im not denying that he doesnt. Just notice how you've assumed that he DOES, and not that he DOESNT, you evidently favour him over although characters.

After rereading the old debates and reading the new ones, everything that surrounds the Ancient Sith is speculation and a debate involving any of them against any Jedi/Sith that we have evidence on, will never end, simply because you cannot prove without launching feat wars, which obviously means that someone such as JA Kyle Katarn would surpass them in power.

By all means continue arguing who's more powerful, you'll never succeed in solidly establishing DE Sidious/DN Luke > Ragnos nor Ragnos > DN Luke/DE Sidious.

There will always be people on both sides..

Cyz

Amen

Alright then, Deception, then why didn't people on this forum-you included- stop with the 'Ragnos was so godly, he could take Luke, Exar Kun and Yoda all at once and would probably win' bull? If someone brought up this point ages back, such flame wars never would have happened

If we argue from what we know, then we can assume something rather fairly. In universe or without as well

It's called balance lightsnake, now we have stupidity such as "Yoda could take on the ancient sith" and "Sidious pwns".

Unfortunately, we tend to have evidence rather than hearsay

'For all you know, Ragnos could have some power that could blow up the galaxy or he may just be a fraud having no amazing powers.'

Well that's not totally true - we can actually deduce quite a bit. We all know that the ancient sith with their amulets could accomplish and do some pretty incredible things (making stars go nova, creating mass illusions that could become real etc.) - they were described as godly. We also know that Ragnos was described as the top dog of all the ancient sith and anybody up until his time, the best of the best. Even someone as powerful as Kreia stated that Marka ragnos was incredibly strong both in the force and physically, and that he had a frightening grasp of the dark side.

We also know that he remained dark lord of the sith and nobody was ever able to usurp his title (remember, this was at a time where civil war and rebellion was common), and he was able to keep his title for centuries (it seems) and only died of natural causes.

Now while we have never actually seen him do jack when he was in his prime, a good way to compare how powerful he was is by comparing the capabilities of his spirit with others. Now although as spirits, Kun was able to do much more and was a way bigger threat, and simply outclassed him, Ragnos' spirit was 1,000 years older and spirits naturally decrease in power over the years, so I thought I'd just point that out.

I myself actually believe that there are probably a few that would be able to take him, but I agree with Deception that there is really no way to know and I do believe he's slightly underrated.

Well, let it be known that none of us - especially myself - have ever denied that Ragnos was not, at least, one of the most powerful Sith Lords out there. Nor have we ever denied that he was the strongest of the Ancient Sith.



How so?

If I may say so, you in the past have argued strongly in the favor of the Ancient Sith's supremecy and dominance, when we simply have nothing to support that theory in the slightest. We have proven that, outside Naga Sadow's technology, he has done nothing absolutely noteworthy.

Also, considering how Lucas referred to the PT as the prime of the Jedi, I am inclined to think that both factions (Sith and Jedi) increased in power as time progressed. Perhaps not even as a whole, but in some cases. Which would explain why multiple sources verbally fellate Palpatine as much as they do.



a. More sources label Palpatine as the most powerful than any other Sith Lord - Ragnos and Kun included.

b. Once again, I ask you, then how is it that you compared them both on previous occasions?



Not likely.



I never agreed that he has a blocking technique for it (and I realized that this is mostly addressed to Lightsnake), but we have already proven that Palpatine himself is capable of personally draining planets - even methodically and experimentally - whereas, as far as we know, Ragnos required a scepter.



No. I agree that the topmost Ancient Sith (Ragnos, Sadow, Kressh, Simus) are among the most powerful of Force users. But given the previous facts, I do not consider them the most powerful. I consider Kun and Palpatine to be - at the very least - their equals, and NJO/LotF Luke to be leagues above them.



We have amassed more proof and evidence than the others have, so while we may not ever prove it with a statement that "the Ancient Sith are inferior", we are - by evidence (or lack thereof on the opposition's parts) winning the debate.

Interesting. I don't believe the Sith/Jedi got better, I think with the exception of some, they got worse, techniques got lost, etc. Palpatine being stated as the best means nothing except for the fact that he was Lucas' personal creation, which is enough for him to be up there, along with everybody from all 6 movies. I do not consider the likes of Kun to be on par with Ragnos, perhaps Sadow maybe. But obviously by DN, Luke is already a force god beyond everybody.

Lucas's statement that the PT was the "Prime of the Jedi" directly contradicts that opinion. The PT Jedi were, as a whole, superior to any before it - and likely - any after it.

Whoa whoa escape, it actually supports it. Lucas' own personal creation take priority over anything else. The PT Jedi were superior in what exactly? Saber combat? We've had discussions about this. You're claiming that the PT Jedi were superior to before them, to the NJO Jedi, etc? Come on.

The Prime of The Jedi article and video (http://www.starwars.com/episode-i/bts/me1/6.html) was clearly imo disregarding the EU. I've already posted my reasons and I'm sure that many (Deception perhaps) will agree - when the PT is stated to be the Prime of the Jedi, it is stated in regards to choreography and in comparison to the OT, which leads me to believe that Lucas was disregarding the EU. He also states it in a casual but extremely vague way, and the ambiguity of the statement makes it hard for me to accept it as fact.
Now I'm not saying that the PT order couldn't have been the most powerful order, but that article far from proves it imo.

Let's assume Ragnos could throw stars around like we used to, it is fun for DBZ SW fans.

EDIT

Originally posted by Sith'ari
'For all you know, Ragnos could have some power that could blow up the galaxy or he may just be a fraud having no amazing powers.'

Well that's not totally true - we can actually deduce quite a bit. We all know that the ancient sith with their amulets could accomplish and do some pretty incredible things (making stars go nova, creating mass illusions that could become real etc.) - they were described as godly. We also know that Ragnos was described as the top dog of all the ancient sith and anybody up until his time, the best of the best. Even someone as powerful as Kreia stated that Marka ragnos was incredibly strong both in the force and physically, and that he had a frightening grasp of the dark side.

We also know that he remained dark lord of the sith and nobody was ever able to usurp his title (remember, this was at a time where civil war and rebellion was common), and he was able to keep his title for centuries (it seems) and only died of natural causes.

Now while we have never actually seen him do jack when he was in his prime, a good way to compare how powerful he was is by comparing the capabilities of his spirit with others. Now although as spirits, Kun was able to do much more and was a way bigger threat, and simply outclassed him, Ragnos' spirit was 1,000 years older and spirits naturally decrease in power over the years, so I thought I'd just point that out.

I myself actually believe that there are probably a few that would be able to take him, but I agree with Deception that there is really no way to know and I do believe he's slightly underrated.


I agree with you, but without sufficient sources and evidence i doubt people like lightsnake will change their opinions of their idols. No offense meant, i admit im a fanboy of a sort, but as you can see i'm taking a very objective view, and in a sense reasonable.

Look very carefully, you guys are debating over speculation vs evidence. Oh yes Escape "his labelled as the most powerful" the narrator labelled Ragnos as the THE Dark Lord of the Sith, so you want to ignore one piece of description and use another? By all means Sidious accomplished more and has around 20000000 more sources on him, and he might be stronger he might not. I'm asking to stop these debates that arouse so much hatred within this forum

To Lightsnake, well i DID think of Ragnos as GODLY and the BEST and my personal opinion still complies with it, but i have nothing but speculation and a few descriptions backing me up. Whilst you have a fair amount of sources and feats.

By all means keep your personal opinion, as eveyone is entitled to theirs and you should have noticed this is my first time in the forum for a while, quite frankly you guys can utter as much bullshit as i did and the rest of the Ragnos supporters.

Originally posted by Deception
I agree with you, but without sufficient sources and evidence i doubt people like lightsnake will change their opinions of their idols. No offense meant, i admit im a fanboy of a sort, but as you can see i'm taking a very objective view, and in a sense reasonable.

Look very carefully, you guys are debating over speculation vs evidence. Oh yes Escape "his labelled as the most powerful" the narrator labelled Ragnos as the THE Dark Lord of the Sith, so you want to ignore one piece of description and use another? By all means Sidious accomplished more and has around 20000000 more sources on him, and he might be stronger he might not. I'm asking to stop these debates that arouse so much hatred within this forum

To Lightsnake, well i DID think of Ragnos as GODLY and the BEST and my personal opinion still complies with it, but i have nothing but speculation and a few descriptions backing me up. Whilst you have a fair amount of sources and feats.

By all means keep your personal opinion, as eveyone is entitled to theirs and you should have noticed this is my first time in the forum for a while, quite frankly you guys can utter as much bullshit as i did and the rest of the Ragnos supporters.


I completely agree, but I am also a Ragnos+Ancient Sith fan.

Deception, you want to ignore another LFL author clarified that was way back 5000 years ago? You want to ignore that description is only TALKING ABOUT 5000 years ago?

And Sith'ari, give this 'disregarding the EU' stuff a rest. Doesn't matter if he considered it or not.

imo, he did.

Give it a rest. It doesn't matter a whit. Lucas said it, so others picked up on it. Meaning the PT? Prime of the Jedi

Yes it does matter, because if Lucas was disregarding the EU (which I think he was), all that statement proves is that the PT jedi order was stronger than the jedi order (if you can even call it an order) in the OT... duh.

Doesn't matter. Lucas said it, it goes.
PT>Jedi of ages past

No lightsnake, he said prime of the jedi in saber dueling, he never said anything about PT Jedi>past Jedi and future Jedi.

Nope, he said 'prime of the Jedi'
Let's use logic...Golden Age, Prime of the Jedi...
Nothing about saber dueling...just 'of the Jedi'

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Nope, he said 'prime of the Jedi'
Let's use logic...Golden Age, Prime of the Jedi...
Nothing about saber dueling...just 'of the Jedi'


Oh ok. So PT Jedi>NJO that includes Kyp, Kyle, and of course Luke.. Because that TRULY makes sense.

Golden age of the jedi = a relatively peaceful time with hardly any combat. This applies to some time before TPM to AOTC.

Prime of the Jedi = the jedi at its best in terms of saber dueling in the films. This applies to the prequel trilogy.

Except it was the Jeid fighting in their prime and EU's clarified it as golden age of powers. Lucas clarified it was their prime

Sorry.

Lucas was vague, the statement was unclear and ambiguous, the article was in a choreographical point of view (in other words, just the movies) and was simply only comparing the PT to the OT and thus disregarding the EU - in other words the statement doesn't apply to the EU. Don't you also happen to find it odd that the jedi at their best in terms of saber combat would be in a relatively peaceful period which saw very little combat (especially saber combat - hardly any) and where the most practiced form was Niman - the diplomat's form?

this isn't debateable. He said prime of the Jedi and that means PRIME of the Jedi.
Deal with it

Yes, it is. Just because you can't debate against it...

Right, not like I have Lucas...

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Oh ok. So PT Jedi>NJO that includes Kyp, Kyle, and of course Luke.. Because that TRULY makes sense.

I miss the days when everyone just couldn't be arsed to believe anything else than Revan being the greatest. I mean, he's got style, some of those ancient Jedi, not so much.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Doesn't matter. Lucas said it, it goes.
PT>Jedi of ages past


Funny that Lucas also mentions that he doesn't DEAL with the EU stuff. That stuff and his stuff are completely different, he says.

Does it mean whatever Lucas creates is the strongest? No, of course not.

Everything displayed by the ancients was far more impressive than what the PT Sith (Count Dooku, Sidious, Maul, Vader) have shown.

Originally posted by zephiel7
Funny that Lucas also mentions that he doesn't DEAL with the EU stuff. That stuff and his stuff are completely different, he says.

Does it mean whatever Lucas creates is the strongest? No, of course not.

Everything displayed by the ancients was far more impressive than what the PT Sith (Count Dooku, Sidious, Maul, Vader) have shown.


Exactly, as long as it doesn't contradicts Lucas' stuff, it works.

Let me make this abundantly clear to you all. If it doesn't work, I can have Ush come here and reiterate it. Once George Lucas gives off a statement regarding Star Wars, it is irrefutable. You cannot debate against it.

His opinion is the Star Wars law. Your opinions, Nebaris, are insignificant next to his, useless, and completely wrong if it directly defies Lucas's words and authority. As does mine, or anyone else's.

So, if he stated the PT to be the "prime of the Jedi" (which he did), then it is a cold, hard fact. You are not Lucas. Do not presume to possess the intellect, the authority, or the legal right to attempt to refute one of Lucas's statements. You don't possess any of the three.

He does not have to take the EU "into consideration" for it to become a fact in the EU. Considering how the PT Jedi Order is the only one we've seen in the movies at all, it obliterates your notion that it counts for "just the movies".

Lucas still has full authority over the movies and the Expanded Universe.

If you don't like it, sorry. Your opinions mean jack.

Ok so in your logic, the PT Jedi>Luke, Kype, Kyle too?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Ok so in your logic, the PT Jedi>Luke, Kype, Kyle too?

I've said my opinion on this before. Do I need to go over it again?

Lucas said that "the prime of the Jedi" was in the PT. The Jedi Order. That means, as a whole - the PT Jedi is more powerful than the NJO Jedi.

But, that does not mean every single PT Jedi is superior to every other Jedi.

There are exceptions.

Edit: Furthermore, I would strongly advise that you stop using Nebaris's pathetic logic. If you are arrogant to believe that your pathetic opinion is even "on par" with Lucas's statements, then you are sadly mistaken.

whoa whoa, when did I say I agree with Nebaris? And when did my opinion become pathetic? You need to calm the **** down and realize this is a star wars forum, not something meaningful.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
whoa whoa, when did I say I agree with Nebaris? And when did my opinion become pathetic? You need to calm the **** down and realize this is a star wars forum, not something meaningful.

Then don't feed me this crap here:



It is Lucas who made such logic. It is Lucas who decides what is law and fact in Star Wars, and it is Lucas who says that the Prequel Trilogy was "the prime of the Jedi". Meaning his logic is the dominant one.

I have offered an explanation as to the possible discrepencies. But if you want to argue against his logic, do it with someone who thinks your opinion is worth something compared to his.

To be honest, I dont give a cow what Lucas thinks, the guys made enough bad mistakes during his career to warrent that criticism. See, if everyone just interpreted things in there own way, like your supposed to, then it'd be fine...but it seems we are stuck in some machevellian race of who is the best

When you say "The PT Jedi>Everybody else", what do you think that means? You translate that into "the whole amount", while to me it means every PT Jedi is more powerful than every other Jedi in every other era. Furthermore I could care less if you think my opinion isn't worth it. It's a hell of a lot better than "Oh lucas says this lucas says that therefore I don't have to give me input because lucas said so".

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
When you say "The PT Jedi>Everybody else", what do you think that means? You translate that into "the whole amount", while to me it means every PT Jedi is more powerful than every other Jedi in every other era. Furthermore I could care less if you think my opinion isn't worth it. It's a hell of a lot better than "Oh lucas says this lucas says that therefore I don't have to give me input because lucas said so".

The quote was "the PT was the prime of the Jedi". If you wish to get all pissy because Lucas's opinion = law, while yours = jack, then that's fine by me. But no where does it state that "everyone in the PT was better than everyone else. Period."

Oh, and, while we're at it, I base my opinions and arguments on fact, provided by Lucas and such, and rarely do I go outside of those bounds. If Lucas says something regarding Star Wars, and my opinion conflicts with it, then my opinion is wrong. Don't presume that yours is above that.

Originally posted by Escape81
The quote was "the PT was the prime of the Jedi". If you wish to get all pissy because Lucas's opinion = law, while yours = jack, then that's fine by me. But no where does it state that "everyone in the PT was better than everyone else. Period."

Oh, and, while we're at it, I base my opinions and arguments on fact, provided by Lucas and such, and rarely do I go outside of those bounds. If Lucas says something regarding Star Wars, and my opinion conflicts with it, then my opinion is wrong. Don't presume that yours is above that.

Hey mate, dont worry, your opinion can never be wrong. You just gotta believe in yourself

k?

Originally posted by exanda kane
Hey mate, dont worry, your opinion can never be wrong. You just gotta believe in yourself

k?

Um... opinions can be wrong...

Originally posted by Escape81
The quote was "the PT was the prime of the Jedi". If you wish to get all pissy because Lucas's opinion = law, while yours = jack, then that's fine by me. But no where does it state that "everyone in the PT was better than everyone else. Period."

Oh, and, while we're at it, I base my opinions and arguments on fact, provided by Lucas and such, and rarely do I go outside of those bounds. If Lucas says something regarding Star Wars, and my opinion conflicts with it, then my opinion is wrong. Don't presume that yours is above that.


Uh wait, you throw a temper tantrum and call my opinion irrelevant and meaningless and IM pissy? Wow, can we say projection? I never argued once with lucas so quit your annoying bitching and move on with your life.

Escape I can understand that you hate me, although I don't know why and you have no reason to do so, but can you please put a stop to this online vendetta you have against me. The main reasons why you are actually so respected on this forum is because of your seemingly unbias and unaggressive attitude. You however are actually turning into an antediluvian and a huge fanboy, and believe me, you are losing a lot of respect because of it.

Anyways if Lucas makes it completely clear that the jedi order seen in the first 3 episodes is the most powerful jedi order there ever was and ever will be, I of course wouldn't attempt to refute that.
However, the statement was:
1. Very unclear, ambiguous and vague.
2. Made in the point of view of choreography (and so only applies to the movies).
In other words, Lucas was disregarding the EU and only considering the movies, thus the statement doesn't apply to the EU.

Well again as a whole it could potentially be true. In regards to the most powerful jedi, it could be argued that it was that era, or the NJO, or more logically the old republic era that produced the likes of Kun, Nadd, Revan, Malak, and Qel Droma.

Originally posted by Escape81
Um... opinions can be wrong...

Look,look,look, your going about this all wrong. You seem at war with yourself, and thats just not cricket dear.

You need to see a counsellor as soon and possible and raise that self esteem! You can do anything and no damn naysayer will say anything about it!

Thats the positive attitude you need sonny jim.

I doubt it. Don't you happen to find it odd that the jedi at their best in terms of saber combat would be in a relatively peaceful period which saw very little combat (especially saber combat - hardly any) and where the most practiced form was Niman - the diplomat's form? I mean the dueling form, Makashi was considered long forgotten and ancient, and only practiced by a few. Now I agree that the PT order produced a few exceptional duelists (Dooku, Yoda, Mace), however as a whole it is illogical to believe that it was the strongest order in terms of dueling simply because there was so little saber combat. And that quote hardly proves it.

Originally posted by exanda kane
Look,look,look, your going about this all wrong. You seem at war with yourself, and thats just not cricket dear.

You need to see a counsellor as soon and possible and raise that self esteem! You can do anything and no damn naysayer will say anything about it!

Thats the positive attitude you need sonny jim.

Escape got burned.

Originally posted by Sith'ari
I doubt it. Don't you happen to find it odd that the jedi at their best in terms of saber combat would be in a relatively peaceful period which saw very little combat (especially saber combat - hardly any) and where the most practiced form was Niman - the diplomat's form? I mean the dueling form, Makashi was considered long forgotten and ancient, and only practiced by a few. Now I agree that the PT order produced a few exceptional duelists (Dooku, Yoda, Mace), however as a whole it is illogical to believe that it was the strongest order in terms of dueling simply because there was so little saber combat. And that quote hardly proves it.


Perhaps but I do see that while other eras might have more powerful jedi in terms of the best of the best, the PT era produced the MOST consistent Jedi, meaning you have at least 6 that are pretty damn powerful while in other eras you have 3-4 tops.

Originally posted by Sith'ari

Anyways if Lucas makes it completely clear that the jedi order seen in the first 3 episodes is the most powerful jedi order there ever was and ever will be, I of course wouldn't attempt to refute that.
However, the statement was:
1. Very unclear, ambiguous and vague.
2. Made in the point of view of choreography (and so only applies to the movies).
In other words, Lucas was disregarding the EU and only considering the movies, thus the statement doesn't apply to the EU.

I'll add to that. As usual Uncle George messed things up and made a very strange and vague statement. He says the Jedi were at there prime. Now the key word there is prime, for it can be intepreted in many different ways, much like the jedi can be from the viewer. Now theres many different mediums in which we do see Jedi so its all going to affect peoples intepretations.

We have those from the "video game" crowd who think of Jedi in terms of warriors and swordsman, we have the fans of the original trilogy that think of them as knights of honour and justice, we have those who saw the originals and watch them be absorped into pop culture and see them as mysterious and slightly pathetic wisemen and we have the new generation of kiddies thinking of Jedi as CGI ninjas more suited to an anime film. Now from all of those different interpretations and the many others there are, Lucas has picked a term which could mean all of them, or just a one of them.

Now probably, as it is Lucas he thinks of Jedi in his own way and disregards all the EU material which gives a deeper meaning to the Jedi, so he uses prime as a very generic term, hence why many arguments using this statement are void. We do not know what he is talking about, is it the methods, leadership, beliefs, ideals, impact on the galaxy, individual people in the order, the orders popularity...we just do not know.

Originally posted by exanda kane
I'll add to that. As usual Uncle George messed things up and made a very strange and vague statement. He says the Jedi were at there prime. Now the key word there is prime, for it can be intepreted in many different ways, much like the jedi can be from the viewer. Now theres many different mediums in which we do see Jedi so its all going to affect peoples intepretations.

We have those from the "video game" crowd who think of Jedi in terms of warriors and swordsman, we have the fans of the original trilogy that think of them as knights of honour and justice, we have those who saw the originals and watch them be absorped into pop culture and see them as mysterious and slightly pathetic wisemen and we have the new generation of kiddies thinking of Jedi as CGI ninjas more suited to an anime film. Now from all of those different interpretations and the many others there are, Lucas has picked a term which could mean all of them, or just a one of them.

Now probably, as it is Lucas he thinks of Jedi in his own way and disregards all the EU material which gives a deeper meaning to the Jedi, so he uses prime as a very generic term, hence why many arguments using this statement are void. We do not know what he is talking about, is it the methods, leadership, beliefs, ideals, impact on the galaxy, individual people in the order, the orders popularity...we just do not know.

Wow, that actually made sense, however.

On one hand, prime is a very conclusive term. On the other hand, i've always maintained that the "Golden Age" of the Jedi which took place in and before TPM i think, is the age of peace, not power. Obviously there is the conflict of Naboo but then again, it could have been the only conflict at that time, and a small one at that. This is just a theory. I'm just rambling so anyways, prime in this case is a very vague term in terms of the jedi, as opposed to something like "The Golden Age of the Sith", which was stated as the apex of sith knowledge, and sith alchemy.

I've PM'ed Ush. I told him about the situation and asked him to look into it, which I'm sure that he will. But, back to the argument:

a. I want it made clear that I never said nor implied that the PT Jedi Order's members were intrinsically more powerful than any other Jedi we've ever featured. However, given that their number standed at 10,000 or so - and that they spawned the prodigies such as: Yoda, Mace, Dooku, Anakin, Obi-Wan, Depa, and so forth - they would be considered, as a whole, the prime of the Jedi, coordinating with Lucas's statements.

b. That doesn't mean that every single one of their number is more powerful. Aside from Yoda, Windu, and Dooku, I'm not aware of any PT Jedi who could hope to contend with the likes of Exar Kun or the other former Jedi. However, only a select few are to be considered more powerful than the PT generation.

c. What exactly leads you to believe that the "golden age" is to be translated differently for the Sith and Jedi? Modern day usage of that phrase indicates both size and power. Why should it be different for the Jedi, in Star Wars? But that isn't to say that there aren't some Sith and some Jedi before and after who haven't been as - or more - powerful.

Oh, and Exanda, I doubt I'll take the advice from a person who thinks that Revan is the most powerful Sith Lord ever, lol.

Originally posted by Escape81
I've PM'ed Ush. I told him about the situation and asked him to look into it, which I'm sure that he will. But, back to the argument:

a. I want it made clear that I never said nor implied that the PT Jedi Order's members were intrinsically more powerful than any other Jedi we've ever featured. However, given that their number standed at 10,000 or so - and that they spawned the prodigies such as: Yoda, Mace, Dooku, Anakin, Obi-Wan, Depa, and so forth - they would be considered, as a whole, the prime of the Jedi, coordinating with Lucas's statements.

b. That doesn't mean that every single one of their number is more powerful. Aside from Yoda, Windu, and Dooku, I'm not aware of any PT Jedi who could hope to contend with the likes of Exar Kun or the other former Jedi. However, only a select few are to be considered more powerful than the PT generation.

c. What exactly leads you to believe that the "golden age" is to be translated differently for the Sith and Jedi? Modern day usage of that phrase indicates both size and power. Why should it be different for the Jedi, in Star Wars? But that isn't to say that there aren't some Sith and some Jedi before and after who haven't been as - or more - powerful.

Oh, and Exanda, I doubt I'll take the advice from a person who thinks that Revan is the most powerful Sith Lord ever, lol.


I agree with you on everything except C and I'll explain why. I have always had the belief that the GAOTS and GAOTJ are two different things. For the Sith, they are all about knowledge and power, which is why their golden age was the apex of both knowledge and power. This is all they care about.

Now for Jedi, their "balance of the force" is peace. Notice how in GAOTS Memit Nadill stated "I will turn off by lightsaber and hope I never have to use it again in battle". This states that a Jedi's ideal reality is peace. Jedi don't vie for power nor have a thirst or quest for knowledge(which leads to the darkside). They maintain peace and order in the galaxy, therefore their golden age is translated differently than the sith.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I agree with you on everything except C and I'll explain why. I have always had the belief that the GAOTS and GAOTJ are two different things. For the Sith, they are all about knowledge and power, which is why their golden age was the apex of both knowledge and power. This is all they care about.

Now for Jedi, their "balance of the force" is peace. Notice how in GAOTS Memit Nadill stated "I will turn off by lightsaber and hope I never have to use it again in battle". This states that a Jedi's ideal reality is peace. Jedi don't vie for power nor have a thirst or quest for knowledge(which leads to the darkside). They maintain peace and order in the galaxy, therefore their golden age is translated differently than the sith.

Yes, but since when does "the golden age" mean "everything they care about"?

huh? I don't believe I understood the question. My point is the golden age means two different things for the sith and the Jedi.

Originally posted by Escape81
I've PM'ed Ush. I told him about the situation and asked him to look into it, which I'm sure that he will. But, back to the argument:

No, you won't. You're actions are irrelevant.



Oh, shut up. You like octopuses erogenous zones. That's obvious.



SHUT UP! You make me sick!



I don't like you!

Why don't you move to a hotel closer to the sea? Or prefferably in it?

'c. What exactly leads you to believe that the "golden age" is to be translated differently for the Sith and Jedi?.'

Their goals. The sith seek power while the jedi seek peace.

Yea I just said that, and Swirly girl, what are you smoking?

CTHULHU! AI'LA!

uhm... Yea

dark horse should just make a comic that is all about what would happen if all of the sith got together and had a free-for-all.
then the madness will end!

Originally posted by Swirly Girl
No, you won't. You're actions are irrelevant.



Oh, shut up. You like octopuses erogenous zones. That's obvious.



SHUT UP! You make me sick!



I don't like you!

Why don't you move to a hotel closer to the sea? Or prefferably in it? 'You are' actions are irrelevant? HAHA! LOLz U MADE THE SPELLING ERROR!

Originally posted by Escape81


Oh, and Exanda, I doubt I'll take the advice from a person who thinks that Revan is the most powerful Sith Lord ever, lol.

I only want (key term want) to believe that because Revan has decent fashion sense for a Sith Lord

Originally posted by Escape81
Let me make this abundantly clear to you all. If it doesn't work, I can have Ush come here and reiterate it. Once George Lucas gives off a statement regarding Star Wars, it is irrefutable. You cannot debate against it.

His opinion is the Star Wars law. Your opinions, Nebaris, are insignificant next to his, useless, and completely wrong if it directly defies Lucas's words and authority. As does mine, or anyone else's.

So, if he stated the PT to be the "prime of the Jedi" (which he did), then it is a cold, hard fact. You are not Lucas. Do not presume to possess the intellect, the authority, or the legal right to attempt to refute one of Lucas's statements. You don't possess any of the three.

He does not have to take the EU "into consideration" for it to become a fact in the EU. Considering how the PT Jedi Order is the only one we've seen in the movies at all, it obliterates your notion that it counts for "just the movies".

Lucas still has full authority over the movies and the Expanded Universe.

If you don't like it, sorry. Your opinions mean jack.

Awwww, Escape guess what you did?

http://i.xanga.com/closeted_drag_queen/t/You%20Make%20Kitty%20Scared.jpg

Lucas already stated that the expanded universe is not what he deals with. That does NOT mean that figures in realms other than your "vaunted PT" are weak.

Otherwise argue with the fact that DN Luke, and his order were weaker than the one headed by Yoda. And that is a flat out lie if anything.

DN Luke: Able to manipulate the gravitational field possessed by a black hole. Destroyed an army of Vong.
Kyp Durron: Called ligthning from the sky to annihilate a sith worm. Killed a Vong Slayer
DN Kyle Katarn: Battlemaster who destroyed a figure that was nearly darth vader's strength, and also killed a Dark Jedi that was strong enough to give Luke a hard time.

Perhaps it should be reiterated to you what these figures were capable of doing before you so brazenly state that the PT somehow PWNS all, because it is teh GOLden AgE!11!

Originally posted by zephiel7
Otherwise argue with the fact that DN Luke, and his order were weaker than the one headed by Yoda. And that is a flat out lie if anything.

DN Luke: Able to manipulate the gravitational field possessed by a black hole. Destroyed an army of Vong.
Kyp Durron: Called ligthning from the sky to annihilate a sith worm. Killed a Vong Slayer
DN Kyle Katarn: Battlemaster who destroyed a figure that was nearly darth vader's strength, and also killed a Dark Jedi that was strong enough to give Luke a hard time.

Perhaps it should be reiterated to you what these figures were capable of doing before you so brazenly state that the PT somehow PWNS all, because it is teh GOLden AgE!11!

It's the Jedi Order as a whole, not just a few select people.

that is the funniest picture I have ever seen.

Originally posted by Advent
It's the Jedi Order as a whole, not just a few select people.

Thank you. Idiots like Zephiel make me wonder...

but isn't that cat so damn cute?

Originally posted by Escape81
Thank you. Idiots like Zephiel make me wonder...

Wonder just what if Watto met Darth Sidious. How would the Star Wars universe as we know it be affected?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
but isn't that cat so damn cute?

Obviously you don't know how much, or is it that you do know, but don't want to admit it?

lol! Yea i have a cat and it looks so cute when I put it in the dryer and it bends its ears back. This picture reminded me of those times..

It depends if you're a lesbian who finds Natalie Portman hot. I personally would take her soul in that movie, until she shaved her head.

I would recommend V for Vendetta. Hugo Weaving as V is an excellent performance. The storyline is very topical in today's world climate and the action is good.

But thats my opinion

Jedi Order mention as Prime of the Jedi, later said to be the strongest? Check. Get over it: Lucas's word is law, Exanda and you mean nothing next to him. You could argue with JRR Tolkien all you like, but the one ring was impossible to destroy willingly.

And moveover, GL said Lucas had Anakin's exact potential-potential which he's obviously reached by now.

You mean Luke. And Luke does have Anakin's exact potential but he will never be Anakin.

You're right. He's much stronger

Not if youre talking about a full potential Anakin.

Except Lucas said Luke has the same potential

Ok, and Anakin is the chosen one.

So what? Luke's the son of the Chosen one. Lucas said they have the same potential. Meaning they have the same potential, meaning they;d be as strong as one another

You do realize that same potential doesnt equate to same strength right?

You're saying this like it means something. Potential means they could become as strong as one another. Luke is what Anakin could have become.

And no, same potential does equate to the probability of same strength

Yes, probability, that's all that is.

And Luke's reached his potential.

Argument over

Considering the fact that we are arguing a FULL Potential Anakin, you once again lack the debating skills and reading comprehension to continue.

And current Luke is Full Potential Luke.
End of story

May I ask what the exact quote is?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Jedi Order mention as Prime of the Jedi, later said to be the strongest? Check. Get over it: Lucas's word is law, Exanda and you mean nothing next to him. You could argue with JRR Tolkien all you like, but the one ring was impossible to destroy willingly.

And moveover, GL said Lucas had Anakin's exact potential-potential which he's obviously reached by now.

Get bent kid, my word is law. Deal with it

And your matury, credibility and intelligence seem to have taken a drop.

Tsk tsk

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And your matury, credibility and intelligence seem to have taken a drop.

Tsk tsk

You may think your right kid, but on matters where EU material is concerned, Lucas' comments on the "Prime of the Jedi" are infact void.

He has said he does not deal with the EU, which should really be enough for anyone who generally cares about this kind of garbage, but to reinforce it, this statement is both too vague to really carry any kind of weight behind, even if Lucas says it himself. The point of Lucas' word being law was argued alot, even before you arrived here.

You may think Lucas word is law but Lucas' word is, as I have said, void in this discussion. You really have no reason for questioning it, its genuine common sense. And maturity is spelt...well like this maturity.

Except Lucas's comments to Star Wars are higher than anything else. If he says something, the EU takes it and they have. Oh, and Lucas has dealt with the EU on sveeral occasions. He said he doesn't keep up with it, there's a difference. Last I checked, he threw in several nods to the Clone Wars EU. Statement is 'too vague?' I suppose if you don't know what 'prime' means, it would be.

And a mock at a spelling error, how original and inventive! Oh, the lack of two letters undermine my entire argument, woe is me!

Lucas has said it. The rest of SW picks up on it. Three words: Deal with it.

Except Lucas's comments to Star Wars are higher than anything else. If he says something, the EU takes it and they have. Oh, and Lucas has dealt with the EU on sveeral occasions. He said he doesn't keep up with it, there's a difference. Last I checked, he threw in several nods to the Clone Wars EU. Statement is 'too vague?' I suppose if you don't know what 'prime' means, it would be.

I didn't debate whether Lucas' word should be higher than everything else; yes when he's talking sense his opinions usually do come pretty high on the ladder, but in the discussion which took place in this thread, they were completely irrevlevant.
As we all know he only deals in certain parts of the EU, the material that touches his films usually, and everything else he only only has to nod his head at. If Lucas was so adamant that the Jedi of the prequel Era were the strongest ever, as most seem to believe "Prime of the Jedi" is a reference to, he would not allow any publications and material which contradict that statement. Funnily enough, there is a bulk of material that shows Jedi from other eras doing all kinds of rubbish that woud seem to suggest that they were much more stronger, more versatile and more influential than the Jedi before the Clone Wars era.

And a mock at a spelling error, how original and inventive! Oh, the lack of two letters undermine my entire argument, woe is me!

Did you spell several wrong to make some kind of point there?

Lucas has said it. The rest of SW picks up on it. Three words: Deal with it.

Kid, you deal with it, I'm right, I know it doesn't happen alot, but this was something that happened time and time again and believe me, its not a debate, you have nothing to fall back on. Lucas has said it was the "Prime of the Jedi" which if you don't understand how unclear this is, allow me to clarify.

Prime could be said to be the period of greatest prosperity or productivity. Now just to help you a little, lets put this into other contexts such as the Roman Empire.

The Roman Empire,the golden age if you will, at its prime had a continent spanning trade empire, where poetry, culture and entertainment flourished, practices that had more of an effect on the rest of the world than any other.

That does not mean that it was the strongest age of the Roman Empire, the conquesting had ceased, the legions weren't as formidable as they were, they suffered defeats and were eventually called back to Rome.

Now to change this into the context of science fiction, Jedi may have been at there prime during the years before the Clone Wars began, but this does not mean they were the greatest warriors in the history of the Order. The golden age of the Jedi did not mean that all Jedi were amazing warriors of legendary status (they all died against droids for one for heavens sake!) but that the ideas, the concepts, teachings of the Jedi were superior to all that had come before. It would have been the prime of the Jedi teachings.

Considering the nature and religion of the Jedi Order, it could well be that it was the golden age of pacifism within the Order, the galaxy and Republic at relative peace. No doubt, there were heroes and legendary status rivalling Jedi of the past, but compared to feats of jedi long dead, it was nothing.

Uncle George, deals with the movies of Star Wars, yet also gives a heads up to all material that is published with a Star Wars name on it.
He thinks of Star Wars in the context of the films (the last three of which were dreadful) and everything else takes a back seat to his morbid creations(referring to the PT there). Now its difficult to see what he really thinks of Jedi, but as he used all basic binary oppositions and characters in his creation of the The Star Wars screenplay, we have a couple of different views of what they may mean to him. Old Ben, was the archetypal wizard character, with many likenesses, I hope you notice, to Gandalf, Aslan, and Brian Blessed in a skirt in Flash Gordon. Now for a good 20 years we all believed this is what Jedi was, a true Jedi; a cryptic OAP with a knack for finding trouble. Now Old Ben deals in peace, justice in the galaxy, and more than a little hint of anti-social-darwinism. Now what do you think Old Ben would say if you asked him about the golden age of the Jedi? Would he say the golden age of the Jedi ocurred when seemingly every generation of Jedi seemed to harbour a twisted individual of Exar Kun like power? Or would he say the golden age was a time of peace and harmony in the galaxy, where the Jedi teachings rarely led the students astray?

Think about, and no little immature answers.

Originally posted by exanda kane
Except Lucas's comments to Star Wars are higher than anything else. If he says something, the EU takes it and they have. Oh, and Lucas has dealt with the EU on sveeral occasions. He said he doesn't keep up with it, there's a difference. Last I checked, he threw in several nods to the Clone Wars EU. Statement is 'too vague?' I suppose if you don't know what 'prime' means, it would be.

I didn't debate whether Lucas' word should be higher than everything else; yes when he's talking sense his opinions usually do come pretty high on the ladder, but in the discussion which took place in this thread, they were completely irrevlevant.
As we all know he only deals in certain parts of the EU, the material that touches his films usually, and everything else he only only has to nod his head at. If Lucas was so adamant that the Jedi of the prequel Era were the strongest ever, as most seem to believe "Prime of the Jedi" is a reference to, he would not allow any publications and material which contradict that statement. Funnily enough, there is a bulk of material that shows Jedi from other eras doing all kinds of rubbish that woud seem to suggest that they were much more stronger, more versatile and more influential than the Jedi before the Clone Wars era.

And a mock at a spelling error, how original and inventive! Oh, the lack of two letters undermine my entire argument, woe is me!

Did you spell several wrong to make some kind of point there?

Lucas has said it. The rest of SW picks up on it. Three words: Deal with it.

Kid, you deal with it, I'm right, I know it doesn't happen alot, but this was something that happened time and time again and believe me, its not a debate, you have nothing to fall back on. Lucas has said it was the "Prime of the Jedi" which if you don't understand how unclear this is, allow me to clarify.

Prime could be said to be the period of greatest prosperity or productivity. Now just to help you a little, lets put this into other contexts such as the Roman Empire.

The Roman Empire,the golden age if you will, at its prime had a continent spanning trade empire, where poetry, culture and entertainment flourished, practices that had more of an effect on the rest of the world than any other.

That does not mean that it was the strongest age of the Roman Empire, the conquesting had ceased, the legions weren't as formidable as they were, they suffered defeats and were eventually called back to Rome.

Now to change this into the context of science fiction, Jedi may have been at there prime during the years before the Clone Wars began, but this does not mean they were the greatest warriors in the history of the Order. The golden age of the Jedi did not mean that all Jedi were amazing warriors of legendary status (they all died against droids for one for heavens sake!) but that the ideas, the concepts, teachings of the Jedi were superior to all that had come before. It would have been the prime of the Jedi teachings.

Considering the nature and religion of the Jedi Order, it could well be that it was the golden age of pacifism within the Order, the galaxy and Republic at relative peace. No doubt, there were heroes and legendary status rivalling Jedi of the past, but compared to feats of jedi long dead, it was nothing.

Uncle George, deals with the movies of Star Wars, yet also gives a heads up to all material that is published with a Star Wars name on it.
He thinks of Star Wars in the context of the films (the last three of which were dreadful) and everything else takes a back seat to his morbid creations(referring to the PT there). Now its difficult to see what he really thinks of Jedi, but as he used all basic binary oppositions and characters in his creation of the The Star Wars screenplay, we have a couple of different views of what they may mean to him. Old Ben, was the archetypal wizard character, with many likenesses, I hope you notice, to Gandalf, Aslan, and Brian Blessed in a skirt in Flash Gordon. Now for a good 20 years we all believed this is what Jedi was, a true Jedi; a cryptic OAP with a knack for finding trouble. Now Old Ben deals in peace, justice in the galaxy, and more than a little hint of anti-social-darwinism. Now what do you think Old Ben would say if you asked him about the golden age of the Jedi? Would he say the golden age of the Jedi ocurred when seemingly every generation of Jedi seemed to harbour a twisted individual of Exar Kun like power? Or would he say the golden age was a time of peace and harmony in the galaxy, where the Jedi teachings rarely led the students astray?

Think about, and no little immature answers.

Excellent post if I may say so myself

Nice!!

Beautiful post expanda Kane.. I would like to see someone refute that.

We have fanboys of a user now? That's really sad. "YAY4YYAY!!!!!!!!///ONE?//!!!!!!!!!!", "GoOoOOooOOoO EX4NDA".

To exanda: Big ****ing deal. Lucas said it was the prime and golden age of the Jedi. The EU implemented that. AOTC novelization? ROTS novelization? Power of the Jedi? Wanna argue against them too? AOTc novelization makes a little mention of the Jedi order being at its strongest, which worries Yoda that they've gotten too complacent. ROTs novelization mentions the Jedi order is toppled at its strongest, Power of the Jedi says much the same

So now the PT is the strongest era of Jedi.

Fallacious reasoning aside, now. I'm gonna take the canon above anything you say.

So, no, you're blatantly wrong. Notice Lucas made the reference to fighting?

Sorry, pal. There goes your argument.

lol.. Lightsnake, we've already discussed that as a WHOLE, the Jedi of the PT are the best, but as a WHOLE. This means nothing in terms of individual users.

I'm an Exanda Kane fanboy.

Yoda? Mace Kit? Agen? Saesee? Anakin? Five of the best swordsmen the Jedi Order had ever seen? And Depa, and Cin...

those're some big name individuals...and Dooku, if we count him...Qui-Gon as well...Tholme and Quinlan Vos...Luminara and Shaak Ti, Obi-wan, the top Foresu Master the order'd seen...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yoda? Mace Kit? Agen? Saesee? Anakin? Five of the best swordsmen the Jedi Order had ever seen? And Depa, and Cin...

those're some big name individuals...and Dooku, if we count him...Qui-Gon as well...Tholme and Quinlan Vos...Luminara and Shaak Ti, Obi-wan, the top Foresu Master the order'd seen...


And that's why I said as a whole the PT Jedi are better, as a WHOLE. We can argue the likes of the NJO being individually better than the majority of the PT Jedi, we can do the same with TOTJ..

Except the top of the Pt>The top of the tOTJ

Considering the top TOTJ were Sith, unless of course you want to argue that the likes of Nadd, Kun, and Ulic were below Windu, Yoda, and...Anakin? or DookU?

considering they were, there's no issue. Unless you can form a coherent argument Nai hasn't torn down?
So, the strongest Jedi vs. the TOTJ Sith whose claims to fame...defeating Jedi weaker than them anyways.

Call me when you can form an argument Nai and I haven't taken limb from limb.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Considering the top TOTJ were Sith, unless of course you want to argue that the likes of Nadd, Kun, and Ulic were below Windu, Yoda, and...Anakin? or DookU?

You don't know if Nadd is powerful or not. And we've already decided Yoda would beat Kun.

Yeah, DS...it's been discussed on this forum. That's an argument you enjoy.

To exanda: Big ****ing deal. Lucas said it was the prime and golden age of the Jedi. The EU implemented that. AOTC novelization? ROTS novelization? Power of the Jedi? Wanna argue against them too? AOTc novelization makes a little mention of the Jedi order being at its strongest, which worries Yoda that they've gotten too complacent. ROTs novelization mentions the Jedi order is toppled at its strongest, Power of the Jedi says much the same.

Strongest eh? How possibly would there be a strongest bunch of warriors in a time of peace? Care to explain that when those "warriors" have no internal struggle to compared to other eras?
You can use as many titles of LA authorised publications if you want, they are irrelevant again because they are too vague and contradict with the very foundations of what it is to be a Jedi. The RotS says that, but I believe the way you are interpreting it is wrong. Now don't get me wrong, Star Wars is more than open to intepritation. We can't enjoy the saga if we just take what Lucas says to heart everytime we find a loophole, a plot gap or a bad script. If you had read my post I hope you can have the wisdom to replace the word "strongest" with terms such as golden age and prime. It may be a stronger term and not as vague, but considering just how many aspects the Jedi consider important in life, it looses alot of its weight. In fact Yoda's statement, or lets not get ahead of ourselves, Matthew Stover's, completely contradicts your point, and merely strengthens mine. If the term stronger refers to the strength of such Jedi as a group, then it clearly does not mean battle prowless and ability (don't get me wrong, there were a few powerful Jedi around). The Jedi grew complacent because there teachings were at there peak, there was no where else for them to go apart from down and out.
The idea of what it meant to be one with "The Force" and other ideas about how it is best to help it flow and create balance. The Jedi were so enarmoured by there teachings that they sat and waited while war covered the galaxy, and could do nothing against a threat they felt and percieved to be Sith. They were so patient and wise, they thought it better not to act, hence why they all get cut down in battle and betrayal.
Now other era of the Jedi where phrases like the golden age of the jedi order can be used are times when the peace and galaxy are in a fragile state. For example, the Exar Kun war, where the jedi often forgot there teachings and really came into there own. Another 40 years down the line and the events of the Mandalorian War and Jedi Civil War occured. This kept the Jedi on there toes, they may have faced catastrophe after catastrophe, but they dealt with them and saved the galaxy with the help of Jedi of tremendous power. Years before the Exar Kun war, the Jedi faced Freedon Nadd, and this yet again, kept the Jedi on there toes. As far as battle experience and strength goes, these times beat the Prequel Trilogy hands down. But for times when the strength of the jedi teachings was greatest, that are far inferior. All those heroes of old wars often featured Jedi who had learned to use/or regained the force as adults, and still they managed to triumph against the Sith and other evils. There was no complacency whatsoever, there was no time for it, and the Jedi Order never fell, not for more than 5 years only.

So, no, you're blatantly wrong. Notice Lucas made the reference to fighting?

Now this is the part thats been answered way back in the post. Lucas, when he said that, was referring to his films. Now from an aesthetic point of view, out of the PT and OT, who are the stronger Jedi? Yes! All the little kiddies (probably Lucas too) think the PT has stronger Jedi, especially when you see Alec Guiness lugging his saber around.

Sorry, pal. There goes your argument.

References to EU titles and vague quotes from Lucas are no match for good old common sense at your side kid

Yoda? Mace? The Jedi who didn't devote themselves to the dioplomats' form? The Jedi who had 'spent years training themselves to refight the last war?' Sorr,y, three EU sources call the PT times the 'strongest'...what does strength mean? Right, could it be you know nothing of what you're trying to say? The PT era faced numerous fights...and by the way: A fully trained TOTJ Jedi was killes by three bandits, IMPRESSIVE! Oh, and the Order never fell? Jedi civil War, pal, nearly tore the Order apart...they refused to gof ight the Mandos...in fact, KTOOR even called them complacent!

Oh, and the Jedi never faced Freedon Nad.d..and the Jedi of the PT faced just as many conflicts in a shorte space of time. The Clone Wars were described as by LUCAS HIMSELF as one of the most dire conflicts the galaxy had ever seen...so the PT Jedi generations had seen...how many conflicts? More than the TOTJ Jedi.
Sorry, but your lack of logic and knowledge does you in, Exanda...learn about the PT conflicts...Stark Hyperspace war, Yinchorri, Kibh Jeen, Jensaari, Set Harth, Volfe Karkko, Nikkos Tyrris, Alana, the Ngihtisisters.

Sorry, but three sources take you down on the issue, so your opinion means nothing

and sorry, but Lucas saif 'Of the Jedi' and the EU's clarified, or did you ignore that part? Of COURSE you did, it'd hurt your argument!

Read the sources, learn about what you're trying to talk about.

You're wrong. the AOTC and ROTs novelizations and the Power of the Jedi sourcebooks says the Jedi were the strongest during the PT, the best lightsaber duelists the Jedi order had produced lived during the PT times.

Too bad, EU sources state this. They're canon, it means.

And thus, canon>You

Originally posted by Lightsnake
considering they were, there's no issue. Unless you can form a coherent argument Nai hasn't torn down?
So, the strongest Jedi vs. the TOTJ Sith whose claims to fame...defeating Jedi weaker than them anyways.

Call me when you can form an argument Nai and I haven't taken limb from limb.

Considering the fact that I have destroyed over 90% of your arguments, please don't start with "me and Nai", since Nai is the only reason you haven't been verbally raped every single time you post..

It's funny. I wonder how many other members of this forum hold this opinion.
Your debate method is to repeat everything ad nauseum, ignore the canon and insult people.

Oh, three EU canon sources and Lucas for my argument, thanks!

Originally posted by Advent
You don't know if Nadd is powerful or not. And we've already decided Yoda would beat Kun.


Oy.. How has it been decided? I love it how on this forum something has "already been decided". Didn't you guys say a year ago it was "decided" that the ancient sith could chug stars? As I recall, the Yoda vs. Kun battle could go either way..

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It's funny. I wonder how many other members of this forum hold this opinion.
Your debate method is to repeat everything ad nauseum, ignore the canon and insult people


Considering the fact that I've been here less time than you, that I haven't heard a single decent argument from you(maybe 1), and considering the fact that these "other members" that think so highly of your arguments, don't exist. And please stop spewing out logical fallacies as if you knew what they were.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yoda? Mace? The Jedi who didn't devote themselves to the dioplomats' form? The Jedi who had 'spent years training themselves to refight the last war?' Sorr,y, three EU sources call the PT times the 'strongest'...what does strength mean? Right, could it be you know nothing of what you're trying to say? The PT era faced numerous fights...and by the way: A fully trained TOTJ Jedi was killes by three bandits, IMPRESSIVE! Oh, and the Order never fell? Jedi civil War, pal, nearly tore the Order apart...they refused to gof ight the Mandos...in fact, KTOOR even called them complacent!

Oh, and the Jedi never faced Freedon Nad.d..and the Jedi of the PT faced just as many conflicts in a shorte space of time. The Clone Wars were described as by LUCAS HIMSELF as one of the most dire conflicts the galaxy had ever seen...so the PT Jedi generations had seen...how many conflicts? More than the TOTJ Jedi.
Sorry, but your lack of logic and knowledge does you in, Exanda...learn about the PT conflicts...Stark Hyperspace war, Yinchorri, Kibh Jeen, Jensaari, Set Harth, Volfe Karkko, Nikkos Tyrris, Alana, the Ngihtisisters.

Sorry, but three sources take you down on the issue, so your opinion means nothing

and sorry, but Lucas saif 'Of the Jedi' and the EU's clarified, or did you ignore that part? Of COURSE you did, it'd hurt your argument!

Read the sources, learn about what you're trying to talk about.

You're wrong. the AOTC and ROTs novelizations and the Power of the Jedi sourcebooks says the Jedi were the strongest during the PT, the best lightsaber duelists the Jedi order had produced lived during the PT times.

Too bad, EU sources state this. They're canon, it means.

And thus, canon>You

There are so many things wrong with your posts, I can't help but chuckle.

Just stay out of this.

Three canon sources state it, plus Lucas. Probably more if I looked hard enough.

Therefore, your argument goes down the drain, sorry.

and for the record, thanks for admitting you can't respond to any of the points

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Just stay out of this.

Three canon sources state it, plus Lucas. Probably more if I looked hard enough.

Therefore, your argument goes down the drain, sorry.

and for the record, thanks for admitting you can't respond to any of the points

Lightsnake for your own sake I suggest you stop posting and let Nai and Sama argue for you, but if you want I can show your poor logical skill again, as I always do.

I suggest YOU stop and just stop arguing.

You cannot debate. You just insult, repeat and ignore. Those are your holy grail. Just enough, okay? Neither me, Nai nor Sama can stand you.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yoda? Mace? The Jedi who didn't devote themselves to the dioplomats' form? The Jedi who had 'spent years training themselves to refight the last war?' Sorr,y, three EU sources call the PT times the 'strongest'...what does strength mean? Right, could it be you know nothing of what you're trying to say? The PT era faced numerous fights...and by the way: A fully trained TOTJ Jedi was killes by three bandits, IMPRESSIVE! Oh, and the Order never fell? Jedi civil War, pal, nearly tore the Order apart...they refused to gof ight the Mandos...in fact, KTOOR even called them complacent!

Aside from Yoda, who is equal to Kun or possibly better, you have Windu, Dooku, and Anakin. And again lightsnake sorry to break it to you but the TOTJ era was a MUCH more martial time than PT, up until at LEAST the very end of AOTC, so your point is nonexistent. And again you fail to differentiate between "prime of the jedi" as a whole, and "every PT Jedi is greater than every TOTJ Jedi". Lets see what other stupidity you included. Omgz 1 TOTJ JEdi was killed by three bandits, oh no! Random PT Jedi were killed by blaster fire, one was killed by 1 storm trooper shooting his plane down, with your ridiculous logic that makes them weak too? Please, stop embarassing yourself. And lets see what KOTOR calling the Jedi Order complacent has anything to do with anything. Oh wait, you conveniently forgot that there were how many members on the council? 20? How many Jedi went to fight with Revan and Malak? Thousands.. Thank you for playing, come again.

Oh, and the Jedi never faced Freedon Nad.d..and the Jedi of the PT faced just as many conflicts in a shorte space of time. The Clone Wars were described as by LUCAS HIMSELF as one of the most dire conflicts the galaxy had ever seen...so the PT Jedi generations had seen...how many conflicts? More than the TOTJ Jedi.
Sorry, but your lack of logic and knowledge does you in, Exanda...learn about the PT conflicts...Stark Hyperspace war, Yinchorri, Kibh Jeen, Jensaari, Set Harth, Volfe Karkko, Nikkos Tyrris, Alana, the Ngihtisisters.

Gee, one of the MOST dire conflicts.. Does that mean the most? Not even close, so your interpretations make anybody with common sense laugh. And sorry lightsnake, during TOTJ there was the uprising, the Mandalorian War, the Sith War, and the Jedi Civil War, which completely destroys your argument about the PT Jedi having more conflicts. So before you start talking about lack of logic, make sure you don't look like a complete fool whose arguments are always destroyed.

And so aside from begging random authors for quotes, misinterpretating quotes, and complaining, you don't really have much debating skills do you?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I suggest YOU stop and just stop arguing.

You cannot debate. You just insult, repeat and ignore. Those are your holy grail. Just enough, okay? Neither me, Nai nor Sama can stand you.


Considering I CAN debate, I have PROVEN to debate, you HAVENT, Nai and Sama have no problem with me, I'd say this is just about the end of the line for you. Now if I want some angry social outcast making shit up to make himself feel better, I'll go to the local high school and pick a fight. You may stop crying now child.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yoda? Mace? The Jedi who didn't devote themselves to the dioplomats' form? The Jedi who had 'spent years training themselves to refight the last war?' Sorr,y, three EU sources call the PT times the 'strongest'...what does strength mean? Right, could it be you know nothing of what you're trying to say? The PT era faced numerous fights...and by the way: A fully trained TOTJ Jedi was killes by three bandits, IMPRESSIVE! Oh, and the Order never fell? Jedi civil War, pal, nearly tore the Order apart...they refused to gof ight the Mandos...in fact, KTOOR even called them complacent!

Oh, and the Jedi never faced Freedon Nad.d..and the Jedi of the PT faced just as many conflicts in a shorte space of time. The Clone Wars were described as by LUCAS HIMSELF as one of the most dire conflicts the galaxy had ever seen...so the PT Jedi generations had seen...how many conflicts? More than the TOTJ Jedi.
Sorry, but your lack of logic and knowledge does you in, Exanda...learn about the PT conflicts...Stark Hyperspace war, Yinchorri, Kibh Jeen, Jensaari, Set Harth, Volfe Karkko, Nikkos Tyrris, Alana, the Ngihtisisters.

Sorry, but three sources take you down on the issue, so your opinion means nothing

and sorry, but Lucas saif 'Of the Jedi' and the EU's clarified, or did you ignore that part? Of COURSE you did, it'd hurt your argument!

Read the sources, learn about what you're trying to talk about.

You're wrong. the AOTC and ROTs novelizations and the Power of the Jedi sourcebooks says the Jedi were the strongest during the PT, the best lightsaber duelists the Jedi order had produced lived during the PT times.

Too bad, EU sources state this. They're canon, it means.

And thus, canon>You

Stop trying to feel attacked kid. You are wrong but I don't think you know it. You saying I know nothing of what I am talking about? That's just wrong. If I wanted or had the time to go into the details, I would, but I really do not have the incentive too.

The PT era faced little more than an over confident pirate before the Clone Wars, and by that time, there was already little hope left for the Jedi. The stark hyperspace war? It was a bloody skirmish! Nightsisters? Big deal. Jensaari were a walkover. The PT Jedi almost failed at menial tasks.
They'd become too complacent, they fell from the highest place they could be, when there teachings were strongest and most potent. By the time the Clone Wars arrived, Jedi were little more than negotiators, which believe it nor not kid, was one of the goals of a Jedi, to avoid conflict. Now for this very reason among others, the years before the clone wars are named the prime of the Jedi.

Lets remove the science fiction part of this point ok, I fear the sugar may be causing your little out pour of angst already, lets remove it to say..the golden age of Rome? Totally with your permission of course...

Well Rome had grown a little complacent, its Empire had stopped expanding, its arts were the pride of its culture that stretched from Britain to the Middle East, one of the earliest forms of alphabet began to be taught to more than just the upper classes (I'd like you to link this to the jedi teachings if you can). Things had grown complacent. Rome fell from the inside. The pressures of omnious disturbences on the borders of the Empire provoked doubt at the heart of the Empire. Rome did infact collapse at the peak of its culture, when all the possible energy within the Empire had been used to the fullest.

Does that sound familiar? Of course it doesn't to you because you aren't listening.

The Jedi Civil War did not kill the Jedi, nor did the time in which sects of assasins hunted the Order through the force, both events wiped out alot of Jedi, but at leats a hundred jedi still lived with Revans "reformation" and and the Jedi Council survived for a good amount of time before the Exile appeared. When the Jedi Order was kept on its toes it survived, when it grew complacent, during its golden age, it fell hard. These are facts you cannot ignore, without hiding behind some drab book with a b-movie plot.

I'm sorry Lightsnake but if you cannot concede any points whatsoever when talking about a damn science fiction saga then I really feel for you kid

Correct, don't argue with lightsnake, it's a joke.

Prove it. I can think of five conflicts within two DECADES as compared to tOTJ...as Nai said: did you see any fully trained knights getting punked by THREE BANDITS? How was it more martial, I'm curious? And how many Jedi were in the clone Wars? Ten thousand? Thanks. Oh, and Jedi in the PT in Order 66? They were caught totally off guard. Y'know as opposed to a Jedi facing them with his saber ready for them-Hi, Andur! Twenty council members? Sorry, I saw four on Dantooine. And council members mean anything now? Number wise?

The PT era was STILL stronger as a whole.

And yeah, one of the most dire conflicts...drew in the entire galaxy. More than you can say for the Great Sith War. Or the Mandalorian War.The Mandalorian war was fought on the outskirts.

Oh, and the PT Jedi haaad....Kibh Jeen, Volfe Karkko, the Bpfasshi uprising, the Clone Wars, the Ynchorri, Stark Hyperspace, The Jensaari, numerous assaults around the galaxy, including Annoo, the Mandalorian uprising...not to mention the Sith throughout the centuries as Dooku said.
Sorry, but it looks like this just takes the TOTJ Jedi's conflicts down a notch.

ROTs novelization even says the Jedi were well trained as fighters as a whole but spent too much time training to fight the Last War.

More martial era? Then how did the Jedi Civil War catch them totally off guard? Oh, and if you want to use the Great Hyperspace War, I can safetly use Ruusan and the Light and Darkness war...AKA: The culmination of a thousand years of warfare.

You're hilarious lightsnake, I'll be back to finish you off(in a non sexual way).

Originally posted by Lightsnake


Oh, and the PT Jedi haaad....Kibh Jeen, Volfe Karkko, the Bpfasshi uprising, the Clone Wars, the Ynchorri, Stark Hyperspace, The Jensaari, numerous assaults around the galaxy, including Annoo, the Mandalorian uprising...not to mention the Sith throughout the centuries as Dooku said.
S

I'm totally sorry there kid, but that point is simply void. Consdering the amount actually published about the Prequel era compared to the times of Exar Kun, that is only an average amount of conflicts, and even these wars were only small compared to earlier conflicts. Keep it to the movies and the material George Lucas actually touches.

Sorry, Exanda, but...you're a liar:
The Jedi faced a Mandalorian uprising, three Dark Jedi uprisings, the Yinchorri, Stark Hyperspace wars, the uprising of Annoo, Kibh Jeen AND Set Harth...Volfe Karkko required four council members to best centuries past. Oh, and the Morgukai, can't forget the Morgukai.

Mace Windu had killed 'countless evil beings', Yoda's triumphs against the Dark were 'legion'

Three canon sources call the PT the STRONGEST time

Sorry, Exanda, but you went down. Hard. Canon> You and the canon is those books. And that sourcebook. Lucas, too, sorry!

When you can argue with canon, come back. Sorry, but those 'drab books' are canon...in fact, as novelizations? More canon than KOTOR...nice try, attacking the actual source like that. Sorry, but they're called the strongest, when the mightiest Jedi and some of the best duelists the order had produced lived.

Youw ere saying, Exanda? Something humorous I think.

And Sexy? Go on: Ask Nai and Sama how they feel about you. What'd Nai say about you when you two argued in the Kun vs. Yoda thread? Go on, ask them.

Your debating is a joke, mate. You insult, repeat things ad nauseum and use nothing but ad hominem fallacies. It's rritating and it's gotten old. You just try to discredit the source and it's gotten really old. You're incapable of backing yourself up.

Oh, look at this now, Exanda! Getting all defensive when your BS about there being so few conflicts is shot to hell?

Ok, guess there were never any conflicts in the PT era...Lucas never touched those. And those conflicts were described as massive and costly, thanks!

And Exar Kun's spectacular war of a series of terrorist attacks was brilliant, wasn't it? Prove up.

In fact, I'll prove up now: AOTC and ROTS novelizations. There go your arguments

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Sorry, Exanda, but...you're a liar:
The Jedi faced a Mandalorian uprising, three Dark Jedi uprisings, the Yinchorri, Stark Hyperspace wars, the uprising of Annoo, Kibh Jeen AND Set Harth...Volfe Karkko required four council members to best centuries past. Oh, and the Morgukai, can't forget the Morgukai.

Mace Windu had killed 'countless evil beings', Yoda's triumphs against the Dark were 'legion'

Three canon sources call the PT the STRONGEST time

Sorry, Exanda, but you went down. Hard. Canon> You and the canon is those books. And that sourcebook. Lucas, too, sorry!

When you can argue with canon, come back. Sorry, but those 'drab books' are canon...in fact, as novelizations? More canon than KOTOR...nice try, attacking the actual source like that. Sorry, but they're called the strongest, when the mightiest Jedi and some of the best duelists the order had produced lived.

Youw ere saying, Exanda? Something humorous I think.

And Sexy? Go on: Ask Nai and Sama how they feel about you. What'd Nai say about you when you two argued in the Kun vs. Yoda thread? Go on, ask them.

Your debating is a joke, mate. You insult, repeat things ad nauseum and use nothing but ad hominem fallacies. It's rritating and it's gotten old. You just try to discredit the source and it's gotten really old. You're incapable of backing yourself up.

Lightsnake, youre an idiot. I'm not an infallible debator but it doesn't take much to shut you up or destroy your arguments. I've backed myself up plenty of times, while all you do is ***** and cry and live in denial. "No thats not true I don't believe it". And the simple fact that you have to try and convince yourself that somebody hates me as a result of debating on a star wars forum, you are a bigger moron than I thought. I don't have to ask Nai and Sama, because I know at the end of the day we are all cool. But as an immature and unintelligent child, I see why you try so hard to make yourself feel better.

Try me Lightsnake.

Common Sense > Canon.

That's a rule that we must all follow. That allows us to enjoy the saga much more and not take the daft view Lucas takes.

You really have no points whatsoever kid. nothing, and nothing to fall back on.

Now may I remind you that alot, and I mean alot of the material that is suddenly burned at Skywalker ranch because its not canon goes against the actual fans of the saga.

This may seem like a shock to you, but people power really is the deciding factor here. If I see Yoda beat Vodo Baas in a duel then I'll believe it, until then Baas beats the majorit yof PT duellist easily. But because Lucas makes an utterly irrelevant and idiot statement about his movies, and somehow thats canon because an LA CEO wants to get home quickly to see his kids, and rushes his workload. If I want to be treated as a kid, I'll believe canon. If I just want to look at Star Wars as some kind of western manga in CGI, I'll read canon. If I want an unintellectual debate with some kid who can't punctuate his sentense; I'll read canon.

You've heard what I have to say, and I'm glad the majority of people realise I have a good point concerning Lucas' words, but I will not lower myself to try and comprimise with you any longer, especially when you insists on believing a 3" green OAP can beat Exan Kun in a duel.

It's funny...any time I actually try to be civil with you, you keep this crap up.
No, DS, you ignore anything thrown at you.

Here's a debate for you: Three canon sources say something in definites. End. Of. Story.

Al you did was describe how you act in debates. want to remind us of how Nai took you apart in the Kun vs. Yoda debate? He was 'cool' with you? By the standards of which he insults someone maybe.

If putting someone down on a message board makes you feel better, go right ahead. I'm finished with you. I will no longer respond to your posts or acknowledge you here. As far as I'm concerned, you're an insignificant brat who gets off riling people up.

I have bigger concerns than you, DS. You're just not important enough anymore.

Originally posted by Lightsnake


In fact, I'll prove up now: AOTC and ROTS novelizations. There go your arguments

If they were a good read, maybe I'd be happy to oblige. Considering they weren't worth the money I paid for them, I have to disgaree.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, look at this now, Exanda! Getting all defensive when your BS about there being so few conflicts is shot to hell?

Ok, guess there were never any conflicts in the PT era...Lucas never touched those. And those conflicts were described as massive and costly, thanks!

And Exar Kun's spectacular war of a series of terrorist attacks was brilliant, wasn't it? Prove up.

In fact, I'll prove up now: AOTC and ROTS novelizations. There go your arguments

What have you proved, oh wait nothing? You're an idiot and I will call you an idiot until you stop being an idiot. It was called "The Sith War", because it was a war. Your poor attempts to discredit pure facts with your own ridiculous opinions because you don't like TOTJ, is classic. And what exactly did you prove? Oh here are the novelizations therefore I win. Lightsnake maybe you should stop acting like an unintelligent 17 year old child in complete and utter denial, and start trying to form cogent arguments.

Originally posted by Lightsnake

I have bigger concerns than you, DS. You're just not important enough anymore.

You need to get out more.

And thats a professionals opinion.

Common sense tells me there's no noise in space, Exanda. I'm sorry, but canon> All and that canon is definite.

You know something Exanda? The canon ACTUALLY STATES Yoda>all other Jedi by the time of ROTS.

You're claiming the canon doesn't matter to you? The very laws of Star Wars? Go on then, back Baas up, fanboy. Oh, and how's Exar gonna win against the guy described as the strongest Jedi master who's lived? The man with legions of triumphs against the dark Side? Who's faster, more agile and the best Jedi duelist in the golden age of saber fighting?

Canon> You, exanda. Get it? Noone gives a damn what you believe. Noone cares what you THINK. The canon is what decides star wars. They've shown Yoda as far exceeding vodo-carries a gun the size of a house on his back. They've shown Yoda being a supreme duelist and you know something REALLY amusing? The man who CREATED Vodo put Yoda above him in regards to yoda vs. Kun and the Ancients, that's the really umorous thing.

A delusion is a belief contrary to overwhelming evidence against it with proof of it being a falsehood. That's what you're suffering.
I'm glad you just revealed yourself as knowing absolutely nothing about Star Wars, Exanda.

I have three canon sources and unfortunately for you, that canon decides everything. The canon is: Yoda>Vodo.

Deal. With. It

You. Dont. Have. Sources. That. State. PT Era. Is. More. Martial. Shut up already.. I won't even bother responding to your full page ramblings.

Kid, you dont know what your talking about.

Your first mistake is that you've turned a nice little discussion thread into turmoil with blunt insults and an ability somewhat remniscent of the Exiles in terms of sucking the intelligence out of all others, instead of the Force.

Your second mistake is assuming people care what a little canon fanboy has to say, and that no-one, absolutedly no one gives a rats arse what I say.

Third, I am not a fanboy, I wish I had time to learn more about Star Wars, so I see this from an outsiders perspective if you will. This allows me the insight that you will never understand what I see in Star Wars, taking anything publishes by LA as your bible. You will not see Empire Strikes Back as a masterpiece of subtle film making, you will never get the key concepts which underline the very characters of Star Wars. Do you even know what binary oppositions are?

Fourth point, you, personally, dont have any opinion of Star Wars whatsoever, do you actually enjoy it? It seems from my privlieged perspective (if you will) that you don't, who knows, you might not even have seen the films. You don't seem to have any other interpretation of it other than what Lucas tells you.

Fifth point, and a rather emotive one on my behalf is how you can see there on your computer literally acting as a lawyer for LA, telling people how Lucas thinks it is and you dont seem to understand that there is a world outside of Star Wars, yet one inextricably linked to it.

And for the record, you actually think Yoda is capable of killing every damn creation LA have ever chucked out?

Firstly: ahh, more attempt to vainly deny your loss. It's cute in a totally stupid sort of way.

Second point: You aware what canon actually is? Sorry again, exanda, but the canon is what's right. Your opinion is incorrect. Write down essays if you want, but I'll tear them apart with a second sentence: The Canon says otherwise.

Third point: No, sorry: You're clinging to the belief of TOTJ characters being stronger when there's a definite statement they aren't. a bit of a blanket statement, but accurate enough. Unable to argue against this, you try nothing but attacks towards the actual sources and try to state how canon doesn't matter...ok then, so does Vader really not redeem himself? Who cares about canon. Sorry, but this little TOTJ owns all BS has been shot to hell by a single sentence in a book. Oh, and save the philosophy. That's another discussion entirely and has nothing to do with this debate.

Fourth point: I have an opinion of Star Wars. The problem is: The people who write the material make definite, factual statements in regard to Star Wars. Meaning it's what we call 'fact' in that world. Sorry if that concept escapes you.

Fifth point: Non sequitors and ad hominems are sometimes cute. But in this case they made me realize I've come on to strong. My apologies for insulting you, Exanda. I've acted entirely too belligerent so my apologies

Originally posted by exanda kane
And for the record, you actually think Yoda is capable of killing every damn creation LA have ever chucked out?
No. Lechuck from Monkey Island has him beat.

There's still DE Sidious and Luke who can defeat him. But the fact remains: Yoda is the strongest Jedi ever by the time of ROTS. And there's ample story evidence he can take just about anyone from TOTJ

Firstly: ahh, more attempt to vainly deny your loss. It's cute in a totally stupid sort of way.

Thats not a point kid. Its you trying to be condesending but failing utterly. Once again your just appearing really, really pathetic.

Second point: You aware what canon actually is? Sorry again, exanda, but the canon is what's right. Your opinion is incorrect. Write down essays if you want, but I'll tear them apart with a second sentence: The Canon says otherwise.

You do not seem to understand what I have said. i shall reitirate it for you.

Common Sense > Canon.

IF you were on LA's payroll, I would understand to an extent, but you are defintley not, I doubt you are old enough to work.

Third point: No, sorry: You're clinging to the belief of TOTJ characters being stronger when there's a definite statement they aren't. a bit of a blanket statement, but accurate enough. Unable to argue against this, you try nothing but attacks towards the actual sources and try to state how canon doesn't matter...ok then, so does Vader really not redeem himself? Who cares about canon. Sorry, but this little TOTJ owns all BS has been shot to hell by a single sentence in a book. Oh, and save the philosophy. That's another discussion entirely and has nothing to do with this debate.

Where have I once used the TOTJ term? Not once. I did not say that. I was initially referring to how vague Lucas' staement was, and believe me, it was vague. I will not save the philosiphy as I can't find one. iI's just one simple and clear point; ladies and gentlemen, I give you common sense...

Fourth point: I have an opinion of Star Wars. The problem is: The people who write the material make definite, factual statements in regard to Star Wars. Meaning it's what we call 'fact' in that world. Sorry if that concept escapes you.

Star Wars is not fact, it can be interpreted in many ways, much like poerty or Geroge Micheal. There are reasons for peoples opinions, it is called common sense (I temper with over using that term) and that is more factual than anything to do with science fiction. We need to submit our own reality to comprehend the unreal qualities in the SW universe and from that common sense we gain a better perception of the sage. I believe that concept continues to elude yours truly.

Fifth point: Non sequitors and ad hominems are sometimes cute. But in this case they made me realize I've come on to strong. My apologies for insulting you, Exanda. I've acted entirely too belligerent so my apologies That's ok. Just save it for when you see the Freddy Mercury musical...You do know who old Freddy is do you?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
No. Lechuck from Monkey Island has him beat.

There's still DE Sidious and Luke who can defeat him. But the fact remains: Yoda is the strongest Jedi ever by the time of ROTS. And there's ample story evidence he can take just about anyone from TOTJ

But its not common sense.

Maybe I'm thinkg too highly of your opinion, maybe I am still living in the world of the 80s where Yoda was little more than a strange puppet on cocaine.

And I'm afraid LFL, the company that owns Star Wars have given their say on the matter. There are no other opinions, there is fact. They;ve made it fact. Thus...it is fact.

Here's common sense for you: the people who write the stories decide the facts.

So, as far as any discussion on the matter is concerned, canon rules out.

Except it is common sense. It's been written he can and if you've seen the new movies, it's been shown Yoda can fight. Given your seeming contempt for the EU, I'll assume you haven't read much of what he does there.

Maybe your opinion is archaic and things have changed, consider that? Still living in the 80s, hm?

So, a guy able to defeat three top sabre fighters at once, carry a gargantuan gattling gun on his back, move faster than the eye can see....there's common sense. How about pointing out what Yoda can and has done?

If you don't like the EU, maybe this isn't the forum for you.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And I'm afraid LFL, the company that owns Star Wars have given their say on the matter. There are no other opinions, there is fact. They;ve made it fact. Thus...it is fact.

Here's common sense for you: the people who write the stories decide the facts.

So, as far as any discussion on the matter is concerned, canon rules out.

You are wrong, as you have well been. I have seen that people have left other threads in the past, after all, I do not want to spend my time arguing with a LA CEO.

I will stop replying in this thread now for your refusual to concede worthwhile points. I will stop trying to tell you there is a world that exists where Uncle Turkey necks opinion does not rule, and is infact void.

And I'll just roll my eyes at someone who thinks he knows more than the people writing the stories

Canon>You. End of story

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Except it is common sense. It's been written he can and if you've seen the new movies, it's been shown Yoda can fight.

I said I wouldn't reply..but this is just folly.

Did you actually watch when yoda fought? That has to be one of the most unintentially hilarious things I have ever set eyes on.

Have you seen ROTS? No more silly than any other fight in the series, such as Maul's little flipshow.