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This is an argument me and my friend can never complete. Who would win in this battle! Gandalf the White or Voldemort. I have said Gandalf the White but he says Voldemort and then we go about showing examples and stuff and neither can come before an answer.

So who wins?

VOldemort wins.

His avada Kadavra thing is unblockable just about, and is an instakill, as in it kills you in a matter of seconds.

Gandaplhs got nothing on that really.

Gandalf the white

Originally posted by Blaxican Hydra
VOldemort wins.

His avada Kadavra thing is unblockable just about, and is an instakill, as in it kills you in a matter of seconds.

Gandaplhs got nothing on that really.

Gandalf is a Maia spirit; he came back from the dead already as a more powerful person. That may work against a human but not against a divine spirit such as Gandalf the White.

*Gandalph comes back to life*


"I have returned to complete my task, VOldemort! Your power is-"

"Avada Kadavra!"

*Gandalph dies again.*

Repeat cycle and wash.

Originally posted by Blaxican Hydra
*Gandalph comes back to life*


"I have returned to complete my task, VOldemort! Your power is-"

"Avada Kadavra!"

*Gandalph dies again.*

Repeat cycle and wash.

That works against mortal man but against the divine spirits, that's another story. Plus Harry Potter managed to survive agains Voldemort as a mere child. Are you to say that the magic and power that Gandalf the White holds does not match that?

Except it wasn't Harry's doigns that saved him, it was his mother putting a love charm on him, a charm thought to be oen of the most pwoerful spells out their.

I highly doubt that anyoens goign to put a lvoe charm on a thousand year old man.

Plus, how "immortal" is gandalph? He died once, and he thougt their was a good chance he was goign to die again in Rotk. You'd think that if someone was as vastly powerful as it seems, they wouldn't be afraid of dying because of weak orcs.

Originally posted by Blaxican Hydra
Except it wasn't Harry's doigns that saved him, it was his mother putting a love charm on him, a charm thought to be oen of the most pwoerful spells out their.

I highly doubt that anyoens goign to put a lvoe charm on a thousand year old man.

Plus, how "immortal" is gandalph? He died once, and he thougt their was a good chance he was goign to die again in Rotk. You'd think that if someone was as vastly powerful as it seems, they wouldn't be afraid of dying because of weak orcs.

Weak orcs that outnumbered an army of 6,000: 1 to 10. With the terrible Ringwraiths close at hand. With Trolls and the men from the east. And the chances that Frodo might have been found/killed and the One Ring coming to Sauron.

Gandalf cast his own spell that saved his life against the Balrog in the mines of Moria. The strongest spell in "Harry Potter" isn't the strongest spell in Middle-Earth. Gandalf said "your staff is broken" and Saruman's staff broke. Saruman, a powerful wizard.

Gandalf also defeated Aragon, Legolas, and Gimli without trying to kill them. Gandalf was able to move about the land basically invisible. Gandalf is an immortal being that took on human form.

And how does that spell of Voldemort's work?

Weak orcs that outnumbered an army of 6,000: 1 to 10. With the terrible Ringwraiths close at hand. With Trolls and the men from the east. And the chances that Frodo might have been found/killed and the One Ring coming to Sauron.


Hm...thats funny. Him being immortal and all, why couldn't he just call down some lightning? Or use the flame of arnor?

Gandalf cast his own spell that saved his life against the Balrog in the mines of Moria

Hm..thats strange considering he died, and was brought back only to fulfill his last part in Middle Earth.

The strongest spell in "Harry Potter" isn't the strongest spell in Middle-Earth.
Unfounded and unsupported.

Gandalf said "your staff is broken" and Saruman's staff broke. Saruman, a powerful wizard.

Yeah this is the same fool who was also WTFpwnd by the Witch King, and was also in turn WTFpwnd by Sarumon not to long before that. I honestly don't find any of Gandalphs magic intresting.


Gandalf also defeated Aragon, Legolas, and Gimli without trying to kill them. Gandalf was able to move about the land basically invisible. Gandalf is an immortal being that took on human form.

Immortal? Than why does he die, and why does he think he mght very well die? Your contradicting yourself.

And how does that spell of Voldemort's work?

I myself am not sure, the book only describes it as near unblockable and an insta-kill.

Hm...thats funny. Him being immortal and all, why couldn't he just call down some lightning? Or use the flame of arnor?

The flame of Anor the Sacred Fire of Udûl is a mystery to all but Tolkien. The battle between Gandalf and the Nine could have been seen far off due to all the flashes of light which could have been light or explosions; the book doesn't say.

Hm..thats strange considering he died, and was brought back only to fulfill his last part in Middle Earth.

Only his flesh can die. Gandalf came to Middle-Earth and took the form of an old man. His spirit cannot be destroyed.

Yeah this is the same fool who was also WTFpwnd by the Witch King, and was also in turn WTFpwnd by Sarumon not to long before that. I honestly don't find any of Gandalphs magic intresting.

When did Gandalf fight the Witch-King?

Immortal? Than why does he die, and why does he think he mght very well die? Your contradicting yourself.

His body dies but his spirit should have returned to the Undying Lands but he was sent back by the Valar like he did when he was first sent there

I myself am not sure, the book only describes it as near unblockable and an insta-kill.

None of the books describe what is happening during this move? Perhaps if we had a passage describing it we could uncover some truth behind it.

Doesn't Voldemort's power come from his wand?

Whilst I am on ESB's side with this personally it is looked upon that Gandalf was sent back directly by Eru, not the Valar. Whilst the Valar were only concerned with that which lives in middle earth and their doing it is seen by many lore masters I know that to send Gandalf back would need a greater involvement of the most highest power. It is seen that Gandalf met Eru outside the circles of the world and was sent back soley by him.

In other areas the point about Voldermorts power being at least channeled through his wand is interesting I do not claim to be an expert on Harry Potter but I have no seen any instant where a wizard may use power especially the killing curse without use of a wand. Wheras I have seen evidence of Gandalf (please not the spelling with an f not a ph) using spells without using his staff. And ESB is quite right Gandalf and the Witch King never fought.

I think the only description of the killing curse I've read is that a green flash eminates from the tip of the wand, it strikes its target and the target falls down dead. As Gandalfs flesh could die this would kill his physical form but his spirit form would last on.

In other areas the point about Voldermorts power being at least channeled through his wand is interesting I do not claim to be an expert on Harry Potter but I have no seen any instant where a wizard may use power especially the killing curse without use of a wand. Wheras I have seen evidence of Gandalf (please not the spelling with an f not a ph) using spells without using his staff. And ESB is quite right Gandalf and the Witch King never fought.

The power comes from the wand. And Gandalf the White has proven already that he can easily disarmed (like he did Aragon) or destroy (like he did Saruman) objects even one like Saruman's staff which would be just like a wizard's wand.

So without the wand Voldermort would be essentially powerless.

Seems so. Every spell I have ever seen or heard about in Harry Potter involved the use of a wand.

Ah and if I remember was it Ron's or Neville's wand that breaks and has to be taped back together or something and all his spells start going even more wrong? Or am I making that up?

No, I think that happened.

I think Gandalf's more powerful.Voldy's nothin in front of him!

And what makes you think Gandalph can even break his wand?

HE was obviously more powerful than Aragorn and the rest of the fellowship, and because he defeated the Balrog and came back as white instead of grey he was able to break Sarumons Staff because of his new found power.

However simply saying Gandalph can break ANYONES staff no matter how powerful they are is just pure speculation, and as such needs proof to back up your statements.

Also, have we ever seen gandalph do any attacks out of his physical form? Have we seen any Mair attack anyone out of their phsycial form?

Actually, Voldemort doesn't need a wand to perform magic, there are courses how to learn and use magic without them, and Voldemort was one of the most gifted of all students, so he knew them pretty well. Harry, even when he didn't know any, used magic without a wand...

Isn't the magic however somewhat weaker? Like the same trait when used with unspoken spells. Like could the killing curse be performed with a wand and still kill someone or is the use of the wand purely for show "Ha I can kill you and look cool doing it" etc. Also Gandalf would not need to use magic to break a wand if he could get close enough he has a sword, a rather powerful sword and since I last knew hitting wooden objects very hard with big metal objects usually results in some form of damage.

Also I would at most say Voldermort was of equal power to Saurman and Gandalf since as Curumo and Olorin respectively they did kinda have a hand in making well the whole world, they were immortal spirits and were of a form of "angelic order". Whilst Saurman still fell into shadow he did not loose his power for Gandalf to shatter his staff was a show of great power. It is speculated that Gandalf as the White was the second most powerful being in existence save the one that sat in Barad-dûr.

I personally think Gandalf has this one in summary

1. He is an immortal spirit simply killing his flesh could not be seen as a victory
2. He has a very high resistance to physical harm, to fight the Balrog for so long he would have to.
3. Gandalf may use with competence both sword and magic to disarm his enemy or slay them.
4. Gandalf is somewhat more versatile thinking on his feet he one even lit pine cones on fire and used them as flaming projectiles.
5. If it came down to both of them killing the other, Gandalf would not truly be dead his spirt would live on.

Ditto.

Yay for Gandalf

Gandalf wins, because Harry Potter sucks ass.

I absolutely love the type of magic (or Art) used in Middle-Earth compared to the ridiculous lightning flinging mages of other fantasy realms. LOTR magic is so sutle yet its power is greater than say Harry Potter's or D&D's. I think the fireballing mages ruin stories with their limitless spellflinging and invincibility.

Originally posted by Nellinator
I absolutely love the type of magic (or Art) used in Middle-Earth compared to the ridiculous lightning flinging mages of other fantasy realms. LOTR magic is so sutle yet its power is greater than say Harry Potter's or D&D's. I think the fireballing mages ruin stories with their limitless spellflinging and invincibility.

Agreed.

Originally posted by Nellinator
I absolutely love the type of magic (or Art) used in Middle-Earth compared to the ridiculous lightning flinging mages of other fantasy realms. LOTR magic is so sutle yet its power is greater than say Harry Potter's or D&D's. I think the fireballing mages ruin stories with their limitless spellflinging and invincibility.

So do I. Sometimes when LOTR uses magic you're like "didn't see that coming!!" but when it's with Harry Potter or D&D it's like "who didn't see that one coming?"

true, Harry does have a sort of blatent kind of magic about it. Gandalf is a little more subtle

Me and my friend have arguments about LOTR characters vs. HP characters all the time. I beleive Gandalf would win because he is impervious to weapons, (and yes the matter that comes out of a wand is a weapon) and he can creat a force-field around him. so even if voldemort was somehow able to shoot gandalf with avada kadavra, gandalf can just creat a forcefield.

This shouldn't even be compared.

The magic in Harry Potter is far more tangible and extreme than that of Lord of the Rings. In Potter, we have spells that outright kill or perform specific functions, whereas in LOTR they are more effects than functions.

For example, Avada Kedavra has the specific function of killing, whereas Gandalf relied on spells to weaken a bridge, set things on fire, etc.

As with the Force in the older Star Wars movies, magic in Lord of the Rings is relatively subtle.

and usually more powerful

I've just read this whole thread and cringed at some of these comments. Some of the people that posted comments on here are ignorant about information concerning LOTR (Blaxican Hydra in especial) probably because they've never touched any of Tolkien's books or seen the movie, or may have only seen the movie, which of course every LOTR fan knows deviates far from the book in many parts and skips much material from the book (understandably for the sake of time) thus it is a beautiful representation of the book, but not an ETIRELY true one.

I suggest you do actually read the trilogy before writing your comments on here, so that your opinions are based on FACTS instead of just your OPINION.

You can't actually compare the magic abilities of Gandalf against Voldemort, it's impossible. The books and films have very little in common. Infact, Tolkien didn't even like to call Gandalf's abilities 'magic' and he even denies that magic is very important in his world at all (thus why there is very little in the book). He made a point of saying (and I'm quoting the man himself here...) that he uses the word "wizard" to mean something "utterly distinct from sorcerer or magician" (from The Letters Of J.R.R. Tolkien edited by H. Carpenter with Christopher Tolkien, 159).

it is difficult to compare the two if we constrain it to being absolutely technical, but you could use your imagination I think. Be that as it may, Gandalf would totally kill Voldemort.

Maikahyandowen, I wasn't being technical. I was simply speaking off true facts. Imagination has nothing to do with it, Gandalf's world and Voldemorts world are TOTALLY different! That's just fact. Gandalf doesn't use magic in the way that Voldemort does (& visa versa), they're just too different to even be compared to one another. As I quoted in my last post, Tolkien doesn't even consider Gandalf to use "magic".

And for the record: GANDALF NEVER BATTLED THE WITCH KING. Here's the evidence, an excerpt from ROTK, The Siege of Gondor, the last pages:

Thrice he cried . Thrice the great ram boomed. And suddenly upon the last stroke the Gate of Gondor broke. As if stricken by some blasting spell it burst assunder; there was a flash of searing lightning, and the doors tumbled in riven fragments to the ground.

In rode the Lord of the Nazgul. A great black shape against the fires beyond he loomed up, grown to a vast menace of despair. In rode the Lord of the Nazgul, under the archway that no enemy ever yet had passed, and all fled before his face.

All save one. There waiting, silent and still in the space before the gate, sat Gandalf upon Shadowfax: Shadowfax who alone among the free horses of the earth endured the terror, unmoving, steadfast as a graven image in Rath Dinen.
'You cannot enter here,' said Gandalf, and the huge shadow halted. 'Go back to the abyss prepared for you! Go back! Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master. Go!'
The Black Rider flung back his hood, and behold! he had a kingly crown; and yet upon no head visible was it set. The red fires shone between it and the mantled shoulders vast and dark. From a mouth unseen there came a deadly laughter.
'Old fool!' he said. 'Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!' And with that he lifted high his sword and flames ran down the blade.

Gandalf did not move. And in that very moment, behind away in some courtyard of the City, a cock crowed. Shrill and clear he crowed, recking nothing of wizardry or war, welcoming only the morning that in the sky far above the shadows of death was coming with the dawn.
And as if in answer there came from far away another note. Horns, horns, horns. In dark, Mindolluin's sides they dimly echoed. Great horns of the North wildly blowing. Rohan had come at last.

The Sacred Fire, get your thoughts together and write them down in one post.

that'd be helpful.

I would but it didn't let me. Even though it says that there's a maximum of 10,000 characters it still didn't let me.

And if that's all that you two have to say about my post and my point then what are you doing in a forum??

For the record, he didn't "battle" him in the film, either. I haven't read all the posts, however; has someone said that in this thread?

BTW: Of course Gandalf would defeat Voldemort - he's an angelic-being!

Gandalf without a doubt.

no contest really

Originally posted by The Sacred Fire
I've just read this whole thread and cringed at some of these comments. Some of the people that posted comments on here are ignorant about information concerning LOTR (Blaxican Hydra in especial) probably because they've never touched any of Tolkien's books or seen the movie, or may have only seen the movie, which of course every LOTR fan knows deviates far from the book in many parts and skips much material from the book (understandably for the sake of time) thus it is a beautiful representation of the book, but not an ETIRELY true one.

i've read the Silmarrilion (sp?), The Hobbit, and the Lotr Trilogy at least five times each. I'd recommend that you at least ask first, before making such assumptions.

can't assume much of anything

I assumed you hadn't read Tolkien's work from the wrong information in your posts, your lack of knowledge of LOTR and Gandalf and your ridiculous arguement against Gandalf.

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
Gandaplhs got nothing on that really.

1) You can't even spell Gandalf

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
*Gandalph comes back to life*


"I have returned to complete my task, VOldemort! Your power is-"

"Avada Kadavra!"

*Gandalph dies again.*

Repeat cycle and wash.

2) Your HP easykill spells do not work like that against an immortal angel/being/spirit.

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
I highly doubt that anyoens goign to put a lvoe charm on a thousand year old man.

Plus, how "immortal" is gandalph? He died once, and he thougt their was a good chance he was goign to die again in Rotk. You'd think that if someone was as vastly powerful as it seems, they wouldn't be afraid of dying because of weak orcs.

3) Gandalf was loved by many people in ME, especially elves. I'm sure he wouldn't have much trouble. Besides not everyone in ME can use magic like in HP so it is actually much more exciting and powerful when you do see it.

4) Immortal mean immortal. He is not subject to death, everlasting, enduring, perpetual. At least his physical form (body) is mortal whereas his inward form (spirit) is immortal. Can you understand this? Alot of your comments about Gandalf's immortality indicate you don't.

5) Olorin was put in the guise of an old man (Gandalf). That means that he's completely subject to the same feelings, pleasures and fears of any other man in ME. So yes he is vastly powerful but he is essentially not physically sturdier than any other old man (although this too is debatable), so the fear of dying isn't so foreign. I repeat: physically he's mortal, but his spirit is immortal.

6) Gandalf was never afraid of dying again in RotK! If you're refering to the comment in the book where Denethor suggests that Gandalf is retreating because he is outmatched, Gandalf was simply being humble (one of his most admirable traits, heck he didn't even want to be one of the Istari because he thought he wasn't strong enough) and trying to diffuse Denethor's wrath (stemmed from his pride, which is always frustrating, especially when I watch the movie

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
Weak orcs that outnumbered an army of 6,000: 1 to 10. With the terrible Ringwraiths close at hand. With Trolls and the men from the east. And the chances that Frodo might have been found/killed and the One Ring coming to Sauron. Hm...thats funny. Him being immortal and all, why couldn't he just call down some lightning? Or use the flame of arnor?

7) Again, the magic in HP and in LOTR are VERY different. Gandalf was forbidden by the higher powers that sent him to ME (Eru and the Valar) to not use open displays of power as a way of resisting Sauron. He was supposed to encourage the people of ME instead of using his great power to scare them. If he just cast spells and destroyed everything that he could how much of a battle would there be and what kind of struggle do you think there would be? There would be no story and Gandalf gets all the praise. Boring huh? Besides, people in ME would rely on him to win their battles for them, what kind of independence and future does that give them after he leaves in the Fourth Age?

That's the difficult thing with HP buffs, they don't seem to understand appreciate the sublties and articulate details of LOTR.

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
Gandalf said "your staff is broken" and Saruman's staff broke. Saruman, a powerful wizard.

Yeah this is the same fool who was also WTFpwnd by the Witch King, and was also in turn WTFpwnd by Sarumon not to long before that. I honestly don't find any of Gandalphs magic intresting.

8) Again Gandalf is spelt with an F not a PH! And for the record AGAIN: GANDALF NEVER BATTLED THE WITCH KING! In the movie that was not a battle, Peter Jackson only did that (and I know this for a fact) to give the WK more of a threatening presence in the movie. So the WK "breaking" Gandalf one way to do it. I don't agree with it and think there's other ways he could have achieved this but hey I didn't make it either so I have to accept it (I do this by skipping that scene )

It also never happened in the book. Read my other thread about this. Or read the last 2 pages in RotK: The Siege of Gondor. But since you've read it 5 times already, you should be very familiar with this scene.

9) Saruman didn't "WTFpwnd" Gandalf. It's not HP, it's LOTR. That (like the WK scene I talked about above) never happened in the book and was added for the same reason as the WK scene: to give Saruman power. And also once he snatched Gandalf staff (which I might add, the Istari's magic is somewhat attached to their staff's but not fully) he had more power and was so able to cane Gandalf.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
Gandalf also defeated Aragon, Legolas, and Gimli without trying to kill them. Gandalf was able to move about the land basically invisible. Gandalf is an immortal being that took on human form.

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
Immortal? Than why does he die, and why does he think he mght very well die? Your contradicting yourself.

10) Read 4) Then read it again. Then if you still don't understand it, then tell me what you don't understand as it's actually very simple.

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
Also, have we ever seen gandalph do any attacks out of his physical form? Have we seen any Mair attack anyone out of their phsycial form?

11) OKAY I don't mean to be a total nitpick, but seriously if you had read the books as many times as you say you have, anyone would think that you could at least spell Maiar properly! I don't believe you at all.

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
i've read the Silmarrilion (sp?), The Hobbit, and the Lotr Trilogy at least five times each. I'd recommend that you at least ask first, before making such assumptions.

12) For the love of Tolkien, it's The Silmarillion! I don't know if you're lazy or you just don't know how to spell it. But I don't believe that you've read The Silmarillion, The Hobbit and The LOTR Trilogy 5 times at all! You're not kidding me for a single second!

Therefore I didn't need to ask you as you see you got most of the information wrong. It's ok to ask if you don't know...

A simple typo. Hooray.



Doesn't have too. Gandalf's spirit is immortal, but his body is not. he's just as mortal as everyone else. he can bleed, he can be stabbed, etc. Yes, he can "Come back to life", however KMC vs. rules state that if a character can't fight back for an extended period of time, he loses the match.




Different types of love. There's a drastic difference between the love you have for your own creation, as opposed to the love one has with a mentor, or accomplice. And even if it was, as you stated, Lotr characters do not possess the same abilities that Harry Potter characters do, and vice versa.



I have already addressed this.



So? If your so powerful that you can effortlessly flick away an opponent, or number of opponents, you shouldn't have any need to have fear of dieing.



I was referring to his "death" speech with Pippin.




I agree, it would be boring. This is called PIS. However, that doesn't excuse the fact that Gandalf has not shown any real considerable feats that put him above people like Voldmort.



More PIS. This is all true, but irrelevant to this discussion. You are explaining why Gandalf doesn't go all out with his powers, but these reasons mean nothing. In a debate such as this, regardless of why or why not the character has no high showings of power, feats are required. If you can not provide feats that make Gandalf superior, or any reasons why Gandalf would win, Voldemort wins this by default.



I hate Harry Potter. I've only read books 1-5 and, coincidentally, quit after that. I was side tracked after book 5 by the Silmarillion.




Yeah yeah..



True. I did not find that out until after I read all of the books fully. More gayness brought fourth by the brilliant mind of Peter Jackson. he was a fool for not including "The Scouring" as well. Though at the same time I understand why he did it. Most of the people who didn't read the books didn't know any better. So eh. What can you do?





Feel free to take notice at those little numbers at the top of the posts. Look at the dates of then, and now. I didn't start seriously reading the books until last November.

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
i've read the Silmarrilion (sp?), The Hobbit, and the Lotr Trilogy at least five times each. I'd recommend that you at least ask first, before making such assumptions.

You said this TODAY at 07:57 AM. That's what it says. Not November. Stop making excuses. You were wrong. Accept it and move on. Denying it just makes you even more stubborn to accept that you're wrong. Trust me I know.

Your "simple typos" are consistant. Typo's are usually one-offs. Your's arent. That's why I assumed.

You REALLY do not understand the concept of Gandalf's imm/mortality STILL. Go read The Silmarillion again because I'm jaded of explaining it to you yet again for you to just come up with more irrelevant questions that go under the subject of his imm/mortality or tell me that you "have already addressed this" when you have not.

Peter Jackson excluded The Scouring of the Shire because it detached away from the movement and feel of the movie. Just think: Eagles fly and pick Frodo & Sam up. Hobbits go home later and find a battle going on. Then they go through the preperations of war, etc. They win the battle then rebuild the Shire. Then get settled in again. THEN only after all that, they stick around for a bit longer in the Shire then leave with the rest of the crew to the Undying Lands. Just think this huge war with Sauron has just finished now they have to deal with the battle in the Shire. It just isn't ideal and it's kinda confusing for people who only know the movie (Just like it was easier for PJ to make it look like Saruman was controlling Caradhras while the Fellowship were going around it when really it was the WK. It makes it easier for people who've only seen the movie to understand it, even if it pulls away a bit from the truth. PJ has his reasons for doing what he did, he didn't take the project lightly. Believe me, I know what I'm talking about here, no bull shit, he was making it down the road from where I live for crying out loud!)

As far as Gandalf's magic goes. I have already explained why he does not use it openly. On the other hand if Gandalf and Voldemort were in their own world, like some kind of neutral arena (not from either LOTR or HP) and they had their complete power and form that they truly are (Gandalf's true form=Olorin. Voldemort's true form=I have no idea. Enlighten me?) that would be another conversation altogether.

I would then say this. Gandalf would win for one reason only:

J.K. Rowling said that Voldemort's boggart would be his own corpse. She also said: "Voldemort's fear is death, ignominious death. I mean, he regards death itself as ignominious. He thinks that it's a shameful human weakness, as you know. His worst fear is death". According to Rowling, the difference between Harry and Voldemort is that Harry accepts mortality, and thus Harry is in the end stronger than his nemesis: "he real master of Death accepts that he must die, and that there are much worse things in the world of the living."

(Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Voldemort#Attributes)

SO THEN the question would be "who is magically stronger: Gandalf or Harry Potter?' And I know we would all agree that it's Gandalf.

Besides this is all really irrelevant as we are just using our imagination to debate over something that would NEVER EVER happen. But if it did, Gandalf would win anyway because:

1) Both Harry and Voldemort are mortals and Gandalf is immortal.

2) Gandalf is on the good side, whereas Voldemort is on the evil side (you know what I mean, one has good and the other evil motives). Everyone knows that good usually triumphs over evil in fantasies. Simply because the people fighting for the good side are loved and respected by most people. Whereas people fighting for the evil side are feared and only obey them out of fear of being tormented, degraded, hurt or killed. That's why almost 80% of the voters on this poll have said because they are naturally/subconciously drawn to the good side (plus for their own personal reasons of course).

That's all I have to say about it because as far as I have read there's no evidence to discuss it further or believe different.

I repeat: Stop making excuses. You were wrong. Accept it and move on. Denying it just makes you even more stubborn to accept that you're wrong. Trust me I know.

And I promise I'll lay off if you do

I wasn't referring to that, you tool. I was referirng to all the simple grammar mistakes and errors I said in the arument that you've been quoting, which was WAY back in August LAST YEAR. Read.



Want my advice? NEVER assume.



I have already addressed this. Either refute it, or explain why my reasoning is flawed. Or don't. But don't throw your sh*t around talking down to me and assuming I don't know what I'm talking about because you can't counter it, or it does't make sense to you.



HENCE why I said I can understand why he did it. Read.




I don't care if you do, honestly, because I do too.



And I have already addresed it.




but she didn't say "magically" stronger. She just said stronger, which is ambigous. She could mean magically stronger, or mentally stronger, or even physically stronger





No.. I'm using actual feats to back Voldemart up. You are using theories. "Well, if Gandalf was allowed to use his full abilities.." Which is faulty because, since we haven't actually seen Gandalf's true abilities, we have no way to compare. All we can go off of is what we see him and other Wizards do in the books, which overall isn't superior to what Voldemart can do.




Only his spirit is mortal. his regular body can be "destroyed", after which point he can be reincarnated. But it's not instantaneous like Wolverine's regenration, and as such as far as this site's rules are concerned, it would be the equivelent of Gandalf being knocked out, which is enough to score a win for Voldemort. VS. fights don't have to be a fight to the death. if character B can't get up and keep on fighting after he is attacked, character A wins.



But that is PIS (Plot-induced stupidity), someething that happens because in order to further the plot. Saying that Gandalf would win because in the movies and stories the bad guys never would does't fly here.



Quit the holier them thou attitude. You've been owned. Accept it and move on. Denying it just makes you even more stubborn to accept your wrong. You should know.

C WAT I DID THAR!?!?!!?1198822!!ELEVEN!!1

Originally posted by The Sacred Fire
8)spelt

The Sacred Fire, before you make fun of someone for their spelling skills, make sure you can spell yourself. Spelt is a species if wheat..

To add, you're allowed to have an opinion and a discussion but tone it down a notch. This thread was created for people to vote on and elaborate on who they vote for, but you're making it seem like no one's opinion but your own is right just because someone disagreed with you..

Blax_Hydralisk, no one said that Olorin as Gandalf could not win. He never used his full extent of power (that he wasn't given by the Valar and Eru while in ME) in LOTR, and so yeah you're right we don't know what it is so we can't say.

I was not owned. But I'm not going to discuss this anymore with you because it's obvious now that you have your set opinion that isn't goin to change any millenia soon (the same said for me, except I've got an open mind). Plus nothing has REALLY been addressed/discussed.

Kelly_Bean, I was pointing out Blaxs' spelling mistakes of the LOTR names, places, etc because they were consistant. Enough that it's distracting, and consistant enough to assume he really couldn't spell them. I don't know if I SPELT it that way, don't think I did and can't find where I said it because I actually do proofread and edit my posts before I send them

Also, thanks for your POV guys, didn't mean to come across so arrogantly. I can accept your opinions though I don't think it's good to be so stuck in them so to close your mind off to new ones which is probably why I came off that way.

As for this whole debate, we could fight till we are blue in the faces, probably won't change anything. You see the sky blue I see it black. I can accept that and move on to other debates.

Originally posted by The Sacred Fire
I was not owned. But I'm not going to discuss this anymore with you because it's obvious now that you have your set opinion that isn't going to change any millenia soon (the same said for me, except I've got an open mind).

My mind is just as open as yours. However, I require feats and hard evidence, as opposed to what-ifs and logical assumptions. I just dislike assumptions as a whole.

Fair enough Blax. I can easily give you both of those, but I just think we can agree to disagree and let the polls do the talking

Fine. Polls are biased, anyway.

Also, seeing as this is a Lord of the Rings forum, Gandalf will win in the poll. Were you to place the same exact poll in the Harry Potter forum, Voldie would win. That's just how it works- 99% of the time people will defend their fandom. And those who belong to both simply have fun playing devils advocate for their own amusement, depending on their mood.

I don't like polls much, because they never really mean much. Some people simply click things for the sake of clicking things. -shrugs-

Eh, exactly.

True, Elessea.

Although like I said, I think most people are naturally drawn to the 'good-side', they like good to triumph over bad and this poll may or may not reflect that.

erm...if a little wizard dude called Potter can compete with Voldemort then I think Gandalf the most awesome wizard ever could whoop his ass.

My point exactly

Poor Voldie dies.

if you know anything about gandalf then u would realise he is an angel, is not allowed to use full potential (freedom of will) and if they were fighting thanthey would be in the same universe so then avadra kadarvra would be known to gandalf
staffs beat wands
gandalf doesnt need to shout out his spells
gandalf has so much more experience

He's not an angel, he's a Maiar names Mythrandil. And he would be brougt back from Arda until he defeated Voldemort. He'd be smart enough to destroy all Horcruxes also.

How would he even know about them? the only reason Dumbledore knew about them was extensive research into Voldie's past and knowledge about him as a child.

Indeed, Gandalf or the Maia named Olorin in the West (Valinor) Mithrandir by the Elves was very powerful. But even assuming the two would meet, if he did not win by his power alone in the initial meeting I think Gandalf would die and stay dead.

The reason he was bought back in the books was because of his sacrifice, because he offered his life to give the others a chance to survive. It was only he who could have held back that Balrog and he gave his life willingly to do so. As such he was taken up by a "higher authority" (higher than the Valar) and enhanced and returned. I doubt this divine intervention would occur in any other circumstance.

All that is by the by, my point being that as much as I like Gandalf the "he'd just come back from the dead" argument is a little flimsy as it was an exception when it happened. Not the rule.

Voldemort wins.

Gandalf, much like many of the "uber" character's in LotR, has power that is only implied or alluded to, his feats do not begin to compare to that of Voldemort's.

Why are you here? =O

And uh... I'd be careful if I were you, saying stuff like that. The Secret Fire is around here somewhere...

I just kinda wandered in here one day lol.

And what I say is fact. People like to hype up Gandalf, Saruman, or Sauron to the point where they can fight actual powerful characters like Palpatine, Ganondorf, Voldemort, or even friggin Superman(I wish I was joking), but fact is...They never did much that was as impressive as their opponents.

The two magics aren't strictly comparable, with Tolkiens universe being more subtle in magics use and potency. Tolkien says himself that Gandalf can, if he must act as a sort of angel to aid in situations but does so sparingly and with little un-nessecary Flair.

In contrast Voldemort, and JKR's style of magic is very overt and very fancy. Even if the two are compared as equals Voldemort would be perceived as stronger magically, as we see more of his magical strength in the text.

So we assume Gandalf is stronger then, based on that fact that Gandalf doesn't show off as much as Voldemort?

Not at all, I'm saying its essentially a question without an answer that will always be subject to the individual viewers bias. Without a clear point on which they can be compared as equals the question cannot be negotiated to a proper answer. Its the same with most cross-fiction questions. Neither side is right or wrong, assuming both can support their views.

Sure, it is entirely possible that Gandalf may have some super great magical powers that he simply chooses not to use.

But based on what he has done, he is inferior to Voldemort.

That is what I am saying.

I have to take issue with that. His accomplishments aren't as flashy, but they are more impressive. If we compare their enemies, Gandalf's enemy (Sauron Lieutenant of Morgoth) is a much more powerful foe than Harry potter, toddler extraordinaire. It took Voldemort seventeen years to get even a semblance of a victory over potter, but then he came back to life. Gandalf destroyed Sauron within two (timeline would help) years of his retaking Mordor. He was powerful enough to 'strive' with the second most powerful force for evil in Arda (Sauron).

This shows that he is on the same power level as Sauron.
Given: Harry Potter > Voldemort

Sauron > Harry Potter That's a given
Gandalf > Sauron Proved by the passage
Gandalf > Harry Potter Substitution
Gandalf > Voldemort substitution property.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
So we assume Gandalf is stronger then, based on that fact that Gandalf doesn't show off as much as Voldemort?

In Tolkien's world the strongest magic is unseen and unheard. Like when Gandalf dispelled Saruman's possession of Gandalf. The power came from his death and rebirth i.e. his transformation into Gandalf the white allowed him to dispell Saruman's spell.

Also when Mordor cursed Hurin and the curse played out into the lives of Hurin's children. In LOTR magic is far more powerful than in Harry Porter, it's just not flashy. I don't think Voldermorts showy spells would do much against Gandalf, at least not when he brings to bare his holy magic (as he showed with the Nazgul), anything evil is repelled by it.

EDIT: It should also be mentioned, that Gandalf isn't a man or a mortal like Voldemort, he's actually a Mair, an immortal angelic being who willfully took on the form of an old man.

Voldemort is just some douche that got owned by a nerdy teenager. Gandalf is an angel, he has divine powers at his disposal and is infinitely wiser and more experienced. This isnt even a contest.

Even though by feats Gandalf has not done shit to even rival Voldemort?

So he can break a staff.

Wow. AMAZING!!!!

Simple spells in HP can incinerate objects or living things.

So he can dispell a possession.

Harry did that too, only it was a possession on him, so Harry's feat is better.

No proof at all Gandalf could survive Avada Kedavra, I mean for Christ's sake, Saruman, who was still technically a Maiar, was killed by a friggin KNIFE wielded by Wormtongue! Their shells are not so durable.

Here guys I found a true and proper comparison. It isnt Gandalf vs Voldemort but its close enough. Click

Gandalf..duh!

Yes, in Harry Potter Kadavra kills instantly but against the power from Voldemort against Gandalf, Voldemort doesn't stand a chance. There is probably power stronger than Kadavra in LOTR, and most likely Gandalf posesses it.

Voldemort prepare to be mashed up into pulp....

Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
Even though by feats Gandalf has not done shit to even rival Voldemort?

So he can break a staff.

Wow. AMAZING!!!!

Simple spells in HP can incinerate objects or living things.

So he can dispell a possession.

Harry did that too, only it was a possession on him, so Harry's feat is better.

No proof at all Gandalf could survive Avada Kedavra, I mean for Christ's sake, Saruman, who was still technically a Maiar, was killed by a friggin KNIFE wielded by Wormtongue! Their shells are not so durable.

On the last paragraph:

Yeah Saruman was killed be a knife but Gandalf isnt Saruman, is he?
Saruman was a dummy to even trust Grima in the first place.

You missed his point.

The point is that for all of the Maiar's "power", their physical bodies are mortal. They can be hurt, and killed. There spirit will live on but their body will die, and they can't choose to come back whenever they want. Gandalf's resurrection was a special occurrence. Middle Earth needed him, and so he was given a second chance.

Originally posted by xx Happy Gal xx
Gandalf..duh!

Yes, in Harry Potter Kadavra kills instantly but against the power from Voldemort against Gandalf, Voldemort doesn't stand a chance. There is probably power stronger than Kadavra in LOTR, and most likely Gandalf posesses it.

Voldemort prepare to be mashed up into pulp.... So we should assume that there is "probably" a spell in LotR more powerful, and that Gandalf "most likely" possesses it?

How about no?

Gandalf is like Saruman in that both are Maiar, and both of their mortal shells are destructible, and as my ward stated, they cannot come back as they please, Gandalf's resurrection was a direct intervention from the Valar was it not?

I hope I'm getting my fair share of Scooby Snacks for this. Your arguments would be worthless if not for me.

Only if you give me naked pictures of your cousin.

Oh yes, I went there.

The risk involved in trying to attain naked pictures of my cousin would discourage even the mightiest of men. Think of the most psychopathic thing you could do to another human being, then take discomfort in the fact that Polaski could do worse.

That's hot.

No really, that's hot.

I said psychopathic, not erotic.

I know. Nub.

I say Gandalf wins.

Well yeah, but, you're a sock.

haermm

Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
So we should assume that there is "probably" a spell in LotR more powerful, and that Gandalf "most likely" possesses it?

How about no?

Gandalf is like Saruman in that both are Maiar, and both of their mortal shells are destructible, and as my ward stated, they cannot come back as they please, Gandalf's resurrection was a direct intervention from the Valar was it not?

It was Eru; not even the Valar have the power to reincarnate someone. (I think.)

I am willing to take Gandalf's side: The shield he uses against the Balrog implies that he could also shield himself from the Avada Kedavra curse. (Mostly because there is no other evidence that Gandalf would win, except for the whole Angel of Eru thing, which meant nothing in a fight. Much as I hate to admit it, in pure combat ability I think Voldy has him beat.)



I think the biggest problem is that Voldemort is a punk, but Gandalf is frikkin BA!

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
Well yeah, but, you're a sock.

haermm

What the hell is a sock?

And anyway, I would like to say Voldemort wouldn't even get the chance to point his wand at Gandi. Hell, Legolas took five bloody minutes getting his bow ready because Gandalf was casting a spell on him. The same Legolas who could have strung a bow faster then the eye could see. Even then, IF Voldemort can get his wand at Gandalf, Gandi could super heat his wand so it catches on fire. ftw.

Only Voldemort can rapidly apparate(teleport), can turn intangible, and is much faster than Gandalf.

And as for that motion, or Voldemort can with a gesture relinquish Gandalf of his staff.

And this is ignoring the fact that with a single spell Voldemort can kill Gandalf.

Or he could just use Crucio to torture Gandalf's very mortal body slowly.

Can he cast spells while intangible?

And Gandalf can do the same thing with his wand

Gandalf can do that also. He can can down a bolt of lightning onto Voldemort's head.

It takes the same pointing and saying the word as Avada. Which he won't be able to do.

Originally posted by King-Fingolfin
Can he cast spells while intangible?

And Gandalf can do the same thing with his wand

Gandalf can do that also. He can can down a bolt of lightning onto Voldemort's head.

It takes the same pointing and saying the word as Avada. Which he won't be able to do. Not that I am aware of.

Only, you see, the thing is, Voldemort has resistance against the Expelliarmus spell in HP, which disarms the opponent, hell, disarming the opponent is a basic HP attack.

And Voldemort can kill Gandalf with a beam of light.

So Gandalf can react faster than Voldemort can speak?

Gandalf has no resistance against Avada Kedavra, you would have to prove that Gandalf is fast enough to kill Voldemort before he can use it, cause he can't block or dodge it.

K

Voldemort's wand is immune to having it catch on fire

It isn't a beam of light though. It's a beam of teh magic.

He cast the spell on Legolas who can string a bow faster then the eye can see so yeah sure why not.

I thought Avada could be blocked by another physical object

Originally posted by King-Fingolfin
K

Voldemort's wand is immune to having it catch on fire

It isn't a beam of light though. It's a beam of teh magic.

He cast the spell on Legolas who can string a bow faster then the eye can see so yeah sure why not.

I thought Avada could be blocked by another physical object Which will happen before Voldemort disarms Gandalf with a gesture(can do without wand), and then with another festure and a short word will be writhing in pain on the floor, and then with one more gesture and two words while Gandalf is incapacitated, he kills him? No. Or he can just skip step one and two and just use Avada Kedavra to kill him, considering the speed at which he can do this. As far as setting on fire goes, basic HP magic again.

Which takes the form of a beam of light.

Hyperbole.

Yeah, if it is large enough, last I checked Gandalf didn't carry a shield.

Gandalf doesn't even have to do a gesture to heat one's weapon

No it isn't.

Here's the actual statment

"He stands not alone," said Legolas, bending his bow and fitting an arrow with hands that moved quicker then sight.

Don't see any hyperbole there.

Originally posted by King-Fingolfin
Gandalf doesn't even have to do a gesture to heat one's weapon

No it isn't.

Here's the actual statment

"He stands not alone," said Legolas, bending his bow and fitting an arrow with hands that moved quicker then sight.

Don't see any hyperbole there. 1. And when was this?

Okay you mis-interpreted. It says his hands are quicker than sight, which is no strength, not that he strings a bow that fast.