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Everyone is at their peak. No offensive force powers, just lightsaber combat.

Setting: Mustafar.

I would go with Kun and Qel Droma 9/10 times. At his peak, Qel Droma was equal to or possibly better than Mace in saber combat. Kun at his peak is more powerful than Qel Droma..

What makes you say that? Mace has vaapad and shatterpoint.
Depa is... scary.

Firstly, there is no proof that Kun or Ulic are at the level of Mace or Depa.

Secondly, there is no proof that Kun would be more of a threat than Ulic in saber combat. Ulic has done far more impressive things in that field.

I mean, Mace is the one who is responsible for Jango's death, outclassed Asajj, left Sora in a pile of debris, etc. Not to mention the whole Sidious thing.

Originally posted by Sith'ari
Firstly, there is no proof that Kun or Ulic are at the level of Mace or Depa.

Secondly, there is no proof that Kun would be more of a threat than Ulic in saber combat. Ulic has done far more impressive things in that field.


Except for the fact that Ulic stalemated Kun while Kun had not yet developed his new technique+saber. Except for the fact that Kun was leagues beyond everybody(with the exception of Ulic) in saber combat. There's nothing to suggest Mace could hold his own against Kun. Perhaps Ulic but not Kun.

I would say Depa is the weak link that Ulic removes.

Then it is a battle between Exar Kun+ Ulic versus Mace.

The DLOTS duo wins.

Team Vaapad has this easily.

Originally posted by Blue_Hefner
Team Vaapad has this easily.

Sorry, there will be no "easily" for either side.

Exar>Mace
Ulic>Depa
or
Ulic>Mace maybe only slightly or at worst Ulic=Mace
Exar Kun>Depa.

Team TOTJ wins.

I think that Mace would beat Kun after a really long fight, and Ulic would beat Depa after a really long fight. It would really depend on who won first...

Mace would beat Kun? Really now? Since when is Mace even on par with Kun? If anything Mace is on par with Ulic at best. Only the likes of possibly Yoda and Luke could contend with Kun in his prime.

Oh, okay. Why, exactly?

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Depa is... scary. Depa isn't scary, she's psychotic.

Once again, this is a lightsaber duel only. You'd be surprised at the amount of people who can contend with some of the "greats" in just sheer lightsaber combat.

In a regular fight to the death, I'd give Exar and Ulic the victory, if only due to their superior Force powers. However, since this is just a lightsaber match, yes, I believe that Mace and Depa stand an excellent chance.

We know that Mace is a lightsaber prodigy of the highest order. He is on par with Yoda, Dooku, and Sidious. He created his own lightsaber form, which was heralded as the most dangerous to master, which he did, thus proving that he has the skill to match his power. He isn't too far behind Yoda himself, and managed to defeat Palpatine in a single combat lightsaber duel.

Kun shares similarities... he invented his own, lethal lightsaber form, and possesses heralded prodigious strength in that area of combat as well.

I would say that Mace has an excellent chance of defeating Kun, given his own skill and experience (which I would argue rivals Kun's own). He also possesses an inherit lightsaber form honed specifically against Dark Side users, which would also give him an edge. To top it off, he does have the Shatterpoint ability.

Then again, Mace cannot even hope to match Kun's strength... despite his overblown Clone Wars feats. Nor, do I think, can he hope to match Kun's speed and agility. Furthermore, the Shatterpoint ability is not instant - nor is it to say that it would automatically give him a victory...

So... toughie.

You also have to take into account that Kun defeated perhaps the best dueler in the galaxy at the time in Vodo, as only a Padawan. His unique lightsaber style should be too much for Mace and obviously Depa to handle, not to mention his powerful blows.

Match Kun's strength? Mace was able to contend in a sheer battle with strength. And for once this 'Exar created his own style' stuff doesn't work because Mace did likewise.
Kun has several feats of raw, physical power, and so does Mace. Kun's own darkness would be thrown back in his face, along with Mace's Shatterpoint ability?

I'd give this to Mace. He's on Kun's level

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You also have to take into account that Kun defeated perhaps the best dueler in the galaxy at the time in Vodo, as only a Padawan. His unique lightsaber style should be too much for Mace and obviously Depa to handle, not to mention his powerful blows.

Mm-hmm. But, once again, in just a sheer lightsaber match, it is highly unlikely that Kun is simply going to decimate Mace. Considering how Yoda could contend - and possibly defeat - Kun in a fight to the death, I believe that Mace has similar odds, considering how the gap between he and Yoda is not that much.

Mace possesses his own advantages that are unavaiable to Kun. Enough that it would possibly be a very good fight.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Match Kun's strength? Mace was able to contend in a sheer battle with strength. And for once this 'Exar created his own style' stuff doesn't work because Mace did likewise.
Kun has several feats of raw, physical power, and so does Mace. Kun's own darkness would be thrown back in his face, along with Mace's Shatterpoint ability?

I'd give this to Mace. He's on Kun's level

Gee, if he is on Kun's level, why would you give it to Mace? Mace isn't on Kun's level, sorry lightsnake. Yoda is on Kun's level. Mace has his form and shatterpoint but he does not have the speed, agility, nor power to keep up with Kun.

Speed, agility and power? You're basing this on what? When was Kun's speed and agility shown? Last I checked, Mace was crushing droids with his bare hands, moving faster than Kar Vastor's eyes could see and keeping up with Kar Vastor.

Why'm I giving it to Mace? Shatterpoint ability

Why is Kun any faster, more agile, or stronger than Mace? Mace beat Sidious in lightsaber combat, the same Sidious that owned three Jedi Masters in the same amount of seconds. Hey wait, I already brought this up:

Originally posted by jollyjim311
I mean, Mace is the one who is responsible for Jango's death, outclassed Asajj, left Sora in a pile of debris, etc. Not to mention the whole Sidious thing.

As far as physical strength goes, he, using both the force and his physical strength manged to hold off Sidious' lightning. Also, with his shatterpoint ability, he doesn't need to expend a lot of physical strength for amazing results. I mean, Mace is the guy who can break a crystal with a light tap. While maybe not as impressive in lightsaber combat, it has the same principal.

And again, Kun defeated possibly the grandmaster in the order as a mere padawan, Kun then tooled the same grandmaster in mere seconds. He had no equals in lightsaber combat, and his technique and sabers were lost with him, so it is possible, even LIKELY that the PT Jedi are unfamiliar with this form, as Vodo was, which is why he most likely got tooled.

Mace defeated Sidious, and? By no means is Sidious even close to Kun in saber combat. Kun and Yoda are on the same level and Mace would never defeat Yoda. His shatterpoint ability is going to do what? We've seen Kun's strength, we've seen his speed. The guy was the best of the best in a more martial time.

Vodo wasn't the grandmaster, that BS has got to stop...no evidence there WAS a grandmaster.

And his 'techniques with the saber?' Why, then, are DBLs PLENTIFUL in a manner of decades? Great, he was unmatched in an order of Jedi weaker than the PT? And Kun would be familiar with Mace's form? Give it a rest. We've seen Kun's speed? Where? We've seen Mace's too...and more martial time? LOL! The PT Jedi faced five major conflicts in a matter of several years! There's no proof the TOTJ era was 'more martial', especially considering the vast peace they were under. And who says Yoda and Kun were on the same level? I and Nai said we don't see Yoda losing.
Where've we seen Kun's speed? We've seen Mace's and from what we've seen of his strength, it far surpasses Kun.

And Sidious is described as one of the best duelists to ever live, thanks
What's Kun going to do when Mace's shatterpoint ability finds the weaknesses of his style and ability and Vaapad ensures Kun can't get an advantsage?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Vodo wasn't the grandmaster, that BS has got to stop...no evidence there WAS a grandmaster.

And his 'techniques with the saber?' Why, then, are DBLs PLENTIFUL in a manner of decades? Great, he was unmatched in an order of Jedi weaker than the PT? And Kun would be familiar with Mace's form? Give it a rest. We've seen Kun's speed? Where? We've seen Mace's too...and more martial time? LOL! The PT Jedi faced five major conflicts in a matter of several years! There's no proof the TOTJ era was 'more martial', especially considering the vast peace they were under. And who says Yoda and Kun were on the same level? I and Nai said we don't see Yoda losing.
Where've we seen Kun's speed? We've seen Mace's and from what we've seen of his strength, it far surpasses Kun.

And Sidious is described as one of the best duelists to ever live, thanks
What's Kun going to do when Mace's shatterpoint ability finds the weaknesses of his style and ability and Vaapad ensures Kun can't get an advantsage?

Oh yes lightsnake, the clone wars and the squabble on Naboo was ANYTHING compared to the Sith War, and the Jedi civil war. Hence the more martial time=fact.

And nothing remotely suggests Mace's strength far surpasses Kun's. And you may want to read the Yoda vs. Kun thread because I am looking at what Nai is saying, and it has nothing to do with "I don't see Yoda Losing". Please stop making shit up.

And please, where was it said Sidious was one of the best ever? Show me? I can name you 5-10 people that were above him. And what make you think Mace is going to magically find a weakness in Kun's technique? As I recall, Kun's technique was a mixture of Makashi and something else, yet it was lost with him.

Please stop your fanboyism and start arguing logically.

As I told you before, DS. Palpatine hadn't actively trained with a lightsaber for thirteen years, and yet he was still able to kill three Master-level Jedi, fight Mace in a battle to the death that "could have lasted forever, if not for the Shatterpoint ability", and stalemate Yoda, speaks a lot for him.

Edit: Considering how the Clone Wars were a galaxy-spanning conflict, and all that jazz, with the Jedi, clones, and droids, yes, I'd have to say that the Clone Wars, Civil War, and the Yuuzhan Vong war were far more costing and more... significant, than anything in Kun's time.

The Yinchorri, Dathomiri, Stark Hyperspace War, Clone Wars, which was described as BY LUCAS one of the most dire conflicts the galaxy ever faced?

And what shows Kun's strength surpasses Mace's? Did Kun match up with Kar Vastor? Destroy super battle droids with his bare hands? No, he held an old squid up with one hand...where's Kun's strength and speed exceeded Mace?

And Insider for Sidious. Stated as he was able to kill three of the best saber duelists of the Order in seconds.
And 'as you recall?' Nothing shows Kun made his own style with Makashi or otherwise. he MAY have created his own weapon, but style? No proof, sorry!
And what makes me think Mace is gonna find a weakness? It's called 'Shatterpoint' and that's what the technique's ENTIRE FUNCTION IS.

Sorry lightsnake, he created his own saber, and his own style since the hilts on his saber were small enough to be used by 1 hand. And again, Mace is not on Kun's level, so Kun would take him out more times than not.

And again, Sidious might have been up there but he was nowhere near Kun's level, such as Yoda and possibly Mace.

No, actually, no proof he created his own style. And double bladed sabers were plentiful decades later.

You've yet to offer any proof. I take what Insider said about a guy who killed three of the best swordsmen the Jedi Order ever produced over your word.
Sorry! Mace's shatterpoint, strength, speed, skill and actually proven to be created by Mace's style? That's good enough!

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Sorry lightsnake, he created his own saber, and his own style since the hilts on his saber were small enough to be used by 1 hand. And again, Mace is not on Kun's level, so Kun would take him out more times than not.

And again, Sidious might have been up there but he was nowhere near Kun's level, such as Yoda and possibly Mace.

No offense, but this logic makes zero sense.

It was described that Sidious's duel with Mace could have gone on forever if not for Mace's shatterpoint ability. That statement there - and the duel itself - indicates that the lightsaber skill gap between Mace and Sidious is not by much at all. Nor is it between Mace and Yoda or Yoda and Sidious.

How do you explain that?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
No, actually, no proof he created his own style. And double bladed sabers were plentiful decades later.

You've yet to offer any proof. I take what Insider said about a guy who killed three of the best swordsmen the Jedi Order ever produced over your word.
Sorry! Mace's shatterpoint, strength, speed, skill and actually proven to be created by Mace's style? That's good enough!


Wrong. Kun's double saber was unique and never replicated, unless you want to argue against facts. Sure double lightsabers were replicated years later, but it was two sabers combined into 1, which in size were usually taller than the person. Not to mention Kun for sure used a Makashi style with a double bladed lightsaber, mixed with another style. That would entail a unique style no? Obviously you don't use common sense.

Three of the best swordsmen the Jedi Order ever produced? Now lightsnake the fanboy starts to make shit up. Please lightsnake, your arguing abilities are lacking. Him killing 3 masters has no bearing on the fact that Kun is superior to him, Ulic is superior to him, Mace and Yoda, possibly DN Kyle, Revan, etc.. So your point as usual is moot.

And sorry, Mace's shatterpoint ability isn't going to give him the victory. With your stupid logic, Mace could defeat Yoda, and Luke, since he supposedly can find a weakness in anything! Kun's speed, agility, unique form, and powerful hits will take Mace out. Stop getting so angry, you lose.

Originally posted by Escape81
No offense, but this logic makes zero sense.

It was described that Sidious's duel with Mace could have gone on forever if not for Mace's shatterpoint ability. That statement there - and the duel itself - indicates that the lightsaber skill gap between Mace and Sidious is not by much at all. Nor is it between Mace and Yoda or Yoda and Sidious.

How do you explain that?

Explain what? That Sidious was below Mace? We an argue all day about Mace's shatterpoint ability to either diminish him or embellish Sidious' power. The fact remained that Mace was a better dueler than Sidious, period. Yoda was better than Mace, Yoda was better than Sidious, unless you want to use the A>B>C argument and state that Mace>Yoda or Mace=Yoda..

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Explain what? That Sidious was below Mace? We an argue all day about Mace's shatterpoint ability to either diminish him or embellish Sidious' power. The fact remained that Mace was a better dueler than Sidious, period. Yoda was better than Mace, Yoda was better than Sidious, unless you want to use the A>B>C argument and state that Mace>Yoda or Mace=Yoda..

You said that Sidious is no where near on Kun's level, and yet Yoda and Mace are.

I just explained to you that it was Mace's shatterpoint ability that gave him the victory against Sidious, and that - otherwise - we would never have known who could've won the fight, otherwise.

But, then Sidious is no where near Kun's level and yet Mace is?

That logic is poor. If you can't understand that, then you're hopeless.

Prove Kun's saber was never replicated. Prove what Kun's style was.

And, hey, moron? the ROTS novelization states they were three of the best swordsmen the Jedi order ever produced.

Oh, continuously stating 'Kun is superior' without proof is blatant stupidity and fanboyism as you've yet to respond to a single point or back any of yours up

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Prove Kun's saber was never replicated. Prove what Kun's style was.

And, hey, moron? the ROTS novelization states they were three of the best swordsmen the Jedi order ever produced.

Oh, continuously stating 'Kun is superior' without proof is blatant stupidity and fanboyism as you've yet to respond to a single point or back any of yours up

Asking me to prove a negative, what a moron. Again, considering Kun's hilt was short, he was able to maneuver with a double lightsaber singlehandidly.

Show me the quote before you make yourself look like a whiney queer.

Oh yes, as opposed to "Omg he has the shatterpoint ability, he can destroy droids, he MUST be able to take Kun!"

Originally posted by Escape81
You said that Sidious is no where near on Kun's level, and yet Yoda and Mace are.

I just explained to you that it was Mace's shatterpoint ability that gave him the victory against Sidious, and that - otherwise - we would never have known who could've won the fight, otherwise.

But, then Sidious is no where near Kun's level and yet Mace is?

That logic is poor. If you can't understand that, then you're hopeless.


ERr it was an exaggeration. You talk of this shatterpoint ability as if he could use it to defeat anybody. And yes, based on your OWN logic, because of Mace's shatterpoint ability he could be considered somewhere near Kun's level, while Sidious cannot. Yoda obviously is.

Prove it was unique. Now

It's in the ROTs novelization "Four of the best swordsmen the Jedi Order ever produced."

Shatterpoint ability plus everything else. Sorry, moron!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Prove it was unique. Now

It's in the ROTs novelization "Four of the best swordsmen the Jedi Order ever produced."

Shatterpoint ability plus everything else. Sorry, moron!


A Makashi type style using a short hilted double lightsaber=unique.. Dumbass

"four of the best"? That would obviously excuse the likes of Kun, Yoda, Mace, Anakin, Obiwan, Ulic, and anybody else better than those four? Nice ambiguous quote jackass.

"Omg shatterpoint and EVERYTHING Else". Way to debate jackass.. Logic>fanboyism

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
ERr it was an exaggeration. You talk of this shatterpoint ability as if he could use it to defeat anybody. And yes, based on your OWN logic, because of Mace's shatterpoint ability he could be considered somewhere near Kun's level, while Sidious cannot. Yoda obviously is.

Yes, I know that it was an exaggeration. I hoped that you realized that it was, as well, considering that the gap between Mace, Sidious, and Yoda is, by no means, leagues.

a. You're talking about lightsaber combat. You were the one who said, in lightsaber combat, that Sidious is no where near Kun and yet Mace and Yoda are. I am pointing out how foolish that assessment is, considering how he was able to give them both hell in their fights.

b. My logic states that - in a battle without the Force - Mace would give Kun a hell of a time, given his own prodigious skill and the Shatterpoint ability. But if you take everything away, and leave just sabers, I believe that Kun would take Mace.

c. Once again (especially in saber combat), Yoda and Mace are very close in power. I would argue, in fact, that they are roughly dead even in lightsaber ability, but that Yoda's grasp of the Force is superior, by a few considerable degrees.

A. agreed
B. Agreed
C. Agreed.

Well that says it, excuse my lack of usual talented and perfect debating, its early.

A. Prove it was Makashi.

B. Four of the best the Order ever produced. Puts them on a nice plateau now. Where does Kun ever have that title?

C. Considering I already said the others.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
A. Prove it was Makashi.

B. Four of the best the Order ever produced. Puts them on a nice plateau now. Where does Kun ever have that title?

C. Considering I already said the others.

A. It is stated somewhere, not to mention that again, he had the ONLY short hilted double saber ever invented, meaning he could use it with 1 hand, meaning it would have to have a special style not seen in lightsaber combat considering the rest of the double lightsabers are just 2 lightsabers put together, so there's your logical deduction.

B. Kun doesn't need that title, Kun was better than the entire Jedi Order of the martial era, and only rivaled by Yoda in terms of sheer saber combat.

C. Give it up.

A. Prove it. Prove Kun's weapon was totally unique. You can't.
B. Not a more martial era. Liar. Lucas describes the PT era as the prime of the Jedi. In reference to combat. You lose
C. Already said the others

Originally posted by Lightsnake
A. Prove it. Prove Kun's weapon was totally unique. You can't.
B. Not a more martial era. Liar. Lucas describes the PT era as the prime of the Jedi. In reference to combat. You lose
C. Already said the others

A. You're an idiot, arguing with facts. I won't be surprised if you get flamed for it. His weapon was TOTALLY unique, not to mention there at 50+ sources that state Kun invented his own saber/style and it was never duplicated. This is what happens when you have run out of an argument lightsnake, you start playing stupid, plus if you look at the scan you'll realize there has never been one like it. Quit making a fool out of yourself.

B. Prime of the Jedi in terms of "as a whole these Jedi were the best of all Jedi". Meaning it has nothing to do with 1 individual, much less a DLOTS, so not only do you lose but you sound like a moron spewing out irrelevant quotes.
C. Yes, you've proven once again that you lack any debating abilities.. Pwned..

A. Name one of these sources. Just one. There's never been a style or weapon like Nikkos Tyris's seen either, means nothing, sorry.
B. Meaning the Jedi of the PT as a whole were better than the TOTJ Jedi...meaning it looks like the so-called 'more martial era' (Which is bs anyways) just isn't as good
C. You've failed to offer a single counterexample.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
A. Name one of these sources. Just one. There's never been a style or weapon like Nikkos Tyris's seen either, means nothing, sorry.
B. Meaning the Jedi of the PT as a whole were better than the TOTJ Jedi...meaning it looks like the so-called 'more martial era' (Which is bs anyways) just isn't as good
C. You've failed to offer a single counterexample.


A. Ok first you play stupid by asking me to prove that Kun's was unique. Now you say "Oh just because it's unique it means nothing". Which is it lightsnake, get your bullshit straight.

B. What does the martial era have to do with the PT era as a whole being better? You're an idiot? Correct.

C. You haven't offered a single argument yet, besides your ignorant stupidity.

A, Name these sources, liar. I haven't seen anything saying his weapon OR style were unique.

B. No, it means the PT was better than the so-called more martial error, considering the TOTJ era wasn't more martial.

C. Examples of Mace's strength and speed, plus his ability which throws Kun's darkside abilities back at him, his shatterpoint ability, his OWN unique style, his ability in telekenetic saber combat, his astounding measure of the Force which allowed him to even use generally darkside techniques, his agility and skill which allowed him to destroy a small army of droids, a seismic tank, airborn fighters..

You have resorted to: "Mace can't beat Kun, Kun rules."

Without offering a single argument.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
A, Name these sources, liar. I haven't seen anything saying his weapon OR style were unique.

B. No, it means the PT was better than the so-called more martial error, considering the TOTJ era wasn't more martial.

C. Examples of Mace's strength and speed, plus his ability which throws Kun's darkside abilities back at him, his shatterpoint ability, his OWN unique style, his ability in telekenetic saber combat, his astounding measure of the Force which allowed him to even use generally darkside techniques, his agility and skill which allowed him to destroy a small army of droids, a seismic tank, airborn fighters..

You have resorted to: "Mace can't beat Kun, Kun rules."

Without offering a single argument.


A. "Do you like the modifications I have made to my lightsaber master". Open TOTJ, open NEC, open any source. YOu look more like a fool everytime you try to argue facts with ignorance.

B. No, it doesn't, it means the PT as a WHOLE was more powerful. It has nothing to do with being more martial, stop making stupid assumptions that make no sense.

C. His ability that throws the darkside back to him? Interesting. Again, Mace beat Sidious because of his shatterpoint ability, while Kun is better than Sidious, faster, more powerful, more agile, and has a form Mace hasn't seen before.

And it's a lot better than "Omz Mace has shatterpoint and can destroy droids he will beat one of the 3 greatest duelists ever".

A. Nothing about him inventing the saber or the style. Earliest known user is one thing, creator is another.

B. Logic then, considering the PT faced something described by Lucas as one of the most dire conflicts ever, the Yinchorri, the Stark Hyperspace War, several Dark Jedi uprisings, Volfe Karkko, the Mercosa, the Thryssian Sun Guard, the Bfasshi uprising and many others...the TOTJ era conflicts pale in comparison. Plus the PT was stronger as a whole, shooting this 'more martial' BS to hell as if it meant anything

C. Yeah, that's what Vaapad DOES. And where was Kun;s ability or speed shown? Oh, right, it wasn;t! Proof Kun has a different form? And Sidious is described as one of the best saber duelists who ever lived and you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with him by the time of the PT...no Kit, not Exar, not anyone else: Mace or Yoda.

And Mace has a form Exar has never seen that is far more effective: Throws Exar's darknes sback in his face PLUS the shatterpoint ability.

Now, you were saying? And that Sidious info comes from Insider and ROTS novelization, thanks

Originally posted by Lightsnake
A. Nothing about him inventing the saber or the style. Earliest known user is one thing, creator is another.

B. Logic then, considering the PT faced something described by Lucas as one of the most dire conflicts ever, the Yinchorri, the Stark Hyperspace War, several Dark Jedi uprisings, Volfe Karkko, the Mercosa, the Thryssian Sun Guard, the Bfasshi uprising and many others...the TOTJ era conflicts pale in comparison. Plus the PT was stronger as a whole, shooting this 'more martial' BS to hell as if it meant anything

C. Yeah, that's what Vaapad DOES. And where was Kun;s ability or speed shown? Oh, right, it wasn;t! Proof Kun has a different form? And Sidious is described as one of the best saber duelists who ever lived and you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with him by the time of the PT...no Kit, not Exar, not anyone else: Mace or Yoda.

And Mace has a form Exar has never seen that is far more effective: Throws Exar's darknes sback in his face PLUS the shatterpoint ability.

Now, you were saying? And that Sidious info comes from Insider and ROTS novelization, thanks

A. Lightsnake, arguing with facts is ridiculous, I suggest you find another argument, or just stop.

B. You're the one who said PT is stronger and more martial, while I said that the Jedi Civil War was the worst war in the galaxy up until The Vong arrived. This is FACT.

C. Oh yes, Kun was slow which is why he defeated his master as a padawan, tooled him again as a master, and stalemated another prodigy. Good one. And again, since your anti logic, Logic dictates that Kun had to use a different form and/or created his own considering the hilt on his lightsaber was short and he can wield it single handidly. And I like how you take the quote completely out of context to prove to yourself that you have an argument, but ignorance is your thing. But no lightsnake, it means "You had to be either Yoda or Mace", pertaining to that time and the jedi order, not overall, so try again next time. Your incorrect interpretations won't save you. And as for vaapad, you have no idea if it is more effective than Kun's form, so quit trying so hard.

A. It's not fact until it's written. Show me a source.

B. Really now? Because Lucas seems to cite the Clone wars as the most dire conflict in Shatterpoint's opening. This is fact how? Oh, right...it isn't. I think those with logic may list the fourth great schism-which the Sith themselves cite as the bloodiest conflict- which was a thousand year series of wars with the Sith that nearly saw the Jedi Order extinct.

C. Who said he was slow? You're putting words in my mouth. I want where he was faster than people like Yoda and Mace.

And Mace's form was the most dangerous form and the hardest to master, and considering there's no telling what form Kun used.

And Lucas: You have to be Mace or Yoda.

Not Kun. Not Ulic, not Vodo. Mace or Yoda. He also adds Anakin unburnt. And out of context? Do put it in context then.
Oh, and Kun uses two hands on the saber hilt at a coupla points and considering he only swings the thing three times...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
A. It's not fact until it's written. Show me a source.

B. Really now? Because Lucas seems to cite the Clone wars as the most dire conflict in Shatterpoint's opening. This is fact how? Oh, right...it isn't. I think those with logic may list the fourth great schism-which the Sith themselves cite as the bloodiest conflict- which was a thousand year series of wars with the Sith that nearly saw the Jedi Order extinct.

C. Who said he was slow? You're putting words in my mouth. I want where he was faster than people like Yoda and Mace.

And Mace's form was the most dangerous form and the hardest to master, and considering there's no telling what form Kun used.

And Lucas: You have to be Mace or Yoda.

Not Kun. Not Ulic, not Vodo. Mace or Yoda. He also adds Anakin unburnt. And out of context? Do put it in context then.
Oh, and Kun uses two hands on the saber hilt at a coupla points and considering he only swings the thing three times...

A. I am not going to argue facts with you, you are wrong, and accept it or continue droning on like a broken record.

B. I'm sorry lightsnake, but the Jedi Civil War was the most devastating war until the Vong came about. It brought about the near extinction of the Jedi as well, so your point is moot.

C. Oh yes, lightsnake defense mechanism. "Show me the specific quote where it says character X was faster than character Y". Kun was the greatest duelist up until Yoda, his unique style and saber give him an advantage not to mention his speed, power, and agility.

A. Provide the facts then. I've asked you before.

B. Prove it. Wait, you can't? Even Lucas called the CW one of the most dire conflicts and the Sith themselves consider the Thousand year War more devastating. No proof.

C. Prove he was the greatest duelist until Yoda. No proof he was stronger or faster than anyone else. No proof he used a unique style.

You're a liar.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
A. Provide the facts then. I've asked you before.

B. Prove it. Wait, you can't? Even Lucas called the CW one of the most dire conflicts and the Sith themselves consider the Thousand year War more devastating. No proof.

C. Prove he was the greatest duelist until Yoda. No proof he was stronger or faster than anyone else. No proof he used a unique style.

You're a liar.

A. I'm not going to provide facts for you when you can open TSW, or any of your so called sources and look it up.

B. Oh wait, Lucas called the CW one of the MOST, and the thousand year war was devastating in terms of Jedi and Sith. Play KOTOR, the Jedi War was the single most destructive war until the Vong Invasion.

C. Prove he was the greatest? LOL! You're hilarious lightsnake. Playing stupid as your last resort. Lets see Kun had no equal, Kun had a unique saber which would require a different form. I've given you proof lightsnake. Facts>Your Denial. Pwned.

A. Basically you're saying you have nothing. I've opened the books. Nothing says Lun created his own style. Nothing.

B. PRove it. The Thousand Years War saw the entire galaxy devastated and both orders crushed. The Jedi Civil War is cited as bloody and wasteful, but didn't damage the Republic overmuch. You're offering no proof but your opinion. And I could cite numerous ways the other wars were more damaging.

C. Prove it. You keep saying this crap but no sources and no proof. And Maul had a unique weapon, he used Juyo. Nikkos Tyris had a different form, he used a saber. So?
Once more: I want canon, LFL approved proof. Not your words

Originally posted by Lightsnake
A. Basically you're saying you have nothing. I've opened the books. Nothing says Lun created his own style. Nothing.

B. PRove it. The Thousand Years War saw the entire galaxy devastated and both orders crushed. The Jedi Civil War is cited as bloody and wasteful, but didn't damage the Republic overmuch. You're offering no proof but your opinion. And I could cite numerous ways the other wars were more damaging.

C. Prove it. You keep saying this crap but no sources and no proof. And Maul had a unique weapon, he used Juyo. Nikkos Tyris had a different form, he used a saber. So?
Once more: I want canon, LFL approved proof. Not your words

A. Kun was the first to use a double bladed saber, therefore he created it, therefore it's his, and that's providing no proof, just common sense which you don't have. Also it was unlike any others as it was a short hilt and the blades were in diameter, shorter than he was as opposed to all other double bladed sabers that are bigger than the person.

B. Prove what? Youn continuously flaunt around with your "prove it" nonsense. It doesn't even make sense because you don't have an argument. The Jedi Civil War didn't damage the republic? Wow lightsnake, in the beginning of KOTOR II it was said that the war "left the republic in shambles and left the jedi all but extinct". Nice arguing with facts.

C. Maul didn't have a unique weapon you twit, it was a simple double lightsaber, what was your point. You want LFL proof? LOL. Why don't you just say "If GL doesnt say it then I don't believe it". THat's about the only bullshit that will help your defeated argument.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
B. You're the one who said PT is stronger and more martial, while I said that the Jedi Civil War was the worst war in the galaxy up until The Vong arrived. This is FACT.

Oh yes...the Jedi Civil War. May I ask you how a war which happened AFTER KUN'S TIME would affect the skill of his contemporaries ? No ? The only battles happened before the Great Sith War (from the Great Hyperspace War on) were the Third Shism (which ended in the same year with the rouge Jedi blowing themselves up in the Vultar Cataclysm) and the Great Droid Revolution (lasting less than a year).

So where do you get the "more martial time" stuff from. I guess not from the fact that Andur Sunrider, a fully trained TOTJ Jedi wasn't able to defeat some bandits in personal combat while we see Darsha Assent (a Padawan) leveling an entire gang and later Kenobi (whoopie - next Padawan) keeping up with Droidikas, tons of droids and even Black Sun members ? Give me a brake.



I'm pretty sure that Kun wasn't slow. Yet Mace was fast enough to place six hits on Kar Vastor (who's a rather powerful force user on his own especially in the jungle of Haruun Kal) before Vastor could even blink.



Yes. Kun created his own form - he had to due to the fact that he created a unique weapon.

Now please compare that to Mace. Mace invented Vaapad at the age of 13 - and this required former mastery of forms IV, V and VII. And he had to learn form I as everybody did. So...Mace mastered four forms and designed his own already at the age of 13 and then he did go on and practice his own form for 40 years.

We know that Kun did master at least some forms according to his movements and duelling ablities displayed in the TOTJ comics (most likely form II, form V and Jar'Kai) but in contrary to Mace he didn't have the time to refine his own style.



Did you actually read Shatterpoint ?
Yoda descripes Vaapad as the "most deadly form of lightsaber combat". Depa using two lightsaber manages to similary deflect blaster fire from two gunboats while being on a third gunboat and is even able to redirect seven blaster bolts into a small hole on the cockpit of one of those gunboats. After she jumped into the third one and slaughtered the entire crew (20 or 30 people) on her own. Talk about effectivity.

This aside from the fact that Mace would have some advantage due to his Shatterpoint ability and in "Shatterpoint" he also says that Depa's bladework had already surpassed his Vaapad. And given that this is a sheer lightsaber fight, I'm pretty sure Mace and Depa would manage to take Kun and Ulic down after a hard fight.

A. PRove it. He's called the first known user. DBLs don't require different forms to use them.

B. Hm, and Go-To says Revan went out of his way to keep the infrastructure intact. You get tired of people asking for proof? You expect us to take your opinion? Prove. Up. The Sith themselves call the Betrayal War the worst and most bloodiest and the Clone wars was unlike anything the galaxy had seen.

C. So what? The length of the hilt matters at all?
And LFL proof: Anything they've published. ANYTHING beyond an opinion. Printed, spoken, or shown facts from an LFL product.
And since GL did say it, I can side with him, thanks.
What I'm saying is I don't care about your opinion, I want something more substantial

I disagree with that Nai. Show Lightsnake that Kun invented his own weapon and style since he loves arguing with stupidity. Now since this is ONLY a lightsaber fight, Windu can't use his shatterpoint. And Depa defeating Ulic? Seriously. This is a SHEER Lightsaber battle, in which Ulic would take out Depa, and Kun would take out Mace after a long fight, or at the very most, Ulic would take out Depa and help Kun finish Mace. Or Ulic and Mace stalemate while Kun tools Depa and finishes off Mace.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
A. PRove it. He's called the first known user. DBLs don't require different forms to use them.

B. Hm, and Go-To says Revan went out of his way to keep the infrastructure intact. You get tired of people asking for proof? You expect us to take your opinion? Prove. Up. The Sith themselves call the Betrayal War the worst and most bloodiest and the Clone wars was unlike anything the galaxy had seen.

C. So what? The length of the hilt matters at all?
And LFL proof: Anything they've published. ANYTHING beyond an opinion. Printed, spoken, or shown facts from an LFL product.
And since GL did say it, I can side with him, thanks.
What I'm saying is I don't care about your opinion, I want something more substantial

A. You're an idiot, which is fact.

B. Us? Only youre arguing facts, nobody else is. Again I reiterate the fact the quote that was stated in KOTOR II so that's your proof. If you don't like it, shut it.

C. Lightsnake, youre an idiot.

A. Insulting beats actually proving your points, doesn't it?

B. So, once Malak took the helm, then. The Sith and the Republic both say differently. And KOTOR II said nothing about it being the bloodiest war ever

C. Once again, insults beat facts.

How can Mace not use his shatterpoint? It's an innate ability, something he was born with.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
A. PRove it. He's called the first known user. DBLs don't require different forms to use them.

What? What do you mean double blades don't require a different form? If I'm understanding what you said correctly (probably not), say you were to use Djem So with a double blade - you'd have to incorporate the moves, and fit them into the blade's movements itself, so basically you are using a unique form because you are changing the moves, and integrate them so they can work in conjunction with the double blade.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
A. Insulting beats actually proving your points, doesn't it?

B. So, once Malak took the helm, then. The Sith and the Republic both say differently. And KOTOR II said nothing about it being the bloodiest war ever

C. Once again, insults beat facts.


A. No, when you argue with facts, I state a fact too. It makes you look foolish.

B. Nobody says any war was the bloodiest ever except the Vong invasion, quit putting words into my mouth. It left the republic in shambles, the jedi were all but extinct. Show me another war that did the exact same thing to both the Jedi and the republic. Oh wait, you can't.

C. No lightsnake, because you will look to constantly contradict facts and ask for specific proof from a specific person, because your argument is defeated, is why I call you an idiot.

Originally posted by Advent
What? What do you mean double blades don't require a different form? If I'm understanding what you said correctly (probably not), say you were to use Djem So with a double blade - you'd have to incorporate the moves, and fit them into the blade's movements itself, so basically you are using a unique form because you are changing the moves, and incorporating them so they can work in conjunction with the double blade.


Omg is common sense in here? Sweet

Hardly. It's just the same manner of fighting, but a different weapon...it's confirmed Maul was a Juyo user, and he used a DBL. Every DBL would be using a unique style if that was the case...kinda takes away from the uniqueness

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Hardly. It's just the same manner of fighting, but a different weapon...it's confirmed Maul was a Juyo user, and he used a DBL. Every DBL would be using a unique style if that was the case...kinda takes away from the uniqueness

No, every DBL user would not be using a unique style, they would be using a unique style of a single saber form, that's all. Kun didn't have the same saber that everyone else did, it died with him. He created it, he made the power of the crystals travel to both sides of the hilts and all, his saber was shorter than all the others, he could wield it with 1 hand, his technique was unique and lost.

Once again, by this logic, everyone from Yoda to Dooku is using a different style because of hilt style and size..
And no, nothing shows what style he used. Nothing says his weapon was unique, just that he was the earliest known user. And earliest known user implies there were others.
And we see him wield it with one hand once. Twice more we see him use two when he strikes-when he kills Vodo and when he attacks Ood...when he injures Vodo, he uses one hand and when he twirls it, he uses one hand.

The size of a blade's hilt should make no different to what form someone uses. Dooku uses a 'unique' saber one handed...Shaak ti uses two hands with a standard size...and she's a Makashi user too

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Once again, by this logic, everyone from Yoda to Dooku is using a different style because of hilt style and size..
And no, nothing shows what style he used. Nothing says his weapon was unique, just that he was the earliest known user. And earliest known user implies there were others.
And we see him wield it with one hand once. Twice more we see him use two when he strikes-when he kills Vodo and when he attacks Ood...when he injures Vodo, he uses one hand and when he twirls it, he uses one hand.

The size of a blade's hilt should make no different to what form someone uses. Dooku uses a 'unique' saber one handed...Shaak ti uses two hands with a standard size...and she's a Makashi user too


No lightsnake, that is YOUR logic, nobody else's. There are 7 forms of lightsaber combat, and those forms were designed long before double lightsabers came about, so when one is used, it becomes a unique form in its own. And yes, everything shows his weapon was unique, and his style was unique. And no, it is stated that he created the weapon, and was the FIRST to use it, so your arguing against Nai, me, and facts.
And his hilt was small, so that would make all the difference in the world considering its a lot easier for him to wield it with 1 hand, while the rest of the double bladed sabers are wielded with 2 hands. So no, you're wrong again.

Or it simply means the form is incoporated into the new weapon, that simple.

And once again, we see Kun use two hands on his weapon several times, do you keep ignoring that? Where does it say he created the saber? It said earliest known. Nothing has ever said definitively he created the weapon himself.
And Dooku's hilt was curved and he used it one handed. Unique weapon, unique way of wielding it, big deal

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Or it simply means the form is incoporated into the new weapon, that simple.

And once again, we see Kun use two hands on his weapon several times, do you keep ignoring that? Where does it say he created the saber? It said earliest known. Nothing has ever said definitively he created the weapon himself.
And Dooku's hilt was curved and he used it one handed. Unique weapon, unique way of wielding it, big deal

Lightsnake it's cute how you switch your arguments from "prove it was his weapon" to "well prove he used a different form in his unique weapon". Really, your debating skills make me giggle.

And once again, Kun used both 2 hands and 1 hand because the hilt was short. The other double bladed saber holders all used 2 hands because the hilt was 2 sabers combined, and the beams were larger than they were, so you're wrong yet again.. And yes, he created the weapon, so quiet.

Thank you Sama, perhaps you should take over, I get tired of arguing with ignorance.

It says he modified his saber, so? Of course he modified it himself, I'm questioning if he was the first to do so, even if he's the earliest known. A modification is not a new invention.

maul's style is Juyo, it's never said to be unique. By this logic, Dooku's style is unique...hell, considering how diverse sabers are, all styles are unique.

Take over? Hell no! It's Saturday night, baby! Ms. Advent needs to go clubbing.

This is too easy and I'm nursing a hangover, so somebody needs to argue with stupidity.

Intimidation is a sure sign of immaturity. So's boasting and Ad hominem.

I'm asking him to prove something, Sama...perhaps you can? I want a single source, that's it

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Intimidation is a sure sign of immaturity. So's boasting and Ad hominem.

I'm asking him to prove something, Sama...perhaps you can? I want a single source, that's it

I'm not boasting, I'm shocked at how ridiculous you are. You've been on this forum for god knows how long and yet anytime you have no argument, you tend to try and play stupid, and fail.

You keep saying that and never back up your own argument definitively.

I'm sick of you putting people down when you argue against them. It's tiresome.

I would try being nice if lightsnake made a conscious effort at being smarter, or at least offer logical arguments.

How do we know that, Sama? Does anything say he invented the DBL? A modification isn't an invention and despite that he's the first to be seen using it...

Maul's form is still Juyo, it doesn't make it unique. Where's it stated his form is unique? We know he's a Tera Kasi user...And Shadow Hunter didn't mention his saber form. Like I said, by this logic, everything is unique. Obi-wan's style, Kit Fisto's, Palpatine's, Dooku's..unique hilts and weapons.

It doesn't matter what weapon you use, every saber is unique to a degree. Yoda had to integrate a lot just to fight and as Qui-Gon proved, Ataru need not always involve flips and twirls

Originally posted by Lightsnake
How do we know that, Sama? Does anything say he invented the DBL? A modification isn't an invention and despite that he's the first to be seen using it...

Maul's form is still Juyo, it doesn't make it unique. Where's it stated his form is unique? We know he's a Tera Kasi user...And Shadow Hunter didn't mention his saber form. Like I said, by this logic, everything is unique. Obi-wan's style, Kit Fisto's, Palpatine's, Dooku's..unique hilts and weapons.

It doesn't matter what weapon you use, every saber is unique to a degree. Yoda had to integrate a lot just to fight and as Qui-Gon proved, Ataru need not always involve flips and twirls

"New Modification", first to use it, and thats disregarding the common knowledge that Kun created it. Stop playing stupid. Mauls Juyo is different than the actual Juyo form invented for a single blade, so it is unique. And no, YOUR logic is wrong, because Dooku's hilt affects nothing, nor does anybody else unless they're using a double blade. So again you are wrong.

Prove it, please

We both just did. If you have no argument or are in denial, then don't post here.

You've proven NOTHING. Find me ONE SOURCE that says Kun was the inventor

You're an imbecile lightsnake, and you have lost yet another argument.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
You've proven NOTHING. Find me ONE SOURCE that says Kun was the inventor

starwars.com

^

"It should be noted that Exar Kun was the first to wield a double-bladed lightsaber."

Thank God. Maybe now he'll shut up.

While the databank is hardly the most trustworthy and up to date source, thank you Motoko. All I needed or wanted

Good, now you can shut up about this.

Probably Exar and Ulic. If Force powers were then Ulic and Exar would definately win but since this is a lightsabers only battle it'd probably be somewhat close just because Vaapad is supposed to be good at fighting Sith, right? What form does Ulic use, btw?

We've established Exar created the saber. Doesn't mean he would win

No no, WE'VE established it, youve been arguing facts the entire day.

You couldn't provide a single source for anything you've said. You are totally incapable of proving up so you let others do it for you

Originally posted by Advent
starwars.com

^

"It should be noted that Exar Kun was the first to wield a double-bladed lightsaber."

To be fair, it is behind the scenes, and it is quite clear (in my eyes) that it basically means that Exar Kun is first shown to have wielded the double bladed saber. I'm not disputing that he may have been the first, but it's possible that he wasn't.

Originally posted by darthsith19
What form does Ulic use, btw?

That'd be an unknown. If I were to take a guess, I'd either say Ataru or Djem So, just because Ulic seems to take the aggressive, and a few other things (his strikes, events on Onderon, etc.).

Though, that's purely speculation - we really don't know.

@ Nebaris:

No.

lol.. How's the clubbing Sama?

Most likely Ataru - http://swtimeline.ru/?comics=252&page=05 (top panel). Is it even definite that the standard forms had been invented in that era.

'No.'

Ok...

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
lol.. How's the clubbing Sama?

Not working out very good obviously. You see, when your best friend is sick. Your "boyfriend" (term used loosely) is apparently "working" (working on a new piece of ass, I bet), and your car is not operational, and everyone else that does have a car, is already out having a blast, getting drunk, and so on - the term "clubbing" transforms into "sitting on my ass, drinking alone".

Ah well, there's always next weekend, but clearly, I'll have to call people before they leave their damn houses.

Advent = Paris Hilton wannabee...

Paris Hilton?

Yeah right, I haven't even made my sextape yet.

Originally posted by Advent
Not working out very good obviously. You see, when your best friend is sick. Your "boyfriend" (term used loosely) is apparently "working" (working on a new piece of ass, I bet), and your car is not operational, and everyone else that does have a car, is already out having a blast, getting drunk, and so on - the term "clubbing" transforms into "sitting on my ass, drinking alone".

Ah well, there's always next weekend, but clearly, I'll have to call people before they leave their damn houses.


It's better than nursing a headache with some absinthe, which I'm about to do.

Why exactly does Exar have to know elements of Makashi?! If it's not mentioned anywhere, then, why would he? Because he uses one hand on a double bladed lightsaber? http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=232&page=06 , http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=232&page=07 , http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=232&page=08 , http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=232&page=09 . Whoa!! Maul knows Makashi too!!!

lol

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Now since this is ONLY a lightsaber fight, Windu can't use his shatterpoint.

The starting post says "no offensive force powers". Shatterpoint is just Mace's way to look at certain situations, things, opponents.



Do you have any arguments, dude.

It's a fact that Mace, Kun and Ulic were all lightsaber prodigies. But unless Kun and Ulic Mace did have five decades of training with 40 years to perfect his own lightsaber style. How would Ulic and Kun be better ? Answer: They won't.
And Mace himself stated that Depa's bladework did surpass his own Vaapad meaning that in a sheer lightsaber fight without any force powers involved (e.g. Mace's Shatterpoint) Depa would be able to defeat him.

So I have some arguments why Depa and Mace would take it while you have nothing to say that Ulic and Exar would win. Think about it.

Pretty much. Good job, Nai.

I am confused as to why all of a sudden quantity(years of training), means they are more powerful. Dooku had 80 years of training but could he beat Sidious, or Kun? No.. All of a sudden this "shatterpoint" is the x factor to any fight?

No, but it's definite icing on the cake. Mace could throw something like 6 punches before Kar could even blink. That speaks for his speed. He could hold off Sidious' lightning. That says a lot for both his strength in the force and physically. He also has mastered one if not the deadliest style of combat.

It's not definitive what are you talking about? Kun and Ulic were #1 and #2 in an order of thousands. I never said they would curbstomp anybody but Kun is equal to or better than Mace, and Ulic is at best on Mace's level.

The biggest problem would be the cohesion between the two Vaapad masters, best friends and master and apprentice. Exar may have the raw skill to take Mace, given that he tooled a respected and feared Jedi Master... However, Ulic's case might be a bit shaky at the moment.

We've seen him hold off the Cathar Jedi while separated from the force. With more information we could quantify his disadvantage and put this into perspective... but for now I'd give this to Mace and Depa, if only barely and if only for their cohesion.

Ulic did stalemate Exar Kun ( who as we know, perfected his unique form of double bladed fighting) who not too long after killed a Jedi master who had 600 years to practice and perfect his duelling style.

What I am trying to get at is, if you were able to stalemate a lightsaber prodigy that so easily defeated a 600 year old battlemaster, then who's to say that you yourself weren't a lightsaber master aswell?



Given the circumstances (that the opponents CAN use the force to augment their fighting style) then how can Depa capitalize on the fact that she has better "bladework?" Afterall with the force, Ulic was able to stalemate a lightsaber prodigy that easily defeated a 600 year old Jedi master duelist. Without the force, he lasted against an angry Cathar Jedi.


Depa and Mace may of been excellent duelists of their time, but so what? The omniscient narrator described Ulic and Kun as "master swordsmen." The author of the comics just did not decide to explore all the details of each of their forms.

What makes you think Mace and Depa's grasp of the force to sustain themselves is worse than the others'? Kun's most likely too arrogant to ever try that. And Mace's able to top many other Jedi in the order, including centuries old masters himself. The only ones who ever beat him were Dooku and Yoda

Originally posted by zephiel7
Ulic did stalemate Exar Kun ( who as we know, perfected his unique form of double bladed fighting) who not too long after killed a Jedi master who had 600 years to practice and perfect his duelling style.

What I am trying to get at is, if you were able to stalemate a lightsaber prodigy that so easily defeated a 600 year old battlemaster, then who's to say that you yourself weren't a lightsaber master aswell?

Given the circumstances (that the opponents CAN use the force to augment their fighting style) then how can Depa capitalize on the fact that she has better "bladework?" Afterall with the force, Ulic was able to stalemate a lightsaber prodigy that easily defeated a 600 year old Jedi master duelist. Without the force, he lasted against an angry Cathar Jedi.

Depa and Mace may of been excellent duelists of their time, but so what? The omniscient narrator described Ulic and Kun as "master swordsmen." The author of the comics just did not decide to explore all the details of each of their forms.

Depa did have better bladework than Mace (who perfected Vaapad, one if not the deadliest form of fighting), who not too long after beat the Sith Lord that a 900 year old Jedi Master couldn't. See how stupid it sounds?

Well, sure Ulic is a prodigy, but, all your reasoning is off. Okay, also, Kun didn't easily defeat Vodo. It was a long fight.

Better bladework is huge in a lightsaber fight, it's basically the most important thing, don't diminish it. Ulic has shown us nothing in the force beyond Depa, either.

Exactly. I'm pretty sure we also have quotes of Mace and Depa being master swords(wo)men. The specifics we do know about their style of combat is that it is one of the deadliest forms, and it is even more effective against the dark side.

One thing to add, the Vodo fight wasn't long at all. He tried to convince Vodo to join the dark side and when Vodo wouldn't, he opened his second blade and tooled him in mere seconds.

Close, but no cigar. Read the issue after, where it describes the previous issue, then come back.

The fight was described as epic, which suggests that it was pretty close. Kun also had many advantages on his side. Kun was also never actually able to outduel Vodo either, but had to actually break Vodo's stick.

All that fight suggest about Kun is that his physical strength was immense, and that he wasn't able to win through sheer dueling skill even with the countless advantages he had, and had to use one of Vodo's disadvantages (his inferior staff) to win.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Close, but no cigar. Read the issue after, where it describes the previous issue, then come back.

Show me this imaginary information.

What do you mean "read the next issue that describes the previous"? Do you mean the opening summary of the events that happened? If so, I read it - it doesn't say anything. I'm guessing that's not what you meant, but I clearly have no clue.

Depa having better bladework is an opinion from Mace, not fact. It's Mace's biased opinion towards his 'daughter like figure.' The fact that she has "better bladework" is never demonstrated.

Ulic on the otherhand was actually shown to tie Exar Kun. What has Depa Bilaba demonstrated? You're arguments are based on someone's opinions while my argument (that Ulic is stronger) is based on the fact he tied Exar Kun.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
It's not definitive what are you talking about? Kun and Ulic were #1 and #2 in an order of thousands. I never said they would curbstomp anybody but Kun is equal to or better than Mace, and Ulic is at best on Mace's level.

Wow. Mace and Depa were most likely number #2 and #3 (in terms of sheer lightsaber handling ablity) in an order of 10,000 people that were all trained from infancy on in contrary to the TOTJ era people (see Ruusan Reformation + Jedi vs Sith comics). So what ?



Oh my...Exar "perfected" his own fighting style in less than six months without ever using it in any form of lightsaber action (training, direct confrontation) ? How good must Mace be then having 40 years of time to perfect his style, multiple opponents to spare with (Dooku, Yoda) and possibly thousands of hours practice fights against Depa aside from his normal combat action which was enough to give him a legendary status ? Hmm ?

And I'd like you to show me were Vodo's duelling skills are mentioned. Was he a prodigy ? Did he face any serious lightsaber fights ? Mace was able to go toe to toe with Yoda in terms of lightsaber duels who is just the "most powerful Jedi ever" up to the time of ROTS (meaning more powerful than Vodo or anybody Kun faced), destroyed "legions" of Dark Siders before and was able to keep anybody in the order (including notorious lightsaber duellist like Dooku, who could defeat council members without any use of the force) under his belt. Hmm...



Whoopie. Let's just ignore how Depa was the second youngest Jedi Master ever (after Mace) as well as the second youngest Council Member. I guess she has no force powers at all. Especially since "bladework" most likely includes everything needed for lightsaber combat (like augmenting her combat abilities) and the skills she displayed in Shatterpoint.

Really. If you want to argue like this I could just say that the on panel actions show Ulic and Kun hacking at everybody else like ROTJ Luke "baseball bat" Skywalker did when he freaked out against Vader meaning that they won't even be a threat for Mace and Depa in terms of sheer lightsaber abilities...



Wow. Let's create some senseless "arguments".
In order to use Vaapad you have to master form IV, VI and VII. So what were Depa and Mace ? No "masters" ? And the author of the comics doesn't explore the details of their forms because the "forms" didn't exist when the comics were written. Still they are very clearly shown to use form V since they fight similar to Luke (both hands at their blade, wide and powerful swings) as it can be seen in their duel as well as in the Ulic vs Cay fight and Kun's duel against Vodo.

Kun introduces some other elements in his form (most likely Makashi that's what the inventors of the lightsaber forms are suggesting at least) while fighting with his unique weapon. Still...what would that do to people who mastered 5 forms (I, IV, V, VII, Vaapad) and have seen all other forms of lightsaber combat in action and spared against them (at least Mace) multiple times (Dooku - form II).

The mere fact that we have only lightsaber prodigies involved in this fight when the two PT people had much more actual training time and after this far more time to perfect there force powers and lightsaber abilities (aside from more actual action and sparing fights) simply dictates that the people with more experience, training and actual combat experience will win. This is not even thinking about the advantage Depa and Mace have because of having mastered the "main style" (form V) of their opponents and Mace's Shatterpoint ability.

Originally posted by Advent
Paris Hilton?

Yeah right, I haven't even made my sextape yet.

Ooo!

*anticipation*

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/6797/sign7bz.png

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=262&page=03

"After a furious battle..."

He didn't waste Vodo.

Nice observation. It should also be taken into account that Kun was only able to win because he was able to cut through Vodo's staff, in other words his winning was due to Vodo's inferior staff not being able to handle the strength that Kun was able to put into his finishing blow. This is not a testament to his dueling ability but just goes to show that Vodo's staff could not withstand a blow from a saber going at the speed and power that Kun was able to generate.

For the last time Nebaris get it through your thick skull. The STAFF WAS STATED TO BE MORE POWERFUL THAN A LIGHTSABER. Therefore this is a testament to Kun's strength and dueling abilities. And the scans are clear. Kun was talking with Vodo and mocking him and when Vodo said no, he tooled him, simple.

Before I reply, can you please explain in what way is it more powerful than a lightsaber, and provide proof?

read TSW.

I have read TSW. I would just like to hear your explanation first, so as to give the best rebuttal.

What explanation do you want? Actually I believe its in the 1st issue of DLOTS, before or during his first fight with Kun..

For instance, how do you interpret the statement? Cutting power?

No, the fact that it could withstand a lightsaber blast. The fact that Kun broke it is a testament of his power, not a fault of the stick.

That statement was clearly wrong - the narrator was indirectly voicing Vodo, Vodo was wrong. The statement simply can't be right (at least if you interpret it in this way) because Kun was able to generate enough strength to slice through Vodo's staff, ergo the staff is not fully able to withstand a lightsaber, and thus in an inferior weapon.

As I have already said, it is a testament to Kun's strength but virtually a moot point in terms of dueling in a situation such as this because all duelists wield the saber, which Kun won't just be able to slice through.

the statement was wrong? You're arguing with the narrator? Please.. Don't even bother.

The narrator was indirectly voicing Vodo, I'm arguing with Vodo, not the narrator - he was wrong and payed the ultimate price for his false belief.

No, the Narrator stated what he stated, not Vodo.. Don't argue with the narrator.

I know you said that Vodo's stick is the only reason Kun won. I'll call bullshit if you don't mind, Vodo went there with the intent to stop Exar Kun. And we know he's capable of disarming his opponents (his duel against Exar, he put him on his ass twice), and can find his opponents balance points due to his "skill of long experience", so the fact is - if he could have stopped Exar Kun, he would have. Since he didn't, he cannot do it in either a duel or with the Force.

This just goes to show that Vodo cannot outduel Exar Kun, while I'd support the fact Kun can outduel Vodo. Given when he was only a padawan, he gave Vodo trouble once he got two blades. Now, he's a master lightsaber duelist, and is better than Ulic - who I'd easily argue could best Vodo in sheer lightsaber to stick combat.

Anyways, if you'll notice even before cleaves Vodo in half, Vodo admits defeat. So, obviously he could not beat Exar either way. Exar is a superior duelist, and a superior Force user. Simple as that.

Oh, and a "furious battle" means exactly jack shit, AOTC novel describes Anakin and Dooku's battle similarly - so I guess Dooku didn't "waste" Anakin? Please. Exar was toying with Vodo the entire time - given he doesn't reveal his double bladed lightsaber until he's positive Vodo won't turn, and the fact the man is taunting Vodo the entire fight.

And Nebaris, where was the fight described as "epic"? More bullshit?

lol..

'I know you said that Vodo's stick is the only reason Kun won.'

ORL? You must have missed the part where I stated that it was a testament to Kun's strength...

'I'll call bullshit if you don't mind, Vodo went there with the intent to stop Exar Kun. And we know he's capable of disarming his opponents (his duel against Exar, he put him on his ass twice), and can find his opponents balance points due to his "skill of long experience", so the fact is - if he could have stopped Exar Kun, he would have. Since he didn't, he cannot do it in either a duel or with the Force.'

Mostly irrelevant, and was I even arguing that Vodo would be able to defeat Kun? I was just pointing out that Kun had many unfair advantages on his side in defeating Vodo, many which wouldn't apply to this kind of fight.

yes, like being the superior duelist, superior force user, and possessing superior strength.

'And Nebaris, where was the fight described as "epic"? More bullshit?'

I can't remember..

Originally posted by Sith'ari
'And Nebaris, where was the fight described as "epic"? More bullshit?'

I can't remember..

You can't remember because it was never stated. It's a pretty simple concept really. The books' summaries don't say it, the actual comic doesn't say it either, the NEC doesn't say it. Nothing does.

So you're either delusional, a liar, or you're thinking of a different battle (probably Revan vs. Malak).

It was stated in a guide, I just can't remember. Does it matter, Jim posted something just as effective.

Originally posted by Sith'ari
It was stated in a guide, I just can't remember. Does it matter, Jim posted something just as effective.

No, it wasn't. Provide the exact quote and source, or as I suspect, it doesn't exist. You just say you "can't remember", but now it's in a guide? I'm pretty sure you'rrrrrrrrre lying.

And yes, it matters - I simply love to call people out on lies. If you're going to state something, provide the source or don't say it at all. I'm just teaching you a simple lesson.

Well thank you Miss Mokoto.

Originally posted by Advent
I know you said that Vodo's stick is the only reason Kun won. I'll call bullshit if you don't mind, Vodo went there with the intent to stop Exar Kun. And we know he's capable of disarming his opponents (his duel against Exar, he put him on his ass twice), and can find his opponents balance points due to his "skill of long experience", so the fact is - if he could have stopped Exar Kun, he would have. Since he didn't, he cannot do it in either a duel or with the Force.

This just goes to show that Vodo cannot outduel Exar Kun, while I'd support the fact Kun can outduel Vodo. Given when he was only a padawan, he gave Vodo trouble once he got two blades. Now, he's a master lightsaber duelist, and is better than Ulic - who I'd easily argue could best Vodo in sheer lightsaber to stick combat.

Anyways, if you'll notice even before cleaves Vodo in half, Vodo admits defeat. So, obviously he could not beat Exar either way. Exar is a superior duelist, and a superior Force user. Simple as that.

Oh, and a "furious battle" means exactly jack shit, AOTC novel describes Anakin and Dooku's battle similarly - so I guess Dooku didn't "waste" Anakin? Please. Exar was toying with Vodo the entire time - given he doesn't reveal his double bladed lightsaber until he's positive Vodo won't turn, and the fact the man is taunting Vodo the entire fight.

And Nebaris, where was the fight described as "epic"? More bullshit?

Agreed. But they didn't have a force battle, and we can't be sure.

Two blades doesn't make you uber, but, you can be more efficient with them. Anyway, maybe Ulic could beat Vodo. Maybe it's not that hard to best him. What makes him so great?

They don't have a force fight at all...

A "Furious battle" goes to say that is wasn't a walk in the park for Kun. Taunting Vodo? Not really. Oh yeah, and he's still trying to turn him after he reveals his second blade. http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=261&page=25

Basically, yes, Exar is better, but, not by a huge gap and, that doesn't even say a whole lot for him as a duelist. Vodo seems good, but, truth is, he isn't.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Agreed. But they didn't have a force battle, and we can't be sure.

Two blades doesn't make you uber, but, you can be more efficient with them. Anyway, maybe Ulic could beat Vodo. Maybe it's not that hard to best him. What makes him so great?

They don't have a force fight at all...

A "Furious battle" goes to say that is wasn't a walk in the park for Kun. Taunting Vodo? Not really. Oh yeah, and he's still trying to turn him after he reveals his second blade. http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=261&page=25

Basically, yes, Exar is better, but, not by a huge gap and, that doesn't even say a whole lot for him as a duelist. Vodo seems good, but, truth is, he isn't.

Wrong. Exar Kun is better by a huge gap. Notice how he was better as even a Padawan. And yes he was taunting Vodo, and when Vodo said no he lit the second blade and tooled him. And 2 blades doesn't equate to efficiency, that's just ridiculous. Would you like to show me who was greater than Vodo among the Jedi(excluding Kun and Ulic)

..wat kind of a thread is this

Greater than Vodo? Just:
Nomi, Thon, Ood, Arca, Vrook, Kavar, Zhar, Aleco, Duron, Guun Han Saresh, Shaela Nur, Vandar...Probably Kreia, too.

And no, Vodo refused at the START of the fight

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Greater than Vodo? Just:
Nomi, Thon, Ood, Arca, Vrook, Kavar, Zhar, Aleco, Duron, Guun Han Saresh, Shaela Nur, Vandar...Probably Kreia, too.

And no, Vodo refused at the START of the fight

Arguing with facts again lightsnake? Since when are ANY of those greater than Vodo, or are you just listing anybody you can think of and calling it fact? Yea sounds about right. And I said during HIS time. KOTOR was 40 years later. And no, Vodo DIDNT refuse because he came there to stop Exar Kun, stop arguing with facts.

Umm, why aren't they better than Vodo? No reasons? Gotcha.
Oh yeah, and Vodo refused to join the Sith at the beginning of the fight.

Uh why aren't they? Why are they? Oh that's right, your assumptions=your assumptions and not fact. Great argument though Jim.. And what does Vodo refusing to join the sith have to do with anything? Irrelevant?