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Many people have asked questions such as "Is there a God?" and many have came to conclusion that yes there is and just as many have come to the conclusion to no there isn't. But shall we look deeper into that. I would like to thank a few people first:

Regret
Alliance
debbiejo
Evil Dead

First we need to be capable of answering some questions; was there a beginning or not?

We have on one side Gensis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" which suggests without a doubt that a beginning was noted.

On the other we have the "Matter is self-existing and not created," and that is a concise statement of the atheist's belief. Okay so the question is which one is true? Both cannot be true. That much is for sure; correct. Stop me know if I am wrong Evil Dead.

Continuing onward we need to take into account "Matter is self-existing and not created" which means matter has been around forever. All the galaxies are slowly moving away from one another; the universe is expanding. But wait, if it is expanding it must have started somewhere. At a point, at a beginning perhaps.

Next we move on to the Sun itself. Said to be around 4.6 billion years old about half way through its life which is said to be around 13 billion years.

Basic information on the Sun:
Every second that passes, the sun compresses 564 million tons of hydrogen into 560 million tons of helium with 4 million tons of matter released as energy. It generates this energy through thermonuclear fusion.

I would like to quote Dr. Carl Sagan:
"everything that ever was or is or ever will be" saying nothing can be added to it to improve or repair it meaning that the Sun cannot heal itself. Now with all that energy you would think used up most of the hydrogen it started with but it has only used up 2%. That still leaves 98% of the hydrogen it started with.

Okay so with that we can say there was a beginning. But now the question is cut into 2 once more:

1.) Was the creation caused?
2.) Was the creation not caused?

So far so good. We can say now that all had a beginning. In order for matter to come out of nothing, all of our scientific laws dealing with the conservation of matter/energy would have to be wrong, invalidating all of chemistry. All of our laws of conservation of angular momentum would have to be wrong, invalidating all of physics. All of our laws of conservation of electric charge would have to be wrong, invalidating all of electronics.In order to believe matter is uncaused, one has to discard known laws and principles of science.

Okay so the creation did have a cause. But was it from this so called God? Is it possible that God could proven true or false? Humans have a complex personality. It seems absurd that such complexity could have emerged from nothing, with no cause. Rather, the human personality would need to be made by a Being with the same, if not greater, complex personality.

Understand so far? I don't want to lose anyone. If you think about it everything has a cause. The words you were reading were caused by me striking a keyboard on my computer. So with that in mind you could say that the world we see and all beyond it has a cause.

Themost complexity is found in the human body. Namely the human personality. So the universe must be at least as personal as we are.

The universe has an amazing amount of unity and diversity in it. Imagine life without colour, music and rainbows. Imagine not being able to imagine. Humans have emotions and intellect, which bring about hopes, dreams and fears. They also bring about the recurring Why Am I Here? What Is My Purpose? questions.

Humans have the ability to make their mark on this world, for good or for bad. This is why we see extremes such as Adolf Hitler and Mother Teresa. Humans are not automatically 'clued in' about the existence of a Higher Being. But the incredible number of spiritual paths points to the fact that most people are interested in finding out...

Still with me? I could slow down if you want to. The only way we have been told of a Higher Being as through religions:

List of Religions with Higher Being
Animism is the worldview that spirits and forces have power over human lives, and that humans must find out which spirits are impacting them. But there is no Higher Being behind it all, and therefore no communication.

Atheism is the worldview that there is no Higher Being of any kind. Since no-one has all knowledge in the world, this is not a position that can be defended or taken seriously. Clearly, there is no communication, as there is no-one to communicate.

Buddhism is the worldview that there is no Higher Being of any kind, and that the universe has no beginning or end. Guatama Buddha never claimed to be 'God', and he never claimed that Buddhism would lead to 'God'. Since there is no Higher Being, there is no communication.
Christianity is the worldview that there is a personal God, who has communicated to humans through the Bible.

Hinduism is the worldview that the universe is an illusion. Some Hindus believe there are 33 million gods, while others believe that there is one ultimate reality, Brahman. Yet, Brahman is not a personal Higher Being. He is more like a force, who is completely uninvolved with the universe (which is an illusion anyway). While there are sacred writings in Hinduism, there is no communication from a personal Higher Being.

Islam is the worldview that one God, Allah, brought everything into existence. Through the prophet Mohammed, Allah gave to humans the Koran. Allah has personality, but he is not the same God as the God of Christianity. Clearly, Islam is a candidate for a communication.

Judaism is the worldview that one God, Yahweh, brought everything into existence. Yahweh communicated to His people Israel, by inspiring various people to pen the Old Testament (the Jewish Bible).

Various more recent spiritual paths have emerged, such as Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphianism, Scientology, Christian Science, the Unification Church, etc etc. All of these must be rejected as candidates, since they have only emerged in the past 1 or 2 centuries. Surely a personal Higher Being would not wait until the very recent past to communicate with people...

Now we can decide that only Christianity, Islam and Judaism emerge as serious contenders for a communication from a Higher Being.

Of the Bible (Christianity), the Koran (Islam) and the Hebrew Scriptures (Judaism), the one that stands out is the Bible. The difference with the Bible is that it focuses on Jesus, a carpenter from the Jewish town of Nazareth, who told people that he was God in the flesh. We have looked at the evidence for these claims elsewhere, and it is more than a reasonable conclusion that Jesus was exactly who he said he was: God.

But is Jesus who he claims he is? Jesus was either a:

Liar (he knew he was deceiving everyone)
Lunatic (he had no idea he was completely mistaken)
Lord (he was who he said he was)

There are no in-between options here! It has to be 1 of the 3 choices listed above. Jesus cannot merely be a "good moral teacher". A good moral teacher would not make false claims about himself...A good moral teacher would not completely deceive a group of his closest friends...

When we look at the records of his life and words, found in the Bible, we see neither a liar nor a lunatic. Jesus spoke of truth and light, and said that the truth would set people free. He modelled integrity of character. He never showed favouritism or hypocrisy, and often turned the accepted, but wrong values of the day, on their head. His life completely matched his claims.

In the same way, Jesus was most definitely not a lunatic. Lunatics have unbalanced minds, and live erratic lifestyles. Inconsistencies are a hallmark, and they can be mental and emotional wrecks. Jesus was a man who displayed calm under pressure, a sound mind, and a balanced and consistent lifestyle.

First, we concluded that it is definitely reasonable to accept that there is a Higher Being of some sort. Next, we asked whether it was possible to discover who this Higher Being was. We then showed that beyond a reasonable doubt, this Higher Being was Jesus. Remember, that we only need to establish this kind of 'proof' beyond a reasonable doubt, not beyond any doubt.

God does exist today, and the personal, moral and philosophical knowledge of many people adds further evidence to this. No-one can ever prove that God exists by scientific methods. We should be thankful for that: what kind of 'God' would that be? No mystery, nothing hidden, everything reducible to a set of principles. God is far bigger than that.

Links:
http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html

long post.

Most of your claims I do not argue with because I find little error with the reasoning, but it isn't conclusive all the same. A higher being being the impetus for the organization of matter does not necessitate communication in any way. Given this the major portion of your argument is rendered inadequate in supporting validity in the Biblical God against outside criticism.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
Various more recent spiritual paths have emerged, such as Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphianism, Scientology, Christian Science, the Unification Church, etc etc. All of these must be rejected as candidates, since they have only emerged in the past 1 or 2 centuries. Surely a personal Higher Being would not wait until the very recent past to communicate with people...

Now we can decide that only Christianity, Islam and Judaism emerge as serious contenders for a communication from a Higher Being.

Any religion that claims to follow the Bible, and Christ, may be just as valid as any other Christian religion. Christianity is not a religion, it is a group of religions that have sprung up following Christ's ascension. With few existing prior to the past few hundred years. Catholocism is the only one with a duration advantage on Christian belief, and that is not completely tenable.

edit: And Mormons claim to be Christians.

Mainstream Christianity is relatively new. If duration is the requirement, only Judaism of the three holds a duration advantage. If mainstream Christianity can make the claim, so can the groups that you excluded.




If you are a Lutheran, your denomination was founded by Martin Luther, an ex-monk of the Catholic Church, in the year 1517.

If you belong to the Church of England, your denomination was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the Pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to re-marry. The Church of England separated itself from the Catholic Church under Henry VIII but it didn't actually become a new Protestant religion until the reign of his son, Edward VI.

If you are a Presbyterian, your denomination was founded by John Knox in Scotland in the year 1560.

If you are a Protestant Episcopalian, your denomination was an offshoot of the Church of England founded by Samuel Seabury in the American colonies in the 17th century.

If your are a Congregationalist, your denomination was originated by Robert Browne in Holland in 1582.

If you are a Methodist, your denomination was launched by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.

If you are LDS or "Mormon" (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints), Joseph Smith Jr. started your religion in Fayette, NY, on April 6th, 1830.

If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your denomination to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1605.

If you are of the Dutch Reformed church, you recognize Michaelis Jones as founder, because he originated your denomination in New York in 1628.

If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.

If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year in which your religion was born and to Mrs. Mary Baker Eddy as its founder.

If you consider yourself a member of one of the Pentecostal churches, your movement began in Topeka, KS (1901) and Los Angeles (1906), in reaction to perceived loss of evangelical fervor among Methodists and others.

If you call yourself a Mennonite, your movement was named after Menno Simons, a Catholic priest for 12 years, who left the Church to join the conservative Anabaptist wing.

The Amish, started by Jacob Amman around 1693, are just one of many different church bodies within the Mennonite community in the U.S.

If you belong to one of the religious organizations known as "Church of the Nazarene", "Pentecostal Gospel", "Holiness Church", "Pilgrim Holiness Church", "Jehovah's Witnesses ", your denomination is one of the many thousands of new sects and religions founded by men within the past several hundred years.

If you are a member of one of the Orthodox Eastern Churches your church separated from the Catholic Church in 1054 in the Eastern Schism.

If you are Jewish, Abraham became the first Jew when God promised him: "I will make you a great nation...". Your religion was founded by God in the Jewish calendar year 2049 (1711 BC), over 3700 years ago. God revealed Himself to the Jews through the Prophets and promised to send a Messiah. Jesus Christ, a Jew from the House of David, came to this world as His only begotten Son in fulfilment of the scriptures.

ong one too.

I try shifty

The majority of mine is merely timeframe for most Christian religions.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
Many people have asked questions such as "Is there a God?"

Listen, when it comes down to it, you have an absolute zero chance of proving without the shadow of a doubt that God exist. The only thing you end up with is faith; you either have it or you don't and asking someone to accept your own personal faith as undeniable proof is ridiculous.

Do a little scientific experiment for me, humor me if you will, ok?

Put all your faith into your left hand and take a cr@p into your right. Then look a both your hands at the same time and tell me what you end up with.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
Regret
Alliance
debbiejo
Evil Dead


I'M ONLY SECOND!!!!

And btw, as usual, your logic sucks and makes no sense.

I also find it that a Mormon, an Athiest, a Spiritualist, and an I don't remember what religoin EvilDead is made the list.

Thats a rather diverse group for all of us to be wrong

Originally posted by Alliance
I'M ONLY SECOND!!!!

And btw, as usual, your logic sucks and makes no sense.

I also find it that a Mormon, an Athiest, a Spiritualist, and an I don't remember what religoin EvilDead is made the list.

Thats a rather diverse group for all of us to be wrong
Haha! You're #2, you're poop.

The funny thing is unlike ESB 1123 or whatever, I'm free from that system of oppression he calls his Faith.

You don't need a higher being to equate this Life with importance.

The sickening thing about religious extemist thinkers like himself is that they think that if there is no God, then life is meaningless...and therefore assume that Athiest and Agnostics have an immoral outlook and mentality automatically.

As if our lives and our individual selves are worthless unless some higher sentience created all of it....you're trapped in this oppressive state of mind, devaluing life in general, and that's sad. Oh so sad ...

Preach all you want brother....you will never convince me of anything other than the extant of your ignorance.

BTW, for such a long post, you had so little to say

aye aye cap'n.

Matter cannot be created nor destroyed now.....based on the physical laws of the universe at they are right now. There's no way of knowing what the laws of our universe were at it's very inception...before the chaos settled down and fundemental laws fell into place. Furthermore, there is no way of knowing if the fundemental forces of our universe even originated in our universe. You quoted Carl Sagan in your post. You may have also heard him lecture on the relation of matter and energy. Matter was not released at the inception of our universe, it was created.....and eventually will be destroyed, it just can't be right now. Matter is deteriorated energy. One day in the far distant future when all stars have burned out and the universe is a cold, dark, desolate place.....even matter will deteriorate to the point of non-existence. Where did the energy in our universe come from? We don't know yet.....but lack of knowledge on the subject is in no way cause to jump to a fantasitcal conclusion like an all powerful being who just blinked it into existence, I Dream of Jeannie style. The popular theory right now is M-theory.........that the collsion of two or more other universes created the bang to induce this universe. Where did the energy in these other universes come from? Impossible to tell as we only know the laws of physics of our own universe.

I'm not entirely sure the statistical information you have posted about the sun is completely accurate but I'm too lazy to look for myself. The "not heal" portion is however wrong. The sun is a huge fusion generator, using as you mentioned, hydrogen. Hydrogen is the most abundant element in our universe, the sun is constantly re-fueling. The reason the life of the sun is theorised is that is the point at which it is believed the sun will be burning more fuel than it is able to pull into itself.....thus deteriorating.



why? how do you get "no cause"? There was an extremely great cause to our complex personalities. Natural selection ensured the most intelligent of our species would survive to reproduce......ensuring each generation onward would become more intelligent. Once our intelligence reached the point of creating civilizations.......farming the land, breeding livestock.......our intelligence was no longer needed to survive in the wild. Our time was no longer spent hunting or gathering food........which left a lot of free time to observe the world around us. While observing the world around us, we had plenty of free time to recreate what we saw......inventing art.....reproduce the sounds we heard, inventing music.......combine our invented music to create more complex music.....here we are today, millenia later. Our "complex personalities" are a direct result of free time to think......as the intelligence we developed to survive is no longer needed for that purpose and is free to be put to any other task a man can dream of.

I really see no mystery here.

I agree very much with Evil Dead.! (why he chose that name..I don't know and it's scary!!)


I should be higher up on the list...


I believe there is something with intelligence that has been part of this whole cause and effect ...........Everything seems to run in cycles....Everything is cause and effect...

Evil Dead just explains things much better than me.......though I also agree much with Atlantis and Shaky too, to some point.

Higher Being? Like my mother? Grandmother?

No silly person......A trapeze artist.....