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Bane & Bandon vs. ROTS Anakin & Mace Windu. Which side wins?

Bandon gets tore up pretty damn quick, by either Mace or Anakin. Then they team up and kill Bane. I think...

Based purely on speculation (which is all you'll get from anyone in this fight), I'd say Mace and Anakin.

I'd say Bane and Bandon have a good chance of winning. Bane's armor is supposed to be able to withstand a hit from a lightsaber and increase his strength, speed, reflexes (all the benefits of being loaded with adrenaline). If so, even if Bandon is the weak link he might be able to take out Anakin before Mace kills Bandon.

Hmm, this is a good thread. I see Bane being about even with Mace, perhaps slightly stronger if this is Bane with the Orbalisks. But Anakin would probably kill Bandon before Bane vs. Mace was over and then I see Anakin and Mace together taking Bane out.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I'd say Bane and Bandon have a good chance of winning. Bane's armor is supposed to be able to withstand a hit from a lightsaber and increase his strength, speed, reflexes (all the benefits of being loaded with adrenaline). If so, even if Bandon is the weak link he might be able to take out Anakin before Mace kills Bandon.

Glentract, the times when Bandon was supposedly on par with the likes of Mace Windu and Palpatine are over. Unsupported assumptions like these are ridiculous.

Given that Anakin was the most skilled Jedi of his generation (or of any generation, as the case may be), and that he defeated Count Dooku in single combat (who is supposed to be on par with Malak - who is Bandon's master), I'd say that he would crush Bandon, don't you think?

Originally posted by Escape81
Glentract, the times when Bandon was supposedly on par with the likes of Mace Windu and Palpatine are over. Unsupported assumptions like these are ridiculous.

Did I claim that Bandon was on par with Mace or Sidious? Let me answer for you. I didn't. He doesn't need to be to be able to hold off Anakin for a long enough time for Bane to finish Anakin.

Bandon was the second highest ranking Sith in Malak's Sith Empire which consisted of thousands of force users. Being second in command of the Sith Empire means that he was the second most powerful Sith in the Empire because, as you already know, Sith were encouraged to grap power at any means necessary, including killing a higher ranking Sith who is weaker then you. If anyone could have killed Bandon, they would have. Seeing as they did not, it is logical that they could not.

The Sith Empire during Bandon's time consisted of many, many Jedi who had left the Order. Many of these would have been Jedi Masters and perhaps even Council Members, as the number of fallen Jedi was huge so there probably was been dozens, perhaps hundreds of former Jedi Masters in the Sith Empire, all of whom would have wanted Bandon's position. The reason I am so confident in the high number of fallen Jedi Masters is because of the way proportions of the situation are. If a quarter of the Order joins the Sith, even if only an eight of the wiser Masters do so that is still over a hundred.

Originally posted by Escape81
Given that Anakin was the most skilled Jedi of his generation (or of any generation, as the case may be),

Most skilled Jedi of his generation? I beg to differ. Since when has Anakin been more skilled than Yoda, Mace, or Obi-wan?

Originally posted by Escape81
and that he defeated Count Dooku in single combat (who is supposed to be on par with Malak - who is Bandon's master), I'd say that he would crush Bandon, don't you think?

You know my stance on Anakin defeating Dooku. If you'd like, I'll repost it. In anycase I'd like to your argument to the contrary.

Second, when did the idea that some people have that Malak and Dooku are equal qualify as fact? I would definately call Malak stronger then Dooku.

Malak has a bit of height, more reach, and a lot more youthful vigor. Malak has far better physical strength then Dooku.

BTW, Makashi was still popular during the Jedi Civil War. Malak has more likely then not fought plenty of Makashi users before.

And to top all that off, Bandon doesn't need to defeat Anakin. He only needs to hold him off for a relatively short period of time.

Which he's not going to do, considering Anakin will tear through him like wet paper.

Bane isn't defeating Mace either. Even if he has his orbalisks, theyr'e not perfect, and Mace has his shatterpoint ability.

Originally posted by Escape81
Glentract, the times when Bandon was supposedly on par with the likes of Mace Windu and Palpatine are over. Unsupported assumptions like these are ridiculous.

Given that Anakin was the most skilled Jedi of his generation (or of any generation, as the case may be), and that he defeated Count Dooku in single combat (who is supposed to be on par with Malak -who is Bandon's master), I'd say that he would crush Bandon, don't you think?

Anakin was the most skilled, or had the most potential?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Most skilled Jedi of his generation? I beg to differ. Since when has Anakin been more skilled than Yoda, Mace, or Obi-wan?

1.) He's always been more skilled than Obi-Wan.

2.) The ROTS Novelization states this exactly:

"This is Anakin Skywalker:
The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace."

And Yoda doesn't apply, given that he dies in twenty years, I'd hardly call it "his" generation.



An argument to the contrary? This should be easy for Escape and I, I've defeated all the arguments that Dooku wasn't trying, or whatever - but, go ahead repost it, and I'll repost my mountain of evidence.



I'm sure Obi-Wan is physically stronger than Dooku, I know Darth Maul is. Are they better than Dooku? Given what we saw in ROTS:

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/1888/obigetspwnedld7.gif

I'd say "no".



First, provide evidence. Secondly, provide proof that Malak fought a Makashi user. And if all your evidence lies in Malak's physical attributes, then that's pretty sad.

Are you going to respond to my points, LS, or are you just going to blabbler?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Which he's not going to do, considering Anakin will tear through him like wet paper.

Check my points in my previous post. Prove me wrong if you can.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Bane isn't defeating Mace either. Even if he has his orbalisks, theyr'e not perfect, and Mace has his shatterpoint ability.

I'd like to see your reasons for Mace being superior to Bane.

It will take Mace time to spot a shatterpoint and even if he does it is not assured that he will be able to do anything about it while fighting a Sith who was the most powerful Sith out of 20,000 Sith.

Bane has the physical advantage over Mace because of the benefits of his suit.

Bane has more experince then Mace as he has been fighting lightsaber-weilders since an extremely young age as he was born into war.


If Bane doesn't have his Orbalisks, then he will lose. With it, I see nothing that points him to losing.

Originally posted by Advent
1.) He's always been more skilled than Obi-Wan.

Obi-wan defeated him. I would call Obi-wan more skilled.

Originally posted by Advent
2.) The ROTS Novelization states this exactly:

"This is Anakin Skywalker:
The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace."

The statement is obviously hyperbole and should be discounted on several (not all) points. Why? Because it's wrong in several places.

1. "An unstoppable warrior." Obi-wan stopped him at Mustafar.

2. "On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close." Wrong again. There are people who are even better then him if you count everyone alive at the time. Sidious could beat him in a ground batte. If we count just his generation the quote becomes far less useful for your purposes. I don't see how everything after this part even applies with any real standing.

Originally posted by Advent
And Yoda doesn't apply, given that he dies in twenty years, I'd hardly call it "his" generation.

Makes the quote far less useful. Anakin is the best out of a very small group of people compared to the group that Bandon or Bane was the best of.

Originally posted by Advent
An argument to the contrary? This should be easy for Escape and I, I've defeated all the arguments that Dooku wasn't trying, or whatever - but, go ahead repost it, and I'll repost my mountain of evidence.

In a nutshell:

1. Obi-wan got owned by Dooku. Anakin was defeated by Obi-wan. Dooku supposed was out dueled by Anakin.

2. Dooku believed that Sidious was going to pardon him for his war crimes when he allowed himself to be captured by Anakin after he had killed Obi-wan. This was stated in the ep3 novel. Dooku placed too much faith in Anakin's Jedi beliefs against killing unarmed prisoners. He planned on letting Anakin defeat him. This was part of the plan mentioned in the ep3 novel.

Originally posted by Advent
I'm sure Obi-Wan is physically stronger than Dooku, I know Darth Maul is. Are they better than Dooku? Given what we saw in ROTS:

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/1888/obigetspwnedld7.gif

I'd say "no".

You act as though physical strength is Malak's only advantage that I listed. It's far from it. Take a moment and respond to the rest, please.

Originally posted by Advent
First, provide evidence. Secondly, provide proof that Malak fought a Makashi user. And if all your evidence lies in Malak's physical attributes, then that's pretty sad.

Evidence of the many Makashi users? Exar Kun is stated as knowing Makashi. He knew this before he became a Sith, as he created his own form at that time. Also, Makashi only lost popularity when it became impractical. Because of things like the Great Sith War and the Sith Academy on Korriban that had been around for nearly 40 years Makashi was still very pratical and therefor logically popular.

My evidence lies in the fact that Makashi users were wide spread during the time that Malak fought and that he fought plenty of lightsaber-users.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Obi-wan defeated him. I would call Obi-wan more skilled.

Yes but you can argue that Obiwan trained him, knew ALL of his moves, and was virtually impenetrable when he switched to Soresu.



The statement is obviously hyperbole and should be discounted on several (not all) points. Why? Because it's wrong in several places.

1. "An unstoppable warrior." Obi-wan stopped him at Mustafar.

2. "On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close." Wrong again. There are people who are even better then him if you count everyone alive at the time. Sidious could beat him in a ground batte. If we count just his generation the quote becomes far less useful for your purposes. I don't see how everything after this part even applies with any real standing.
Makes the quote far less useful. Anakin is the best out of a very small group of people compared to the group that Bandon or Bane was the best of.

I agree, the quote could be considered hyperbole and useless, especially if you don't count the likes of Sidious and Yoda. However, I would not even go as far as to put him above Mace, only on par at best. So out of all the Jedi in his generation with the exception of Windu, he's the best. However, this is irrelevant in the 1 on 1 fight, and the fact that Anakin gets heated and irrational during saber combat should also be taken into consideration.

OMG, Bandon was number two of a bunch of Sith!
Whoopie Freaking Do. Anakin is one of the top Jedi of the stronger era, the finest Djem So practioner Dooku had ever seen, the best Jeid of his generation and perhaps any generation and an expert fighter and tactician. Bandon beating him? Ridiculous.

Oh, bullshit, pal: the orbalisks were never seen tested and we know the Jedi eventually DID beat Bane...plus, Mace's shatterpoint can be instantaneous depending on how obvious it is and considering Bane's head is wide open, and Mace is also stunningly fast and strong, just as good in telekenetic saber combat and won't hesitate to use moves like crush or grip. Oh, and Bane was trained pretty late in life...he was a lieutenant in the Sith army when Qordis found him

Oh, proof Makashi users were widespread? It was always a rarity. Where did Kun know Makashi or create his own form?

Yes but you can argue that Obiwan trained him, knew ALL of his moves, and was virtually impenetrable when he switched to Soresu.

I thought about that, but I figure that it really doesn't change the fact that Obi-wan is more skilled, as Anakin knew Obi-wan's moves as well. Good point though.

Anakin wasn't thinking clearly due to Padme. A disadvantage that won't be in this battle

GL stated that Obi-Wan survived that battle because "he knew Anakin's attacks as good as he knew his own". That is the only reason he survived (and the fact that Anakin was lost in his anger). Anakin knew his to, but Anakin was the one attacking, so what good was it to know how Obi should have defended, since he is just going to defend as a counter to how Anakin attacks. (And the fact that Obi was running around half the battle).

Regardless, you were the one who stated that Bandon could defeat Anakin, to which I disagreed.

Lucas specifically stated that Prequel Trilogy is the prime of the Jedi. Anakin Skywalker was the most powerful of that generation, and progressed impressively in short amounts of time. Not to mention that he defeated Count Dooku, who I would put on a league or two above Bandon himself.



Considering how Obi-Wan has over a decade on Anakin in age, Mace has about three decades on Anakin, and Yoda has several centuries on Anakin - I wouldn't count any of them as being part of Anakin's generation.

Furthermore, as far as progress and potential, he is superior to anyone in the PT, be it Obi-Wan, Dooku, Mace, or even Sidious and Yoda.



My argument is identical to Motoko Sama's (Advent). She and I have been arguing, with proof provided from the RotS screenplay, the RotS commentary, and in-movie evidence that completely supports that Anakin defeated Count Dooku through superior swordplay. I am aware that most of the "old crowd" believe otherwise, but that simply isn't the case.



Is that right?



Mm-hmm. That's all well and good. However, Count Dooku has several decades of experience in both Light and Dark side philosophies that Malak does not. He is also heralded as one of the most capable duelists that the Order ever had among its number, and he is a master practitioner of Makashi. Furthermore, his two mentors were the most powerful Force users of the prime of the Jedi - Yoda and Sidious.

Youthful vigor, by the way, didn't seem to help Obi-Wan or Anakin in Attack of the Clones, nor did it seem to help Obi-Wan in Revenge of the Sith. Only Anakin managed to defeat Dooku due to the fact that Anakin grows stronger as fights progress.



True; but then again, who's to say that they were on Dooku's level? Unless you wish to presume that every random KotoR Jedi who used Makashi is on Count Dooku's proficient level.



He can't hope to defeat Anakin.

So, A > B > C? Okay, Mace Windu > Yoda. Mace defeated Sidious, Yoda did not. A > B > C again - Kyle defeated Desann, Luke did not. Kyle > Luke then?

They don't work, and neither does your absurd logic.



No, it wasn't. You're a liar. He was never planning on even being captured, George Lucas even says this:

"Palpatine has told Dooku. 'I have somebody who I think will be a great Sith Lord and I think we can get him to join us. But we need to test him. So we're going to setup a situation where you fight him. If he gets the best of you, then I'll stop the fight and he'll have passed the test. If you get the best of him, then we'll let him go, and we'll let him stew for a few more years until he's ready.' But behind it, obviously, is Palpatine's real intention: If Anakin is good enough, Anakin can kill Dooku and become Palpatine's new apprentice. But he didn't tell Dooku that." --George Lucas, The Making Of ROTS; Page 41.

Where is anything about Dooku letting Anakin win? Quite the contary to your bullshit actually, Glentract, it even says "If you get the best of him". Now, why would that be if he was going to lose anyways?

Dooku was basically told that if he beats Anakin then Anakin wasn't worthy as an apprentice.

"And so it is..."



No, it wasn't. You're a liar. He never planned on letting Anakin defeat him, George Lucas even said that. Seems Lucas has trumped you.

From the ROTS movie/script:

The hologram of Sidious talks to GRIEVOUS about the death of Count Dooku.

GENERAL GRIEVOUS: But the loss of Count Dooku?

DARTH SlDIOUS: His death was a necessary loss, which will ensure our victory. Soon I will have a new apprentice . . . one far younger and more powerful than Lord Tyranus.

Seems even Sidious, admits that Dooku's loss was nothing due to the fact Anakin is more powerful. The Jedi Purge was a few days away so why would Palpatine let Dooku (who to *you* is the stronger) get killed?

George Lucas himself - you know good ol' GL, the damn creator of what we're debating right now even states this, "Dooku thinks he's just going to fight him".

Oh, and just so you didn't forget - GL's words trump everything you have to say on any matter of Star Wars. The Making of ROTS says if Anakin gets the best of Dooku - Palpatine will save Dooku. Keywords: "Best of."

Answer me this, why would Anakin get "the best of" Dooku at all? Why would Palpatine have to jump in at all? Why would any of that be a thought at all, if Dooku is superior to Anakin? Also notice it doesn't say "if anything goes wrong, Palpatine will save the day", but if Anakin beats Dooku - like he did.

The New Essential Chronology says that Dooku fought for his life, and the ROTS Novel says they both gave it their all as well:

"...urged Anakin to bloodlust, and Dooku fought for his life" - NEC, page 80.

"These clowns might-Just possibly-actually be able to beat him. No sense in taking chances; even his Master would agree with that."

And if that's not giving it your all, I don't know what is.

You have been trumped by a mountain of evidence, Glentract. Anakin beat Dooku fair and square.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
OMG, Bandon was number two of a bunch of Sith!
Whoopie Freaking Do. Anakin is one of the top Jedi of the stronger era,

Anakin is one of the strongest, but he's not second. He's not third either. Your point isn't valid.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
the finest Djem So practioner Dooku had ever seen,

Doesn't matter, as none of the top five Jedi in the Order are as good as they are just from Djem So.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
the best Jeid of his generation and perhaps any generation

His generation doesn't include Mace or Yoda. It doesn't include Obi-wan in my books either. The perhaps part is obviously false as Anakin is not stronger then Yoda who is included in any generation.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
and an expert fighter and tactician. Bandon beating him? Ridiculous.

Bandon was an expert fighter and tactician aswell. How else do you think Bandon became the second strongest Sith in an entire Empire of them?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, bullshit, pal: the orbalisks were never seen tested

I don't see the sigificance of this statement.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
and we know the Jedi eventually DID beat Bane...plus,

Actually it wasn't the Jedi who took him down. It was his apprentice.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Mace's shatterpoint can be instantaneous depending on how obvious it is

Can be. Not will be. Something like a living suit that is effective at repelling lightsaber strikes should have a hrad shatterpoint to find.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
and considering Bane's head is wide open,

You act as if Mace's entire body isn't wide open. And it's only Bane's face, not his entire head.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
and Mace is also stunningly fast and strong,

Read up on the effects of massive amounts of adrenaline and tell me that Bane wouldn't stunning fast and strong as well.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
just as good in telekenetic saber combat

Proof?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
and won't hesitate to use moves like crush or grip.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, and Bane was trained pretty late in life...he was a lieutenant in the Sith army when Qordis found him

Point?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, proof Makashi users were widespread? It was always a rarity. Where did Kun know Makashi or create his own form?

When was it stated to be a rarity?

I'll be heading out for a few hours, so don't expect any followups before then.

One more thing to add to this. Darth Bandon showed absolutely nothing in my mind, and because he was apprenticed to Malak does not necesarily mean he was the 2nd best in the order of thousands of sith, because there were also fallen Jedi and all that jazz, so I don't know how it's logical to assume he was powerful and was #2 because he was apprenticed to Malak. Bastilla was also apprenticed to Malak but outside of her Battle Meditation, she showed nothing.

She was clearly one of the more able jedi warriors, as the council did send her (as well as others) to ambush Revan. The fact that her battle meditation was so impressive suggests that she was also very strong in the force.

Yes but outside of Revan, Malak, and the likes of Dvorak and Vrook, we haven't seen much from anybody else on that council at that time.

Dorak? What'd he do?

In strength? Anakin's up there, possibly second strongest behind Yoda.

Big deal, shows Anakin was one of the best saber duelists in the entire order.

Afraid it does include Obi-wan and possibly Mace. Possibly ANY generation in regards to talent and ability.

Bandon'd been a Sith for how long? Five years? Any idea what he did to become Malak's apprentice? He and two others were taken out by Revan rather easily...his best feat: Killing trask Ulgo.

Um, no: The Jedi took Bane down. His fall is mention in the ROTS novelization. We don't even know if Zannah survived.

Please, the obralisks are not infallible, nor were they ever tested. Oh, and Bane's head is uncovered and vulnerable. It was just thought that a saber would have trouble penetrating it...we've seen sabers go through cortosis and mandalorian iron, which are stronger than orbalisks.


Mace's body isn't wide open and Bane's head is open. He wore a mask so they wouldn't cover it, but the mask afforded no protection.

Proof Bane's strength and speed are anything near Mace's? I thought so.

Lesse, it's mentioned Mace was a master at telekentic saber combat? And point? Lesse: Bane did NOT train from birth and Mace can crush every bone in his body.

And stated to be a rarity in the Visual dictionary? Makashi was always rare

Lightsnake I'm afraid it doesn't include Windu, because Windu's only superior was Yoda. Anakin wouldn't win in a battle with Windu.

Why not? He beat Dooku

So? And Mace beat Sidious? Totally irrelevant.

Hardly. As a duelist, Anakin is in league with Mace

Hold on here.

Once again, I have to take the middle ground. Anakin, as a duelist, is on par with Yoda, Sidious, Mace, Dooku, or any other PT Force user you'd care to name.

He could easily contend with Mace in a lightsaber fight. But in an all out fight? Mace has the Shatterpoint ability and his superior Force powers, which Anakin can't handle.

Yoda, Mace, and Sidious are all on the same level for me.

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