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Setting is the Emperor's throne room.

Is this an all out battle? Interesting. ROTJ Sidious is most likely at his peak(or maybe not, maybe in DE), and ESB Yoda is almost dead. I would think ESB Yoda is pretty much defenseles for anything except force powers. But it would be interesting. Him and Obiwan would probably be too much of a match for ROTJ Sidious.

Do Sidious and Yoda still have their lightsabers? If not then Sids pwns Yoda with lightning and then gets his Royal Guards to deal with Kenobi

Yoda doesn't need a saber to block Sidious' lightning.

Yes, but he is sick and frail in ESB. And in ROTS I recall him getting knocked backwards twice by Sids lightning...

Twice? You mean the first time when he wasn't prepared for it? Or the second time when he absorbed it and made Sidious shit his pants? I believe there was a time before that when he shot it back at Sidious and deformed him more, but I think that was in the script.

Not prepared? You've gotta be kidding me. Sids basically tells him whats about to happen. "Now you will experience the full power of the dark side". He then slowly brings his hands up and fires the lightning - sending Yoda flying across the room. The second time yes, Yoda did manage to block some of it. But then it became to powerful for even him to handle and he was thrown backwards.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Not prepared? You've gotta be kidding me. Sids basically tells him whats about to happen. "Now you will experience the full power of the dark side". He then slowly brings his hands up and fires the lightning - sending Yoda flying across the room. The second time yes, Yoda did manage to block some of it. But then it became to powerful for even him to handle and he was thrown backwards.


Again, what makes you think that he was prepared considering the fact that he shot it back at him, then absorbed it? It's the same for him force pushing Sidious. And no, it didn't become too powerful for him. Notice how he was absorbing and the distance got so close that they both were shot back, and since he weighs 40 lbs he got the worst end. Watch the fight again.

Either way we havent seen Yoda completely absorb Sids lightning - not like he did to Dookus. The first time might have caught him off guard (although I find that hard to beleive for the reasons stated I before) and the second time he was blown backwards. Now seeing that Yoda is physically weaker in ESB there is nothing to suggest he would be able to block it.

Damn, Christopher Lee's ugly! Get a new role model. Anyways, I'd say Sidious wins.

He's pretty sexy for an old man.

Originally posted by Advent
Damn, Christopher Lee's ugly!

WHAT!! *has several major heart attacks, a hernia, four nervous break downs and a stroke*

To answer Rampant Ox's question, yes they do have lightsabers.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Either way we havent seen Yoda completely absorb Sids lightning - not like he did to Dookus. The first time might have caught him off guard (although I find that hard to beleive for the reasons stated I before) and the second time he was blown backwards. Now seeing that Yoda is physically weaker in ESB there is nothing to suggest he would be able to block it.

Uh, he didn't absorb Dooku's lightning because Dooku's lightning was nowhere near as powerful as Sidious'. And he supposedly shot Sidious' lightning back at him so I don't see what your point is. Yoda is weaker in esb physically, that doesn't mean his force superiority isn't there anymore, not to mention he has an older and wiser Obiwan. I don't think Sidious can handle the two.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Uh, he didn't absorb Dooku's lightning because Dooku's lightning was nowhere near as powerful as Sidious'.

That doesnt make sense. He didnt absorb it because its not as strong? I think I get your point though. Yoda absorbed Dooku's lightning because he was strong enough to do so. He wasnt able and we havent seen him be able to do the same to Sids lightning. Why? Because Sids is far stronger in the force than Dooku and his lightning will eventually overwhelm our 'little green friend'.



When? If it wasnt in the movie or deleted scenes then it is not canon. Point moot.



True, Yoda probably still has the same force powers - if not more. But Sids will have got stronger as well. Again point moot. Because they have there lightsabers I dont know who will win. Kenobi sucks with a saber and Yoda has not been seen with a saber since ROTS. I dont know what happened to Sidious' saber though.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
That doesnt make sense. He didnt absorb it because its not as strong? I think I get your point though. Yoda absorbed Dooku's lightning because he was strong enough to do so. He wasnt able and we havent seen him be able to do the same to Sids lightning. Why? Because Sids is far stronger in the force than Dooku and his lightning will eventually overwhelm our 'little green friend'.

Dooku's lightning=/Sidious' lightning, there's no arguing that. Yoda DID the same to Sidious' lightning(either in the script or novelization), and he absorbed it so I don't know what your point is exactly.


True, Yoda probably still has the same force powers - if not more. But Sids will have got stronger as well. Again point moot. Because they have there lightsabers I dont know who will win. Kenobi sucks with a saber and Yoda has not been seen with a saber since ROTS. I dont know what happened to Sidious' saber though.

Sidious did get stronger or at least more knowledgable as did Yoda. How is that a moot point exactly? Do you know what a moot point is? Now Kenobi sucks with a saber? Considering this is the best version of Obiwan, he sucks now? The two would overwhelm Sidious more times than not.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Dooku's lightning=/Sidious' lightning, there's no arguing that. Yoda DID the same to Sidious' lightning(either in the script or novelization), and he absorbed it so I don't know what your point is exactly.

Can you please explain to me when Yoda was able to absorb his lightning. The first time he got pwned by it.The second time he was able to hold it off for a short amount of time but eventually got overwhelmed.




Its a point moot because in ROTS Yoda wasnt able to hold off the lightning. Now they both got stronger in the force since then. For the sake of the argument lets say their force powers doubled. Nothing different is going to happen. Yoda will still be able to hold it off for a short time but he will still get overwhelmed. Do you see my point?



With a saber, yes, Kenobi sucks. I would say Kenobi is the weak link here. Yoda was the best duellist but he is now sick and weak. This means that Sidious is now the top dog in this fight. In a lightsaber duel I would say that Sidious takes this. A force battle Sids would eventually get overcome.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Can you please explain to me when Yoda was able to absorb his lightning. The first time he got pwned by it.The second time he was able to hold it off for a short amount of time but eventually got overwhelmed.

I guess we were watching different then right? Let me ask you something, if Yoda was overwhelmed the first time as you say, how did he magically shoot it back at Sidious and/or absorbed it? And no Yoda didn't get overwhelmed, it was Sidious with the scared shitless look on his face at the end. They both were pushed off as a result of all that energy, only Yoda weights 5 times less than Sidious. The end..


Its a point moot because in ROTS Yoda wasnt able to hold off the lightning. Now they both got stronger in the force since then. For the sake of the argument lets say their force powers doubled. Nothing different is going to happen. Yoda will still be able to hold it off for a short time but he will still get overwhelmed. Do you see my point?

Except that Yoda did hold the lightning off. So your lightning argument doesn't work because your word is contrary to what was actually happening.


With a saber, yes, Kenobi sucks. I would say Kenobi is the weak link here. Yoda was the best duellist but he is now sick and weak. This means that Sidious is now the top dog in this fight. In a lightsaber duel I would say that Sidious takes this. A force battle Sids would eventually get overcome.

Kenobi doesn't suck with a saber, notice how he was only defeated by Dooku and it was an ALL OUT battle. Sidious is also old and weak and hasn't touched his saber in God knows how long.

What is up with everyone saying Yoda absorbed Dooku's and Palpatine's lighting? He reflected them back not absorbed. Yoda was capable of blasting Dooku's lighting with one hand. With Palpatine it took both hands and a strong focus and it resulted in Yoda and Palpatine being blasted back. Yoda is like 40 lbs and because of that got thrown further.

Obi-Wan doesn't suck with a lightsaber. He was capable of clashing blades with Vader point for point, the same Vader who defeated 3-6 Jedi at once.

As for Yoda and Palpatine. Yoda didn't seem sick in Empire Strikes Back. He seemed excited at first when he was going through Luke's stuff. And I doubt Yoda would have lost his ability to fight during those 20+ years. I mean how often did Yoda ever fight before The Phantom Meance and Attack of the Clones?

Obi-Wan would be stronger in the Force but so is Palpatine. I have to lean towards Yoda and Obi-Wan.

Actually Yoda does absorb Dooku's lightning. He was trying to absorb Sidious's in the Senate chamber but he couldn't. So rather he then tried to deflect it, which he kinda did, but the resulting force from Sidious lightning and Yoda's deflection of the lightning sorta created a mini "force-explosion" and sent them both flying. But he DID absorb Dooku's lightning in AOTC, and pretty easily.

As for the fight I think that Sidious takes it, ESB Yoda is basically on the verge of death, and weak (not in the force mind you) and Obi-Wan was never powerful enough to fight Sidious. "To fight this lord Sidious, strong enough, you are not." as Yoda told him in ROTS. So while Obi has undoubtedly improved (in force abilities) so has Palpatine, so I doubt he'd stand a chance against Sidious as of ANH. Yoda on the other hand was Sidious' equal in ROTS, but now he's old and frail, and prolly not as fast or agile.

This would come down to a battle of the force in the end, as Sabers would be pretty well useless, seeing as Palpatine disarmed a stronger, faster,younger Yoda in ROTS, and since Obi-Wan isnt as powerful as Yoda (by a long shot) then he would prolly be able to do the same to Kenobi. Plus everyone here is old and frail and prolly all suck at saber dueling compared to their ROTS selves anyways.

At any rate, I say Palpatine overpowers the old Yoda and just plain beats Obi-Wan.

When you are talking about sabers, don't say Sidous disarmed Yoda, because that would be talking about his force lightning. on the other hand Yoda DID disarm Sidious..

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
When you are talking about sabers, don't say Sidous disarmed Yoda, because that would be talking about his force lightning. on the other hand Yoda DID disarm Sidious..

Which, as I was recently informed, wasn't in the RotS novelization, as well as the movie itself. The script showed it, but it is obvious that Lucas cut them out for a reason. Nor did it show up in the deleted scenes section.

It isn't canon.

For all we know, Sidious just realized that the fight between him and Yoda would take forever, and put distance between them and opted for long ranged assaults.

Oh, so Sidious magically removed his lightsaber, and ended up on top of the senate chamber, while Yoda had his lightsaber put away and ended on the bottom. Interesting.

I, personally, would recommend dispensing with the sarcasm and then, lock your ego in a psychological box. Do you recall when you weren't too thrilled about me being sarcastic and rude with you? Treat others the way you want to be treated, they say. Don't expect to act this way and not share it.

Furthermore, you're hardly the elite debator you think you are.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Oh, so Sidious magically removed his lightsaber, and ended up on top of the senate chamber, while Yoda had his lightsaber put away and ended on the bottom. Interesting.

Mm-hmm. As opposed to that script's version, where:

- Yoda disarms Sidious.
- Sidious retaliates by using Force lightning.
- Yoda proceeds to pwn Sidious with his own Force lightning.
- Yoda then, for absolutely no reason, jumps to a Senate pod, giving his sworn enemy a fighting chance.

That is ridiculous. The scene was cut for a reason. It isn't canon. I operated under the same assumption, but it isn't.

An alternative could possibly be:

Sidious ending the saber lock and simply jumping out of the podium, and put distance in between him and Yoda.

Furthermore, let me pose a counter-question to you. Which is more believable? Sidious simply ending the saber lock and putting distance between him and Yoda, or Yoda disarming Sidious, pwning him, and Sidious still be able to escape Yoda, unarmed, despite you saying that Yoda > Sidious in both ways?

I wasn't being sarcastic to you, I was being sarcastic in general. And what's more believable? That Yoda disarmed Sidious with a saber, and Sidious being the better tactician than Yoda, found a way to use the senate chamber to his advantage(considering he is a LOT more familiar with it than Yoda), and gained the upper ground, before starting to toss pods. THATS what makes sense to me.. But then again.. And I never claimed to be an elite debator, at least not in the SW universe which I still consider myself better than average.

Considering how I was the person who posted the thing you were being sarcastic at, you were being sarcastic with me.



Oh, wait. So, let me get this straight...

Sidious unarmed and inferior to Yoda in both the Force and in saber skills, as you claim, is able to evade Yoda, despite being on a small podium with him, and is able to put that much distance between them due to sheer tactics?

Sidious is the smarter fighter, but Yoda was the Jedi's foremost tactition. If you think Sidious is that good against a foe as superior as you make Yoda out to be, then you're out of you're mind.

ok so let me get this straight, Yoda and Sidious were fighting on top of the podium then Yoda ended up at the bottom and Sidious ended up at the top without a saber? I would still say Sidious is inferior to Yoda in the force by ROTS but by only a hair(like Yoda and Mace), and being the superior tactician AND being VERY familiar with the senate chambers, plus using offensive force abilities as opposed to Yoda who wasn't using any aside from the force push, yes I think it is a possibility.

No. When the fight returned, we see that Yoda was just jumping from the Chancellor's podium, his lightsaber still ignited, and Sidious was already in full pod mode.

According to you, Yoda disarmed Sidious. Now, I would like to remind you that Yoda and Sidious are extremely near to one another when they were on that podium. Also, according to you, Sidious - despite being inferior and now unarmed - was able to evade Yoda, at point blank range and put that much distance between himself and Yoda, all due to superior tactics?

Sidious is the smarter fighter. Yes. But nothing is to indicate that he is the superior tactition, given that Yoda was the most skilled tactition of the Jedi during the Clone Wars.

So, according to you, Sidious managed to do all of that through superior tactics...

Not likely.

The idea that Sidious simply managed to use the Force or his saber to pre-occupy Yoda, and then put distance in between them, to simply try to defeat Yoda via long distance assaults, is more logical. It also goes along with Sidious's goals quite nicely. If he and Yoda are simply not getting anywhere with the sabers - why not switch to long distance assaults? Especially when Sidious's ultimate goal is not to kill Yoda per say, but simply live.



a. Glad to see you've recognized that they are that close in power.

b. He's not the superior tactition. Given that, during the days of the Empire, he relied on people such as Thrawn and Vader to lead and organize his military campaigns, it is unlikely that he was anything but an average tactition. He's a supreme manipulator and politician, but that's it as far as tactics.

c. As I recall, Yoda and Mace were present during a few Senate hearings. They were in AotC. They were also known to meet with Palpatine often. Lastly, the Senate Rotunda is a pretty easy room to get the concept of. Nothing really out of the ordinary. Furthermore, how would that be of any help in that situation?

d. Yoda can't use offensive Force powers. Sidious is the only one in the fight who is capable of using them. You make it sound as if though Yoda could, but chose not too.

No, my point is Yoda COULDNT use offensive powers, so him disarming Sidious, and then Sidious holding him off with the force is VERY Logical. I don't see how it isn't?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No, my point is Yoda COULDNT use offensive powers, so him disarming Sidious, and then Sidious holding him off with the force is VERY Logical. I don't see how it isn't?

Force push?

Kenobi wasn't as weak as everyone thinks. Remember he did let Vader VOLUNTARILY beat him on the Death Star. At his age he could have but up a very good fight. Enough to distract Palps while Yoda throws a well aimed flying saber.

Originally posted by Darth Scythe
Kenobi wasn't as weak as everyone thinks. Remember he did let Vader VOLUNTARILY beat him on the Death Star. At his age he could have but up a very good fight. Enough to distract Palps while Yoda throws a well aimed flying saber.

No, he did not. The novel stated that both of them were equals. The fight could have gone on longer, but Obi-Wan sacrificed himself to save Luke.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No, my point is Yoda COULDNT use offensive powers, so him disarming Sidious, and then Sidious holding him off with the force is VERY Logical. I don't see how it isn't?

Because you're the one who said that Yoda beat Sidious at every juncture. For Sidious to be able to hold Yoda off with the Force would mean that Sidious is capable of stalemating and/or beating Yoda in certain Force attacks without a terrain advantage, which defies your entire argument.

Originally posted by Escape81
Because you're the one who said that Yoda beat Sidious at every juncture. For Sidious to be able to hold Yoda off with the Force would mean that Sidious is capable of stalemating and/or beating Yoda in certain Force attacks without a terrain advantage, which defies your entire argument.

Oh really? So Yoda necessarily needs offensive force powers to beat Sidious? How about the fact that he can shoot lightning back at his opponent, like Mace did to disfigure Sidious? That's not an offensive force ability yet Mace was able to almost kill Sidious. Sidious being the smarter of the two fighters was capable of holding OFF Yoda to get to the higher ground, and yet they still stalemated. So how does this defy my entire logic exactly? Sidious IS capable of holding off Yoda with certain force attacks WITH a terrain advantage, not without.

Damn it, DS. I'm tired of arguing with you anymore, because you will not read. You will not comprehend my statements. I'm not the only one who has noticed your sudden lack of ability. I'm serious. Don't debate with me at all, unless you're going to pay attention. Because between your statements last night and this crap that you are constantly spewing here recently, nothing adds up.

Read what I say before you try to argue with me, because when you don't, it makes you look stupid.



Dude, when did I say that Yoda required offensive Force powers to defeat Sidious?



I said that Yoda isn't capable of generating offensive Force abilities. Not that he required them. How does this apply, at all? Pay attention.



You still haven't been able to explain how Sidious was able to evade Yoda, unarmed, in the first place.

Fact: We know that, according to that script, Sidious was disarmed on the Chancellor's podium, meaning that he and Yoda were only a few feet away from each other.

Fact: According to you, Yoda is superior to Sidious in lightsaber ability and in Force ability.

So. Knowing those two things, how could Sidious have evaded Yoda - the most powerful Jedi ever - unarmed, if he is absolutely inferior to Yoda? And then, to top it all off, put that much distance between them?

Because Sidious is smarter? Sidious is a manipulator who used Yoda as a pawn. But how the hell is that going to give him an undeniable, solid advantage that negates Yoda's own advantages of supposed superior ability? Especially when they both knew the Senate Rotunda well? Especially when Sidious is inferior and unarmed, and less than three feet away from Yoda?

Sorry. It makes more sense that Sidious is Yoda's equal, and was capable of simply holding him at bay long enough for him to escape, and opt for a long-range assault, to try to wear Yoda down.



It defies your logic because, according to you, Yoda > Sidious in all things, and that they are only equal when Sidious has an environmental advantage. But that wouldn't be so if Sidious is able to evade Yoda, unarmed, at point blank range, and put that much distance between them.

It would mean that Sidious is (brace yourself) capable of stalemating and/or overpowering Yoda without an environmental advantage, just as Yoda is capable of doing the same.

Why do you think that this scene is not featured?

OH NOES TEH JANZOR H4Z GONE MISSING *TEAR*

i'm guessing its a death of a sith here, but that just my easily swayed opinion

Originally posted by Mesirus
i'm guessing its a death of a sith here, but that just my easily swayed opinion

Maybe. Maybe not.

Individually, by the time of Return of the Jedi, Palpatine has surpassed both Yoda and Obi-Wan in individual power, due to his 20 years of studying the Force with the resources of the Empire at his command, as well as the knowledge from the Jedi Temple.

We also know that, according to Yoda, Obi-Wan could never defeat Palpatine on combat (RotS novelization). Considering how he's only equal to Vader as of A New Hope, I see Obi-Wan dying a quick, painful death.

Yoda, on the other hand, is still very powerful in the Force. But is slow, old, and frail, even by the time of Empire Strikes Back. Why I doubt it'll be easy, I see Palpatine solidly overcoming Yoda, too.

But who knows?

Either way, Obi-Wan dies. Hard.

Obi Wan is very close to Vader, but, slightly inferior. I just wanted to clear that up.

SW Databank and ANH novelisation.

Let's focus! You guys have gotten WAY off track. Let's look at the question at hand: who would win in a fight, ROTJ Palpatine or ESB Yoda and ANH Obi Wan? And for the love of God, don't talk about Yoda absorbing Palpatine's lightning or whatever!!!

My apologies escape, I'll respond to your post when I'm ready..

I'm laughing at the thought of Kenobi and Yoda fighting Palpatine with lightsabers at this point in their lives.

lol, yes i realised that, you chose each character at their oldest, even the winner has to be careful, might break a hip or somethink >_>

Actually, they would probably be pretty good, well, at least Kenobi; Yoda and Palps would be a bit rusty, but, still good, most likely.

yeah i mean liek lolcopter

Originally posted by Escape81
No, he did not. The novel stated that both of them were equals. The fight could have gone on longer, but Obi-Wan sacrificed himself to save Luke.

Reading comprehension, you learn it in school.

See Obi-Wan sacraficing himself = voluntarily letting Vader win.

But thanks for the free re-iteration.

Originally posted by Darth Scythe
Reading comprehension, you learn it in school.

See Obi-Wan sacraficing himself = voluntarily letting Vader win.

But thanks for the free re-iteration.

I'd recommend dispensing with your attitude of superiority, arrogance, and sarcasm. Because you're dead wrong.

For you see, the ANH novelization - which is a canon source - stated that they were equals. There are other sources, to which Jollyjim can provide, that shows Obi-Wan as slightly inferior to Obi-Wan.

Novelization & other sources > your opinion.

Edit: Oh, and I wouldn't go around bashing people for "reading comprehension", because you don't even know how to accurately spell. It's *sacrifice*.

You said Obi Wan was inferior to himself, other than the brain fart, you're right.

Originally posted by Escape81
I'd recommend dispensing with your attitude of superiority, arrogance, and sarcasm. Because you're dead wrong.

For you see, the ANH novelization - which is a canon source - stated that they were equals. There are other sources, to which Jollyjim can provide, that shows Obi-Wan as slightly inferior to Obi-Wan.
Novelization & other sources > your opinion.

Edit: Oh, and I wouldn't go around bashing people for "reading comprehension", because you don't even know how to accurately spell. It's *sacrifice*.

lol@Obi-Wan being inferior to himself.

Read back to my original post. In it I stated Obi-Wan wasn't weak and let Vader beat him basically.

Kenobi wasn't as weak as everyone thinks. Remember he did let Vader VOLUNTARILY beat him on the Death Star. At his age he could have but up a very good fight.

You in turn, did a hybrid agree/disagree reply and repeated my point. You seem confused from my vantage.


Someone please find the part where I said Ben is a chump and Vader pwned him easily because he couldn't fight. If you can't I'd suggest halting your argument because you'd be debating a point I never brought up.

Whoops. Obi-Wan is slightly inferior to Vader.

Obi-Wan couldn't have defeated Vader anyways, as of ANH. Meaning, he would've lost anyway.

I doubt the Jedi could beat Sidios. By ESB Yoda ain't that strong, according to Lucas ANH Kenobi > Yoda. According to the ANH novel Kenobi = ANH Vader so he's 80% of Sidious but by this time Sidious should be much faster than Yoda and stronger with the Force than either Jedi by a fair amount, so I see him winning by killing one of the duo early on in the fight.

Originally posted by darthsith19
I doubt the Jedi could beat Sidios. By ESB Yoda ain't that strong, according to Lucas ANH Kenobi > Yoda. According to the ANH novel Kenobi = ANH Vader so he's 80% of Sidious but by this time Sidious should be much faster than Yoda and stronger with the Force than either Jedi by a fair amount, so I see him winning by killing one of the duo early on in the fight.

Uh no, Lucas said ANH Obiwan was the #1 good guy, and this was before Yoda was created.