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Setting: The area strong with the dark side in Dagobah. Where Luke had to confront the "phantom" Vader.

EDIT: Mace "Windu" folks. I meant "Windu"

Darth Vader alone would be a match for Windu(mind you he wouldn't beat him), so adding Maul would be too much. Then again, Maul's style requires space so the cohesiveness between the two is going to be shaky considering Vader uses powerful slashes.

Not familiar with Wundu. hmm

theyre not a good team. both of their styles need space. windu would get rid of darth maul, and then vader

Originally posted by Captain REX
Not familiar with Wundu. hmm


Nope, not as familiar as with "Aniken" and "Sideous"....

I belive the two will be to much for him....

The place where Luke confronts Vader is called The Cave of Despair. Vader and Maul would swamp Windu. No pun intended.

Princess Bride anybody?

Well, Maul and Windu would duke it out with Vapaad while Vader would try to choke Mace. Windu would probably kill Darth Maul, but then loses to Vader. Vader himself would give Windu a helluva time with his Djem So.

Um Maul doesn't know Vaapad. And in an all out battle that's probably accurate. Vader would be the superior here in force abilities, but in a saber fight Mace would win in a long hard battle.

Well sources say that Maul is a practicioner of Vapaad, though I am not a 100% sure. Anyway, Mace woudn't win in saber combat. Darth Vader would overcome him.

Neither one of them could handle Mace in a 1 on 1 saber combat. Maul is 100% NOT a practitioner of Vaapad. Maul's style and double saber requires space, and so does Vader and his powerful blows, so they can't coexist.

At the end of ROTS, Sidious tells Yoda, "Darth Vader will be stronger than either of us." While it was a slight exaggeration, it must be true. While Vader was confined in his suit, he became a lot stronger and more powerful in the force, since he was training under Sidious during the time span between ROTS and TNH.

Yes, they won't be working together. Maul and Mace would be fighting with lightsabers while Vader would be using the Force. After Maul dies, Vader would take over and finish Windu.

Oy.. Darth Vader as in potential, as in NOT the robot that Darth Vader became.

Actually, for some reason I believe that robot Vader can beat Windu.

See, we judge Mace Windu due to his saber skills performance in Episode II and in Episode III against Sidious.

Now, if you ever paid attention to the lightsaber fights in teh original movies, they were considerably slower. If the same movies were made today, the battle between Vader and Luke would have been more epic. Due to moviemaking during that period, technology couldn't allow such fights. Therefore, we judge Vader by his saber performance in the original film, which is nothing compared to Windu's. However, if the battle was remade Vader's saber skill would much more impressive and thus we would judge his skill higher.

Now, I have absolutely no clue what i just said, and people might think my judgement is crazy, but this something that has been in mind for a long time cuz many people underestimate Lord Vader.

Originally posted by Master Vos
Actually, for some reason I believe that robot Vader can beat Windu.

See, we judge Mace Windu due to his saber skills performance in Episode II and in Episode III against Sidious.

Now, if you ever paid attention to the lightsaber fights in teh original movies, they were considerably slower. If the same movies were made today, the battle between Vader and Luke would have been more epic. Due to moviemaking during that period, technology couldn't allow such fights. Therefore, we judge Vader by his saber performance in the original film, which is nothing compared to Windu's. However, if the battle was remade Vader's saber skill would much more impressive and thus we would judge his skill higher.

Now, I have absolutely no clue what i just said, and people might think my judgement is crazy, but this something that has been in mind for a long time cuz many people underestimate Lord Vader.


This is a debating forum bro, not an "I think" forum. Robot Vader is absolutely no match for Mace Windu in terms of saber combat. We DO judge Mace by his win over Sidious in ROTS, along with Shatterpoint and CW cartoons. ANd please don't start blaming the 70's fights on choreography, because I can refute that by saying Vader was a robot who lacked agility, and Luke hadn't learned a single light saber form.

No, I am not BLAMING anyone, I am saying that the choreography did have an impact. But perhaps I am wrong. Mace Windu has speed and strength while Vader has the Force and strength. And Luke did practice some form. Under Ben Kenobi, he practiced probably a Soresu variant and under Yoda an Ataru form. Thus, he fought with Djem So, though he wasn't a master at it.

windu would be thrashed, windu could kill maul alone, but i disagree that windu could beat vader on his own, vader was the most powerful jedi as anikin, vader just seems slow because his fights were back when it couldn't be made fast.

This is ROBOT ANAKIN.. Hence the Darth Vader, not ROTS Anakin who WIndu would beat anyways.

I think we all know that man.

I feel Windu takes this.

In the cave of despair, there would far too little space for Vader and Maul to cohesively work as a unit.

This also means that Maul's acrobatics won't save him from Windu. Mace could easily use his shatter point ability to take down Maul.

Vader's choke would be a problem, but Mace could use force crush to counter this (screw up Vader's life support system). He is also Maul's superiour in force techniques so he could throw Maul around without any difficulty.

The duo could pull it off but I doubt it. I would put it at 60/40

lol life support system

ok he's the facts, if somehow maul and vader are able to work as a team, they'd have to stay on opposite sides or vader choke and mauls fight or whatever they stand a decent chance of beating windu
But i suspect like all sith they uise the brawn over brain approach (except maybe sidious) is what i would expect, resulting is windu's win

A Windu being hit in the face by dirt, rocks, trees/roots and small animals couldn't beat Maul in a lightsaber fight.

It would be a difficult fight, especially due to the setting. But I feel Windu loses this.

windu wins. not just because hes my fav' but because he uses the hardest form to master, is close to the darkside and is the better swordsman. mauls saber would be to akward and vader uses wide and powerful swings which means that mace has the saber advantage.

he could beat maul, who DOES use vapaad but not to such a high level. as for vader, a half dead cyborg man, even if he was faster and more powerful, mace would take his arm as payback (and maybe a leg), as for force, vader can only really use force choak and mace could use force crush to counter.

MACE WINS!!!!

You're correct in a way. However, if Vader's Djem So + Vader's strength, the power generated by the attack could overwhelm Mace, just like it did to Dooku. Plus Vader can do, like he did in ESB, fight with one hand and throw objects at Mace. I think Mace would kill Maul and then lose barely to Vader. Maul could just be a physical distraction before Vader.

However, Mace can do Force Crush to burst Vader open. However, the Sith master would try to block that by swing a rock at Mace or something.

It's a close one.

nah, i figure vader woud do what he did to luke in ESB while maul fights him saber to saber, windu's unmatchable in his time period for saber but he's not that great

Originally posted by Sith Lord Windu
windu wins. not just because hes my fav'
is close to the darkside
maul, who DOES use vapaad
as for vader, a half dead cyborg man
force choak
MACE WINS!!!!

Yay for your credibility.

Anyway, Maul and Vader stomp all over him.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Anyway, Maul and Vader stomp all over him.

Care to back up this unproven statement?

I really would, give me a little while, star wars comics isn't working right now...

Originally posted by jollyjim311
I really would, give me a little while, star wars comics isn't working right now...

Ah, I see.

Come on, give the big black man the credit he is due.

I'm trying to imagine this fight in my head...Vader in suit plus double-saber wielding Maul. It seems a little too much for Mace to handle.
It looks like we'll have to look at each dueler in turn:
Vader - ok he has beaten a LOT of jedi and though he beat Dooku b4 suit I reckon he could do it with suit - mayb me harder or may be easier - I can see Dooku being suit Vader's equal or inferior]. He has 80% Sidious' power according to Lucas and it gets complex again as we don't know for sure whether Mace DID beat Sidious in that duel. I'm sure Lucas says he did in DVD commentary or some other place - and I think after reading shatterpoint that Mace's Vaapad makes him a upper level jedi when it comes to strength - same as Vader nearly and an extra great swordsman.
I can see Mace having difficulty as I reckon his problem would come in fending off 3 red baldes with his just one. I read somewhere that at Battle of Geonosis he fought many armed Grievous and couldn't overpower him in saber duel . Then again he as tired after all that fighting.... And Ani did cut his arm off when he was about to strike Palps down - BUT he was off gaurd - all the same I feel that Mace isn't totally competent in fighting multiple blades.
However maybe Maul's double bladed saber would make it difficult for him and Vader to co-operate well together? It woudl get in his way - hes a big guy after all!
Maul - well neither Qui-Gon or TMP Kenobi could beat him in fair fight . I wonder if Qui-Gon died deliberately so Maul would lose to Kenobi and Kenobi would train Ani but I've not read novel so I wouldn't know and part of me is sure Maul beat him fair and square. Qui-Gon was so I've heard on par with Mace during their training though I wonder if this is BEFORE Mace mastered Vaapad. So maybe Qui-Gon isn't really a good match. Vader did however beat Maul when he was brought back to life and so Vader would be the bigger threat.
Mace himself as I've said would be nearly as physically strong as Vader and certainly stronger than Maul and his Vaapad would return the darkness the 2 sith fire at him back to them and also his shatterpoint. He could sense the vectors that make up Vader's suit and use minimal energy to exploit it...
Hmmm VERY difficult. I'd have to say I just don't know. For some reason I can see Mace having too much to handle here BUT I can also see him coming out victorious using the things I thought were pitted against him to his advantage. I'm most inclined to say Mace wins with great difficulty

Oh and I should also mention in Mace's defence that Vader in suit was beaten by Luke who I am pretty sure has no where NEAR the level of skill Mace has - though he is skilled and was using his rage etc.

Originally posted by zephiel7
Ah, I see.

Come on, give the big black man the credit he is due.

Of course I'll give Vader the credit he is due.

LMAO!!!

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Of course I'll give Vader the credit he is due.

Vader is a wigger.

He is a white man trying to be black.

Mace is a poser.

He tries to be all bad-ass, but he's a peace lovin' hug preachin', field skippin' virgin.

Is this ROTS Vader? If so then the Sith win. Vader alone would give him trouble - Vader's faster, as astrong physically and has more energy. Mace has Vaapad, which is good against Dark Siders, has more experience and is stronger with the Force so he alone'd beat Vader but with Maul there, well, Maul alone is about as fast as Mace and his saber skills arn't far behind. If nothing else Mace loses because he would get tired before either of the Sith would. Maul might die, though, and would most likely get hurt as a minimum.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Is this ROTS Vader?

No, it's real Vader.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
No, it's real Vader.
Well, eitehr way the Sith win, so I guess it doesn't matter which Vader this is, ROTS or OT.

Agreed.

Originally posted by zephiel7
Care to back up this unproven statement?

Necromancy, I know, but:

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=82&page=14

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=77&page=68 >
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=77&page=69

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=86&page=08
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=86&page=19

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=69&page=13
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=69&page=15
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=69&page=18
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=69&page=22

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=66&page=06

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=75&page=88
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=75&page=89
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=75&page=97

Also: Is this canon?
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=153&page=23
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=153&page=24

Vader also rips apart Wrosher trees (blaster fire did nothing to them), Controls his lightsaber from far distances even when a Jedi tries to interfere from close range, throws many objects at Luke and a lot more.

Mace couldn't contend with force attacks like these, especially with Maul there for a melee distraction.

Vader himself is as good or better than Mace.

2. Actually its the dark rage within Kun, not how angry Kun is at the time. The dark rage within him always stays the same, whether he's amused, happy, irritated etc. - it stays constant.

3. There are probably more ways of defending against the amulet blasts, telekinesis for instance. Also I never did get what people meant when they say that Luke can just create a loop with the force. How exactly dos it work?

...?

Oops, wrong forum. I was using KMC spellcheck and I posted by accident.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Darth Vader alone would be a match for Windu(mind you he wouldn't beat him), so adding Maul would be too much. Then again, Maul's style requires space so the cohesiveness between the two is going to be shaky considering Vader uses powerful slashes.


Actually my apprentice, Mace Windu could beat Darth Vader, without Vapaad he would have at least a good 50-50 chance, with it, Vader wouldn't stand much of a chance. Also, Juyo dosen't require alot of space to use, your confusing it with Ataru, which does.

The art of Juyo can be utilised specially within close quarters range. (As seen with the fight of Darth Maul VS Qui-Gon Jinn.)
shifty

Darth Vader might not be as fast as his former self, but he's still very good. He has mastered the Dark Side and many other lightsaber abilities including the use of Makashi/Djem So while using the Force with another hand. Mace's Force Crush might be deadly, but Vader can probably block it by throwing something.

Mace withou Vapaad WILLL LOSE to Vader. Only by using Vapaad can Mace actually defeat him, and this will be a close duel.

Vader, as I have mentioned hundreds of times before, grows up to 80% of Sidious. 80% of Sidious is Count Dooku. Mace Windu I would say is anywhere from 80-92% of Sidious.

Therefore, Mace MIGHT be better than Darth Vader however the Dark Lord will put up a good deal of a fight.

Maul and Vader would easily defeat mace windu.

Darth exiest. I smell a sock

I doubt Windu could keep up with a force user like Vader. Vader's typical strategy is engage in lightsaber combat, if they're tough, own them with the force. I don't see why this would play out differently.

Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
Darth Vader might not be as fast as his former self, but he's still very good. He has mastered the Dark Side and many other lightsaber abilities including the use of Makashi/Djem So while using the Force with another hand. Mace's Force Crush might be deadly, but Vader can probably block it by throwing something.

Mace withou Vapaad WILLL LOSE to Vader. Only by using Vapaad can Mace actually defeat him, and this will be a close duel.

Vader, as I have mentioned hundreds of times before, grows up to 80% of Sidious. 80% of Sidious is Count Dooku. Mace Windu I would say is anywhere from 80-92% of Sidious.

Therefore, Mace MIGHT be better than Darth Vader however the Dark Lord will put up a good deal of a fight.

Maul and Vader would easily defeat mace windu.


Wow, Quinlan that was well said. thumbsup
I think you said it even better than I did.
But wasen't Vader already alot more powerful than Count Dooku?

You're good too Sexist

Mace's force crush could be countered by Vader pushing outwards with the force ( http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=82&page=14 ), and Vader is much better at force attacks. Vader would hold his own in saber combat, break away, and then outclass Mace with the force.

Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
Vader himself is as good or better than Mace.

Oh yeah ? He is ?
May I remind you that Vader is limited to 80 % of Sidious power...the same Sidious that had his ass handed to Mace Windu in a lightsaber fight ? So how is Vader "as good or better" than Mace given that this is Vader in his suit ?

And Maul ? Maul was destroyed by Sidious in a lightsaber duel. Sidious was moving his blade so and precise around Maul that Maul would have been cut if he had moved a single muscle. Still...the same Sidious that had his ass handed to Mace Windu in a lightsaber duel.

I'd say Mace obliterates Maul and then takes Vader down...

Originally posted by Forcemaster
The place where Luke confronts Vader is called The Cave of Despair. Vader and Maul would swamp Windu. No pun intended.

My ass ermm

Anyway, it depends on which era Windu and which era Vader it is. If it's ROTS, then Windu is going to lose. A ROTS Windu vs. Vader fight would be debatable, and add a TPM Maul to ROTS Vader, and Windu will lose after putting up quite a fight. But if this is damaged Vader, then he has to protect his chest where is life support system is, or he had to when fighting Roan Shryne (sp?). Windu's Vaapad would probably make it extremely difficult for Vader to block them all, as he is seriously hindered. Maul would keep Windu distracted, but he would win. So...

Windu vs. OT Vader and TPM Maul = Windu
Windu vs. ROTS Vader and TPM Maul = the duo

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh yeah ? He is ?
May I remind you that Vader is limited to 80 % of Sidious power...the same Sidious that had his ass handed to Mace Windu in a lightsaber fight ? So how is Vader "as good or better" than Mace given that this is Vader in his suit ?

And Maul ? Maul was destroyed by Sidious in a lightsaber duel. Sidious was moving his blade so and precise around Maul that Maul would have been cut if he had moved a single muscle. Still...the same Sidious that had his ass handed to Mace Windu in a lightsaber duel.

I'd say Mace obliterates Maul and then takes Vader down...


Ass handed is a bit of an overstatement isen't it? They were totally equal until Mace sensed his shatterpoint....


Yeah, the same Sidious, except that Sidious by ROTS hasn't held a saber for 13 years straight....

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh yeah ? He is ?
May I remind you that Vader is limited to 80 % of Sidious power...the same Sidious that had his ass handed to Mace Windu in a lightsaber fight ? So how is Vader "as good or better" than Mace given that this is Vader in his suit ?

And Maul ? Maul was destroyed by Sidious in a lightsaber duel. Sidious was moving his blade so and precise around Maul that Maul would have been cut if he had moved a single muscle. Still...the same Sidious that had his ass handed to Mace Windu in a lightsaber duel.

I'd say Mace obliterates Maul and then takes Vader down...
Maybe we're forgetting Nai, but power is a bit seperate from a saber battle, and Mace didn't twitch and put Sidious down, they were very, very much on par.
Maul considered himself at least an even match for Mace and was able to take down Qui-Gon, by all accounts on par with Mace at that time. Granted, he got better...but so did Vader and Sidious throughout the years.

and last I checked, Palpatine got stronger. Is it 'eighty percent' of ROTS Sidious or the stronger Ot version? Which, again, has no regards to swordsmanship, especially from a guy like Vader who managed to destroy Roan Shryne, one of the Order's best bladesmen...and Anoon Bondarra was another extremely skilled bladesman in the Jedi Order. Maul's ability left him with suicide as his only option.

Vader also managed to counter...five Jedi at once? Experienced masters and knights? Including one who was a Jedi AND Morgukai trained, considered to be 'unstoppabe' in battle?

And Vader is, at least, on par with Mace.

To quote a wise man I once knew:

Originally posted by jollyjim311
I doubt Windu could keep up with a force user like Vader. Vader's typical strategy is engage in lightsaber combat, if they're tough, own them with the force. I don't see why would play out differently.

Ass handed, umm, Mace was fighting as hard as Sidious. Sidious could have overwhelmed Mace with Lightning or another Force Power. ROTS Anakin is about hmmm, maybe 86% of Sidious. Vader might be around 86-95%. Mace is around 90% of Sidious. Therefore, Vader is basically on the same level as Mace. Mace MIGHT win (it's possible, though I say they're equal) but Vader himself can deal with him for a good time, and with Maul they easily overcome Windu.

windu hax and wins <drunken randomness>

Windu loses badly <perfectly aware of surroundings, I am>

then the emperor deletes his account i expect

we all know mace at least takes out 1

Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
Well sources say that Maul is a practicioner of Vapaad, though I am not a 100% sure. Anyway, Mace woudn't win in saber combat. Darth Vader would overcome him.

They say that Maul was a Juyo practioner. Not Vapaad. Vapaad was created by Mace Windu. The only ones who knew it were his former padawan and Sora Bulq. Both turned to the dark side over 10 years after Maul's death

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
This is a debating forum bro, not an "I think" forum. Robot Vader is absolutely no match for Mace Windu in terms of saber combat. We DO judge Mace by his win over Sidious in ROTS, along with Shatterpoint and CW cartoons. ANd please don't start blaming the 70's fights on choreography, because I can refute that by saying Vader was a robot who lacked agility, and Luke hadn't learned a single light saber form.

lacked agility? a flashback from crimson empire breaks your assumption of vaders lack of agility

and btw vader underestimated luke because he had beat him before and thought luke was still a wuss, that was why vader fell, if his emotions had completely been destroyed, he would not give a jack who luke is and kill him rather than listen to the emperor

well id have to saw vaapad could whoop vaders ass, vader is one angry guy and doesnt vaapad reflect its opponents anger against it?
like a mirror? so it be like as if vader vs vader

Originally posted by Council#13
They say that Maul was a Juyo practioner. Not Vapaad. Vapaad was created by Mace Windu. The only ones who knew it were his former padawan and Sora Bulq. Both turned to the dark side over 10 years after Maul's death on wikipedia it said that darth maul had uncomplete training in vapaad but idk maybe he didnt

Yeah, He diden't.