World Religions
Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.
JesusIsAlive
http://wri.leaderu.com/pages.html (Testimonies of conversion from various religions to Christianity )
Do All Paths Lead to the Same Destination?
Keith E. Johnson
Is it possible that Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, etc. represent differing, yet valid, paths to the same destination? This article examines arguments for and against the claim that all paths lead to the same destination.
http://wri.leaderu.com/articles/paths.html
Apostasy and Freedom of Conscience
The near-execution of an Afghan Muslim who converted to Christianity provoked an international outcry because it violated a basic human right - freedom of conscience. The tragedy is: Muslim nations restrict or abuse basic human freedoms, but this should not blind westerners to their failings. Freedom is also abused in the west - albeit somewhat differently - resulting in moral laxity and perversion. To find a spiritual freedom
Read on...
Why Islam shuts down freedom
http://answering-islam.org/Clarke/apostasy.html
DigiMark007
Would testimony of un-converting from Christianity, from noted philosopher and all-around good guy Dr. Teh Myself, be appropriate here?
No? I guess not.
All religions have words, guidelines, rules, etc. And somewhere, there are people who abuse them all, and people who use them for good. That hasn't changed, and I really doubt reading some diatribe on the ills of Islam or the wonders of converting from one religion to another will do anything to make me realize otherwise.
debbiejo
ALL PATHS LEAD TO THE SAME DESTINATION........YEP.............IMO
Lord Urizen
You guys make the mistake of paying him attention....
Just don't respond to his posts....he'll give it up eventually :rollseyes:
JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Would testimony of un-converting from Christianity, from noted philosopher and all-around good guy Dr. Teh Myself, be appropriate here?
No? I guess not.
All religions have words, guidelines, rules, etc. And somewhere, there are people who abuse them all, and people who use them for good. That hasn't changed, and I really doubt reading some diatribe on the ills of Islam or the wonders of converting from one religion to another will do anything to make me realize otherwise.
Sure it would. Why wouldn't it be?
DigiMark007
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
You guys make the mistake of paying him attention....
Just don't respond to his posts....he'll give it up eventually :rollseyes:
Call me a hopeless optimist....I'm still trying.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Sure it would. Why wouldn't it be?
Alright, I'll bite, since you seem at least mildly receptive to it. Here's my "de-conversion" in a nutshell:
Christianity has many wonderful stories and teachings. These stories and teachings coincide with many other stories, mythologies, and religions. In my various studies, most of them within mythology, it became plain that the story of Jesus (and even Moses before him as well as the earlier books of the Bible) has been told in countless forms throughout the ages. Most of these stories predate Christianity, thus making it clear that the stories of the Christian faith are largely (almost entirely) borrowed from earlier sources that were teaching the same things.
The Savior-figure who is both God and Man is an old tale, and was told countless times before Jesus.
The crux of it: All of it can be viewed symbolically as the divinity within any of us, and the idea of a resurrection is a metaphorical spiritual rebirth as well. Those ideas are universal throughout much of history, and are very powerful. But to believe that the Bible has the only truth becomes destructive because it belittles other teachings with the same value.
...
Most people on this site don't have a problem with many of the teachings of Christ. They have a problem with Christians who are overly prophetic about it, to the point of being condescending, and those who warp religious teachings to serve their own social, political, or moral agendas. You fall into that first category, possibly the second, which is why people give you such a hard time.
...k...done now.
JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Call me a hopeless optimist....I'm still trying.
Alright, I'll bite, since you seem at least mildly receptive to it. Here's my "de-conversion" in a nutshell:
Christianity has many wonderful stories and teachings. These stories and teachings coincide with many other stories, mythologies, and religions. In my various studies, most of them within mythology, it became plain that the story of Jesus (and even Moses before him as well as the earlier books of the Bible) has been told in countless forms throughout the ages. Most of these stories predate Christianity, thus making it clear that the stories of the Christian faith are largely (almost entirely) borrowed from earlier sources that were teaching the same things.
The Savior-figure who is both God and Man is an old tale, and was told countless times before Jesus.
The crux of it: All of it can be viewed symbolically as the divinity within any of us, and the idea of a resurrection is a metaphorical spiritual rebirth as well. Those ideas are universal throughout much of history, and are very powerful. But to believe that the Bible has the only truth becomes destructive because it belittles other teachings with the same value.
...
Most people on this site don't have a problem with many of the teachings of Christ. They have a problem with Christians who are overly prophetic about it, to the point of being condescending, and those who warp religious teachings to serve their own social, political, or moral agendas. You fall into that first category, possibly the second, which is why people give you such a hard time.
...k...done now.
But considering EVERYTHING that you've written, how do you (not necessarily YOU) explain countless miracles that are performed on behalf of many people all over the world who have no Jesus-bias? Many miracles (deaf receiving their hearing, blind eyes opened, dead people being raised from the dead, including people being HEALED from terminal illnesses) can be CONFIRMED by physicians and other medical personnel. There are an innumerable number of cases of the abovementioned miracles (and others that I have not cited) ocurring all over the the world in remote countries as well as here in the continental U.S. These miracles cannot just be explained away, not even by you or anyone else on this forum site. I know we all have egos and we THINK we know the answer but folks: if doctors and scientists (erudite, educated, scholary, devoted, people who scrutinize EVERYTHING) CANNOT explain the many cases of miracles that they see regularly then I am not inclined to believe that someone who has not submitted to what they have gone through (YEARS, not months of study and learning) can either.
JesusIsAlive
>> You my friend are also flawed in your stating that
>"athiesm has nothing to do with faith." Every belief,
>whether it be in God or not, needs to have faith
>(reason for believing it to be true). I believe in
>God, i have faith in Him. You on the other hand
>believe in and thus have faith in human logic, in the
>"achievements in man" that it explains everything.
>Even though you are an athiest, you have faith in
>yourself, do you not? Thus athiesm is all about
>faith, faith in human logic, not faith in God.
> Another question. When human logic and/or
>science, fail to explain something, where do you turn
>to for answers? In this question i am referring to
>miracles. Some people, after being prayed for have
>had unexplainable healings- healings that even doctors
>will confirm, but know not how to explain. How do you
>explain these?
> Over all, you have failed to realize that,
>whether or not you believe in God, the Biblical
>Prophecies have and will continue to happen, right up
>till the day of Judgement. I pray you will find the
>truth before then.
>~a friend~
I saw this on another forum I copied and pasted here.
Impediment
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c166/Impediment/PWHPP.jpg
JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by Impediment
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c166/Impediment/PWHPP.jpg
Knowing Jesus Christ and having a RELATIONSHIP with God the Father THROUGH Jesus Christ IS NOT a religion.
Semanitcs?
Splitting hairs?
Jesus never used the word religion. The word never once left His mouth. If you can find where Jesus Christ said the word religion (literally, and verbally out of His mouth) then I will leave this site forever.
detective
Shakyamunison
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Knowing Jesus Christ and having a RELATIONSHIP with God the Father THROUGH Jesus Christ IS NOT a religion.
Semanitcs?
Splitting hairs?
Jesus never used the word religion. The word never once left His mouth. If you can find where Jesus Christ said the word religion (literally, and verbally out of His mouth) then I will leave this site forever.
detective
You are Splitting hairs. Christianity is a family of religions, Just like Buddhism is a family of religions.
Regret
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Knowing Jesus Christ and having a RELATIONSHIP with God the Father THROUGH Jesus Christ IS NOT a religion.
Semanitcs?
Splitting hairs?
Jesus never used the word religion. The word never once left His mouth. If you can find where Jesus Christ said the word religion (literally, and verbally out of His mouth) then I will leave this site forever.
detective
All the same, James stated:
These are what Christ taught. Thus Christ taught religion by the word of an apostle.
JesusIsAlive
http://wri.leaderu.com/pages/montenegro.html
What a POWERFUL testimony!
Storm
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
But considering EVERYTHING that you've written, how do you (not necessarily YOU) explain countless miracles that are performed on behalf of many people all over the world who have no Jesus-bias? Many miracles (deaf receiving their hearing, blind eyes opened, dead people being raised from the dead, including people being HEALED from terminal illnesses) can be CONFIRMED by physicians and other medical personnel. There are an innumerable number of cases of the abovementioned miracles (and others that I have not cited) ocurring all over the the world in remote countries as well as here in the continental U.S. These miracles cannot just be explained away, not even by you or anyone else on this forum site. I know we all have egos and we THINK we know the answer but folks: if doctors and scientists (erudite, educated, scholary, devoted, people who scrutinize EVERYTHING) CANNOT explain the many cases of miracles that they see regularly then I am not inclined to believe that someone who has not submitted to what they have gone through (YEARS, not months of study and learning) can either.
Even if we grant that a "miraculous" event is indeed exceptional enough to warrant an exceptional explanation, we could, for example, postulate that the event was caused by the incredible powers of human minds rather than the incredible powers of a god' s mind. This explanation is no less credible and in fact has the advantage that we know that humans minds exist, whereas the existence of a god' s mind is questionable.
If someone is going to advance one supernatural, paranormal or unusual explanation for an exceptional event, they have to be willing to consider every other supernatural, paranormal or unusual explanation. The question which thus faces the believer is: how can one possibly compare all these different explanations? How on earth can one reasonably support the idea that something occurred because of a god rather than human telepathy or ghosts?
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
>> You my friend are also flawed in your stating that
>"athiesm has nothing to do with faith." Every belief,
>whether it be in God or not, needs to have faith
>(reason for believing it to be true). I believe in
>God, i have faith in Him. You on the other hand
>believe in and thus have faith in human logic, in the
>"achievements in man" that it explains everything.
>Even though you are an athiest, you have faith in
>yourself, do you not? Thus athiesm is all about
>faith, faith in human logic, not faith in God.
I saw this on another forum I copied and pasted here.
Not necessarily. If you know that a person is an atheist, then you know that he or she lacks belief in gods. Nothing more, nothing less.
JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by Storm
Even if we grant that a "miraculous" event is indeed exceptional enough to warrant an exceptional explanation, we could, for example, postulate that the event was caused by the incredible powers of human minds rather than the incredible powers of a god' s mind. This explanation is no less credible and in fact has the advantage that we know that humans minds exist, whereas the existence of a god' s mind is questionable. If someone is going to advance one supernatural, paranormal or unusual explanation for an exceptional event, they have to be willing to consider every other supernatural, paranormal or unusual explanation. The question which thus faces the believer is: how can one possibly compare all these different explanations? How on earth can one reasonably support the idea that something occurred because of a god rather than human telepathy or ghosts?
Storm, I read everything that you wrote. I understand where you are coming from. But...how can a HUMAN mind produce a MIRACLE? How can someone who is terminally ill be healed from that condition by the human mind? How can someone who is blind all of a sudden see by virture of the human mind? How can a person who was dead (clinically dead: no heartbeat no brain waves. I think this constitutes clinical death.) be raised from the dead by the mind?
Yet NONE of the aforementioned events were effected by the mind; they were done by God's power.
Furthermore, if the mind is so great then how come the mind has not overcome crime, sickness and disease, poverty and all of humankind's other problems? Things are just getting worse: read your daily newspaper. In conclusion, how come the human mind CANNOT OVERCOME DEATH?
I leave you with those final words...
Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Storm, I read everything that you wrote. I understand where you are coming from. But...how can a HUMAN mind produce a MIRACLE? How can someone who is terminally ill be healed from that condition by the human mind? How can someone who is blind all of a sudden see by virture of the human mind? How can a person who was dead (clinically dead: no heartbeat no brain waves. I think this constitutes clinical death.) be raised from the dead by the mind?
Depends. There have been people who could not walk or hear or see for no apparent medical reason, but rather a mental one. Likewise their have been people whose illness was not as physically set in stone as they or others may have believed and have miraculously "overcome" the illness only for it to be postulated that perhaps the illness was psychological in nature to begin with.
And in dead case - are we talking Jesus and Lazarus? If that is case then that is far from a case of evidence that doctors have been rendered speechless by, as they have no evidence of it. However, once again in modern times there are cases of trances and comas of such a nature that all but the most in depth examination will fail to turn up life signs. Of course people come out of such things sometimes, often giving undertakers quite a scare. But anyway, you are focusing to much on the mind part of Storm's post - the question is merely being asked how if you are putting forward and explanation that is supernatural in nature how you can then rule out all the other supernatural explanations - people with healing powers (medicine men, witches, Shaman etc.) or supernatural beings (Ghosts, spirits etc)
Which is your claim, which is fine. Of course there are people who claim similar for their God's, or to have a power that lets them do things. It is all about how you see it - there are those who think energy is involved, and that through the mind energy can be directed, we talk about chi blockages, the power of crystals, meditation, chanting and whatever aimed at directing the mind to purify or heal. Are these true? Who knows, which is the point - they are also explanations of a supernatural/divine nature that by rights deserve consideration along with any other explanation that puts forward a supernatural/divine cause in the absence of a sufficient scientific reason.
And why can't God? Oh I forgot, he can, but for most part he doesn't do anything, just occasionally healing a person here or there or some illness - never actually doing anything about crime or poverty. And where do peoples illness come from? The random things? The genetic things? The diseases that developed naturally? But anyway - we can't overcome death - yet. But with science... who knows? It has already pushed it back so we live longer now then we did before. And we haven't overcome crime or poverty? It seems to me that we are the only ones capable of this - and humans are the only ones that actually do anything about it.
JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Depends. There have been people who could not walk or hear or see for no apparent medical reason, but rather a mental one. Likewise their have been people whose illness was not as physically set in stone as they or others may have believed and have miraculously "overcome" the illness only for it to be postulated that perhaps the illness was psychological in nature to begin with.
And in dead case - are we talking Jesus and Lazarus? If that is case then that is far from a case of evidence that doctors have been rendered speechless by, as they have no evidence of it. However, once again in modern times there are cases of trances and comas of such a nature that all but the most in depth examination will fail to turn up life signs. Of course people come out of such things sometimes, often giving undertakers quite a scare. But anyway, you are focusing to much on the mind part of Storm's post - the question is merely being asked how if you are putting forward and explanation that is supernatural in nature how you can then rule out all the other supernatural explanations - people with healing powers (medicine men, witches, Shaman etc.) or supernatural beings (Ghosts, spirits etc)
Which is your claim, which is fine. Of course there are people who claim similar for their God's, or to have a power that lets them do things. It is all about how you see it - there are those who think energy is involved, and that through the mind energy can be directed, we talk about chi blockages, the power of crystals, meditation, chanting and whatever aimed at directing the mind to purify or heal. Are these true? Who knows, which is the point - they are also explanations of a supernatural/divine nature that by rights deserve consideration along with any other explanation that puts forward a supernatural/divine cause in the absence of a sufficient scientific reason.
And why can't God? Oh I forgot, he can, but for most part he doesn't do anything, just occasionally healing a person here or there or some illness - never actually doing anything about crime or poverty. And where do peoples illness come from? The random things? The genetic things? The diseases that developed naturally? But anyway - we can't overcome death - yet. But with science... who knows? It has already pushed it back so we live longer now then we did before. And we haven't overcome crime or poverty? It seems to me that we are the only ones capable of this - and humans are the only ones that actually do anything about it.
Through Christ Jesus I have eternal life. That means that though I may die physically I will live forever in His presence. If I die before Jesus returns my body will be raised from the dead and will never die again. The Bible says that the former thing have passed away (i.e., death, sorrow, crying, or pain). This is my guarantee with God.
Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Through Christ Jesus I have eternal life. That means that though I may die physically I will live forever in His presence. If I die before Jesus returns my body will be raised from the dead and will never die again. The Bible says that the former thing have passed away (i.e., death, sorrow, crying, or pain). This is my guarantee with God.
Ok.... though a nice notification, it doesn't seem that relevant to what Storm or I was getting at.
Storm
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Furthermore, if the mind is so great then how come the mind has not overcome crime, sickness and disease, poverty and all of humankind's other problems? Things are just getting worse: read your daily newspaper. In conclusion, how come the human mind CANNOT OVERCOME DEATH?
I leave you with those final words...
Inch by inch, we do or try at least. They exist because of the choices we make. If we choose, if we have the will to act, we can make them history.
DigiMark007
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
But considering EVERYTHING that you've written, how do you (not necessarily YOU) explain countless miracles that are performed on behalf of many people all over the world who have no Jesus-bias? Many miracles (deaf receiving their hearing, blind eyes opened, dead people being raised from the dead, including people being HEALED from terminal illnesses) can be CONFIRMED by physicians and other medical personnel. There are an innumerable number of cases of the abovementioned miracles (and others that I have not cited) ocurring all over the the world in remote countries as well as here in the continental U.S. These miracles cannot just be explained away, not even by you or anyone else on this forum site. I know we all have egos and we THINK we know the answer but folks: if doctors and scientists (erudite, educated, scholary, devoted, people who scrutinize EVERYTHING) CANNOT explain the many cases of miracles that they see regularly then I am not inclined to believe that someone who has not submitted to what they have gone through (YEARS, not months of study and learning) can either.
Can't explain miracles? The human mind and body are capable of a lot. And a "miracle" doesn't necessarily validate Christianity. It just validates what we perceive to be miracles.
And could you or your beliefs explain the documented cases of reincarnation (there's thousands of highly-researched, confirmed cases) that we have? That's just one example. But it goes to show that there's more to this world than your single religion.
Lord Urizen
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
But considering EVERYTHING that you've written, how do you (not necessarily YOU) explain countless miracles that are performed on behalf of many people all over the world who have no Jesus-bias? Many miracles (deaf receiving their hearing, blind eyes opened, dead people being raised from the dead, including people being HEALED from terminal illnesses) can be CONFIRMED by physicians and other medical personnel.
A Very good and Highly Convincing Point.....
IF that's the only way you look at it.
I have heard reports of people having thier lives and health changed from Buddhism as well. I have heard reports from a man who promotes "Dream Healing", and many testify to having terminal cancer cured, having disabilities vanish, etc.
There are also many scientificly proven reports of many diseases that are uncurable in United States, which were cured in China and other parts of Asia with thier oriental methods of medicine.
AT the same time, there are reports of simply VERY HEALTHY people who overcome nightmares such as AIDS, Cancer, etc. ON THIER OWN...with no religious or medical interference.
The point is that for every Christian "miracle", you will find OTHER miracles that are independent of Christianity. You cannot say that Christ is the ONLY healer, when others have been healed through other methods.
As for resurrection of dead people....now i KNOW your crazy....
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
There are an innumerable number of cases of the abovementioned miracles (and others that I have not cited) ocurring all over the the world in remote countries as well as here in the continental U.S. These miracles cannot just be explained away, not even by you or anyone else on this forum site.
Like I said, there are also many other unexplainable miracles which occured through OTHER means besides Christian Faith.
On the FLIP SIDE, JIA, there are MANY MANY Faithful people who claim that Christian Faith did NOT WORK, and that no such miracles occured for them. Tons of prayers go unanswered, and TONS of beleivers get dissapointed when they are STILL suffering, DESPITE thier patience and Faith.
"Why has God abandoned me" has been a question, that unfortunately, MANY many many people on this world have asked.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I know we all have egos and we THINK we know the answer but folks: if doctors and scientists (erudite, educated, scholary, devoted, people who scrutinize EVERYTHING) CANNOT explain the many cases of miracles that they see regularly then I am not inclined to believe that someone who has not submitted to what they have gone through (YEARS, not months of study and learning) can either.
None of us THINK we know the answer....hypocritically, YOU are the only person on this thread who THINKS he knows Absolute Truth, and compells the rest of us to beleive.
Most of us ACCEPT that we do not know everything, yet we are open to infinite possibilities. YOU on the other hand, claim you know Absolute Truth, claim your belief as FACT, and then disregard ALL OTHER OPINIONS AND TRUTHS that come to the table.
Don't be a hypocrit
Shakyamunison
Christianity is a world religion.
JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by Storm
Inch by inch, we do or try at least. They exist because of the choices we make. If we choose, if we have the will to act, we can make them history.
But you cannot eradicate death.
As a Christian death for me is nothing more than a change of address to a temporary location until my body is resurrected and I return to this planet.
Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
But you cannot eradicate death.
As a Christian death for me is nothing more than a change of address to a temporary location until my body is resurrected and return to this planet.
No yet. But one day, it is quite possible. And when that one day comes, would you accept a needle jab if science had over come death?
And as to the second - it is that same old chestnut. It is faith - we have no proof Christianity overcomes death, just the hope/faith it does.
JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
http://wri.leaderu.com/pages/montenegro.html
What a POWERFUL testimony!
By far the MOST POWERFUL TESTIMONY TO DATE.
notworthy
Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
By far the MOST POWERFUL TESTIMONY TO DATE.
notworthy
I always find it funny that stories of that nature have certain features when they turn out to be pro-Christian that no other person has in a similar field -
First, its higgildy/piggildy. I know people deeply invested in the study of spiritualism, mysticism etc (usually for scholarly purposes, but some think their might be something real to it.) Yet few of them go so over the top and are into everything as this chap is. It seems then, when the conversion inevitably comes, he has been a part of so many things it would be impossible to pick which one was bad - as such they just throw a blanket over the lot a say "to be on the safe side all of this is bad." Buddhism, Hinduism, tarot, occult whatever. All bad. I was a part of it all, something bad happened, best to just say it is all bad. Most people interested in this seem only to invest in a certain few areas. But all of them like this guy?
Second - there is always a moment when some vengeful spirit tries to take over the body. This only ever seem to happen in the Christian versions. None of the people I know claim to have ever had it happen to them, even the ones who have been doing it for a long time. I wonder why? What is special about people who who will turn Christian that just seems to draw vengeful old women spirits who try to claim their bodies?
Most powerful testimony to date? It seems like trying to claim one glass of water is so much wetter then another glass of equally wet water.
JesusIsAlive
http://wri.leaderu.com/pages/maharaj.html
(excerpt from the above link)
"After my father's funeral, I became a favorite subject for the palm-readers and astrologers who frequented our house. Our family would hardly make an important decision without consulting an astrologer, so it was vital that my future be confirmed in the same way. It was encouraging to learn that the lines on my palms and the planets and stars, according to those who interpreted them, all agreed I would become a great Hindu leader. I was obviously a chosen vessel, destined for early success in the search for union with Brahman (the One). The forces that had guided my father were now guiding me.
I was only eleven and already many people were bowing before me, laying gifts of money, cotton cloth, and other treasures at my feet and hanging garlands of flowers around my neck at religious ceremonies.
How I loved religious ceremonies -- especially private ones in our own home or those of others, where friends and relatives would crowd in. There I would be the center of attention, admired by all. I loved to move through the audience, sprinkling holy water on worshipers or marking foreheads with the sacred white sandalwood paste. I also loved how the worshipers, after the ceremony, bowed low before me to leave their offerings at my feet."
With this kind of destiny HOW did this young boy end up becoming a chrisitan?
Yet another POWERFUL testimony!
Gregory
You're still around?
Pity.
You know what's an even more powerful testimony? There was a prince who had every single one of his wants tended to, and never lacked anything. But he became an ascetic, and devoted his life to eliminating suffering.
Of course, that was long ago. Let's consider Larry Gene Weinman, who, despite being born and raised Christian, converted to the true faith of Islam. What POWERFUL testimony!
Abdullah ibn Sailam ibn al-Harith was a famous rabbi, widely respected by every one, even non-Jews. But he also converted to the TRUE FAITH of ISLAM!
Seriously, do you think you're making some sort of point? Why the hell do you think anyone would care about some Buddhist who converted to Christianity?
Lord Urizen
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
http://wri.leaderu.com/pages/maharaj.html
(excerpt from the above link)
"After my father's funeral, I became a favorite subject for the palm-readers and astrologers who frequented our house. Our family would hardly make an important decision without consulting an astrologer, so it was vital that my future be confirmed in the same way. It was encouraging to learn that the lines on my palms and the planets and stars, according to those who interpreted them, all agreed I would become a great Hindu leader. I was obviously a chosen vessel, destined for early success in the search for union with Brahman (the One). The forces that had guided my father were now guiding me.
I was only eleven and already many people were bowing before me, laying gifts of money, cotton cloth, and other treasures at my feet and hanging garlands of flowers around my neck at religious ceremonies.
How I loved religious ceremonies -- especially private ones in our own home or those of others, where friends and relatives would crowd in. There I would be the center of attention, admired by all. I loved to move through the audience, sprinkling holy water on worshipers or marking foreheads with the sacred white sandalwood paste. I also loved how the worshipers, after the ceremony, bowed low before me to leave their offerings at my feet."
With this kind of destiny HOW did this young boy end up becoming a chrisitan?
Yet another POWERFUL testimony!
All Little Kids like attention...especially when they think they are doing something great and everyone is applauding them for it.
Nothing unusual or special here.....what is your point ?
JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
http://wri.leaderu.com/pages/montenegro.html
What a POWERFUL testimony!
I just cannot get over the sincerity, candor, frankness, and honesty of this woman. She was a bona fide New Ager and yet as deep as she was into that stuff Jesus (Love Personified) reached out to her from Heaven and pulled her out of satan's hands.
Gregory
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I just cannot get over the sincerity, candor, frankness, and honesty of this woman
You are the only one. You are not going to converty anyone. Get over it.
JesusIsAlive
http://www.near-death.com/ritch.html
Dr. George Ritchie's near-death experience
"Suddenly I was aware that it was brighter, a lot brighter, than it had been. I stared in astonishment as the brightness increased, coming from nowhere, seeming to shine everywhere at once. All the light bulbs in the ward couldn't give off that much light. All the bulbs in the world couldn't! It was impossibly bright. It was like a million welders' lamps all blazing at once.
"I'm glad I don't have physical eyes at this moment," I thought. "This light would destroy the retina in a tenth of a second."
"No, I corrected myself, not the light. He. He would be too bright to look at."
For now I saw that it was not light but a man who had entered the room, or rather, a man made out of light, though this seemed no more possible to my mind than the incredible intensity of the brightness that made up his form.
The instant I perceived him, a command formed itself in my mind.
"Stand up!"
The words came from inside me, yet they had an authority my mere thoughts had never had. I got to my feet and as I did came the stupendous certainty:
"You are in the presence of the Son of God."
If this was the Son of God, then his name was Jesus. This person was power itself, older than time and yet more modern than anyone I had ever met.
Above all, with that same mysterious inner certainty, I knew that this man loved me. Far more even than power, what emanated from this presence was unconditional love. An astonishing love. A love beyond my wildest imagining. This love knew every unlovable thing about me - the quarrels with my stepmother, my explosive temper, the sex thoughts I could never control, every mean, selfish thought and action since the day I was born - and accepted me just the same. "
One word...
Wow!
Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I just cannot get over the sincerity, candor, frankness, and honesty of this woman. She was a bona fide New Ager and yet as deep as she was into that stuff Jesus (Love Personified) reached out to her from Heaven and pulled her out of satan's hands.
Guy at bus-stop: My, what a lovely sunny day it is.
Me: ? Actually its overcast.
Guy at bus stop: Yep. Lovely sun. Don't get many days this sunny.
Me: Ummm. Cloudy. Dark - not sunny.
Guy at Bus stop: Yes sir-ee, this day is special for its sun.
Me: Ok... I think I'll just stand over here, and there isn't really any sun.
Guy at Bus stop: I just can't get over how sunny it is...
Sorry, but it seems a bit like that. You must be seeing something I'm not. I've seen things like this before, with every faith on the planet - usually not being particularly nice to the faith they are leaving. I don't see anything especially amazing about it. As I pointed out before there are some things that make me question such claims (what I like to call features that only pop up in stories such as this.)
Yet you just keep posting it again and again and saying how amazing and amazing and orgasmic it is (ok, maybe not orgasmic, but it seems to be making you very happy.)
Gregory
Hey Jesus Boy, I have a question. Do you ever actually read anybody's replies to you? Because I'm not seeing much evidence of it if you are.
Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Gregory
Hey Jesus Boy, I have a question. Do you ever actually read anybody's replies to you? Because I'm not seeing much evidence of it if you are.
He never replies to mine and I have tried to get his attention.
xmarksthespot
Originally posted by Gregory
You are the only one. You are not going to converty anyone. Get over it. That's not entirely true.. I converted debbiejo to my religion...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0e/Spots_first_walk.jpg
Spotism... I'm working on Imperial Samura and Shaky too... they'll crack eventually...
JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
That's not entirely true.. I converted debbiejo to my religion...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0e/Spots_first_walk.jpg
Spotism... I'm working on Imperial Samura and Shaky too... they'll crack eventually...
leonheartmm
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Storm, I read everything that you wrote. I understand where you are coming from. But...how can a HUMAN mind produce a MIRACLE? How can someone who is terminally ill be healed from that condition by the human mind? How can someone who is blind all of a sudden see by virture of the human mind? How can a person who was dead (clinically dead: no heartbeat no brain waves. I think this constitutes clinical death.) be raised from the dead by the mind?
Yet NONE of the aforementioned events were effected by the mind; they were done by God's power.
Furthermore, if the mind is so great then how come the mind has not overcome crime, sickness and disease, poverty and all of humankind's other problems? Things are just getting worse: read your daily newspaper. In conclusion, how come the human mind CANNOT OVERCOME DEATH?
I leave you with those final words...
i have known people with PERSONAL mental powres strong enough to turn a person on the other end of the earth into a vegetable. see clearly into the future and rescue people from a falling 14 storey building seconds before its falls to the ground in a 7.8 magnitude earthquake. ive also seen people wipe clean the mind of an individual and read his mind and his deepest darkest secrets. survive stron venoms, disable humans and destroy rooms when theyr angry. all done by THEIR human mind{doesnt matter if u believe it or not, i know that i have not given any proof other than my own word and u SHUDT believe me on that but thats not the point im trying to make} some of them are muslims, others atheists. none{that i know though surely the exceptions must exist} have been christian. what im saying is there MIGHT be miraculous things in this world and its ONE thing to question whether hard science and mathematics is ALL there is to the world but QUITE another to say that they are completely WRONG and a baseless relegion which has been PROVEN wrong on countless different topics is RIGHT and SHOULD be accepted. try looking at EVIDENCE without a bias. science might not be ALL there is in the world but it rules it for the most part and even IF there is anything mytical in the world other than science{although i doubt VERY MUCH whether any of those PROCLAIMED events of healing are anything but bullshit. fact is these things dont work like that form what ive seen. unless u have very VERY factual, repeatable and TESTED facts about things like these happening INFRONT OF YOU and you logically looking at the person,history,enviornment etc with a sceptic professional or such u should NEVER believe such things as over 99% of them are fake} that doesnt mean that it automatically proves YOUR very SPECIFIC claim of mysticism true. there are many other claims by many other beliefs.
leonheartmm
mysticism might have something ot do with the phenomenon of BELIEF but not any specific KINDof belief. nor any RELEGION or dogma.
Lord Urizen
Originally posted by leonheartmm
mysticism might have something ot do with the phenomenon of BELIEF but not any specific KINDof belief. nor any RELEGION or dogma.
Dogmas suck
JesusIsAlive
"What is the biggest difference between my former life and my life in Christ? That I am happier, that life is easier? Not at all. The difference is that I am spiritually satisfied. There is more to learn and much room to grow, but the learning and growth spring from Christ as the foundation, not from a search outside Him. The search has ended; the thirst has been quenched; the hunger within has been filled."
--Marcia Montenegro
Storm
It will suit the spiritual needs of some people, but not everyone. If you feel that it is right for you, then pursue it. But there is no best choice for all people. There is only the best choice for you as an individual.
Templares
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
"What is the biggest difference between my former life and my life in Christ? That I am happier, that life is easier? Not at all. The difference is that I am spiritually satisfied. There is more to learn and much room to grow , but the learning and growth spring from Christ as the foundation, not from a search outside Him. The search has ended; the thirst has been quenched; the hunger within has been filled."
--Marcia Montenegro
Completely opposite from my experience but then spiritual satisfaction means jack sh!t to me.
Alliance
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
"What is the biggest difference between my former life and my life in Christ? That I am happier, that life is easier? Not at all. The difference is that I am spiritually satisfied. There is more to learn and much room to grow, but the learning and growth spring from Christ as the foundation, not from a search outside Him. The search has ended; the thirst has been quenched; the hunger within has been filled."
--Marcia Montenegro
If your not happy, why do it? Why sacrifice every other aspect of your being just to satisy one?
sounds idiotic to me....
Lord Urizen
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
"What is the biggest difference between my former life and my life in Christ? That I am happier, that life is easier? Not at all. The difference is that I am spiritually satisfied. There is more to learn and much room to grow, but the learning and growth spring from Christ as the foundation, not from a search outside Him. The search has ended; the thirst has been quenched; the hunger within has been filled."
--Marcia Montenegro
Like Storm said it doesn't work for everyone. There are tons of people who convert from Christianity to other religions or to Athiesm.
Christianity is not a "panecia" for unsatisfied spirits. There's a different need for every Individual.
JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by Storm
It will suit the spiritual needs of some people, but not everyone. If you feel that it is right for you, then pursue it. But there is no best choice for all people. There is only the best choice for you as an individual.
Storm, I hear you...I understand you...I feel you...But...
There is only one right Way to God.
My decision to follow Christ Jesus and to trust Him for salvation from my sins has nothing to do with an arbitrary choice. The only right choice for all people is Jesus the Christ.
Shakyamunison
^ There is only one right way for you. Please stop projecting your limits onto others.
Nellinator
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Please stop projecting your limits onto others.
You asked so nicely. Do you know how passive-agressive you are sometimes?
Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Nellinator
You asked so nicely. Do you know how passive-agressive you are sometimes?
Passive-agressive? I have never been accused of being that in the "real" world. Maybe something is getting lost in the translation.
Nellinator
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Passive-agressive? I have never been accused of being that in the "real" world. Maybe something is getting lost in the translation.
You know that you make remarks testing people's patience and temper sometimes. But unlike some you use very polite language so that if someone were to lash out at you they would be the accused even tough you provoke it. Do you see what I mean? I just think it is funny, that's all. It is especially humorous when it works.
Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Nellinator
You know that you make remarks testing people's patience and temper sometimes. But unlike some you use very polite language so that if someone were to lash out at you they would be the accused even tough you provoke it. Do you see what I mean? I just think it is funny, that's all. It is especially humorous when it works.
Yes, I set traps for people, because I want to know what is behind the post. If I am talking to a good person, like yourself, they will show that nature when under pressure. If an evil person is in the trap they like wise will show their nature.
BTW I don't believe people are good or evil, only their actions, but I didn't want to have to write a full page.
Lord Urizen
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Storm, I hear you...I understand you...I feel you...But...
There is only one right Way to God.
My decision to follow Christ Jesus and to trust Him for salvation from my sins has nothing to do with an arbitrary choice. The only right choice for all people is Jesus the Christ.
How do you know that ? Have you lived as every single person?
Throughout history soceities under Christianity, governments under Christianity for centuries have tried to live by God and horribly FAILED only causing more hatred, conflict, prejudice, and suffering to spread throughout people's lives.
Christianity has failed many times in the past for many people, how do you imagine it will work for anyone today ?
Nellinator
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Christianity has failed many times in the past for many people, how do you imagine it will work for anyone today ?
Yet governments based on Christianity and/or Biblical morals have proven far more successful than any liberal athiest government.
Templares
Our current laws are not based on Christian/Biblical morals; theyre largely derived from Roman law.
And most Western government setup date back only to the Age of Enlightenment.
And i have to say that Islamic law is way more enduring. Little changed since 6th century.
Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
"What is the biggest difference between my former life and my life in Christ? That I am happier, that life is easier? Not at all. The difference is that I am spiritually satisfied. There is more to learn and much room to grow, but the learning and growth spring from Christ as the foundation, not from a search outside Him. The search has ended; the thirst has been quenched; the hunger within has been filled."
--Marcia Montenegro
Fine. People can feel that if they want. I really don't mind. However I take umbrage at the suggestion that it is the only way. That a person is somehow "less" or "incomplete" if they don't follow that path. I have said it before - a person can be just as happy, just as full, just as successful, content whatever without a religious faith as those who have one. Not believing in God is no limitation.
So yes, you can feel that your life is more because of your faith, but by extension one should not go around claiming another's life is less because of they don't have it. Because it is rarely the case.
fini
Hey who wants pizza???
LOL @ shaky trying to flare tempers, hehe
Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Nellinator
Yet governments based on Christianity and/or Biblical morals have proven far more successful than any liberal athiest government.
Rome failed
All Kingdoms based on Christianity throughout History have failed
South America its entirely is unsuccessful, yet the governments are all Christian based.
Ireland's not doing to well
The Filipines aren't doing to well
The United States is not based on Christianity..it is based on freedom of religion among other things. And although there are a lot of Christian foundations in the U.S. there are also plenty of Liberal/Athiest foundations as well.
In terms of economics, civil rights, social unity, and over all beneficial prosperity, most areas with Christian Foundations have failed or are doing poorly.
Dr. Zaius
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Rome failed
All Kingdoms based on Christianity throughout History have failed
South America its entirely is unsuccessful, yet the governments are all Christian based.
Ireland's not doing to well
The Filipines aren't doing to well
The United States is not based on Christianity..it is based on freedom of religion among other things. And although there are a lot of Christian foundations in the U.S. there are also plenty of Liberal/Athiest foundations as well.
In terms of economics, civil rights, social unity, and over all beneficial prosperity, most areas with Christian Foundations have failed or are doing poorly.
1. All human governments falter at one time or another, whether they have Christian social underpinnings or not.
2. Most of the despotic governments of the twentieth century have openly professed atheism and hostility to relegious belief.
Draw any conclusions from this that you will.
Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
1. All human governments falter at one time or another, whether they have Christian social underpinnings or not.
2. Most of the despotic governments of the twentieth century have openly professed atheism and hostility to relegious belief.
Draw any conclusions from this that you will.
1) You still have not countered my actual points. Religion made no contribution to the success of happiness of any nation collectively. Religion is better suited for personal usage, and should stay outta politics.
2) The only example I can think of for your point is China.
Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by Nellinator
Yet governments based on Christianity and/or Biblical morals have proven far more successful than any liberal athiest government.
OMG!!! I wish I could find a copy of that owl that goes O RLY?
What proof, exactly, do you have for this? Historically speaking the most remembered, and culturally shaping some would say, governments where polytheistic. And very tolerant. Rome, Greece, the Egyptians etc. Christianity, some can argue quite convincingly, was the kiss of death for the West Roman Empire.
And are we talking the extreme Christianity of the Middle Ages? Those governments were certainly bundles of fun. Nations really started flourishing again when they cut the power to the Churches and their ability to influence a nations politics. The separation of Church and state was one of the most sound political decisions ever made.
True, true. Christianity does not protect a nations from the same considerations that effect everybody.
As opposed to all the Christian ones before the 20th century (yes, I am going back from the beginning of Christianity to moder times.) And it depends - are you simply looking at Communists and Fascists? Lets not forget the number of Islamic dictators. Or some of the Christian despots that the US and co. backed during the Cold War. And so on. But generally religion has been crippled in terms of exerting political control -ideology and culture have replaced it. I would say it is very debatable whether the Christian Church would be nearly as nice if it still had the considerable political control/power it had in the past (and that speaks for itself really.).
Shakyamunison
Originally posted by fini
Hey who wants pizza???
LOL @ shaky trying to flare tempers, hehe
No temper flaming, just giving people the opportunity to show their true colors.
Nellinator
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
What proof, exactly, do you have for this? Historically speaking the most remembered, and culturally shaping some would say, governments where polytheistic. And very tolerant. Rome, Greece, the Egyptians etc. Christianity, some can argue quite convincingly, was the kiss of death for the West Roman Empire.
And are we talking the extreme Christianity of the Middle Ages? Those governments were certainly bundles of fun. Nations really started flourishing again when they cut the power to the Churches and their ability to influence a nations politics. The separation of Church and state was one of the most sound political decisions ever made.
True, true. Christianity does not protect a nations from the same considerations that effect everybody.
I think to remember that nations founded on biblical principles can have separation of church and state and actually believe in the separation of church and state.
Christian nations that prospered under God:
1. Byzantium Empire 476-1483... over 1000 years. It became weaker as the orthodox church strayed further and further from the truth of the Bible. Its peak was under perhaps the most Christian emperor it had, Justinian (around 600AD if my memory is right).
2. British Empire from 1066-2006... fast approaching 1000 years and still extremely powerful. Once controlled the entire Commonwealth which was far bigger than the Roman Empire. Lost its empire and has gradually weakened in recent centuries as it separates from Biblical principles.
3. America 1776-2006... 230 years of greatness. The most powerful nation in the world and likely the most Christian. However, its position as a world superpower is undeniably in jeopardy as it separates itself from the Biblical principles it was founded on.
4. Holy Roman Empire... One of my weaker arguments. Was a European power on and off for about 700 years. It reached highest extent of powers under its more pious emperors (Charlemagne and Barbarossa who were flawed though).
5. South Korea... is currently booming and experiencing prosperity as it is one of the more Christian countries in the world. South Korea sends out more missionaries than any nation other than America.
6. Alberta, Canada (not a nation but still)... The most Christian province in Canada. Premier Ralph Klein was notorious for sticking to principles which while never Biblically based were Biblically attuned. The Conservative party averages around 65% of the vote in Alberta, usually in excess of 70% in rural areas. Alberta is the richest province in Canada has massive surpluses (the government gives money back to the people because it doesn't need tax money), and is so prosperous and booming that there is a labour SHORTAGE of around 30 000 in a province of only 3 000 000. I believe God is blessing the righteous and faithful there.
7. Some of you Americans may hate me for this, but despite his flaws... Castro made Cuba a much better place than it was under Baptista. Castro followed many Biblical principles rooting out centers of immorality and a lot of corruption (although he has since been corrupted).
The Great Non-Christian Empires:
1. Rome (so-called the greatest empire in existence) true international power only from 273 BC to 476AD. That's barely 600 years. The Western Roman Empire existed on Roman principles while the East relied on Christian principles. The West fell quickly.
2. Greece... never even united and was constantly at war with itself. Frequently conquered and subjected to foreign rule.
3. Alexander 11 years... clap, clap, clap
4. Medes and Persians about 300 years... not all that long, but was likely extended and aided because several of its kings acknowledged God.
5. Babylonians... though glorious it never controlled much land for very long, likely extended because it occasionally confessed God.
6. Assyrians... short-lived though extended through repentance.
7. Egyptians... frequently conquered and under foreign rule and never a true international power for very long.
8. Mongols... maybe 400 years, now one of the poorest nations in the world
9. Napoleon... not very long.
Other non-Christian failures:
1. USSR 1917-1991... denied God and accepted atheism which led to the horrible state of affairs it was in.
2. China from 1949-2006... you know its terrible problems.
3. Cuba under Baptista. An absolute disaster.
Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by Nellinator
I think to remember that nations founded on biblical principles can have separation of church and state and actually believe in the separation of church and state.
Christian nations that prospered under God:
1. Byzantium Empire 476-1483... over 1000 years. It became weaker as the orthodox church strayed further and further from the truth of the Bible. Its peak was under perhaps the most Christian emperor it had, Justinian (around 600AD if my memory is right).
2. British Empire from 1066-2006... fast approaching 1000 years and still extremely powerful. Once controlled the entire Commonwealth which was far bigger than the Roman Empire. Lost its empire and has gradually weakened in recent centuries as it separates from Biblical principles.
3. America 1776-2006... 230 years of greatness. The most powerful nation in the world and likely the most Christian. However, its position as a world superpower is undeniably in jeopardy as it separates itself from the Biblical principles it was founded on.
4. Holy Roman Empire... One of my weaker arguments. Was a European power on and off for about 700 years. It reached highest extent of powers under its more pious emperors (Charlemagne and Barbarossa who were flawed though).
5. South Korea... is currently booming and experiencing prosperity as it is one of the more Christian countries in the world. South Korea sends out more missionaries than any nation other than America.
6. Alberta, Canada (not a nation but still)... The most Christian province in Canada. Premier Ralph Klein was notorious for sticking to principles which while never Biblically based were Biblically attuned. The Conservative party averages around 65% of the vote in Alberta, usually in excess of 70% in rural areas. Alberta is the richest province in Canada has massive surpluses (the government gives money back to the people because it doesn't need tax money), and is so prosperous and booming that there is a labour SHORTAGE of around 30 000 in a province of only 3 000 000. I believe God is blessing the righteous and faithful there.
7. Some of you Americans may hate me for this, but despite his flaws... Castro made Cuba a much better place than it was under Baptista. Castro followed many Biblical principles rooting out centers of immorality and a lot of corruption (although he has since been corrupted).
While that is certainly one way of looking at it, I think it is debatable to attribute the successes and failings of said nations solely to Christianity. You are leaving out aspects of geography, technological advancement, natural resources, population, the degree in which other nations at the time could help or hinder them and so on. And there is a difference between a nation having a majority of Christians, and one being founded on "principles of the Bible" as it were. Certainly in the case of the East Romans and the British their nations have strong pagan traditions that were over time usurped by Christianity. Likewise certain others (the US) while with religious aspects in their founding, were far from a religious endeavour.
A holistic and studied view of any one of those you just mentioned would not have Christianity as the corner stone of their successes or failings. A nation that is successful and builds an empire and all that likely has a multitude of reasons for its success, not just "we followed the Bible."
??? The West, at the time of collapse, was strongly Christian also. Christianity is seen as one of the contributing factors of the Wests descent into what many incorrectly call the Dark Ages. And it would be worth pointing out that the West was far more sucesful in stamping out "immoral behaviour" then the East, which is well noted for being a hotbed of tenacious Eastern Cults, magic and the Oriental lifestyle.
Different types of Empires, the Greeks had been culturally influential for a terribly long time, and contributed to the Romans, Etruscans, Phoenicians etc. Their religion and language was influencing cultures, like the Romans, decades to centuries before they became prominent.
Not forgetting his successors ruled the fractured pieces for a long time till the Romans took them over.
The Parthians, and the Persians, lasted a lot longer then that, and at times were a viable opponent to both the United Roman Empire and The Eastern Roman Empire.
??? What God? The Babylonians were powerful and dead a good long while before Christianity.
Ditto.
The Egyptians were a force in their region for thousands of years - and then vitally important to both the Greeks and Romans.
And don't forget the great Chinese Empires that cycled before the west eventually came. Or the Islamic Empires. Or the Sumerian's. Or the Carthaginians who were well established while the Romans were still trying to subjugate Italy.
Nellinator
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
While that is certainly one way of looking at it, I think it is debatable to attribute the successes and failings of said nations solely to Christianity. You are leaving out aspects of geography, technological advancement, natural resources, population, the degree in which other nations at the time could help or hinder them and so on.
??? The West, at the time of collapse, was strongly Christian also. Christianity is seen as one of the contributing factors of the Wests descent into what many incorrectly call the Dark Ages. And it would be worth pointing out that the West was far more successful in stamping out "immoral behaviour" then the East, which is well noted for being a hotbed of tenacious Eastern Cults, magic and the Oriental lifestyle.
Different types of Empires, the Greeks had been culturally influential for a terribly long time, and contributed to the Romans, Etruscans, Phoenicians etc. Their religion and language was influencing cultures, like the Romans, decades to centuries before they became prominent.
Not forgetting his successors ruled the fractured pieces for a long time till the Romans took them over.
The Parthians, and the Persians, lasted a lot longer then that, and at times were a viable opponent to both the United Roman Empire and The Eastern Roman Empire.
??? What God? The Babylonians were powerful and dead a good long while before Christianity.
Ditto.
The Egyptians were a force in their region for thousands of years - and then vitally important to both the Greeks and Romans.
And don't forget the great Chinese Empires that cycled before the west eventually came. Or the Islamic Empires. Or the Sumerian's. Or the Carthaginians who were well established while the Romans were still trying to subjugate Italy.
It is nice to see another person with an interest in ancient history. Yes I know that it is debatable and I did take those things into consideration. I am not going to say that Biblical principals contribute entirely to each one, but do steadfastly believe that they were contributing factors.
1. Your argument is a good one, but I would say that the West was still under original Roman law and ideals, not entirely Christian. Also, the Catholic Church was the power in Rome and it was often far from Christian. But I guess I actually agree with you here.
2. The Greeks were influential because they were a well developed culture, not because their ideals were good. I would argue that the full practice of Greek ideals never lead to any strong kingdoms.
3. Although two of the successor states were powerful (Ptolemics and Seleucids) they only lasted until from about 332BC-100BC and that is not very long.
4. The Parthians and the Persians were two different people groups. The Persians originating in southern Iran, the Medes from northern Iran, and the Parthians coming later from the area around the Caspian Sea. The Persians fell quickly, while the Parthians and Sassanids lasted (from what I know) from about 200AD to about 900AD when the Muslim Arabs took hold of the Middle East.
5. I said Biblical principles not Christianity. The Babylonians were influenced by the Jews at certain points. In fact, the Babylonian king Nebuchanezzar actually wrote part of the Bible. Daniel was the third highest administrator in the Babylonian Empire on the day it was destroyed.
6. Same thing. God sent the prophet Jonah to Nineveh to prophecy their destruction and the entire city repented and was spared.
7. The Egyptians were rarely powerful outside of Egypt thoughout history. They generally controlled the Nile and nothing more.
8. The Chinese Empires didn't usually last long and were in reality usually very small, controlling only small regions. The Chinese never truly unified and this is why the Mongols were able to defeat them. The Sumerians were not a powerful nation, but a people living in various city-states. And they actually had knowledge of God from my understanding because Abraham was from Ur, one of the greatest Sumerian cities. The Carthagians controlled a small part of the Mediterrean from about 700-250 BC which is not all that long. They were more merchants than an empire. The Carthagian armies were mercanaries hired with their wealth to fight for them. Since you seem to love Rome Total War, I recommend you try some of the mods for the game including Rome Total Realism's lastest version and Europa Barbarian. You may see this in those games, but I'm not sure. The Islamic empires have been able to control a lot of territory and people for a long time, but I would say that their moral principles have a lot to do with it. However, no one Islamic empire has truly lasted a long time. It has broken and reformed many times. The truly outstanding Islamic empire would probably be that of the Ottoman Turks, but they too fell.
Alliance
Religion does not make or break a nation.
Alexanders Religious legacy was one of mixing gods and bringing people together for the first time. His strategy of combining dieties was a brilliant step in creating pantheism. The Romans easliy copted this when they arrived in the area.
Chrsitainity had nothing to do with the Mayan, Aztec, and Islamic empires, and both were among the most significant empires in the world. They fell just as every other nation has (or is in the process of). Its not because they didn't have Christian thought.
Islam saved intellectual thought from Christianity.
Nellinator
Originally posted by Alliance
Islam saved intellectual thought from Christianity.
I don't know how you can claim that when some the greatest scientists of all times were Christians.
Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Nellinator
I don't know how you can claim that when some the greatest scientists of all times were Christians.
LMAOOOOOOO
Albert Einstien was Jewish......
Leonardo Da Vinci was gay....
Neither were Christian
Nellinator
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
LMAOOOOOOO
Albert Einstien was Jewish......
Leonardo Da Vinci was gay....
Neither were Christian
Is this supposed to be a retort?
Einstein at least believed in God.
Da Vinci was not a great scientist, but more of a philosopher and inventor.
Isaac Newton, whom I hold to be the greatest scientist in history was devoutly Christian and wrote more on God than on science.
Louis Pasteur was a Christian.
Michael Faraday, Rutherford, Mendel, and many others were Christians. And that is well known fact.
Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by Nellinator
1. Your argument is a good one, but I would say that the West was still under original Roman law and ideals, not entirely Christian. Also, the Catholic Church was the power in Rome and it was often far from Christian. But I guess I actually agree with you here.
I guess it is the old Catholics vs. All other Christians. Of course I would say that the Holy Roman Empire was primarily Catholic, and that was one of the pro-Christian empires you mentioned. How far, in your view, does a state have to go to be considered Christian? Because I think the later Western side of the Roman Empire was pretty strong - saints, Church councils (hey, the version of the Bible we have today can be attributed to the West), the stamping out of herasy, the infilitration of Biblical doctrine into laws etc.
I still say different kinds of empire. The Greeks influenced most cultures, for a long time, and continued to shape the Romans even after they were conquered. While land controlled is often a measure of Empire, influence should be equally considered.
Yet they were still two powerful non-Christian empires, eventually consumed by another non-Christian Empire.
I know the difference between the two, and often lament the lack of attention paid to the Parthians in history. And the Sassanids were a type of Persian, ones that caused the East Romans many problems, until they were eventually broken by East Roman might - weakening them sufficiently in a way that was conducive to the Muslims over coming them. And technically the Seleucid's also qualify as a Persian power. In all reality in one form or another the Persians were about in the BC and long after the AD.
So does the old testament alone qualify as Biblical principle?
Which is a claim, though far from historically verifiable.
Well, firstly for a long time they had no reason to be powerful outside of Egypt - their were few challenging powers in those days, but when the call came the Egyptians were usually capable of a show of force - as the Nubians will attest. And why does not being powerful outside of Egypt matter? They were culturally and economically influential for a very long time, and in ratio they did have an empire, and it did last a long time.
Once again its perspective. The Chinese have a fascinating way of viewing their history, a cycle in nature, a constant rise and fall. It is one of the only nations around today that has had a constant civilisation. Also not forgetting the many scientific and philosophical matters they gave to the world.
A similarity to the Greeks, city states could be powerful political entities, and as a culture they were important.
How long does an Empire have to hang around for you to consider it worthy? The Carthaginians deserve more respect. And remembering, in antiquity a merchant power was a valid expression of empire, and they had more then enough Empiric might to cause problems for the Romans on more then one occasion (Early Rome, then a bit later.)
Nellinator
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
I know the difference between the two, and often lament the lack of attention paid to the Parthians in history. And the Sassanids were a type of Persian, ones that caused the East Romans many problems, until they were eventually broken by East Roman might - weakening them sufficiently in a way that was conducive to the Muslims over coming them. And technically the Seleucid's also qualify as a Persian power. In all reality in one form or another the Persians were about in the BC and long after the AD.
So does the old testament alone qualify as Biblical principle?
This could be an endless argument that neither of us have the full knowledge to end. I do agree that Christianity was not the end all for the power of an empire, but I do believe that it was highly influential.
I too believe that the Parthians and Sassanids are horribly underestimated. They even captured the Roman emperor Valerian. The steppes and Iran has a very rich and underexplored history indeed.
And yes it did back then because Christ had not yet been born.
Templares
-And thanks to its fellow Christians of the Fourth crusade who sacked and plundered it, the Byzantium empire become an easy prey to the Ottoman Turks. Christian charity at work.
-First off, Britain is far from being the most Bible-friendly nation in Europe.
Second, Britain became powerful because it pioneered liberal ideas that challenged existing social structures like feudalism and the Divine Right of kings to rule.
Third, Britain became weak because its colonies demanded and received independence in the 20th-century. Without raw materials, even with the high quality of its man power, coming from its colonies, it could not compete with other superpowers like America and the Soviet Union which have plenty of resources at their own backyard.
-American greatness only started after the First World war. Washington needed help from France to secure independence, the Russian fleet was needed to deter Britain and France from interfering with the Civil War, and the Brits and the Canadians BURNED down Washington DC in the War of 1812.
Second, its NOT because of Biblical principles this nation prospered. Its the will of the settlers to improve their living standards in a land full of opportunity.
Third, Italy is the most Christian country there is.
Fourth, the fact that racism lingered in America, even up today, shows you just how un-Christian-like this country is.
-Not only is the Holy Roman empire weak, but like Italy it wasnt even a unified whole for the majority of its existence. Its because of this disunity which made it weak, not because its rulers were none-PIOUS Christians.
-The South Korean boom is brought about by a World Bank 'bail-out' package back in 1997 not because its a Christian country.
-IIRC, Quebec and Ontario was more industrialized than Alberta . . . . ah what the heck, i know next to nothing about them silly Canadians
.
-And we attribute this success to Castro and Cuba's belief in a Jewish/Christian god?. I just say that this is testament to Castro and Co. skill as administrators. Its not like the Cuban law making body sat down and said, "hey lets open up a Bible and pick the laws of our land from it." More likely, the Soviet Union had a hand when Cuba was drawing up their constitution.
-Constantine also brought Roman law, customs etc. - ie. Roman principles - to the Eastern Roman empire, Byzantium. He even bought worship of the emperor as a god; sanitized under the emperor's title as "God's Thirteenth disciple".
Second, Byzantium BRIBED Attila and his nomadic Huns to turn West, which in turn forced the Goths, Franks, Vandals etc. - ie.the "barbarians" migrated and entered Roman borders or perish under the Huns. Yes, Byzantium, that Christian empire, had a hand in the destruction of the Roman empire in the West.
Third, it is said that the (none-Christian) Han Chinese empire in the East fortified the Great Wall of China, which forced the Hsiung-Nu (the Huns) and one of the ancestors of the Mongol nation, to march West instead and pillage Europe.
-And we attribute this to their lack of belief in a Jewish/Christian god?Ancient Greece did the conquering culturally. Democracy and tyranny are both stable form of governments we inherited ffrom the Greeks.
-And we attribute this to their lack of belief in a Jewish/Christian god?. I attribute this to lack of political unity after Alexander's death.
-God? You mean Mithras, Ahura mazda, Tammuz etc. I've heard that Medes and Persians are very tolerant of other religions but for their kings to actually believe the Jewish and/or Christian god as ascribed by the Bible, that itself is not verified to be true.
-Nebuchadnezzar believing the Jewish and/or Christian god as ascribed by the Bible, is not verified to be true.
-The Assyrians are very tolerant of other religions but for their kings to actually believe the Jewish and/or Christian god as ascribed by the Bible(in Jonah), that itself is not verified to be true.
- And again are we suppose to attribute this as to some kind of act of God from the God in the Bible? The coming of Christianity sounded the death knell for the rich and pagan culture of the Egyptians.
- And again are we suppose to attribute this as to some kind of act of God from the God in the Bible? The Mongols were swallowed up culturally by the people they conquered.
- And again are we suppose to attribute this as to some kind of act of God from the Christian and Jewish god? Napoleon was outmanouvered and out strategized by his enemies, plain and simple.
-In theory, communist states should be atheistic, in practice its not. Russian orthodox church still flourished under Communism.
The Soviet premiers are no less ruthless and autocratic as the Russian Christian tsars it replaced.
-In theory, communist states should be atheistic, in practice its not. Confucianism and buddhism still flourished under Communism.
The Chinese premiers are no less ruthless and autocratic as the Chinese rulers it replaced.
-Yeah because he is inept not because its an act of God.
In short, empires and civilization RISE and FALL regardless whether they believe or not in Biblical principles. In fact, Biblical principles such as loyalty, compassion, love, brotherhood etc. are not Jewish/Christian inventions.
Other religions and civilizations, much earlier than Judaism and Christianity follow and expound the same concepts.
Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by Nellinator
This could be an endless argument that neither of us have the full knowledge to end. I do agree that Christianity was not the end all for the power of an empire, but I do believe that it was highly influential.
I am reminded of a bit of Polybius, where he is talking about the strengths of the early Roman state (say Republic and earlier) and how he mentions religion as being useful and necessary in keeping the masses controlled, directed and happy. Whether Polybius was a religious man or not is questionable, but it was a wise observation - in the past religion has often been a useful state tool. A tool of the state, not the state being a tool of the religion.
I would agree Christianity was a useful force in state and Empire building - as a tool. Just like paganism or Islam or Hindu is useful. Religion, in the past, was an easy way of exerting control over a populous, especially when one weaves state and the state leaders into it. I don't see Christianity as any different here. However I can see no historic reason to believe there was actually God clearing the way for them and keeping their powers strong while withdrawing his support when they strayed. Really I see any number of factors other then this.
Oh true, true. And stuffed his corpse, apparently, and put it on display when he died. I love the recounting of Julian the Apostates Persian campaigns as detailed by Ammianus Marcellinus. Wonderful stuff.
Same with the Parthians, especially when they defeated Crassus, easily the least deserving of being in the Triumvirate with Caesar and Pompey.
So why did the Jews do so terribly? I can understand the times they supposedly strayed from the path - but the history of the Jews has, well, been a history of the oppressed. Basically every religion has done better then theirs (except the Jewish religion always survives.)
Templares
Originally posted by Nellinator
I don't know how you can claim that when some the greatest scientists of all times were Christians.
Without the Arabs to preserve Greek and Roman thought during the Middle and Dark ages, the Roman Catholic church would have burned down the works of them Greek and Roman pagans and send every free thinker to the burning stake.
Arabs back then are way more tolerant than they are now. Granted Islamic civilization STAGNATED in the 17th century, Western civilization OWES a lot of its Mid Eastern counterpart.
Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by Templares
Without the Arabs to preserve Greek and Roman thought during the Middle and Dark ages, the Roman Catholic church would have burned down the works of them Greek and Roman pagans and send every free thinker to the burning stake.
Arabs back then are way more tolerant than they are now. Granted Islamic civilization STAGNATED in the 17th century, Western civilization OWES a lot of its Mid Eastern counterpart.
True. So few people give credit to the Islamic civilisations, simply focusing on the Turks. So few realise the contribution they made to medicine, thought, architecture and so on. It was quite a influx of progress the west got after the Crusades due to all the ideas they brought back from the East. Yet the East gets so little respect.
Nellinator
Originally posted by Templares
-And thanks to its fellow Christians of the Fourth crusade who sacked and plundered it, the Byzantium empire become an easy prey to the Ottoman Turks. Christian charity at work.
-First off, Britain is far from being the most Bible-friendly nation in Europe.
Second, Britain became powerful because it pioneered liberal ideas that challenged existing social structures like feudalism and the Divine Right of kings to rule.
Third, Britain became weak because its colonies demanded and received independence in the 20th-century. Without raw materials, even with the high quality of its man power, coming from its colonies, it could not compete with other superpowers like America and the Soviet Union which have plenty of resources at their own backyard.
-American greatness only started after the First World war. Washington needed help from France to secure independence, the Russian fleet was needed to deter Britain and France from interfering with the Civil War, and the Brits and the Canadians BURNED down Washington DC in the War of 1812.
Second, its NOT because of Biblical principles this nation prospered. Its the will of the settlers to improve their living standards in a land full of opportunity.
Third, Italy is the most Christian country there is.
Fourth, the fact that racism lingered in America, even up today, shows you just how un-Christian-like this country is.
-Not only is the Holy Roman empire weak, but like Italy it wasnt even a unified whole for the majority of its existence. Its because of this disunity which made it weak, not because its rulers were none-PIOUS Christians.
-The South Korean boom is brought about by a World Bank 'bail-out' package back in 1997 not because its a Christian country.
-IIRC, Quebec and Ontario was more industrialized than Alberta . . . . ah what the heck, i know next to nothing about them silly Canadians
.
-And we attribute this success to Castro and Cuba's belief in a Jewish/Christian god?. I just say that this is testament to Castro and Co. skill as administrators. Its not like the Cuban law making body sat down and said, "hey lets open up a Bible and pick the laws of our land from it." More likely, the Soviet Union had a hand when Cuba was drawing up their constitution.
-Constantine also brought Roman law, customs etc. - ie. Roman principles - to the Eastern Roman empire, Byzantium. He even bought worship of the emperor as a god; sanitized under the emperor's title as "God's Thirteenth disciple".
Second, Byzantium BRIBED Attila and his nomadic Huns to turn West, which in turn forced the Goths, Franks, Vandals etc. - ie.the "barbarians" migrated and entered Roman borders or perish under the Huns. Yes, Byzantium, that Christian empire, had a hand in the destruction of the Roman empire in the West.
Third, it is said that the (none-Christian) Han Chinese empire in the East fortified the Great Wall of China, which forced the Hsiung-Nu (the Huns) and one of the ancestors of the Mongol nation, to march West instead and pillage Europe.
-And we attribute this to their lack of belief in a Jewish/Christian god?Ancient Greece did the conquering culturally. Democracy and tyranny are both stable form of governments we inherited ffrom the Greeks.
-And we attribute this to their lack of belief in a Jewish/Christian god?. I attribute this to lack of political unity after Alexander's death.
-God? You mean Mithras, Ahura mazda, Tammuz etc. I've heard that Medes and Persians are very tolerant of other religions but for their kings to actually believe the Jewish and/or Christian god as ascribed by the Bible, that itself is not verified to be true.
-Nebuchadnezzar believing the Jewish and/or Christian god as ascribed by the Bible, is not verified to be true.
-The Assyrians are very tolerant of other religions but for their kings to actually believe the Jewish and/or Christian god as ascribed by the Bible(in Jonah), that itself is not verified to be true.
- And again are we suppose to attribute this as to some kind of act of God from the God in the Bible? The coming of Christianity sounded the death knell for the rich and pagan culture of the Egyptians.
- And again are we suppose to attribute this as to some kind of act of God from the God in the Bible? The Mongols were swallowed up culturally by the people they conquered.
- And again are we suppose to attribute this as to some kind of act of God from the Christian and Jewish god? Napoleon was outmanouvered and out strategized by his enemies, plain and simple.
-In theory, communist states should be atheistic, in practice its not. Russian orthodox church still flourished under Communism.
The Soviet premiers are no less ruthless and autocratic as the Russian Christian tsars it replaced.
-In theory, communist states should be atheistic, in practice its not. Confucianism and buddhism still flourished under Communism.
The Chinese premiers are no less ruthless and autocratic as the Chinese rulers it replaced.
-Yeah because he is inept not because its an act of God.
In short, empires and civilization RISE and FALL regardless whether they believe or not in Biblical principles. In fact, Biblical principles such as loyalty, compassion, love, brotherhood etc. are not Jewish/Christian inventions.
Other religions and civilizations, much earlier than Judaism and Christianity follow and expound the same concepts.
We see things differently. However, I did not mean present my opinion as fact. I do believe that God has a hand in the prosperity of a nation.
And I feel liking poking some holes in your knowledge just for fun.
Italy is not the most Christian country in Europe. It has less Christians attending church than Muslims attending mosques. Just because it is steeped in Catholic tradition and history does not mean it is Christian. In fact, I consider Italy one of the most Godless nations of Europe. Britain actually is one of the most Bible friendly nations in Europe. Russia being number one right now (which I think plays a part in its current economic growth). Germany is also becoming more Bible friendly currently.
And yes you obviously don't know a lot about Canada. Few Americans realize that Alberta contains more oil than all of Saudi Arabia and is also produces more uranium than any province in Canada (which produces more than 2x the amount of uranium of any country). Ontario receives equalization payments and is deeply in debt. Alberta is debt free and has an annual surplus of around 9 billion this year after federal tax for only 3 million people. America would have been better off invading Alberta because its much closer and better.
Napoleon was not outmanuevered, he was overwhelmed by numbers in the end. He never really had a chance.
And once again, I can easily argue that Judaism is the oldest religion in the world. There is as much evidence of this as there is of others coming first.
Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by Nellinator
Napoleon was not outmanuevered, he was overwhelmed by numbers in the end. He never really had a chance.
One could say the numbers were always against him, and that the defeats commonly seen as putting an end to his campaigns as being due to the tactics of his opponents. If he had won at Waterloo...
Oldest continued religion perhaps, there were religions around long before the Jews penned the Old Testament (such as the tribal religions in Africa or even certain Mesopotamian ones.) And to be fair being the oldest hasn't exactly done them many favors.
Templares
Originally posted by Nellinator
We see things differently. However, I did not mean present my opinion as fact. I do believe that God has a hand in the prosperity of a nation.
And I feel liking poking some holes in your knowledge just for fun.
Italy is not the most Christian country in Europe. It has less Christians attending church than Muslims attending mosques. Just because it is steeped in Catholic tradition and history does not mean it is Christian. In fact, I consider Italy one of the most Godless nations of Europe. Britain actually is one of the most Bible friendly nations in Europe. Russia being number one right now (which I think plays a part in its current economic growth). Germany is also becoming more Bible friendly currently.
And yes you obviously don't know a lot about Canada. Few Americans realize that Alberta contains more oil than all of Saudi Arabia and is also produces more uranium than any province in Canada (which produces more than 2x the amount of uranium of any country). Ontario receives equalization payments and is deeply in debt. Alberta is debt free and has an annual surplus of around 9 billion this year after federal tax for only 3 million people. America would have been better off invading Alberta because its much closer and better.
Napoleon was not outmanuevered, he was overwhelmed by numbers in the end. He never really had a chance.
And once again, I can easily argue that Judaism is the oldest religion in the world. There is as much evidence of this as there is of others coming first.
Older than the Sumerian and Egyptian religions? Nah. What are these evidence that Judaism is OLDEST religion there is?
Nellinator
Archaeological and cultural. The book of Job is dated by many to before 3600BC because of its style of language and cultural references. Of course, this is difficult to see in the English translation, but it is not so hard in the original Hebrew. Abraham undoubtedly existed and since the Hebrews and Jews are well known for their immaculate genealogies it is safe to assume that he knew the people from which he descended and also that he inherited their religion and faith.
Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by Nellinator
Archaeological and cultural. The book of Job is dated by many to before 3600BC because of its style of language and cultural references. Of course, this is difficult to see in the English translation, but it is not so hard in the original Hebrew. Abraham undoubtedly existed and since the Hebrews and Jews are well known for their immaculate genealogies it is safe to assume that he knew the people from which he descended and also that he inherited their religion and faith.
In terms of an actual, datable artifact (that would be a scroll or something of that nature) or simply in the events it portrays? It is one of the problems with trying to date a text without an original copy - the text can deal with events and the like that took place hundreds of even thousands of years ago. And it can create mythos or events or whatever to support itself. The actual book of Job I was under the impression was physically written closer to Babylonian times (or, alternativly, close to the King David.)
Anyway, the Sumerian's were about, with their culture from 5000 BC or even earlier. African tribes for even longer.
Templares
Originally posted by Nellinator
Archaeological and cultural. The book of Job is dated by many to before 3600BC because of its style of language and cultural references. Of course, this is difficult to see in the English translation, but it is not so hard in the original Hebrew. Abraham undoubtedly existed and since the Hebrews and Jews are well known for their immaculate genealogies it is safe to assume that he knew the people from which he descended and also that he inherited their religion and faith.
The book of Job is dated post-Exile because of similarities to Ezekiel at least thats what's according to Jewish scholars. And i still fail to see how would Job or any other book in the Bible pre-date Enlil and the Sumerian pantheons.
Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by Templares
The book of Job is dated post-Exile because of similarities to Ezekiel at least thats what's according to Jewish scholars. And i still fail to see how would Job or any other book in the Bible pre-date Enlil and the Sumerian pantheons.
True, true. As it is I am pretty sure scholars view Judaism as being founded (officially) by Moses as an organised religion following the exile, which would put it at 1400 BC TO 1300 BC (since that time frame is the one the events of the exodous could have occured in.) Even in the race to be the first organised religion I think they come second - isn't Hinduism seen as the first? Something like beginning at 1500 BC with links going much farther back?
It seems to come down to faith. Some will think that some manner of Judaeo-Christian faith must have always existed (thanks to the Bible's claims), though historically their are older religions in general (granted, most dead now) and at least one slightly older organised religion.
Alliance
It would seem historically unlikyly that a monotheistic religion developed so quickly.
The nature spirits >> polytheism makes lots of sense, but to then narrow it down to ONE god, takes guts. But less guts that it takes to go from nature spirits to one god. Its likely almost impossible that Judaism came into existance while entirely preceeding all polytheisms.
Of course, since i consider spirit worship a ancient religion, its practically impossible that Judiasm came before that.
Nellinator
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
True, true. As it is I am pretty sure scholars view Judaism as being founded (officially) by Moses as an organised religion following the exile, which would put it at 1400 BC TO 1300 BC (since that time frame is the one the events of the exodous could have occured in.) Even in the race to be the first organised religion I think they come second - isn't Hinduism seen as the first? Something like beginning at 1500 BC with links going much farther back?
It seems to come down to faith. Some will think that some manner of Judaeo-Christian faith must have always existed (thanks to the Bible's claims), though historically their are older religions in general (granted, most dead now) and at least one slightly older organised religion.
At least you are open minded and see the futility of arguing over origins. I cannot prove that Judaism came first but I do believe it did. And you are right, Judaism was organized under Moses around 1400BC as the events of Exodus have been found archaeological to have occurred in the reign of Ramses II (I think it was Ramses II at least).
Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by Alliance
It would seem historically unlikyly that a monotheistic religion developed so quickly.
The nature spirits >> polytheism makes lots of sense, but to then narrow it down to ONE god, takes guts. But less guts that it takes to go from nature spirits to one god. Its likely almost impossible that Judaism came into existence while entirely preceeding all polytheisms.
Generally I agree. The cultural situations that proved conducive to monotheistic religion were not really available early on. However their are lobbies these days who debate whether the hidden God in Egypt, and the idea of many gods being the aspectual manifestations of God above them (up to the hidden one) being indications of a form of proto-montheism (that, and at least one Egyptian creation myth deals with Ptah using the divine word to bring things into existence - which is significant.)
I agree.
crazy
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
http://www.near-death.com/ritch.html
Dr. George Ritchie's near-death experience
"Suddenly I was aware that it was brighter, a lot brighter, than it had been. I stared in astonishment as the brightness increased, coming from nowhere, seeming to shine everywhere at once. All the light bulbs in the ward couldn't give off that much light. All the bulbs in the world couldn't! It was impossibly bright. It was like a million welders' lamps all blazing at once.
"I'm glad I don't have physical eyes at this moment," I thought. "This light would destroy the retina in a tenth of a second."
"No, I corrected myself, not the light. He. He would be too bright to look at."
For now I saw that it was not light but a man who had entered the room, or rather, a man made out of light, though this seemed no more possible to my mind than the incredible intensity of the brightness that made up his form.
The instant I perceived him, a command formed itself in my mind.
"Stand up!"
The words came from inside me, yet they had an authority my mere thoughts had never had. I got to my feet and as I did came the stupendous certainty:
"You are in the presence of the Son of God."
If this was the Son of God, then his name was Jesus. This person was power itself, older than time and yet more modern than anyone I had ever met.
Above all, with that same mysterious inner certainty, I knew that this man loved me. Far more even than power, what emanated from this presence was unconditional love. An astonishing love. A love beyond my wildest imagining. This love knew every unlovable thing about me - the quarrels with my stepmother, my explosive temper, the sex thoughts I could never control, every mean, selfish thought and action since the day I was born - and accepted me just the same. "
One word...
Wow!
Are you blind, seriously? You ignore peoples responses to you and just keep posting, I hate to be an ass on this forum, but you seem like a retard, and we are even bigger retards for arguing with you.
JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by crazy
Are you blind, seriously? You ignore peoples responses to you and just keep posting, I hate to be an ass on this forum, but you seem like a retard, and we are even bigger retards for arguing with you.
You insult me and you follow Muhammed and Allah.
I have never called anyone on this forum a retard (I happen to follow Jesus), is there a correlation?
crazy
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
You insult me and you follow Muhammed and Allah.
I have never called anyone on this forum a retard (I happen to follow Jesus), is there a correlation?
I am not Muslim, though I do admire the religion, I will not lie about that, I really admired Christianity as well, but ever since I have seen you on these boards, it makes me think twice.
And I love your line of reasoning, cause you THINK I follow Islam, that means all Islamic people are assholes and all Christians are nice and when you think of them, you think of nice wholesome people right?
Well since you love to correlate, lets say I am an agnostic, I may have low patience but at least I try to be open minded and search for the true tuth.
You are Christian and you post lies like the chicktracts when you know they are based on BS and people on this board all know this and have/can prove it easily. You also never research your statements about anything that is not realated to Christianity. See the correlation?
But yea you really are a BSER, and when you can not answer someone, you just ignore them(i.e Lord Urizen and Alliance). Don't forget though I called myself a bigger retard for arguing with you.
JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Knowing Jesus Christ and having a RELATIONSHIP with God the Father THROUGH Jesus Christ IS NOT a religion.
Semanitcs?
Splitting hairs?
Jesus never used the word religion. The word never once left His mouth. If you can find where Jesus Christ said the word religion (literally, and verbally out of His mouth) then I will leave this site forever.
detective
The word religion is in the Bible (I know this) but Jesus never used it personally. What we saved folk have is fellowship with God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, not religion.
1 Corinthians 1:9
God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord .
1 John 1:3
that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ .
Shakyamunison
^ Are you talking to yourself?
lord xyz
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Jesus never used the word religion. The word never once left His mouth. If you can find where Jesus Christ said the word religion (literally, and verbally out of His mouth) then I will leave this site forever.
detective How the **** would you know, is he your friend or something? Did you live at the same time as him and had a chat with him? Or are you just brown-nosing again?
JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by lord xyz
How the **** would you know, is he your friend or something? Did you live at the same time as him and had a chat with him? Or are you just brown-nosing again?
I am probably brownnosing.
Regret
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I am probably brownnosing.
You know, sometimes you are surprising JIA. Very nice response.
Regret
I found it amusing
Lord Urizen
Originally posted by crazy
I am not Muslim, though I do admire the religion, I will not lie about that, I really admired Christianity as well, but ever since I have seen you on these boards, it makes me think twice.
And I love your line of reasoning, cause you THINK I follow Islam, that means all Islamic people are assholes and all Christians are nice and when you think of them, you think of nice wholesome people right?
Well since you love to correlate, lets say I am an agnostic, I may have low patience but at least I try to be open minded and search for the true tuth.
You are Christian and you post lies like the chicktracts when you know they are based on BS and people on this board all know this and have/can prove it easily. You also never research your statements about anything that is not realated to Christianity. See the correlation?
But yea you really are a BSER, and when you can not answer someone, you just ignore them(i.e Lord Urizen and Alliance). Don't forget though I called myself a bigger retard for arguing with you.
Yeah. He's the most closed minded debator on all these forums, and he stops answering you when he can't attack your points ne longer.
I sort stopped debating with him recently, as of now I just make fun of him
JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by Regret
You know, sometimes you are surprising JIA. Very nice response.
Thank you.
Alliance
especially because it wasn't really a compliment.
Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by Alliance
especially because it wasn't really a compliment.
He takes them where he can get them. As long as he doesn't look to deeply at the words... it seems like it will make him happy. Ironic me thinks.
Alliance
Nah..I'd say typical.
JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by fini
Hey who wants pizza???
I do but it has to be Round Table Pizza only. Anything less would be uncivilized.
Alliance
uncivilized like yourself?
JesusIsAlive
http://www.carm.org/evidence/mithra.htm
The lie concerning Mithra.
Lord Urizen
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
http://www.carm.org/evidence/mithra.htm
The lie concerning Mithra.
What about the Lie concerning God ?
He copied Ahura Mazda
Shakyamunison
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
http://www.carm.org/evidence/mithra.htm
The lie concerning Mithra.
You cannot trust bias sources. Next time find a none bias site.
JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
http://www.carm.org/evidence/mithra.htm
The lie concerning Mithra.
http://www.crystalinks.com/mithraism.html
Lord Urizen
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
http://www.crystalinks.com/mithraism.html
I don't beleive in Mithra. I don't beleive in your God either.
Alliance
JIA! I didn't know you were part of the Mithratic cult.
Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
http://www.carm.org/evidence/mithra.htm
The lie concerning Mithra.
How exactly does that site reveal a lie? A very basic history of the Mithric cult, finished off by noting their is strong support that Mithra influenced the creation of Christianity - which no matter how much Evangelical zeal you have can be denied as a valid debate amongst the historical community.
Rogue Jedi
i have never heard of the mithra cult. are they associated with the wu tang clan?
Alliance
No. The Mithratic cult was a Hellenist religion whith quite the emphasis on masculinity.
Most notably (well, to me anyway)...the Mitratic cult was absorbed into the Sol Invictus Mitrhas cult, which was the most popular cult among the Roman legions, especially in the latter days of the Empire.
Rogue Jedi
interesting......i guess you learn something new every day.
Alliance
If I'm not mistaken, they also had several incursions into the Roman Emperorship.... (but that might have been another cult, i tend to get them confused) ...though they were not very successful. It was mostly the crazed desires of a Mitrhatic priestess, and she kept installing her (12 year old) children as Emperors...(well...at least twice).
Rogue Jedi
man, i gotta read up on this. thanx for the info.
Rogue Jedi
where did you learn about this?
Alliance
I'm part History major. And I do a lot of work on Roman history.
Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
All philosophical arguments aside, we know that Jesus Christ was a real historical figure, that He fulfilled specific prophecies written and preserved hundreds of years before His life, that He died on a cross, and that He was reported to have risen from the dead and interacted with men and women who were willing to suffer horribly and die for this testimony.
As petulant as it sounds: "So says the Bible and you."
JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
As petulant as it sounds: "So says the Bible and you."
That is all that you can muster?
Alliance
The best you've mustered on this forum is a fart.
Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
That is all that you can muster?
Well, considered the depth I have gone into my reasonings behind such a statement previously I felt I could go light on details that time.
See, its petulant and out of character.
JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by Nellinator
You know that you make remarks testing people's patience and temper sometimes. But unlike some you use very polite language so that if someone were to lash out at you they would be the accused even though you provoke it. Do you see what I mean? I just think it is funny, that's all. It is especially humorous when it works.
Nellinator is referring to Shakyamunison. Some people call this being a button pusher. But I am not saying this.
Shakyamunison
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Nellinator is referring to Shakyamunison. Some people call this being a button pusher. But I am not saying this.
Then what are you saying?
Alliance
Nellinator hasnt' posted in theis thread in over a month, not since the 22nd of August. Your post is irrelevant.
Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Alliance
Nellinator hasnt' posted in theis thread in over a month, not since the 22nd of August. Your post is irrelevant.
It is just his hate for me that is driving him.
JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by Nellinator
You know that you make remarks testing people's patience and temper sometimes. But unlike some you use very polite language so that if someone were to lash out at you they would be the accused even though you provoke it....
So Shak plays mind games?
Are you saying that Shak. says whatever he wants to people then when someone says "one", little thing back to explain their position, he starts accusing him/her of hate?
Or he hides behind Ushgarak? Is that what happens?
Lord Urizen
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
So Shak plays mind games?
Are you saying that Shak. says whatever he wants to people then when someone says "one", little thing back to explain their position, he starts accusing him/her of hate?
Or he hides behind Ushgarak? Is that what happens?
Atleast Shaky dont try to brainwash me...
Alliance
Well...wait until he gets you in the bedroom.
Shakyamunison
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
So Shak plays mind games?
Are you saying that Shak. says whatever he wants to people then when someone says "one", little thing back to explain their position, he starts accusing him/her of hate?
Or he hides behind Ushgarak? Is that what happens?
Why don't you quote me, and talk to me? You come across as a coward.
JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by Nellinator
You know that you make remarks testing people's patience and temper sometimes. But unlike some you use very polite language so that if someone were to lash out at you they would be the accused even though you provoke it....
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
So Shak plays mind games?
Are you saying that Shak. says whatever he wants to people then when someone says "one", little thing back to explain their position, he starts accusing him/her of hate?
Or that Shak. hides behind Ushgarak when called on the carpet? Is that what happens?
Man, here is how I feel about this whole issue: weep sadangel
Alliance
Yes, we know people dont like you.
Shakyamunison
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Man, here is how I feel about this whole issue: weep sadangel
You don't realize this but the way you treat people on this forum is insulting. Please try to consider the feelings of other people before you post.
JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
http://wri.leaderu.com/pages.html (Testimonies of conversion from various religions to Christianity )
Do All Paths Lead to the Same Destination?
Keith E. Johnson
Is it possible that Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, etc. represent differing, yet valid, paths to the same destination? This article examines arguments for and against the claim that all paths lead to the same destination.
http://wri.leaderu.com/articles/paths.html
Apostasy and Freedom of Conscience
The near-execution of an Afghan Muslim who converted to Christianity provoked an international outcry because it violated a basic human right - freedom of conscience. The tragedy is: Muslim nations restrict or abuse basic human freedoms, but this should not blind westerners to their failings. Freedom is also abused in the west - albeit somewhat differently - resulting in moral laxity and perversion. To find a spiritual freedom
Read on...
Why Islam shuts down freedom
http://answering-islam.org/Clarke/apostasy.html
Read this post Flamboyant.
Imperial_Samura
Hmmmm. Hmmmmmmm. So, the fact that Western Liberalism - which is on the side of personal freedom - advocates things that are not supported by certain religious groups somehow translates into an abuse of freedom? They would be really on the side of freedom if... what? They started oppresing certain groups?
Western Liberal Freedom Advocate: We believe homosexauls should have the right to marry and be safe and free.
Religious Avocate: By advocating that freedom you are actually abusing freedom because you are applying freedom to something our religion doesn't want free!
WLFA: Well, you are free to say that.
RA: Yes, because we are right. Now start oppresing those things we see as immoral or perverse.
WLFA: Bugger off.
Alliance
That was a fabulous conversation.
Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by Alliance
That was a fabulous conversation.
I was aiming for stupid, since the whole concept is stupid "Muslim nations take away freedoms because they oppress people and stop them believing in whatever they want. Western nations also abuse freedom in a different way - it leads to immorality and perversion."
And as veterans of such debates we all know that when a hardline Christian says that they will be alluding to the big four - divorce, abortion, homosexuality and sometimes religious diversity.
So, ergo, by giving people the right to live their lives the west is actually abusing freedom. I mean WTF?
But I'll accept fabulous.
Alliance
In some ways, you are correct. The Western abuse of rights is not as bad as many Islamic nations, but there are still glaring issues.
Alliance
I'm the only way to god.
Imperial_Samura
And I am the only way to Alliance. So send your money to me and I'll see that your prayers are passed on down the chain.
JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
And I am the only way to Alliance. So send your money to me and I'll see that your prayers are passed on down the chain.
No real comment Samura?
Lord Urizen
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
No real comment Samura?
I find it funny how you harass him for a response, yet you ignore so many other debator's valid arguments....ya bastard
JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I find it funny how you harass him for a response, yet you ignore so many other debator's valid arguments....ya bastard
Well for one very good reason that I seek Imperial's responses is because he does not resort to contumely towards me as you do ninety-nine and nine tenths percentage of the time. Second, Imperial has shown consistently to be an intrepid, knowledgeable, person who has not once (that can recall) resorted to using contumely, profanity, or the like in conversing with me. If I could I would award Imperial forum member of the quarter. He has comported himself in an exemplary manner since my advent to this site. I know that I have perhaps provoked him (but never intentionally) to curse me out, but he has shown time and time again to be above using that as a recourse when the going got tough. Unlike you U, Imperial knows how to deal with his emotions like a sensible human being. Case in point, did you just call me out my name at the top of this post? Oh, yes, you did (figures).
Lord Urizen
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Well for one very good reason that I seek Imperial's responses is because he does not resort to contumely towards me as you do ninety-nine and nine tenths percentage of the time. Second, Imperial has shown consistently to be an intrepid, knowledgeable, person who has not once (that can recall) resorted to using contumely, profanity, or the like in conversing with me. If I could I would award Imperial forum member of the quarter. He has comported himself in an exemplary manner since my advent to this site. I know that I have perhaps provoked him (but never intentionally) to curse me out, but he has shown time and time again to be above using that as a recourse when the going got tough. Unlike you U, Imperial knows how to deal with his emotions like a sensible human being. Case in point, did you just call me out my name at the top of this post? Oh, yes, you did (figures).
Okay Buddy...listen up:
I would not diss you so much, if you would actually take the time to READ my arguments, and attack them intelligently INSTEAD of ignoring them, or continously saying " If you don't beleive in Christ, you will burn in Hell"
Other than ADarksidejedi, you happen to be the most ignorant and close minded person on these forums. Yes, I said so....so what ? What are you going to do? Continue your ignorance ? Yes, JIA, prove me right....
If you would ANSWER people's responses with actual logic, instead of ignoring ANY valid point someone makes, people wouldn't disrespect you so much.
You disrespect ME and EVERYONE ELSE as WELL when you ignore anything we have to say that contradicts your point. NEVER have I seen you even infer logic into your point....fine...if ignorance is your weapon, then so be it, but do not accuse me of being disrespecful, when you yourself will make accusations and judgements on other people, but then get stupid when they simply defend themselves and their positions.
You even admitted that you are not here to debate...then why are you here ? No one is listening to you, and you should realize that by now....
In fact....any doubt I had in my mind, as to why I am NO LONGER Christian, is CLARIFIED by your presense here on KMC...I used to wondor if I should go back to being religious...now, because of you, I remember WHY I turned away from it, and am ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that I will not return to a state of ignorance again...
Thanks
JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Okay Buddy...listen up:
I would not diss you so much, if you would actually take the time to READ my arguments, and attack them intelligently INSTEAD of ignoring them, or continously saying " If you don't beleive in Christ, you will burn in Hell"
Other than ADarksidejedi, you happen to be the most ignorant and close minded person on these forums. Yes, I said so....so what ? What are you going to do? Continue your ignorance ? Yes, JIA, prove me right....
If you would ANSWER people's responses with actual logic, instead of ignoring ANY valid point someone makes, people wouldn't disrespect you so much.
You disrespect ME and EVERYONE ELSE as WELL when you ignore anything we have to say that contradicts your point. NEVER have I seen you even infer logic into your point....fine...if ignorance is your weapon, then so be it, but do not accuse me of being disrespecful, when you yourself will make accusations and judgements on other people, but then get stupid when they simply defend themselves and their positions.
You even admitted that you are not here to debate...then why are you here ? No one is listening to you, and you should realize that by now....
In fact....any doubt I had in my mind, as to why I am NO LONGER Christian, is CLARIFIED by your presense here on KMC...I used to wondor if I should go back to being religious...now, because of you, I remember WHY I turned away from it, and am ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that I will not return to a state of ignorance again...
Thanks
I have already explained to you why I ignore your posts.
Also, guilt trips are not effective against me (i.e. they don't work). I feel no regret or guilt about your decision to turn your back on Jesus Christ. Although I do feel compassion for you and I will continue to intercede for your salvation as well the salvation of everyone on and off this forum.
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