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Hmm, what do you think?

Considering TPM Sidious would be in the prime of his saber abilities, not to mention his ever growing knowledge of the force, I'd say he takes this virtually every time.

"Considering TPM Sidious would be in the prime of his saber abilities.." Proof?

I'd say DE Sidious was in the prime of his saber abilites,judging from what Ive read in the Dark Empire Sourcebook.

I'm talking about in universe Spartan. As stated by somebody, TPM Sidious was fast enough with a saber to carve out an etching of Maul without killing him, so I'd say he's at his peak in saber abilities. DE Sidious was just young and agile, nothing more. Not to mention he's been a spirit for all those years. TPM Sidious still practiced with a saber, until he became chancellor.

"As stated by somebody"WTF?Just because it's 'stated by somebody' doesn't make it canon,unless GL or LF says otherwise.

And where did Sidious carve an etching into Maul?Even if he did,that doesn't make any sense because,by your logic,an artist that is perfect at carving, is a skilled swordsman aswell?Which is,obviouly,very flawed logic on your part.

And DE Sidious wasn't "Young and Impressionable'.When he and Luke dueled over Pinnacle Base,they were described,by the DE Sourcebook, as "Moving faster than the eye could see.",and were also described as tearing up Sids throne room in the duel aswell.

Originally posted by Spartan ll
"As stated by somebody"WTF?Just because it's 'stated by somebody' doesn't make it canon,unless GL or LF says otherwise.

Uh it was stated by somebody quoting the TPM novelization or pre TPM, it's not just somebody's word. Don't be daft.

And where did Sidious carve an etching into Maul?Even if he did,that doesn't make any sense because,by your logic,an artist that is perfect at carving, is a skilled swordsman aswell?Which is,obviouly,very flawed logic on your part.

Either in TPM or pre TPM books, I will get you the source if you want. Your analogy doesn't work because Sidious bested Maul in saber combat. And this was BEFORE he put his saber down for 13 years. The same Sidious that took out 3 Jedi Masters before losing to Windu. My point was to demonstrate his speed and precision with a lightsaber, which I did.

And DE Sidious wasn't "Young and Impressionable'.When he and Luke dueled over Pinnacle Base,they were described,by the DE Sourcebook, as "Moving faster than the eye could see.",and were also described as tearing up Sids throne room in the duel aswell.

Once again, when is the last time Sidious picked up a saber? Oh wait, he was a spirit roaming the galaxy after he fell into the shaft.

Spartan, I was the one who provided DS with the information regarding Palpatine's lightsaber abilities as of TPM. He outlined Maul's figure with a lightsaber - while Maul was standing there. Maul later noted that if he had moved an inch or so, he would have died.

That takes skill and precision.

Anyways, ESB Vader dies. Horribly.

Originally posted by Escape81
ESB Vader dies. Horribly.

Originally posted by Escape81
ESB Vader dies. Horribly.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Uh it was stated by somebody quoting the TPM novelization or pre TPM, it's not just somebody's word. Don't be daft.
Then why did you not mention it was from the novel?


Why did you not mention Sidious bested Maul in a saber duel?Even so,Maul is weaker than Vader,they fought in some comic and Maul lost to Vader.And I was pointing out that your assessment of Sidious being a skilled swordsmen just because he was able to carv some markings into Maul,was flawed.


Actually,he took control of one of his Hands9Forgot the guys name) an used the body of the Hand to transport him to Byss and then he took on a clone body there and bided his time until Thrawn was defeated.

But I do agree,that Sidious wins.

Maul outmatched Vader in swordsmanship. Vader won because Maul was overconfident. Vader stabbed himself through the stomach to kill Maul. You could say Vader killed himself, but he got medical treatment shortly after thus he survived....

We don't know enough about TPM Sidious. His lightsaber skills and force powers have shown us nothing beyond Vader, and too much is speculation. Hopefully the Plageius novel, due in '08, will clear this up. I give unofficial permission for someone to dig this thread from the grave then.

OT Vader is 80% of OT Sidious and TPM Sidious is rpobably as strong as OT Sidious, not as strong with the Force but betetr with a saber so I don't see any way that Vader would win.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
We don't know enough about TPM Sidious. His lightsaber skills and force powers have shown us nothing beyond Vader, and too much is speculation. Hopefully the Plageius novel, due in '08, will clear this up. I give unofficial permission for someone to dig this thread from the grave then.

Actually, we know that he was still using a saber back then, training Maul and defeating Maul. We know he barely stalemated Yoda with 13 years out of practice, so its more than logical to say TPM Sidious was at his peak in saber abilities, meaning Vader stands no chance.

I stand by what I said.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
I stand by what I said.


I'm glad youre bringing logic into this one and not your own opinion. I'll reiterate the fact that TPM Sidious was at his peak, as it is the last time he uses his saber. It is arguable that DE Sidious COULD be at his peak but it's unrealistic considering of the fact that he was a spirit, and just had a younger and more agile body.

You're basing it off of speculation, I'm not going to call a winner until I know more about TPM Sidious.

What do you mean I'm basing it off of speculation. Ask escape to provide the quotes for you the ability of Sidious as of TPM, who defeated Maul in combat several times, before putting the saber away for 13 years as a chancellor.. Hardly speculation.

Yes, but until we know more I can say that Vader just beats the hell out of him with the force, though. We don't know, so I'm not going to assume. You, by all means, can, though, and it won't bother me.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Yes, but until we know more I can say that Vader just beats the hell out of him with the force, though. We don't know, so I'm not going to assume. You, by all means, can, though, and it won't bother me.

What are we assuming here? What are you NOT understanding? Sidious was actively training Maul before and during TPM ok? Sidious was NOT doing anything while a Chancellor. What is so hard to understand?

We've seen no demonstration of Sidious' power, and assuming that it was as good as his ROTS counterpart's is nothing but speculation.

Speculation? Or logical deduction.. Lets see. TPM Sidious was actively training Maul, actively using the force, actively using a saber. As a chancellor he had little to no chance to do any of that.

And Vader wasn't?

What do you mean and Vader wasn't? There's nothing to assume Vader equaled even TPM Sidious in the force, and he certainly didn't equal him in saber combat

...is your opinion.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
...is your opinion.

My opinion? Uhm no. Vader couldn't beat ROTJ Luke, so what in the world would make you think he could contend with TPM Sidious at his peak in saber duels? My opinion is based on logical deduction.

My point: We've seen way more impressive things from Vader and I'm not going to assume that TPM Sidious is better than him... "Just because." I'll wait to decide until after I know more about Sidious as of TPM.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
My point: We've seen way more impressive things from Vader and I'm not going to assume that TPM Sidious is better than him... "Just because." I'll wait to decide until after I know more about Sidious as of TPM.

Quoting Escape81 here. "TPM Sidious was so fast with a saber that he instantly made a sketch around Maul incredibly fast, if Maul moved a single inch he would have died". I don't know if that was the EXACT quote but something like it. That alone shows Sidious' mastery with a lightsaber and force speed, which are already good enough to take down ESB Vader. So it's not "Inconclusive" jim, it's quite obvious.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Quoting Escape81 here. "TPM Sidious was so fast with a saber that he instantly made a sketch around Maul incredibly fast, if Maul moved a single inch he would have died". I don't know if that was the EXACT quote but something like it. That alone shows Sidious' mastery with a lightsaber and force speed, which are already good enough to take down ESB Vader. So it's not "Inconclusive" jim, it's quite obvious.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Yes, but until we know more I can say that Vader just beats the hell out of him with the force, though. We don't know, so I'm not going to assume. You, by all means, can, though, and it won't bother me.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
My opinion? Uhm no. Vader couldn't beat ROTJ Luke, so what in the world would make you think he could contend with TPM Sidious at his peak in saber duels? My opinion is based on logical deduction.

rotj beat vader because vader underestimated luke and pushed his limits, gl there stated that in power vader is 80% of sidious so in a force battle sidious owns hands down, why? cuz it takes a small voltage of lightning to shock vaders life support system and pow vaders gone,

i need to know what lightsaber form sidious uses then i can try to see if vader can match him, can some1 please tell me?

Palpatine doesn't have a singular lightsaber form. He uses elements of all of them, to try to adapt to every combat situation.

Regardless, the TPM-era is when Palpatine is still in practice with his lightsaber, and probably equal in Force power to his Revenge of the Sith counterpart.

He annihilates Vader.

hmm true, but vader has the advantage in terms of strength not speed, if sidious attempts to fight vader strength to strength then vader has the upperhand but i doubt sidious will do that, he would prob chop vader up with other forms, but which form counters the shien/djem so form anyway? makashi is useless against shien if strength to strength, proven in ROTS dooku vs anakin

Sideous hits Vader with Force lightning, shorts out his life support system and wins.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
Sideous hits Vader with Force lightning, shorts out his life support system and wins.

im talking about lightsaber duel, for force fight if vader doesnt do anything quickly to defend he is finished