Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

what is the rule of thumb here? how much should one charge you for this? is it per song or per CD?

Can't you just do it yourself? or get a friend to do it?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
what is the rule of thumb here? how much should one charge you for this? is it per song or per CD?

$10 per CD, plus shipping fees...I'll do it for you.

Download the songs by yourself.

i only ask because i had my friends sis do it for me. i gave her 50 songs. she burned them onto 3 cd's. well, i figured 5 bucks a CD, then another 5 as a "tip". 20 bucks for 3 cd's. well, it kind of pissed her off. did i not pay her enough?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
i only ask because i had my friends sis do it for me. i gave her 50 songs. she burned them onto 3 cd's. well, i figured 5 bucks a CD, then another 5 as a "tip". 20 bucks for 3 cd's. well, it kind of pissed her off. did i not pay her enough?

Seriously she was being childish. 3 blank CD's cost literally cents and it takes less than 1 hour out of her day. You paid her more than enough.

Well, if it's your friends sister, maybe she was doing it out of goodwill, Blank CD's cost only cents. So I think $20 would cut it.


Edit: Ken beat me to the cost... I was proud; I used American currency and everything. disgust

I've made countless CD's for friends and even a few for their siblings, I would dream of charging for making them, if there offered me money after, I wouldn't take it, but I can't see me getting angry; so maybe she didn't get angry because it was a goodwill gesture.

Buy the CD/CDs you want, you thieving scum. Where's the logic here?

You're paying for music, might as well get it legally.

-AC

Could she have been offended that you offered her money?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Buy the CD/CDs you want, you thieving scum. Where's the logic here?

You're paying for music, might as well get it legally.

-AC

Bit harsh with the theaving scum line, don't you think? You're right though, if you're going to steal, at least steal without paying.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
what is the rule of thumb here? how much should one charge you for this? is it per song or per CD?

Well since I pay 27.00$ a month to download my music, I usually have people ask for no less that 12 songs, and I usually charge 12 dollars for 12-15 songs, plus 1.50 for s/h.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Nah. If you steal music off the internet, I consider that to be a scummy activity, and it's thieving, so 2 + 2 etc.

I'm not saying: "If you're gonna steal, steal without paying." per se, I'm saying if you're willing to pay, pay for legal material so the artists get their cash and you get an official, great sounding CD with artwork and everything else.

-AC
thats crap. they are making their money anyways. what if you want a compilation? like 1 cd with 2 or 3 songs from different artists? are you supposed to buy 6 different cd's with only like 2 or 3 songs you like on each one?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
thats crap. they are making their money anyways. what if you want a compilation? like 1 cd with 2 or 3 songs from different artists? are you supposed to buy 6 different cd's with only like 2 or 3 songs you like on each one?

Don't give me the "They're making the money anyways." argument, please. Seen it many times before, ended it the same amount of times. It's not the point. The Earth was clean once, it wasn't a big deal when just one person dropped litter, but when billions started doing it over the course of years, it became a problem. A slightly exaggerated point, I realise, but a point nonetheless. I trust said point isn't beyond your comprehension.

Regardless of whether they are rich or starving, you are stealing from them, and that's wrong. Your friend burns albums for you, for others, right? They burn albums for others, who burn albums for others. It's a snowball effect, and many ignorant people don't look into it enough to realise.

With regards to your other questions; iTunes, a dollar per song. Though I seriously believe that with your attitude, you're not just downloading selected songs.

-AC

so the environmet has something to do with downloading songs off the net? wow. thats the worst analogy i have ever seen.

Considering that the biggest portion Downloading group is generally kids 12-21, who don't have the money to pay for the CD's anyway, it's not that much of a problem

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
Considering that the biggest portion Downloading group is generally kids 12-21, who don't have the money to pay for the CD's anyway, it's not that much of a problem

You should probably leave that "logic" in the dumpster you dragged it from.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
so the environmet has something to do with downloading songs off the net? wow. thats the worst analogy i have ever seen.

I gave you the credit of assuming you'd be able to get what I meant, I gave you too much credit.

Nowhere in my post did I suggest the two are linked, I was comparing how one lack of caring because "It's not a problem.", eventually did lead to a huge problem. Like the "They earn money anyway." argument, you see? I also said that it's an extreme example, but an example nonetheless.

If you can't grasp techniques that aren't as obvious as a sledgehammer blow to the face, then admit such, don't imply there's something wrong with the analogy.

-AC

I have -3.25 pounds to my name and I thought that my bank account couldn't have an over draught..... So I won't be buying music for a while!

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You should probably leave that "logic" in the dumpster you dragged it from.



I gave you the credit of assuming you'd be able to get what I meant, I gave you too much credit.

Nowhere in my post did I suggest the two are linked, I was comparing how one lack of caring because "It's not a problem.", eventually did lead to a huge problem. Like the "They earn money anyway." argument, you see? I also said that it's an extreme example, but an example nonetheless.

If you can't grasp techniques that aren't as obvious as a sledgehammer blow to the face, then admit such, don't imply there's something wrong with the analogy.

-AC
you can analyze all you want, but i bet that if you started a poll here, most members would agree with me on this one.

Agree that downloading music is right?

I'm pretty sure most people don't think it's right but I still think most people here will have done it or do it on a regular basis.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
you can analyze all you want, but i bet that if you started a poll here, most members would agree with me on this one.

Haha, so what? What does that prove? It proves that lots of internet users believe downloading is right. So what? Majority doesn't mean correct.

Feel free to bring on the sense any time soon.

-AC

thats my point. its the only option for some people, on a limited income.

So people would rather pay for music, than to get it free?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
thats my point. its the only option for some people, on a limited income.

So is shoplifting, do you condone that? Would you condone that if it was a store you had to run and live on the profits of? Do you believe a judge should accept: "I didn't have the cash, so I stole." as a credible reason?

I'm still waiting on that sense.

-AC

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
what is the rule of thumb here? how much should one charge you for this? is it per song or per CD? They should charge you nothing. Charging you for songs (regardless if they paid for them or not) and getting some type of revenue is against the law.

It's not quite as bad as shoplifting.... unless you ran into the shop, took the product, made a copy of it and then left with the copy.

Originally posted by bigbran
So people would rather pay for music, than to get it free?

People are too lazy to pay for music, even mp3s, so they steal it.

-AC

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
thats my point. its the only option for some people, on a limited income.

People have been buying CD/Cassettes/8tracks/etc. For years on a limited income.

I don't support winmx and all of those websites that you can just download everything for free.

If you're that broke, listen to the radio or use iTunes that costs a dollar per song. Atleast then you'll be paying the 15 bucks and getting the music you want.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
People are too lazy to pay for music, even mp3s, so they steal it.

-AC Isn't the programs, like Limewire, Kazza, etc, there for you to get? You Pay enough, for your computer, internet, programs, but your not allowed to get free music?

The only reason I'm saying it's better than shoplifting is because you don't deprive the retail business of the products. Unless you want to be really, very technical and say that as more people are downloading it; so more people aren't buying the CD's therefor the retail stores don't order as many in.

I'm not saying it's any less morally wrong but financially it's better for the retail stores then walking in a shop and taking their products.

Originally posted by bigbran
Isn't the programs, like Limewire, Kazza, etc, there for you to get? You Pay enough, for your computer, internet, programs, but your not allowed to get free music?

No, because it's stealing. It's not free music, it's illegal music that you are TAKING without paying. There's a difference.

Free samples at a store, those are free. Pirated CDs and DVDs are not "free".

-AC

If your making CD's, and selling them, of course that's bad! But when you just want a collection of music, w/o paying 20$ for a CD, and not even getting all the songs you want in one, I don't see the problem in downloading it.

Originally posted by bigbran
If your making CD's, and selling them, of course that's bad! But when you just want a collection of music, w/o paying 20$ for a CD, and not even getting all the songs you want in one, I don't see the problem in downloading it.

You don't see the problem in stealing material that others have worked hard to make, illegally?

Idiot then, aren't you? You don't see anything wrong with stealing?

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
That's not the point I'm making. People believe downloading is somehow massively different, it's not. That logic of poor income is pathetic, because people who shoplift as a result of poor income are still thieves and still deserve punishment.

-AC

I'm awear of that but the point I was making was to back up a post I made earlier about shoplifting being worse than downloading music illegally. You were concentrating more on ethics and my shoplifting post was not just about the ethics.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You don't see the problem in stealing material that others have worked hard to make, illegally?

Idiot then, aren't you? You don't see anything wrong with stealing?

-AC So people aren't allowed to download songs?
And heres a question, do you, or have you ever downloaded any songs?

If you people would just start your own bands then you could listen to all the music you want for free, and you could burn cd's all you want without worrying if it's stealing or not. Gosh!

Originally posted by bigbran
So people aren't allowed to download songs?
And heres a question, do you, or have you ever downloaded any songs?

Illegal downloading is stealing, and people aren't allowed to do it, but they do it anyway. Stealing is lame.

Second question: The only things I've ever downloaded were single songs, and those WERE free, straight from the artist's sites. The only thing I download, or I should say used to download, were music videos, which you can't buy really, at least you couldn't then. I no longer do that because I all bands either have them on their sites, MySpaces or YouTube.

I have paid for every single piece of music I own currently, and that's a lot of music.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
So is shoplifting, do you condone that? Would you condone that if it was a store you had to run and live on the profits of? Do you believe a judge should accept: "I didn't have the cash, so I stole." as a credible reason?

I'm still waiting on that sense.

-AC
are you like a music artist or something? cuz you are taking this way too seriously. i only asked what the etiquitte was for something and you had to come in and start a whole debate on the moral standpoint of it.

again, a bad analogy. shoplifting and burning cd's is like comparing apples and oranges.

You can compare apples and oranges...

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
are you like a music artist or something? cuz you are taking this way too seriously. i only asked what the etiquitte was for something and you had to come in and start a whole debate on the moral standpoint of it.

again, a bad analogy. shoplifting and burning cd's is like comparing apples and oranges. not really. Unless You pay for the music when downloading, it's basically the same exact thing. You're stealing music.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
again, a bad analogy. shoplifting and burning cd's is like comparing apples and oranges.

Apples and oranges can be compared

Both have seeds
Both are sweet
Both are grown on trees
OH! And they're both fruits

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
are you like a music artist or something? cuz you are taking this way too seriously. i only asked what the etiquitte was for something and you had to come in and start a whole debate on the moral standpoint of it.

again, a bad analogy. shoplifting and burning cd's is like comparing apples and oranges.

Shocking that someone who loves music would hate the musicians making it getting stolen from, huh? I know, it's just this little thing called respect, and not being a thieving scum. A notion lost on the world today, but yeah, that'll be it.

It's not a bad analogy, it's because you don't get analogies and appear to be a bit not-there in the old crain' chamber. You gave the horseshit excuse of low income, so I asked if you'd excuse shoplifting for low income. Would you?

-AC

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
what about mangos and peaches?

I'm pretty sure you can compare any fruit.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Illegal downloading is stealing, and people aren't allowed to do it, but they do it anyway. Stealing is lame.

Second question: The only things I've ever downloaded were single songs, and those WERE free, straight from the artist's sites. The only thing I download, or I should say used to download, were music videos, which you can't buy really, at least you couldn't then. I no longer do that because I all bands either have them on their sites, MySpaces or YouTube.

I have paid for every single piece of music I own currently, and that's a lot of music.

-AC I go to Youtube too. I do have Shareaza though, but I don't download songs, or listen to music that much.
The point is, it's their, and your not going to stop people from doing it.

How do we know this girl wasn't downloading the songs legally off of Napster? It would make this situation entirely different. You couldn't even consider RJ a thief if that was a case. AC's whole argument was formed off of an assumption.

Becuase downloading music legally is moronic, the whole point of buying music is to have a nice case and shit.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Shocking that someone who loves music would hate the musicians making it getting stolen from, huh? I know, it's just this little thing called respect, and not being a thieving scum. A notion lost on the world today, but yeah, that'll be it.

It's not a bad analogy, it's because you don't get analogies and appear to be a bit not-there in the old crain' chamber. You gave the horseshit excuse of low income, so I asked if you'd excuse shoplifting for low income. Would you?

-AC
so everyone in the world, including myself, who downloads music for free is thieving scum? is that what you are saying? cuz if it is, you just insulted probably about 10 to 20 million people.
i do get analogies, its just when someone makes a bad one, i recognize it right away.
now you are insulting my intelligence. you seem to be the type of person that insults others in order to make him or herself feel good.
respect? you think that these artists have respect for you? you think they give a rats ass about you or your opinions? wake up, man.

Yeah but that's more money down the drain and they're never as good.

Originally posted by bigbran
I go to Youtube too. I do have Shareaza though, but I don't download songs, or listen to music that much.
The point is, it's their, and your not going to stop people from doing it. Just a minute, how is Youtube better than downloading a song, but not selling it?

When I said "Nice case and shit", I meant the CD with it's art on, the booklet and CD cover art, not just the jeweled case.

again, what if you like only two or three songs on the cd? are you supposed to pay full price for a 12 song cd, but only listen to a couple of songs? thats crazy.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
so everyone in the world, including myself, who downloads music for free is thieving scum? is that what you are saying? cuz if it is, you just insulted probably about 10 to 20 million people.

1) I don't morally agree with any downloading of any sort, but...as long as the music is PAID for in the end, I have no major problem. I know people who download and then buy, I dislike it, but the music is getting paid for, so it's alright. If it's not getting paid for, then yes, scum.

2) Do I strike you as the kind of guy who cares if he insults people for calling them scum due to illegal downloading?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
i do get analogies, its just when someone makes a bad one, i recognize it right away.
now you are insulting my intelligence. you seem to be the type of person that insults others in order to make him or herself feel good.
respect? you think that these artists have respect for you? you think they give a rats ass about you or your opinions? wake up, man.

I'm not insulting your intelligence, you're insulting your own by simply not getting it. If you dislike the analogy, fine, that doesn't make it a bad analogy, it works.

I don't care if the artists personally respect me or not, there are many bands I am a fan of, some of which I don't particularly like the members, but I love the music. It's called respect, so I pay them for it.

So I'll ask another time: Do you condone shoplifting due to low income?

-AC

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
again, what if you like only two or three songs on the cd? are you supposed to pay full price for a 12 song cd, but only listen to a couple of songs? thats crazy. I said that before.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
again, what if you like only two or three songs on the cd? are you supposed to pay full price for a 12 song cd, but only listen to a couple of songs? thats crazy.

Yeah i totally agree with that. I mean like I love this one song, and I wanted to the single, but they only had his CD. it was 25 dollars!

I have money, but I'm not spending 25 dollars for one song. That's ridiculous

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
again, what if you like only two or three songs on the cd? are you supposed to pay full price for a 12 song cd, but only listen to a couple of songs? thats crazy.

When did it become crazy to pay for something you wish to own? I missed the meeting, do you still have the agenda? Run this idea by me.

Oh wait; "Because I only want 3! I'm paying for 12!". So use iTunes to buy songs you want.

There's no excuse for not paying.

Originally posted by CherryPop
Yeah i totally agree with that. I mean like I love this one song, and I wanted to the single, but they only had his CD. it was 25 dollars!

I have money, but I'm not spending 25 dollars for one song. That's ridiculous

iTunes. 99 Cents per song.

-AC

the bottom line here is that burning cd''s off the internet is not that big of a deal. these artists make their money even though this goes on every day.
thats why i had those 3 cd's burned, because there was 50 songs from like 20 different artists. was i supposed to buy 20 to 30 different cd's? even a millionare would think that is crazy.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
When did it become crazy to pay for something you wish to own? I missed the meeting, do you still have the agenda? Run this idea by me.

Oh wait; "Because I only want 3! I'm paying for 12!". So use iTunes to buy songs you want.

There's no excuse for not paying.



iTunes. 99 Cents per song.

-AC So you would rather pay money for a song, instead of downloading it from Limewire?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
the bottom line here is that burning cd''s off the internet is not that big of a deal. these artists make their money even though this goes on every day.
thats why i had those 3 cd's burned, because there was 50 songs from like 20 different artists. was i supposed to buy 20 to 30 different cd's? even a millionare would think that is crazy.

It is a big deal, regardless of whether you believe it to be or not. The fact that you find stealing to be ok is ludicrous and ignorant. You don't think of the after-effects do you?

Your friend burns three full CDs for you, and for others. You may or may not copy that CD for others, who would maybe copy it for others. Not to mention all the same things happening for people your friend has copied it for.

If 10 kids each have a single album and share it amongst themselves, that's around 90 CDs that don't get purchased. This is happening by the millions, billions maybe.

I'll ask again: Shoplifting due to low income, right or wrong?

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

iTunes. 99 Cents per song.

-AC

Really? Only 99cents?

I may have to look into that.

I hate paying every month for music when some months I don't even download anything

Meh, I'll buy it if/when I go to Japan.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It is a big deal, regardless of whether you believe it to be or not. The fact that you find stealing to be ok is ludicrous and ignorant. You don't think of the after-effects do you?

Your friend burns three full CDs for you, and for others. You may or may not copy that CD for others, who would maybe copy it for others. Not to mention all the same things happening for people your friend has copied it for.

If 10 kids each have a single album and share it amongst themselves, that's around 90 CDs that don't get purchased. This is happening by the millions, billions maybe.

I'll ask again: Shoplifting due to low income, right or wrong?

-AC
do us all a favor and drop the shoplifting scenario. no one here buys it.

now, in my defense, most if not all of the music was old school rap that no one buys anymore. its not like it is a top 10 seller.

i noticed something here., you seem to be chasing me all over the place, quoting me, shooting down any idea i have and trashing my opinion. reason?

BTW: i am starting a poll now.

Ok, what happens if you don't have a credit card, or don't have acess to one?

Originally posted by bigbran
Ok, what happens if you don't have a credit card, or don't have acess to one?

You ask your parents. Pay them everytime you want to download the music

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
do us all a favor and drop the shoplifting scenario. no one here buys it.

Do me a favour and answer it. I'm not asking anyone to "buy" it, I'm asking you a question, you ignorant fool.

Do you agree that shoplifting is worth condoning if the shoplifter is of low income? Yes or no? In the time you've spent posting you could have answered.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
now, in my defense, most if not all of the music was old school rap that no one buys anymore. its not like it is a top 10 seller.

So what? What is the logic there? You're stealing music, Rogue. You are stealing it, taking it without paying.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
i noticed something here., you seem to be chasing me all over the place, quoting me, shooting down any idea i have and trashing my opinion. reason?

Because you said something I find to be incredibly illogical and/or stupid, and you won't answer me, so I have to repeatedly ask.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
BTW: i am starting a poll now.

For what? Start a poll on a Britney forum entitled: "Is Britney an amazing vocalist?", and most will say yes.

-AC

Originally posted by CherryPop
You ask your parents. Pay them everytime you want to download the music What is the meaning, of, Don't have acess to one?

Originally posted by bigbran
Ok, what happens if you don't have a credit card, or don't have acess to one?

Then don't buy it. What makes you think you have the right to own something without paying?

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Then don't buy it. What makes you think you have the right to own something without paying?

-AC Ok then, i just won't buy it, and I'll never listen to it ever, because it doesn't get played, or it isn't on youtube.

Originally posted by bigbran
What is the meaning, of, Don't have acess to one?


If YOU and YOUR PARENTS have no access to a credit card or a debit card then you're sol.


Free dowloading is ILLEGAL.

Originally posted by bigbran
Ok then, i just won't buy it, and I'll never listen to it ever, because it doesn't get played, or it isn't on youtube.

Precisely.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Precisely.

-AC So you wouldn't download a song, if you couldn't get it anywhere?
So you would just sit there, and know that you will never hear your favorite song again?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri


Do me a favour and answer it. I'm not asking anyone to "buy" it, I'm asking you a question, you ignorant fool.

Do you agree that shoplifting is worth condoning if the shoplifter is of low income? Yes or no? In the time you've spent posting you could have answered.



So what? What is the logic there? You're stealing music, Rogue. You are stealing it, taking it without paying.



Because you said something I find to be incredibly illogical and/or stupid, and you won't answer me, so I have to repeatedly ask.



For what? Start a poll on a Britney forum entitled: "Is Britney an amazing vocalist?", and most will say yes.

-AC
well, here we go again with the insults. you know, you seem like an intelligent and well spoken person. if you could just keep the insults to yourself, i'd enjoy talking to you.
but, unfortunately, you choose to lower yourself to sub par standards and call me a fool or whatever else you can think of. so, if everyone who burns music is a fool or theiving scum, there are alot of us in the world.
i dont answer the shoplifting question because it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
well, here we go again with the insults. you know, you seem like an intelligent and well spoken person. if you could just keep the insults to yourself, i'd enjoy talking to you.
but, unfortunately, you choose to lower yourself to sub par standards and call me a fool or whatever else you can think of. so, if everyone who burns music is a fool or theiving scum, there are alot of us in the world.
i dont answer the shoplifting question because it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

It does have things to do with the topic. You justified downloading by saying people may not have the money for CDs due to low income, correct?

So you condone stealing when someone has low income? I can only assume the same applies to shoplifting. Does it? It's a simple yes or no. You have typed thousands of words in the time you could have responded.

Answer the question, please. I respect that either way, you know I've trapped your pathetic argument, but answer it. Be a man.

-AC

AC, how do you feel about downloading music from an artist that is deceased? Would you still be against it even if you knew the money spent would end up in some one's undeserved pocket?

Nice answer.

What about if the artist really didn't care about the money before they died and just wanted their music heard?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It does have things to do with the topic. You justified downloading by saying people may not have the money for CDs due to low income, correct?

So you condone stealing when someone has low income? I can only assume the same applies to shoplifting. Does it? It's a simple yes or no. You have typed thousands of words in the time you could have responded.

Answer the question, please. I respect that either way, you know I've trapped your pathetic argument, but answer it. Be a man.

-AC
be a man? come on, are you really asking me to be a man? come on. i never questioned your manhood. and if you feel the need to question mine, i really feel that you have sunk to a new low.
this is your pathetic argument, not mine. you started the drama, not me.

Originally posted by CherryPop
I know that that question was directed at AC, but I had to ask.

Why the hell would that matter???

Now you're not only stealing, but you're stealing from the deceased!

I'm just interested to see what people's views are in different scenarios.

When has downloaded music, ever affected the amount of records sold?
They still make their millions, while people with harder jobs get minimum wage.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
be a man? come on, are you really asking me to be a man? come on. i never questioned your manhood. and if you feel the need to question mine, i really feel that you have sunk to a new low.
this is your pathetic argument, not mine. you started the drama, not me.

I'm asking you civilly to answer my question, please. I've done so before, I'll do so again.

Answer my post, it won't take long. In all the time you've spent dodging it, you could have answered it and been done with it. You're only proving my point.

"You justified downloading by saying people may not have the money for CDs due to low income, correct?

So you condone stealing when someone has low income? I can only assume the same applies to shoplifting. Does it? It's a simple yes or no. You have typed thousands of words in the time you could have responded."

There. Please answer that.

-AC

Originally posted by bigbran
When has downloaded music, ever affected the amount of records sold?
They still make their millions, while people with harder jobs get minimum wage.

It's not a matter of affecting record sales, it's a matter of not stealing art from people. It does affect record sales, even if that isn't noticeable to the untrained eye.

-AC

Originally posted by bigbran
When has downloaded music, ever affected the amount of records sold?
They still make their millions, while people with harder jobs get minimum wage.

They have, there has been a huge decline in records sold over the years.

You know how many people would love having a million dollars?
While greedy musicians, just want more and more money, and when they go bankrupt, they blame everyone else.

Originally posted by bigbran
You know how many people would love having a million dollars?
While greedy musicians, just want more and more money, and when they go bankrupt, they blame everyone else.

That's factually untrue. Do you know how little musicians make on their CDs? That's what they put the most work in on, and ironically, they make the least from.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
That's factually untrue. Do you know how little musicians make on their CDs? That's what they put the most work in on, and ironically, they make the least from.

-AC Yes 100's of thousands is not that much at all.

Originally posted by bigbran
Yes 100's of thousands is not that much at all.

Here's a little something showing the in and out of what things cost for say, an average band, and how much they earn back from their CDs.

Advance: $250,000.
Manager's Cut: $37,500.
Legal fees: $10,000.
Recording Budget: $150,000.
Producer's advance: $50,000.
Studio fee: $ 52,500
Drum Amp, Mic and Phase "Doctors": $ 3,000
Recording tape: $ 8,000
Equipment rental: $ 5,000
Cartage and Transportation: $ 5,000
Lodgings while in studio: $ 10,000
Catering: $ 3,000
Mastering: $ 10,000
Tape copies, reference CDs, shipping tapes, misc. expenses: $ 2,000
Video budget: $ 30,000
Cameras: $ 8,000
Crew: $ 5,000
Processing and transfers: $ 3,000
Off-line: $ 2,000
On-line editing: $ 3,000
Catering: $ 1,000
Stage and construction: $ 3,000
Copies, couriers, transportation: $ 2,000
Director's fee: $ 3,000
Album Artwork: $ 5,000
Promotional photo shoot and duplication: $ 2,000
Band fund: $ 15,000
New fancy professional drum kit: $ 5,000
New fancy professional guitars : $ 3,000
New fancy professional guitar amp rigs : $ 4,000
New fancy potato-shaped bass guitar: $ 1,000
New fancy rack of lights bass amp: $ 1,000
Rehearsal space rental: $ 500
Big blowout party for their friends: $ 500
Tour expense : $ 50,875
Bus: $ 25,000
Crew : $ 7,500
Food and per diems: $ 7,875
Fuel: $ 3,000
Consumable supplies: $ 3,500
Wardrobe: $ 1,000
Promotion: $ 3,000
Tour gross income: $ 50,000
Agent's cut: $ 7,500
Manager's cut: $ 7,500
Merchandising advance: $ 20,000
Manager's cut: $ 3,000
Lawyer's fee: $ 1,000
Publishing advance: $ 20,000
Manager's cut: $ 3,000
Lawyer's fee: $ 1,000
Record sales: 250,000 @ $12 =
$3,000,000
Gross retail revenue Royalty: :
$ 351,000
Less advance: $ 250,000
Producer's points: :
$ 40,000
Promotional budget: $ 25,000
Recoupable buyout from previous label: $ 50,000

Net royalty: $ -14,000

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Record company income:

Record wholesale price: $6.50 x 250,000 =
$1,625,000 gross income
Artist Royalties: $ 351,000
Deficit from royalties: $ 14,000
Manufacturing, packaging and distribution: @ $2.20 per record: $ 550,000
Gross profit: $ 7l0,000

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Balance Sheet: This is how much each player got paid at the end of the game.


Record company: $ 710,000
Producer: $ 90,000
Manager: $ 51,000
Studio: $ 52,500
Previous label: $ 50,000
Agent: $ 7,500
Lawyer: $ 12,000
Band member net income each: $ 4,031.25

To quote Steve Albini: "The band is now 1/4 of the way through its contract, has made the music industry more than 3 million dollars richer, but is in the hole $14,000 on royalties. The band members have each earned about 1/3 as much as they would working at a 7-11, but they got to ride in a tour bus for a month. The next album will be about the same, except that the record company will insist they spend more time and money on it. Since the previous one never "recouped," the band will have no leverage, and will oblige. The next tour will be about the same, except the merchandising advance will have already been paid, and the band, strangely enough, won't have earned any royalties from their T-shirts yet. Maybe the T-shirt guys have figured out how to count money like record company guys. Some of your friends are probably already this ****ed.".

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I'm asking you civilly to answer my question, please. I've done so before, I'll do so again.

Answer my post, it won't take long. In all the time you've spent dodging it, you could have answered it and been done with it. You're only proving my point.

"You justified downloading by saying people may not have the money for CDs due to low income, correct?

So you condone stealing when someone has low income? I can only assume the same applies to shoplifting. Does it? It's a simple yes or no. You have typed thousands of words in the time you could have responded."

There. Please answer that.

-AC
ok...i DO NOT consider downloading music to be a crime. happy? noit everyone think as you do, just as not everyone thinks as i do.
i consider shoplifting a crime. thats what you wanted to hear, right?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
ok...i DO NOT consider downloading music to be a crime. happy? noit everyone think as you do, just as not everyone thinks as i do.
i consider shoplifting a crime. thats what you wanted to hear, right?

Downloading music is factually a crime. People have been arrested and convicted for it.

So...that about puts you up slack alley.

-AC

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
i DO NOT consider downloading music to be a crime.

Isn't that like saying 'I don't consider oxygen breathable'...

It is a crime, it is against the law. You can't argue that.

His next post should be quite funny.

-AC

Yeah, I can't see a comeback to this one. Unless it's something truly derogatory.

so do you guys consider marijuana to be illegal? i know that it IS against the law, but i am asking if you think it SHOULD be against the law? thats what i was saying. i do not think that downloading music should be illegal.
this is why i hate when someone steps in and causes drama. they twist your words around however they want to.

*Sigh*
Is this going to get into dictionry definitions again?
I think thats when an argumnt is officialy dead.
When you start arguing definitions.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
so do you guys consider marijuana to be illegal? i know that it IS against the law, but i am asking if you think it SHOULD be against the law? thats what i was saying. i do not think that downloading music should be illegal.
this is why i hate when someone steps in and causes drama. they twist your words around however they want to.

You're being stupid. Yes, it's factually illegal. Should it be? No.

That's irrelevent, it IS illegal, and smoking it IS a crime.

-AC

But consider doesn't mean that... ermm

And... I consider marijuana to be illegal, as it is.

(late post again; damn thee AC & Tpt!)

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You're being stupid. Yes, it's factually illegal. Should it be? No.

That's irrelevent, it IS illegal, and smoking it IS a crime.

-AC
read my post again. i acknowledged that it was illegal. i asked if, in your opinion, it should be illegal.
now, lets say that i do not condone marijuana. i hate it. i abhor it. does that give me the right to bash you and call you stupid if you think that it shouldnt really be illegal?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
read my post again. i acknowledged that it was illegal. i asked if, in your opinion, it should be illegal.
now, lets say that i do not condone marijuana. i hate it. i abhor it. does that give me the right to bash you and call you stupid if you think that it shouldnt really be illegal?

This is all irrelevent, isn't it? Not to mention dumb. If it's illegal, it's a crime quite literally.

If you don't think downloading music should be illegal, fine, but it is. That makes it a crime. It's a crime, undeniably.

You don't choose what's a crime and what isn't.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
This is all irrelevent, isn't it? Not to mention dumb. If it's illegal, it's a crime quite literally.

If you don't think downloading music should be illegal, fine, but it is. That makes it a crime. It's a crime, undeniably.

You don't choose what's a crime and what isn't.

-AC

exactly. thats why guys like you and i are not in the position to do so. can you imagine what the world would be like if we were in charge?

it is a crime to download music. fine. we all know that. but is it a crime in YOUR OPINION?
thats a rhetorical question, i already know your answer. thats the whole point of this thread, peoples OPINIONS. not facts, not common law, not whether artists are suffering from this. just your OPINION.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
it is a crime to download music. fine. we all know that. but is it a crime in YOUR OPINION?
thats a rhetorical question, i already know your answer. thats the whole point of this thread, peoples OPINIONS. not facts, not common law, not whether artists are suffering from this. just your OPINION.

No, it's a crime by law, Rogue. People have been arrested and convicted for it. People cannot have opinions on what is and isn't a crime, only if it SHOULD be illegal (a crime to commit) or not.

E.g: Illegal downloading is a crime, because it is factually illegal. You don't think it should be, but fact says it is. Law says it is.

"Online Piracy and Electronic Theft

The Internet offers music lovers virtually limitless possibilities. Digital technology brings music to a wider public, affords niche artists access to their audiences, makes our vast musical heritage widely available, and distributes old, new and unusual music at affordable prices. Unfortunately, the Internet also gives music pirates a new weapon.

Within the Internet culture of unlicensed use, theft of intellectual property is rampant. The music business and its artists are the biggest victims, and ultimately consumers suffer also. Unauthorized Internet music archive sites (using multiple formats, such as .wav files, or MP3 files) provide illegal sound recordings online to anyone with a personal computer. Music can be downloaded and played indefinitely, without authorization of or compensation to the artists. Other music pirates use the Internet to peddle illegal CDs.

Because of the nature of the theft, the damage is difficult to calculate but not hard to envision. Millions of dollars are at stake. Many individuals see nothing wrong with downloading an occasional song or even an entire CD off the Internet, despite the fact it is illegal under recently enacted federal legislation.".

Source: http://www.riaa.com

Come back soon.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
No, it's a crime by law, Rogue. People have been arrested and convicted for it. People cannot have opinions on what is and isn't a crime, only if it SHOULD be illegal (a crime to commit) or not.

E.g: Illegal downloading is a crime, because it is factually illegal. You don't think it should be, but fact says it is. Law says it is.

-AC
we most certainly CAN voice our opinions on this....FREEDOM OF SPEECH. thats what this country is all about, freedom. i can voice my opinion on this if i want to, as you can also do.

It's like you can shoot someone; then say that you just don't consider it a crime to kill someone. You'll still be convicted and sent away.

No, Rogue. You can voice your opinion, but you cannot decide what is and what isn't illegal. Being illegal means it's a crime, fact. See my edited post.

Or this:

"Online Piracy and Electronic Theft

The Internet offers music lovers virtually limitless possibilities. Digital technology brings music to a wider public, affords niche artists access to their audiences, makes our vast musical heritage widely available, and distributes old, new and unusual music at affordable prices. Unfortunately, the Internet also gives music pirates a new weapon.

Within the Internet culture of unlicensed use, theft of intellectual property is rampant. The music business and its artists are the biggest victims, and ultimately consumers suffer also. Unauthorized Internet music archive sites (using multiple formats, such as .wav files, or MP3 files) provide illegal sound recordings online to anyone with a personal computer. Music can be downloaded and played indefinitely, without authorization of or compensation to the artists. Other music pirates use the Internet to peddle illegal CDs.

Because of the nature of the theft, the damage is difficult to calculate but not hard to envision. Millions of dollars are at stake. Many individuals see nothing wrong with downloading an occasional song or even an entire CD off the Internet, despite the fact it is illegal under recently enacted federal legislation.".

It's illegal under federal legislation. It's a crime. You have a grand total of 0% say in it.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
No, Rogue. You can voice your opinion, but you cannot decide what is and what isn't illegal. Being illegal means it's a crime, fact. See my edited post.

Or this:

"Online Piracy and Electronic Theft

The Internet offers music lovers virtually limitless possibilities. Digital technology brings music to a wider public, affords niche artists access to their audiences, makes our vast musical heritage widely available, and distributes old, new and unusual music at affordable prices. Unfortunately, the Internet also gives music pirates a new weapon.

Within the Internet culture of unlicensed use, theft of intellectual property is rampant. The music business and its artists are the biggest victims, and ultimately consumers suffer also. Unauthorized Internet music archive sites (using multiple formats, such as .wav files, or MP3 files) provide illegal sound recordings online to anyone with a personal computer. Music can be downloaded and played indefinitely, without authorization of or compensation to the artists. Other music pirates use the Internet to peddle illegal CDs.

Because of the nature of the theft, the damage is difficult to calculate but not hard to envision. Millions of dollars are at stake. Many individuals see nothing wrong with downloading an occasional song or even an entire CD off the Internet, despite the fact it is illegal under recently enacted federal legislation.".

It's illegal under federal legislation. It's a crime. You have a grand total of 0% say in it.

-AC
see? this is the AC that i know!! fun to talk to AC!!! non insulting AC!!!!

i know that we cant say to congress "hey, this aint a crime."
but we can voice our opinions on it. not that your opinion or mine matters in the grand scheme of things.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
see? this is the AC that i know!! fun to talk to AC!!! non insulting AC!!!!

i know that we cant say to congress "hey, this aint a crime."
but we can voice our opinions on it. not that your opinion or mine matters in the grand scheme of things.

You said you don't think downloading is a crime, it is, as proven.

-AC

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
so do you guys consider marijuana to be illegal? i know that it IS against the law, but i am asking if you think it SHOULD be against the law? thats what i was saying. i do not think that downloading music should be illegal.
this is why i hate when someone steps in and causes drama. they twist your words around however they want to. Marajuina isn't illegal. Being in possession of it is. However, you can get high with out breaking the law, say if someone else holds/owns it.

Perfectly legal to sit in a hot box...

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You said you don't think downloading is a crime, it is, as proven.

-AC
AC.....READ THIS CAREFULLY.....i know that downloading music and smoking weed are both crimes.

my OPINION is that they should not be.

whats so hard to understand?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
AC.....READ THIS CAREFULLY.....i know that downloading music and smoking weed are both crimes.

my OPINION is that they should not be.

whats so hard to understand?

I get that, but originally you said it wasn't a crime. You said "I don't think downloading music is a crime.", to paraphrase. Then started saying it was only a crime in my opinion.

All false.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
ok...i DO NOT consider downloading music to be a crime.

See? You were wrong, I proved you wrong, and now you're acting like you agreed all along.

-AC

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
what is the rule of thumb here? how much should one charge you for this? is it per song or per CD? Dollar per CD. Get the base cost of the CD, and compare it with the fact they most likely donwloaded the music. A dollar + courtesy tips.

Originally posted by VanillaCocaCola
Dollar per CD. Get the base cost of the CD, and compare it with the fact they most likely donwloaded the music. A dollar + courtesy tips.

Conversation way past that....

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I get that, but originally you said it wasn't a crime. You said "I don't think downloading music is a crime.", to paraphrase. Then started saying it was only a crime in my opinion.

All false.



See? You were wrong, I proved you wrong, and now you're acting like you agreed all along.

-AC
my opinion the whole time has been that i do not consider it a crime, it is my opinion to think this. of course i know that in reality it is a crime.
this is not a communist country, i can voice my opinion whenever i want.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
my opinion the whole time has been that i do not consider it a crime, it is my opinion to think this. of course i know that in reality it is a crime.
this is not a communist country, i can voice my opinion whenever i want. REALLY!?

Originally posted by §P0oONY
Conversation way past that....

Eh... figured that would happen.

yes, really. it is, in fact, a democracy.

Originally posted by VanillaCocaCola
REALLY!?



Eh... figured that would happen.

Forum's are a *****, huh? Unless you're there at the start of a thread, you miss the actual thread topic.

trudat.

Anyway, you want me to send you a burnt CD?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
yes, really. it is, in fact, a democracy. Not all users live in the U.S> firefirefireph

Originally posted by VanillaCocaCola
Not all users live in the U.S> firefirefireph Scratch my arse for me.

Originally posted by VanillaCocaCola
You mean the Off-topic forum. I figured that this would attract AC or possibly someone else (I don't go to the music forum much anymore and only know that AC opposes it) and that it would grow to a shitload of pages.

Got to love AC...

Originally posted by VanillaCocaCola
Not all users live in the U.S> firefirefireph

Viva la England!

Originally posted by Valharu
Scratch my arse for me.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
thats crap. they are making their money anyways. what if you want a compilation? like 1 cd with 2 or 3 songs from different artists? are you supposed to buy 6 different cd's with only like 2 or 3 songs you like on each one?

I take the only thing that stops you from going into a store and stealing the albums you'd like is the risk. Right?

Originally posted by Bardock42
I take the only thing that stops you from going into a store and stealing the albums you'd like is the risk. Right? Nah, his nerves are hard as steel.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I take the only thing that stops you from going into a store and stealing the albums you'd like is the risk. Right?
please do not drudge up the shoplifting thing again. its ridiculous. we already talked about this.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
please do not drudge up the shoplifting thing again. its ridiculous. we already talked about this.

No I will drudge it up right here right now. What is the difference? You go in there take an Album go home. You download it at home? What's the difference?

well, if burning cd's is such a travesty, why is it so easy to do? why arent there more laws out there to enforce it?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
well, if burning cd's is such a travesty, why is it so easy to do? why arent there more laws out there to enforce it? Because there is a lack of visual sight. The difference is privacy laws protect people from getting spyware on their PC's, which is the equivalent of a store owners eyes. The difference is, the store owners eyes can only see the person and what they're doing at that time... on the PC it can do worse.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
well, if burning cd's is such a travesty, why is it so easy to do? why arent there more laws out there to enforce it?

It's not burning a CD that is illegal.

And stealing Music over the Internet is illegal. But as I said easy and with yet relatively low risk. But just because it is hard to trace, doesn't make it right or legal. And it is the equivalent of stealing music from a store. No difference.

whatever. i get your point, but i still stand by my decision.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
whatever. i get your point, but i still stand by my decision.

Fair enough.

Just want to make it clear that it is without a doubt stealing. Yes, when someone walks to your home and takes your TV he does what you are doing. I understand you are fine with it. Well, your decision. But it is the same. And that's not just adressed at you. everyone that downloads illegally steals. No different than stealing from a store or a neighbour or your family. Hmm, I think I am repeating the same point again and again, but it seems to me some of you didn't get it yet. Illegally downloading music = Stealing. Don't take offense when you get called thieves. Cause that's what you are. thieves.

lets put things in perspective...how many of us have done one of the following things:
1. drank underage
2. smoked pot
3. snuck into a nightclub underage
4. snuck into the movies
5. stole a pack of gum as a child
6. driven without a seatbelt
7. driven under the influence
8. seen a movie for free
9. talk their way out of late fees at blockbuster
10. smoked a cigarette while being underage

these are all crimes. is there not one of us here who has not committed at least two or three of these crimes?

the bottom line is this: downloading cd's without paying is illegal. but there are far more serious things going on in the world to worry about it. there is war, poverty, rape, homeless people, etc etc;

if someone wants to make a big deal about burning a cd illegally, they are pretty shallow minded.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
lets put things in perspective...how many of us have done one of the following things:
1. drank underage
2. smoked pot
3. snuck into a nightclub underage
4. snuck into the movies
5. stole a pack of gum as a child
6. driven without a seatbelt
7. driven under the influence
8. seen a movie for free
9. talk their way out of late fees at blockbuster
10. smoked a cigarette while being underage

these are all crimes. is there not one of us here who has not committed at least two or three of these crimes?

the bottom line is this: downloading cd's without paying is illegal. but there are far more serious things going on in the world to worry about it. there is war, poverty, rape, homeless people, etc etc;

if someone wants to make a big deal about burning a cd illegally, they are pretty shallow minded.

I've actually done very few of those, hardly any, because stealing just isn't my thing.

The end point you made is what my point is. In a world where our "leaders" are lying to us and stealing from us, we should be giving our respect and money to those making a positive contribution to the world with music. Not stealing from them.

-AC

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
lets put things in perspective...how many of us have done one of the following things:
1. drank underage
2. smoked pot
3. snuck into a nightclub underage
4. snuck into the movies
5. stole a pack of gum as a child
6. driven without a seatbelt
7. driven under the influence
8. seen a movie for free
9. talk their way out of late fees at blockbuster
10. smoked a cigarette while being underage

these are all crimes. is there not one of us here who has not committed at least two or three of these crimes?

the bottom line is this: downloading cd's without paying is illegal. but there are far more serious things going on in the world to worry about it. there is war, poverty, rape, homeless people, etc etc;

if someone wants to make a big deal about burning a cd illegally, they are pretty shallow minded. 1, 2, 4, probabaly 5, 6, 8, does one puff count?

1. drank underage - Done
2. smoked pot
3. snuck into a nightclub underage
4. snuck into the movies - Done
5. stole a pack of gum as a child - Done
6. driven without a seatbelt
7. driven under the influence
8. seen a movie for free - Done and realized it was the same as 4
9. talk their way out of late fees at blockbuster- done
10. smoked a cigarette while being underage

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
lets put things in perspective...how many of us have done one of the following things:
1. drank underage
2. smoked pot
3. snuck into a nightclub underage
4. snuck into the movies
5. stole a pack of gum as a child
6. driven without a seatbelt
7. driven under the influence
8. seen a movie for free
9. talk their way out of late fees at blockbuster
10. smoked a cigarette while being underage

these are all crimes. is there not one of us here who has not committed at least two or three of these crimes?

the bottom line is this: downloading cd's without paying is illegal. but there are far more serious things going on in the world to worry about it. there is war, poverty, rape, homeless people, etc etc;

if someone wants to make a big deal about burning a cd illegally, they are pretty shallow minded.

Lets put things into real perspective again.

Going into a store and stealing a CD = Illegally Downloading Music

Yeah, looks about right.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Lets put things into real perspective again.

Going into a store and stealing a CD = Illegally Downloading Music

Yeah, looks about right.
No - that takes money from the store, rather than the record labels.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
lets put things in perspective...how many of us have done one of the following things:
1. drank underageDone
2. smoked potDone
3. snuck into a nightclub underageDone
4. snuck into the moviesDone
5. stole a pack of gum as a childDone
6. driven without a seatbeltDone
7. driven under the influenceDone
8. seen a movie for freeDone
9. talk their way out of late fees at blockbusterDone
10. smoked a cigarette while being underageDone

.

Originally posted by eggmayo
No - that takes money from the store, rather than the record labels.

True, so basically your downloading is a just war against the big record labels ....that bring you the music you like? Interesting.