Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Since LoTF Luke is too overwhelming for the duo, Yoda and Revan have a chance to redeem themselves by facing DE Luke. Who will win?

yoda or revan alone would give him a hard time. Together they win.

He's more powerful than either one, individually. The ultimate problem with fighting them both is Yoda's agility and ungodly speed. So, while Luke is fighting - and defeating - Revan, Yoda would be all over him.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
yoda or revan alone would give him a hard time. Together they win.
QFT.

What? Luke doesn't stand a chance against this duo.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
What? Luke doesn't stand a chance against this duo.

He does stand a chance. He is more powerful than either one of them, individually. But while he is attacking one, the other will assault him. He can't overcome them together, but he'll give them both a good fight.

No, Glentract is right. He isn't that much more powerful than either of them one on one so he stands no chance against them 2 on 1.

Originally posted by darthsith19
No, Glentract is right. He isn't that much more powerful than either of them one on one so he stands no chance against them 2 on 1.

He stands a chance. But a small one. Because if he kills one of them, lol, the fight is over.

Originally posted by Escape81
He does stand a chance. He is more powerful than either one of them, individually. But while he is attacking one, the other will assault him. He can't overcome them together, but he'll give them both a good fight.

Originally posted by Escape81
He does stand a chance. He is more powerful than either one of them, individually. But while he is attacking one, the other will assault him. He can't overcome them together, but he'll give them both a good fight.

I doubt that Luke in DE already surpassed Yoda - or Sidious. He's clearly not able to beat Sidious on equal ground during their first lightsaber duel and even force wise he's below Sidious.

I think Yoda in his prime, considering his speed and strength in the force might be able to pull this off on his own. Adding Revan is almost overkill - at least it's a guaranteed victory for Revan and Yoda. Luke wouldn't get WTFpwned but I don't see him having a real chance here.

I would put DE Luke slightly above either, but he won't be taking them both down.

Originally posted by Borbarad
I doubt that Luke in DE already surpassed Yoda - or Sidious. He's clearly not able to beat Sidious on equal ground during their first lightsaber duel and even force wise he's below Sidious.

I think Yoda in his prime, considering his speed and strength in the force might be able to pull this off on his own. Adding Revan is almost overkill - at least it's a guaranteed victory for Revan and Yoda. Luke wouldn't get WTFpwned but I don't see him having a real chance here.
DE Luke's feats (Limited to what he did in DE alone):
1.Was able to guide a crashing Star Destoryer down in one piece, using the Force.
2.Destoryed HK Droids with a flick of his wrist.
3.Destoryed an AT-AT by deflecting it's blasts with only a lightsaber then using the Force to destory it.
4.Defeated(Yes, BY HIMSELF! I don't believe in the UNSUPPORTED assumption that Leia was helping him.And since she WAS the only Lightside thing on the ship, it's reasonable to deduct that the aura surronding her was the Lightside itself.) a younger,more powerful Sidious, when even Yoda couldn't defeat DE Sidious' inferior form,thus proving DE Luke>Yoda.
5.Defeated an entire army of Darkside elites(One of the Empire's BEST units.) without almost no effort.

And a lot of other things that I'm too lazy to type down.

This could go in favor of either side.

Although I agree than DE Luke > Yoda, Leia was using battle meditation to help Luke beat Sidious, as it is stated in Empire's End.

Originally posted by Spartan ll
DE Luke's feats (Limited to what he did in DE alone):
1.Was able to guide a crashing Star Destoryer down in one piece, using the Force.

That would help him in a fight how exactly ?



Yoda on his own tooled an army of battle droids.



Yoda did take down a hailfire droid without using his lightsaber and brought the top of a mountain down. Just before lifting the remains of the temple on Ilum up. I guess that surpasses DE Luke's force TK by far.



It's stated that Leia used some Battle Meditation and helped Luke to defeat Sidious. It's pretty obvious that Luke wasn't able to do that on his own as he pretty much went down hard against the freshly "newborn" Sidious just weeks before their second duel. I doubt that Luke did improve that much in that short amount of time.



Yeah. And Yoda took down "legions" of Dark Jedi on Bfassh. So what ?



As I already said (see above): Yoda might be able to do that on his own. With Revan added the duo will simply win this. Not easy, not fast but still...

Originally posted by Borbarad
That would help him in a fight how exactly ?



Yoda on his own tooled an army of battle droids.



Yoda did take down a hailfire droid without using his lightsaber and brought the top of a mountain down. Just before lifting the remains of the temple on Ilum up. I guess that surpasses DE Luke's force TK by far.



It's stated that Leia used some Battle Meditation and helped Luke to defeat Sidious. It's pretty obvious that Luke wasn't able to do that on his own as he pretty much went down hard against the freshly "newborn" Sidious just weeks before their second duel. I doubt that Luke did improve that much in that short amount of time.



Yeah. And Yoda took down "legions" of Dark Jedi on Bfassh. So what ?



As I already said (see above): Yoda might be able to do that on his own. With Revan added the duo will simply win this. Not easy, not fast but still...
1.It shows he has a significant amount of TK. I haven't seen Yoda try to lift a city-like ship with only his mind.

2.Whup dee doo, he destroyed a Hailfire droid. Luke took down an AT-AT. AT-AT>Hailfire droid. And where did he bring the top of a mountain down? If it's Clone Wars, then thats bad proof. CW is HEAVILY overpowered, if Jedi were able to deflect hundreds of blaster bolts, jump to the peak of mountains and destory droids with their bare hands, then the Battle of Geonosis wouldve been a piece of cake. And Luke also destoryed an army of battle droids, with only the flick of his wrist, and these battle droids were more deadly than the puny ones Yoda took down.DE Luke>Yoda

3.Yeah, BS. Where is this stated? It sure as hell isn't mentioned in any book I know. And last time I checked, we haven't even heard of Leia even KNOWING anything about BM let alone actually using it. You're basing most of your 'facts' over unsupported assumptions. And how many days was it before Luke fought the Emperor again? Even so, Luke wasn't even prepared to fight the Clone Emperor when the Clone was decanted.

4.Where is this stated about 'legions', let alone it ever happening? I heard Yoda killed a Dark Jedi on Dagobah, but thats about it. Either way, Dark Jedi aren't anything like Sith trained assassins(Palpatine's BEST Sith trained assassins, may I add.), don't compare apples and oranges. Dark Jedi are siginifcantly weaker because they know nothing about Sith techniques, where a Sith trained assassin could comfortably beat an average Dark Jedi.

And I don't care what it looks like, Luke beat the Clone Emperor. It is never stated nor proven that Leia is using BM, it doesn't even state that she knows it for Christ's sake! You are basing that off of an unsupported assumption.

And last time I checked, the Clone Emperor was a hell of a lot more powerful than either ROTJ or ROTS Sidious. ANd Yoda couldn't even beat the inferior Sidious(ROTS), he wouldn't stand a chance against ROTJ Sidious, and would get tooled by DE Sidious. Hell, even the DE Sourcebook states that Luke and Sidious were moving faster than the eye could see and were tearing Sidious throne room to shreds in the process. When Yoda can go that fast, let me know.

You've shown so many faults on so many different levels in 1 post.

I really dont think that Luke as of DE could take these 2 at the same time. Either would be a good fight against Luke alone. Together they beat him.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You've shown so many faults on so many different levels in 1 post. And you've shown extreme stupidity on many levels before. Seriously, either debate or shut the f*ck up, n00b. Everyone knows you're biased towards Ancient Sith , so knowing you, you'd probably say Revan alone could take Luke(Which complete and utter BS). And Ive actually got points in my post. I remember there being a ROTS Sidious Vs DE Luke, and everyone saying DE would beat him, yet people don't think he could beat Yoda, who was beaten by Sidious. .

And Anomally, I'm not so sure about that. If Luke destroys Revan quickly(Which will most likely happen, since Revan is way below Luke in terms of Force and Saber.), Luke will have a long fight with Yoda but end up beating Yoda in the end.

Originally posted by Spartan ll
Everyone knows you're biased towards Ancient Sith , so knowing you, you'd probably say Revan alone could take Luke(Which complete and utter BS).

Um? What do the Ancient Sith have to do with Revan?

Originally posted by Advent
Um? What do the Ancient Sith have to do with Revan? Last time I checked, Revan wasn't exactly around or alive in the DE or Prequels timeline, he was around four thousand years prior to those events, doesn't get anymore Ancient than there. Therefore I classify him with all the other Sith of that time, the Ancient Sith.

Originally posted by Spartan ll
Last time I checked, Revan wasn't exactly around or alive in the DE or Prequels timeline, he was around four thousand years prior to those events, doesn't get anymore Ancient than there. Therefore I classify him with all the other Sith of that time, the Ancient Sith.

Yes, well last time I canonically checked my canon calendar, the Ancient Sith died with Naga Sadow. Revan is not an Ancient Sith, Kun is not an Ancient Sith.

If Darth Sexy likes the Ancient Sith, he favors the likes of Simus, Ragnos, Ludo, and Naga. The Ancient Sith do not include Revan, so if you're going to "classify" do it right. I mean, it's not like Revan is canonically a Sith anymore anyways. Double f*ck up.

Spartan, you're an idiot for posting once, you're a bigger idiot for responding to facts with childish name calling..

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Spartan, you're an idiot for posting once, you're a bigger idiot for responding to facts with childish name calling.. Childish name calling? Maybe if you could back up YOUR remarks, then maybe a lot more people would respect you. You were the one who drew the first insult, don't chastise me because you don't have the guts to take the heat of my insults.

You haven't even made an argument against me besides insulting me for no reason. Shows how good you are...

Now either debate or go crawl back into the corner you came from, n00b.

@Sama:And whatever floats your boat, Sama. He's still a fanboy of the TOTJ and Kotor periods. Ive seen him arguing against Nai in another thread, he thinks Revan is on par with and can take either Yoda or Mace Windu, which is, again,complete bullshit

Originally posted by Spartan ll
Childish name calling? Maybe if you could back up YOUR remarks, then maybe a lot more people would respect you. You were the one who drew the first insult, don't chastise me because you don't have the guts to take the heat of my insults.

You haven't even made an argument or 'facts' against me besides insulting me for no reason, contradicting yourself, I see. Shows how good you are...

Now either debate or go crawl back into the corner you came from, n00b.

@Sama:And whatever floats your boat, Sama. He's still a fanboy of the TOTJ and Kotor periods. Ive seen him arguing against Nai in another thread, he thinks Revan is on par with and can take either Yoda or Mace Windu, which is, again,complete bullshit

Originally posted by Spartan ll
Childish name calling? Maybe if you could back up YOUR remarks, then maybe a lot more people would respect you. You were the one who drew the first insult, don't chastise me because you don't have the guts to take the heat of my insults.

You haven't even made an argument against me besides insulting me for no reason. Shows how good you are...

Now either debate or go crawl back into the corner you came from, n00b.

@Sama:And whatever floats your boat, Sama. He's still a fanboy of the TOTJ and Kotor periods. Ive seen him arguing against Nai in another thread, he thinks Revan is on par with and can take either Yoda or Mace Windu, which is, again,complete bullshit


http://www.mytakeonthings.com/images/dumbass.jpg

EDIT: Damnit, pressed the wrong button.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
http://www.mytakeonthings.com/images/dumbass.jpg Reported.

And I'm not a dumbass. You are the one who is, since you haven't even made a relevant argument against me.

Again, either debate or go crawl back to the corner you came from, n00b.

Dude, Sexy is more respected than you are. Sexy has also admitted on many occasions that he believes Luke to be the strongest.

Originally posted by Adas
Dude, Sexy is more respected than you are. Sexy has also admitted on many occasions that he believes Luke to be the strongest. Where is he more respected, Adas? Oh, right, he isn't. You really need to stop lying, kiddo.

Hell, even YOU don't like him. And you've also accused him of being tdtd before. Nai doesn't like him, Escape and Lightsnake don't like him. And they're respected debaters around here. So much for him being respected... Now are you going to make an argument against mine on what is relevant to this thread , or are you going to be like Sexy and just waste my time?

I don't dislike any one on these forums. Not even you.

Originally posted by Adas
I don't dislike any one on these forums. Not even you. Funny, because in the 'Sion Force Storm' thread, you even admitted to not liking me. Looks like you just contradicted yourself, again.

Either way, I don't really give a shit if you don't like me. I'm only here for debating purposes, not to see who likes who on the forums. And so far, all everyone's done is waste my time with everything that isn't relevant to this thread.

Not really. I used to dislike you, but I have since changed my mind. I know find you funny.

Originally posted by Adas
Not really. I used to dislike you, but I have since changed my mind. I know find you funny. Yeah, I'm freakin' hysterical. Seriously, you really need to stop lying, kiddo.

Look, are you gonna debate or are you just going to waste my time like everyone else?

Calm down.

Spartan, Nai has provided some evidence that leaves the "DE Luke vs. DE Sidious" battle put into question. Foremost among them, Luke attempted to rebel against Palpatine shortly before the confrontation on Eclipse - and Palpatine easily defeated him in their swordfight.

I don't see how Luke would have been able to improve that much. The artistic rendering of the fight also puts Leia in a glowing aura, as Palpatine and Luke fight. It should be noted, in fact, that Sidious was showing dominance of the fight - until that part of the comic.

Then wham! Sidious is put on his ass, minus his hand.

Put two and two together, and this may either be a glaring inconsistency, or Luke had help during the fight. Either way, we know for certain that DE Luke stood no chance in a Force fight against Palpatine - and required Leia and Anakin to help him conquer the storm.

Anyways...

DE Luke is at least equal to Yoda - and I'd personally put him a tier higher. That said, Yoda would give him a hell of a fight - and Revan is simply over kill. Revan may die, but Luke will most likely be slain.

Originally posted by Spartan ll
Funny, because in the 'Sion Force Storm' thread, you even admitted to not liking me. Looks like you just contradicted yourself, again.

Either way, I don't really give a shit if you don't like me. I'm only here for debating purposes, not to see who likes who on the forums. And so far, all everyone's done is waste my time with everything that isn't relevant to this thread.

Hey kid, stop the idiocy. You had some nice little points in your earlier posts, but now, its a different matter.

And please, do not call people "n00bs". In fact I'd rather have my life than know the 101 of Star Wars facts.

Alright, I trust you, Escape.

Revan goes down, and Luke puts up a good fight with Yoda.

But like I said, we don't even have proof indicating she even KNEW BM, Escape. It isn't even addressed in the comic! And Luke was glowing aswell in the beginning of the DE Series, that it says Leia was virtually the only thing on that that was of the Lightside, so that could also be why she's glowing. And Luke didn't even fell her power joined to his, so even if it did, it had very little effect, otherwise Luke wouldve felt it.

Originally posted by Spartan ll
Alright, I trust you, Escape.

Revan goes down, and Luke puts up a good fight with Yoda.

But like I said, we don't even have proof indicating she even KNEW BM, Escape. It isn't even addressed in the comic! And Luke was glowing aswell in the beginning of the DE Series, that it says Leia was virtually the only thing on that that was of the Lightside, so that could also be why she's glowing. And Luke didn't even fell her power joined to his, so even if it did, it had very little effect, otherwise Luke wouldve felt it.

Luke felt the boost. He and Leia also felt a third presence.

Originally posted by exanda kane
Hey kid, stop the idiocy. You had some nice little points in your earlier posts, but now, its a different matter.

And please, do not call people "n00bs". In fact I'd rather have my life than know the 101 of Star Wars facts. Why don't you take a look back at the first page. I was debating with Nai and minding my own business and then Sexy started insulted me for no reason. Then everyone, including you, decided to jump in and insult me.

And I DO have a life. I rarely even browse these boards. Don't tell me to get a life when I'm not the one he needs it.

I didn't come here to get insulted, I came here to debate. Now either debate with me or stop insulting me.

Originally posted by Escape81
Luke felt the boost. He and Leia also felt a third presence. No, Leia felt the third presence, not Luke. No he didn't, and I quote:
Luke:"Join your Jedi power to mine, Leia."
Leia:" I already am, Luke. Haven't you sensed it?"

^Right there, it proves that he didn't even feel a power boost from either Leia or Anakin and didn't realize Anakin was helping till Leia told him.

Originally posted by Spartan ll
Why don't you take a look back at the first page. I was debating with Nai and minding my own business and then Sexy started insulted me for no reason.

And I DO have a life. I rarely even browse these boards. Don't tell me to get a life when I'm not the one he needs it.

I didn't come here to get insulted, I came here to debate. Now either debate or stop insulting me.

I'm not insulting you, I'm warning you to play down the language and insults, I realise that you started off with some good points, which I acknowledged, but you were too easily provoked. Please try not to be teasted so easily next time. As I said, you both wrote some good posts.

Originally posted by exanda kane
I'm not insulting you, I'm warning you to play down the language and insults, I realise that you started off with some good points, which I acknowledged, but you were too easily provoked. Please try not to be teasted so easily next time. As I said, you both wrote some good posts. Thank you. Finally someone who is actually saying something relevant to the topic(Besides Escape81, of course.).

Originally posted by Spartan ll
No, Leia felt the third presence, not Luke. No he didn't, and I quote:
Luke:"Join your Jedi power to mine, Leia."
Leia:" I already am, Luke. Haven't you sensed it?"

^Right there, it proves that he didn't even feel a power boost from either Leia or Anakin and didn't realize Anakin was helping till Leia told him.

Touche.

But what's that mean? All it means is that Luke understood that he couldn't beat Palpatine alone - and required Leia. Who required Anakin.

That or Luke thought he required Leia. But in the end, it really do anything except give Luke a very minimal boost but it really didn't effect much at all.

Minimal? Are you mad? He had to combine his force potential with Leia and Anakin.

Originally posted by Spartan ll
That or Luke thought he required Leia. But in the end, it really do anything except give Luke a very minimal boost but it really didn't effect much at all.

I'm sorry, my friend. I don't see the logic in it. If Luke possessed the power to defeat Palpatine, he would have done it without their assistance.

Apparently, though, Leia didn't think Luke stood much of a chance either, if she had already combined her power to his.

Where did she this?

And if it really was a good power boost then Luke wouldve felt it, but he didn't until Leia told him, which proves if it was a power boost,it sure as hell wasn't big one or one that would decide the outcome of the duel.

Originally posted by Adas
Minimal? Are you mad? He had to combine his force potential with Leia and Anakin. ...which really didn't affect the outcome of the fight, otherwise Luke wouldve felt the power boost. Let me refer the quote to you, again:
Luke:"Join your Jedi power to mine, Leia."
Leia:" I already am, Luke. Haven't you sensed it?"

He didn't sense it all, he didn't even know Anakin joined them until Leia told him. I'm giving you the facts, it was minimal, otherwise Luke wouldve felt it if it was as powerful as to decide the outcome of the duel.

Originally posted by Spartan ll
Where did she this?

And if it really was a good power boost then Luke wouldve felt it, but he didn't until Leia told him, which proves if it was a power boost,it sure as hell wasn't big one or one that would decide the outcome of the duel.

I'm sorry, Spartan, but what you're arguing with makes no sense. I could say that Luke was in such a mode of concentration - pitting everything that he had against the Storm - that he literally couldn't feel a thing.

The 'feeling' makes no sense.

Then why did Leia ask if he had sensed it? It does make sense. He asks her to join her power to his, she tells him she already has and asks him if he senses it. Therefore if it was as powerful as to decide the outcome of the duel, he wouldve sensed it.

According to you, Luke didn't sense anything. If that is the case, then Leia probably asked to see if he felt more powerful. The point is - Luke obviously didn't think that he could defeat a Force Storm. Leia didn't think that she could - or that he could, for that matter - either.

To top it off, then you have Anakin Solo to add fuel to the fire. Ultimately, it required those three (with the same Force potential and connection as Anakin Skywalker - the Chosen One) to conquer Sidious's Force Storm.



I think that you're trying to imply that either DE Luke = DE Sidious or that DE Luke > DE Sidious. Neither of which are true - especially - in terms of Force powers, where Palpatine is firmly several notches above Luke.

The only versions of Luke who could defeat Sidious are the New Jedi Order version on up.

True, but we aren't talking about the Force Storm, we're talking about the duel between him and Palpatine.

Keyword is 'probably', but the reason was to see if it was affecting him in any way, not if he felt powerful.

We have nothing to go on besides unsupported assumptions. Everyones screaming "Leia used BM!" when we don't even know nor have to proof to her even knowing BM. All we have is her glowing, and like I said before, it was addressed that she was the only Lightside being on that ship. I could even claim that it was the Lightside that made her glow.

And like I said before, Luke was unprepared to face the Emperor in that form. It happened very suddenly, if I remember correctly.

Luke was radiating waves of light during his duel with Palpatine. When Luke faced Palpatine for the second time, he was already back on the light side of the Force.

As for this:



Luke was attempting to rebel against Palpatine, killing off all of his clones. Palpatine's spirit manifested itself in a younger clone, and then proceeded to obliterate Luke in single combat.

Luke could not have improved that much in that short of a timeframe.

Nai's theory seems to be the correct one. It just doesn't make sense.

Originally posted by Escape81
Luke was radiating waves of light during his duel with Palpatine. When Luke faced Palpatine for the second time, he was already back on the light side of the Force.

As for this:



Luke was attempting to rebel against Palpatine, killing off all of his clones. Palpatine's spirit manifested itself in a younger clone, and then proceeded to obliterate Luke in single combat.

Luke could not have improved that much in that short of a timeframe.

Nai's theory seems to be the correct one. It just doesn't make sense.
No, he wasnt glowing. I just checked the comic back on swtimeline, see for yourself.

Obliterate? Uh, no. Palpatine overwlemed Luke, but he didn't obliterate him. They stalemated at one point before Palpatine knocked him down.

How much was the timeframe from that duel to the one over Pinnacle base? When Luke was training with Yoda, he improved over a matter of atleast 2-3 days, your saying it's impossible for Luke to do the same in DE, when he has Palpatine's knowledge and books that Palpatine wrote?

Originally posted by Spartan ll
1.It shows he has a significant amount of TK. I haven't seen Yoda try to lift a city-like ship with only his mind.

Do you actually see the difference between using the force to aid the landing of a taken out ship (done by Anakin in ROTS, done by Luke) and trying to completely lift the ship up and keep it in the air ?



Oh yes ? As you can perfectly see in AotC one rocket from a hailfire droid is enough to take out the AT-AT like walkers the Clones are using so I really don't see were the AT-AT stronger than a hailfire droid.



Considering the CW we have to destinquish between displayed action and story elements. Yoda did defeat the droids on Ilum (story) and he did rescue the two Jedi that were in the temple (hence he had to lift the remains of the temple up). If that seems to be "too overpowered" what is Luke then ?



Oh. Were did he do that, huh ? Luke and Mara together had some trouble dealing with one modified Droideka when they rediscovered the Outbond Flight Project - and this happened about 12 years after DE, so I seriously doubt that Luke by DE would have been able to "destroy an army of battle droids with only the flick of his wrist".



Lmao. Luke did just go there to destroy the Clones and he knew that he had to do it fast or he would have to face the Emperor. And the Emperor was much less prepared for that fight considering he was freshly reborn and didn't even have a weapon at the beginning of the fight. So what ?



During the Clone Wars an entire Jedi training facility on Bfassh went over to the Dark Side and joined the CIS due to Dooku's influence. The Jedi did attack them and the Dark Jedi Yoda killed on Dagobah was the last remaining of that Jedi. And a "Sith trained assassin" also doesn't know Sith techniques since those (at least under Palpatine) were just kept by the two existing Sith.
Aside of that Yoda obviously confronted a real Sith once given that he knew about the Rule of Two before TPM.



Oh yes. Let's ignore how the Emperor just floored Luke with a lightning blast right on the page before they engage in the duel. Than you see Leia closing her eyes and focusing, a bright light surrounding her and suddenly Luke is able to defeat Sidious. And the just to tell you: Between the two fights is precisely the time Han and Leia needed to travel from Byss to Mon Calamari + one day (fight on Mon Calamari). But maybe Luke advanced his skill so much in the matter of a few days ? I doubt it.



And as I said: Luke wasn't able to beat DE Sidious on his own. And Yoda's speed ? You're talking about the same Yoda that was able to dodge attacks from 3 Jedi at once without using his lightsaber while it looked like he was "hardly moving at all" ?



There is a difference between "joining your power to somebody" or simply use a force technique to boost up somebody else in terms of combat skills (Battle Meditation). I doubt that people like Oppo Rancisis or Bastilla were "all powerful" (compared to their superiors) but still they could influence entire armies using Battle Meditation.

And what Leia did was "unlocking unknown resources in Luke" when they "joined" their powers meaning she basically unlocked parts of his potential which weren't yet realized.



Given that you don't even know how long Luke stayed with Yoda using that as an argument is pretty stupid. Luke needed 6 months to advance from ESB to ROTJ level (or from getting pwned by Vader to be able to compete with Vader) while he was almost fighting or studying the entire time. I doubt that some similar skill boost would happen in the matter of a few days especially when we see Sidious putting Luke on his back with a single force attack just moments before the engaged in the duel in which Leia was clearly aiding Luke.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Do you actually see the difference between using the force to aid the landing of a taken out ship (done by Anakin in ROTS, done by Luke) and trying to completely lift the ship up and keep it in the air ? True, but I'd put ROTS Anakin below DE Luke in terms of Force and saber. And the fact that DE Luke was actually able to land the SD(Which is the size of a city.) in one piece, actually proves that he is powerful enough to do it. Anakin was barely even holding a the ship togehter, Luke wasn't even tired after it, considering we heard from Lando that he just took off after the crash.


First of all, the AT-TE is weaker than the AT-AT because it is more open to ground attacks(As Seen in Clone Wars), the AT-ATs only weakness is in it's legs, and AT-ATs also have precision laser canons on either side of the cockpit to destory any incoming missles that are going to hit them. You're comparing apples and oranges again..



Yeah, and Luke defeated an army of droids(As Han stated, the salvagers built there own little army and even had akk dogs.) and a group of deadly akk dogs and was able to land an SD (Again, one SD is the size of a city.) in one piece. An SD is larger than the Crystal Caves of Illum, I would say. And the BDs and akk dogs Luke destroyed were more powerful than the droids Yoda faced on Illum.




http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/8846/darkempire18ud1.jpg
Han even mentions a few pages before that the scavengers have there own little private army of rebuilt Battle Droids, not just the 3 above that explode, but a whole army of them explode. Plus, these are more powerful and more advanced droids than the BI and B2 series of battle droids, considering its been atleast 27 years since the Clone Wars.

Really? The Clone Emperor seemed very confident of himself even before they both had the saber duel. Palpatine was prepared, he knew that Clone Lab like the back of his hand, he had to.



The Rule of Two wasn't even established yet in DE's time. So your point right there is moot. They did know Sith techniques, they were given limited training under Palpatine himself(DE Sourcebook). Much better than average Dark Jedi, I think.

And a so you are saying that the Jedi just sent Yoda to go there alone?
You don't have proof of him even going there all alone, by himself. For all you know, he couldve brought the entire Jedi Order AND Clone Army there. I doubt the Jedi would be foolish just send one Jedi after an entire group DarK Jedi, no matter how inferior to Sith trained Assassins taught under Palpatine himself, may be.



Yes and let's ignore that it is never mentioned nor has it been proven that Leia even KNOWS anything about BM in either comic. Luke advanced in his skills only a few days when he was with Yoda on Dagobah. What makes you think that with all the resources Palpatine gave him, he couldn't learn more?

And you forgot, the duel was over Pinnacle Base, not Mon Calamari, which is half way across the galaxy, from what time we saw Lando's squadron arrive, it had to have been atleast 2-3 days, which means he had 4 days to study Palpatine's teachings and books.



As I said, you have no proof of Leia even knowing anything about BM, so stop screaming it every 5 minutes, when you actually find proof to that, then I'll listen. What '3 Jedi' are you talking about? Where are you getting this?



Then why didn't he sense her doing this? It doesn't make sense, he tells her to join her power to his, and she already is, but he doesn't sense her doing it already? If so, doesn't seem to have done that much otherwise, like Leia said, he wouldve sensed it.

And you still haven't shown me proof of Leia even knowing BM. When you do, tell me.

In I think it was Shadows of the Empire or the ESB novel, I'll have to take a look, Vader admits that he was hard pressed against Luke when they dueled on Cloud City. ROTJ Luke was litterally Vader's equal and maybe more, and Luke by ROTJ couldve litterally destoryed Vader but was holding back, it even states this. And Luke only got his knowledge from Ben Kenobi's old hut in Shadows of the Empire, nowhere else. And Luke didn't get 'PWNed' by Vader, he was actually able to compete with him where other, more powerful Jedi, wo were trained from birth, failed against him(Roan Shrine, the Jedi from Purge...), even when Vader was just getting used to being in the Suit. That right there, shows how powerful Luke was after Yoda's training(Which was only 2 or 3 days, from the ESB novel.).

Originally posted by Spartan ll
True, but I'd put ROTS Anakin below DE Luke in terms of Force and saber. And the fact that DE Luke was actually able to land the SD(Which is the size of a city.) in one piece, actually proves that he is powerful enough to do it. Anakin was barely even holding a the ship togehter, Luke wasn't even tired after it, considering we heard from Lando that he just took off after the crash.


Wow. First the Star-Destroyer wasn't intact ("I can see what is left of the Liberator" and second Luke didn't land it - it were Lando and Wedge.



Yes. Because they have precision laser canon able to take down flying objects they are unable to hit the attacking rebel vessels in ESB, correct ?



Would you please stop with that bullshit.

1)
It's mentioned that there are scarvengers and "junk-traders" from all over the Galaxy coming to that battlefield. Obviously they are not all in that place.

2)
Same for "their own little army"

3)
You can precisely see how many people are attacking the rebels. It's one vessel filled with them. So obviously the droids we see Luke taking down there is all Luke has taken down there. So please don't come up with "he destroyed an army of droids" because he didn't.

4)
More advanced ? Oh yes. Because we know that there are droids in use that are sometimes several centuries old - even thousands of years, those things must be advanced compared to the Battledroids of the Clone Wars.



Oh my. Given that he was just reborn and given that he didn't have any weapon at hand he obviously wasn't that prepared. And if he was self-confident, then because he knew that Luke wasn't able to beat him in personal confrontation.



The Rule of Two was established 1,000 years before ANH. You were saying ? Aside of that Palpatine's "trainees" were either Dark Jedi themselves or - even worse in terms of force powers - Emperor's hands.



Did I say he went there on his own ? I was merely stating the fact that Yoda had fought Sith before the PT, fought Sith during the PT (Dooku and Sidious) and obviously fought Dark Jedi.



Are you really that stupid ? After training for weeks / months under the Emperor he was not able to beat him even when the Emperor was freshly "reborn" and had no weapon at the beginning of the match. Then we see Sidious putting Luke on the ground with a single force attack just before they fight.
Then we see Leia starting to focus, Luke gives a nice "the path of a Jedi is not a lonely part" speec (indicating again that Leia is helping him) and then he defeats Sidious who - again - did floor him only moments before



Wow. He had weeks or months before that to do so and wasn't able to overcome Palpatine after he did it. But suddenly he is ? Use your head.



Battle Meditation was just a guess. Obviously she does use the force to help Luke. What she did exactly is not important.

Read "Shadow Hunter". Yoda wants to demonstrate the power of the force to some Jedi students, is attacked by Depa Billaba and two other Jedi. Depa is on the level of Mace when it comes to bladework - possible even above (as Mace states himself in "Shatterpoint". So if Yoda can dodge that "without effort" he must be pretty fast.



Then why does the omniscient narrator descripes what she does exactly when she's not doing anything ? Oh my...that makes sense, huh ?



And when the arguments are out we can just use lies.
Vader pretty much destroyed Luke in ESB with ease. He tossed him around, he threw stuff at him at will and when Vader lost his control for a second, Luke suddenly had a hand less. If Vader would have intented to kill Luke, then Luke would have been death in the first minute of their duel.

And there is no mentioning of the time period that passed during Luke's training with Yoda. Given that his friends had the time to hide in the meteor field, escape the Imperials, fly to Bespin with their damaged engine and spent some time there - that's quite a lot of time for training.

About Yoda dodging those jedi:

She had attended a lecture on battle techniques given by Master Yoda earlier this year, and the memory of it came back to her now.

Yoda had faced the assembled students and spoken, his thin reedy voice somehow carrying to the far corners of the lecture hall without benefit of amplifiers.

"Better than training, the Force is. More than experience or speed it gives." And he had given a demonstration. Three members of the council - Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin, and Depa Billaba, excellent fighters all had come forward and attacked him. Master Yoda had not been armed, and had not seemed to move more than a meter or so, his tread slow and measured. Nevertheless, none of the three had been able to lay a finger on him. The lesson had struck powerfully home: Knowledge of the Force was infinitely better than technique.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Wow. First the Star-Destroyer wasn't intact ("I can see what is left of the Liberator" and second Luke didn't land it - it were Lando and Wedge. DE Sourcebook says Luke used the Force to activate the engines and land it. And of course it would have damage, it was fighting Imperials remember? Luke managed to land what was left of it in one piece.


You see one at that is flying straight at the AT-AT get hit by them then it crashes.



1. I didn't say they were all from that place, but a good concentrated amount of them were.

2. No, not the same for their 'little army'. They took those from battlefields abandoned by the Imperial Warlords and Royalists, that's why the Rebels said they used 'Hot Wired Weapons Droids'. Are you now going to say that the Imperials on both sides, didn't use BDs?

3. Yeah, like he didn't fight his way through the battlefield to get to the ruined Imperial Palace?

4. So now you're saying newer battledroids weren't used by the Imperials on both sides? Most of the CIS factories were left abandoned, and the battle droids we saw in the Prequels weren't as tall or as powerful as the ones in DE.

So you say sinnce he knew Force Lightning, he couldn't have used it at that time? DOn't make me laugh, Nai. He couldve he couldve used Force Lightning at that time if he wanted to.




I was saying the Rule of Two wasn't even made when DE was published! And Jerec or Treymne was weak in terms of Force Powers? Both were accomplished Jedi Masters before turning to the darkside. And I said 'limited' teaching under Palpatine, again, from the DE Sourcebook.





ORLY?


'Weeks/ Months'? Don't bullshit me, Nai. Luke was only there for I'd say 5 days, maybe a 10 days at the most. And like I said, the Emperor was just decanted in a new , more powerful, body. Yoda sure as hell wouldn't be able to take him down, considering he couldn't even beat his inferior version(ROTS).

Yeah, and he gets up.

What does she focus, huh? The comic doesn't even SAY this. It shows her glowing, it doesn't state BM, it doesn't even say she KNOWS BM! FOr all I and you know, that may just be the Lightside protecting her because she IS on a ship that is full of the Darkside, you know.

Again, bullshit. He was only there for atleast 5-10 days, from my estimation.
And he wasn't even prepared to face Palpatine in that form of power.

Would you be able to fight someone as powerful as the Clone Emperor for the first time, that you didn't know any strengths or weakness about and win? No.

Luke learned from this experience, he knew Palpatine's weakness(Fear.) hence why he was able to take him down.



Stop guessing. Yeah, but where is it stated that she used the Force to help him in the duel against Palpatine? The only time we even hear of her helping, is to destory the Force Storm, and even then, he couldn't sense her or Anakin helping him.



Oh my, you're bullshiting again. It doesn't say anything ABOUT Leia. I have the page up now, I'll give you what it says:
Palpatineo be it---- THROUGH THE POWER OF THE FORCE YOU WILL DIE!
*Proceeds to fight Luke in 3 panels before getting his hand cut off in the 4th panel*

That's all it says.

Funny, I remember Vader commenting on him being 'Most impressive.' and having 'Learned Much.' before finally getting knocked off the Carbon Freezing Platform. And when Vader went inot a frezy, I remember him earning an injured shoulder.

And I wasn't lying. It was in Shadows that Vader said he was hard pressed against Luke, he even comments on how good he was when he his shoulder starts to ache.

True, and there is no mentioning of how long Luke was in the Emperor's service either, if I may recall.

Originally posted by Jen'ari
About Yoda dodging those jedi:

She had attended a lecture on battle techniques given by Master Yoda earlier this year, and the memory of it came back to her now.

Yoda had faced the assembled students and spoken, his thin reedy voice somehow carrying to the far corners of the lecture hall without benefit of amplifiers.

"Better than training, the Force is. More than experience or speed it gives." And he had given a demonstration. Three members of the council - Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin, and Depa Billaba, excellent fighters all had come forward and attacked him. Master Yoda had not been armed, and had not seemed to move more than a meter or so, his tread slow and measured. Nevertheless, none of the three had been able to lay a finger on him. The lesson had struck powerfully home: Knowledge of the Force was infinitely better than technique. So in other words, he was fighting against 3 Jedi not using the Force? Good example there, Nai.

Originally posted by Spartan ll
DE Sourcebook says Luke used the Force to activate the engines and land it. And of course it would have damage, it was fighting Imperials remember? Luke managed to land what was left of it in one piece.


Wow. "Using the force to activate some engines" = "lifting up a Stardestroyer". Thank you for letting me know. So if somebody uses the force to activate the Death Stars Hyperdrive that equals "force pushing the death star into another sun system", correct ? Idiot...



Yes. And a hailfire droid has 30 missles, each of them capable of causing nice damage to an AT-AT. Who wins ?



Precisely zero of them - aside from those fighting the rebels - were seen. So what ?



Did you miss the fact that his Stardestroyer crashed right next to the Imperial Palace and when Luke appears for the first time it says that he "emerges from the ruins of the Imperial Palace". So where did he had to fight through the "battlefield" to get to the Palace if he crashed right next to it ?

And it doesn't matter how strong those droids were since Luke didn't kill an army of them.



Yes they received limited teaching and were descriped as "Dark Jedi". So what ?



Oh you say he was only there for 5 or 10 days. It's nice what you say but it doesn't matter. And what do I care if Yoda could take DE Sidious down if Luke himself wasn't able to do it.



ROFL. Yes. A Jedi now needs "protection from the Dark Side" when being at a place where the Dark Side is powerful and due to that fact has to focus on that protection, with closed eyes and without moving. More bullshit you have in your head ?



You estimation doesn't mean jack shit and it's stupid.

Just to give you some lesson in terms of SW science. The Hyperdrive of the Falcon was damaged meaning Luke's friends have to go with sublight speed. The Falcon is capable of traveling 40 MGLT with a MGLT being defined as speed of 400 metres / second.

That turns into 57,600 kilometres / hour maximum sublight travel speed for the Falcon.

Now if we take our own sun system as basis the next planet (Venus) has a minimum distance to earth of 40 million kilometres. With the sublight travel speed of the Falcon you would need 694 hours (or about 28 days) to get there.

As you might have figured out by now, it's quite more reasonable that Luke stayed weeks or even more than a month at Dagobah then coming up with "a few days".



Stupid, more Stupid, Spartan II.
Luke stayed for quite a long time period with the Emperor but suddenly he figures out Sidious weakness ? How dumb can assumptions get. Let's ignore how Leia is focusing on something in the background, starts getting surrounded by some nice glowing light and how Luke gives a speech about how the part of a Jedi is no lonely part and instead of assume that Leia somehow aided Luke - let's assume that all over a sudden Luke figured out how to defeat the Emperor in a lightsaber duel when he was put on his ass in the first duel and put on his ass again just SECONDS before the fight started, when he was clearly willing to use his lightsaber against Sidious.

Yes. That makes sense...



Really. What should she have done there, using the force if NOT either strengthen Luke or weaken Sidious. There is nothing else that makes sense.



Have a look at Leia. Have a look at the background. Do you spot something ? Luke right before tells use that "the way of the Jedi is not a solitary one" meaning he has help.



The point is that Luke wasn't able to defend himself against Vader's force attacks and that he wasn't able to outduel Vader. If Vader's intention would have been to kill him there, he could have just force choked him to death. In ROTJ he was able to keep up with Vader while he clearly wasn't in ESB. Same in this situation. He clearly isn't able to keep up with the Emperor even when having every advantage on his side - and suddenly he should be able to do that ?



We know that:
- Luke was transported to the Emperor and started serving him
- in the meantime Han and Leia go back to the Rebel Base (core worlds -> outer rim)
- then they spent some days in the rebel base (Han training new pilots, Leia feeling that something is wrong with Luke "for days"
- then they again travel from the Rebel Base to Nar Shadda and spent some time there
- then they go from Nar Shadda to Mon Calamari
- then back to the Pinnacle Moon

Given that I'd say Luke did stay with the Emperor for at least 2 weeks possibly more time - depends how many time Han needed to train the pilots exactly (at least "days" and how much time the travels would need and how long they stayed at all that places.

1.It's better than what Yoda did. Also, Luke had to guide it down to the surface. Engines aren't going to control themselves, considering they lost control of it before Luke got back control of the SD.



2.The AT-AT. It destorys all the missles the hail fire droid is launching, and while doing that , it fires it's chin guns and destorys the hailfire droid. Point?



3. They have an army enough to keep the Rebels pinned down, and even the Rebels were having trouble against them. Are you going to say that just because Leia near the end of DE, saying "Thousands of warriors are dying!" and that warriors are not shown dying, that there are no 'thousands of warriors'?



4.Yes, it does. The battle droids Yoda fought were weaker, outdated models. You could basically sneak up right behind them and they'd still concentrate on firing at their main target(s).

And did you think the Imperial Loyalists or Renegades, wouldnt have captured the Imperial first and then leave it undefended? Yeah right...


5. They didn't get to be Jedi Masters or one of Palpatine's Hand's just by sitting around and doing nothing. Hell, Jerec even had a technique that blinds his opponents to the Force, making them unable to use the Force at all and you're saying he's weak? Remind me not to ask you who's weak and who's strong in the SW Universe, Nai.

And it also says that they were "able to feed on the life energy of others and accumlating Force energy in there own bodies". And that "they leanred to redirect this accumalated power in many ways- either as a weapon or in manipulation of molecular structures". And that he 'never allowed them to ascend to HIS level but they became powerful Dark Side magicians in their own right". Uh yeah, Palpatine's Sith trained Assassins are a hell of a lot more powerful than an average Dark Jedi, from what Ive read.



6.Oh, YOU SAY he was there for weeks and months, and don't have proof to back it up besides your own opinion. That makes you better than me? And what do I care that YOU SAY Leia was using BM and keep yelling it out and yet have no proof that says she even KNOWS BM. Yeah, real intelligent there, Nai.

And what makes you think your word is better than mine? You've contradicted yourself saying about Leia using BM and keep screaming it in every post, then say it was just a guess. Then, you say the writer says something about Leia during Palpatine's second duel with Luke, and yet there is nothing even MENTIONING her on that same page.

And so you're saying that Yoda can take DE Sidious down? Funny, I remember Yoda in the ROTS Novel admitting that he couldn't even take down ROTS Sidious, who is weaker than both ROTJ and DE Sidious. Again, you make your stupidity known.

You are an idiot, Nai. You don't need to keep proving it to everyone.



7.No, logic. I remeber a few pages back, Palpatine reaching for Leia and then getting his hand being fried. You are saying that that glow isn't the Lightside, when it was protecting her and her unborn son only a few pages before? Atleast I have points to my argument, Nai. And where does she close her eyes, tell me? All we do is see her stand around. The only time she closes her eyes, is when they are trying to turn Palpatine's Force Storm against himself. Your Point: Moot.


8.Touche, but that still doesn't mean that Luke couldn't have learned more in the time it took from Leia and the others to go to Calamari, then to get back to Pinnacle Base.Which would be maybe a 3-4 days maybe even 5, to get to Calamari from Byss.And then 2 days or so to get to back to Pinnacle Base from Calamari


9.How long did he stay then, Nai? Tell me, does it say so in the comic?

And Luke hasn't even went up against the old Sidious yet, how do you expect him to know a weakness against a new, more powerful Sidious?

How dumb can YOUR assumption get? You don't even have PROOF to show Leia was even helping during the fight. ALl you have is 'a white aura' which can mean anything. It can mean she was surrounded by the Lightside of the Force, considering she was the only Lightside thing on that ship. And yes, Luke got knocked down, but he got up didn't he? I still don't where you're going with this. All you have is an unsupported assumption on YOUR part to work with.



10.Yes, there is. It could easily have been the Lightside of the Force surrounding her with that 'white aura'. You keep babbling about BM and her helping him during the duel, yet don't have any proof to prove your claim. The only time Leia is even mentioned helping him is after the duel, when they are about to turn the Force Storm against Palpatine. THAT IS IT. When you find some REAL proof to show me that your theory is right, let me know. Until then, you're full of shit.



11.Have a look at the next page? See anything mentioning Leia helping him, before the Force Storm? No. Meaning that she wasn't doing anything to help him, up until the Force Storm.



12.Leia isn't even mentioned helping Luke in the duel before the Force Storm, and people think that a 'white aura' means she's doing it? Just another unsupported assumption.



13. They don't go from Nar Shaadaa to Calamari. They go to Byss, and (after the confrontation with the Emperor) THEN go to Calamari and then go back to Pinnacle Base. And considering Calamari is VERY far from Byss(I just looked at the Galaxy Map in my Unifying Force book, it's half way across the galaxy from Byss and maybe more.), Calamari is beyond the outer rim, so that'd take maybe 3-4, or maybe even 5, days, to get to Calamari from Byss. Then 2 days to get back to Pinnacle Base,Which means Luke had enough time to get more training and learn more knowledge to get more powerful and enough to study the Clone Emperor's weaknesses, now that he can actually somewhat study the Clone Emperor.

Originally posted by Spartan ll
1.It's better than what Yoda did. Also, Luke had to guide it down to the surface. Engines aren't going to control themselves, considering they lost control of it before Luke got back control of the SD.


Yes, of course. Reactivating the engines of a starship and then land it is "better" than collapsing a mountain top, causing an avalanche that burries some nice amount of droids or lift an entire temple up which was carved inside a mountain (so million tons of stone, rock and crystal). Yeah.



Oh simply forget it. The point was that Yoda could have done to the AT-AT what Luke did.



Yes. Can it be that you are totally unable to comprehend some comics. There is a full scale battle happening on the planet between two Imperial factions when Han and Leia arrive. The Rebels are just "pinned down" there because they just crashed their stardestroyer - they aren't "pinned down" there by some scarvengers.
And no: I say that the Rebels were just attack by that few enemy forces because it just shows them being attacked by that small enemy force while you try to create some enemies which obviously didn't even exist.



Luke destroyed 3, Yoda destroyed an army and Luke twelve years after DE had some considerable problem to take out one of the droids Yoda was fighting. You were saying ?



WTF are you talking about. The Imperial Palace was a freaking ruin and the battles were happening outside of the Imperial City as we all could perfectly see. So don't try to make stuff up.



Trying to be funny ? I just said that the Dark Jedi were obviously not as strong as the original Sith - otherwise Vader wouldn't have been the second most powerful guy in the Empire. The point is that the secrets of the Sith were only given to Sidious own apprentices - not to the other "students" he had.



Uh...force drain. Never seen before...



Did you actually read my post, idiot ?
I've presented you quite some proof why the Millinium Falcon would have needed weeks to travel to Bespin (exact speed of the Falcon without hyperdrive, possible distance between two planets) and you presented - nothing. Oh yeah. Thanks.
And again: She used some technique to aid Luke. Or to be more simple to fit the capacity of your two brain cells: Leia meditated to support Luke in battle. You might call that whatever you want.



You are really the pinnacle of idiocy, correct ?
You were arguing that Leia didn't use the force at all. I was just arguing that because the narrator precisely tells us what she does "unlocking unexpeted resources in Luke". See:

http://intern.darklegion.de/eddie/DE/narrator.jpg




You are the only idiot here. Where did I say Yoda can take down DE Sidious ? I just said I don't care if Yoda can do it or not because Luke is unable to do it, meaning if both opponents are unable to take person number 3 down in a direct confrontation on their own it's just impossible to create an argument out of that fact. It's like saying Han Solo > Lando Calrissian because they both can't beat Darth Vader in a lightsaber duel. Makes much sense, doesn't it ?



Oh, yes. What great "points" you have. So Leia is not closing her eyes and focusing ? Damn. What does she do here (on the page before the duel happens):
http://intern.darklegion.de/eddie/DE/Leiafocus.jpg

Ups. Looks like she's closing her eyes in the first picture and looks rather concentrated in the second. Doesn't she ?

And then ?
http://intern.darklegion.de/eddie/DE/duel.jpg

Oh my. Look how she has the nice glow surrounding her. That should be the same that "protected" her from Sidious when he touched her - which wasn't even done at will, much less with some glow surrounding her. Even more funny that there is no need to use the light side for self defence in this situation. Also you can spot the background getting brighter as if somebody is pushing Sidious Dark Side powers back using the force. Could that be Leia perhabs ? And it's nice how she isn't moving...

And because was capable of doing that on his own he later says this:
http://intern.darklegion.de/eddie/DE/together.jpg

Ah...WTF ?



The Falcon was able to cross the 40,000 lightyears from Tantooine to Alderaan in 7 hours accourding to ANH which is the highest level of canon. Since the Galaxy is approx. 100,000 lightyears wide there isn't a single place that the Falcon can't reach in the matter of one day.



The only thing that does matter here is that there was obviously far more time passing between the first meeting of Luke and the Emperor and their first duel, and then the first duel and the second duel.



He studied under Sidious for a considerable amount of time without spotting "weaknesses" but all over a sudden - in the matter of seconds - he finds said weaknesses. And so great weaknesses that he suddenly is able to defeat the Emperor on his own. Yes ? Oh wait:

http://intern.darklegion.de/eddie/DE/Leiafocus.jpg

Why does he tell the Emperor then that the way of the Jedi is "not a solitary one" while you can see Leia focusing in the back ground. This is so obvious that nailing it on your forehead would be the only possible way to make it more obvious.

And yes...maybe Leia used "force stoppage" because she was in desperate need to take a leak but why don't we assume she did the only reasonable thing which is helping Luke ? For the rest of your complete and utter nonsens just see above.

for the last time Spartan, Leia was even STATED to have used elementary Battle Meditation. And I would say Luke served the emperor for a few months. It would make no sense for him to serve for a few weeks and learn so much from him, including the dark side compendium, so a few months sounds plausible.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yes, of course. Reactivating the engines of a starship and then land it is "better" than collapsing a mountain top, causing an avalanche that burries some nice amount of droids or lift an entire temple up which was carved inside a mountain (so million tons of stone, rock and crystal). Yeah. It is, considering he had to use the Force to guide it WITH SOME HELP from the engines. And las I stated before, the Databank says one Stardestoryer is the size of a city.



No, he couldn't. Yoda had trouble with a Hailfire droid, and a hailfire is weaker than an AT-AT, what makes you think he could take an AT-AT down if he couldn't destory a hailfire?



Funny, considering Leia and Han have to destory an AT-AT just to get to the Rebels. Your point:Moot.


First of all, the droideka was modified that way it could roll WITH it's shields up, even Yoda would have had trouble with a droideka like that.

All Yoda fought were droidekas who didn't even have their shield generators activated, of course they would be destoryed easily. Your point:Moot.



Funny, considering the Han said "Luke put it down right in the middle of the action." Your point: Moot.



The information in DE says differently. They were Sith trained(Sedriss, his dark side minion, the name for him escapes me) Hell, even Kam Solusar says he was one of the Sith trained Assassins when referring to him, and he was taught in some of the ways of the Sith.



Read the article at the end of Dark Empire #1, it clearly says what I told you before.



Funny, considering it never EVER referrs to her helping Luke unti they turn Sidious' Force Storm against him. Without sufficien prooof, don't claim it. Idiot.



LMAO! That's when they try to destroy Sidious' Force Storm, NOT during the duel. You really need to stop lying.




Did I say you said Yoda could take down DE Sidious? No, I said that Yoda couldn't even take down Sidious' inferior form(ROTS). I even provided Yoda saying it in the ROTS Novel. Yoda couldn't even take down ROTJ Sidious', you saying he's more powerful than DE Luke is like saying Yoda could take down DE Sidious.



Bullshit. Look at her eyes on the last panel:
http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/5117/darkempire191kd3.jpg
Notice something? HER EYES ARE OPEN!
And on the next page, you can't even make out of her eyes are open or not. Don't bullshit me, Nai.

You can't even tell she's closing her eyes, and second, nothing is even referring to her helping him, until they try take down the Force Storm. Again, don't bullshit me, Nai. Until you find proof and a quote stating that she was helping him BEFORE the Force Storm, your shit outta luck.

Yeah, taking down his Force Storm and using it against him. Again, nothing stating she was helping him win the duel.



Where did you get this info? Link?








How long did he study under the Emperor? The EXACT time?
He even stated he spotted Sidious' weakness(Fear) and even said so.
You think he couldn't use that against Sidious? Certainly better than your 'Leia was helping Luke!' theory, puls I actually have a quote to prove my theory, unlike you, who you only have a quote AFTER Leia helping Luke to destory the Force Storm. Your Point:Moot.

She isn't focusing on ANYTHING! She doesn't even have her eyes closed! And it's impossible for her to use BM, even IF she knows it. It only works on armies and big groups of people, not just one person, it even says so in TOTJ and KOTOR.

That, or Luke found the weakness of the Emperor(Which HE DID! He even says so in the comic.) and used it to his advantage.

Originally posted by Spartan ll
It is, considering he had to use the Force to guide it WITH SOME HELP from the engines. And las I stated before, the Databank says one Stardestoryer is the size of a city.

Wow. Anakin did the same in ROTS. Anakin > Yoda + Revan ?



Where did Yoda have problems ? And considering he could lift the remains of a temple up I don't see why he should have problems to push an AT-AT down.



Funny how they were flying through the battle outside the city while we have no indication of combat happen anywere close to the rebels who are standing around in the middle of some open field. Way to behave during a battle...
Your observation: Flawed.



Yes. Because Droideka shields can be disable by pushing them into a wall overloading the shields. I was merely talking about the fact that somebody who has problems with taking one droid done is most likely not able to deal with an entire armies of them. Or is the force now stopped by shields ?



Yes. This is why Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon had to run away from two of them. Your grasp on the facts: Non-existant.



Funny how the action happens outside of the city and Luke landed inside the city. So the "middle of the action" is the middle of the forces fighting around the city and not literary the "middle of the ongoing battle".



And they were all below Vader hence I don't see were this is compareable to Yoda fighting the likes of Dooku or the Emperor himself. Hell Kam manages to cut one of them down with the first strike in their lightsaber duel and Luke pwns Sedriss with a force push. While Sedriss himself is not capable to do anything better than a force grip. Sha and Mordi were taken down by Jem (almost untrained) and Leia with two lightsaber strikes. The rest was mawn down by Kam, Brand (crippled) and Rayf (also almost untrained). What great Sith training it must have been they received...lmao...



Play KotoR. Again: "Uh...force drain. Never seen before."



Aside of: Leia focusing, Leia glowing, the background changing and some sourcebooks claiming that Leia aided him with minor battle meditation. Who was the "idiot" here ? Oh yeah. You.



Didn't you say that Leia was hardly doing anything and this was what I arguing ? Oh yeah.



Yes. You did that, idiot. Not able to remember your own nonsense ? Luke was not able to defeat DE Sidious on his own and Yoda would have been able to defeat ROTS Sidious given that Yoda inferior Mace did put the Dark Lord on his ass. End of story.




See above. Stop boring me.



What about simply watching ANH, watch when they start (time given) and then hear Han saying when they will arrive (time given). Can you stand so much math ? I doubt it but maybe you can surprise me.



How in hell would Luke "use" the "fear" he just estimates the Emperor has (because he feels it - lol) in a lightsaber duel ? Make scary faces and scare the sh*t out of Sidious ?
And that's certainly better than my "Leia was helping Luke" theory since that's not a theory but A FACT.



What bullshit. In TOTJ when Arca is using it on Onderon, it is shown that it increases the will of a single beat warrior and thereby enables him to defeat the opponent that was just about to kill him. So obviously it does work on single person. So thanks for your opinions again which is - as always - false.



He estimates that the Emperor fears something yet that isn't something you can exploit in a lightsaber fight. And as Luke says that he has this feeling because he experienced the Dark Side himself and now was able to understand Vader, he must have felt the same during the first duel with the Emperor. So what ?

Nai, I'd like to comment and say that Palpatine's duel with Mace is a lot different from the one he had with Yoda. The only thing that allowed Mace to win was his Shatterpoint ability - and then you have to take into consideration that neither of them were using the Force (until Palpatine was in such a position that the attack was useless).

Palpatine > Mace in all Force powers - and can be considered his equal in pure swordsmanship. In an all out fight, Palpatine would have defeated Mace. You know it, and so do I. Hell, Mace had a hell of a time when Palpatine was on his ass, blasting him with Force lightning.

Now, imagine if Palpatine decided to use his superior Force powers when he would be in an equal position to Mace. Mace would have died.

That said, it is unknown if Yoda would've beaten Palpatine or not - given that the disarming scene was removed from the movie (it's not canon). For all we know, Palpatine knocked Yoda back - tucked the saber away - and opted for long ranged assaults. Regardless, Yoda was forced to flee because Palpatine was the smarter fighter - and Yoda was reckless.

And, I know you haven't stated it - but DE Palpatine would defeat him. He is more powerful than Yoda, arguably, by the OT - and so he is quite a bit above him in Dark Empire.

(this is to placate Spartan)

Originally posted by Escape81
Nai, I'd like to comment and say that Palpatine's duel with Mace is a lot different from the one he had with Yoda. The only thing that allowed Mace to win was his Shatterpoint ability - and then you have to take into consideration that neither of them were using the Force (until Palpatine was in such a position that the attack was useless).

Palpatine > Mace in all Force powers - and can be considered his equal in pure swordsmanship. In an all out fight, Palpatine would have defeated Mace. You know it, and so do I. Hell, Mace had a hell of a time when Palpatine was on his ass, blasting him with Force lightning.

Now, imagine if Palpatine decided to use his superior Force powers when he would be in an equal position to Mace. Mace would have died.

That said, it is unknown if Yoda would've beaten Palpatine or not - given that the disarming scene was removed from the movie (it's not canon). For all we know, Palpatine knocked Yoda back - tucked the saber away - and opted for long ranged assaults. Regardless, Yoda was forced to flee because Palpatine was the smarter fighter - and Yoda was reckless.

And, I know you haven't stated it - but DE Palpatine would defeat him. He is more powerful than Yoda, arguably, by the OT - and so he is quite a bit above him in Dark Empire.

(this is to placate Spartan)


Escape. What are you trying to do here ?

Sidious didn't also use his force powers during the fights with Luke in DE and still managed to disarm Luke once. When he uses his force powers right before the second duel, Luke is floored instantly by Sidious lightning, despite the fact that Luke had his lightsaber up already. So what ? Obviously Luke wasn't able to block force lightning - so how can he even hope to survive a full out fight against Sidious. Answer: He can't. Hence the "Luke defeated DE Sidious so he's > Yoda" is bullshit.

And sorry Escape. I told you multiple times why it doesn't make sense that Sidious would simply "knock Yoda back, tuck the lightsaber away and come up with range assaults". But just again:

1) He's never shown to use any offensive force powers while fighting
2) He only uses force powers after being disarmed
3) Yoda did still have his lightsaber in hand - the best Sidious could have done is launch a wave of force lightning against Yoda's lightsaber

Really. The script version were Yoda disarms him, then Sidious fires a wave of lightning and jumps of the Chancellors pod makes by far more sense then anything else you might suggest.

And now...if you put Yoda in that fights in DE instead of Luke (Sidious just using his lightsaber and no force powers): Do you really think Sidious could have beaten Yoda in sheer lightsaber combat ? With force powers used, he would most likely take Yoda down - but in a sheer lightsaber fight, Yoda would still defeat him more often than not.

So what can Luke - who's force powers are still rather limited in DE, and who's lightsaber skill is on par with Sidious at best - do to overcome Yoda and Revan together ? Even Yoda on his own would probably able to bring him down. Yoda and Revan combined is overkill...

Explain to Spartan that you weren't being ridiculous and implying that Yoda is more powerful than Sidious (he's not), so he'd stop complaining about it.



Luke was inferior to him. Mace and Palpatine are equals in sheer lightsaber ability. Mace won due to his singularly unique Shatterpoint ability.



So what ?

I think you're getting confused. I'm not arguing that Luke is equal to Sidious in anything as of Dark Empire (I think I've been agreeing with you thus far).

I'm saying that the fight between Palpatine and Mace would have most likely gone differently if Palpatine had brought his superior Force powers into play, instead of going into a straight lightsaber-to-lightsaber confrontation - and as I said - nothing indicates that Mace is the better swordsman. He is equal to Palpatine - and won due to his ability to sense Shatterpoints, and he was able to use Palpatine's fear against him.

Luke nor Yoda have either luxary.



My point is, Luke has done more impressive things in his short time than Yoda has in 900 years. Yoda was unable to defeat Palpatine - who, in comparison, only had 60 years of experience compared to Yoda's 900. Luke has far more raw power than Yoda, and Yoda would certainly not be able to own Luke, even as of Dark Empire.



I know. In his fight with Yoda, he was too busy trying to keep Yoda off of him. He couldn't risk opening himself up for a Force attack. With Luke, he was confident of victory.



That wasn't shown in his fight with Yoda. Nai, the "disarming" scene was cut - it isn't canon. You can infer or think what you want. Doesn't make it a fact.



Or Force pushed him against the podium - or bulled him into the side with a shove from his lightsaber. Especially when the last time we see them, they're in a saber lock.



The script doesn't say that, Nai. The script shows Sidious being disarmed, then he attempts to launch Force lightning at Yoda - who bends it back. That's where your infamous line of "it appears that the Dark Lord is doomed" comes in. But then, Yoda jumps off the pod for no reason.

So, really, I don't see how that makes sense because Yoda was limited for time. If he had Sidious vulnerable, he would have killed him.



I think it is most certainly possible, yes. I'm sorry Nai, but now it does seem if you're trying to imply that Yoda is as powerful - or even moreso - than Sidious as of Dark Empire.

One Force Storm = dead Yoda - who doesn't seem to have the power to tackle one.



Maybe I'm misunderstanding you (so don't bite my head off), but it seems to me that you're implying that Sidious would lose to Yoda in a sheer lightsaber match, but Sidious doesn't have a guarenteed victory in sheer Force powers.

Pretty poor logic to me. One can argue that Palpatine is as powerful - if not moreso - than Yoda as of ANH.

So, correction: Yoda would lose to Palpatine in a Force fight. A guy who can kill an entire batallion of Stormtroopers with a single attack (he can generate blasts that mortally wound Jedi) - and then a massive blast that can obliterate fleets.

PT Sidious can blast through the defenses provided by Yoda's lightsaber with no problem. DE Sidious would tear him up in a Force fight. I'll agree that Yoda's speed and agility would make him one hell of an opponent in a lightsaber fight, but he's screwed in a Force fight.



Yoda may - after an extremely difficult fight.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Escape. What are you trying to do here ?

Sidious didn't also use his force powers during the fights with Luke in DE and still managed to disarm Luke once. When he uses his force powers right before the second duel, Luke is floored instantly by Sidious lightning, despite the fact that Luke had his lightsaber up already. So what ? Obviously Luke wasn't able to block force lightning - so how can he even hope to survive a full out fight against Sidious. Answer: He can't. Hence the "Luke defeated DE Sidious so he's > Yoda" is bullshit.

And sorry Escape. I told you multiple times why it doesn't make sense that Sidious would simply "knock Yoda back, tuck the lightsaber away and come up with range assaults". But just again:

1) He's never shown to use any offensive force powers while fighting
2) He only uses force powers after being disarmed
3) Yoda did still have his lightsaber in hand - the best Sidious could have done is launch a wave of force lightning against Yoda's lightsaber

Really. The script version were Yoda disarms him, then Sidious fires a wave of lightning and jumps of the Chancellors pod makes by far more sense then anything else you might suggest.

And now...if you put Yoda in that fights in DE instead of Luke (Sidious just using his lightsaber and no force powers): Do you really think Sidious could have beaten Yoda in sheer lightsaber combat ? With force powers used, he would most likely take Yoda down - but in a sheer lightsaber fight, Yoda would still defeat him more often than not.

So what can Luke - who's force powers are still rather limited in DE, and who's lightsaber skill is on par with Sidious at best - do to overcome Yoda and Revan together ? Even Yoda on his own would probably able to bring him down. Yoda and Revan combined is overkill...

It is very unlikely that Yoda by ROTS could defeat Sidious by DE. If you recall, Sidious moved faster than the eye could see, but then again so could Yoda, so you'd have one hell of a fight. But this is a younger and more mobile Sidious so I would think he takes it more times than not in a pure saber duel.

Two more things

1. Why is it logical to assume that Sidious can and will use the force in a saber fight? You're saying if he did all of that nonsense against Mace, he would have won. I'm saying that because he engaged Mace in a saber duel, he automatically forfeited his superior force abilities, or was not able to use them against a powerful Jedi such as Mace. Same goes with his fight with Yoda. Sidious doesn't randomly use the force while he's in a saber battle, otherwise he would have been sliced.

2. What makes you think Sidious can pop a force storm when its 1 on 1? Yoda would have to be a good distance away for him to get swallowed by the force storm and Sidious walking away peacefully.

Isn't Sidious in a younger more agile body as of DE? I mean he may have been out of practise, but he was out of practise in ROTS too and he was still uber, pretty much on par with Yoda in saber ability. I'd say it's very likely that Sidious would take Yoda in a saber battle, and destroy him in a force battle.

My only logical explanation is that Palpatine assumed that Anakin was coming (and wanted the fight to progress long enough where he could put himself in a position to force Anakin's ultimate decision), as he did contact Anakin through the Force - and reminded him that if he died, any hope to save Padme would be gone.

That, or he got cocky enough to assume that - hey - if he could take out three Master-level Jedi in less than thirty seconds, that he'd have no problem with Mace. Arrogance is one of Palpatine's defining characteristics, though I am personally assuming that the former occured - because Palpatine knew quite well of Mace's skill as a Jedi.



No. When Luke defeated Palpatine in Dark Empire - Palpatine was the one defenseless (no lightsaber and his arm was amputated) and he still felt secure enough to launch one when he was less than a few feet away.

Luke and Leia were both present - and Luke moved just as fast as Yoda seems to do.

One could argue that Palpatine could disable Yoda (whether or not through his saber skills or through his superior Force powers), and then finish Yoda off by either skewering him or launching a Force Storm.

RotS Sidious was capable of knocking Yoda unconscious (and he did), and was also capable of overpowering Yoda's lightsaber, and disarmed him - with the Force (which he also did). Sidious grew in power and expertise in those twenty-some years, and I'd argue that he could replicate this feat - (much, much easier) and he'd beat Yoda.

Yoda'd be a problem simply due to his speed and agility. But Palpatine is, as of Dark Empire, much more powerful in the Force than Yoda.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
It is very unlikely that Yoda by ROTS could defeat Sidious by DE. If you recall, Sidious moved faster than the eye could see, but then again so could Yoda, so you'd have one hell of a fight. But this is a younger and more mobile Sidious so I would think he takes it more times than not in a pure saber duel.


How would Sidious even hit Yoda given that Depa Billaba (which bladework Mace considered to be above his own) + 2 other Jedi can't even touch him while he's dodging them without a weapon ?



The point is that we see Dooku (for example) using force lightning while wielding his lightsaber (against Sora Bulq) or force grip (the ROTS duel) while Sidious doesn't use anything like that.

It might be due to his arrogance or he simply needs to focus more on the lightsaber action than Dooku (with his one-handed style). But sometimes it irks me when a clearly superior force user goes and faces the inferior force user but possibly better lightsaber combatant in a lightsaber fight. This is like throwing your rocket launcher away and go fighting your opponent with a knife because he doesn't have any other weapon. That might be nice for a Jedi Knight - but for a Sith Lord ?



He can pop a force storm when he likes. Still the commentary in the last comic of the first DE series states that - once summoned - he's unable to control that sort of energy himself. So it's unlikely that he will use that in confrontation. Still...given that he increased his power by far he might simply deal with most people electrocuting them.


@Escape:
No. I didn't want to imply that Yoda can take DE Sidious in a force fight. I was just suggesting that Yoda will most likely take out Sidious or Luke (in their DE versions) when it's a sheer lightsaber duel due to his dodging abilities (see above) and mastery of almost unique forms of lightsaber handling (Trakata).

One thing I'll say:
The DE audiobook confirms that Leia is NOT helping Luke directly. What she's doing is clearing away the darkness of Sidious, clearing away the shadows. In other words: She made it even.
Thing was, both Palpatine and Luke went all out on eachother...the radiations of their power was so intense , it was killing people. They were even stated as 'equals, different as night and day.'
As of DE, Luke's surpassed most any Jedi who've ever lived. Just under Sidious, his powers increased threefold and he was capabe of things far surpassing Revan at least

Originally posted by Lightsnake
One thing I'll say:
The DE audiobook confirms that Leia is NOT helping Luke directly. What she's doing is clearing away the darkness of Sidious, clearing away the shadows. In other words: She made it even.
Thing was, both Palpatine and Luke went all out on eachother...the radiations of their power was so intense , it was killing people. They were even stated as 'equals, different as night and day.'

How is "making the fight equal" not helping Luke, when it was unequal in favor of Sidious before, Lightsnake. That doesn't make sense.

In the audio book, it says Leia was purely a spectator. What she was doing was blocking the darkness the Emperor's presence created.

By this point, Luke's powers are already incredible with the saber and the force

Originally posted by Borbarad
How would Sidious even hit Yoda given that Depa Billaba (which bladework Mace considered to be above his own) + 2 other Jedi can't even touch him while he's dodging them without a weapon ?
Point? We see Luke and Sidious take saber fighting with speed to a whole different level that, as far as we know, has never been mimicked. As lightsnake said, they were moving so fast and rippling with energy, people were dying besides them. So I don't understand your point considering Yoda was probably the only other Jedi that had the ability to move faster than the eye could see in a saber fight.. Oh, and Windu did it to Vastor I suppose but not on the level of Luke vs. Sidious.



The point is that we see Dooku (for example) using force lightning while wielding his lightsaber (against Sora Bulq) or force grip (the ROTS duel) while Sidious doesn't use anything like that.
The only time we see anybody using the force during a saber fight is when Dooku did it in ROTS. Now what makes you think it would work on a powerful force user such as Luke, Yoda, Sidious, Windu, etc?




@Escape:
No. I didn't want to imply that Yoda can take DE Sidious in a force fight. I was just suggesting that Yoda will most likely take out Sidious or Luke (in their DE versions) when it's a sheer lightsaber duel due to his dodging abilities (see above) and mastery of almost unique forms of lightsaber handling (Trakata).

I find it unlikely that by Luke or Sidious by DE, couldn't take Yoda. By DE the speed of Sidious and Luke are unlike anything Yoda has ever dealt with.

Hmm. I kinda get what Nai is saying. Yoda's experience, speed, and agility would make him one hell of a problem. He pulled circles around Dooku in Attack of the Clones - and he was able to dodge those three Jedi in Shadow Hunter. But, Nai, in Revenge of the Sith, we saw that Sidious was easily on par with Yoda in terms of speed and agility - and he's the only one to date that has done that.

I'd say that Sidious could also have performed quite well against those three Jedi - in terms of evading them.

Yeah, Sidious's sheer speed and agility by DE is rather amazing.

Originally posted by Escape81
Hmm. I kinda get what Nai is saying. Yoda's experience, speed, and agility would make him one hell of a problem. He pulled circles around Dooku in Attack of the Clones - and he was able to dodge those three Jedi in Shadow Hunter. But, Nai, in Revenge of the Sith, we saw that Sidious was easily on par with Yoda in terms of speed and agility - and he's the only one to date that has done that.

I'd say that Sidious could also have performed quite well against those three Jedi - in terms of evading them.

Sidious is not on par with Yoda when it comes to speed and agility, Escape. Yoda is still jumping around like a mad muppet during their duel , while Sidious is holding the superior position. Sidious just turns around to meet Yoda's attacks or strike at him. You could as well say that Dooku was on par with Yoda when it comes to speed and agility - doesn't make much sense.

From what we've seen in the movies and what is said in the EU nobody was on par with Yoda when it came to speed, agility or lightsaber ability. I can't even count how often people admit that Yoda is vastly superior to them including Mace (Shatterpoint) and Dooku (Dark Rendevouz) in force and lightsaber use.

Simply have a look at the scene in ROTS when Obi-Wan and Yoda are fighting the Clone Troopers in front of the temple. You see 6 or 8 people firing at Yoda with semi-automatic blaster weapons and he deflects every single shot even multiple shots in the same moment. That's by far the fastest lightsaber action you can see in the movies and quite the skill display considering that Luminara (a Soresu master) stated that even she would be unable to deflect blaster bolts from two different ankles at the same time.

@Lightsnake:


Again Lightsnake: If somebody actively participates in the fight - by blocking the Darkness of Sidious presence - how can she be a spectator at the same time. It doesn't make sense.



They are ? Where ?

Originally posted by Borbarad
Sidious is not on par with Yoda when it comes to speed and agility, Escape. Yoda is still jumping around like a mad muppet during their duel , while Sidious is holding the superior position. Sidious just turns around to meet Yoda's attacks or strike at him. You could as well say that Dooku was on par with Yoda when it comes to speed and agility - doesn't make much sense.

From what we've seen in the movies and what is said in the EU nobody was on par with Yoda when it came to speed, agility or lightsaber ability. I can't even count how often people admit that Yoda is vastly superior to them including Mace (Shatterpoint) and Dooku (Dark Rendevouz) in force and lightsaber use.

Simply have a look at the scene in ROTS when Obi-Wan and Yoda are fighting the Clone Troopers in front of the temple. You see 6 or 8 people firing at Yoda with semi-automatic blaster weapons and he deflects every single shot even multiple shots in the same moment. That's by far the fastest lightsaber action you can see in the movies and quite the skill display considering that Luminara (a Soresu master) stated that even she would be unable to deflect blaster bolts from two different ankles at the same time.

@Lightsnake:


Again Lightsnake: If somebody actively participates in the fight - by blocking the Darkness of Sidious presence - how can she be a spectator at the same time. It doesn't make sense.



They are ? Where ?

Nai, this is DE Sidious and by DE, Sidious is at his peak, or may not even be at his peak. But with his vast force knowledge and agility/mobility, he moves just as fast as Yoda, or even faster, and in a lightsaber duel. So he is at the very least on par with Yoda in terms of speed.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Sidious is not on par with Yoda when it comes to speed and agility, Escape. Yoda is still jumping around like a mad muppet during their duel , while Sidious is holding the superior position. Sidious just turns around to meet Yoda's attacks or strike at him. You could as well say that Dooku was on par with Yoda when it comes to speed and agility - doesn't make much sense.
He's also managing to fend Yoda off and by DE is certainly lots faster


Pretty much because Yoda rocks


Because she's not participating in the actual duel, simply counterminding the outside forces if the best explanation I can give.

And Luke's skills, in DE's narraration are stated as 'formidable'...by rhe end with Sidious, they're incredible, godlike, titanic, etc.
Hell, in the preceeding books, he's able to wipe out an entire group of Dathomiri witches while resisting force lightning, two years prior. This before he gets training with Palpatine that triples his power.

Yes, he is, Nai.



Palpatine was quick enough to kill two Jedi Masters before they could react (and before Mace could), was quick enough to engage Kit Fisto and Mace Windu in combat simultaneously - killing Fisto, despite Mace's presence - and then went on to put Mace on the defensive, forcing him out of the private office.

So, he's faster than Dooku and Mace.

He was quick enough to meet all of Yoda's attacks, and wasn't bombarded by it. He's quick enough, then, to counter all of Yoda's assaults and keep up with him. He's apparently quick enough to evade Yoda and put quite a bit of distance in between the two of them, because Sidious is already in pod-mode just as Yoda flips off the podium.

No, Nai. You're wrong. Sidious is as fast as Yoda. The commentary even states that (the fight) was supposed to be "faster than the others".



In the Darth Maul Journals, Sidious is instructing Maul in lightsaber combat - and reveals his own. He then proceeds to outline Maul's very form, and Maul himself comments that had he (Maul) moved a muscle, he would have been sliced apart. The crimson from Sidious's blade also remains in the air for a few seconds, before disapating.

That alone would put him on par with Yoda.



Dooku never (to my knowledge) confesses that Yoda is better than him, in anything. In Attack of the Clones, he believes that he is more powerful than Yoda. In Dark Rendezvous, he believes that they're equals. In Labyrinth of Evil, he continues this line of thought - despite being defeated by Yoda twice (once on Vjun - a Dark Side infested planet).

Mace only comments (again, to my knowledge) that Yoda is superior. How superior and by what isn't apparent. Yoda isn't leagues above Dooku or Mace in anything.

Isn't Yoda leagues above them in the force? I thought he was, since in Shatterpoint when Mace can't move that thing with the force he states that Yoda would do it with one hand, while he couldn't do it at all. And he pretty much toys with Dooku when they are having a force duel.
Of course, my knowledge of their abilities isn't really that great, so what do I know...

Originally posted by kamikz
Isn't Yoda leagues above them in the force? I thought he was, since in Shatterpoint when Mace can't move that thing with the force he states that Yoda would do it with one hand, while he couldn't do it at all. And he pretty much toys with Dooku when they are having a force duel.
Of course, my knowledge of their abilities isn't really that great, so what do I know...

He is above them (Dooku and Mace), yes, but by leagues? Doubtful.

Ok how much is a league? Cause from what Mace said and what we saw in AOTC, Yoda seemed to toy Dooku (forcewise) and complete something with ease that Mace did not handle at all...

Escape, if Sidious was indeed faster than Mace, he would have beat him, so don't say he's faster just because he engaged him in combat along with 3 others. You fail to realize Mace's mobility and speed is severely compromised when he has 3 other Jedi masters right next to him. Don't forget Mace took 6 stabs at Kar Vastor faster than Vastor could see.

Ah, I see. I suppose then, in sheer speed, that Obi-Wan Kenobi must be a mile ahead of General Grievous - who could swing twenty strikes per second.

I forgot that speed is the deciding factor in a duel. I have to review my Revenge of the Sith, where Grievous slaughters Kenobi and continues to lay waste to Uta - oh wait. . . Grievous lost, didn't he?

Damn.



Palpatine butchered two members of Mace's four-man team before Mace could do anything. Fifty percent of his crew died a horrible death. Then, Palpatine went balls first into a showdown with Kit Fisto and Mace Windu - outmaneuvering them both - and killed Fisto. Whoops. That fifty percent turned into a seventy five percent mortality rate.

Palpatine was also quick enough to put Mace on the defensive, forcing him out of the private office.

Oh in that case, I guess Sidious IS faster than Mace when he beats him.. Oh wait..

palp is a lot faster than any Jedi in the academy plus very powerful...

And yet was beaten by Mace...

my point exactly

maybe it was un purpose cuz he knew anakin would come to save him

No, that's an unconfirmed rumor. He was arrogant, he underestimated Mace Windu, and was simply overpowered.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Oh in that case, I guess Sidious IS faster than Mace when he beats him.. Oh wait..

Ah. Let's go through it again. Speed is not the deciding factor in a duel. It is important, yes, but not the single most important. Anakin, for example, was stronger and faster than Obi-Wan - but was unable to defeat him in combat.

Once again, General Grievous is far faster than anyone - in sheer speed and reflexes. Obi-Wan may be lucky to make a single strike per second, whereas Grievous has no trouble making twenty strikes per second - calculate the difference. It's dramatic.

And yet, Grievous was unable to defeat Obi-Wan. Doesn't mean that Obi-Wan is faster.

Get my point? Hope so. Because it's very obvious.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No, that's an unconfirmed rumor. He was arrogant, he underestimated Mace Windu, and was simply overpowered.

it was vapaad stated in one of the sources which refelected palpatines own hate against him causing him to be beaten.
vapaad is the most useful swordplay against a very angery opponent, especially darksiders

Vaapad formed a loop between them. Shatterpoint was the scale tipper. Not Vaapad. Mace's Vaapad just made the fight even.

Originally posted by Escape81
Ah. Let's go through it again. Speed is not the deciding factor in a duel. It is important, yes, but not the single most important. Anakin, for example, was stronger and faster than Obi-Wan - but was unable to defeat him in combat.

Once again, General Grievous is far faster than anyone - in sheer speed and reflexes. Obi-Wan may be lucky to make a single strike per second, whereas Grievous has no trouble making twenty strikes per second - calculate the difference. It's dramatic.

And yet, Grievous was unable to defeat Obi-Wan. Doesn't mean that Obi-Wan is faster.

Get my point? Hope so. Because it's very obvious.

You're still missing the point. You're speculating that ROTS Sidious is faster than Mace. But Mace was able to land 6 blows on Vastor without Vastor being able to see it. That's a little more impressive in terms of speed than Sidious beating 3 supposedly powerful Jedi, and then getting floored by 1.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Vaapad formed a loop between them. Shatterpoint was the scale tipper. Not Vaapad. Mace's Vaapad just made the fight even.

o.o? sry to ask a dumb question but what is this shatterpoint exactly

His ability to see flaws in situations and techniques

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You're still missing the point. You're speculating that ROTS Sidious is faster than Mace. But Mace was able to land 6 blows on Vastor without Vastor being able to see it. That's a little more impressive in terms of speed than Sidious beating 3 supposedly powerful Jedi, and then getting floored by 1.

You'd think if he could do that, though, he'd have stopped Palpatine before he butchered his allies.

Originally posted by Escape81
You'd think if he could do that, though, he'd have stopped Palpatine before he butchered his allies.
You'd think if Sidous was faster than Mace, he would have either taken him out first since he was the most powerful, or at least done a better job in a 1 on 1 fight.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You'd think if Sidous was faster than Mace, he would have either taken him out first since he was the most powerful, or at least done a better job in a 1 on 1 fight.

Not so.

Consider - the Jedi were prepared anyway. It would have been more practical to dispense with the minor problems before focusing on the major one. Windu is no pushover. To attack him first would have been to battle him while the other three would be able to attack him.

Palpatine did the smart thing. He killed the three minor Jedi - and then focused on the main one. He killed two of them before Mace could do a thing - then fought Fisto and Mace simultaneously, outmaneuvered them, and killed Fisto.

Kudos, though. Now, do me a favor and explain Mace's logic.

Originally posted by Escape81
Not so.

Consider - the Jedi were prepared anyway. It would have been more practical to dispense with the minor problems before focusing on the major one. Windu is no pushover. To attack him first would have been to battle him while the other three would be able to attack him.

Palpatine did the smart thing. He killed the three minor Jedi - and then focused on the main one. He killed two of them before Mace could do a thing - then fought Fisto and Mace simultaneously, outmaneuvered them, and killed Fisto.

Kudos, though. Now, do me a favor and explain Mace's logic.

And yet again you've failed to explain how this proves Sidious was faster than Mace, especially with 13 years out of practice. Again, if Sidious was faster than Mace, then he would have at some point floored Mace, unless Mace>all 3 of those Jedi at the same time. Or it's more logical to assume that Mace didn't have the room to work with when he had 3 Jedi beside him, as opposed to him having all the room in the world when it was 1 v 1. Either way, there's nothing to suggest Sidious is faster than Mace.

I see. I respond to your point, but you - instead - refuse to respond to my point (Now, do me a favor and explain Mace's logic.) and try to evade it.

I'll respond to yours once you be courteous and answer me.

Mace's logic in regards to what?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Mace's logic in regards to what?

If Mace is as fast - or faster than the Emperor - why did he not kill Palpatine, especially when Palpatine was pre-occupied with the others. Hell, if Mace was that good, he could have killed Palpatine when he was fighting Fisto.

I've provided a logical explanation as to why Palpatine didn't go after Mace first. I expect the same.

Yet you've failed to provide the explanation you set out to provide initially. You have failed to provide how Sidious is faster than Mace. I have given you a logical reasoning for why he ISNT faster than Mace, which you threw back at me as a counterargument why Mace isn't faster than Sidious. In either case you proved my point, if Sidious was faster than Mace, he would have killed him in a 1 on 1.

Lol, and, you refuse to respond again. All right. I'll just take that as a sign of a simple fact: you can't refute it. If you can, then do it. If not, consent that you're wrong.



Is that right?



Lol, which means - no matter what - Mace isn't faster than Sidious. The best you can hope to argue is that they are of equal speeds. And, your "logical reasoning"? Hardly. I believe I refuted it - and left it for you to respond to.

Which you didn't.



Speed is not the defining factor in a fight!

a. General Grievous (who is faster than Mace) was unable to defeat him in Labyrinth of Evil.

The faster opponent lost.

b. General Grievous (who is faster than Obi-Wan) was unable to defeat him (or even come close) Obi-Wan in lightsaber combat in Revenge of the Sith.

The faster opponent lost.

c. Anakin Skywalker (who is faster than Obi-Wan) was unable to defeat him in single combat.

The faster opponent lost.

Three examples that shove your point of "faster = victory" back in your face. Grievous could hit twenty strikes per second. Obi-Wan couldn't get close.

Hell, by your logic - Grievous could wipe his ass with anyone. But, guess what? He can't.

Palpatine proved his speed. He killed two of Mace's allies before Mace or Fisto could do a damn thing to stop him. He then proceeded to engage Mace and Fisto in combat (both of them at the same time) and killed Fisto - while fending off Mace.

Furthermore, the only reason that Mace won is due to Shatterpoint.

Refute it. Otherwise, don't bother responding.

Lol, which means - no matter what - Mace isn't faster than Sidious. The best you can hope to argue is that they are of equal speeds. And, your "logical reasoning"? Hardly. I believe I refuted it - and left it for you to respond to.

Which you didn't.
Actually I stated that Mace could be faster than Sidious for the same reason Sidious could be faster than Mace, while you're trying to tell me Sidious was faster than Mace, when realistically they are equally fast, which you still refuse to accept apparently.



I]Speed is not the defining factor in a fight!
Nobody said it was.. What are you talking about?



Palpatine proved his speed. He killed two of Mace's allies before Mace or Fisto could do a damn thing to stop him. He then proceeded to engage Mace and Fisto in combat (both of them at the same time) and killed Fisto - while fending off Mace.
Ok? And Mace proved his speed against Kar Vastor? What in the world is your point? YOu've still yet to come up with an argument for Sidious>Mace in terms of speed.. I'll be waiting..

"Nobody said it was.. What are you talking about?"



Actually, you did. You said that if Sidious was indeed faster than Mace, he would have won the battle. That could pretty much be described in that way ^

Originally posted by kamikz
"Nobody said it was.. What are you talking about?"



Actually, you did. You said that if Sidious was indeed faster than Mace, he would have won the battle. That could pretty much be described in that way ^

Rofl. There you go. Outside parties are telling you the same thing.

Thanks DS. I'm not going to be responding to your points when you pick and choose which ones of mine to respond. You will respond to mine, fully, before I return the favor.

Pay attention. You haven't been for quite a while in our debates. I'm getting sick of it.

Originally posted by kamikz
"Nobody said it was.. What are you talking about?"



Actually, you did. You said that if Sidious was indeed faster than Mace, he would have won the battle. That could pretty much be described in that way ^

The whole argument was Escape saying Sidious is faster than Mace.

Originally posted by Escape81
Rofl. There you go. Outside parties are telling you the same thing.

Thanks DS. I'm not going to be responding to your points when you pick and choose which ones of mine to respond. You will respond to mine, fully, before I return the favor.

Pay attention. You haven't been for quite a while in our debates. I'm getting sick of it.

And what point are you waiting for? The point of me explaining you that it's more than logical that Sidious and Mace are equal in speed? Or you want me to respond to your ridiculous idea that Sidious is somehow faster than Mace?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
And what point are you waiting for? The point of me explaining you that it's more than logical that Sidious and Mace are equal in speed? Or you want me to respond to your ridiculous idea that Sidious is somehow faster than Mace?

You're entire argument of "Sidious isn't faster than Mace" is because Sidious was unable to defeat Mace in lightsaber combat.

- I have provided three examples of battles where the faster opponent loses. I suggest you take notice of them.

This blows your theory of "the fastest opponent wins" to hell and back. Even Kamikz noticed that you were basing the whole thing on Mace's victory over Sidious in their lightsaber duel. Then, you deny it - and contradict yourself. Remember that whole argument we got into last month, about you blatantly contradicting yourself, and third parties came in and even pointed it out? This is a repeat case.

- I have provided a logical reason why Sidious didn't engage Mace first in their duel, and why he opted to kill the three lesser Jedi Masters. You have yet to provide any proof as to Mace's superior speed. If he were faster, he would have been able to WTFpwn Sidious when he was preoccupied with killing Mace's teammates.

- I have provided the fact that:

a. Mace and his team of Jedi were already prepared and armed if things came down to a fight to the death. Hence why they ignited their lightsabers first.

b. Palpatine was quick enough to kill two of Mace's team before Mace could react. Half of his team died before he could do anything to react.

c. Palpatine was quick enough to engage Mace and Fisto in combat simultaneously (he was fighting them both), outmaneuvered them both, and then killed Fisto - putting Mace on the defensive.

- I have also provided the fact that Mace wasn't even better than Sidious in sheer lightsaber combat. The only reason he won is due to his Shatterpoint gift. Meaning that, as far as we know, Mace = Sidious in sheer saber skills.

It is now your burden to provide proof.

Originally posted by Escape81
You're entire argument of "Sidious isn't faster than Mace" is because Sidious was unable to defeat Mace in lightsaber combat.

- I have provided three examples of battles where the faster opponent loses. I suggest you take notice of them.

This blows your theory of "the fastest opponent wins" to hell and back. Even Kamikz noticed that you were basing the whole thing on Mace's victory over Sidious in their lightsaber duel. Then, you deny it - and contradict yourself. Remember that whole argument we got into last month, about you blatantly contradicting yourself, and third parties came in and even pointed it out? This is a repeat case.
Ah wonderful post.. "Well you know dude, you did this this and that x number of years ago, so take note". Bravo Escape. Add the fact that you think that because the faster opponent lost on a few occasions, this is somehow a good argument for Sidious being faster than Mace. Beautiful. Let me try your logic now, meaning I will give a few examples of when the faster opponent won and then proceed to parade around saying "I blew you theory out of the water".. Dooku was faster than both Obiwan and Anakin in AOTC, Yoda defeated Dooku twice I believe, Anakin defeated Depa Billaba, etc. Omgz, I listed 3 fights, that must mean I trumped YOUR Theory!!!

- I have provided a logical reason why Sidious didn't engage Mace first in their duel, and why he opted to kill the three lesser Jedi Masters. You have yet to provide any proof as to Mace's superior speed. If he were faster, he would have been able to WTFpwn Sidious when he was preoccupied with killing Mace's teammates.
Holy shit, talking about dodging the focal point of the argument. Nobody was EVER arguing why Sidious didn't engage Mace first, so stop wasting text. And youre telling me that because Mace didn't defeat Sidious, he's slower than Sidious? But when I say Sidious is slower than Mace because he didn't beat him, you start throwing around the "speed isnt everything to a duel"? Double standards much? Not to mention again, nobody argued this point.


b. Palpatine was quick enough to kill two of Mace's team before Mace could react. Half of his team died before he could do anything to react.
See the Kar Vastor line for the millionth time.

c. Palpatine was quick enough to engage Mace and Fisto in combat simultaneously (he was fighting them both), outmaneuvered them both, and then killed Fisto - putting Mace on the defensive.
Ahh I gotcha escape, but you perhaps forgot about how Dooku was easily able to combat Anakin and Obiwan simultaneously, then lose to Anakin alone. I'd say that alone trumps your 'Theory'.

- I have also provided the fact that Mace wasn't even better than Sidious in sheer lightsaber combat. The only reason he won is due to his Shatterpoint gift. Meaning that, as far as we know, Mace = Sidious in sheer saber skills.
Uh, Mace having that shatterpoint ability makes him better in regards to lightsaber fighting. I guess Anakin and Obiwan were both equals too and Obiwan had the unique ability of 'patience'.

It is now your burden to provide proof.

"Number of years ago"? Try a month or so.

That wasn't part of my argument, anyways. It was just proof that you have, for the past month, been misconstruing your opponent's arguments and have blatantly contradicted yourself - essentially "we all know you've done it before" - and so it is an obvious explanation to what's happening now.



Here's the problem:

As Kamikz has proven, my friend, you are arguing that "the faster opponent wins" - when this is clearly not always the case. Because it is not always the case, it doesn't apply. Your entire point has collapsed, because I have provided instances in which the faster opponent has lost.

Furthermore, is Count Dooku faster than Obi-Wan and Anakin in Attack of the Clones? Not really. Far more precise, skilled, and experienced - yes - as well as just plain old more powerful but not necessarily faster.



Mm-hmm. And, yet, I found this posted by you on this thread:

"You'd think if Sidous was faster than Mace, he would have either taken him out first since he was the most powerful, or at least done a better job in a 1 on 1 fight."

Read that. Carefully. You've contradicted yourself. You've lied. Pay more attention.



Here's the difference. I am saying that, if Mace were quicker, he would have been able to defeat Sidious while he was pre-occupied butchering the others. I'm not saying that in a personal duel that he should've won if he was faster, but that he should have been able to while Palpatine killed Kolar and Tinn.

But he didn't. Sidious moved faster than Mace could react. It isn't a double standard. And, yes, you argued this point.



A fine achievement. But this isn't a fist fight. Mace's speed in Shatterpoint clearly isn't the case with his Revenge of the Sith skills - making this either:

a. Only apply to a fist fight.

or b. Shatterpoint is contradicting the movies, making it non-canon.

I expect you to argue Palpatine's lightsaber skills during TPM. But, notice, that he is thirteen years out of practice. His skills would have likely taken quite a dip - anyways. But, as it stands, he is still fast enough.



Easily? Not so. He had to take Obi-Wan out of the fight because the duel was anything but easy. Anakin won because, as the fight progressed, he grew stronger. Meaning that the Anakin at the end of the duel was more powerful than the Anakin at the beginning of the duel.

You've trumped nothing.



You've confused yourself.

Depa Billaba, by Mace's confession, is superior to himself in sheer bladework. Does that mean she can take him in an all out fight, especially when he has his Shatterpoint ability? Unlikely.

Mace and Sidious are equals in terms of sheer swordsmanship. That ability doesn't make him better. It just gives him an advantage that Palpatine can't easily counter.

Furthermore, lol, Obi-Wan and Anakin weren't equals in anything - save possibly for Force skill. But, even then, Anakin's raw power so greatly surpasses Obi-Wan's that it isn't even funny. Obi-Wan won only because of his patience, defensive skill, and understanding.



And I have.

Originally posted by Escape81
As Kamikz has proven, my friend, you are arguing that "the faster opponent wins" - when this is clearly not always the case. Because it is not always the case, it doesn't apply. Your entire point has collapsed, because I have provided instances in which the faster opponent has lost.
Here's the problem with that logic. You are using that as your main argument for why Sidious is supposedly faster, while I'm saying that faster opponents have won, and have lost, therefore you've proven nothing, especially Sidious' superiority to Mace in speed.

Furthermore, is Count Dooku faster than Obi-Wan and Anakin in Attack of the Clones? Not really. Far more precise, skilled, and experienced - yes - as well as just plain old more powerful but not necessarily faster.
That point is moot, what's your excuse for Yoda vs. Dooku?



"You'd think if Sidous was faster than Mace, he would have either taken him out first since he was the most powerful, or at least done a better job in a 1 on 1 fight."
Which was a direct response to you saying because Sidious tooled 3 average Jedi, he is automatically faster than Mace. This of course isn't a valid argument because his "speed" against the 3 jedi was not enough to overwhelm Mace.

Here's the difference. I am saying that, if Mace were quicker, he would have been able to defeat Sidious while he was pre-occupied butchering the others. I'm not saying that in a personal duel that he should've won if he was faster, but that he should have been able to while Palpatine killed Kolar and Tinn.
And here's my point for the millionth time. You have no basis on your argument stating Sidious is faster than Mace because he caught Mace off guard. Are you saying Mace expected an uber powerful sith/saber fighter, just like that? He could have easily been caught off guard, but this somehow makes Sidious faster all of a sudden? Again I revert to my previous point. Dooku was able to take Obiwan and Anakin in AOTC and ROTS, but he was not able to take Yoda, or Anakin alone. A huge reason would be the amount of room you have to work with. Mace had 3 Jedi in his path that he had to deal with. It's like saying you have 2-3 double lightsabers on one side of the fight, without slashing yourself. There are many reasons as to why Mace couldn't do the job, but one of them is NOT because Sidious is faster. Mace was able to finish the job by himself with more room, but he didn't have enough room in the office and/or was caught off guard, simple as that.


A fine achievement. But this isn't a fist fight. Mace's speed in Shatterpoint clearly isn't the case with his Revenge of the Sith skills - making this either:
Uh as far as i'm concerned, he used the force to augment his speed, and there's nothing suggest he couldn't use that same speed in a lightsaber fight, after all being the top dog.

I expect you to argue Palpatine's lightsaber skills during TPM. But, notice, that he is thirteen years out of practice. His skills would have likely taken quite a dip - anyways. But, as it stands, he is still fast enough.
There's no point in arguing Sidious' abilities if he did train those 13 years because we don't know how much better he would have gotten. For all we know he reached his peak in TPM.



Easily? Not so. He had to take Obi-Wan out of the fight because the duel was anything but easy. Anakin won because, as the fight progressed, he grew stronger. Meaning that the Anakin at the end of the duel was more powerful than the Anakin at the beginning of the duel.

You've trumped nothing.
Anakin got stronger and had more room to operate rather than having Obiwan right next to him.

All you have argued is that the faster opponents win. That's it. I've proven that they don't always win. It renders your point obsolete, and you can no longer say "If Sidious were faster, he would have won".



No. The point isn't moot. I can't help it that your points are ineffective. The term "moot" is used if the point is useless or doesn't apply. Dooku won in Attack of the Clones because he was simply more powerful - not necessarily faster.

And, Yoda was more powerful than Dooku and faster.



Doesn't matter. You argued it. Then you went back and said "no one did".

You contradicted yourself. You need to pay attention instead of argue blindly and without logic.



Mace Windu is the second most powerful Jedi in the Order. According to you, he hit Vastor six times. He's not easily off his guard, especially if he had his lightsaber ignited and prepared - he knew what Palpatine was. Palpatine was simply faster.



He expected a fight. He expected a duel. He even ignited his saber first. He had ample time to prepare - even when Palpatine stood up and prepared his blade and tossed off his one liner.

He's not easily off his guard. Once again, you have no point.



And I have addressed this.



Mace couldn't react in time. Palpatine moved faster than he could keep up with.

And, once again, the only reason he won is that he had time to access Palpatine's Shatterpoint.



Mace or Palpatine? They both used the Force to augment their speed. As do Yoda and Dooku.



Um... that's my point. His skills dropped from TPM to RotS - hence why he is slower than what was described in TPM.



Anakin won because he got stronger as the fight progressed. Sorry. Dooku took Obi-Wan out of the fight because he was beginning to lose - and had to use the Force to take one of them out.

Anakin then defeated him because he grew more powerful than Dooku.

And after all that you have YET to prove Sidious is faster. Stop saying my points are ineffective or illogical when you can't give a single shred of logical evidence that Sidious is somehow faster. I can and will argue that if its a 4 on 1, the mobility of the 4 is severely limited, which would be an explanation as to why Windu didn't finish Sidious, even if he was or wasn't caught off guard. Your whole argument is "Well he dispatched the 3 average Jedi, so he MUST be faster than Mace". Bravo

We're done arguing, DS.

You seem daring enough to disagree with me, but not so much as to back up what you say. Notice the entire paragraph above your little prattle. I responded to your points. And, for the third time, you refuse to address my counter-argument, but still wish to persist in saying "well, I'm right".

Wrong. You're not. You've lied and contradicted yourself - once again, succeeding in only making yourself foolish because you refuse to pay attention .

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
And after all that you have YET to prove Sidious is faster. Stop saying my points are ineffective or illogical when you can't give a single shred of logical evidence that Sidious is somehow faster. I can and will argue that if its a 4 on 1, the mobility of the 4 is severely limited, which would be an explanation as to why Windu didn't finish Sidious, even if he was or wasn't caught off guard. Your whole argument is "Well he dispatched the 3 average Jedi, so he MUST be faster than Mace". Bravo

My friend, your points are ineffective and illogical. I've countered them all, and have done (apparently) a good enough job that you don't want to go back and refute my points.

So, don't whine and complain simply because you make blatant contradictions and I don't play you're game of "instead of consent that my opponent has made a point, dodge points and refuse to agree".

When you can grow up, we'll talk. In the meantime, I'll see if Advent or LS agree with me - and if they do - maybe then they can try to get it through your head.

for the last time, you can ***** and moan and cry in the post, but at the very end you have NOT proved anything. Just because you say you've countered or proved them doesn't mean anything. And you're still talking about the point I'm supposed to refute? You mean that Mace is faster than Sidous? Because I ever said that? You've wasted pages asking me to prove something I've never stated to begin with. And for the millionth time, Sidious beating 3 JEdi doesn't automatically make him better than Mace. I have given logical points as to why Mace didn't finish Sidious, just because you refuse to listen to them doesn't mean I'm stubborn or missing your points or waa waa...