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Multiple wormholes have been open in both universes connecting the boundaries of the 40k universe and the Starcraft universe. Both of thier goals are simple. To destroy the otherside, and take thier universe from each other.

Who shall be victorious?

Really now, I have no idea where to put this. The Game versus thread does not want such a post despite the fact that moderators had tolerated a thread a while back posted by looldude which i am not allowed to post up due to my status as the new guy.

I do have a few...........too many nitpicks with that particular thread.

Like for example:
if it was on the dark protoss homeworld then they could activate the temple and blow every Warhammer 40k ass licker to oblivion
Really now, that all depends on the forces being deployed. A Ramilles class cruiser, or hell, even a small cobra class cruiser could just simply bomb the temple from orbit. And the weakest ship projectiles on an Imperium ship are basically hypernuclear energy. Or simpler yet, a psyker could simply mind fry every single being within the Temple.


Clearly this one does not know the rate of evolution applies for Tyranids as well, in one instance of a skirmish with Tyranid ships(as big as a few kilometers mind you) The First day of the fight the Imperial Navy used conventional bombs on those monstrosities. The second day, they simply bounced off thier hides, so they pulled off lances on them, The third day, NOTHING worked....
Tyranids are not puny. No sir not at all. Carnifexes simply outsize any Ultralisk and will kill any Ultralisk outright(If I recall, there claws have been known to rip through adamantium), And the Tyranid hive mind, is so much more advanced. Tyranids outnumber the Zerg 100 to 1 spread out through the galaxy and yet manage to control all of them, and unlike the SC overmind, its not dead. Also, hydralisk are food for well, just about any tyranid unit. There weakest creature, the hormogaunt has been known to rip through steel with thier bare claws. And gargoyle broods are gonna eat through any guardians.


I guess this guy doesnt know. Every single frigate class ship or higher in warhammer has the ability to depoplate a planet with simply there conventional weapons. it's even worse for Space Marine class ships, as Space Marine battle barges have been known to just simply outright destroy the planet. I have yet to see any Terran battlecruiser pull that off with its yamato cannon.


It's actually quite simple. Sensors, have been known to detect stealth units. Built into a Space Marine helmet or most other infantry systems. And besides, psychics in Warhammer 40,000 are the most decked out things ever. Some have been known to simply drive entire cities mad by thinking it. So if all those minds could be detected in such a large radius, whats a stealthed dark templar to them as they could just easily lock onto thier psychic signal and fry thier brains?

Actually, too many things can survive a protoss carrier. Space Marine striker cruisers, Apocalypse class battleships, Tau vessels, Kroot warspheres, Battle titans, Revenant titans, Leviathan hive ships, the list goes on actually.

I think Protoss alone Wins They are Simply To good!! They have Shields on every units. and they are stronger than A regular human.
Very low settings of shields mind you. The conclusion of saying shields=instant vulnerability is simply just an unfortunate fallacy. And 40k has a big bad tendency of having oh so many things decked out beyond normal human beings. Hell, Cadian Imperial Guard has been so harshly trained that they are pushed to the extreme limit. And Space Marines, oh dear god the Space marines! Thier movements are described as so fast that they appear as a blur to the eyes of humans. And not to mention that they have been known to drink concentrated poisons and feel nothing. And then theres that matter of there acid saliva..........

secondly the Carnifex is nothing compared to an ultralisk,
There has been an instance where a Carnifex managed to kill a Land Raider with one single swipe of its crushing claws. And land raiders have a moderately thick adamantium layer in thier hulls. Hell, Adamantium is pretty much a standardized material used in Imperium grade weapons.

1. Tyranids are eating DNA all over the galaxy at a rather alarming rate.
2. If you look back at this post I mentioned a certain skirmish between the Imperial Navy and a tyranid fleet. Such evolution does not require DNA blueprints.


You see, the problem is with that occurance is that the Protoss, had actually had to gather a rather large number of ships to destroy the planet, which took days to complete. A single Space Marine battlebarge has been known to destroy a planet in less then an hour. Oh and by the way, some other ships have been known to destroy a sun with thier guns. Oh and Necrons would have no reason to destroy a planet if its populated. They would just want to harvest the poor souls living on that doomed rock.

Not a demon. That was his trusted son, and the Emperor was hoping to find some good in Horus so the Emperor refrained from attacking. Horus toyed with him and did all kinds of things, such as turn the Emperors acid into blood. And when Horus vaporized a terminator just by looking at him, the Emperor saw that there was no good in him and instantly had him killed in an instant with unparalleled psychic energy.


Not to sure about Tyranids. But I know Imperial titans have thier own anti air systems built in, and also, docks for fighter and bomber ships.

I'm well aware of Burning Thought's concession later on in that thread. I just had to use more specific events for a more proper rebuttal.

Is the Void Dragon, the Outsider, Nightbringer, Deciver and Abaddon on WH40k's side?
If so WH

yup there all there in Warhammer.

Abaddon w/ Void's power is probobly the most powerful.
He destroyed all the other Stargod's abnd than the God's of Chaos.
He is the most powerful force in the universe (at the end)
No way a Starcraft being can match that.

Warhammer 40K would completely own Starcraft.

Starcraft nut's are fools.

The Necron would own them by themselves adding over races is just overkill

You kidding?

Starcraft gets raped.

warhammer

Dark Eldar alone have the power to take down all of Starcraft

Yeah, Gods suck ass.

*kicks a rock*

I used to play Warhammer (the real one with the models, not on the computer) and i've played Starcraft. I'll go through the races that were present when i stopped with 40K;

Space Marines; humans with a dozen extra organs, amazing weapons, super armour, brilliant training and devistating ships and tanks. They're armoured deathbringers.

Chaos; same as the Marines, but with some nasty psychic abilitys and some devestating leaders, Abadon is digustingly scary.

Imperial Guard; indervidually weak, the men dont get much armour or particularly good weapons, but in numbers...they can come up with the goods. They have some tough as hell tanks, some big artillary and some inspiring leaders.

Eldar; fast, deadly, clever. Their leaders are 20 steps ahead of the best warriors on the feild, they have ships that move like blurs and carry weapons that dissolve everything. Much like the IG, they're not that tough, but they make up for it with their tech and their speed.

Dark Eldar; all the good bits of the Eldar (the speed, the tech and the intelligence) but with some more devistating weapons designed to shred bone, disolve troops and obliterate tanks. They have some tough, nasty characters and great power weapons for taking on armour.

Necrons; up there with the scariest army to mess with, they have strength in small or large numbers, even the lowliest warrior has a weapon that can tear a tank appart, slow moving but devestating tanks and the ability to just stand back up when killed. Can go toe to toe with any army in all aspects.

Tau; weak troops but AMAZING guns, their bristling with things that go bang and more than happy to use them. They can lay down walls of long distance, powerfull and damn accurate fire. Once they're in close combat they have a tendency to break and run, but thats where the Kroot come in, wirey, tough hand to hand masters. Kinda a mix of Tyranids and Orks but with a beak. Not the people to mess with.

Tyranids; these were the guys i least liked to fight. Their shooting is rubbish and they're not all that tough. But they're fast, lord how they're fast. They have venom sacks, they have claws that rend through armour of most thicknesses. The Carnifex is like a armoured wall with claws, the Hive Tyrant is a killing machine. The genestealers scare the hell out of any close combat troops. They devour all the DNA they come near and evolve new ways to kill.

Orks; ah the orks, i spent alot of money investing in these fellahs. They can't shoot, their not fast, their vehicles disolve under light fire and they're stupid. Why do i love them? They're tough. When they get into combat they can kill nearly any foe with their axes and cleavers. They have some of the most fearsome characters in the universe, Ghazghull Thrakka is huge, tough as hell & strong as a dozen men. Their dreadnaughts are nasty as hell, they have brilliant strenght, their weapons are actually pretty good and they're tough.
When i used to game i played the Tau i managed to get into combat in a couple turns and destroyed the whole army in 2 turns.

I look at these armys in comparison to the Starcraft and they dont have much that can stop the WH40K armys.

I agree with this a hundred percent. But you guys forgot some of the more specialized units. Such as the Grey Knights, Death Watch and the Legion of the Damned. Then you have the Terminator squads which are super tough. I believe that the Ultra Marines 1st Company which was mostly Veteran terminators stopped the Tyranids fleet Behemoth.

But In reality all you would need to beat any star craft foe is a legion of space marines and all would fall in front of the Angels of Death. gunsmilie

When a game gets too complicated with graphics and controls, it fails to be fun anymore.

That's why I like StarCraft. The graphics are great for what the game needs, controls and structures are simple, I just have to worry about having fun, rather than how to do 200 things at once.

I don't think that Dawn of War is any more complicated then star Craft. Just better Graphics and well better everything

Depends on who was playing what armies on what sides. If I had each of the three armies from Starcraft, Terran, Protoss, and Zerg, and a large enough map, a building of each kind to start with ... Then I could pretty much obilterate any WH40K army, cuz I would Starcraft for long, long periods, and figure out how to utilize each unit to its strongest ability, with Zerg's ability to hide under the ground, and they can be set to release when I want them too. Also if everything is upgraded for all of the races... then I could take down any WH40K army.

Originally posted by Vim
Depends on who was playing what armies on what sides.
Thats the first problem. Game mechanics usually mean squat as they do not truly represent any of the units capabilities and nor does it represent real time combat in any way.

Do you actually know anything about Warhammer 40,000? Every single race in Starcraft is a pale imitation of any faction from Warhammer 40,000 in just about every single way that can be thought of. To just give you a taste of the crazy things on the WH440k side


Space Marines:
-Possesses standard guns called bolters which are semi automatic rocket launcher that can turn an unarmored human being into a mist of blood and guts
-tanks which can resist GIGAJOULES of concentrated energy
-Battleships that can destroy a planet in under an hour with conventional weapons.
Tyranids:
Trillions of masochistic monsters in just one fleet, eating every single planet in there path
-kilometer sized monstrosities in space, capable of traversing through the warp
-Genestealers able to cut through adamantium with there claws
Chaos:
Single bloodthirster or daemon prince capable of destroying all life on a single planet.
Planet killers able to dish out 2e38 joules of energy!(minimum energy to kill a planet is 1e32 joules)
Imperial Guard:
-Hordes of soldiers that would make the zerg look small in comparision
-Lasguns able to penetrate 3 meters of concrete(also arguably the weakest weapon in 40k)
-Variety of battle tanks meant for all kinds of purpose of fighting ranging from the smallest Sentinel to the over the top Baneblade and Stormhammer.
-Kilometer sized ships also able to destroy an entire planet
-Nova cannons located on said ships which fire office builing sized projectiles with moon sized explosions
Thiers more but I want to make this quick.



The problem is with starcraft against WH40k, is that even if you do find a way to use it to their strongest ability, you would find that their strongest ability is not enough to decimate any 40k force.


In no way is that an advantage to a Tyranid army. Unlike the Zerg who remained burrowed in one spot, the Tyranids tend to actively tunnel thier way through the planet going where they want to from under the ground. And then theres the mention of psykers(warhammer 40,000 uber psychics able to turn you inside out by whispering a syllable) they could simply detect any number of zerg from a city away.

Even with said upgrades you would still have nothing against 40k.

Hey sounds like you know your WarHammer, I wasn't meaning anything incredibly serious by this, plus it seemed to get you stirred up a bit! Heh, heh... I see you have made a valid point. It doesn't seem very likely that these two franchises would ever see any kind of match up like this ever so .... we could go on guessing about who would win what, but does any of it really matter in the end?? Besides I'm saying in total game universes... You can be surprised what you can do when you know how strategize, especially after gathering up all the info on here about all the "planet destroying ships" which it seems kind of pointless to bicker about two franchises that would never face off, especially when one has such a weapon... Right?

I was doing a little research on the back round of Star Craft, and to me the size of all the planets is only maybe a hundred for all the races. Now in Warhammer 40k the Imperium is so vast and so so immense, and operates so slowly, that whole departments of it still service agencies which no longer exist and worlds dead for thousands of years. Now thats just one of the races.

Those of you who are Star Craft fans and not 40k fans take a peak at these. They are the back rounds of the races and gives histories and other goodies.

Star Craft - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StarCraft_universe#Koprulu_Sector


Warhammer 40k - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warhammer_40%2C000

Starcraft would clearly win. So many worlds in the 40k universe are undefended by anything more than a imperial guard militia.

The 40k universe wouldn't unite, because of the intrinsic hate between the Empire, Eldar and co and the forces of Chaos. In fact, they'd probably take advantage of the suprise attack to take out each other, allowing the Starcraft posse full reign in the universe.

There'd be no worries for a Protoss battle group if they were going to take down a Chaos Prince.

Originally posted by Trickster
Starcraft would clearly win. So many worlds in the 40k universe are undefended by anything more than a imperial guard militia.

The 40k universe wouldn't unite, because of the intrinsic hate between the Empire, Eldar and co and the forces of Chaos. In fact, they'd probably take advantage of the suprise attack to take out each other, allowing the Starcraft posse full reign in the universe.

There'd be no worries for a Protoss battle group if they were going to take down a Chaos Prince.

Trickster!! Remember me?? I remember you buddy, gosh I think you were on here before I got here. I've seen lots of your posts around, you seem to be pretty cool guy. Anyway, its been like 5 years since I've posted anything on here. But I'm back!! And I've been making waves as you can see. The thing is I played the miniuature (sp?) game awhile back and it seemed to be a great leeway into the RTS realm especially on PC or the like. But anyway, the variables between these two games are too high to actually have them battle one another. Blizzard created Starcraft as an RTS game firstly and then may have went into greater details later... But my statement still stands that if I were given certain things with the Starcraft armies, I could still whoop any WH40K army.

The imperial guard them selves could take all three of the civilizations in starcraft. If it takes a whole protoss battle fleet to take out one Chaos Prince then you guys are in real trouble. Do you guys even know much about the 40k universe. There is no unit that I have heard or seen in the Starcraft universe that could even contend with an Imperial Titan let alone actually going up against one of the thousands of space marine chapters, or like I said before the imperial guard that is made up of billions upon billions of soldiers. Star Craft is not even in the same league... Simple as that....no2

Originally posted by Trickster

An attack on any Imperium world would ignite the coming of any small Imperial fleets(which is already more then what SC would be able to handle)

40k has absolutely no need to unite. The Imperium alone measures in quadrillions upon quadrillions of people. That already more then the entirety of Zerg, Protoss and Terran combined. Terrans were a what? 23 billion Empire according to their propaganda? Zerg measured in the low end trillions at best?


All those guys have been at war for how long? A few hundred years? You want to wait a few hundred years to even think you can start any attack on 40k?



Daemon Princes can pretty much wipe out half the planet single handedly. Any Protoss group is gonna crap in their golden pants when going against daemonic powers.

Warhammer 40k - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warhammer_40%2C000

Better show them this link Robby.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Weapons_and_Equipment_of_the_Imperium_%28Warhammer
_40%2C000%29
rundown of the weapons of the Imperium in 40k. its also a fun read for 4okers themselves.

Okay its agreed then that Starcraft is no match for Warhammer 40K... Let's just say that for argument's sake, okay so what other universe of "army-like" stuff would be?? ... Any takers ... givers?? Whatever...

You're asking what other universe would be a match for theirs?

Yeah, yeah, what other universe of "army" type things would be a match for Warhammer 40K. Because apparently the people that created teh Warhammer series just went above and beyond to make sure that NOTHING was anywhere close to being equal to it. Which makes sense when you think about what war would be like in the year 40,000... Starcraft isn't based off our technology starcraft is a whole new thing. WH40K is like what it would be like around here except 40,000 years into the future.

I say that SC is alot less far fetched then 40k. And armies that can do something to 40k would be something like Total Annihilation. A single peewee projectile is the equivalent of a 1 kiloton nuke. You hear that? PEEWEE!! Then theres the mention that they managed to consume a galaxy in 4000 years, only to meet adequate resource demand! And thats NOT including resources needed for a war....

dude the Black Templars (a specialised chapter of Space Marines) would kurb stomp the entire starcraft universe BY THEMSELVES (yes they are that badass)

In inquisitor a space marine can take a frag grenade, pull the pin out, swallow the grenade, throw the pin and kill a man, and not even suff indegestion from the grenade goung off in his stomach
TOP THAT STARCRAFT

oh and that is just a 'normal' marine

Starcraft gets raped to hell. This is like an iguana vs. Godzilla

Starcraft gets raped, just the sheer size of the Warhammer 40K universe says it all, but considering the Terran + Protoss are on good ground an alliance between the two could prove some challenge to the Warhammer 40k universe but starcraft still probably ends up losing, but on another note, Starcraft is a better overall game.

Starcraft is inarguably the most balanced rts made for the pc, considering all the different aspects of the game, it is unrealistically balanced, I dono if you my drift ? :P

Only a fool would even bother comparing these 2 games on a mass unit scale, not gameplay or any other elements.

1. They are 2 different games for 2 different reasons
2. Different times (What the heck, Warhammer has advanced technology over Starcraft, get over it)

Compare them on a review. and who wins? Starcraft obviously
as it is ridiculously balanced, complex and simple at the same time.

this is not an opinion, for Starcraft is the most popular RTS game so far.

Damn, I registered on this forum, when found that topic (accidentally), only to add a reply on it .

Well, I must admit I am a StarCraft fan, and I play it almost since it was released. My knowledge about WH40k universe is much lesser, but still quite considerable.

I would say that StarCraft races would probably lose, but this result is not so certain, and even if they would've lost, it wouldn't be a slaughter. Many WH40k fans underestimate SC races (often showing, that they know little about them), while overestimating those of WH40k universe.

On the start, that this comparision is a nonsense from the start. Any comparision between two universes, created for different purpose, by different people, basing on completely different ideas, is a nonsense.
Firstly, take a look at the timeline of those two universes. The first one takes place after year 40 000 - it is obvious, that all races should be powerful and have many planets under their influence. And Starcraft? It's plot starts basically in... 2499 (destruction of Chau Sara). In such "young" age, those races are already powerful - try to imagine, what powerful would they be after over 30 000 years of development? Seeing, that they are already introducing new technologies after only a few years of war (new units and abilities), I suspect, that they would be much stronger, than all WH40k races alltogether. But, of course, I'm only guessing.

Another thing is notoric overestimating of WH40k races, and telling about all those technical miracles, that appear to be just a big bullshit, when saw in the battle (table top or computer games), or when just analyzed. Space Marines' power armour. A magnificent piece of technology, that can resist most weapons... and yet it is easily penetrated by a primitive axe or cleaver, yielded by Orcs. Like I said - bullshit. Not to mention the Terminator armour, that is always described to be "virtually invulnerable", and yet it is easily penetrated by... claws (Genestealers). Man, is that a joke?
Bolters. Basically rocket-launchers, that (as someone said) will turn unarmoured human into a mist of blood and guts. Somehow many Imperium's enemies take a little or no armour at all into battle (low-level Orcs, Kroot, Vespid, certain Chaos units like Cultists, etc.), and they survive that. When you play Dawn of War, you can see, that even a burst of Bolter projectiles is unable to kill single Kroot, that does not only wear any armour, but is even naked. Another joke?
Imperial Navy's weaponry. Someone described it, that weakest projectile of it has a hypernuclear firepower (BTW what class of weapon do they have? Fusion cannons? Plasma? Beam cannons?). That's really shocking, but... where is that huge firepower, when I see the arts, movies, battles in the computer games? Any ship from WH40k universe, that is of an equal size, can engage Imperium battlecruiser, and fight for quite long. Then I'm asking, how is it, that all Imperium's vessels' guns have firepower bigger than an a-bomb, and yet they cannot destroy another ship with a few shots? Take that cinematics from Fire Warrior (poor game, ofc, but is stilled based on universe created by guys from GW, and signed by them), where a battle between Tau ship and Imperium ship lasted for few hours. If humans of the future would have such firepower, everything would take minutes, at most.
Fairy tale about Space Marine swallowing a grenade is so stupid, that I don't have a nerve to comment it. THAT is a very poor joke. Why someone won't tell me about an SM flying in the air like Superman? God, help me...

What is the basic problem with the "realism" of WH40k universe? That they make up so goddamn-bloody-unbelievably-incredibly-powerful technological miracles, and then forget about them, once we launch Dawn of War or decide to play on table top. What's the point? Of course, I listen to all those lies, but I make a silent contract between me and guys from GW. They say "let us make up incredibly powerful weapons for races in our universe, so that all this war stuff would look really astonishing, and try to believe it". And I agree. I believe. I believe, that bolters can turn human being into a bloody mist. I believe, that guns of Gothic class battlecruisers are powerful enough to destroy an entire planet. I believe all this, and I don't argue, although I see, that those are lies, when I play games released by Games Workshop. I tolerate it, because all this stuff is great anyways.
But I won't tolerate using all those lies as arguments in such discussion. Especially when WH40k is compared to the universe of the game, that I love most.


And about StarCraft races... in this case, many arguments of WH40k fans made me laugh.

Psykers. Everybody keep telling me, how tough they are, that they could simply fry Protoss' brains and see, where Ghosts are (and fry their brains too). In either case, it is a total bullshit. A human psyker, frying mind of a PROTOSS? On the one side we have a person, that is gifted and powerful, but still is just a primitive human, and on the other side an effect of millions of years of evolution, far superior to human, that does not only have psionic powers... but, in fact, is a being, that is MADE by psionic power? And you try to tell me, that this primitive human, which is but an ignorant is case of psionics, would simply fry a bunch of beings far superior to him? Yeah. Sure. Another joke.
Next joke is connected with Ghosts. Psykers may try, but they won't feel them. Detecting Ghosts by psionic powers is impossible. That is because they are implanted with psionic inhibitors, that "lock" the access to their minds, and make them invulnerable to the attempts of "feeling" them or reading their thoughts.

Someone mentioned, that void is the most powerful force in the universe... did anyone know, that void, is a force, that is used by Dark Templars from StarCraft? Thanks for giving me an argument!

Imperium of Man, that "will win, because its population is quadrilions of quadrilions of people". And I just ask: SO-DAMN-WHAT? How many of those quadrilions are Space Marines? Wait, I remember - one milion. One milion! Another joke today! All, that Imperium can dispatch, is one million of soldiers in power armours, while Terran Dominion itself has a few millions of soldiers with such equipment (bah - EACH Terran soldier has power armour!), along with hypersonic rifles, powerful enough to penetrate the Adeptus Astartes power armour. I even don't count Imperial Guard, because these guys are ridiculous with their bulletproof vests. They would be slaughtered by Terran infantry - a SINGLE shot from Gauss rifle in the stomach, and Guardsman is down. Basilisks, Hellhounds, Baneblades, and other vehicles? Terrans have their Siege Tanks, that are beasts. Not to mention the Ghosts. One lockdown on Baneblade - and it becomes just a target for practice shooting. And there are people here, so naive, that IG would take down all SC races. On their own, they wouldn't be able to endanger even single Dominion.


Another thing, is that you only compare the firepower of the races. The weapons from StarCraft are weaker, of course. But races from SC also possess many special abilities, that would nullify the firepower of the Imperium and others. Psykers? Bring in a Science Vessel, launch EMP shockwave, and guys are useless. Predator tanks? Dreadnoughts? Bring in Ghosts and lock them down - and they are worth shit, just like Psykers. They would be helpless, taken down one by one. Imperium battlecruisers' firepower? Use Defensive Matrix, and Behemoth class battlecruiser would have enough time to use its Yamato cannon, and bring the enemy down. Bunch of Space Marines? Single Psionic Storm, and they are all fried within a seconds. I can give a lot of such examples. A fleet of Imperial battleships? Use Arbiter, cloak all Scouts and Carriers, and they are helpless. A few special abilities from StarCraft, and brute strenght of WH40k races is worth shit.

Another thing, is that all three races' arsenal gives them quite considerable chances in the fight. Behemoth class Battlecruisers with their Yamato guns. Yes, they can't destroy an entire planet with it. And I ask once again: SO-DAMN-WHAT? The firepower of Yamato gun is huge enough to destroy entire battleships with single shots. Even Protoss vessels, protected by shields, are brought down by them. What chances do Gothic class battlecruisers, not protected by shields, have? If only Terrans would have the advantage in numbers - e.g. there are 12 Imperium cruisers, while Terrans have 15 Battlecruisers - the Imperium fleet is in big trouble, they would be destroyed one by one by Yamato gun shots. Defensive Matrix, mentioned earlier, would give Behemoths time to load these guns - and then, all Imperium vessels are space dust. Even their "hypernuclear projectiles" won't help them.
What? That Terrans don't have many ships? Look at the UED campaign outro and see that fleet above Char. It is just one third of an expeditionary force sent to Koprulu. And that whole expeditionary fleet was an ANT, compared to all UED's power. And UED is not the only one Terran faction in SC.

Zerg vs. Tyranids. Yeah, Tyranids are greater in numbers, but that doesn't mean, that Zerg wouldn't be able to overwhelm them in a single battle. When Psi Emmiters were used on Antiga Prime, and Tarsonis, there were enough Zerg to cover the both planets, like bloody carpet. WHOLE. And to fill the entire orbital space. And yet, it was only a small part of an entire Zerg Swarm force.
Another thing is that the Tyranids wander in space, and thus their recources are a bit limited. Zerg, on the other hand, set hatcheries on the planets, and are breeding new soldiers fast. It could appear, that Tyranids, when they would try to invade Char, for example, they would deal casualties to the Zerg slower, than the Zerg could regenerate them.

A few more things, that I couldn't have written yesterday because of the post character limit exhaustion. And my own exhaustion .

Originally posted by doan_m
And the weakest ship projectiles on an Imperium ship are basically hypernuclear energy.

Checked it. And it appears, that you are lying. Ships of Imperial Navy, besides of truly devastating weapons such as Lances, have completely standard weaponry such as laser cannon batteries, missile launchers, plasma turrets, rail guns, and so on. So the weakest projectile of Imperium ship (laser or missiles) ISN'T hypernuclear energy.

Behemoth class Battlecruiser is armed only with its laser batteries, but if it is one of standard weaponry used by Imperium, it could deal at least light damage to the Imperium ships. Of course - too light, but there is still Yamato Cannon, that has a firepower of a thermonuclear warhead. Not to mention the aid of Science Vessels (and its Defensive Matrix) again, that give Behemoth Battlecruisers additional chances.
Sure, Terrans would probably lose, but... would it really be a massacre? I'm not so sure. Especially that Imperial Navy strike forces, as far, as I know, are much smaller in numbers, than those usually sent by Terrans (Dominion or UED) that consist minimum of -teen Behemoth class Battlecruisers, along with Wraiths and Science Vessels. And Valkyrie frigates - if we talk about UED. As far as I know, Space Marines' actions often include a few ships only. In Dark Crusade, they had only one battle barge. Surely, its firepower is devastating, but if five Behemoths launch their Yamato Cannons at it, it's dust anyway. In one of Space Hulk scenarios, I heard about three Gothic class battlecruisers, dispatched in order to contain the threat. Three only.

Originally posted by doan_m
Or simpler yet, a psyker could simply mind fry every single being within the Temple.

This is a bullshit, that I commented yesterday. And idea of primitive (even if gifted) human, frying mind of a being, that is superior to him, is out of the map.

There is, BTW, another nonesense of this comparision - quite different view of the same force (psionic) in those two universes. And that's not the only one case, when guys from GW and from Blizzard imagine the same power in completely different way.

Originally posted by doan_m
Actually, too many things can survive a protoss carrier. Space Marine striker cruisers, Apocalypse class battleships, Tau vessels, Kroot warspheres,

OK, now you're really kidding.
A crude ship, created by primitive race, should survive the attack of a Carrier, loaded with Interceptors (with pulse cannons) and Scouts (with ANTI-MATTER missiles)?

I think my opinion here isn't rational, as I am a fan of StarCraft... but it seems, that you are a FANATIC of WH40k, that makes your opinions even more irrational and even more ridiculous.

Originally posted by doan_m
You see, the problem is with that occurance is that the Protoss, had actually had to gather a rather large number of ships to destroy the planet, which took days to complete. A single Space Marine battlebarge has been known to destroy a planet in less then an hour.

Another sign of ignorancy in StarCraft lore. Destruction of Chau Sara, Mar Sara and Antiga Prime, was a matter of MINUTES, not days. The reasons, why Protoss didn't destroy all planets in a few days, are completely different, than problems with gathering the fleet (it was gathered already).

And here's another problem of logical nature and another reason, why this whole comparision is nonesense from the start. Protoss warships have enough firepower to evaporize the planet and cut through it, right to its core - and yet Terran ships survive firepower of this magnitude, and are able to fight Protoss fleet. So, in this case, what argument it is, that SM battle barge can destroy an entire planet, if it seems, that Behemoth class Battlecruisers can repel that firepower? Think about it.

And if Protoss ships can destroy a planet, too, and what's more, they have additional plasma shields, so what is it, that makes Imperial Navy ships far too powerful for them? Your own fanatism?

Someone said, that maybe StarCraft races have no hope in space, but are deadly on the planet's surface. Well, yeah, I must agree with this, a bit. All three races have devastating ground units, and special abilities, that could nullify the numbers of Imperial Guard, or firepower and toughness of Space Marines. Planetary battles with WH40k and StarCraft races, could be quite interesting.
In the case of space conflicts... well, it is as I said. Terran fleet is not so technologically advanced, but has certain trump cards, thay may give it some chances in fight against any WH40k race. Protoss fleet, with its devastating firepower and plasma shields (not to mention Arbiters' cloacking field and their ability to "freeze" an entire fleet), is however quite tough enemy even for Imperium. Zerg have no advanced technology, but attack in overwhelming numbers, making them almost as deadly, as Tyranids (especially, when they fight on their land, where they can breed additional units extremely fast). And their Scourges, is truly a scourge for all flying/space units.

Ah, and maybe one another thing. That connected with Vim's question. What other universe could fight that of WH40k? I have few ideas.


I think one of such universes is (as it seems from my posts) that of StarCraft. I say again, that I COMPLETELY do not agree, that StarCraft would be "raped", as someone so nicely said, or destroyed easily. No, I won't say, like some persons did, that StarCraft would easily win, but it would have considerable chances in the fight against any WH40k race. Maybe those chances would be smaller in the space, but on the planets' surfaces, the forces of StarCraft races are deadly, even for Space Marines.


Another thing - Total Annihilation, another not-thought-through "argument" of doan_m. Thirst thing, that eliminates Total Annihilation guys from this competition, is the fact, that they don't have any starfleet at all. This means, they are helpless against any WH40k race, that could just bomb it from orbit. Even Terran fleet, that you see as so fragile and weak, could just bring in some Behemoth class battlecruisers, and launch Apocalypse class nukes from orbit, destroying everything.
Next - single Pewee projectile has a power of 1 kiloton nuke? Yeah, sure. I don't know, where did you get that from, and I frankly don't care (even if it is an official fluff from Cavedog's webpage), but it's another bullshit, worthy all those "technical miracles" (miracles - literally) from WH40k. I see, that you are, I beg you pardon, one of those guys, who can only mindlessly repeat, what they've heard, but cannot analyze it by themselves. That "1 kiloton nuke" is probably added only so it would sound cool, but is, in fact, one big bad joke. Pewee projectiles don't seem to have such power at all - and not because of the fact, that it is weakest ARM unit. Such projectile, when launched and exploded, has certain power of blow, that must be 'released' somewhere, in form of a strike wave. There is no other option. Projectile, that has a power of 1 kiloton nuke would cause a massive blow. And a whole bunch of them - bloody massive blow, decimating everything around. Does Pewee's weapon make such effect? No. Not at all. Nothing. Zero. Null.
So that "1 kiloton nuke" is one big lie, another bullshit today. Neither during the game, nor in the cinematics, Pewee does show anything, that would prove, it is a true. Like I said - that was said only to sound cool, nothing more.
Total Annihilation ground forces are pretty cool, but, in fact, primitive, making this whole vision of future warfare a bit out of the map. Such advanced civilization uses primitive a-bomb, although we today already know reactions producing more energy, than nuclear ones (the sun!). Complete lack of starfleet (mentioned earlier), although battles are taking place on many planets (there are some kinda gateways, but this is not an explanation). Aeroplanes can fly only up to 144 meters per second (fastest one), while the sound speed is 340 meters per secons - they are slower than temporary aeroplanes (those from the old good planet Earth of today, are a few times faster than sound is). Another thing, is that rapid development of aircraft and rocket weaponry caused the disappearance of battleships (naval) and big cannons. Those anachronisms still function in TA.


Well, then what other universe could fight that from WH40k? I have one idea - that of Dune (no... not that from computer game "adaptations", but from Frank Herbert's novels). It is around year 10 000, and yet they still could successfully engage any WH40k race. There are hundreds of colonized planets, too, quadrilions of people. There are elite military formations of carefully selected, perfect killers - imperial Sardaukar of Corrino House (dear God, each one of them was - as it was said - able to slay ten Landsraad soldiers single-handedly) or Fremen Fedaykin from Arrakis (even more deadly, than Sardaukar!).
Among technical miracles from Dune universe, there is one special, that would make all firepower of WH40k races TOTALLY useless. What is is? Local force field generators. In spite of Protoss plasma shields or Terran Defensive Matrixes, they neither 'run out' in time, nor can be penetrated, when heavily shot - they simply repel any (ANY - literally - ANY) attack, except for those slow ones - those dealt with the most primitive weaponry such as crude ballistic guns or close combat weapons.
They are most dangerous, when you try to use lasers against it - then they cause sub-atomic fusion, killing both defender and the attacker.


Another idea (although I'm not too sure of it) is the universe created in old Lensman novel series (written by E.E. 'Doc' Smith). I don't know much about it, but I know, that they form great (in numbers of planets and population) civilizations too, and they have starships of enough firepower to destroy the planet. And there are also those Lenses - artifacts given to the younger races by local Ancients (Arisians), that hold great powers.


I'm also arrogant enough to suspect, that races of the universe made up by me (for my amateur SF writing) could engage WH40k universe races, at least a part of them. A bit.

Warhammer 40k FTW


And in the case of the Imperium v the Terrans,

if we exclude the variances in technology for a moment, the Imperium has WAY more manpower at their disposal than the broken Terran.

Humans using Protoss technology is irrelevant to the argument.
You are missing the point. It is highly on the technological side because its THAT particular kind of technology that facilitates in the weaponization of Protoss psionic energy into a coherent blade. Its an enhancer that can be akin to power armor(modern world) in the sense of enhancing user abilities. The fact that that Zealots normally require to have those forearms/amplifiers in the first place is a testamant to that fact. Fenix himself normally uses said crystals in combat to focus his energy. Had it been psionics, then they would certainly not be required to mount those wrist units on there person.

Pauldrons is the word you are looking for. And gaps in armor,mean sections of the armor that well... are not. Like joint areas to facilitate movement. Its natural and its to be expected for any armor in general because otherwise the wearer wouldn't be able to move.

You are of course making the assumption that the properties of fictional plasma are similar to that of real life plasma. Something I pointed out against.
You don't get more straightforward then the categorization "plasma fuel"
And much like Starcraft Plasma, do not possess the same traits as real life "millions of degrees" plasma that we know about.
Same goes for Doom 3. NOT the same traits as real life plasma. As I have mentioned before, its merely a buzzword in fiction and the only way to judge it is on what kind of properties it possesses exclusively in its own respective universe. Unless of course, someone out there actually has a realistic portrayal of plasma in science fiction.
Promethium generally doesn't have have any evidence inside the material. It could however be a natural oxidizer on its own.
Technically no. However considering that the kind of ship that these Patriarchs can be found in along with its genestealer kin, a boarding action would be more ideal in neutralizing the threat. After all, even when a ship does get blown up there will still be sizable chunks of the ship left for the patriarch to stay in and survive in, even in the vacuum of space itself.
It goes something like this. The Koprulu sector is a huge focus of attention not just because its the Terrans mainstay sector, but also because of the relative size of the Terrans and the UED in general. Which is apparently an empire of 23 billion+. Significantly smaller than the 40k equivalent of humanity. And for 40k its NOT a few star systems. They've got nearly millions of worlds out there. Some of them Hive World containing hundreds of billions of people.

And there in lies the problem. If the relevant Terran colonies are so close together that they can actually respond within sufficient time then it is of little wonder really why they can field a fair number in a reasonable number of time. Because the relevant territories that are actually covered are quite closely knitted together. Space craft in 40k however are capable of travelling thousands of lightyears in a matter of days(Rogue Traders: Slave of Darkness). Now while warp travel in general can be inconsistent, it isn't wildly so that thousands of lightyears within days can't be considered a norm.
Thats right. 5 ships is also a fairly small number. While resources are limited, the ships still do travel in groups.

In all liklihood it was a really special case. And nothing here indicates that it was 20-30 wiped out. In general, 20-30 marines wiped out in a single engagement would be considered a massive catastrophe by marine standards. Space hulks are also different depending on size and resistance. So I don't think this can be used as a meaningful average.

Nasty situations are common in 40k yes. But the REALLY nasty situations are saved for marines. And while warfare generally does run the risk of the marines getting killed, losses are generally very few with kill ratios highly in the marines favor.

There is a definite hint in DoW that a good number of them are sent, however we can't use those ingames squads as an idea as to just how many. We can however accept that they were sent into such a large priority situation.


This comes down to preference as to how resources are used. With 40k, they need to produce something that is relatively cheap, and fast to produce for most of the lower common denominator of guard units. Even then though such cheap units are still sufficiently advanced enough. This should naturally be expected as most industrial forge worlds need to produce something fast enough to meet the constant demands that perpetual warfare with a galaxy full of enemies would create.

Hardly. They are just very unusual to say the least.

They don't have to be. Most Tau, or Kroot drives are very different to the Imperium. With the Imperium, they drive straight into the Warp and screw around. With the Tau and the Kroot on the otherhand they choose to merely skim the surface(safer but slower) to get to places.

In the hands of Orks its generally hard to tell. A gestalt psychic field that lets you believe whatever you want to believe will do that. It is however sufficient enough to be considered a heavy weapon by 40k standards, if we are to exclusively go by whats seen in the DoW intro.

No we are talking about the SC Universe in general. Had i been talking about SC1 then I wouldn't even dare cite novels.

Just wanted to point out a couple of fluff things.

First, the Imperium in 40K is VERY slow to react. The reason they don't board Hulks with countless troops is simply because they take too long to get there- the navy is extremely slow. The Marines (with their own ships) are the rapid reaction force.

Secondly, it was always endemic to the plot of Space Hulk that there was something of value aboard the Hulk. Else they would indeed just blast it to pieces.

Thirdly... Space Hulks are exceptionally rare.

And tools, means that something can be obtained with enhanced user efficiency and performance through a particular piece of technology that helps them obtain an ends to a means with something that makes the process easier. The fact that they need to actually utilize said tool in the first place is already evidence to the fact that for most of the zealots, they need those forearm units.



See above



Except than it wouldn't be called Plasma fuel anymore. Plasma Fuel implicates that the means of the energy supply is the plasma itself.



Except I have yet to see anything that would give reasonable evidence to such a theory in the first place. Unless of course, Plasma in Starcraft is nearly identical to just really hot fire.



It still does not mean that they would be on the same scale(or nearly identical) to 40k.

1 technically. Depends on the hulk itself as "space Hulk" is extremely ambiguous as it could mean the difference between a 1km monstrosity to a 7km monstrosity. However with Tyranids you'd much rather be sure that you kill the damn thing in person.





Considering what exactly did happen on Kronus(its not every day that 6 other factions contest who shall claim the planet) and the secrets that it held(Blood Ravens do after all seek knowledge of the past of their own chapter) its hardly surprising.



hundreds of thousands of systems. And they do have a massive industrial system. Enough to actually dedicate entire worlds to producing military goods.


And while they certainly do, one should keep in mind that the technological state of all of 40k is not entirely symmetrical. Oh yes and the guard number is in all likelihood a lot bigger than billions.


You are of course not mentioning the local Planetary Defense Force(separate from the guard) that also has to be supplied with military assets as well.


When one considers the constant influx of troops and the number of casualties that can occur within a single day of galactic wide fighting, its natural to go for the goods that are faster to produce in that kind of hellish universe. The guard may not get power armor, but 40k is sufficiently advanced enough that something like a Lasgun(The AK-47 of 40k) can be produced for extremely cheap.




While the Guard may not get sufficient infantry assets, they do however have the privilege of receiving better armored fighting vehicles than what the Marines have. They are after all, entitled to requisition the superheavies if they have to.



Why in the hell would we bombard them with nukes

This is of course, again making the assumption that the enemy doesn't fire back, doesn't move to contest your ground, doesn't have air assets to contest the skies, or for that matter doesn't have tactical and strategic means of fighting back. And considering that the Tau that usually does back up the Kroot, they will have those assets. I also seriously doubt that any of this would work on warspheres.


Assuming of course that the Tau they fight with are not present at all.


In 40k yeah they sure are. But apparently they've got steeds that can shrug off plasma rounds just fine. >_>


I am already fully aware of them. It hardly changes my point. Especially on the point of superior firepower and numbers in favor of 40k.



In what?




With psykers within the regiments of the Imperial Guard?




The Tyranids behave differently than the Zerg do. What the Tyranids do, is consume every single living thing in its path along with every natural thing that facilitates living. It drinks the oceans, the atmosphere, the grass etc etc. They basically consume every single thing down to the last cell until the world itself is just nothing but a barren atmospherless rock. In other words: The Tyranids have refueled at the gas station.




Getting there asses kicked naturally. Just remember, not all of those 50 days were not actually open fighting. The way the Tyranids function, they generally prefer to infiltrate whatever planet they are on first and create genestealer cults to butter up the planet, even if its a relatively small backwater agriculture world like Dalki Prime. IIRC, it was only one single drop pod that actually had went into the planet and from that one seed, had spread until the 1.5 million hive ships had arrived to consume the entire planet.

Had the nids gone in with a standard assault without the goal of refueling and just to slaughter the local populace, then of course it would have taken a signficantly shorter amount of time.



The Imperium hasn't defeated them at all. Generally speaking.

To the point that it rivals Tyranid evolution?




And the Zerg are on par with the Tyranids? Really now, one of the things that really make the Tyranids so deadly is not just the fact that there attack forces are significantly larger then the millions that the Zerg would field planet side, but also because they can block off communications and sever warp travel into and out of the planetary system.



Imperial ships have nearly instantly rechargable shields that allow them to reach full power again in nearly no time flat.


Based on what evidence?

And if it was actually portrayed as such then it would be acceptable. While written fluff where they just simply state it can be acceptable, known feats are better which is really the point i'm going at with that. Like in 40k, where there are actually demonstrated feats of teraton to even petaton level firepower in various novels.





Depends on what you are using as the basis of measurement. With the cavedog official sources, 1 kiloton is hardly surprising.



Unlike most warfare, TA resources are theoretically not limited, meaning that they can simultaneously fill the demand for a sufficiently land based force AND a naval force at the same time.

Originally posted by doan_m
Except than it wouldn't be called Plasma fuel anymore. Plasma Fuel implicates that the means of the energy supply is the plasma itself.

Hardly. Naming a ship "battlecruiser" or "auxiliary cruiser" does not mean, that they are truly cruisers.

Originally posted by doan_m
Unless of course, Plasma in Starcraft is nearly identical to just really hot fire.

Not really. Plasma is also used in cannons of AAV-5 Arclite Siege Tanks, and their successors, Crucio Siege Tanks.

Originally posted by doan_m
And while they certainly do, one should keep in mind that the technological state of all of 40k is not entirely symmetrical.

Well, I may agree here. The greatest problem for Terran/Zerg/Protoss is fighting Imperial Navy, because land forces are not that powerful.

Originally posted by doan_m
You are of course not mentioning the local Planetary Defense Force(separate from the guard)

Thought it is a division of Imperial Guard.

Originally posted by doan_m
While the Guard may not get sufficient infantry assets, they do however have the privilege of receiving better armored fighting vehicles than what the Marines have. They are after all, entitled to requisition the superheavies if they have to.

Yeah, but not all of those vehicles are so devastating. Sentinels and Hellhouds have considerable firepower, but are futile and don't have really good armour (at least they are destroyed very easily in DoW, even if you don't have much heavy weaponry). Only Leman Russ is truly resistant and can suffer massive damage. Well, there are Baneblades, too, but how many are there of them per regiment? Basilisks are typical mobile cannons, so it is hardly surprising, that their main feature is firepower, not armour.

Originally posted by doan_m
Why in the hell would we bombard them with nukes

And why wouldn't we? Air strikes would be enough?

Originally posted by doan_m
And considering that the Tau that usually does back up the Kroot

I'm talking only about the Kroot, not Kroot-Tau alliance.

Originally posted by doan_m

Originally posted by doan_m
Assuming of course that the Tau they fight with are not present at all.

See above.

Originally posted by doan_m
In 40k yeah they sure are.

Guys, that consume the flesh of their fallen enemies, and dwell in houses made of animal hides, are kinda wild not only in WH40k.

Originally posted by doan_m
In what?

In that you can use lockdown on an armoured vehicle, and destroy it with a weapon designed for killing infantry, before it regains ability to move.

Originally posted by doan_m
With psykers within the regiments of the Imperial Guard?

Who won't see the Ghosts due to their psychic inhibitors?

Originally posted by doan_m
The Tyranids behave differently than the Zerg do. What the Tyranids do, is consume every single living thing in its path along with every natural thing that facilitates living.

The Zerg normally do it, too. They use the local living organisms as a genetic material or meat for the larvae.

Originally posted by doan_m
The Imperium hasn't defeated them at all. Generally speaking.

But the Tyranid do not always win, do they? So how is it, that one time they adapt so quickly, that even lances can't harm them, and another time they get their asses kicked? Are those miracles with adaptation to the level mentioned above single cases?

Originally posted by doan_m
To the point that it rivals Tyranid evolution?

Maybe.
Don't forget the fact, that the Zerg quickly incorporate the genes of other lifeforms into their fold. Should they engage the Tyranid, it is highly possible, that they would soon also have new breeds of units, with such inpenetrable armour.

Originally posted by doan_m
Really now, one of the things that really make the Tyranids so deadly is not just the fact that there attack forces are significantly larger then the millions that the Zerg would field planet side

I'm not so sure about that milions. I just don't know any official info of their numbers, but if there were so many of them on Antiga Prime, that they easily covered the whole surface of the planet, and filled the air... well take a look at our planet - current population of it is over 6 bilions, and we certainly wouldn't be able to cover the whole Earth with our bodies, just as the Zerg did with Antiga Prime. Even including wild animals.
So if 6 bilions isn't enough at all... we may assume, that there were not millions, not billions, but trillions of those Zerg on Antiga.
And yet another thing - the loss of whole that swarm (because it was incinerated by the Protoss due to their destruction of the planet) meant NOTHING to the Zerg.

Originally posted by doan_m
but also because they can block off communications and sever warp travel into and out of the planetary system.

So how did people on Dalki Prime send a distress call at all?

Originally posted by doan_m
Imperial ships have nearly instantly rechargable shields that allow them to reach full power again in nearly no time flat.

So how do the weapons of WH40k penetrate through them, and destroy the armour?

Originally posted by doan_m
Based on what evidence?

Firstly, based on your own words. When you first said, that shields of Imperial ships may suffer teratons of firepower, and that this kind of firepower is able to destroy continents.
Secondly, based on an assumption. The first nukes, those made due to Manhattan Project (e.g. Little Boy or Fatman), had a firepower of 17-20 megatons. The first thermonuclear bomb, made later, was ten times more powerful, which gives 200 megatons of firepower. Nukes 'used' (fortunately, they are not used literally) are even more powerful, as this branch of science still develops, and we know more effective reactions than we knew in the first half of twentieth century. But even a 200-megaton a-bomb, able to take out entire, even the biggest town easily, is still a toy compared to an a-bomb, delivering teratons of firepower. Because those 200 megatons, are still only a 0,0000002 of one teraton. So an atom bomb, with a firepower of X teratons, should destroy a whole continent easily.

Originally posted by doan_m
Like in 40k, where there are actually demonstrated feats of teraton to even petaton level firepower in various novels.

It seems, that they like those numbers. And did they even say, on what reaction is it based? Simply more effective a-bomb, or something new, fictional?

Originally posted by doan_m
Depends on what you are using as the basis of measurement.

The size of the explosion, and effect, that is makes on the environment. Explosion is tiny, and the effect on the environment is... well, there is no such effect at all.

Originally posted by doan_m
Unlike most warfare, TA resources are theoretically not limited, meaning that they can simultaneously fill the demand for a sufficiently land based force AND a naval force at the same time.

But they can produce X amount of units at one time. And if one side wastes that time for producing useless units, and those useless units go down, the other side is far ahead and gains advantage instantly.

Originally posted by Der_SpeeDer
Hardly. Naming a ship "battlecruiser" or "auxiliary cruiser" does not mean, that they are truly cruisers.


With something like "fuel" on the other hand there is not much room for any other means of ambiguity like that of which could be expected from warships. Besides theres no evidence to suggest that they would actually eject plasma instead of having merely just contained it since all evidence suggest its just fuel.


So Siege tanks really shoot hot fire out of its cannons?


You see, its questions like that, that makes the notion that some mysterious fuel converts into plasma absurd.



I did point out several instances of 40k ground based firepower being superior did I not?




Its not. PDFs are strictly localized to immediate planetary defense and are not directly run by the Imperium. They do however still rely on them for support for weapons and supplies.



Relative to 40k. So thats not surprising.

Sentinels and Hellhouds have considerable firepower, but are futile and don't have really good armor They are lower common denominator of armor so as I usually say "thats hardly surprising"



What did I say about game mechanics again?



Resistant enough that it could take easily take on the kind of firepower thats described as a 155mm rapid fire railgun without any hitches.

It depends on the fight. If a Baneblade is needed on a planet then the planet has surely gone to hell(sometimes literally).





By the time you are using Nukes, you are essentially conceding technologically superiority since your best answer would be some of the heaviest firepower conceivable to man. We don't do it with inferiors and we only threaten to use it against those of technological parity.



Most not in the Tau-Kroot alliance are mercenaries out for hire. So I can hardly see why there would be any intent in the first place to actually go out of our way to try to kill them.





They live in spaceships you know. There called warspheres.




I'm asking for hard numbers. What in seconds or minutes have the effects of lockdown been shown to be? And how can you be sure that it would penetrate the armor in the first place? Most bolter rounds(the same kind that have the equivalent firepower of RPG rounds) have been shown to bounce off the armor of most 40k vehicles as if it was nothing but the rain.



I can't see how a device designed to limit the ghost abilities is even relevant.




At the same rate and process that the Tyranids do? For that matter, the same amount of mass per planet or perhaps the equivalent of? Not all means of consumption are built equal you know.





Because Hive Fleets are separate from each other. The only ones who would evolve with such immediacy are the ones who would actually be immediately present in the situation to be forced to adapt such means.





This is of course making the assumption that it would be able to annihilate said multi-kilometer bioship in the first place. Which travels in massive swarms of thousands of ships.



Covered the whole surface of the planet is open to interpretation. One of them not being that it was literally blanketed with Zerg. It could very well simply mean that it had a sufficient presence to drive out the inhabitants from their relevant homes to the point where the coverage was sufficient enough that there was little refuge. A far cry from literally covering the whole planet. Now if you have direct quotes for clarifications sake then all the better.





Again, this is making the presumption that it had to have literally blanketed the entire planet as opposed to just having a sizable presence that drove out the inhabitants. I also seriously doubt that the Zerg would even densely group themselves like that if they even did blanket an entire planet.





I seriously doubt that. When the Tiamat Brood was considered to be the strongest around, the strength size was considered to be around 6,500,000. A loss of trillions, assuming those kinds of numbers would exist in single broods would be potentially devestating considering those numbers.



Because the Shadow of the Warp was thrown up after the distress call was sent?



With an even greater crapload of concentrated firepower than Starcraft would concieve of ever using at once.



Destruction of continents is not the same as the destruction of a planet. Its greater magnitudes of less firepower.



17-20 megatons?!?!?!?!?! Megatons?!?!? Who told you that?!?!? THe Little Boy and the Fatman ranged significantly smaller at 15-20 kilotons.


Who tells you this stuff?!?!?! I don't even think we have anything in the worlds nuclear arsenal that would be at 200 megatons of firepower let alone 50.


But how does this address my question that Teraton level firepower would be sufficient to destroy a planet? Glass it sure,but not destroy it. And seriously? Who told you that we even stockpile 200 megaton warheads to begin with?!?!



They don't outright use those numbers. However the events that do take place in the novels coupled along with sufficient analysis from those better then me have revealed that such magnitude of firepower is well within the norms of Imperium battleships.


Are you still using game mechanics?



Which is merely a limitation of the commanders cognitive abilities. Nothing more.

Originally posted by doan_m
So Siege tanks really shoot hot fire out of its cannons?

No.

Originally posted by doan_m
I did point out several instances of 40k ground based firepower being superior did I not?

How? If you have no single info about what is the level of firepower delivered by Siege Tanks, so how would you compare tanks of WH40k to them? The tanks owned by Space Marines are told to sustain the gigajoules of energy - so, why Siege Tanks shouldn't deliver firepower of that level? Because Blizzard said nothing about it.

Originally posted by doan_m
What did I say about game mechanics again?

Game mechanics are still based on the world's lore in certain stage, aren't they?

Originally posted by doan_m
Most not in the Tau-Kroot alliance are mercenaries out for hire. So I can hardly see why there would be any intent in the first place to actually go out of our way to try to kill them.

Remember, what I said?
I was talking about Kroot primitiveness, not about the other races. And to show this primitiveness, I tried to imagine, how would their invasion on the Earth look like. So why are you now involving other races?

Originally posted by doan_m
They live in spaceships you know. There called warspheres.

Not all of them.

Originally posted by doan_m
I'm asking for hard numbers. What in seconds or minutes have the effects of lockdown been shown to be?

There were no numbers, and that's the point. How you can be sure, that the effect isn't long enough?
Just like that instance with the firepower that Predators or Leman Russes can take.

Originally posted by doan_m
And how can you be sure that it would penetrate the armor in the first place?

It's not the question of armour.

Originally posted by doan_m
I can't see how a device designed to limit the ghost abilities is even relevant.

They are not designed to limit the Ghost abilities. They are used to "lock" the access to the Ghost's mind. Kerrigan said that in Liberty's Crusade.

Originally posted by doan_m
This is of course making the assumption that it would be able to annihilate said multi-kilometer bioship in the first place. Which travels in massive swarms of thousands of ships.

Tyranid bio-weaponry is also a trait based on genes, that can be incorporated by the Zerg too, you know.

Originally posted by doan_m
Covered the whole surface of the planet is open to interpretation. One of them not being that it was literally blanketed with Zerg.

In Liberty's Crusade it was. Antiga Prime was seen on the screen on Hyperion's deck, when Mengsk watched, how it was overrun by the Zerg, represented by small red triangles. When the invasion was over, whole planet was red. Completely. And there were no human units - everything was slaughtered.

Originally posted by doan_m
I seriously doubt that.

And I don't. Because they lost those billions of the Zerg, and were still easily able to unleash next billions (or even trillions, as Mengsk used more than one Psi Emmiter) on Tarsonis. And their advancement in Koprulu sector didn't slow down at all, despite massive losses.

Originally posted by doan_m
When the Tiamat Brood was considered to be the strongest around, the strength size was considered to be around 6,500,000

Now, where did you get that info? There are more soldiers on our old planet Earth, in sad reality of today, than that.

Originally posted by doan_m
Because the Shadow of the Warp was thrown up after the distress call was sent?

And it took one hundred days for the Imperial Navy to arrive? Well, they're having great time there. Even those Terrans could come and bomb the whole planet with nukes.

Originally posted by doan_m
17-20 megatons?!?!?!?!?! Megatons?!?!?

My mistake. Yeah, those were kilotons. I converted those numbers incorrectly.

Originally posted by doan_m
Who told you that?!?!?

Wołoszański. In some way.
He "told" me, that when they made that test nuke explosion ("Trinity", it came out, that the power of blow reached the level of 17 - 20 thousand tons of trotile. Which shocked everybody, as general Leslie Groves thought it would be only 100-500 tons of trotile, and when Oppenheimer stated that it would be a few thousand tons, they disbelieved him.

Originally posted by doan_m
But how does this address my question that Teraton level firepower would be sufficient to destroy a planet?

Single shot - of course not. But if you fire a number of shots, they may turn planet into dust. It is also still based on what kind of weapon it is. Yamato Cannon is basically a particle beam, so it could have more penetration ability, than traditional warhead.

Originally posted by doan_m
Are you still using game mechanics?

And intro?
So what should I use in case of TA? Fanfic?
The idea of 1 kiloton projectiles, that are being shot in tens of hundreds, and show absolutely no signs, that they are really that powerful, is bullshit - especially as it came out, that I was wrong all the time about those kilotons (and thus, those bombs of WWII, that caused local earthquakes when they exploded, had a firepower of 0,005 kilotons). They can consider it canon, because its their world and fiction after all, and I may accept it, but if they told me to believe it, it would offend my intelligence.

Originally posted by doan_m
Which is merely a limitation of the commanders cognitive abilities. Nothing more.

Yeah, sure. You're wasting time, producing next battleships, and suddenly you realize, that enemies are already shooting at your commander, because all previously built ships are down, and there is nothing to protect him (commander) from enemy fire. What then?

Originally posted by Der_SpeeDer
That's really great. But this works on the both sides, you know that?
The difference being of course that I've brought up evidence that demonstrates superior firepower in 40k's favor.



With that kind of logic I shouldn't be able to prove that a Star Destroyer cannot withstand the blast of the siege tank simply because a lack of evidence is there.

I can however provide a useful means of giving some limit as to what exactly it is capable of withstanding:


"Re-laying the gun took a vital second. In that time, the second tank fired again and hit the Wrath squarely. The impact was enough to lurch all sixty-two tonnes of armoured machine several metres sideways. But it didn't penetrate the twenty centimetre-thick armour skin. Inside, the crew were dazed and they'd lost most of the forward scopes."

So they got armor capable of withstanding something that can lurch a 62 ton tank several meters to the side without penetrating the armor and dazing the crew.



All this argumentation? Really? I did cite novels that demonstrates 40k's firepower that would allow the fight to be highly in 40ks favor. Now if this is in reference to the siege tank arguments then i'll just point to the star destroyer argument again.

Why? Comparison is exactly what is being done for the last 4 pages with some actual finite results as to who is capable of what and what it means when going up against another sci-fi universe. A single unit for which there is some lack of evidence is not sufficient basis for a dismissal of comparison.


I'm well aware of that. The argument still applies.






And this bears relevance to my asking just how exactly would infantry killing weapons be penetrating 40k armor?



You are missing the point. How exactly do the Zerg intend to take samples of Hive ships when the Hive ship fleets themselves are magnitudes more powerful and highly extremely numerical to the point that any such attempt to actually assimilate them would in extreme liklihood, end in failure?



And what reasonable evidence is there to provide that the number of triangles on that map were actually that dense in the first place? The triangles overlapping or not and it being big or small would make a huge difference yet any of these possibilities would still cover the whole "cover the planet" situation just fine.




It doesn't. But it handily disproves that the planet was not blanketed in a massive wave of Zerg.






I'm pointing out that its not reasonable to make that assumption based on those red triangles on Antiga Prime.




There have been no demonstrates means to counter the Shadow of the Warp. the local PDF and maybe the Guard would have to rely on themselves if they are stuck in such a situation. Or just simply pray that potential reinforcements can actually bludgeon their way through the Shadow of the Warp.





Not at that level but at the point where large chunks of planetary debris should be broken off the planet.


You see, when I apply the term destroy the planet, i'm thinking of shattering the planet to the point that the debris flies away from each other at absurd velocities. "Drilling" down to the core (as freakishly long as it would take even with Teraton firepower, assuming of course it actually goes through) is not something that I would quantify as "destroying the planet"



Except that all visual evidence is really to the contrary. Why exactly would a planets core even explode like that in the first place?



When mountain sized trees hold up, of course it would.


Did they even have any sufficiently decent means of support that would actually effectively counter air assets to begin with? Or at least something on the same level as TA?



In game build times are considered canon. And the same rate is not entirely uniform as there is the asymmetrical considerations that the enemy has more naval yards than you to actually replenish said numbers fast enough.

I've been reading these really long posts for awhile now and just wanted to point something out.

I am a huge fan of BOTH Starcraft and Warhammer 40K. I have read a lot of the books and fluff from both universes. I am not biased to liking one or the other more. With this knowledge I can tell you that Starcraft simply does not have the technological advancement that the Warhammer 40K universe has. However, We could argue technological prowess all damn day.
So, to appease both sides of the argument, lets say their TECHNOLOGICAL abilities are completely equal. That or they are balanced to the point where technological advantage does not matter in their war. If we agree to this hypothetical statement, then it comes down to one thing. Their respective universes' ability to wage war.

The Imperium contains (when compared to the starcraft universe) essentially unlimited resources. The Imperium of Man is so large that I would argue that its birthrate is larger per day than the population of the Koprulu sector. Now, simple manpower and attrition can be won easily by the IOM (Imperium of Man). The simple fact that the IOM is TOO LARGE for the Terrans zerg and protoss to handle.

And another thing; this topic seems to have taken a turn to just the Imperium vs all the races of Starcraft. This is not the case. We have been taking into account the Terran, Protoss, and Zerg in this argument, but not the other races of Warhammer 40K. Now throw the insane military might of Chaos Marines and its Daemons, The limitless Tyranids, the survivor warrior race (Orks), the Omnicidal Necrons, the Eldar, the Dark Eldar, and the Tau. This is a lost cause for the 200 or so worlds of Starcraft.

In short: Say hypothetically that the United States of America (or Russia or any other high-population country) and The tiny Country of Palau are technological equals. Palau cannot win because its population is way too small. Even if they had a "slight" tech advantage, they COULD NOT win.

Last, you leave out the fact that in Warhammer 40K, Humanity has already reached the pinnacle of Technology in the past. Because of the fact that this technological marvel turned on them (they were near unstoppable Battle droids called "Iron Men" It ended up setting back the technology of the IOM back a couple thousand years. And the Imperium is STILL dangerous and powerful as ****.

TL; DR - If all the races of the Warhammer 40K universe were united in the goal to destroy the Zerg, Protoss, and Terran; Tech advantage would not ****ing matter. Their is simply too much to fight. 40K wins.

And if I was to guess as to what other fictional universes could stack up to Warhammer, I would say there are two (that I can think of right now).

The Empire from the "Foundation" novels by Isaac Asimov

The Precursors from Halo. (NOTE: NOT Forerunners, I mean the races that came before them.) The precursors were supposed to be so advanced that they are believed to have ascended to Godhood through technology.

Tier 0: Transsentient As the had no examples of civilizations with technological accomplishment greater than themselves - with the exception of the Precursors - this is a theoretical ceiling. They can travel intergalactic and accelerate evolution of intelligent life. These may be creatures of legend. (Source: Halopedia)

I didn't read through all this, however one thing I believe would happen after a few years is:

Tyranerds (Tyranids and Zergs).

That's right, seeing as Tyranids would get some DNA from Zerg and Zerg would resurrect Tyranids it would all just skew until they were one and the same and thier combined force would wipe out everyone!

Originally posted by doan_m
The difference being of course that I've brought up evidence that demonstrates superior firepower in 40k's favor.

What evidence? You've told me about an immense firepower of Imperial Navy ships, that gives them ability to sterilize the whole planet easily even when they have only one vessel. I didn't hear anything similar about Leman Russes. Well, besides of those "gigajoules of firepower they can take" - and I already told you, that you have no single info, that Siege Tanks do not deliver that level of firepower.

Originally posted by doan_m
With that kind of logic I shouldn't be able to prove that a Star Destroyer cannot withstand the blast of the siege tank simply because a lack of evidence is there.

OOOOKKK...

Originally posted by doan_m
So they got armor capable of withstanding something that can lurch a 62 ton tank several meters to the side without penetrating the armor and dazing the crew.

Nice.
But what's should fully convince me in this instance? That weight of 62 tons? If contemporary tanks weight around 30, that number, if we remember, that it is year 40 000+, is not really shocking.

Originally posted by doan_m
All this argumentation? Really? I did cite novels that demonstrates 40k's firepower that would allow the fight to be highly in 40ks favor.

Yes, and I partially agree with you (especially in case of Imperial Navy), but there is still too much relativeness in certain instances. Like that one with lurching a 62-tons tank.
And Siege Tanks? I don't know about their weight (but its a few tens of tons for sure), but when they fire from shock cannon, they need those metal "legs" for stability - because, obviously, they wouldn't just be lurched. They would risk falling to the side.

Originally posted by doan_m
Now if this is in reference to the siege tank arguments then i'll just point to the star destroyer argument again.

That's too obvious.

Originally posted by doan_m
Why? Comparison is exactly what is being done for the last 4 pages with some actual finite results as to who is capable of what and what it means when going up against another sci-fi universe. A single unit for which there is some lack of evidence is not sufficient basis for a dismissal of comparison.

I'm not talking about this single lack of info only. Those two Sci-verses were made for completely different purposes, by different people, under the influence of completely different style and directives. So what's the point of making such comparision from the start?
I can compare WH40k universe to the Dragonball Z universe, too. And even say, that guys from WH40k would be in big trouble in such conflict, as each DBZ character's average ability is launching a fireball, that can destroy entire planet bloody easily, with a minimum energy loss to the shooter. But this comparision is absurd, because those are completely two different fictional realities. Maybe comparing WH40k to StarCraft is lesser absurd, but still absurd.
It wasn't Blizzard's goal during creation of SC, to make up an incredibly powerful technology for all races. When guys from GW created WH40k universe, they had such goal.

Originally posted by doan_m
And this bears relevance to my asking just how exactly would infantry killing weapons be penetrating 40k armor?

What are you talking about right now?
I told about that instance just in order to show, how long is Lockdown's duration. Destroying a tank with a weapon, that is designed for killing infantry, is definitely time-consuming, if even possible.

Originally posted by doan_m
You are missing the point. How exactly do the Zerg intend to take samples of Hive ships when the Hive ship fleets themselves are magnitudes more powerful and highly extremely numerical to the point that any such attempt to actually assimilate them would in extreme liklihood, end in failure?

So don't these guys have heavier ground weaponry, in order to destroy the ships in the orbit from planet's surface?

Originally posted by doan_m
And what reasonable evidence is there to provide that the number of triangles on that map were actually that dense in the first place?

That the planet was still "almost completely overrun"?
If we made such screen, showing the Earth, with such triangles showing human beings, they wouldn't cover even 30% of the planet's surface. And there is well over 6 billion people in the world.
So what is it exactly, that should make me NOT assume, that there is so many Zerg, that they've overrun almost entire planet, so they can also be counted in billions?

Originally posted by doan_m
It doesn't. But it handily disproves that the planet was not blanketed in a massive wave of Zerg.

Even if it was not blanketed, it was mostly covered. "Almost" - so let's say, that 90% of the surface. Now compare it to those 'human' triangles, covering not even 30% of similar planet's surface, and yet counting over 6 billions in numbers.
And the Tarsonis was blanketed, so there were billions of those Zerg for sure.

Originally posted by doan_m
I'm pointing out that its not reasonable to make that assumption based on those red triangles on Antiga Prime.

So on what should I base my assumption? On those 6,5 millions in Tiamat Brood, that you seem to have made up?

Originally posted by doan_m
You see, when I apply the term destroy the planet, i'm thinking of shattering the planet to the point that the debris flies away from each other at absurd velocities. "Drilling" down to the core (as freakishly long as it would take even with Teraton firepower, assuming of course it actually goes through) is not something that I would quantify as "destroying the planet"

So can those guys from Imperial Navy "destroy the planet" or not? Or you just meant turning planet into lifeless rock earlier?

Originally posted by doan_m
Except that all visual evidence is really to the contrary. Why exactly would a planets core even explode like that in the first place?

Hold on, first you use that vid as an argument, now you write such things?

Originally posted by doan_m
When mountain sized trees hold up, of course it would.

To destroy such a tree, you would only need a crude torch, light it up, and wait until it burns. Trees aren't armoured targets, that can't be destroyed with standard weaponry. Even if they are huge.

Originally posted by doan_m
Did they even have any sufficiently decent means of support that would actually effectively counter air assets to begin with? Or at least something on the same level as TA?

They had an assistance of carriers, with squadrons of fighters.
Besides, what's that argument? Contemporary ships have weaponry capable of shooting down enemy aircraft effectively. And yet battleships were never reintroduced. Why? Try to anwer that question yourself.

Originally posted by doan_m
In game build times are considered canon. And the same rate is not entirely uniform as there is the asymmetrical considerations that the enemy has more naval yards than you to actually replenish said numbers fast enough.

I'm fully aware of that. It hardly changes my point.




Imperium has too many problems to handle at one time, so we shouldn't assume that it would be able to direct that whole manpower against Terrans, Zerg or Protoss. In WH40k universe there are races, that are relatively small in numbers, too (Tau, for example - their empire is tiny, compared to the WH40k universe's vastness). If Imperium can win everything just by sheer numbers, why didn't they slaughter anybody long time ago?



Yes.
Assuming, that all these guys would act as one.
But that is impossible in WH40k. They're killing each other every day. They don't ally. It is more possible for the races of SC to ally.

Skaven in 'old' Warhammer would also easily conquer the whole world just by their sheer numbers, if they united. But they won't unite - that's impossible. I've read the novel about Gotrek's ecounter with Skaven, so I know, how all their plans of conquest end.



If we involve a timeline in this, so then let's imagine, how would races of SC look like in that year 40 000+, if they are already considerably powerful in 2499.


In case of universes being capable of fighting that of WH40k, maybe I would add that "computer" from Lem's novel "Invincible". It would cause much trouble to the Imperium.

Originally posted by Der_SpeeDer

Bringing up the firepower for Naval based assets is quite sufficient enough to bring up considering that, that will certainly be where a fair number of engagements will happen. That is, 40k will likely be able to stop the majority of any Starcrafts orbital invasions of 40k planets before they even happen.

Did I not bring up those absurd Lasgun capabilites that showed it capable of instantly turning a large fish into nothing but a puddle of guts? Did I not also showed the explosive potential of promethium? 125 km ranges for Basilisk Artillery cannon? Genestealers and Carnifexes capable of ripping adamantium?(First ever post for reference sake)

No? Not enough? Need to take it up higher? Ok, how about Battle titans with 7 layers of Void shields? The same Titans that will possess lower denominators of starship weaponry? How about the hand-held Meltagun capable of instantly vaporizing a few dozen cubic meters of ice in an instant(Caves of Ice)? Autocannons capable of outputting a thousand bolter rounds per second(Gaunts Ghost:First and Only).





And there is absolutely zero evidence that they do.



Now do you see why hiding behind a lack of evidence is a fallacy?



Nice.
But what's should fully convince me in this instance? That weight of 62 tons? If contemporary tanks weight around 30, that number, if we remember, that it is year 40 000+, is not really shocking.
The only reason to indicate the weight is to show what kind of object was being thrown around and under what kind of duress of firepower. In fact, a tank thats heavier in the far future, means absolutely nothing. For all I care tanks in OUR far future could be significantly lighter then normal but would possess 10 times the durability for all i care.


Relative to what?




Leman Russ Tanks have inertial dampeners to compensate for recoil.







The exact same thing can be said about Star Wars vs. Star Trek, but guess what? That classic comparison is made pretty much made practically all the freaking time even now as we speak in all likelihood.



Because its fun? Because people actually enjoy making such comparisons in the first place? And because some people honestly want to know the results? Thats not too hard to imagine. And why complain about it now, when you're in this deep in arguing about this topic?




Except thats EXACTLY what you did just right there. You just made the comparison between DBZ and 40k despite the fact that you label it as absurd to do so. You just established that DBZ has sufficient firepower and can distribute it easily enough that 40k wouldn't be much of a challenge and thus making the comparision results clear as to which universe is the superior. So tell me this, why exactly is what you did absurd? Is it because of the disparity in superior firepower that offsets it? And if so, why would that even be a basis to establish that comparing two sci-fi is "absurd?"



And neither is that relevant. Hardly anyone, or at least anyone who wants to consider their work decent would not factor in another sci-fi universe and factor in what kind of firepower another science fiction universe is wielding.


Your proof of this?




In that you can use lockdown on an armoured vehicle, and destroy it with a weapon designed for killing infantry, before it regains ability to move.



And how can you be sure that it would penetrate the armor in the first place?

It's not the question of armour.

All right lets backtrack a bit and get some perspective:

It was when you made the claim that using Infantry killing weapons would be used to destroy locked down armor.

Ghosts are not single units on the battlefield.


And this bears relevance to my asking just how exactly would infantry killing weapons be penetrating 40k armor?

That bolded part in that argument is what i'm talking about. What exactly makes you so sure that anti-infantry weapons from SC, of all weapons could be able to penetrate 40k armor?



Depends vastly on the planet. And if they are fielding orbital defenses odds are that by nature the firepower of such weapons are extremely powerful and are essentially, ship weapons.


Well duh. We populate this Earth based on regions that we deem favourable and group together in extremely dense cities or towns. Of course it will only cover a smaller percentage, because unlike the Zerg, we have no intent of spreading ourselves out.


Can you reasonably establish that each triangle would represent millions of zergs based on a bunch of triangles on a display screen? Because that very novel even establishes that a single triangle would represent something close to hundreds of Mutalisk.



Why 90%? Why not 60% or 70%? Any of those percentiles would do well enough to establish a mostly covered figure as well.


Those "human triangles" would have an established density of millions, if not hundreds of thousands of people. Something that is NOT established in Liberty's Crusade.

Well guess what? There were also other triangles as well on that map, which also indicated civilians trying to escape and planetary defense forces trying to hold them off. Is there any reason why any of those triangles should also be established as millions of people?



I pulled them from the Starcraft Wiki.
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Tiamat


Essentially a lifeless, atmosphereless rock.


When I say that all visual evidence is to the contary, i'm referring to your argument that it seems to be based on a chain reaction.



Of course you can. But when you have them destroyed almost instantly, or can transfer enough firepower that a tree of that size would be almost immediately consumed by flame, then there is a massive disparity of firepower that is established.





I'm sure mirroring the real world where the World Stage is completely different is a very good means of questioning why TA has those assets >_>




Because hardly anyone fights a war where the enemy is on a similar technological level as you do? Or for that matter, because Naval engagements hardly take place in this world anymore. Unlike TA, where they deem naval control to be relevant and where your enemy actually DOES have a level of technological equivalence as you do.



You're point acted under the presumption that all forces would indefinitely be wiped out. I establish that unlike real time naval ships, they can at the very least, be able to rebuild their numbers in a very quick amount of time, and unlike our real world. For extremely cheap in comparision.




It won't even need to.



Ever heard of the Damocles Crusade? They essentially almost did. They took a very small fraction of 40k Naval assets and dedicated it to wiping out the Tau. They would very well have succeeded as well had it not been for the nearest Tyranid Hive Fleet. Something that is deemed a much larger threat.






Even an allied combine force of all those factions wouldn't be able to reach the vast size of the Imperium. Which for the record Jack Bleak, is exactly why i'm arguing mainly on the side of the Imperium.


Its the exact same case with the Orks in 40k.




Any such speculation would be absolutely baseless. If you want to speculate and create anything beyond that, you might as well be writing your own fanfic. Besides if you want to scale through time, then I'll just bring up Dark Age of Technology Humanity.
An extremely advanced form of Humanity in the past that was able to do the following: capable of moving entire solar systems to other parts of the galaxy(Hence why Earth is in a different part of milky way)

-Have enough Baneblades to make them a simple common denominator battle tank.
-Mass produce War Titans
-Blow up suns.
-considered Terminator Armor to just be something like a hazmat suit designed to do work in plasma reactors
-possess weather control technology.
-laser rifles capable of making 40k level firepower a mockery

It seems like you missed something. The topic is Warhammer 40,000 Versus Starcraft. Not Imperium of Man versus Starcfraft. This means the whole shebang. You are trying to say that the 200 Worlds and manpower of Starcraft (Not Terrans only, or Zerg only, or Protoss only; but all of them) vs Warhammer 40K. (NOT just the IOM, or Chaos or etc...)

If you wanted to make this JUST the IOM versus Starcraft then, you are correct when you say the Imperium has a lot on their plate. But they are still so large that the force they can send will be more massive.

FACT: There are OVER 1 million worlds in the IOM vs starcraft. The ratio? They have more than 5000 worlds at their disposal to your every 1. 5000:1. The resource advantage is massive. Have you ever tried to play a game of starcraft against someone who starts out with 1000000 crystal and vespene? Its kind of ridiculous to say you could even put up a fight.

As I said before, it is simply too large. Doan, your analysis of the Dark Age of Technology was spot on. The Dark Age of Technology is not something Starcraft wants to mess with. The only reason any of the other races (Orks, Eldar, Tau...etc) still exist are because the Iron Men rebelled and fought a titanic battle with Humanity across the galaxy. oh and humanity won (obviously). They prevailed against nigh unstoppable machines so what makes you think that starcraft can beat Warhammer 40K?

You also mentioned earlier that ghosts and science vessels could lock our shit down, well fine. Assuming we are not arguing technological advantage (which I could make a case for lockdown not doing shit against a battlebarge), then look at it this way. There are not enough Ghosts or Science vessels in Starcraft to make a dent in the Imperium.

Last; Didn't the Zerg trounce everyone except for being wiped off of Shakuras? So doesn't that mean that the Starcraft war machine is weak as hell right now?

2 other things:

When I was referring to the pinnacle of technological achievement (aka Iron men) I was moving into the PAST not the future. You saying to imagine what SC would be like in 40,000 years is taking a step forward so that is a moot point. You can't argue hypothetical technological achievement against the technology that the IOM already achieved.

Two: If you were to plan the invasion of the IOM by the races of Starcraft (the Zerg, Protoss, and Terran are not allied according to your rules, so they are still fighting each other) how exactly would you try to do that? Its not like the races of starcraft have mapped the IOM's galaxy. They wouldn't even know where to begin. Also, if they were working together and the warhammer races were not; do you honestly think that the only race your invasion fleet would run into would be IOM? Your Psykers (Protoss and Ghosts) would get mutated and possessed by Chaos just for being there and God help you if you run into a tomb world or a hive fleet. Maybe they would get sucked into the eye of terror. That could be funny.

Originally posted by doan_m
Bringing up the firepower for Naval based assets is quite sufficient enough to bring up considering that, that will certainly be where a fair number of engagements will happen. That is, 40k will likely be able to stop the majority of any Starcrafts orbital invasions of 40k planets before they even happen.

Agreed.

Originally posted by doan_m
Did I not bring up those absurd Lasgun capabilites that showed it capable of instantly turning a large fish into nothing but a puddle of guts?

How large was that fish? Because contemporary shotgun, if fired from short distance, also can reap fish into pieces.

Originally posted by doan_m
Did I not also showed the explosive potential of promethium?

You did. I even had to remind you, that burning underwater is not the question of destructive power of the bomb, but of the oxidizer (example with M76 bomb produced during WWII).

Originally posted by doan_m
Genestealers and Carnifexes capable of ripping adamantium?(First ever post for reference sake)

Thought Marines' and Terminators' armours are made of plasteel.

Originally posted by doan_m
Ok, how about Battle titans with 7 layers of Void shields? The same Titans that will possess lower denominators of starship weaponry?

How many Titans are there in Imperium? How often are they used?

Originally posted by doan_m
How about the hand-held Meltagun capable of instantly vaporizing a few dozen cubic meters of ice in an instant(Caves of Ice)?

You see, there is another problem - guys from Blizzard, and the authors of the books based on SC, simply do not make up instances like this. Because what about it - we're discussing the firepower of Meltaguns basing on the ice melting speed rate? That sounds ridiculous.
Ability to destroy (pardon, evaporize) a planet with single vessel convinces me, that it has huge firepower. Such cases do not.

Originally posted by doan_m
Autocannons capable of outputting a thousand bolter rounds per second(Gaunts Ghost:First and Only).

Well, rain of RPGs - that is devastating.

Originally posted by doan_m
And there is absolutely zero evidence that they do.

They are armed with plasma cannons, that are usually portrayed as one of the most potent weapons in Sci-Fi. They had to be equipped with those legs during firing, or they would fall. Explosions of their projectiles cause quakes.
That's "absolutely zero evidence"?

Originally posted by doan_m
Now do you see why hiding behind a lack of evidence is a fallacy?

And using instances, that are cool because of their impossibility to compare, as arguments in discussion, is a great thing?

Originally posted by doan_m
Relative to what?

E.g. the same fact of lurching the tank - does that really show the penetrating power of the cannon? Or just velocity of the projectile of the force it was used to "throw" it away from the barrel (which is based on its weight)? Should we base on recoil, then Long Maxes (German Cannons from WWI) were more powerful than both Leman Russ and AAV-5 Arclite.

Originally posted by doan_m
And why complain about it now, when you're in this deep in arguing about this topic?

Hard to tell. I probably simply enjoy entering senseless discussions. As well as arguing with stupid people (no, I don't say, that you are stupid - I just argued many times in the Internet with people, that were obviously idiots, who I shouldn't care about - but I argued with them).

Originally posted by doan_m
Except thats EXACTLY what you did just right there. You just made the comparison between DBZ and 40k despite the fact that you label it as absurd to do so.

I just made a small example. Those two fictional universes are so different, that it's nonesense to compare them.

Originally posted by doan_m
Your proof of this?

Level of firepower each race delivers?

Originally posted by doan_m
That bolded part in that argument is what i'm talking about. What exactly makes you so sure that anti-infantry weapons from SC, of all weapons could be able to penetrate 40k armor?

I didn't say that. I told you about penetrating an armour of SC units. Because it is penetrated. But when you try to destroy Siege Tank with a single Ghost, it's time-consuming.

Originally posted by doan_m
Well duh. We populate this Earth based on regions that we deem favourable and group together in extremely dense cities or towns.

And how do the Zerg move, in tiraliers? Or in dense swarms?

Originally posted by doan_m
Can you reasonably establish that each triangle would represent millions of zergs based on a bunch of triangles on a display screen? Because that very novel even establishes that a single triangle would represent something close to hundreds of Mutalisk.

I never told about how many Zerg does single triangle represent. I simply said about the size of the surface those triangles covered.

Originally posted by doan_m
Why 90%? Why not 60% or 70%? Any of those percentiles would do well enough to establish a mostly covered figure as well.

Even 60% or 70% is well above the percentage of the Earth's surface we cover.

Originally posted by doan_m
Those "human triangles" would have an established density of millions, if not hundreds of thousands of people. Something that is NOT established in Liberty's Crusade.

So how do you imagine this? Single Zergs, or small bunches of them, in distance of few kilometers from each other? Zerg do not move like that, they march in huge swarms. And when all of them are invading one planet at one time, why would they separate into smaller groups, rather than forming a bloody dense swarm, growing as more and more Zerg arrive?

Originally posted by doan_m
Well guess what? There were also other triangles as well on that map, which also indicated civilians trying to escape and planetary defense forces trying to hold them off. Is there any reason why any of those triangles should also be established as millions of people?

Like I said, I'm basing mainly on the size of the surface, not trying to answer, how many people are represented by single triangle.

Originally posted by doan_m
I pulled them from the Starcraft Wiki.

Why didn't you tell me this earlier? This changes things.
Although I still hardly believe it. Only 6,5 millions?

Originally posted by doan_m
When I say that all visual evidence is to the contary, i'm referring to your argument that it seems to be based on a chain reaction.

For first, I simply believed, that through "destroying the planet" you meant blowing it up wholly, changing into a bunch of asteroids flying off into space everywhere. And when you've shown me that pic, I thought, that breaking through the planet into its core caused such destruction later.

Originally posted by doan_m
Of course you can. But when you have them destroyed almost instantly, or can transfer enough firepower that a tree of that size would be almost immediately consumed by flame, then there is a massive disparity of firepower that is established.

Well, OK, but I would really like to see this ingame. Because when lore from the game does not accord to the fanfic, there's something not quite right about it.

Originally posted by doan_m
I'm sure mirroring the real world where the World Stage is completely different is a very good means of questioning why TA has those assets >_>

They are still basing on real world nevertheless. They have tanks and armoured vehicles, just like us. They have KBots as equivalent of infantry. They have aeroplanes and naval ships that are almost exactly like those of contemporary warfare. The only differences are firepower and that technological miracle with units and structures being built instantly. This still doesn't change situation much. Because if you can build next battleship instantly, your enemy can build ships instantly too, and sank all your battleships with air assets, at a minimum losses, leaving you with nothing. Well, maybe with those ships you managed to build meanwhile, but your enemy already has entire fleet of them, and builds new ships instantly, just like you.

Originally posted by doan_m
Because hardly anyone fights a war where the enemy is on a similar technological level as you do?

Errr... World War II? World War I?

Originally posted by doan_m
Or for that matter, because Naval engagements hardly take place in this world anymore.

Which brings up again a question, why such archaic weaponry should be reintroduced in distant future, although it is considered arachronic even today.

Originally posted by doan_m
Unlike TA, where they deem naval control to be relevant and where your enemy actually DOES have a level of technological equivalence as you do.

So what? If you have 50% of your fleet (because those useless battleships were already sunk by air strikes), and enemy has 100% of it, you're finished. Building new ships in seconds won't save you, because - as you said - your enemy is on equivalent tech level, and build new ships in matter of seconds too, keeping advantage.

Originally posted by doan_m
I establish that unlike real time naval ships, they can at the very least, be able to rebuild their numbers in a very quick amount of time, and unlike our real world. For extremely cheap in comparision.

If your enemy build new ships at the same speed rate, increasing the power of his fleet already, while you are trying to REBUILD it, it won't save you.

Originally posted by doan_m
Ever heard of the Damocles Crusade?

I did. It took place at the borders of Tau space, didn't it?

Originally posted by doan_m
They essentially almost did. They took a very small fraction of 40k Naval assets and dedicated it to wiping out the Tau. They would very well have succeeded as well had it not been for the nearest Tyranid Hive Fleet. Something that is deemed a much larger threat.

Well, this shows, that Imperium probably would not destroy Terran Dominion, because it would have to give up the conquest in face of greater threat.

Originally posted by doan_m
Which for the record Jack Bleak, is exactly why i'm arguing mainly on the side of the Imperium.

Hell yeah. If Imperium is considered to be the most powerful faction in WH40k universe, then why not compare SC races to it? Especially that comparing them to all races of WH40k would make our post much, much longer.

Originally posted by doan_m
Any such speculation would be absolutely baseless.Originally posted by doan_m
Besides if you want to scale through time, then I'll just bring up Dark Age of Technology Humanity.
An extremely advanced form of Humanity in the past that was able to do the following:

OK, I don't have anything more to say in this matter.




Originally posted by Jack Bleak
It seems like you missed something. The topic is Warhammer 40,000 Versus Starcraft. Not Imperium of Man versus Starcfraft.

See above, that reply to doan_m's post starting with "hell yeah".

Originally posted by Jack Bleak
FACT: There are OVER 1 million worlds in the IOM vs starcraft. The ratio? They have more than 5000 worlds at their disposal to your every 1. 5000:1. The resource advantage is massive. Have you ever tried to play a game of starcraft against someone who starts out with 1000000 crystal and vespene? Its kind of ridiculous to say you could even put up a fight.

Correctly, but it's not so simple, when you reming Damocles Crusade. If Imperium would simply devastate SC races due to it's sheer size, manpower and industrial power, they why weren't they able to destroy Tau, that also have tiny empire, and had to give up fighting them in order to deal with the Tyranid threat?

Originally posted by Jack Bleak
As I said before, it is simply too large. Doan, your analysis of the Dark Age of Technology was spot on. The Dark Age of Technology is not something Starcraft wants to mess with.

It is not something that ANYTHING wants to mess with .

Originally posted by Jack Bleak
They prevailed against nigh unstoppable machines so what makes you think that starcraft can beat Warhammer 40K?

If they were stopped, and Imperium is still huge and powerful, then they were surely not unstoppable.
The Zerg were able to devastate the most powerful race in SC universe, possessing immense knowledge and powers.

Originally posted by Jack Bleak
(which I could make a case for lockdown not doing shit against a battlebarge)

But against Baneblade or Basilisk - for sure.

Originally posted by Jack Bleak
There are not enough Ghosts or Science vessels in Starcraft to make a dent in the Imperium.

But to cause trouble to potential single strike force - perhaps.

Originally posted by Jack Bleak
Didn't the Zerg trounce everyone except for being wiped off of Shakuras? So doesn't that mean that the Starcraft war machine is weak as hell right now?

Sorry, I don't get this logic.

Originally posted by Jack Bleak
Two: If you were to plan the invasion of the IOM by the races of Starcraft (the Zerg, Protoss, and Terran are not allied according to your rules, so they are still fighting each other) how exactly would you try to do that?

I would never move that far to imagine an invasion on IOM world (except for situation, when a fleet of Behemoths arrives on border colony, turns it into black orb with nuclear barrage instantly, and leaves as soon as it appeared).

I just try to point out, that they would have considerable chances in potential fight, e.g. invasion on one of their planets.

Sorry, but I found this randomly one day and need to set facts straight.

First, as doan stated early on, a Lasgun can go through 3 meters of concrete, and the cell's can be set to explode or release all energy in a single shot. Doing such pretty much ruins the barrel, but increases the power of the shot more than two fold. Infact, the rapid heat generated from the Lasgun on it's target cause an explosion of moister (which is why Lasguns are good vs. unarmored targets.)

Seond, promethium is a term for any fuel used in the Imperium, and is strong enough to reduce Orkz to molten slag in mere seconds ("Let the Galaxy Burn; Ork Hunter"

I don't know what Marine armor is made of, but it's tough stuff. More so than neosteel used by the Terrans. If zerglings can shred Terran Marines, then what does that say about their armor? Zerglings=Rippers, and rippers cant penetrate Space Marine armor.

There are about 100 Titans in the Imperium. They are comon during Crusades or WAAAGH's! like Armagedon.

A Meltagun is a gun that can melt Bulkheads, Armor and vehicles. Considering the stuff the Vehicles and Bulkheads are made of, that's really power full.

Instances for comparisons are the only conductive way to go about this debate. Unless you know all the stats of both sides weapons and capabilities, then it's the only way to go. Opinons dont mean much when not backed by evidence. Canon is canon, no matter what you think. It's called Sci-fi because it's Science fiction, so calling something a "lie" in fiction is a moot point.

Tyranids balnket planets. Never heard of Rippers?

Games are not lore, fluff or canon. Not solid at least because said games have to have some semblance to balance. Codex's are the most reliable, second is Black Library books.

The IoM is not the most powerful. Tyranids and Necrons are the most powerful. Nothing Starcraft has can stop those threats short of destroying worlds. And I mean completly destroy. A tomb comlex underground aint gonna feel the surface burning.

The Tau only exist because of plot armor. And the fact that the Tyranids barged in.

We can't say anything about Lockdown untill we know how it works. I think it's fair to say if it can't penetrate the armor, than it doesent work. So Baneblades and Lemans are safe, unless the lockdown missle is some super powerful armor piercing dril that we don't know about.

keep in mind that if Starcraft had to invade, they would also end up runing into Orkz and the other enemies. More than enough to mess their sh@t up good.

Starcraft wins hands down if they are played by Koreans if not then it's anyone's game.

You didn't answer some of my questions. But I'll answer some of yours.

No, the Imperium is not technically the most powerful faction in the universe... but they are like tied for first because they are assaulted on all sides all the time and still beat ass.



So you want to compare 3 races to the power of one? Hence; the name of the topic. I'll reiterate once more, STARCRAFT VS WARHAMMER 40K. As in their whole respective universes. It is not just IOM vs Protoss or any combination you want to make. So yes, you have to take into account all of the other threats in the Warhammer 40K universe, not just pick and choose when it is convenient for your argument.

Now, just for clarification; what is it you are trying to prove? I'm serious, I'm not trying to sound condescending. I just mean like; you want to prove that starcraft is more powerful and would whip WH40K's ass? or that they could take a certain amount of worlds or just be a general thorn in the ass to the IOM? Because if that's the case, the IOM has been dealing with plenty of more dangerous thorns for far longer than any of the Starcraft races. The IOM would probably not really notice such a tiny place like the koprulu sector until they encroached on their worlds. Which brings me to:




Doan already answered this. They would have utterly wiped out the Tau. No questions asked. (Because, regardless of technology, their empire is way too small to really do anything to the IOM. How fitting for this argument). They had to stop and deal with a Tyranid hive fleet because...well...they are WAY MORE dangerous than the Tau. Tyranid hive fleets consume a couple hundred worlds whenever they invade so, they have to be stopped as soon as possible. Which is another point. The Zerg have so little numbers compared to the tyranids that the zerg would be inconsequential to when the IOM would deal with them. I know this because I remember that the largest Brood (I think Jormungandr) had like 6,500,000 zerg in it. So even if all the broods were that large, and you combined them into one; they would barely scratch the surface of the numbers contained within a Hive fleet.



They were NIGH unstoppable. NIGH. The IOM won that because they had access to all the other tech that was available in the Dark Age of Technology. Which, if I may remind you, made them nearly invincible. So, not to sound contradictory, the Machines were badass and tough as hell. So was the war machine of the IOM even without the Ironmen. It was a hell of a fight. The IOM won (it wasn't like it was easy, they set the IOM's tech back for a couple thousand years). Then we come to the Zerg again. Yes they screwed the protoss, but the protoss sure as hell couldn't beat the imperium. So, in turn, the Zerg definitely can't.


I'll get to this in a sec


A single strike force? Cause trouble? A "single" strike force sent by the imperium would be so much more massive than anything the SC races could put together. Remember the Ratio? 5000:1? Say each of those 5000 worlds sent ONE capital ship. ONE. they would be sending 5000 capital battlebarges (which you can't lock down) on your ass at a MINIMUM. fortunately, battlebarges don't travel alone, they travel in fleets. So you can multiply that number by anything greater than 5. So where are we at now? At a minimum, 25,000 ships going to screw SC up? That is the tiny bit of resources it has at its disposal because it is 5000:1 planets. Now, depending on what they considered the threat level of the SC races; they would probably send more.


I will clear it up for you then. At the end of Starcraft: Brood War, Kerrigan won. The protoss (except for those on shakuras) and the terran dominion were RAVAGED. They are very weak at this point and are still fighting the (compared to the protoss and Terrans at this point) powerful Zerg. So, trying to fight the Mother ****ing IOM RIGHT NOW is like the most horrible idea ever conceived. (And we are talking about the PRESENT time period for each fiction).


Yeah. I never said that they couldnt take a single planet. But its like being a friggin penguin that decides it would be a good idea to stab a 100 foot tall giant a few times. Eventually, that giant is going to turn around and stomp the penguins ass even if it was preoccupied with something else. Taking just ONE planet is just tempting fate. They wouldn't BEAT the IOM.

Thank you. I already brought this point up previously. Trust me DerSpeeder, the SC races would not, repeat, WOULD NOT just run into the IOM. They would run into a whole lot more shit. Like chaos. Which you didn't answer previously. The protoss, and just about anything with Psychic abilities, would get eaten by the Chaos gods.

Overall: Even with its distractions, SC wouldn't be able handle the WH40K universe because there is too much regardless of the IOM. Like the Necrons. They are more advanced than anything in SC. Hands down. Hell, they have the most advanced tech in the WH40K universe. The Imperium's ships get absolutely ****ed by their scout ships (they almost reached earth once). The only reason they aren't SUPER dangerous right now, is because they are, for the most part, still in stasis on all of their different tomb worlds. Sometimes they wake up; and then they kill everything.

So, against all convenience,(as I said before) you can't simply rule out the other races of WH40K because you want to. It's everything that SC has VS everything WH40K has. There is no "only compare it to the Imperium because I say so" argument. Hell bring in the UED if you want. It won't save them.

I didn't even notice that he said that. But it makes me wonder. We are not arguing what a hypothetical SC can do to WH40K.

We are arguing their superiority from where they are now. SC are not in the pinnacle of their tech but neither is the IOM. The IOM does however have 39,000 years on a (relatively speaking) "baby" civilization such as those in SC.

Looks like I can't win...

Originally posted by Goldman010
First, as doan stated early on, a Lasgun can go through 3 meters of concrete,

Which makes them more powerful than C-14 Impaler rifle only if it would appear, that it penetrates only two meters. And what if it appeared, that it penetrates four or five?
Besides, it makes rather small difference in a fight between IG infantry, and Terran infantry, where the second one is fully equipped in power armours, and the Guardsmen are barely armoured. They would be torn apart.

Originally posted by Goldman010
I don't know what Marine armor is made of, but it's tough stuff.

Plasteel, I think

Originally posted by Goldman010
If zerglings can shred Terran Marines, then what does that say about their armor? Zerglings=Rippers, and rippers cant penetrate Space Marine armor.

This is of course based on an assumption, that Zerglings are really the equivalents of Rippers in terms of strength and armour penetration ability. Besides, the Zerglings, as other Zerg, do not shred through the armour directly, but are aiming at the weak spots.

Originally posted by Goldman010
There are about 100 Titans in the Imperium. They are comon during Crusades or WAAAGH's! like Armagedon.

One hundred per million planets? Small chance, that they would use it in potential strike force. But if they did - well, this would put SC races in deep shit, I admit.

Originally posted by Goldman010
Instances for comparisons are the only conductive way to go about this debate.

Yes, but it is not always so simple to compare them.

Originally posted by Goldman010
Unless you know all the stats of both sides weapons and capabilities, then it's the only way to go.

But is still a moot point, compared to situation, where we have a direct statement, that e.g. Yamato Cannon delivers X teratons of firepower, C-14 Impaler rifle shots penetrate through X meters of concrete, or flames fired from Perdition Flame Throwers can melt a few dozen of cubic meters of ice in X seconds.

Originally posted by Goldman010
Canon is canon, no matter what you think. It's called Sci-fi because it's Science fiction, so calling something a "lie" in fiction is a moot point.

OK, then look at it in this way - in one universe someone makes up a weapon, that can destroy a whole planet, literally. In second one, someone makes up a weapon, that can barely "drill" to the planet's core. Now, the first guy states, that his weapon delivers firepower of teratons, and the other one, that his weapon has firepower well above petatons. So what should we believe in in situations like this? And why not call one of those guys a liar?

Originally posted by Goldman010
Games are not lore, fluff or canon.

In case of their mechanics, maybe not.
In case of plot, they are.

Originally posted by Goldman010
Codex's are the most reliable, second is Black Library books.

As far as I know, even in those books there are informations that exclude each other, e.g. in terms of the length of Imperial Navy ships.

Originally posted by Goldman010
Nothing Starcraft has can stop those threats short of destroying worlds. And I mean completly destroy. A tomb comlex underground aint gonna feel the surface burning.

SC races can tolerate some level of casualties. During Great War, Terrans lost many planets, and yet they are still fine. Protoss are in a bit worse situation, but they still can deliver firepower of enough might to penetrate the whole planet, to its core (in that case, even the fact that tomb complexes are underground, won't help them).

Originally posted by Goldman010
The Tau only exist because of plot armor. And the fact that the Tyranids barged in.

But they still do exist.

Originally posted by Goldman010
We can't say anything about Lockdown untill we know how it works.

It puts the vehicle into some kinda force field.

Originally posted by Goldman010
I think it's fair to say if it can't penetrate the armor, than it doesent work. So Baneblades and Lemans are safe, unless the lockdown missle is some super powerful armor piercing dril that we don't know about.

Like I said earlier, it's not the question of armour. Lockdowns do not penetrate through it. They don't have to - they just release that force field close to the target, closing it in it. When McGregor Golding used that Lockdown on the Reaver, he didn't even aimed at it - he aimed above it.

Originally posted by Goldman010
keep in mind that if Starcraft had to invade, they would also end up runing into Orkz and the other enemies. More than enough to mess their sh@t up good.

There you assume, that they need to run into many races at once, while invading one planet. Didn't doan_m explain to me, that conflicts like that in Dark Crusade aren't common?

Originally posted by Jack Bleak
No, the Imperium is not technically the most powerful faction in the universe... but they are like tied for first because they are assaulted on all sides all the time and still beat ass.

No, I didn't say that it is technically the most powerful. I said that it is the most powerful in general - where its technology is not enough, there is still its sheer size, manpower, and industrial power, along with insane belief, that can be used to turn them into fanatic madmen (Space Marines is the best example).

Originally posted by Jack Bleak
Now, just for clarification; what is it you are trying to prove? I'm serious, I'm not trying to sound condescending. I just mean like; you want to prove that starcraft is more powerful and would whip WH40K's ass?

Noooo...

Originally posted by Jack Bleak
or that they could take a certain amount of worlds

Maybe, but haaaardly.

Originally posted by Jack Bleak
or just be a general thorn in the ass to the IOM?

If you would refer to Tau also as "thorn", then yes, let's put it this way.

Originally posted by Jack Bleak
Because if that's the case, the IOM has been dealing with plenty of more dangerous thorns for far longer than any of the Starcraft races.

This won't change the fact, that Terrans, or Protoss, or Zerg, would remain a thorn.

Originally posted by Jack Bleak
The IOM would probably not really notice such a tiny place like the koprulu sector until they encroached on their worlds.

Probably. Or they would launch local equivalent of Damocles Gulf Crusade, just in order to cease it halfway because of another threat.

Originally posted by Jack Bleak
Doan already answered this. They would have utterly wiped out the Tau. No questions asked. (Because, regardless of technology, their empire is way too small to really do anything to the IOM. How fitting for this argument). They had to stop and deal with a Tyranid hive fleet because...well...they are WAY MORE dangerous than the Tau.

Tau still exist, anyway. So why shouldn't another small empire - something like Terran Dominion or UED - exist there.

Originally posted by Jack Bleak
I know this because I remember that the largest Brood (I think Jormungandr) had like 6,500,000 zerg in it. So even if all the broods were that large, and you combined them into one; they would barely scratch the surface of the numbers contained within a Hive fleet.

Still, there is no telling, how many of those broods are there. Basing on the number of ingame player colours is a moot point.

Originally posted by Jack Bleak
They were NIGH unstoppable. NIGH.

Fair enough.
I like expressions like this - they mean much, and nothing simultaneously.
That undead dragon from Gothic 2 was also described to be "nigh" invincible, and yet when I played as a mage, two spells were enough to send him back to hell.

Originally posted by Jack Bleak
The IOM won that because they had access to all the other tech that was available in the Dark Age of Technology. Which, if I may remind you, made them nearly invincible.

So what is it exactly that prevented them from rebuilding that technology and further development?
Common brainwashing performed by Adeptus Ministorum?

Originally posted by Jack Bleak
Then we come to the Zerg again. Yes they screwed the protoss, but the protoss sure as hell couldn't beat the imperium.

I meant Xel'Naga, not the Protoss.

Originally posted by Jack Bleak
A single strike force? Cause trouble? A "single" strike force sent by the imperium would be so much more massive than anything the SC races could put together. Remember the Ratio? 5000:1? Say each of those 5000 worlds sent ONE capital ship. ONE. they would be sending 5000 capital battlebarges (which you can't lock down) on your ass at a MINIMUM.

So much for theory, what about practice?
If a single battlebarge, with around 300 Space Marines as a land strike force, is considered to be an expedition suitable for conquering an entire planet, where six other factions are fighting, then I'm not so sure about those thousands of them.
And what's 300 men in power armours, if single Terran Dominion (hell, why TD already, Kel-Morian Combine or Umojan Protectorate would be enough) can send thousands of them?

Because I see absolutely zero evidence that has been brought up to the debate that has led me to believe otherwise?


Glassing of Chau Sara? Brood War intro? Dragoon Raid of a Terran Base cinematic? And had it been canon, the SC Ghost intro. Believe it or not, Starcraft novels actually does hace instances that actually shows the firepower of what weapons are capable of. 40K is not the only one that actually has demonstable instances that can be used to get a benchmark. The various Star Wars novels have it, the Hyperion novels have it, and hell some obscure Tiberium novel that I can barely remember has it as well.




You're the one who went in here arguing in favor of Starcraft here. It would be your job of course to be able to substantiate your claims with reasonable evidence and bring it to the debate. My part in this debate is to contest your claims in favor of 40k with the evidence that i've found and put it up against your claims. That's how common and proper debate forms go.



Actually I only brought up Titans to handily establish that 40k has superior ground level firepower. Something tells me that the Terrans would be of little threat that they wouldn't even consider bringing a titan to the fight.

A few hundred was an absolute minimum figure that I derived from the average number of known legions and how many titans there are per legion. And when one considers the absurd firepower of the Legion along with its durability its of no wonder that its only sent to the biggest possible cluster****s in the galaxy.

Except all evidence is to the contrary. They actually HAVE instances that are quantifiable. Whether Blizzard had done it deliberately or not is absolutely irrelevant. Hell, the moment that they so much as mentioned hyper velocity Gauss rounds there just begging for their firepower to be quantified in hard numbers. Hell you can even take a look at this instance in I,Mengsk:

And then there's this in Liberty's Crusade:

Now, why in the world that would come of as unquantifiable despite that we see a Gauss rifle shredding doors and over penetrating zerglings would come off as unquantifiable is beyond me.



Why would you think so?


And that's why you think so. You don't have to have the firebat melt a certain amount of ice. What matters is that its calcable and that it comes out to the same unit of measurement that the meltagun comes out.




NOT plasma. The ammo, while helpful in analysis, in this case we would have to look at the end result of whatever it fired on.


No. Because i'm not hiding behind anything the lack of evidence. I'm contesting the evidence in question that would lead one to believe that bracing for the recoil would be indicative of its firepower without any idea as to WHAT its bracing itself against exactly.

What nonsense is their to it? Aside from the fact that its a Starcraft vs 40k internet debate, what makes it so damn nonsensical to compare the two?




No. It means that the gun in question would be capable of flying right through concrete, overpenetrating people, be a pain in the ass for armor divisions had it been put up to practice, despite its relatively small size. THATS what it means. Saying it would mean nothing is just absurd since it presents a signficant imbalance of power.


Remember what I said about the firebat? A few quotes up?


Absolutely.


Still doesn't change the fact that its still a comparison and a rough idea of the outcome. Personal emotional responses irrelevant.


You basically tried to establish that infantry killing weapons would penetrate 40k weapons in that quote.


Again what would that even mean about the density of the Zerg units in question. That was the original questions and how it would help establish the number of Zerg per triangle.


Yet Mutalisk in that instance still had the decency to travel in close swarms. Close enough that they could be well established by the Terran sensors as single entity/red triangle.

Warhammer would OWN StarCraft. Warload titans can not be beaten. I Laugh when I see a StarCraft unit in a video or when some one is playing it. Because they are SUCH Rip-Offs of 40k units.

Originally posted by doan_m
So in otherwords, you have to nitpick a specific skirmish with specific tactics in order to drive your point home instead of looking at the general grand strategy of it?

Because it is the best situation to compare, which strategy is more efficient.

Originally posted by doan_m
Yeah i'm having a hard time following this line of reasoning. The point is to..... win?

See above. If someone won the war just because of the fact, that he has a lot more materials, while his strategy was a crap, why should we commend him for that strategy?

Originally posted by doan_m
How often will you expect a tyranid fleet to intervene on your behalf to save you from total annihilation. Even better. How would not expect that Tyranid fleet to not notice your side?

It happened. Thus you can't exclude, that IoM would cease a crusade because of similar threat. Not only Tyranid threat. Also Necron threat. Exceptionally mighty Black Crusade threat.

Originally posted by Yoda2287
I Laugh when I see a StarCraft unit in a video or when some one is playing it. Because they are SUCH Rip-Offs of 40k units.

U-huh. Yes, that follows.

Ok, this argument is getting far too tiresome, and I thnk it is time to remind about the vs. thread. Closed.