the 12,000 man 501st temple purge

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Null ARC Avis
this is operation: Knightfall. General vader will not be joining us today. The jedi are unsuspecting so we will catch them off guard, though the advantege will not last long. we estimate there are about 6,000 jedi in the temple so we have a huge adantage in numbers, but 2000 are knights and 500 masters, with 3500 padawans. there are also 6000 younglings but they have worthless training sabers and will go down without a fight. Lets move men! - Commander Appo before the Raid of the Jedi Temple

Blaxican Hydra
Clones get curbstomped.

Advent
What the hell? I'm ranked in the 20,000's for Dead Rising. I'm in the top 20,000! Wewt.

Blaxican Hydra
What are we talking about again?

Advent
The 501st vs. Jedi.

Blaxican Hydra
...


Does this have to do with that girl from Russia? because I swear she told me she was 19.

darthsith19
Well, they are unsuspecting so lets say before the Jedi can even react 20 padawans, 15 Knights and 10 Masters drop dead. Then if each Master can deal with 5 Clones and each Knight can deal with 4 and each Padawan can deal with one then that's all the Clones dead. Now, I'm sure most of the Padawans can kill one Clone at least and some of the older, more esperienced ones could probably kill 2+. As for the Knights, maybe a couple would die trying to take 4 Clones out but most of them I could see taking at least 4 possibly more, same with the Masters and if anybody good is there like Cin he could probably take lots of Clones out. Plus the 6000 Younglings, training sabers arn't worthless, they can do damage, I could see the 6000 combined easily taking down at least a thousand troopers, that's 6 on 1 so they should be able to do that for sure. So really I don't think this would be to hard for the Jedi at all.

Quinlan_Vos
Well, here's how I would plan out the operation:

Since the Younglings are not match for 501st, I would only send a limited number of troops to attack them.
The Padawans would probably be with their Jedi Knight/Masters, or probably at the traing centers. However,
the Jedi Masters would be the most dangerous threat, so they should be relentlessly overwhelmed.
Then, the Jedi Knights will follow suit.

5000 Clone Troopers to slay the Jedi Masters (and any of their Padawans)
4500 Clone Troopers to slay the Jedi Knights (and any of their Padawans)
1700 Clone Troopers to slay the Younglings
800 Clone Troopers will destroy all equipment, ships, and weaponry the Jedi can use. They will also seal and
guard all ways to escape the temple.

Casualties: I would say that 1 Jedi Master= Will Kill 5 501st
1 Jedi Knight= Will Kill 3 501st
1 Padawan = Will Kill 1 501st
1 Security Guard= Will Kill 1 501st
Plus 200 Troopers are killed due to Jedi luck


With this statistic, the Clone Troopers get destroyed. However, since the 501st brought artilery, I believe they
will kill many Jedi.

I would say the Jedi win, but very few will survive.

Blaxican Hydra
Well, they are unsuspecting so lets say before the Jedi can even react 20 padawans, 15 Knights and 10 Masters drop dead.

No way in hell. The Jedi Masters sense the malice of the CLone Troopers from when they first enter the temple and immediatly take charge, alerting all Jedi in the Temple that the Clones are attacking them.

The Clones enter the Temple guns blazing, but because the Jedi were warned early they are all ready, and they lose maybe 10 younglings and (Most likely not) a Padawan, before they slaughter at least 50-60 clones.

Then if each Master can deal with 5 Clones and each Knight can deal with 4 and each Padawan can deal with one then that's all the Clones dead. Now, I'm sure most of the Padawans can kill one Clone at least and some of the older, more esperienced ones could probably kill 2+. As for the Knights, maybe a couple would die trying to take 4 Clones out but most of them I could see taking at least 4 possibly more,

I would double everything you put their. If one youngling alone could take out 4 clones it should be easy as hell for a padawan to kill 8, and a Knight could probably take out 12, with a Master at 15.

Honestly, the clones get tooled so hard.

Advent
Originally posted by darthsith19
Plus the 6000 Younglings, training sabers arn't worthless, they can do damage, I could see the 6000 combined easily taking down at least a thousand troopers, that's 6 on 1 so they should be able to do that for sure.

First of all, even if you want to put the ratio at 6:1 - a thousand clone troopers together would be able to defeat Jedi younglings with ease. Training saber or not, they don't even know how to block blaster bolts coming from trained soldiers, the most they do is train with some remote droid that doesn't fire continuously, and has no tactical ability whatsoever. The clone troopers won't engage them in melee, and they'd be able to take out the younglings no problems.

That's a bit ridiculous to say the younglings will take out even near a thousand. Honestly, Jedi younglings cannot block blaster fire from multiple directions, they only know the basics of the basic Form I. Unless somehow Ashla is going to help:

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/461/ashladh3.jpg

They don't cause much of a threat, if any. Clone troopers have grenades, and repeating ranged weaponry - things younglings have yet to even see, let alone defend against. I mean, a bunch of kids - most likely no older than six - killing trained clone troopers, that have fought in many battles and have tactics nailed down? Yeah, right.

Blaxican Hydra
Yep, even Advent agrees. The younglings are a pretty formidable force.

Lyoko Saver
if i was heading the 501st i'd call in some one with a force sig like vader then i would go in cuz if u got vader or atleast a force signature similar to vader the jedi wouldn't be as alert

darthsith19
Just like the Coukcnil Members sensed Order 66 seconds before they died, right?

That one was Zett, who caught them off guard and also just happens to be GL's son. Most Padawans arn't that strong.

They have a chance at blocking them, Zett (yeah, I know he's an exceptional Padawan) blocked a few, the Youngling's could charge a trooper and while he'd kill 5 the sixth one'd get to him and cut him in 1/2 or the Youngling's could sneak up behind the Clones while their firing on the Jedi Masters and Knights and do some real damage.

On the contary, the Youngling's in the bear clan are 8 years old, so mostly not older than 6 is a dumb thing to say. And I think you highly underestimate the power of the Younglings, they blocked laser bolts from the remote Droids as good as ANH Luke did and he dropped how many Sotrm Troopers while on the Death Star?

General Kon-El
Originally posted by darthsith19
Just like the Coukcnil Members sensed Order 66 seconds before they died, right?
Anakin and/or Sidious could have been clouding the Jedi's thoughts and feelings.

Blaxican Hydra
He WAS clouding, Mace even admitted that their perception was "clouded" by the darkside.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Blaxican Hydra
...


Does this have to do with that girl from Russia? because I swear she told me she was 19.

Bro, age is just a #. Don't let anybody, not even cops or the judge tell you otherwise.

Advent
Originally posted by darthsith19
They have a chance at blocking them, Zett (yeah, I know he's an exceptional Padawan) blocked a few,

Yes, Zett "Not a youngling" Jukassa blocked a few. And you yourself admit he's an exceptional padawan, so how does padawan correspond to youngling?

Anyways, because Zett "Padawan" Jukassa can block a few shots, the younglings can, too? Faulty logic, my friend.



And they'd die. You fail to realize it's not a single clone trooper per square mile. There's going to be hundreds of them packed together, or at least close by. To think the youngling can somehow dodge repeated blaster fire is outright ridiculous.



There's not just going to be a single clone trooper with no support around. So, why do you keep acting as if it's a singular battle? The ratio is 6:1, it's not a 6 on 1 battle, because there's going to be hundreds of soldiers.

And really, clone troopers have grenades. We've seen Clone troopers in packs kill Jedi knights, and such. How are younglings going to cause any real damage? Your estimates of 1,000 is ridiculous. That's really all there is to it. I'm not saying it's impossible for them to take out some, but a thousand is a joke.



Hint: There's thousands of soldiers. I doubt those thousands will just be facing towards Jedi Knights and masters alone, and not scanning the perimeter.



Wow, they are eight years old in the Bear Clan? Is that why Ashla - the six year old youngling - is in the Bear Clan?



Not at all. You overestimate them, and think they are some kind of "force to be reckoned with". They aren't. It's that simple.



Oh wow. Laser bolts that aren't even powerful enough to singe clothing. And remote droids don't fire continuously, and they don't have tactics. Also, show me where they have ten remote droids firing at them at one time. Oh? You can't? Great.

And the remote droids, as I've already explained, are shit compared to Clone troopers and their equipment.



With a lightsaber in ANH? None, because he didn't even use a lightsaber on the first Death Star. He used a blaster from when they arrived, and disguised themselves up until they took off.

Blaxican Hydra
Thats what I told the judge...

And now I've truly felt what it meant t be in "federal punding in the ass" prison.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Blaxican Hydra
Thats what I told the judge...

And now I've truly felt what it meant t be in "federal punding in the ass" prison.

Eh this country is engulfed with liberal nazis. If the girl says she's 19, or she signed a contract(I have plenty), or if you thought she was 19, you shouldn't even be in court. In fact who cares if she was legal, it was LOVE i'm sure.. Love knows no bounds.

Blaxican Hydra
...


I was joking.

Tangible God
This place is diminshing its sense of humour.

Blaxican Hydra
Indeed.

Captain REX
Lack of Vader means lack of surprise, and lack of psycho-killer-leader.

It would be tough, but the clones will probably not completely purge the temple.

Null ARC Avis
the younglings dont stand a chance. as soon as they charge, a clone will pop their ass. what are they going to do? use yodas singing and dancing?
Jump, Jump, Twirl. Jump, Jump, Twirl. Buddy youre a boy, make a big noise playing in the street...

jollyjim311
If it was the actual Purge, then, Vader wasn't needed. He was just there to kill Jedi and Palpatine had to make sure that Padme would never forgive him. Anyway, even with a surprise, the odds don't look good for the clones. Ki Adi took out a few when he was caught semi-surprised. Still, it's only 1 Jedi to every 2 clones, plus younglings. Not that younglings will count, I mean, the 6:1 ratio might be decent if the clones were unarmed, but, the Jedi will just send them into hiding anyway. They won't say "Hey, how old are you guys? Six? Good, all ten of you might be able to gang bang that trooper over there with your crappy training lightsabers." Even with Artillery and heavy weaponry and such, in just plain ground combat, the Jedi could take it. I mean, heavy weapons would be good to take out like, ships or other big guns, but, just armed with lightsabers, the Jedi look like they could win this. The Jedi wouldn't be all standing in one big room with their backs turned. They would be jumping from higher levels and navigating around the temple (which they know better than the clones) and counter ambushing.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Blaxican Hydra
...


I was joking.

So was I.

Blaxican Hydra
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
So was I.

...


Did I just get punked?

Darth Sexy
MTV style

Blaxican Hydra
F*ck.

darthsith19
Younglings can use the Force. They can block laser bolts. And if the other Clones turn their guns at them then they'll be turning their backs on the other Jedi, who will then slaughter them from behind.

And the others will be to busy getting their asses kicked by Jedi Knights and Masters and will be unable to help the lone trooper who is jumped by a few Younglings.

You underestimate the power of the Younglings. As I stated before, Luke was no better than they were and yet he killed many Stormtroopers in ANH.

Like they'll have any opportunity to scan the perimeter while their in the middle of losing a battle.

The Younglingsd in the bear Clan can be 8 years olds, though - their all 4 to 8 years old.

Yes, Remote Droids don't do any lasting damage if your hit by them, but their mean to be as realistic as possible, and there's no way 10 troopers can attack each one at a time, there are 6000 Younglings and only 12000 Troopers!

Yes, the disguise helped, but not when Luke and Leia and running away from a squad of troopers and "take a wrong turn" or at the end after Ben "dies" and Luke goes up against 4 at once and kills, what, 2 of them? And yeah, he used a blaster, there's nothing stopping the Younging's from picking up blasters off of fallen troopers, either.

jollyjim311
Okay younglings will be hiding, they've never used guns, and using an automatic heavy gun will probably do more damage than good.

Anyway, remember in ROTS when Yoda and Kenobi beat the Hell out of all those clones? Sure no one in the temple is as good as them, but, if someone like... I don't know, Cin Drallig got a jump on some clones, he would take out a bunch in a similar fashion.

Darth Kreiger
The only reason the Clones won was because they had Vader, and they drastically outnumbered them. There were only a few hundred Jedi Knights verse a Legion(5000 men)

Advent
Originally posted by darthsith19
Younglings can use the Force.

So can Jedi master Ki-Adi-Mundi. So, can Coleman Trebor. So, can Roblio Darte. So, can the Jedi padawans, knights, and masters the clones gun down. Like I was saying, your point? They are not adept Force users. Get this through your skull, my friend. Their Force pushes aren't even going to cause any damage!

Younglings are not powerful. They are not a Force to be reckoned with. For Buddha's sake, just stop being so ignorant to the fact of the matter.




No, they can block laser bolts that aren't even powerful, given they don't even singe clothing or knock one back. Are you going to tell me a remote droid's weaponry is on par with a blaster rifle? Even a blaster pistol? L-O-friggin'-L.

Grenades that will blow quite a big number of younglings to hell and back, given they are not physically strong. Blaster rifles that are of repeating fire, and actually blast holes through people. And look at it this simple way:

A training remote droid is like dirt compared to Clone troopers. Unless, somehow, five remote droids can take out trained Jedi. And seven remote droids can take out a trained Jedi Master.

Puh-leaze. Quit being so daft.



Let's see:

12,000 Clone troopers. Yeah, it's highly likely all 12,000 will be facing one single direction. Get real. Clone troopers are more tactical than Jedi. There's no way in hell 12,000 Clone troopers are facing one direction, even a number like 1,000 is "f*cking" ridiculous.

Quit. Being. So. Daft.

You absolutely have no argument. And you're being completely unrealistic.



"Lone trooper"? Again, you seem to think that 11,999 Clone troopers will occupy their time with just focusing on Jedi Masters and Knights. And suddenly, they send one trooper out to scan the area.

This is unrealistic. A lone trooper could take out a number of younglings before even becoming close to overwhelmed.

Let me explain simply:

The. 501st. Has. Trained. And. Fought. In. Wars.

Hence,

They. Have. More. Experience.

And because

Younglings. Have. Never. Dealt. With. A. Real. Threat.

They will

D. I. E.

Plus we also know

Heavy. Weaponry. Will. Decimate. Them. With. Ease.



No. I don't underestimate them. You are unrealistic, you overestimate them, and you underestimate the 501st. Plus, you have no basis for your argument other than a remote droid (as if it compares to a clone troopers), that they are friggin' four to eight years old, and that Luke in ANH used a blaster, not a lightsaber. LOL!



LUKE DID NOT USE A LIGHTSABER IN ANH, SO QUIT MAKING SHIT UP, DS.

Luke didn't use a lightsaber at all in ANH to fight Stormtroopers. So, your point collapses. Quit acting like such a noob. I already destroyed this point.

Now, I'm tempted to say you're either:

a.) Delusional.
b.) A fanboy of younglings.
c.) Need your spectacles examined.

Which one? I'm guessing all three, but hey - how would I know?



Yes, because Younglings are trained to scan the area. LOL. Younglings are not soldiers, I don't know what you don't get about it.



So, you lied. And now are changing your story. You said that "younglings in the Bear Clan are eight". Ashla is in the Bear Clan, she is six. Mari is the Bear Clan, she is seven.

Quit making shit up. Of course they can be, but not all of them are. So, your point collapses. And kids are kids. Your point?



Oh really? Do Clone troopers fire once every minute? Realistic my ass.

If you can tell in which ways a remote droid is even near on par with a Clone troopers, I'd submit you are right. But of course, finding a valid reason is hard enough because there isn't one.



10 Troopers could take out 50 younglings, probably more. So, what are you talking about? Let's see, 6,000 younglings that don't even know what to do will probably be grouped tight. Throw grenades, put up a rocket launcher. Yeah, that'll wipe them out easy.

Repeating fire > Younglings with ease. Using a ratio is 6:1 - one clone troopers can take out six younglings. So, I don't know what you keep babbling on about. And it's not necessarily going to be just 1,000. They could definitely add an extra five hundred, however, they don't need it.

Your wrong. It's that simple. You've resorted to making shit up, and being completely unrealistic. ANH Luke has shit to do with younglings, given he never used a lightsaber on the Death Star. So, just drop it.

Younglings are not warriors, they have never fought. They aren't even physically strong. And as well, you are basing your opinion off the fact of a remote droid. Wow. Your logic is fubar, DS. Please do not respond until you can formulate a valid argument. So far, you've just given me bullshit.



Again, What is your point? Luke never used a lightsaber in ANH. So, your point collapses.



Using a blaster, he NEVER BLOCKED BLASTER BOLTS FROM STORMTROOPERS, fanboy.



1.) There's always the fact younglings have never handled a gun.
2.) There's always the fact if they pick up guns, they will die just as easily because they won't have a defense.
3.) There's always the fact you're unrealistic to the highest degree I've ever seen in my entire life. IRL, and online. But that's irrelevant, what is relevant is that you're wrong. Prove a youngling can even operate a gun, let alone kill trained soldiers that have taken out thousands of battle droids.
4.) You're saying because ANH Luke killed Stormtroopers, Younglings will. Logical fallacy, and there's always the fact Luke is physically stronger than younglings by light years. Luke is smarter than younglings by light years.

Come back when you can formulate a proper retort. So far, you're just stating unrealistic things, and definitely overestimating younglings. Saying because Luke can do X, so can the younglings. Bullshit if I've ever heard it. Plus, you don't make sense anyways.

Sith Lord Windu
the more interesting point is what would happen if all 10,000 jedi were against, lets says for an example, 30,00-35,000 battle harderned stormtroopers. all the jedi who were arround the galaxy in ROTS were at the temple and they were stormed, anakin isn't around. who'd win?

by the way, younglings are sh*t, they would be sent to hide as they dont even have real(by real i mean sabers powerful enough to kill people) lightsabers.

Lyoko Saver
here is a batlle situation

Youngling: i blocked a blaster bolt
*inssert blaster sound and grenades*
Clone trooper: yea and about 10 more just hit u

Null ARC Avis
men, get in your vehicles, arm the tanks. we only have 500 of them, dont waste any! a lightsaber will cut a hole right through the top of them.
Commander Appo right before Operation Knightfall.

Darth Kreiger
Originally posted by Sith Lord Windu
the more interesting point is what would happen if all 10,000 jedi were against, lets says for an example, 30,00-35,000 battle harderned stormtroopers. all the jedi who were arround the galaxy in ROTS were at the temple and they were stormed, anakin isn't around. who'd win?

by the way, younglings are sh*t, they would be sent to hide as they dont even have real(by real i mean sabers powerful enough to kill people) lightsabers.


Well since Mace, Obi-Wan, and Yoda would be there, and other Masters/Knights that were very powerful(only reason most of them died was because of surprise) would be too, I think the Jedi would win that

Quinlan_Vos
No, Mace would be attacking Sidious along with Kolar, Fisto, and Tiin. Yoda's on Kashyyk and Obi-Wan is on Utapau.

And Vader is somewhere. Probably with Sids, his master.

darthsith19
Never said they were as good as Jedi Masters, but they can use the Force and can block laser bolts, which we have seen them do.

So just because the remote droid's laser bolts don't have as much stopping power as a blaster means that they are easier to deflect, huh. What ever gave you that idea? As long as the speed of the bolt is equally as fast they should be just as hard to block.

I see no reason why a Youngling would not be able to push a grenade back with the Force. Yes, the repeating blasters would be tougher to block that a remote droid's bolts, but if nothing else while the Clone(s) are firing on a bunch of Younglings the other Jedi will be slaughtering them from behind.

From what we've seen of the remote droid's they are just as accurate as any Clone Trooper is. No, a group of remote droid's couldn't take out a Jedi Master, if there were a bunch of remote droids behind Ki-Adi istead of Clones they could probably at least hit him like the clones did. The reason they couldn't kill him are because their laser bolts arn't deadly.

They all seemed to be facing the same direction when they marched into the temple in ROTS, and when they attacked Yoda and Obi-Wan later in the film and on Geonosis alot of Clones were facing the same direction, so your arguement holds no water.

No, but if all 12000 are firing on the Knights, Masters and Padawans and suddenly a group of Youngling's jumps a Clone from behind the Clone dies. They won't be able to kill the Younglong's because they will be to busy firing on the other Jedi.

That's a riduculous assumption. Stormtroopers have trained and fought in wars, Luke never dealt with a real threat and yet he was able to kill many of them. I'm sure Zett had never faced a real threat before, and how many troopers did he kill again? Five?


I never made any shit up. I even said "And yeah, he used a blaster". I never recall saying that he used his lightsaber on the Stormtroopers.

Um, why are you talking about Younglings? We're talking about Clones being trained to scan the area, not Younglings. You do know what your own arguement was, don't you?


I'd love to hear where you got their ages from.

All kids are kids? So your saying a 4 yeare old will be as strong as an 8 year old?

I don't know what movie you've been watching, but if you went and watched ANH there are times when the Remote Droid fires about one time per second or faster. Once per minute my ass.

Accuracy.

Yeah, probably, but only if while they were shooting at them a Jedi Master didn't come behind them and kill them all.

Unless, of course, another Jedi leads them into battle or tells them what to do. "While the rest of us are attacking the Clones, sneak up behind them and kill them."

You're the one who said their will be 10 Clones on every Youngling, which is impossible cause there's not that many Clones to begin with!

Your starting to remind me of Sorgo with your continuous insults.

Wow, random yelling and nonsense, I already said he never used a lightsaber, you need to read more carefully. I already admittied that he used a blaster, not a lightsaber. So that comment was unneeded.


I'd like to see where Luke has before ANH and it's not like it's that hard, just point and shoot. Even an Ewok is seen using a gun in ROTJ, so now I suppoose your going to tell me that they've used guns before, right?

Yes, but thay can take some troopers with them. They can also shoot at trooper from a distance while the troops are busy engaging the other Jedi in combat.

Blah, blah, blah, resorted to using Sorgo's tactics, have we, advent? Everybody knows how to use a gun, all you do it pull the trigger.

Luke is on an equal status as the Youngling's are as far as his Force training goes. Yeah, he was stronger, but last time I checked physical strength is irrevelent when your using a gun, a crippled man in a wheel chair could use a gun. So you don't think Youngling's will know how to pull a trigger? Wow.

When was Sorgo banned again?

True, but they could use guns and kill some troopers.

And then a Jedi Knight cuts the troopers head off. So for the loss on a single Youngling a trooper died. That's good, because of a single Youngling one trooper has been killed.

And when you respond to this do so intelligently and make sure you know what your replying to, don't do any more Sorgo's.

Advent
Originally posted by Advent
Come back when you can formulate a proper retort. So far, you're just stating unrealistic things, and definitely overestimating younglings. Saying because Luke can do X, so can the younglings. Bullshit if I've ever heard it. Plus, you don't make sense anyways.

And this is the most hilarious part of the argument, you said this in response to the above:

Originally posted by darthsith19
True, but they could use guns and kill some troopers.

Darth Kreiger
4-8 year olds with guns, lol

Null ARC Avis
luke knew how to use a gun, remember ANH, he had the rifle in the speeder? And he said he was the best shot on the whole rock? remember that too?

Advent
Originally posted by darthsith19
Never said they were as good as Jedi Masters, but they can use the Force and can block laser bolts, which we have seen them do.

When have we seen them block blaster bolts from Clone troopers again? Never? Awesome. When have we seen them block repeated blaster fire from trained soldiers again? Never? Awesome.

And again:

Originally posted by Advent
So can Jedi master Ki-Adi-Mundi. So, can Coleman Trebor. So, can Roblio Darte. So, can the Jedi padawans, knights, and masters the clones gun down. Like I was saying, your point? They are not adept Force users. Get this through your skull, my friend. Their Force pushes aren't even going to cause any damage!



Probably the fact that they don't even fire repeatedly, and the fact it's highly doubtful weapons made specifically for the army of the Republic aren't quicker than a simple remote droid.



I'm fairly certain a Jedi Knight can block two remote droids' fire. Why can't they block two Clone troopers'? See: Order 66 on the temple. One of the first Jedi we see gets owned by two troopers. Hell, he doesn't even deflect any back at the trooper no more than a yard away from him!



Yes, I'm sure Jedi younglings will be as aware of the grenades as any other Jedi. And I'm also positive they'd even know WTF it is. If you lob a grenade up, tell me - how is a Jedi youngling even going to sense that it's there while they're being repeatedly fired on?



For a Jedi youngling to block - they'd be near impossible. Unless you can show me valid proof that those little twits can block repeated fire from trained soldiers.



Originally posted by Advent
Let's see:

12,000 Clone troopers. Yeah, it's highly likely all 12,000 will be facing one single direction. Get real. Clone troopers are more tactical than Jedi. There's no way in hell 12,000 Clone troopers are facing one direction, even a number like 1,000 is "f*cking" ridiculous.

Quit. Being. So. Daft.

You absolutely have no argument. And you're being completely unrealistic.



Is that why they aim at Luke's leg? Yes, and you must realize that remote droids are dirt compared to the skill of a Clone trooper. That's like saying because I can dodge a bullet in an open field from a guy that just picked up a gun, I can dodge a bullet from a trained sniper that has killed thousands.



Ki-Adi-Mundi was turned around. So, where do you get "hit him from behind"?

He was killed facing forward, and the Clones never opened fire while he was turned around.



And they also suck. You realize gunfighters use remotes as practice? Now, if a gunslinger tests their accuracy againt a remotes, then that would mean they'd test to see if they're better, and they have proven that. See: Arms & Equipment book.



Yes, because there was 12,000 of them, right? And when they attacked the temple, they weren't all facing the same direction. See: Revenge of the Sith movie. And you're also plainly a liar. On Kashyyyk, when we see the battlefield they're all over the place. And also, on whatever

So, tell me - how can my argument "hold no water" when we've never seen 12,000 Clone troopers face one way unless the enemy couldn't come behind them?

An easy explanation is that the battlefield looked like this:

Republic Army

----------------

Enemy Forces

So, what need would they even have to turn around? As we see on Kashyykk, they are scattered because the battlefield is not simply like that. In the Jedi temple clip we see, they are not all one way.



And as I said, it would be smart to dispatch 1,000 Clone troopers to take care of them with ease, and then return to battle.



Yes, I'm sure it's ridiculous to assume five and eight year old kids will be able to overcome a thousand trained soldiers.



He killed a few of them. Not "many". Hell, he even gave his blaster to Chewbacca when he was released, LOL.



Oh yeah, I forgot taking out about four of them by doing a Samurai roll from behind, when they didn't expect a thing.

And no, don't say "oh a youngling can do that, what then?!" because there's always the fact their lightsabers are training sabers, and it's unlikely to happen with 12,000 troops around. And then there's always the fact you, yourself, stated that:

Originally posted by darthsith19
That one was Zett, who caught them off guard and also just happens to be GL's son. Most Padawans arn't that strong.

They have a chance at blocking them, Zett (yeah, I know he's an exceptional Padawan) blocked a few,

Defeating your own points, I see. "Most aren't that strong", "exceptional padawan", "off guard". Try it again.



Yeah, only after I pointed it out to you. You tried to pass it off like he used a lightsaber. Want to see your original point?

Originally posted by darthsith19
And I think you highly underestimate the power of the Younglings, they blocked laser bolts from the remote Droids as good as ANH Luke did and he dropped how many Sotrm Troopers while on the Death Star?

Oh? That seems to heavily imply he used a lightsaber. Saying ANH Luke is as good with as blocking with a lightsaber as younglings, and he "dropped" Storm troopers.

Sorry, but that heavily, like beyond belief, implies that Luke used a lightsaber. Tell me, what would the point bringing that up be? He blocked blaster bolts as good as younglings? Okay, I agree, but the "and he dropped how many" part completely implies he used a lightsaber, and thus younglings will.

Yeah, it's called "implication".



Sorry, I got lost in all your bullshit. It all looks the same to me. Anyways, to answer your response properly: Yes, how would they not be able to scan the area? Did it ever occur to you



Unless, of course, another Jedi leads them into battle or tells them what to do. "While the rest of us are attacking the Clones, sneak up behind them and kill them."



Oh really? I said that? Care to show where, instead of making shit up? In fact, here's what I said:

Originally posted by Advent
10 Troopers could take out 50 younglings, probably more. So, what are you talking about?

So, ten troopers can take out fifty, "probably more". How does that equal 10 troops to every one youngling? Oh? You were making shit up in an attempt to discredit the point?

Wonder-friggin'-ful.



Yeah, I'm sure I am. Good tactic, but a failed attempt. If I just insulted you without arguing, I could be considered Sorgo. However, I actually argue while insulting. There's a difference.

Advent
1.) Read my point way above on this. You never said he used a blaster until I pointed it out to you. You heavily implied he did, and I proved that.
2.) "Read more carefully"? Okay, where in this first talk about downing Stormtroopers did you say the phrase "Luke used a blaster":

Originally posted by darthsith19
And I think you highly underestimate the power of the Younglings, they blocked laser bolts from the remote Droids as good as ANH Luke did and he dropped how many Sotrm Troopers while on the Death Star?

Ah, nowhere to be found. You implied completely that he did use a lightsaber, given the context of the sentence. X did A as good as Y, and X killed B amount of people. You never stated what X used.

3.) How in the world can you "yell" over the internet? Can you hear my voice when I type?



See above, and even further above. "Implicate".



Originally posted by Null ARC Avis
luke knew how to use a gun, remember ANH, he had the rifle in the speeder? And he said he was the best shot on the whole rock? remember that too?

Point and shoot, eh? So, I can shoot a sniper rifle as good as a trained assassin/mercenary that's killed hundreds? Good to know. I'll try that someday. Please.



They don't even know how to aim. We know that the CIS, who used droids as soldiers, didn't even always hit their mark. So, how in the f*cking world can Jedi younglings that don't even know what the f*ck to do, to it?



Resorting to bullshit, have we? And no, a "Sorgo tactic" wouldn't be arguing according to the people here (see the Battle Bar argument we had). I've always insulted with my arguments.



Yeah, they know how to aim it as well! They know how to hit their mark! Get real, and for one, it's highly unlikely, and equally unrealistic to think they'd even pick a gun up. When have we seen Jedi do that? Never?

And what reason would they even have to do that? As I said "UNREALISTIC".



Hey, last time I checked Force training has nothing to do with firing a f*cking gun, clown. So, what does Luke being "equal" to younglings in terms of Force training have to do with anything?

Oh? Nothing? Alright. You fault me for being irrelevant, however, you were, too. LOL.



When are you going to pull your head out of your ass again? And there's proof enough at EoD, and even here to see I'm not Sorgo. And you know I'm not Sorgo, you're just using a bullshit tactic. But, what can I expect.

And Sorgo never even talked like that. First off, I didn't even insult you. All I said was that your claims are "bullshit", and you haven't properly formulate a valid response - which is true enough. If that makes me "Sorgo", then yeah I am.

And the rest is simple bullshit.

Quinlan_Vos
When I was here originally, I liked Sorgo. He had good debating skill and he never underated Quinlan Vos.

Null ARC Avis
DS, please STFU. you are wrong. Luke knew how to use a blaster. youngling 572 does NOT. Younglings get pwned. in BF2 if you become a sniper and tell a troop to follow you to a sniping camp the AI trooper watches your back. if a computer can do it real soilders can. they are not stupid.

Lyoko Saver
Originally posted by darthsith19
And when you respond to this do so intelligently and make sure you know what your replying to, don't do any more Sorgo's.

dude i was just posting 3 lines of wat could of happened in the battle i wasn't saying that that clone wouldn't get owned by a random jedi style drive by so plz stop yelling u 2 and forget about who will win just think about how cool if that was a lvl in a game wer u could play as clone or jedi now that would be fun

Null ARC Avis
there is in BF2 on the computer.

Lyoko Saver
Originally posted by Null ARC Avis
there is in BF2 on the computer.

i know that u can play i mean like the whole entire temple every single room could be explored and u had multiple weapons and u have no real objectives except purge/save the temple and it was a situation more like this were u have 12k clones or 6k jedi and 6k younglins to fight with u at the same time and almost no lives now that would be fun on the hardest mode (I like challenges ok)

Null ARC Avis
here is a challenge for you. X+Y=Y what is X????

Lyoko Saver
Originally posted by Null ARC Avis
here is a challenge for you. X+Y=Y what is X????

i mean challenges in video games

John!attheDisco
X=0

Sith'ari
Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
When I was here originally, I liked Sorgo. He had good debating skill and he never underated Quinlan Vos.

Sorgo seems like quite a cool guy at EoD.

@DS, while Advent and Sorgo are pretty similar and I've had my suspicions in the past, I'm pretty sure they're not the same person.

Advent
How are we "similar"? Using insults? For one, I joined close to two months before Sorgo. So, what use would that be? Two, Sorgo is a guy. Unless there's a phallus I can't find. . .Three, I don't type like Sorgo and I've even argued against him lol, and four - it's obvious I'm not Sorgo, lol. Nothing more to it.

And Sith'ari, how can you have suspicions of someone that was banned months before you got here?

Sith'ari
You are pretty similar Advent - style of writing, sense of humour, debating tactics - and I had my suspicions mainly because you used to defend him when people like Spartan would say he was a bad debater etc.

However, you and Sorgo were at this site at the same time, and you seem to share different opinions, and I just don't see you and him being the same person.

Advent
Originally posted by Sith'ari
You are pretty similar Advent - style of writing,

Originally posted by Soren the Mage
Obviously I have to repeat myself because you're not quite getting it clearly.


Does it mention the scripts not being Canon? All I see it mention is novelisations and interpretations.

Proof of Absence isn't Absence of proof, Anomaly. Get that through your head.

The script explains specific detail of what movie characters say and what they do - The final draft, of course.


The script is another word for THE MOVIE IN READING FORM.

So yes, thanks for the bold revision there. I think you need to re-read it.

Similar? Not in the least bit. I don't randomly capitalize, double space every sentence, and I quote by point. So, you can check that off the list.



Yeah, probably.



Debating? I insult with my arguments, which is somewhat similar. But I also provide more proof and more detail, and post numerous scans to back up my posts. So, not really.



1.) He was a good debater. Nothing wrong with defending that.
2.) I defended him once, because some people have no right to even talk shit.

The only thing we have in common is insulting complete morons. But hey, it's fun! Everyone should do it.

Sith'ari
'Similar? Not in the least bit. I don't randomly capitalize, double space every sentence, and I quote by point. So, you can check that off the list.'

Well you see, when I say writing style I mean the way you formulate your sentences - the way he quotes, double spaces and capitalises certain words doesn't really come under that.

Advent
Either way, it doesn't really matter. How can I be the same person, and argue with myself then? Though, a split personality is always a possibility, lol. Horrible assumption by darthsith in a last resort tactic. If arguing that Maul beat the shit out of Kenobi is the same as Sorgo's Kenobi beat the shit out of Maul, then okay.

Sith'ari
Oh I know, I'm almost definite that you're not the same person.

darthsith19
Originally posted by Advent
And this is the most hilarious part of the argument, you said this in response to the above:
How is that hilarious?

When did he say he was the best shot on the rock? And when did he ever use a gun? he had a gun but got beaten to the ground easily, no proof that he ever used it.

So I guess because Luke never bolcks laser bolts until SOTE we should assume that he can't, even in ESB, right?

Have you seen the movies? And does it seem like the Clones guns shoot lasers faster than the Remote Droid does? And while the remote's don't fire repeatedly they fire frequently, often a shot per second.

And we have no information at all about that Jedi. He could be a Padawan, or a Knight who was crippled during the Clone Wars, or even a cook who, when the temple was attacked, picked up the lightsaber of a fallen Jedi in a feeble attempt to save or he just wanted to fight back. We don't know.

They sense it with the Force or see it, and of course they know what a grenade is, their being trained in all area's of combat and learning about war, so yes, I, too, I'm positive that they'd know wtf it is.

I'd like to see the proof that they'd be damn near impossible to block besides pure speculation.

If you were firing at a Jedi who had his upper body protected and only his legs were open wouldn't you shoot at his legs?

One bullet, yes, what's the difference, it's not like the speed or accuracy is any different.

Did I ever say he was hit from behind? No? Okay then.

No, they would practice against remote's because if they fail they just get stung by a non-fatal laser bolt as opposed to being killed.

Twelve thousand, I dunno, maybe more, maybe less, we never find out. As for Kashyyk, we see less than a minute of battle so how can you judge from that? On geonosis their mainly facing the same direction. Watch AOTC.

Watch the Battle of Geonosis.

There could have been enemies coming from behind and they'd never have known. In ROTS when they atatcked the Temple they were all scattered because they didn't all come in the same entrance, did they?

They don't know where the Youngling's are so I don't know how exactly they would dispatch a thousand to just march through the temple and find them.

Well, one ten year old killed about 5 of your trained soldiers so I don't see why a few 4-8 year old's combined couldn't take out one! Unless Zett is as strong as like 30 Younglings.

And pulled out a second one. Also, I never said Luke was better than Chewie, Chewie's a far better shot it'd be stupid to not give Chewie a blaster.

If Bail came again another Youngling or group of Younglings could do the same thing, or else get them from behind while their attacking the other Jedi.

And Zett's wasn't? A Jedi doesn't get a real lightsaber until he/she is 12 years old, and as Zett was only 10 he would have either used his training lightsaber against the Clones or picked up a real lightsaber off the body of a dead Jedi.

Yes, he is exceptional, but even if he's twice as strong as a normal 10 year old Jedi then a normal one'd be able to kill 2-3 Clones. I doubt a 10 year old would be alot better than an 8 year old but even if the 10 year old was twice as strong then the 8 year old could kill at least one troop. So it seems as if your suggesting that Zett was about 15 times stronger than the avg. 10 year old Jedi.

Doesn't matter, that comment in your last post was still unnecessary.
And I never said he did use his lightsaber,all I said is he killed quite a few troopers on the Death Star.

darthsith19
Never said he used a lightsaber to drop the troopers. From now on would you like me to use the word "blaster" every time I talk about Luke dropping troopers on the Death Star? I assumed we all knew he used a blaster and not a lightsaber on the DS so it was unneeded to bring it up.

The point is he is on the same level that the Youngling's are in his Jedi training.

Nice retort. I already answered this. They wouldn't be able to scan the area because they would be to busy trying to stay alive.

Yeah, I know, so many different possibilities, all which include the Youngling's taking some troopers with them when, or should I say if, they die.

You know, maybe I wasn't repkying to that part. Maybe I was replying to the part that I quoted right before I said that, you ever think of that? This part:


Yes, a small one, but then again, Sorgo usually debated some at first before reverting to totally using insults.

It was the way you interpreted it. I never said he used a lightsaber and never meant it to sound as if he did, since we all know that he did not use a lightsaber during that part of the movie.

Where did I say he used a blaster?

Advent, we all know that Luke sued a blaster! But from now on, just to make you happy, every time I talk about Luke on the DS I'll use the phrase "blaster" in my sentance. Okay? Happy now? or are you just going to start bitching about something else?

Did I ever say the Younglings would be able to use the lasers as good as the Clone Trooeprs do? Don't recal ever saying that, please tell me if I did.

They don't know how to point a gun at someone? Interesting.

I see. Just like Sorgo.

Just point it at the troopers, there's a chance it'll hit them, or at least distract them so anotehr Jedi can kill the trooper, it's not that hard.

Um, Anakin did it in Dark Rendezvous. Quinlan Vos does it, Ferus Olin uses blasters.

Because they know it's their best chance of killing Clones.

Meaning Luke was no stronger than a Youngling was, yet he just picked up a gun and knew how to use it.

So I havn't made a valid response, have I? I've replied to every thing you've said, and you reply to 1/2 of mine by saying their bullshit, which is something that Sorgo would do. Maybe next time I respond to your arguements I'll just say 1/2 of them are bullshit and then you can see how annoying it is.

Not surprised to hear that from you, you never liked me, and your a fan of the Clones.

I'd love to see your proof.

So your saying every trooper in the temple will have another trooepr watching his back? Wow, I doubt that will happen in this situation.

Sorry, that was directed ad Advent, not you.

Yeah, prolly not, Advent is betetr than Sorgo but both of them like to throw insults at people.

And if I wanted to I could say I'm a girl and no one would know any different.

You don't? Go back and read what you've posted in the last couple of pages, alot of it is capitalized. Oh, and both you and Sorgo don't like me. Like I said, I don't really think you are the same person but your alot alike.

Advent
Originally posted by darthsith19
You don't? Go back and read what you've posted in the last couple of pages, alot of it is capitalized.

Show me where any words are in capitals that don't deserve to be, or are just random. The only thing in capitals is stuff like this, "You. Are. An. Idiot. DS."

And of course, it's after a period, are you not suppose to capitalize words? Yeah, jackass. Btw, I don't randomly capitalize words. IKC has done that exact thing before, am I IKC? Is IKC now Sorgo?



When did I ever say I dislike you? I just said you make ridiculous claims, spew bullshit, and the like. I say that to Darth Sexy, do I dislike him, too? I say that to Rampant, do I dislike him, too? I even say that to Medvock - do I dislike him, too?



The only thing you've came up with is that I insult. I guess IKC, Illustrious, Nai, Traya, Count Kent, Numan, Blak Fox, and myself are all one single person. Is that right?

Just some miscellaneous bullshit I thought I'd respond to. The rest will come tomorrow.

Null ARC Avis
Originally posted by darthsith19

'The point is he is on the same level that the Youngling's are in his Jedi training.'

and when did luke use the force or a lightsaber on the DS? he didnt because he didnt think he could use it well enough to take down STs.


'Not surprised to hear that from you, you never liked me, and your a fan of the Clones.'


that is right. i like the clones because they are STRONG.

'I'd love to see your proof.'


Luke said he could hit a wamprat from some very far distance in ANH.

'So your saying every trooper in the temple will have another trooepr watching his back? Wow, I doubt that will happen in this situation. '


No but they will use something called MILITARY STRATAGY that was massed into their brain from birth.

Quinlan_Vos
Yeah, but you can't consider Luke as a youngling since he was 20 years old. There is a differnce between a 20-year-old using a gun and a 6-year-old.

jollyjim311
Yeah, there's a difference between Luke, a 20 year old who has used guns before and is using a small rifle, barely bigger than a pistol, and a six year old using this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Clonewars_trooper_800.jpg#file

Also, the Jedi will tell the younglings to hide. They are almost a non-factor, and certainly won't join the initial fight.

Quinlan_Vos
Yes the younglings won't fight until the Temple is in dire, dire, dire need. During Operation Knightfall, Jocasta Nu told the Younglings to hide, not fight.

darthsith19
So you just call people who you don't dislike jackasses? Strange.

You insult in the same way that Sorgo does. I highly doubt that you are Traya, as she still comes and posts every once in a while. True, your posts are long like Nai's but I never really bothered to read his long posts, unless they were directed to me, which was rare. Numan only insulted the Antediluvian, not everybody. And I already admitied that I never really thought you were Sorgo, but you are alot like him.


In his T-16 Skyhopper, not wuth a blaster!

Yeah but if neither have used a gun before the difference isn't much.

Don't Clones also carry smaller guns on them?

Unless they have to in order for the Jedi to win.

kamikz
Even if it is a average 20 year old with a gun vs an average 6 year old with a gun, the 20 year old should win...

He is more intelligent, he is more experienced, he has the better mentality, he should have better marksmanship, even if neither have used it, he should be more quick learned that is.
He is also in much better physical condition than the 6 year old....

Null ARC Avis
Originally posted by darthsith19

In his T-16 Skyhopper, not wuth a blaster!


It is called aiming in general. if you just pick up a gun dont expect to hit a MOVING target. sure anyone can shot, but can they aim? can they think ahead and move ahead? i have been playing BF2 for a while and it is still hard for me to hit a moving target. And that is with a weightless controller. give me an assult rifle and start running in zig-zags. you will live for a long time.

Lyoko Saver
think about it clones have armour desighned to hamper blaster fire so a a child barely using the force with a toy saber atking a clone with a blaster not to mention the clone has fought for over 2 years and he has back up yea the youngling will really win also all the other jedi r busy not getting killed to go help some little kids

Borbarad
Originally posted by Advent
When have we seen them block blaster bolts from Clone troopers again? Never? Awesome. When have we seen them block repeated blaster fire from trained soldiers again? Never? Awesome.

The deflection of blaster bolts is the first thing they learn. Aside of this Younglings are between 0 and 13 years old and are trained for their entire lifes (at least from sixth month of their lives on).

How would they not be able to block blasters, huh ? Luke could do that after 30 seconds of instruction by Obi-Wan. And we see younglings doing it blind in AotC (even if it was fire from remote droids).



Who actually cares ? You have six Younglings dealing with one Clone Trooper. And the first blaster bolt that is redirected kills the Clone who's shooting while the first lightsaber hit will strike them down. So please tell me how one Clone is going to take down 6 Younglings.



You might simply think about this. In Order 66 most Jedi are shot from behind by troops completely outnumbering them. The guy in the temple. Yes...weapon shots with velocity above speed of light coming from one yard away from them....think about it.



Because we still have a 6 on 1 situation here that favors the younglings. How is a Clone using a grenade while being cut into pieces by 6 lightsaber wielding opponents or force pushed around like a ragdoll or having his weapon pulled out of his hand ? Not to mention that the Younglings can just throw grenades back using the force.



Again 6 VS 1. And there is no difference between blocking fire from a remote droid or from a clone.



They know where the shot is going to hit (basic foresight). If untrained Anakin is capable of doing this I don't see why people with some years or more than a decade of training should be unable to do it.



Wow 5 clones are firing at him and he still manages to kill two of them before he dies - and this is not even talking about the fact that Ki-Adi had a limited coordination so he's possibly one of the worst lightsaber users in the entire order.



1,000 Clones would die against 6,000 Younglings. Hell...I doubt that even with equal numbers the clones would be able to take down the younglings.



These "kids" are trained for their entire lives in handling lightsabers and using the force. We are not talking about your average kid here that enjoys playing with toys but about the youngest members of an order of elite warriors.



No. They are lightsabers with their power adjusted with can easily be turned to "deadly" and then have the same property than a normal lightsaber. Read Shadow Hunter. Or watch ROTS were Zett with his "training saber" tools the Clone Troopers.



Yeah. I'm perfectly sure somebody that lives in a freaking order of warriors DURING a full scale war going on will not know some basic tactics and of course they don't have any advantage because they know the inside of the temple in contrary to the attacking force.



How would ten troopers be able to take out fifty younglings, given that they would most likely even fail in a one on one ?

The Jedi win this fight...sorry to say that but this is what's going to happen.

Sith'ari
'and this is not even talking about the fact that Ki-Adi had a limited coordination so he's possibly one of the worst lightsaber users in the entire order'

laughing laughing

I don't know why, but that just made me lol. Not that I think it's wrong or anything.

Quinlan_Vos
Then how did Anakin overcome 6000 or whatever how many younglings? They could have overwhelmed him 1000 to 1, but they are too weak. According to your reasoning, 1000 younglings can kill 1000 elite clones. Therefore, is Anakin more powerful 1000 elite Clone troopers? I don't think so.

Even though I said the Jedi would win orignially, they will lose now.
In Geonosis, 212 Jedi were slain because they used Niman, which is the primary form for most of the order. And using that form, they were defeated, and that was to droid fire!!!!

So, an army of very skilled marksmen (the clones) can easily kill Jedi Knights, and they would destroy the Younglings.

Borbarad
Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
Then how did Anakin overcome 6000 or whatever how many younglings? They could have overwhelmed him 1000 to 1, but they are too weak. According to your reasoning, 1000 younglings can kill 1000 elite clones. Therefore, is Anakin more powerful 1000 elite Clone troopers? I don't think so.

Because arbitrary numbers used for the purpose of a KMC versus fight mean jack shit for ROTS. Anakin did kill the numbers in the Council Room as far as we know and that were how many ? 6 ? Who did completely thrust him as well ?



And more bullshit. They were outnumbered 100 or 1000 to 1 by the droids. Something that is not the case here and aside of this the Geonosians had weapons that couldn't be blocked with a lightsaber. And you are ignoring the fact that most of that Jedi were ambushed and killed "behind the scenes" by Grievous...



As easily as they killed Yoda and Obi-Wan in a 10 on 2 when the two Jedi where trying to reach the Jedi Temple ? Uh-hu.

We have 12,000 Clones vs:
2000 Jedi Knights
500 Jedi Masters
3500 Padawans
6000 younglings

kamikz
Meant for Quinlan Vos.
Uh....Since when did Anakin face a thousand younglings head on? In that room he went into, there were around 6 kids or something.

Lyoko Saver
"These "kids" are trained for their entire lives in handling lightsabers and using the force. We are not talking about your average kid here that enjoys playing with toys but about the youngest members of an order of elite warriors."

dude lets see some thing
younlings trained since 6 months for 6-13 years (depends on age)
clones trained since the second the exit the pod for roughly 20 years, 2 years off battle hardening

i think the clones havce a little more training/expereince here

jollyjim311
Originally posted by Borbarad
Who did completely thrust him as well ?

... sick

Null ARC Avis
lolllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllololololollol
sick!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

darthsith19
Ah, glad to see there's a good debator here siding with me. Glad to see you, Borbarad! smile

So, according to you, one Clone who has been training for 20 years will be able to take out AOTC Anakin since he's only been training for 10 years just because the Clone has more years of training. Interesting. Also note that the Clones of ROTS have only been training for 12-13 years, and that's only if they were in the first batch of Clones created, so not alot longer than some of the Younglings.

Sith Lord Windu
borbarad, your a hypocrite. you say that 6 younglings can take out a clone with the force then you say that a jedi master who is on the council is killed because he has limited co-ordination. is it me or does that sound a bit like a contradiction?

ki would be more in tune with the force and a better swordsman than a 4-8 year old youngling, so how are even 6 going to take down a clone who WILL have backup, they would work (most realistically) in a group or four or 6, that way they can wipe out jedi and offer defense against ambush.

the fact is that younglings dont use real lightsabers, they use training sabers to get used to bloking bolts.

the remote training droids dont fire as fast and as powerfully as a war-harderned clone would. thier balsters can punch holes through people.

the younglings would be told to hide as they are most likely to survive and preseve the order, afterall the jedi aren't going to send in untrained younglings who dont even have masters to fight, thats like sending 8 year old kids to fight in iraq or something. it doesn't work.

the last thing is that obi-wan and yoda survived because thier a little more skilled and wise than a youngling and have been through the enitre clone wars, also not every youngling is as powerufl as others, is that padawan on the bail organa scence as powerful as yoda?

look at the geonosian areana, all the jedi who died used the form niman, which in case you didn't know, is an all round form but you dont specialise in any other skill like deflection (the bull looking jedi who jumps onto the balcony in ATOC uses niman and look what happened to him by the clones donor (and proberlly weapons instructor and trainer). only the important charactors of the saga survived, the other 190 died. so based on that fact, guess who many jedi in the temple will use niman, including younglings, who btw, lean shii-cho, which is for disarming an opponent, not for deflecting blaster bolts like soresu.

Lyoko Saver
Originally posted by darthsith19
Ah, glad to see there's a good debator here siding with me. Glad to see you, Borbarad! smile

So, according to you, one Clone who has been training for 20 years will be able to take out AOTC Anakin since he's only been training for 10 years just because the Clone has more years of training. Interesting. Also note that the Clones of ROTS have only been training for 12-13 years, and that's only if they were in the first batch of Clones created, so not alot longer than some of the Younglings.

1. i forgot about the growth acceleration thing
2. the 501'st is the most elite legion in the army
3. i said they had more experience in battle
4. i nvr said they would win
5. but i nvr said they would lose

Quinlan_Vos
It doesn't mean shit, you say 1000 Younglings can beat 1000 501st Commandos. Even if he wasn't attacked by 1000 Younglings right away, in ROTS you see a huge corridor full of dead Younglings. If so poweful are they, then why did not storm Vader.



Bogus. Anakin already has Jedi-like reflexes (remarked by Qui-Gon himself). And he is not some ordinary Jedi. Obi-Wan just had to teach him the Force and how to swing a lightsaber (he already has the reflexes). Third, how are the clones of ROTS been training only for 12 years? Then what did they do for 7 years year of their life, twidling their fingers laughing out loud They have been training for life.




Correct.


The point is the Younglings are not really going to do anything except hide and try to escape. Even if they might block some clone fire, they will be overwhelmed. The 501st will work with one another well enough to destroy theh Younglings. I am not saying the Younglings are useless, but they cannot fight like a Jedi or even a Padawan.

Borbarad
Originally posted by Sith Lord Windu
borbarad, your a hypocrite. you say that 6 younglings can take out a clone with the force then you say that a jedi master who is on the council is killed because he has limited co-ordination. is it me or does that sound a bit like a contradiction?

Do you see any difference between getting backstapped on the battle field by your own troups and getting ambushed in your own Headquarter by an enemy army ?



You didn't get the picture, dude. Advent did say that there would be 1000 Clones going to face 6000 younglings. So...6 on 1 in favor for the force using and lightsaber wielding faction here.



The fact that this is bullshit as I have proven doesn't mean anything to you, correct ?



Yes. Because energy beams tend to have so much mass, correct ?



You are again comparing your typical child to people who are trained for such situations from childhood on.



Obi-Wan was possibly the Jedi with the smallest force potential as he was almost singled out from the Order because of that fact. So what ?



You again are ignoring the fact that they didn't die because they used Niman but because of the fact that they were horribly outnumbered by battle droids. And please act as if only Soresu users can block blasters - hilarious. I guess this is why we have seen Kit Fisto (form I user) doing it, correct ?

Borbarad
Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
It doesn't mean shit, you say 1000 Younglings can beat 1000 501st Commandos. Even if he wasn't attacked by 1000 Younglings right away, in ROTS you see a huge corridor full of dead Younglings. If so poweful are they, then why did not storm Vader.

Whoopie. Because they recognized Vader as their own great hero of the Clone Wars and didn't even think that he would possibly attack them. Aside of this...a huge corridor full of dead Younglings ? Yeah...I only see some people lying in each Corridor, most of them Padawans and Knights because they told the Younglings to hide in the Council Chamber where Anakin slaughtered most of them. And you seem to forget that this was Anakin + almost 10,000 Clones vs the remains of the Jedi (50 % of 10,000 people from TPM alive, most of them not on Coruscant at this time).

Here we do have the situation of equal numbers between Jedi and Clones which did - sorry to say - never happen before.



Somebody seems to have forgotten about the altered aging process of the Clones, huh ? It's precisely said that they are trained for 10 years and then they received additional 2 years of experience during the Clone Wars. So 12 years pretty much nails it.

And wow...You think that the regular Jedi child doesn't possess Jedi-like reflexes ?



Yes. I suppose 6-12 years of force training and lightsaber practice don't mean jack shit and they will just be slaughtered. Oh wait...did you read "Unknown Soldier" where a mere Youngling (Allara) manages to force pull one of Grievous lightsabers out of his hand ? I guess when they can disarm some cyborg with a mechanical grip, disarming clones is not beyond them.

Not that anybody really cares because 6,000 Masters, Knights and Padawans are pretty much enough to deal with 12,000 Clones...

darthsith19
Originally posted by Lyoko Saver
1. i forgot about the growth acceleration thing
2. the 501'st is the most elite legion in the army
3. i said they had more experience in battle
4. i nvr said they would win
5. but i nvr said they would lose
Fine then, they have more experience in battle and more years of training that APOTC Anakin does so I suppose, according to your logic, one 501st Clone > AOTC Anakin, right?

Lyoko Saver
501st most elite legion
anikin most force potential
obi wan 3rd strongest dude in order (i think)
yoda strongest dude in order
younglins jedi in trainin

Sith Lord Windu
Originally posted by Borbarad
Do you see any difference between getting backstapped on the battle field by your own troups and getting ambushed in your own Headquarter by an enemy army ?



You didn't get the picture, dude. Advent did say that there would be 1000 Clones going to face 6000 younglings. So...6 on 1 in favor for the force using and lightsaber wielding faction here.



The fact that this is bullshit as I have proven doesn't mean anything to you, correct ?



Yes. Because energy beams tend to have so much mass, correct ?



You are again comparing your typical child to people who are trained for such situations from childhood on.



Obi-Wan was possibly the Jedi with the smallest force potential as he was almost singled out from the Order because of that fact. So what ?



You again are ignoring the fact that they didn't die because they used Niman but because of the fact that they were horribly outnumbered by battle droids. And please act as if only Soresu users can block blasters - hilarious. I guess this is why we have seen Kit Fisto (form I user) doing it, correct ?

1. no becuase ki adi was able to stop... look at them... realise what thier about to do and then defend against five troops. and he is better than six younglings. even if they were able to take out one clone then they would have to deal with his "team"(other people watching his back, as he watches thiers). it doesn't work.

2. same as point 1.

3. the only bullshit thing here is your fanboyism towards younglings. the only difference if all the jedi were there is that they would take longer to die as theirs more of them.

4. energy beams from remote droids are different from blaster bolts from a rifle. for example, imagine being punched by a 10 year ols kid if your about twenty. now imagine being hit by a car traveling at about 30mph. it an exaggeration but it works. remote droids are differrent because they are designed for practice, rifles are designed to kill people. if you wathc it when ki dies, his saber is pushed back on the shot before hes hit. i cant imagine a youngling remote training droid doing that. and if it could push an adult's saber (a council member who wouldn have had years of experience) back then what chance would a youngling have of defending a bolt back. none.

5. point is partly the same as above. to add thorugh, a youngling isn't going to be compared to a jedi knight or even padawan. the fact is that they would, logically, be studying about history and practicing against toy energy bolts, not against battle-hardened soldiers who have baster rifles that would blast wholes through them.

6. i was pointing out that a jedi master is better than a yougling and even thinking that a training saber would do anything to a war hardened troop with heavy armour is stupid. they may have been trained from near birth but thier not going to be training physically against a war hardened soldier. they may be learning how to use the force and reading about history and other topics that relate to thier jedi life but they wouldn't have even been or thier first mission yet.

7. they were out numbered but ALL the jedi who studided niman and went into the arena DIED, mace and the others survived because they learned other techniques. search it up on the net for more info and you'll see im right. i wasn't trying to say that only soresu users can deflect bolts but its the best example as the form was designed to deflect bolts. other users can but niman users arn't very good at it.

8. stop saying correct, it gives the impression that your unsure about your point and need the reasurrance of other people to justify your point.

9. YOUNGLINGS WOULD BE KILLED AS THIER TOLD TO HIDE BECAUSE THEY CANT FIGHT, THIER 4-8, WOULD YOU SEND 4-8 YEAR OLDS WHO KNOW HOW TO USE A GUN TO IRAQ?

Borbarad
Originally posted by Sith Lord Windu
1. no becuase ki adi was able to stop... look at them... realise what thier about to do and then defend against five troops. and he is better than six younglings. even if they were able to take out one clone then they would have to deal with his "team"(other people watching his back, as he watches thiers). it doesn't work.

2. same as point 1.


How about trying to use some logic here, dude ?
Ki-Adi was facing 5 or 6 Clones - not one.
He still managed to take down 2 of those Clones.

So you are not arguing that Ki-Adi would perform better than 6 younglings but more likely 30 younglings (since that would, in the example, be the number of Younglings being assigned to 5 clones).

Given a "team" of Clone Troopers you would have 6 younglings per teammember attacking.



Thanks for ignoring the point. The Younglings wield lightsabers that have their energy levels adjusted to a non-lethal beam which can be adjusted easily. So...you original point that they don't have any chance because of using "training sabers" was bullshit. And no ad hominem argument will cover that.



If you don't have any idea about basic physics why the hell do you bother to argue them with me, huh ? An energy beam doesn't have kynetical energy because they don't possess mass. So how do they exactly "push back" lightsabers ? By your logic you shouldn't be able to switch the light in your room on without getting pushed to the ground by the vast impact energy of the light rays. Yeah...it makes so much sense.

What the younglings have to do here is basically putting a mirror in the way of a sun beam - the destructive force of blaster bolts is only released when they impact on a surface which isn't able to deflect them. See the scene in ANH when Luke and his friends are trapped inside the waste compactor and Han fires his blaster.



Is it so hard to get the point ? We see them being trained in deflecting energy beams with their lightsabers in AotC. This training is only used to enable them to sense / predict that blaster fire. Luke was able to deflect some three-shot-sequence from his training droid after 1 minute of training. How are the younglings going to not be able to do the same, even if the weapon is a real blaster (see above).

It simply doesn't matter what weapons are used against them (as long as they can be deflected with a lightsaber) or how good the aiming of the weapon users is (since they can predict where the next shot is going to hit them).

I do see that a single clone might be able to gun down a single Youngling. But how is one clone going to take six younglings down attacking him at once when they all are capable of deflecting his shots, all are capable of cutting him into pieces and all are able to simply pull the weapon out of his hand via force pull ?



Yes. Because you have chosen to ignore the fact, that they can simply turn their so called "training sabers" into real (only shorter) lightsabers by turning some button on the hilt. Read Shadowhunter. Kenobi descripes a training fight between him and Darsha and precisely states how it works (turning the energy level of the blade down so that it doesn't harm people any longer).



Wow. Are you simply ignoring the fact that there training includes basic blade fighting (see form I description) as well as blaster bolt deflection ? Are you simply ignoring the fact that a Clone Trooper has zero defence against force use ? Yes. I guess you do.



You are again pulling assumptions out of your ass. The Jedi using Niman are not as good in blaster deflection like people using Soresu, Djem So, or Vaapad. Yes. That doesn't mean that they completely suck at it. If you take some look at the background action in the arena you will see what I mean.



Learn how to type, dude...
And the fitting question would be if I would allow 4-13 year old kids that are trained for combat for their entire lives to defend their home against an invading force. Kids that possess the power to disarm opponents with a flick of their frist, have some basic foresight abilities, can dodge or deflect bullets and - on top of this - will die anyway no matter if they fight or not. Answer: Yes I would possibly send superhuman children with that abilities into battle if I know that they will die no matter what they do.

And if that premise isn't given (meaning in this case the Knights, Masters and Padawans will do it on their own) than there is no reason to discuss the skill of the Younglings.

Lyoko Saver
STOP USING A BUNCH OF LOGICAL SCEINTIFIC FACTS AND NUMBERS TO DESCRPE STUFF IN A SCI FI UNIVERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

thank you

this messege brought to u by

LEEEEEEEEEEEEEEROOOOOOOOOOOOOOY JEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENKINS!!!!

Quinlan_Vos
The Clones will win, here's why:

4000 Clones can take care of the Jedi Masters if 1 Jedi Master kills 4 clones before dying. 500 * 4= 2000 losses
So the Masters will be eradicated.

12000-2500= 10000 Clone Troopers remaining

5000 Clones can take care of the Jedi Knights if 1 Jedi kills 1.5 (though not possible in reality, I am taking average between 1 and 2) before dying. 3500 * 1.5 = 5250

10000-5250= 4750

2000 Clones can take care of the Padawans who'll probably kill 2000 Clones before dying.

4750-2000= 2750

!!!! Now this is only the results with the 501st using their blasters !!!!

Since the Clones have heavy artilerry and such, they'll probably kill off the Jedi faster with less casualties.

So in the end, I draw an estimate that 3500 501st will remain to engage the Younglings.

3500 501st Elite Clone Troopers vs. 6000 Younglings

Personally, I take my chances with the Clones but Borbarad says otherwise.

Besides, with Vader, the difference won't be that great. I believe that during Operation Knightfall, Anakin probably would have killed around 100 Jedi plus the Younglings. This is not that great of a difference, so the result would and should remain the same. The Jedi get exterminated though they put a good fight.

Lyoko Saver
Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
The Clones will win, here's why:

4000 Clones can take care of the Jedi Masters if 1 Jedi Master kills 4 clones before dying. 500 * 4= 2000 losses
So the Masters will be eradicated.

12000-2500= 10000 Clone Troopers remaining

5000 Clones can take care of the Jedi Knights if 1 Jedi kills 1.5 (though not possible in reality, I am taking average between 1 and 2) before dying. 3500 * 1.5 = 5250

10000-5250= 4750

2000 Clones can take care of the Padawans who'll probably kill 2000 Clones before dying.

4750-2000= 2750

!!!! Now this is only the results with the 501st using their blasters !!!!

Since the Clones have heavy artilerry and such, they'll probably kill off the Jedi faster with less casualties.

So in the end, I draw an estimate that 3500 501st will remain to engage the Younglings.

3500 501st Elite Clone Troopers vs. 6000 Younglings

Personally, I take my chances with the Clones but Borbarad says otherwise.

Besides, with Vader, the difference won't be that great. I believe that during Operation Knightfall, Anakin probably would have killed around 100 Jedi plus the Younglings. This is not that great of a difference, so the result would and should remain the same. The Jedi get exterminated though they put a good fight.

the clones should locate the younglings then bomb and shel the crap out of it....on second thought just bomb and shell the whole freakin temple

Sith Lord Windu
borbarad, you cant compare real life to a sci-fi MOVIE. it doesn't work. the fact is that the younglings would get killed reguardless of who many they can kill, about 0 IMO. but thats just me.

Borbarad
Originally posted by Lyoko Saver
STOP USING A BUNCH OF LOGICAL SCEINTIFIC FACTS AND NUMBERS TO DESCRPE STUFF IN A SCI FI UNIVERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

thank you

this messege brought to u by

LEEEEEEEEEEEEEEROOOOOOOOOOOOOOY JEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENKINS!!!!

Thanks for you unwanted and meaningless comment. Do you actually remember wha the "SCI" in "SCI-FI" stands for ? Yes ?



I'm comparing the in universe properties of blaster bolts to the - damn it - in universe properties of blaster bolts. The "mirror and sun beams" stuff was just some example. Obviously blaster bolts don't leave dents (or virtually any signs) when hitting an object that deflects them - hence no kynetic energy. You can argue that back and forth and still blocking some Clone blaster rifles is not harder than doing the same thing with a remote droid...

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
The Clones will win, here's why:

4000 Clones can take care of the Jedi Masters if 1 Jedi Master kills 4 clones before dying. 500 * 4= 2000 losses
So the Masters will be eradicated.

What ruin the versus forum has fallen too?

What makes you think a Jedi Master can only take 4 clones? If you look at Geonosis, the 200 Jedi Master and Knights defeated thousands of droids (lets make it an even 15,000 droids although it was probably more). Even if a clone were 5 times better then a droid, each Jedi Master can take at least 15 clones. 15,000 / 5 = 3,000. 3,000 / 200 = 15. That means 7,500 clones are gone right there.

Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
12000-2500= 10000 Clone Troopers remaining

Actually there are 7,000 clone troopers remaining. 12,000 - 7,500 = 4,500.

Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
5000 Clones can take care of the Jedi Knights if 1 Jedi kills 1.5 (though not possible in reality, I am taking average between 1 and 2) before dying. 3500 * 1.5 = 5250

This is ridiculous. Jedi Knights defeated dozens of droids a piece at Geonosis. I would say that each Jedi could take at minimum 5 clones. That means the clones win before they even get past the Knights.

The Clones get pwned.

Darth Kreiger
Where are you getting these 202002425345 numbers from?
Legion = 5000 men (501st Legion is what did this)
The Temple only had maybe 500 Jedi, 1000 tops

The Jedi wern't ready, and the clones used Crescent/Circle shaped lines around the Jedi to make them block from all sides

Edit:Oh the title

Quinlan_Vos
Very funny




Well then how did the Clones win then? Basically, this is the Raid on the Jedi Temple without Lord Vader. They should still win, shouldn't they. I mean Vader probably killed somewhere from 50 to 200 Jedi. I don't get it confused

http://starwars.wikia.com/images/1/16/Jedi_Purge.jpg



Please, no paradoxes stick out tongue

And the clones have heavy artillery. They had:

Assault Ships
Star Destroyers
AT-RT Walkers
Assault Transport
and all sorts of troopers, elites, assasins, sharpshooters, etc.

You guys decide the winner.

Borbarad
Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
Well then how did the Clones win then? Basically, this is the Raid on the Jedi Temple without Lord Vader. They should still win, shouldn't they. I mean Vader probably killed somewhere from 50 to 200 Jedi. I don't get it confused

http://starwars.wikia.com/images/1/16/Jedi_Purge.jpg


Please have a look at the starting post of this thread.
There are now more Jedi in the temple than did even exist in the time of TPM (12,000) much less in times of RotS.

So this is not the raid on the temple without Vader but 12,000 Clones vs 12,000 Jedi Masters, Knights, Padawans and Younglings. And the Clones would be destroyed.



And used none of this in the assault on the temple as well as the thread starter grants them none of these things. Hence they are pwned.

Advent
Originally posted by Null ARC Avis
men, get in your vehicles, arm the tanks. we only have 500 of them, dont waste any! a lightsaber will cut a hole right through the top of them.
Commander Appo right before Operation Knightfall.

Null ARC Avis
solders, i have called for backup. 10000 shock troopers will come with 300 tanks momentarily. Keep fighting!
Commander Appo

darthsith19
Well, with the addition of ten thousand shock troopers the Jedi might go down, it all depends on how many soldiers were still alive when Appo gave the command.

Null ARC Avis
that brings the total of our current troops to 19,000. The jedi only have 2000 younglings left and the number of padawans has also been severly dimminished. they still have a formitabal number of knights and masters left though. and *buzz buzz* *static*
commander Appo

darthsith19
So 19 thousand Clones (plus ground verhicles) to two thousand Younglings and approx. 500 Padawans, 400 Masters and 1800 Knights, I'm thinking. That's 4700 Jedi so about 4 Clones per Jedi plus ground vehicles. I could definately see a Master or Knight being able to take out 4 but only a few of the Padawans probably could and none of the Younglings. I'm thinking the Younglings combined could take out maybe 400 troopers, 500 Padawans could maybe take out 1500, 400 Masters probably could take out 3000 plus some ground vehicles and the Knights perhaps could take out 14 thousand troops. So that's a total of 18900 troops. So IMO this is very, very close. If there are any strong Masters there - Yoda, Mace, Kenobi - The Jedi could probably do this, but if all the Masters (and Knights there) are just avg. and there's nobody strong there the Clones probably win but there are but only few survivors and perhaps one ground vehicle left.

Advent
So, one knight takes out equal to (rounded) the amount of one Jedi master? If you don't round it (which is impossible, but still) one knight does slightly more damage than one master in terms of defeating soldiers, not vehicles. How does that compute?

Borbarad
I don't get how you want to solve this thread using math.

1)
The Jedi Commanders in charge of the temple (including the Gate Keeper) were all killed by Anakin. I doubt the Clones would even manage to get inside the temple before somebody closes the gates.

2)
The Jedi temple had some shielding system that was - again - deactivated by Anakin. I can see some huge number of clones getting killed if they have to breach through that personally.

3)
During the Raid on the Temple they were only "hundrets" of Jedi in the temple and we had almost a Legion (9.216 Clones) + Vader attacking them, yet still many of the Clones died. So...even while outnumbering the Jedi at least 10 to 1 and while having the support of a Sith Lord the Clones suffered heavy casualties.

So how can they even hope to win this battle if it starts with equal numbers (with reinforcements roughly 2 on 1 advantage of the Clones, 4 on 1 if we exclude the Younglings) and they have everything in their way that was taken down by Anakin/Vader in the original fight ?

Coleman Trebor
Because average PT Jedi are extremely underestimated.

Tortoise Herder
OK than. I am sorry to bring this up, but I cannot POSSIBLY get over the moronic arguments used by those who are so confident in the skills of 3-8 year olds in war. And let me lay the line out to you in simple terms so that you people can understand: WAR IS HELL! I notice that you mention that there is a "lethality modifier" on the practice lightsabers. I would like to see proof of that, and I am inclined to believe that you are Bee Essing us, as HAVE YOU EVER BEEN AROUND THREE TO SIX YEAR OLDS!?!!?!?!?! They are inclined to try anything when they are bored. And if the power switch is so easy to access, I can easily see one Youngling going "Hey, John, you know we only use the lowest power level, so why don't I switch it on high and we will see if it hurts you at all?" "Okay Joe." The results are very easy to predict. So, I can see that the Jedi would make it so that only those who know how dangerous this is be able to adjust it.

And than there is the bullcrap about the Younglings being able to overwhelm the clones once the Five-Oh-One get done with the rest of the order. To this I would advise that you watch the opening scene of "Enemy at the Gates." As inaccurate historically as it was (the machineguns to the rear were only used during the backs-to-the-wall order issued by the Politburo, or for Penal Battalions) It shows you the results of trying to take on a better equipped, better trained (though the German conscripts were only marginally better trained), and coordinated defenders. Yes, it is against fortified defenses, but it shows one thing: do not overestimate numbers and underestimate experience. The younglings are CHILDREN FOR CHRISTSAKES! They are not useful in combat and in all probability would be a hinderance rather than a help. Let me illustrate for you what happens when barely trained, unexperienced YOUTH are put into battle.

In mid-late August, of 1944, one of the great Soviet victories of the War in the East, Operation Bagraton, was winding down, as they had stormed across the Ukraine, defeated the Germans and their Hungarian and Romanian allies, and were now inside the prewar Polish border. The Soviets had (for once) killed more Axis than they lost, roughly 4-1 ratio loss, and they had cut off Army Groups North and South from each other. The situation was chaotic, and the Germans needed room to breath. So they deployed a untapped reserve.

On August 24th, roughly a full quarter of the Hitler-Jugend (or Hitler Youth, as they are called in English) that were in Danzig, around 5,000, were woken up, bundled into cars, and driven to Krakow, in the Fascist General Government that was administering part of prewar Poland. Bagraton had been stopped on the gates of Krakow, and fears were that it would restart. The Germans thus sent the Danzig HJ to Krakow. They arrived at an observation outpost that was relativly well defended (having 18 bunkers on the surface and several more beneath the surface) to reenforce the garrison of 200.

They were put under the command of the regular Wehrmacht forces at the outpost, (called by the Germans 'Scheisse Kasten' (translated meaning S*it Box). They were given a Kar98 each, though some were given a MP40 Machine Pistol (of Sub Machine Gun, same difference really), though not with too much ammo. On September 5th, three days after their arrival, a Soviet force of roughly 8,000 strong that was commiting a recon-in-force for a road to Krakow ran into said outpost, and under standing orders to destroy any Axis force they encountered, they attempted to clear it. The artillery they brought with them was the only thing they had, no air support or anything, and so they began shelling the outpost after they had encircled it, cutting off any retreat. The only thing that saved the Germans than was when a large part of the artillery park caught a spark, destroying roughly half the guns, a good deal of the shells, and killing 60 Soviets.

So, once they exausted their shells two days later, they were forced to attack using infantry, as the rain had made it unsuitable for tank combat. So they stormed the are. What happened was very one-sided. By the end of two days hard fighting, the surviving 184 Germans surrendered. The Soviets had lost around 600.

This is keeping in mind a few things: that (A) The Soviets ranged from Regulars to new draftees, (B) the Germans knew the Russians were coming and were in a fortified position, (C) That the most experienced Russian on the scene (a man named Gregor Yusanovich, an arty spotter) had 2 1/6 years of experience, (D) That the HJ were led by regular troops, (E) that weapons training was already initiated by the time they were deployed because (F) these boys were between 13-18. Anywhere from 6 years to over a decade older than the younglings, and that (G) They could cannibalize dropped enemy weapons.

This, of all things, should show that the younglings are not in any shape to resist barring a bloody miracle. The battle hinges on if the older Jedi can either vanquish the Clones completely or at least damage them so severly that the clones are so unbelievably overwhelmed that it does not matter how bad the younglings are.

Also, DarthSith, stop avoiding the questions by saying "oooohhh you HATE me." It makes it look like you are completely unable to debate anything that is even moderatly complex, and it erodes your credibility. Please ANSWER THE POINTS. DIRECTY. AND RATIONALLY.

Council#13
You must be really fast at typing, otherwise you would've been logged out by the time you finished writing that. no expression

Tangible God
He has wonderful grammar too.

General Kenobl
I see Tortoise is quite an expert in World War warfare. Oh yes, this thread is revived again.

In the original attack at the Jedi Temple, there wasn't more than probably a 1000 to 2000 Knights. The whole Jedi Order of the CW is 10,000. This is a lesser number than the given thread number of 12,000. Keep in mind that these are battle hardened Jedi who are also familiar with their Clones.

The Clones will be very hard-pressed against the Jedi.

Mizukage Yoda
Jedi plain and simple

Tortoise Herder
Ok than, Mizukage Yoda, WHY do you feel that the Jedi will win? I cannot 100% say that either side would win, but I wish to hear the REASONS you think that the defenders will beat off the 501st. Borbarad, as well as the rest of you lot, you are forgetting a VEEERRRRYYYY important piece of the equation. The Clones are a regular army, and so it would be more than a little bit likely that they have offboard long range Artillery support, alongside air support, and medicinal teams outside the combat zone. The scenario does not explicitly state this, but it is a reasonable assumption.

I know that a few targets could be destroyed with arty, air, or armor support. I am not sure about the sheilds, but I do believe that a tank (provided it had good coverage by infantry so that once it breaks through it isn't cut through and the crew killed) could break through the gates, and certainly a few Jedi commanders could be killed by men on the ground and by the support units I mentioned.

The Jedi numbers are not as tough as they may appear. The Younglings are going to be very, very useful for target practice by the Clones unless there are all of three clones left. Some of the Padawans are probably not on TPM Obi-Wan level, and while most would be experienced, not all would. The others are going to be more difficult, as they KNOW the clones, but it cuts both throats, does it not? Part of the reason for the success of Order 66 was that the clones for the most part knew the Jedi as well, and they could have a decent idea about what to do. It will be a hard fight, and no matter who comes out on top, there will not be that many of them left.

Blaxican
Your name is Tortoise Herder erm

Tortoise Herder
It is called anonymity. Using a fake nickname so that a PO'ed forum member does not track me down and kill me. You do the same thing, unless your real name is Blaxican, and you had it legally changed from Captain SEX, Blax X, Coleman Trebor, Blaxican Hydra, BlaxicanTroller, KMC Dark Lord, Blaxican Style, Numan2.0, Blaxican_Hydra, RvB]Tucker, and Blaxican_Jedi. And what? Is there something wrong with liking Turtles and Tortoises?

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Tortoise Herder
]And what? Is there something wrong with liking Turtles and Tortoises?

How would you respond if I said yes?

Tortoise Herder
Than someday, somewhere, I will sneak Elizabeth the Cat into your room and she will claw your face off while you are still alive. And than I will bill your family/closest living relation with the bill for my expenses.

Blaxican
Originally posted by Tortoise Herder
It is called anonymity. Using a fake nickname so that a PO'ed forum member does not track me down and kill me. You do the same thing, unless your real name is Blaxican, and you had it legally changed from Captain SEX, Blax X, Coleman Trebor, Blaxican Hydra, BlaxicanTroller, KMC Dark Lord, Blaxican Style, Numan2.0, Blaxican_Hydra, RvB]Tucker, and Blaxican_Jedi. And what? Is there something wrong with liking Turtles and Tortoises?

Actually yes, those all used to be my name.

Tortoise Herder
God have mercy on your friends and family in that case, they learn your new name just in time to watch you change it again. The guys in charge of your Identity at the Census Bureau have probably taken a contract out on you, and that is without going into the trouble you must have the the great and true evil in the universe, the IRS. LOL

Tangible God
His next name will legally be BlaxiBlaster.

overlord
This thrad is now about names. My friends and family know my name si overlard, it would bad idea to change it, they confuse. Better not do it.

Discuss.

Null ARC Avis
i was named after a car renting company.... it is a pretty good one! But, yes, i doubt they have Air Support inside a temple! sure, i gave them tanks and aartillary, and whatnot! whtever stratagy you want for the clones, go ahead.

Tortoise Herder
.O.K., .O.K., as funny as this has been, back on topic. I believe that the Jedi's support, from arty to armor to air support, would have a decisive effect on the battle.

Captain REX
The Jedi didn't have any of that.

Tortoise Herder
No tripe. I said that it was very likely that the CLONES had brought arty, air support, and armor with them, no the Jedi.

Lord Saboteur
Originally posted by Tortoise Herder
No tripe. I said that it was very likely that the CLONES had brought arty, air support, and armor with them, no the Jedi.
Right, and that's why you said this, earlier:


Originally posted by Tortoise Herder
.O.K., .O.K., as funny as this has been, back on topic. I believe that the Jedi's support, from arty to armor to air support, would have a decisive effect on the battle.

Tortoise Herder
Ok, my bad, Note to self, I need to check my posts closer, and not just for spelling and grammer errors, but also for common-sense errors.

Davin Maul
Guys, in the first page someone unwisely tried to state how he would divide up the troops to take each type of Jedi. This is very foolish. First of all, you should always take the most dangerous opponents first. This is the Masters. I would send EVERYONE at them. They can't survive and fight forever. Hell, they aren't even the beastly Masters, they were all killed on planetary missions (Ki Adi and Plo). This leaves the training master which are good, but not on par with Plo and the other good ones. After taking out the Masters you move on to others. I would split them into platoons of 50 each and deal with any jedi left. It doesn't matter if you have 50 against 1 padawan, they are dangerous and the fight will end quickly enough that way that you won't have super heavy causualties.

You don't have to worry about a massive group of jedi to take on say 200 clones anyway, they don't want to group up like that. The best bet for the Jedi is to split into small groups and try sneak their way out. But if I was Appo, I would have some big gun at each exit, entrance and hose anything that came out.

General Kenobl
Why don't you cut the crap and say it's me and I can explain my reasoning to you. And besides, my views on this fight have changed over the course of the thread.

Tortoise Herder
Ok, Sorry, but I have been away for a while.

Anyway, you mention that you doubt that the clones would have air support in the actual academy. Had they been trying to fit the gunships through the front doors. However, you have forgotten that the roof, the walls, and everything else are not made of some invincible super-gel brought down by Thor from Mount Olympus while he was speaking Polish (joke, intentionally inaccurate).

They are made of stones, metal, etc. Now I will not pretend to be an expert on the building materials used in-universe, It is quite easy to imagine that the Clones could knock holes in the roof/walls in the course of their fire-missions, or even for the stated purpose of allowing the flyboys to do their thing (yes this has been done before, like the Serb-Bulgar war of 1885, in the battle of Pirot, the Bularians used arty to blow holes in the roofs of some buildings (even those that were not important) in order to allow the Bulgarian Infantry to attack their Serbian counterparts while having an advantage in firing field and the element of shock.

It is easy to see how they could use the same principles with airpower.

General Kenobl
I love how you add the World War (or any battle actually) aspect into this fight. It makes it have a whole new perspective. You should debate more here.

Darth Leed
has anyone actually read Dark lords, Rise of Vader!???

Even Darth Sidious says that Anakin wasn't needed in the slaughter in the temple.

How the hell are the younglings going to fight experienced soldiers? Can they even block 3 shots from a Z-6 rotary blaster cannon, which fires 166 rounds PER SECOND? Can even Jedi knights or masters block that much?

And a DC15A could blast 50cm holes in ferroconcrete walls. Imagine hitting flesh. IT'd go right through!

And the clones won't be standing around to get hit by deflected blaster bolts, they will be MOVING, and TAKING COVER.

The clones take this

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