balrogs maia?

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vanice
where were we? thefallen544 and I are trying to find proof to the statement that th balrogs and the dragons are maiar. cause many websites say so, but I can't see how they prove it.

Nellinator
Balrogs are Maia.
Dragons are creations of Morgoth and are not Maia.

ESB -1138
Originally posted by vanice
where were we? thefallen544 and I are trying to find proof to the statement that th balrogs and the dragons are maiar. cause many websites say so, but I can't see how they prove it.

Balrogs are Maiar spirits, Dragons aren't. It's in the Silmirallion

thefallen544
Well I am sure the Balrogs are Maia and whilst not to discourage you of your search, it is you who are looking for the proof. I have already put forth my claim.

vanice
Originally posted by ESB -1138
Balrogs are Maiar spirits, Dragons aren't. It's in the Silmirallion

where?

thtadthtshldntb
I am still reading through this myself but it might help you. Note that I am unable to post links yet, so just combine the two parts

http:


//tolkien.slimy.com/essays/TAB.html

Swirly Girl
Originally posted by vanice
where?

Page 23, "Valaquenta". The Balrogs were Maia spirits of fire who were corrupted by Melkor in the beginning.

vanice
well, I still haven't checked the eanglish verson, but the sweadish translations doesn't say so. It only says that balrogs are dreadful spirits of fire sudused by morgoth. and it's in the chapter about the enemy, not about maia. Il'l report back whan I've checked the original text.

vanice
well, I still haven't checked the English version, but the Swedish translations doesn't say so. It only says that balrogs are dreadful spirits of fire seduced by morgoth. and it's in the chapter about the enemy, not about maia. I'll report back when I've checked the original text.

thtadthtshldntb
Well until the ents, elves, dwarves and humans were created (and all the offshots thereof) everything that was not strictly speaking nonsentient flora and fauna was vala or maia.

it_wasn't_me
Page 29 in the Swedish translation of the Silm Vanice. Theres proof that Balrogs are maias.

vanice
No there isn't!

kamikz
Nope, checked page 29 in the Swedish translation, it ain't there. Damn now there are two different sources given which are both false, can't someone give any proof? I'm not really conserned about this matter, it's just that people here seem to take anything they find on the internet as a source...

thtadthtshldntb
Now, you have inspired me to reread the Silmarillion this weekend...

Anyway, before I get there... I'll ask the following question. If the Balrogs are not Maia, what are they?

All of the Ainur (spirits) were created by Illuvatar before Ea was . The Ainur which entered Ea after its creation all became either Valar or Maiar. There were no spirits of any other sort created by Illuvatar other than the Ainur.

The Balrogs are not among the Children of Illuvatar, they certainly were not Ents or Dwarves... what else was there besides those that were created by Illuvatar or the Valar?

It is also clearly stated that the spirts of fire were seduced from existing spirits not created.

So clearly the spirits of fire who became the Balrogs were among the Maiar whom Melkor seduced (presumably from the vast horde of greedy Maiar among Aule's people, lol, it seems like Aule got the worst pick so to speak).

it_wasn't_me
Originally posted by vanice
No there isn't!

For of the maiar many were drawn to his splendour in days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness, and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in middle-earth were called the BALROGS, demons of terror.

kamikz
Where exactly in that line does it say ANYTHING about Maia?

vanice
so a spirit and a maia is the same thing? forget about it...

Originally posted by it_wasn't_me
For of the maiar many were drawn to his splendour in days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness, and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in middle-earth were called the BALROGS, demons of terror.

let me explain this to you.. this only says that many maiar were drawn to morgoth. and OTHERS too. dreadful among THESE spirits were the valaraukar.
so basically this doesn't mean anything.

thtadthtshldntb
other what?

Given the nature of the word other and the construction of the English language both the words many and other refer to the beings identified from the prepositional phrase "For of the maiar".

ESB -1138
Originally posted by vanice
so a spirit and a maia is the same thing? forget about it...



let me explain this to you.. this only says that many maiar were drawn to morgoth. and OTHERS too. dreadful among THESE spirits were the valaraukar.
so basically this doesn't mean anything.

For the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror.


It means that among the Maiar (who are known as spirits) the Valaraukar were also drawn to him aka Balrogs. Maiar Spirits aren't just called spirits.

Belegūr
No one should condemn dragons to not being of the Maiar, as Tolkien himself battled over similar topics later in his life....

Cf. the late essays given at the end of Morgoth's Ring. There, it is found that Tolkien himself had trouble accepting that Morgoth could create anything that was alive after his Fall, and it is thus likely that Glaurung, the first dragon, was a Maia in sauric-form, who then begat his descendents....although this might contradict the fact that Tolkien removed the concept of the Children of the Valar....

Nazgul lord
Originally posted by vanice
where were we? thefallen544 and I are trying to find proof to the statement that th balrogs and the dragons are maiar. cause many websites say so, but I can't see how they prove it.


it says it in the silmarilion that balrogs are maia (i hope i spelt that right)

kamikz
As the other who has said it, prove it, show the exact quote and page! Not saying it is wrong, but no one has actually found a direct statement to it...

thefallen544
Well first I would have to point out that Spirits are different in this case to wraiths and ghosts. I only point this out because it is relevant to my point, Spirits are generally those of the higer order Valar, Maiar and so forth.

In my version of the Sil page 31 under the Headings "Of the Maiar" and "Of the Enemy" under the Chapter "Valaquenta" Account of the Valar and Maiar according to the lore of the Eldar. Just so we are very clear we are talking totally about the higher order, and now I quote.

Regarding Melkor and his followers
"For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards into his service with lies and trecherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-Earth were called Balrogs, demons of terror"

My anaylsis follows
Firstly they are referred directly to as Spirits under chapters and headings concerning directly with the higher order, they were considered Dreadful among Melkors other servants of which we know included Maiar from the text. They thusly would have to be Maiar themselves to better others. Indeed the being known as Gothmog was a Lieutenant of Melkor I do not believe Melkor would have a "lower" being as a Lieutenant.

Lastly "In Middle-Earth were called Balrogs" Tolkein was always very specific about what he wrote and how he wrote it, to me this suggests that they did not come from within Middle-Earth in the first place. The logical place they would have come from would be the same place all Valar and Maiar came from, placing them firmly in the ranks of the Maiar and the higher or "Angelic" order.

Belegūr
Whether or not the Valaraukar/Balrogs were Maiar (that is, "angelic" beings of the same manner of the Valar) should not be debated, as many have noted it is explicitly stated in The Silmarillion (and elsewhere) that they were indeed Maiar.

vanice

ESB -1138
"For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror. Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel."

Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Edlar called Sauron

So why is Sauron considered a spirit but yet with the Balrogs they have to be something over then a maia? It seems that you are just trying to refuse the fact that Balrogs are maia spirits for one reason or another

vanice

thtadthtshldntb
This is like pounding ones head into a brick wall, lol.

That sentence states explicitly that the spirits of fire who became Balrogs, were Maiar.The sentence structure links them that way. Had the "and" right before "others been omitted and the "Others" started a new sentence then it would mean that the "Others" would not be Maiar, but because of the compound, "others" the impersonal pronoun refers back to "For many (of the Maiar)" .

The prepositional phrase "of the Maiar" because of the sentence structure becomes descriptive of of any pronoun that refers back to "the many".
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Furthermore, only Illuvatar can create spirits and until the Children of Iluvatar awaken, there are no other spirits on Ea. All of the spirits existent prior to the waking of the Children, were Ainur who were created prior to the creation of Ea. Of the Ainur who went into the world afterwards, they were all Valar or Maiar.

For the Balrogs not to be Maiar they would have to be Valar or among the Children of Illuvatar, there are no other spirits.

it_wasn't_me
vote vote vote!!!

please

(balrogs are maias)

Draugwen
It's Maiar stick out tongue One Maia, many Maiar^^'
*smart ass look*

On the other matter, I agree with thefallen. I think that the text says clearly the balrogs are Maiar.

it_wasn't_me

Draugwen
Care to translate that for the unknowing person you just addressed? stick out tongue
(I know I'm nit-picky... don't hit me^^')

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